← Fated Mates - Romance Books for Novel People
Fated Mates - Romance Books for Novel People
07.44: Relentless Competence & Fixers in Romance
01:30:18
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- [00:00]
Sarah MacLean
I'm back.
- [00:01]
Jennifer Prokop
You're back.
- [00:02]
Sarah MacLean
How's it been? Well, what's going on? Romance.
- [00:09]
Jennifer Prokop
You're a troublemaker. You, ma', am, are going straight to romance jail.
- [00:19]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah. I've been away for three, for two weeks. And I have seen people all over the country and I've seen Jen, I saw so many, so many firebirds.
- [00:29]
Jennifer Prokop
That's so awesome, isn't it?
- [00:31]
Sarah MacLean
So many people came out. And not just to fade it. Mates Live. People who went to fated mates live then saw me again in Indiana. I mean, what are you doing?
- [00:42]
Jennifer Prokop
What else you gonna do? It's the Midwest in the. Just drive around. They probably came on their riding mower.
- [00:48]
Sarah MacLean
The event in Indiana was real nice. It was with Wild Geese Bookshop. Hi, everybody at Wild Geese, they wanna do a faded Mates live. We've already been to the Midwest. We gotta spread the love. Anyway, I was at Wild Geese Bookshop and it was real nice. It was at an Indianan. Is that a thing? Indianan doesn't feel like a right word. But we're gonna go with it.
- [01:10]
Jennifer Prokop
I'm like, what are you about to say?
- [01:11]
Sarah MacLean
I don't know what's following the Indianan Vineyard.
- [01:15]
Jennifer Prokop
Sure.
- [01:16]
Sarah MacLean
Now here's the thing. I didn't expect to find a vineyard in Indiana.
- [01:21]
Jennifer Prokop
You can grow grapes anywhere, Sarah. Kidding. I don't think that's.
- [01:24]
Sarah MacLean
What do you know about grape growing?
- [01:26]
Jennifer Prokop
Listen, everybody.
- [01:27]
Sarah MacLean
You saw that one movie movie with Keanu Reeves and now you're an expert.
- [01:30]
Jennifer Prokop
I'm actually cracking myself up. The authority with which I said that. Like, you really did. Yeah, I don't. I don't know, actually. I don't know anything about growing anything anywhere. Then that's how it should be.
- [01:40]
Sarah MacLean
Point is, they took me to a grape, a grapevine in Indiana. It was real nice. I was with Rebecca Bowman at the Lily Library. Well, we were in. We were at this vineyard, but Rebecca came from the Lilly Library. They are the head of collections there. And they talked about collecting, which, you know, I love to have people talk about. Because whenever anybody says, hey, you don't have to be a rich asshole to collect books. You can just be a person who loves romance. I always think that's transformative. I love watching people's faces when they hear that and like, input that. So Rebecca did that and then. And it was great. We had a lovely time. One of the things Rebecca said was, in their opinion, some of the coolest collections are collections made by people who love a microtrope. And so what they do is they collect every romance novel With a mustache on the COVID That's a pretty terrific idea. So here's my question, Jen. What microtrope would you collect? Because I know you and I are collecting trailblazers, right? But that's not the same.
- [03:00]
Jennifer Prokop
You know what I thought? What I thought this once would be that it would be really, actually really funny. And it's a good transition. Today's topic, if I actually collected books with real fossils.
- [03:15]
Sarah MacLean
Wow, that is the most Scorpio answer. You're like, I hate fossils. They suck. And here's my collection of this thing that I hate.
- [03:24]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, it really is. It's very me to have thought that.
- [03:27]
Sarah MacLean
And actually deep Scorpio kind of have.
- [03:30]
Jennifer Prokop
Low key started doing some of it a little bit. Like, I'm like, here's the store Robert Roberts book about like an actual paleontologist or whatever. So, yeah, I know. I'm real ashamed of that answer, but it is in fact such a me answer that I'm just gonna go ahead and tell you that. That's. That's. I think it. You know, the other thing I collect, but it's kind of messy and I feel like I have to really, like, be more thoughtful about it, is I have a pretty robust collection of books that are about writing romance because every decade or so someone writes a book that's like. And so a lot of them, though, are from like thrift books or, you know, I mean, I would not say that these books are all in great shape because at first I just was like, oh, I'd be really interested in what these have to say. And then I kind of thought, oh, this actually would be really cool to act. To really, like, collect good copies of these books and sort of have the. Yeah, so those are my two answers.
- [04:33]
Sarah MacLean
You know, I had been thinking about this since the conversation with Rebecca. And then this morning I was looking at Instagram and I found this woman on Instagram and she collects copies of Wuthering Heights. And her whole Instagram is her driving around the United Kingdom, she's English, and every tiny little bookstore, we used bookstore in every little town, she goes in and looks for a copy of Wuthering Heights. And then if she has that copy, she doesn't buy it, but if it's something she doesn't have, she buys it.
- [05:04]
Jennifer Prokop
That's pretty cool.
- [05:04]
Sarah MacLean
And now she has 57 copies of Wuthering Heights, which is again, I don't think I have a book that I like enough for that. But that is a cool. I really honestly was like, oh, that's a Cool thing to do.
- [05:18]
Jennifer Prokop
I do have three copies of Dreaming of you.
- [05:21]
Sarah MacLean
Oh, me too. Okay.
- [05:22]
Jennifer Prokop
No, I mean, I. But I mean, I have the one with a step back and then the current one. And then I have the one that's like the little manga one.
- [05:28]
Sarah MacLean
Oh, I don't have that manga one. But I do think what's interesting about that, about picking a book, if you love a classic the way this woman obviously loves Wuthering Heights, then that's a very cool thing because also I think eventually you're gonna find really interesting. Yeah. Versions of it that nobody knew existed versus, you know, dreaming of you. We kind of know what exists, right?
- [05:57]
Jennifer Prokop
I mean. Yeah. With something like that, there's limitless numbers of them, I imagine.
- [06:02]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah. And then maybe one day you stumble into something that's really special. Like, special. There are only five of these, you know. Welcome, everyone. Fated mates. I'm Sarah Maclean. I read romance novels and I write them.
- [06:15]
Jennifer Prokop
And I'm Jennifer Prokop, a romance reader and editor. And this week we're back. Back on our bullshit.
- [06:22]
Sarah MacLean
Well, interestingly, before we start. Well, we are back on our bullshit. We're back on our bullshit. Everybody. Welcome new readers, new listeners. If you came to an event with me for the last two weeks and then thought, gosh, this event was so fun, I would love to have her in my ear holes every Wednesday.
- [06:41]
Jennifer Prokop
Hi, everybody.
- [06:42]
Sarah MacLean
And we talk about romance novels every week, so that's fun. One of the things, though, that you didn't mention is that for your birthday, Christmas, some holiday, I gave you a collection from the Lily Library Romney catalog. And that's really related to this.
- [07:03]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, it is. Because. Wait, hold on, let me grab them. I missed a roll away for a minute and here they are right behind a picture of you.
- [07:12]
Sarah MacLean
Oh, see? Gate kept by me. She's pulling them out, everybody. You can't see this, but she's literally yanking them off the bookshelf.
- [07:20]
Jennifer Prokop
The career novels, what was the actual.
- [07:23]
Sarah MacLean
The publisher is a weird. Okay, so I'm going to describe them while you figure out what. What they are. So there was a special collection of. These are from like the 50s and 60s of early romances. They're like category length. They're a little than category length. And they are specifically about women in careers because Jen likes a job.
- [07:47]
Jennifer Prokop
I do.
- [07:48]
Sarah MacLean
And so what do you got?
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Jennifer Prokop
Oh, Aramont. The Airmont career series. Airmont, I think, is the publisher.
- [07:54]
Sarah MacLean
And they're all like 35 cents the COVID That's how you know. So interestingly, Rebecca Romney told me in with these pulp romances or these like early, early collections. They never changed the inside printing. So it still says first edition on the inside print page. The way you can tell is the price. So if it's 35 cents or 40 cents, then it is a first edition.
- [08:22]
Jennifer Prokop
I mean, Barbara Owen, girl reporter. Susan Brown, camp counselor. They don't all have a name. Sometimes they're just like, you know, Captain Jane. Captain.
- [08:33]
Sarah MacLean
Is she a pilot?
- [08:34]
Jennifer Prokop
No, it's a boat, Sarah. She had to compete.
- [08:39]
Sarah MacLean
Did you like how she said that?
- [08:40]
Jennifer Prokop
Like you. Well, I'm boat. There is an air stewardess, I don't think.
- [08:47]
Sarah MacLean
I guess lady pilots were not a thing.
- [08:49]
Jennifer Prokop
I mean, women wanted to be pilots, they just didn't let them because I mean, Amelia Earhart. Sarah, come on.
- [08:55]
Sarah MacLean
Well, she did kill herself. I mean, not in a she. It wasn't intentional. I don't think she just flew into the sea.
- [09:02]
Jennifer Prokop
So did a lot of men. That didn't stop them.
- [09:05]
Sarah MacLean
That's true.
- [09:06]
Jennifer Prokop
Time to deal with your internalized misogyny, Sarah.
- [09:11]
Sarah MacLean
I will say something that I discovered. I had a because of misogyny moment on a Delta airline during the last two weeks because Delta is very proud of the fact I'm a Delta flyer, everyone. Delta is very proud of the fact that they are the first airline that has reached 100 years in flight. So this is not sponsored by Delta, but should be just throw some extra miles in my account. Delta. So. But one of the things that they're, that they're doing now is, you know, like the pre flight video. Now on some planes they don't. It's not an, it's not a person who does it in the, who, who does it over the intercom with like a seatbelt in the, in the aisle. It's on the actual seat back in front of you on the screen. And there the current Delta screen video is, they have a bunch of people, flight attendants, wearing the uniforms of the decades.
- [10:14]
Jennifer Prokop
Oh, that's fun.
- [10:15]
Sarah MacLean
Which is very cool. And actually if you're out there and you're interested in fashion, see if you will. I'll see if I can find. I'm sure this is on YouTube. I'm sure it is. And like if it is, we'll put a link. But one of the things that's really interested is like major fashion designers, like known fashion designers designed the Delta uniforms over the course of like the 50s and 60s and 70s. But of course the first like five people who speak are women. And then in the seven, no, in the 80s, a man speaks and I'm like, oh, that's interesting. This is the first man to Senate because of misogyny. Those rich, mad people, mad men did not want flight attendants to be men. They wanted flight attendants to be beautiful women.
- [11:01]
Jennifer Prokop
Well, they were called stewardesses. They were so. And in fact, there is a book, Air Stewardess. Here's the COVID Ooh, that's a her.
- [11:12]
Sarah MacLean
She has a big, giant face.
- [11:13]
Jennifer Prokop
She does have a big, giant face. Exciting assignment. Linda Martin had asked for, and to her surprise, was given the glamorous Tijuana Mexico City run. To Linda, Mexico was an exciting foreign. And there was the dashing Carlos, patrician, handsome, wealthy, far more fascinating than American. Pete Randolph, reporter, and would be novelist. The other side of the coin were the flights over the Sonora Desert. Linda hated the desert, and her feeling was to be prophetic, for this vast, unfriendly expanse suddenly became a menacing and frightening challenge, a craft in her life. I mean, I fucking hope so.
- [11:58]
Sarah MacLean
Amazing crash. And there you are with Pete and Carlos.
- [12:02]
Jennifer Prokop
Marguerite knew the job. A lot of these seem to have, like, a bit of a why choose? Situation. Yeah, I think they probably choose. You know, it's funny. I'll put it in show notes. I was interviewed last week, a TV show called the Summer I Turned Pretty is Back. And I had a really interesting conversation with a reporter from the New York Post about, like, love triangles and fiction and just kind of like, their purpose and storytelling. And the best part about it was that I kind of took, like, a sideways turn and talked about how annoying it is that Stephanie Plum never chose between Ranger and Morelli.
- [12:42]
Sarah MacLean
Janet Ivanovich is gonna come to your house.
- [12:44]
Jennifer Prokop
Whatever Janet Vanovich is like, lives in a rich place.
- [12:49]
Sarah MacLean
Janet Evanovich owns a state.
- [12:52]
Jennifer Prokop
She does. She has seven of her own pools she doesn't need to come for. What was not cool is. I did say I did was sort of like an adult romance. Now I would just fully expect them to all end up as a throuple. And she, for whatever reason, did not include that. But I. My guess is. Is because apparently this is. My guess is this is a TV show. It's a TV show about teenagers. So obviously, that is.
- [13:15]
Sarah MacLean
You've crossed the line.
- [13:16]
Jennifer Prokop
I did. What a shock. Anyhow.
- [13:23]
Sarah MacLean
Listen, so we're talking about careers today. Not really, though. We're actually talking about competence porn today. But we probably didn't title the episode Competence Porn because of God.
- [13:35]
Jennifer Prokop
And Republicans. I don't know. Okay.
- [13:39]
Sarah MacLean
Beta Mates becomes banned in 17 states.
- [13:43]
Jennifer Prokop
I mean, we shouldn't laugh because we.
- [13:46]
Sarah MacLean
Shouldn'T listen we shouldn't laugh, but fine.
- [13:50]
Jennifer Prokop
I literally listen. Speaking of confidence, Eric, you can just keep this in. But, like, you do have the entire podcast backed up somewhere, right?
- [13:59]
Sarah MacLean
Yes, we do. We do. It's not in, like, Iron Mountain or anything, but. Well, there are two things. First of all, where did Steve Amadown work?
- [14:10]
Jennifer Prokop
I think it's actually. I have to contact him. I think it's actually at the University of Michigan, but who knows?
- [14:17]
Sarah MacLean
Okay. There is so there. For a little while, there was a university. See, we're not even.
- [14:23]
Jennifer Prokop
We don't even know.
- [14:23]
Sarah MacLean
Part of the challenge is that we should know this and we don't. Right? But maybe this is where I, I.
- [14:30]
Jennifer Prokop
We're looking incompetent right now, and it's fine.
- [14:32]
Sarah MacLean
Listen, do as we do as we say, not as we. Or do as we read, not as we do. Maybe I will email Rebecca and ask them if perhaps the Lily Library would like to back up Creative Maze. But we do. We have a hard copy. We have a hard disk somewhere. And then there's a disc in a fireproof safe somewhere.
- [14:51]
Jennifer Prokop
See?
- [14:52]
Sarah MacLean
And look at that. I don't know how often we update that disc in the fireproof safe, but we have something.
- [14:57]
Jennifer Prokop
I just think in our. Our current reality, maybe we should do a pretty.
- [15:00]
Sarah MacLean
Oh, but also, no. The whole thing is hosted in the UK because of the new tool we use. Here we are, we're just having a business meeting. Eric's gonna be like, what the. You do. Hey, listen, this is good, you guys. Honestly, if you're out there and you have a podcast, Eric will probably. Eric will take this out. If it's not. If it's not real, if it's left in, we're going to assume I'm correct, which you have a podcast out there. There are tools from Canada and other places where you can actually use those tools to host the audio files. In which case, congratulations, Fascism hasn't come for you yet.
- [15:40]
Jennifer Prokop
Yet. Okay.
- [15:45]
Sarah MacLean
This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Wattpad Press, publishers of ZW Taylor's the Pack, the third in the Moon Blood saga.
- [15:56]
Jennifer Prokop
Okay, so if you love paranormal movies and TV shows like Underworld or Twilight, you are going to love this addicting series. Charlotte has finally found her place and settled into the Thunderhead Werewolf pack in backwoods Alaska. She spent the past year happily working as a tracker, spending her downtime with her best friend and roommate or catching up with her mentor. And there's been plenty of. There's a lot of magic in the forest surrounding where the pack lives. And rogue wolves keep appearing all over the state. And so, for the first time in a long time, even though her life feels safe, she knows that something's about to happen. So the surprise arrival of someone new turns the world she's grown to love upside down. Now Charlotte is faced with new challenges and truths that make her question everything around her. She wonders if it's possible to protect the people she loves while also following her heart. She decides she has to try. But every attempt at happiness is derailed because of these outsmarts threats, including an old enemy reappearing. So battle lines are going to be drawn and a final epic fight seems inevitable.
- [17:05]
Sarah MacLean
You can read the pack and the entire Moon Blood saga right now in print, ebook or audiobook if your podcasting app supports it. You can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy those books. Thank you to ZW Taylor and Wattpad for sponsoring this week's episod. Anyway, so we are talking about competent characters in romance. Yes. And why they are so sexy.
- [17:37]
Jennifer Prokop
So, okay, part of this is, number one, is it is interesting always to talk about jobs and romance. And it's been a while since we've sort of like, kind of broadly talked about them. Although I think we talk about them in some ways a lot.
- [17:50]
Sarah MacLean
Because you love a job.
- [17:51]
Jennifer Prokop
I do. Which is interesting because I.
- [17:53]
Sarah MacLean
Jobs are like animals. They mean something.
- [17:55]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [17:56]
Sarah MacLean
Or they should.
- [17:57]
Jennifer Prokop
No, the thing is, is it should tell us about the character. Like, I don't actually care. The reason, like, the fossils rant is sort of, like, hilarious is because my point is, is like, I don't actually want to learn about actual fucking fossils, but I do want to learn about the characters and why they love them. Right. Or why this is an interest or whatever. Right. Like, if, you know in your book people are literally, like, working with spreadsheets, I shouldn't actually ever have to learn. I shouldn't ever learn something about how a spreadsheet really works in a romance. Right.
- [18:30]
Sarah MacLean
Okay.
- [18:31]
Jennifer Prokop
But if somebody is like, this work is satisfying or safe or whatever. Right? So I think it's always like, yeah, it's about always, always, always in romance, about character. So part of the reason that this is interesting and we came up with this topic is we kind of are constantly like, what's on our. Like, what's an old episode we've done that we should update? And sometimes we look back at, like, the photo array. We're like, what would you possibly be talking about with this set of books that would actually be really funny? Like, put Up a photo array and be like, what was the topic? And we'd be like, I don't know. I have no idea.
- [19:07]
Sarah MacLean
Right, exactly.
- [19:09]
Jennifer Prokop
So that's kind of interesting. But also because we were talking about. I've been re. Listening to Storms because Julia Whalen, Julie Whelan. And I was like, I love a fixer. Like, same confidence porn. Purely distilled. And then we were like, are there other fixers in romance or other fixers as characters?
- [19:35]
Sarah MacLean
And then we immediately named a bunch. And then we went to season two, episode eight, which is called Competence and Careers and Romance. And we looked at the photo array and we were like, what the fuck is all this?
- [19:48]
Jennifer Prokop
But all these books. This makes no sense. We have to do it. Do it over.
- [19:51]
Sarah MacLean
I mean, we listen. We don't. It's not like we re. Listen. So maybe we were super smart in that we probably listen. We were obviously very intelligent when we spoke about all those books in relationship to competence and careers and romance. But the reality is, literally none of the books that we had on our list were on this list. And I've read at least two of them from before this, so I don't understand. But here we are, and this is why.
- [20:16]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, that's what makes it fun. It's like a snapshot of what we're reading now.
- [20:20]
Sarah MacLean
We've lived a generation of romance pants, and now we have other thoughts about it. So let's talk about this. Let's talk about. I want to talk about careers first, and then let's get into competence, right? And fixers. Because I think, like, what we just said, what you just said, careers matter, right? Careers are supposed to say something about a character. I think right now we're in this place in romance where we are seeing a lot of the same careers again and again. And I do think, for what it's worth, many of the careers that we're seeing are sort of tagged as competence. So, like, for example, the wedding planner, right? We are seeing a lot. And when I say a lot, I mean, you guys, if you're writing a contemporary and you're writing a wedding planner, there are many, many wedding planner books out there. And so, like, I would just sort of coach you as, like, your. Your friend. Think about whether wedding planning is the ascent is an essential job in this particular book because they are everywhere. But I actually think what wedding planning, for example, tags or, like, codes as is like a deeply competent person, right? This is a person who is entrusted with the most, you know, quote, the most important day of a person's life. And so, like, that sense of, like, preparedness and organization and a sense of being able to, like, manage any snafu or, like, put out any fire is a way that we can sort of like really, like, shorthand a heroine almost always. Right. Like, I don't think I've ever read a hero who's a wedding planner. That would be fun. But this is how we shorthand a heroine who has. Has at least like, one part of her life together.
- [22:27]
Jennifer Prokop
Okay, let's talk about, like, okay, not all wedding planners, but part of the problem with that is, right, there's a point at which it becomes. Can kind of transfer over into cliche. Right. Like your kind of authors might be assuming, like, ok, people are just going to see this as like, here's a person who's organized and therefore competent. And I can like, kind of move past this.
- [22:48]
Sarah MacLean
Right.
- [22:49]
Jennifer Prokop
But I also think that there is a difference then between people who choose a job or career to tell us something about the character versus people who choose a job or career to set up something about the plot.
- [23:06]
Sarah MacLean
Mm.
- [23:07]
Jennifer Prokop
Right. And so. So she's the wedding planner and he's the best man or whatever. Right? Or something like, sure, if the wedding.
- [23:17]
Sarah MacLean
Is essential to the plot. And then she. Or. I mean, you said best man. I was like, he's the groom, Jen.
- [23:23]
Jennifer Prokop
Right. Well, of course. But I didn't want to get in trouble right away. Yeah, right. I mean, so then it's just so that they can have a reason to be in each other's orbit and the job actually isn't telling us anything interesting about her.
- [23:39]
Sarah MacLean
I think you're 100% right. So I think that one of the things that I was thinking about as I was thinking about books for today, which are not books about wedding planners, is this idea of, like, show, don't tell. Right. Like, if your character is a deeply competent. Has a. Is a very competent person with a job, like fixer, we have got to see that this person is like. Like unflappable, completely focused on their work in many ways, like, intimidating. Like, we have to understand that this person does not slip up. And the reason why we have to understand that is because we're gonna see this person slip up if they're a hero.
- [24:26]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. And I think the thing that's interesting to me about Jack as fixer, and I was thinking, I, you know, it's really. This is why I love. I'm a big rereader in audio if I really loved a book, because I feel like I slow down and Pay more attention to it. One of the things I really like about Jack is one of the ways, you know, how competent he is is how much everybody fucking hates him in that family.
- [24:50]
Sarah MacLean
Loathes him.
- [24:51]
Jennifer Prokop
And you're like, he must be really good at this job. Right? And then I was singing, and this is like. You know, it's funny. I didn't have time to rewatch it, but. Have you ever seen the movie Michael Clayton?
- [25:02]
Sarah MacLean
I have.
- [25:03]
Jennifer Prokop
Right. He's a fixer.
- [25:04]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah, he is.
- [25:05]
Jennifer Prokop
And part of the thing that's really interesting about that movie, though, is he's the best fixer in the business, but what he really wants to do is open a restaurant, and he's terrible at that. He actually is, like, losing his shirt financially because he made this really bad investment. Right. And I think that that is, like, one of the things that's also really interesting is, like, sort of somebody, like, right back to. It's interesting about character, right? The thing you're really good at is the thing you hate about yourself or the thing you're really bad at. Right? Like, so competence is a particularly interesting lever, I think, with which to talk about this.
- [25:45]
Sarah MacLean
With heroes, there is a sense of, like, competence being a code for them being so buttoned up that we are excited as readers, to see them come undone.
- [25:58]
Jennifer Prokop
I don't really. I have an example of that. I don't want to talk about it yet, because there was one other thing I wanted to talk about, which is, I think, in Georgie all along, which is a book we've talked about a bunch. I don't really remember a lot of, like, real specific lines in a romance. Like, Right. This is not really how I typically read in this book. Levi says something, right? Like, she's sort of talking about, like, jobs, and, like, you know, she is left behind. Georgie is left behind, this job being, like, an assistant, essentially. And she comes back and she says. She's, like, sort of saying something about, like, well, I could do work like that if I. If I want to. And he, like, actually, like, kind of stops dead. Like, he doesn't even understand. And he thinks, what's work got to do with wanting? And I really found that book's exploration of the difference between, like, work versus career to be very, I think, meaningful in a way that romance, I think, always assumes it's a career. And I think this idea of work being different than career is one that book, I think, is really smart at and purposeful. I think it's like the whole idea of the book is to think about Work as being for some people, like, they don't want. It's not right. Like, what does work have to do with wanting? Work is just what you do. And I found that exploration in that book to be probably not something we'll really spend a whole lot of time talking about, but one that I think really changed the way I think about or maybe just illuminated how often work is being used or career as a plot device rather than as a character device. And how much more interesting it is to me to think about it as character.
- [28:08]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah, I think that's true. And I think that there's a third version of this, right? This competence slash fixer, whatever. And that is the character. And this is something that I'm really interested in. I think has. There are sort of shades of this in Storms with Jack is the character who is so good at their job that they play themselves. And then their job. They've done the job so well that once they realize that it's harmed somebody or it's taken them too far down the road and threatened, they're now like potential romance, potential love, their big feelings. Then suddenly they have to reckon with who they have been. And this is where I think something like morality chain bumps up against the fixer, right? And you know, we've talked a lot about this recently. The different or, you know, not recently, we constantly talk about this difference between, like, morality chain and dark romance. But, like, I think that morality chain as this is where I would say, like, Joanna Shoup's criminals, like my criminals, like people who are writing characters, you know, characters who are in some way in the darkness, right? Like operating in crime motor. This is where our motorcycle gangs live. Like these kinds of characters who are so good at a questionably moral. A job that has questionable morals. And then it them up.
- [29:51]
Jennifer Prokop
Like sometimes I at my, like, day job, which I'm just like a teacher, but like, something happens, right? And I'm just kind of like, oh, should I work here? You know, like all of this stuff. And then I like sort of have these moments where I'm like, it's a job, it's fine. Like, I don't. You know what I mean?
- [30:08]
Sarah MacLean
Leaves anyone on the table, right?
- [30:10]
Jennifer Prokop
But also, like, I like it's capitalism, right? Like, it's like I'm doing a task, and in exchange I am paid money. And sometimes it's okay to like, decouple my feelings from that because my work, right. The thing that I think I'm like, called to do in some way is with the students, right? Like that's the thing. If, if that was breaking down, then I'd really be like, okay, should I really be here? But like, something happen in the larger community of like, my school or, like, with administration or whatever. Like, I'm just like, I'm never going to agree with all that. That doesn't matter. Like, am I doing my, like, what is my job? Right? And so I think that that's part of the thing about. About it too. It's like, right, where is the work being done? And then like, what's, you know, like you said, if, if you're hurting people doing that work, and you just were like, why? But I was doing my job. Right.
- [31:06]
Sarah MacLean
That's.
- [31:07]
Jennifer Prokop
It's really interesting to see the intersection of how that can all play out and. Right. Like the morality chain, like the they're criminals part of it. But you know what? Like, honestly, if these books were real, every billionaire should be thinking that way, right? Like, why is that gender neutral?
- [31:23]
Sarah MacLean
A thousand percent. As you were talking about that, I was thinking about Heather Grare's preferential treatment, which we did a deep dive of last season. And there's your billionaire, right? Who has, who has to reckon with the fact that he has his. His billion. His very existence is problematic, right? But what's interesting there is the billions. The money is on the table, but the work is not. Right. Like she. Heather Guare isn't interested in what the work is, right?
- [31:52]
Jennifer Prokop
Not at all. It's about.
- [31:53]
Sarah MacLean
She's interested in how the money divests itself in the book. Which is, I mean, the reason. Part of the reason why we did a deep dive on it is because I think this book explores billionairing better than anything I've seen in romance. Right? So, but that said, I think, like, there is, I think what you're, You're. You're absolutely right. Like, there is this kind of. Like there is in the Venn diagram of whatever it is we're talking about. Like, there are things that don't exist in this, like, career sphere despite being tied to career. And that is, you know, the wedding planner who's just there for plot. The. You know, there's a, you know, I.
- [32:34]
Jennifer Prokop
Mean, there's a reason why, like generic.
- [32:35]
Sarah MacLean
Office job, Gray Enterprise holdings limited or whatever. Right, Right.
- [32:41]
Jennifer Prokop
Because we don't have to care about the work. We just understand that this is like proximity.
- [32:47]
Sarah MacLean
Interestingly, I don't know what we talked about in season two, episode eight, but the Hating Game is on that list. And now, of course, I saw that and I was like, why is the hating game on there? Like, that's not a job about.
- [32:59]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, now you're like, oh, no, right.
- [33:01]
Sarah MacLean
Like that's. That's not a book about fixers. That's a book about like two people who have a job, but the career doesn't matter in that. Like it's. It's publishing, but it doesn't matter.
- [33:10]
Jennifer Prokop
Doesn't matter. Right. Because it's about their interactions. Right. Like you're human, You're. Well, who's the human you are at work?
- [33:17]
Sarah MacLean
Exactly. Exactly. It's still a banger.
- [33:22]
Jennifer Prokop
This week's episode of Faded Mates is brought to you by Lumi Gummies.
- [33:28]
Sarah MacLean
Consistent, mellow, and super delicious, Lumi Gummies are specifically designed to make you feel good, not stoned. Whether you're looking for an end of day distressor a midday mood boost or help getting the best sleep ever, Lumi Gummies has a strain that is right for you. And I gotta tell you, for the last couple of weeks, obviously I've been on tour, I've been super sleepy in different time zones looking for a de stressor, flying, training, etc. And gummies have been a great help through a lot of that. And then what I would say is, last night, so I got home and I have this, like, weird thing, this weird, like, pain in my foot. I don't know what I did, but last night it was really painful and I took a gummy before I went to bed and I slept great.
- [34:17]
Jennifer Prokop
See, I love it. Lumi Gummies are also available nationwide. Go to lumigummies.com that's L U M I Gummies and use the code Faded Mates for 30% off your order. Again, that's L U M I gummies.com code faded mates lumigummies.com code faded mates is the way to get to this great, very chill, very mellow experience, whether you are traveling or just sitting at home. So if your podcasting app supports it and you click on the chapter title, we will take you to their site. Thanks to Lumi Gummies for sponsoring this week's episode. Okay, I want to start with a historical, actually, and this is a book that I worked on, so fair, you know, full disclosure, everybody. And it's called Out With Lanterns by Hilary Bowen. And the reason that I was really interested in this is because it approaches competence in a really interesting way, which is the book is a historical set during World War I already. I was like, whoa, that's kind of crazy, right? And what's happening in the book is that Ophelia the book starts off with Ophelia living on a farm with other women, and a woman owns the farm. And essentially this is something called the Women's Land Army. And because men are off at war, and so now women are sort of, like, doing a lot of. You're right, and we hear this story all the time with World War II, but it happens all the time, right? Men go off to war. Women are, like, kind of left holding the bag. And what's really interesting is that Ophelia had. Is actually like, her father is, like, wealthier, you know, titled, I don't know, whatever. And she leaves. Leaves home. She's just like, I. She wants to force her to marry somebody. And she essentially, like, has heard some of these women talk, and she's like, I am going to leave home. And I'm essentially. It's like, deeply feminist, right? She's like, I'm going to leave home and go do this thing. And she is assigned essentially to this farm, and she knows nothing about anything. But when the book picks up, she is learning. She is essentially, like, working with a lot with the horses and, like, is learning to sort of plow. And the book opens with essentially, like, you know, some man showing up from, like, the War Department and being like, you guys have to produce more. More. You got to produce more food. You're not doing enough. You're going to lose the farm if you don't do it. And in order to help you, we're going to have. We're going to send a. A soldier who's kind of like, home, you know, like, injured or whatever, to like, kind of make sure you women are doing the right thing. So it, like, sets up all these really interesting things about the farm and the women on it and. And how men can, even though they aren't there, still kind of, you know, tell them what to do. And Ophelia's really, like, kind of upset with herself. Like, is this my fault?
- [37:32]
Sarah MacLean
Interesting.
- [37:33]
Jennifer Prokop
Am I not competent enough? I've been working so hard to learn how to do this, and now someone else is gonna come along. And of course, Silas, the man who is assigned, is. Turns out to be, like, a childhood friend of hers, okay? And so he'd gone off to war, and then there's all this past behind, you know, you know, behind them, and they have to figure out what it is. And, you know, like, you as the reader, have to figure out what it is. But he is essentially, like, has, it turns out, was a tenant farmer on their fam. Her family's property. And so, I don't know, I just really found myself thinking, like, here's a book who took the idea in. In a historical. Takes the idea of, like, women learning how to do things for themselves and work for themselves very seriously. Like, right. Like when you're like, I'm trying so hard to be competent. I'm learning this new thing. Look how much I've learned. And now I'm being told it's not enough. Right. It was a really interesting. And listen, I thought it's beautifully written. I was really interested in World War I as a time. You know what I mean, as a time frame for this. But just also, we've heard so much about. I don't like Rosie's a riveter.
- [38:52]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah.
- [38:53]
Jennifer Prokop
But to actually have a book really, like, really dive into. Here's a girl who, like, walked away from her high class, upper class life and really was like, I am gonna fully throw myself into this as a woman. I thought it was great. So I think it's just a really. It was very powerful to me. I thought it was really. And doing something really interesting as a historical romance.
- [39:19]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah, I think that's really interesting. And I wasn't actually gonna talk about Audrianna this week, but since you brought this up, I think the book that just immediately popped into my head, that I think is a natural sort of next, like, next piece of this is a Tropical Rebel Gets the Duke, right? Where we also have a sort of historical set against a historical backdrop. And I don't even know, interestingly, in the. In the first version of this, Careers and competence, right? There were. We said yesterday we were looking at it, we were like, oh, there are a lot of historicals here, but I think that there's something that historicals can do with work that contemporaries can't do or maybe struggle to do as well. And that is that I'm gonna. I'm putting a pin in Adriana for a second while I have a thought, which is I think that we are so conditioned, whether we like it or not, whether it's historically accurate or not, you know, whether patriarchy or not, to believe that women in the past did not have jobs. Right? Like, even though I listen, I know better than anybody that women in the past had jobs like their working women worked like houses. It's two income families have been necessary since the dawn of time, Right? So, like, you have women who, you know. But you see that when you see working women in historicals, you often see them as, like, servants or, you know, governesses, like People who are hired, as in house help for domestic work. And then the story of them is either that they are wallpaper, right. They're just like secondary care, tertiary, you know, whatever further down the thing, like along. Along in the background. Or it's like, here's a governess and she's going to be taken out of work. Right. Like, the work is to move her from working to not working. And so I think when you do have a character who is centered on Paige, who is a heroine who is working, you end up with a character who is naturally extraordinarily competent.
- [41:30]
Jennifer Prokop
Right.
- [41:31]
Sarah MacLean
Because in a histor, a woman with a job is. Is unique in some way. And then in contemporary, it just doesn't read that way. Right. But when you think about. So you were talking about, like, this particular friction in Hillary's book of, like, a person really, like, learning a. Like a job.
- [41:53]
Jennifer Prokop
Right.
- [41:54]
Sarah MacLean
I think a tropical rebel gets a duke is a similar situation because Aurora, who runs. Who is a doctor, who runs an abortion clinic. Right. An Illeg clinic, and who is on the run for, like, most of the book from being like, is trying not to get caught. Right. Her work is so central to her, not just herself, but also the plot. Right, Right. And what's interesting about it is talk about a fixer. Talk about a character who has immense power that is subversive in society and essential to not just the con, the conflict, not just the plot of the book and her own character, but also to the world. Right. Like the world of women. And what's really interesting about the play that Adrianna makes in this book is that Apollo is not those things. Apollo cares about the work only because Aurora cares about the work. And it's really interesting because what Adriana has done is sort of created this romance novel where the work is essential, is vital to the text. The character who works is immensely qualified and skilled and capable and vital to the survival of many of the people around, like, of tons of people around them. And then she is just, like, wildly loved by this.
- [43:39]
Jennifer Prokop
It becomes important to him because of how she shows him, because of her.
- [43:44]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah. Apollo had no thoughts whatsoever about abortion before the beginning of this book.
- [43:49]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, that's a great example.
- [43:52]
Sarah MacLean
I'm realizing, like, almost all of the books that I have on my list are it's the woman who is the work, the important character. Work wise.
- [44:01]
Jennifer Prokop
Work wise. Yeah.
- [44:03]
Sarah MacLean
And I think this is a shift from a generational shift in romance, because I think probably a decade ago I would have been like, let's talk about all of These like military dudes who are protecting whatever, you know.
- [44:21]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. I think I'm. I think for me there's one I have that is. I mean, both of their work is important, but it's like notable the way he has internalized work.
- [44:34]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah, I mean, but I think what is happening here, what is interesting about this is that it's two sides of the same coin, right? It's the character who works. And then there is part of the reason why I think I'm so interested, especially like in Cishet Romance, right. About a woman who works and a man who supports her.
- [45:01]
Jennifer Prokop
Right.
- [45:01]
Sarah MacLean
Who will bend over backwards to support her is because of that. Right. Like the support, the constant sense of what I choose as my life's work is also. Is valid in my partner's eyes, which is a thing that. Listen, women don't get irl.
- [45:30]
Jennifer Prokop
This week's episode of Fated Mates is brought to you by Hilary Bowen, author of out with Lanterns.
- [45:36]
Sarah MacLean
So Ophelia Blackwood has a choice. Her father has a bunch, a parade of ill advised suitors. And she can choose one of them and get married in England in 1917, or she can seize control of her future and join the war effort with the Women's Land Army. And Olivia makes her choice. She finds camaraderie and confidence through hard work on a farm in Somerset where she's been assigned to work as part of the ongoing war effort at home. And doing so gives her purpose and independence. But a year into her assignment, Silas Lark arrives. And Ophelia is irritated to discover that he is just as intriguing and attractive as he was when they had an intense summer years ago. But Silas is very different now. He went to war, he was injured on the front lines. He has spent a year rebuilding himself and his confidence. And now he is focused on returning to his work as a tenant farmer. The British government has put him to work on this farm where Ophelia is. And he finds himself thrown together with a woman he can't forget, but somebody who is far different from the young woman that he knew all those years ago. They both have dreams for their future. They have to reckon with what they expect for themselves, what they have expected for themselves. Ophelia doesn't want marriage anymore. Silas isn't sure what is to come now that he's been to war. And these two are going to have to walk through fire if they're going to make it work. And I think they will.
- [47:22]
Jennifer Prokop
So you heard me talk about this book on the episode. And in a nice confluence of events here Hillary is advertising on the episode. Out with Lanterns is available in print or e wherever books are sold and if your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Hilary Bowen for sponsoring this week's episode. I want to talk about the book Single Player by Tara Tai. This is a romance set against the backdrop of like the video game industry. And in this book, Andy and Cat are the two main characters and they are like sort of famous in the gaming industry. But in particular, one of the things that so like kind of for their work and what they're known for. But one of the things in particular is that Andy was targeted by essentially like a Gamergate type thing, right? Was found out by like a bunch of men to write like doxed, right? Like lots of like really scary, kind of terrifying things. And as a result of this, Andy is. Is very resistant to anything that will put them back in the spotlight or sort of like make them or their gaming product or whatever look weak. And I can't exactly. You know, it's funny I didn't reread for this. I sort of just like look back at kind of some old notes. But one of the things that's interesting about this is that if I'm remembering correctly, Andy is like sort of a N D I and I think like their name is sort of gender neutral. And one of the reasons that these like men in the gaming industry turned against her was they discovered that even though in the book they're kind of like maybe female presenting non binary. So Andy goes by she and sometimes by they is they felt these men that like, oh my God, this is a woman. How dare. And so one of the things as a result of this is that Andy has really pulled away at all from any kind of anything that will kind of put them back in the spotlight. And you know, so what happens is she's working on a new game and Cat is hired by the company. I think if I'm remembering this correctly, to come in and essentially like add a love interest into the game. And Andy is like, well, I don't fucking want that. I never wanted that. And so Andy's way of dealing with this is to essentially just ignore Cat. Like I'm. I'm just gonna pretend this isn't happening because Andy is like, has some big, you know, she's not. She doesn't run the company, but like, it's her game, right? It's Andy's game. It's their game. They just think like, If I ignore this long enough, they can't force me to do it. I'm the director or whatever of the game. And Cat is of course. Now this is the part that's really interesting. So Andy is presented as very on top of things, very. Right. Very competent, as like a person who knows how to write and like create a game. But what Kat is confident at is like writing love into the games. She's like, had a lot of success doing this. And so now what I really liked about this in terms of like the, you know, this is, listen, this is a very slow burn romance. This is in a lot of ways was like kind of, you know, like not necessarily hitting like the pacing kind of things that like I typically would like prefer in a romance. But it's. But you have two real people who are really competent and good at what they are good at. But because they are, they have different beliefs, we see the tension between them. Right. So Kat is like, adding love to this game is going to make it better and Andy is like, absolutely fucking not. It's going to ruin everything. Right. And so.
- [51:46]
Sarah MacLean
Right.
- [51:46]
Jennifer Prokop
And so one of the things that I really thought was really interesting about this is you essentially have two competent people on opposite sides of like what seems like a divide they will never be able to figure out or cross. And what ends up happening is like they go to a gaming conference and it's in Las Vegas and you know, finally they figure it all out. But I really was very won over. In particular, it was very memorable to me how frustrated Kat was becoming at work knowing that she was being boxed out from doing the very thing she'd been hired to do. You know what I mean?
- [52:29]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah, of course.
- [52:30]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. It's very. If you're a gaming person, I think you would really enjoy it.
- [52:34]
Sarah MacLean
There are so many books. When did. Is this recent?
- [52:37]
Jennifer Prokop
I think it was from. I think it was from the beginning of this year. Like maybe it's from six or eight months ago.
- [52:46]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah, this is really interesting. Gaming is really becoming. I mean, I think this is a completely separate thing. Everybody. This is a different episode. But gaming is really becoming very present in romance in a way that it like hasn't in the past. And I think, I wonder. I. I think this might be sort of related to the. The pandemic in some way also. But I'm really interested. This is one of those things. Everybody knows that. I have a list of things that I'm paying attention to in romance and gaming is one of them. So I'm excited you talked about that. All right, let's talk about a true fixer. A true, true, true fixer. And that is, I want to talk about Kelly Bowen and her Duke of My Heart, which is the first book in her season for Scandal series. And before I talk about the book itself, I just want to say those of you who are out there who are thinking about historicals and going like, I'm so sad there just aren't as many being released. Like, you may not know about Kelly Bowen and you should, because this is a woman who knows how to write a historical and she now writes historical novels. But you can go back and read. I think she's written six or eight historical romances and they're all terrific. But Duke of My Heart came out, I don't know, God, maybe a decade ago. And the hero of this book is a sea captain. Listen, not a pilot.
- [54:26]
Jennifer Prokop
Not a pilot. A real.
- [54:27]
Sarah MacLean
Oh yeah, a real DLC captain. A man who has, as is the duke is a duke. The duke, the eponymous duke of her heart. And he is like, talk about just like mega competent. And here's what I would say is a competent heroine. And that is what I'm going to talk about in this book. Matched with a man who is so buttoned up that they are just like, that they become pure exasperation is like exactly the match I want. Anyway, so he is a duke and he has an errant younger sister who is just like chaos. And he spends most of his time just like not paying that much attention to the dukedom because he likes being on a ship. So, like he's sailing around the world. He's like battling pirates. He's doing whatever. He comes home. He is duke. He walks into his home and discovers a naked man. Man dead and tied to his missing sister's bed. So it's clear that there has been at least, there have been at least two scandals in this house. Namely, somehow his sister landed with this man, with this naked man in her bed. And two, now that man is dead, right? And that man is an earl, right? And also this sister is missing. Except he can't really do anything about any of this because if he raises any fuss at all, the whole world's going to know what went down. So he has one place to go and that is to Ms. Ivory Moore's detective Agency. And Ivory is, She's, it's not, she's not real. She's not really a detective. She, She's a flat out fixer. Like, she's crisis pr. You go to Ivory when you need Something covered up, a little bit of scandal, washed away. You need, like, basically she's like, known as, like, a person who can fix basically anything. And so what happens is he goes to her and this is. This is another kind of really good example of how gender works itself through a lot of these books in historicals. Because when he gets to her, he's sort of pissed off that he has to see her, that she's the person who is going to have to, like. He's going to have to sort of like, prostrate himself. Exactly. So Ivory is so smart, she is so funny, she is so clever. She is basically like the person. So he goes to get her and he's like, I need help. And she's like, no problem. A dead body. I've done this before. So, like, in. She goes to, like, high to, like, snatch up this body. The Earl is married and known, and then, then kind of ends up getting tied up in this kind of. Well, now that we've solved the problem of where to put the dead Earl's body, right now, we have to find this woman. Like, is she missing? Is she missing because she ran? Is she missing because she's been kidnapped? Like, what are the things that are happening? And Ivory has handled all of this before. And even if she hasn't handled quite a situation like this, this. She's handled it. She's very clever. Max, however, is like, women don't. Women don't get into trouble. Yeah, of course, like, men are the ones who do dangerous work. And so he is, like, off his game, knocked back really fast. And it's a really fun read because of it, because, like, he can't quite get his footing around her. He is regularly just, like, overwhelmed by her choices, by her skills, by the things she is willing to do in order to save his sister for money. And then, of course, like, there's this added bonus here, which is. And this is. This is true of any book where there is, like, a really, truly skilled person in trade or in work, where there are a bunch of other people who work around Ivory, right. Who are really great secondary characters. And so, like, this is a book where it. It's the first in a series that just paints this, like, beautiful big picture of a world. And you get a real sense that for every book that Kelly writes in this series, like, you are going to be playing in this, like, ever expanding world, which, of course is also another favorite experience for me. But, I mean, Ivory just knows the job and she is unwilling to compromise. And I think that that's something really lovely, too, about these books that have heroines whose jobs are so essential or who like heroines who are this kind of competent. Like, the absolute unwillingness to sacrifice that competence or to cede it in any way is really lovely to read in 2024.
- [60:06]
Jennifer Prokop
I love that she's the fixer.
- [60:08]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah. I mean, but of course, right? Like, right? She can just. Like, she can move in and out of these houses without anybody noticing. She. Nobody expects. Nobody expects a Spanish Inquisition, right? Like, nobody expects a woman to have any power in any of these situations. And so she actually, like, is able to seamlessly fix. And, you know, this is. This is my kink. A heroine who has a lot of power and knows how to use it.
- [60:41]
Jennifer Prokop
All right, I'm going to talk about Pugs and Kisses by Farrah Roshan, which just came out last week. And everybody, I'm sure you all are completely aware that I love Pharaoh Roshan. So much so that I'm, like, reading these books about dogs. I don't know. This series is set in New Orleans, and in this case, one, I. I'm not gonna lie to you. I was really drawn in by the beginning of this book in particular, because Evie comes home and finds her fiance in their bed. In her bed, right, with another woman. And she is so frozen. And she kind of like, like, backs up. Like, right, like, backs up and backs out of the house and is like. And then she's like, what the am I doing? Right? And so then she, like, kind of reenters and sees, you know, her. I don't even remember this dirt bag's name anymore. And he tries to, like, you know, gaslight her. Like, what are you doing home in the middle of the day? And she's like, why are you naked in the kitchen in the middle of the day? The interaction between them lets us know that Evie has sort of put up with a lot from this man. And he thinks he's gonna be able to like, sort of walk, you know, kind of, like talk his way out of whatever this is. And she, like, throws him out and is like, you can come by and get your shit later and forget it. And the thing then that is really interesting is that she is a veterinarian and she works for him or they work together at his practice or something, and they do not have a pet of their own. And the thing that's really interesting is at this moment, all she wants is to, like, if. If this had not just happened, I would go into work and I'd hang out with the dogs, yeah. But I can't because he's there. And now I'm not gonna be able to go back there. Right. And so one of the things that was really brilliant, I think, about this setup, this is. Fuck. I mean, along with her, like, throwing that on his ass and threatening to, like, you know, kill him and stuff, which. Which I enjoyed a lot, is here. Evie is now in this position of her. The thing she is most competent and good at is now going to be removed from her because of her interpersonal problems. And so now what? Right now what? And I. And I. I just found this really interesting almost in like, kind of the inverse way of what we've been talking about, right? Which is like the thing that's gonna make me feel better and, like, ground me and make me, you know, kind of find myself again. I can't access anymore. And then she has this, like, sort of like. And she lies to her best friend Ashanti, who owns, like, this Barkingham palace. So she can't go back there, which is, you know, she's like, I just lied to my friend instead. I was not feeling well, so I can't go there. And then she realizes she can go back to this place that she used to volunteer here when she was, like, getting her license or whatever. So she heads to, you know, this other. It's like a nonprofit shelter or something. I'm not. Whatever, like, you know, these details. I will admit, I don't sure quite.
- [63:57]
Sarah MacLean
Romance reasons.
- [63:58]
Jennifer Prokop
Romance reasons. And there she discovers the like, essentially, instead of Dr. Landry who. Who's like the, you know, the older veterinarian who. Who, like, kind of taught her and, you know, someone who helped her, like, through this. It's called the Sanctuary. I had to look it up, right? It's like essentially a charity hospital. It's like a place people go for free veterinary care. And so she. What she finds there is Doc Landry is there, but so is Bryson Mitchell. And this was like someone she thought of as a friend, but he, like, ghosted her and blew her off. And now he is a veterinary surgeon. Like, they were friends in veterinary school. And he has essentially, like, you know, she hasn't seen him in, I don't know, seven or eight years, and he's back in New Orleans. And now she's like, oh, my God, I just am coming off of the worst moment of my fucking life. All I want to do is hang out with some fucking dogs and this assholes here. And what happens, of course, is that, you know, the sanctuary is going to be shut down. And Doc Landry is like, I want you two to help me essentially save the Sanctuary, right? We're going to do a big fundraiser. How can we essentially keep this place from going under? Like, what's that going to take? It struck me when I was reading this book because it was something that struck me in I think the first book, the Boyfriend Project series, I think maybe that's the name of the first book is. I think one of the things that Pharaoh Rochon is very interested in is women who, instead of pulling up the ladder behind them, are constantly looking for ways to pull people up after them 1000% right? And. And one of the reasons that Evie loved the Sanctuary is because it was so, so important to the way that she came became a vet herself. And so she's like, I have to save this place because I want to make sure that it will be here for other people like me who needed this as part of their journey. And I think that that is what makes this book again, like, really notable. I mean, you know, the way the obviously the romance between Bryson and Evie kind of right, like, she has to figure out, why did you ghost me all those years? And, you know, all this stuff. But the way in which, like, work is so important to Evie and believe it or not, like, the terrible thing that happened with her fiance allows her to like, reconnect to that in a way that I don't even think she knew was missing. And I think that that. And like I said, it's just like how important it is for her to like, save this place because this place saved her. So. Pugs and Kisses by Farrah Roshan.
- [67:12]
Sarah MacLean
I want to talk about Wanted a Gentleman by K.J. charles, which you all know, many of you know, is my favorite of her books. I think this is a really good example of people who have. Have particular sets of skills and set out to use them with. And not in a noble way like. Or rather it's not not noble, but in a way that is not what one would expect at first glance. And I think KJ is just so good at twisting and turning a plot to keep you guessing about what exactly somebody's skill, how exactly someone is deployed, the skill that they have. So the premise here is Theo, who is one of the heroes, is he runs a newspaper like a lonely hearts newspaper in Regency England. It could be later, it could be Victorian. In fact, I think it is Victorian. So he is, I mean, classic KJ opening. It begins with like all these different ads in the, like being placed in the Newspaper. And so it's like, you know, the woman who's looking for a husband. And then, like, there is this sort of really wonderful moment where she goes over. Where the Theo goes over an ad that is clearly an ad placed by a man for a man related to, like, bondage, kink. And, like, there's a discussion of, like, how the ad can be placed and not essentially get everybody thrown in prison. And then it becomes clear that there have been these. There's been a constant conversation in the. In this, like, Lonely Hearts sheet over the last weeks, months, et cetera, between two people. And they're having a conversation in full view of, like, all of London. And it's like, people are picking up this. This, like, sheet to read these messages. And in comes Martin, who is a freed black man. And he arrives a merchant, is it claim, you know, says he's a merchant and is working with the woman. Half, like, the family of the woman, half of this, like, conversation, this public conversation. And he shows up and he sort of says, like, I'm willing to pay you for information about. About this woman. And, you know what. Who this man is. We think he's, like, much older than her. He's trying to, like, you know, lead her down the garden path. Like, I'm related to this family, and I've been asked by them to protect her, to, like, come in and help. And Theo's like, fuck you. This is my job. Like, it's gonna cost you. And so what ends up happening. Happening is Theo needs money and Martin needs something that we don't. Like, there's some. Martin. Something is up with Martin. And what ends up beginning with, like, fine, you'll pay me an exorbitant amount of money, and I'll give you the information I have. Ends with these two on a road trip to Gretna Green to find this woman. And what goes on over the course of this book is kind of a real discussion of particular sets of skills and how they can be used both for good and for good, for revenge, for bad, for how they can be mercenary, how, in some cases, perception is the entire ball game. KJ Is really. She's playing chess with work up here, right? Like, is it. You know, there are these questions about Theodore's work, and it's like, well, if something bad happens to this woman, is Theodore responsible? Right? Like, these kinds of, like, big kind of morality questions. And then, like, if Martin isn't quite what he says he is, is he, like, where does he fall on, like, a moral spectrum? Like, so what's really happening here is, you know, I talked at the beginning about these, like, nobody here is a criminal, but these kind of big picture questions about, like, how work and skills and being a kind of fixer of sorts. The, The. The way that gets tangled up in how romance happens, in truth, in power, in the way the world works. And it's. It's. It's great. I mean, it is my favorite of her, of her books for many reasons, and not. Not the least one of these.
- [72:20]
Jennifer Prokop
All right, I am going to talk about. Well, you're gonna have to just pre order it, everybody. It is not out yet. It's not actually out till October, but it's really perfect for this. And so that's just how I feel. Okay, so it's called Cowboy It's Cold Outside by Maisie Yates. And this is the 12th book in a series of which I have read now this one. And in this book, what I was really interested in is, okay, so Sheena is the heroine and Denver is the hero, and they live in Oregon. And he and his family own, along with three other families, essentially have like, kind of combined their holdings into this, like, Four Corners Ranch. And she has always been sort of on the outside of this because her father was essentially like, in cahoots with his dad and they were both doing crimes. And Denver has spent his essentially an almost entire adult life since her father's death trying to make up to the people in their town, make up to his siblings, make up to everybody for just how terrible his own father was. And he has done this in a lot of ways. And the reason it's. I'm sure people who are, like, reading, who've read all of these books were like, you airdropped into the last one where we've probably seen for 11 books, Denver be tortured, right, and distant and cold and nobody knows why. And it turns out it's because he, along with one of the. One of his brothers actually, like, did, like, was running drugs with her dad or what, like, were like, you know, heavies, like, sort of collecting money from the people in the town. And, you know, he really believed his father's stories about what essentially, like, good guys they were until. Until Sheena's father died. And then he, all of a sudden, like, the blinders are all ripped off, right? And he's like, oh, my God, I was a bad guy and I didn't realize it. And he has been doing penance for this ever since. And the way. But what was very particularly interesting to me is the Way that he had been doing penance was through work, right? Like, so he actually is a very gifted. He can count cards. So he was like, was on the professional poker circuit. He made a lot of money to essentially like plow back into like this sort of collective. He raised his brothers. He, you know, and now they are all married and they are all having kids and everybody is like happy and everything is great and wonderful and everything he has ever wanted has essentially like come into fruition. And he is panicking. He doesn't know how to not work. And Sheena, on the other hand, had essentially something similar happen. Her mother wasn't in the picture when her father died. She was 18 and she had three younger sisters. And she like stepped in essentially to raise them. And now they are sort of all off and on their own and in college. And it turns out that essentially for years, Denver has essentially been paying money to anybody in the town he thought his father was hurting, including her family. And she used to it to like raise the. Raise her sisters and send them to college. And now she's an empty nester. But she's like 31 and she goes to Denver and she's like, what? I feel like I owe you. And he's like, no, I owe you. My father is terrible, right? And what she wants to do is open up like a bar that has like ax throwing. It's like very specific. It's really cute. And you're kind of like, this is so random.
- [76:28]
Sarah MacLean
He has a plan, she has a plan.
- [76:30]
Jennifer Prokop
And what she wants to do essentially is she's like, I want you to help me open it up. I have, you know, I'll. And then when it's a success, I want to open up essentially like a second location. And I will leave you this location essentially as payment for all of the money that you poured into my family. And what's really interesting about both of them is how because of the responsibilities heaped on them at such a young age, they are both just like, all I do is work. And now they don't have that work anymore. The work was raising the family. The work was like making it so that their siblings could have good lives. And they know that, right, like kind of in their heads, but in their hearts, they do not know it. And the that fact, fact that they both have this like, terrible urge, like a need to just like, keep working, keep working, keep working. And I found, I found it very emotional when they finally were able to sort of like talk to each other about like how and why they feel that way and how it was similar or different. And, you know, the idea of, like, transferring the caretaking that they had focused on their siblings and the caretaking for, like, a lover or. Right. Like a relationship, and they don't know how to do this. And it really did feel to me. I was really won over by it. And I just found the whole idea of, like, how many people use work to both earn love and prove their love. And then, like, what do you do when you meet somebody who has that exact same pathology? Right. But in particular for Denver, the way that, like, patriarchy teaches men, like, if you're a good provider, that's how you show love for your family.
- [78:30]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah, right.
- [78:31]
Jennifer Prokop
It was. I thought it was great. So anyway, I was really. I really found it to be a really interesting way of exploring, like, work, the idea of, like, being a workaholic, but to fill, like, a. An emotional void or, like, guilt almost. So that's cowboy. It's cold outside.
- [78:56]
Sarah MacLean
Okay, so I want to talk about fixers who fuck up. As you all know, we are big Chris and Callahan fans. This podcast we've avowed. Jen really likes the particular character.
- [79:11]
Jennifer Prokop
Scotty. It's fine.
- [79:13]
Sarah MacLean
Scotty. Okay. But I want to talk about Kristin's Darkest London series, which is. Listen.
- [79:22]
Jennifer Prokop
Oh, that's good.
- [79:23]
Sarah MacLean
I can't believe I haven't talked about Darkest London in, like, years. Because if you like Romantasy, boy, do I have a series for you. Okay, so this is book. I don't know what of the series. And honestly, I'll tell you, I read this book first, and then I went back and I read all the others, and I'm, you know, obviously pretty brilliant, but I. But if I could catch on. You could do. There's no question. So, okay, this book is called Evernight. And prior to this book, Will Thorne, the hero of this book, who is part human, part demon, has had his heart ripped from his chest.
- [80:08]
Jennifer Prokop
Literally.
- [80:09]
Sarah MacLean
And in order. Listen, this is all I want from his. From. From fantasy or paranormal. Like, I need it to be like his heart has been pulled out of his chest. Also, before I. Claire, before I lay out the plot of this book, everybody, I want you to just know that, like, when I talk about a book needing conflict, this is the kind of work that I'm looking for you to do in your books, okay? He has his heart ripped from his chest. And Holly Evernight, in that prior book, was brought in to build him a clockwork heart to keep him alive, which was then implanted into his chest. Have you read this Series.
- [80:50]
Jennifer Prokop
I have read this book, I think, and one other one, but I can't remember the title of it. The lady with the Streaming Hair.
- [80:58]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah. I mean, who can even say? So, okay, so here's. Here we go. So Holly built this heart, and it is beating. It is magical. It's a mat. It's a clockwork magical heart, and it is in his chest and it is keeping him alive. However, something is going terribly wrong. And what is going wrong at this point, they discover is that Will's heart is slowly turning his whole body to metal and he's gonna die. Okay? Now, Will has never met Holly, but he's like, fuck this person who is slowly killing me with their pseudo magical heart that seems to be broken and also killing me. And he goes looking for her to exact his revenge on her. Because if he's gonna die, fine, but he's gonna take her down with him. Except when they meet, he discovers that Holly is what's called an elemental meaning. Meaning that she can command metal and keep it, basically by laying her hands on him. It's so perfect, she can push the metal back, like, basically, like force the metal back to the heart and keep him alive. So, like, basically she can keep him alive if she stays with him, right? And this is because. Because she is simultaneously a genius. Like, she has created this heart that is powerful enough to keep him alive, and also it is so powerful that it will kill him. Right? So she is really balancing these two realities of, like, Holly Evernight, genius metalworker, and also like Holly Evernight, who is going to kill this man.
- [82:53]
Jennifer Prokop
Man.
- [82:55]
Sarah MacLean
So what actually happens is she has to stay with him. This is like sort of intense forced proximity. Forced proximity in, like, the most important way. Because if Holly leaves him for any length of time, Will will die. Like, she end. She needs to be touching all the time.
- [83:15]
Jennifer Prokop
It's. There's only one body.
- [83:17]
Sarah MacLean
Listen, right? But then, because conflict, conflict, conflict. Kristen knows the job. At some point, it becomes clear that, like, by essentially, like, denying the. The work of the metal heart, denying the way the heart wants to move, she is killing herself. Like, she is losing her own magic. And so she might save him, but will she save Will and lose herself? And then, of course, he goes off the rails when he figures this out, because they love each other. Obviously. Like, he is feeling big feelings and there is. I mean, like, it is emotional. This might be, as you all know, I am like, I. Like, I do not cry. Like, I have a heart of stone cold ice. But this is a book where I Like, there is a moment in this book that really makes you tear up where Will is. Like, you don't understand. Like, I would. I would have this heart that is making me die a million times over because it brought me you. And it is. It's real good. But here's like, the sort of. It's. Because it's in fantasy, right. And you can dial everything up to 11. What's really going on here is Kristen is sort of asking this question about, like, is work. Is doing the work in this book worth it in the long run? Like, is, how has your work as a fixer, how has Holly's existence as this kind of, like, handmaiden to the baddies sort of in this world? How has that impacted her and made it so that love ultimately is in the balance?
- [85:08]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. That is a great book. I was thinking about it the other day, and I can't remember why, but I love that book.
- [85:14]
Sarah MacLean
It's a great book. You should start right from the beginning of the series. I mean, if you read from book one all the way through, you're gonna have a great time. Oh, wait. I do want to say. Can I just name check a couple other books that I think that. I think people like Fixers specifically, but Fixers we've talked about. Kennedy Ryan's Queen Move is a. Is a fixer book, and it's terrific. And everybody's heard me talk about it. I love it. Helen K. Diamond has a book called the Fixer.
- [85:50]
Jennifer Prokop
Exactly.
- [85:51]
Sarah MacLean
I was gonna say that if you've never read a Helen Kay book, she writes romantic suspense. And those books slap, as the kids say, like, that they are really fun. Helen Kay knows how to write a story that the Fixer is. I mean, you'll.
- [86:06]
Jennifer Prokop
I really like the Fixer. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't feel as. I didn't. I think people probably realized I didn't feel quite as beholden to, like, the idea of, like, the Fixer. But I was thinking that it'd be worthwhile for me to mention that S.J. tilly series, the alliance series, because those are all, in particular, I think, the book King, which is the second book. He's always been essentially, like, in the background. Like, Nero's been, like, the front man for their criminal enterprise. And then, like, Nero gets married, and then he, like, in an effort, he's, like, kind of fixing a problem for his sister, which is that her husband was cheating on her. And the heroine, like, walks in on him, like, doing the. Doing the murder, like, doing this killing, and he forces her to marry him. And I don't think I had clocked it as much the first time around, but the second time around I was like, oh, I think he's just like, well, if Nero got married, I get to get married too. Like a sort of like almost. And it was really interesting because I think he is a really interesting character who like a lot of fixers, of course, are always like on the behind the scenes. Right. And he is, I think, reckoning with how to like come out and be more openly sort of. Right. Like someone who is part of the alliance. So, yeah, I think.
- [87:36]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah.
- [87:37]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, that was another one I wanted to just mention.
- [87:41]
Sarah MacLean
Well, everybody, we're back. Fademates Live was amazing. Thanks to everybody who came out the. I, I don't know where the recording is, but I did deliver it with. I delivered it to Eric. So we'll see what happens there. Stay tuned. Stay tuned for that. We're coming up on the we're almost the end of the season, which is incredible. So stick with us until we'll we'll be ending the season in August and then we're going to take two weeks off in September. So we are very excited to have you all with us. Thanks to everybody who came out on tour thanks to everybody who came out on tour and said, oh my God, I didn't know you had a podcast. I hope you're with us now. And this is Fated mates. I'm Sarah McLean. I'm here with my friend Jen Proko. We are Fated Mates and you can find us every Wednesday wherever you get your podcasts and@fatedmates.net where if you click on Show Notes, you'll see a list of all the books we talked about this week and you will see a list of all the things we talked about in Show Notes. Also there you'll find all the advertisers for this week's episode and you can click and find everybody's books. You can also find us online at Instagram, on threads and on Bluesky. And we are in. We are resurrecting Faded States of Everybody. We've. I heard you. We've heard you talking about that and asking questions. Fated States is coming back in the fall. In the meantime, learn more about our partnership with the States project and regional elections and local elections and state level legislators on fademates.net fadedstate thanks, everybody.
- [89:37]
Jennifer Prokop
We love you.
- [89:38]
Sarah MacLean
Bye.
- [89:59]
Jennifer Prokop
It.