← Fated Mates - Romance Books for Novel People
Fated Mates - Romance Books for Novel People
BONUS: Fated Mates All Stars talk Heated Rivalry
01:05:15
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- [00:00]
Joanna Shupe
We are feeling. How are we doing?
- [00:03]
Joanna Shu
We are not well, but, like, also happy.
- [00:07]
Joanna Shupe
Like, I want. I've been in so many chat groups with this show and, like, the overwhelming reaction of everyone and it's. All of them are people that have been romance readers for a long time. A lot.
- [00:19]
Jennifer Prokop
Wait, should we introduce ourselves? Fram.
- [00:23]
Joanna Shupe
Oh, should we do that? Or should we just jump in? Like, we assume this is just a conversation we've been having.
- [00:28]
Joanna Shu
Just three.
- [00:29]
Jennifer Prokop
I was like, you are putting it live on ye olde Internet. So.
- [00:34]
Joanna Shu
Yes, you start.
- [00:36]
Jennifer Prokop
I will start. I am Jennifer Prokop, the co host of the Fated mates podcast, a romance novel podcast. And so we're gonna talk about romance today.
- [00:45]
Joanna Shupe
I'm Joanna Shu, and I am a romance writer and Shane and Ilya's adoptive mother.
- [00:51]
Jennifer Prokop
I don't know. We are their moms for sure. Yeah.
- [00:55]
Joanna Shupe
Oh, my God. Yeah.
- [00:57]
Joanna Shu
I'm Joanna Shue, historical romance author. He did Rivalry Stan. Not as long as Adrianna, but pretty close to the beginning.
- [01:08]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [01:10]
Joanna Shupe
Students surpass the master in this one because although I think I came back, like, I think. I think you were more attuned to the development of the show updates. I don't think I locked in until right before the shout came out.
- [01:24]
Joanna Shu
I think I lost my mind when I saw the trailer.
- [01:27]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes.
- [01:27]
Joanna Shu
I was real, real skeptical. And then I saw the trailer, and it was like, oh, we're on. Like, this is happening.
- [01:34]
Joanna Shupe
See what's so funny?
- [01:35]
Jennifer Prokop
So everybody this, like, famously, I'm not a TV watcher. Right. Like, I like joke. I'm like, I watch one show a year, and so. And I watched three this year, which is, like, really weird for me. I watched Reacher and Murderbot in the show. I also was like, oh, has it been a book I read? I guess I'll watch your show. So, like, the fact that I not only, like, watch this show, but have, as you said, seven different group chats. I'm a total fan. Girl is completely wild. That's how.
- [02:01]
Joanna Shupe
Right.
- [02:01]
Jennifer Prokop
Like, I mean, like, we're really coming to it from way different. Yeah. Like, even, like, TV watching Praxis. Yeah.
- [02:09]
Joanna Shupe
And we're big, too. And, I mean, Joanna and I have, like, shows that we have had this. Like, she and I are both very big gilded age fans since the first season came out, and we check in with each other when the season's on. But, I mean, I think the thing with the show is that it's actually. Someone said, I think it was like, Ira Madison. It's been really interesting to see gay men who Are like, cultural critics, like, people that I have, you know, have followed for a long time, kind of like, come into romance in this way, because really, they are coming into a romance adaptation with a romance adaptation that is exceptional and a standout in every way that I. I could possibly imagine.
- [02:53]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [02:54]
Joanna Shupe
And I think that is why you. Because to me, this. He said that it doesn't feel like an adaptation. It feels like creative interpretation of a work of fiction.
- [03:04]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [03:04]
Joanna Shupe
Like, it's so close to the text and the beats of the romance are so close to. To the story that it almost is like you're watching a romance novel.
- [03:17]
Jennifer Prokop
It was really interesting. We had Julia Whelan on the podcast right before Sarah's book came out.
- [03:22]
Joanna Shupe
Right.
- [03:23]
Jennifer Prokop
Storms came out, and one of the things she said that was, like, fascinating. She's like, for most authors, right. The audiobook is, like, the first and most faithful adaptation of your work. Right. And it's, like, a really interesting way to think about audiobooks, but I am not used to. And I don't. I'm not a person who feels like an adaptation has to be, like, Right. Like, perfect in order to be good. Right. Like, but in this case, like, the adaptation is so faithful to the text and the. And, like, all of the social media that, like, really honored the way it was faithful to the text. Right. Like, all of those great videos that, like, the heated rivalry crave Instagram put out that was like, you know, it's showing them on the beach, and then, like, you'd see, like, the actual book below it. So, you know, that's the part, I think, that as a romance reader and someone who has read and loved Heated Reveley, thanks to you, Adriana. That's a part that was, like, really interesting to me is seeing people, like, not even really understanding, like, what the show was doing because they don't know the genre as well. Right. Like, it's just.
- [04:28]
Joanna Shu
Well. And let's be fair, like, we've been.
- [04:31]
Jennifer Prokop
Burned adaptations so many times.
- [04:34]
Joanna Shu
So many times.
- [04:35]
Joanna Shupe
Yeah.
- [04:36]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [04:36]
Joanna Shu
So, you know, to feel what. To see one that gets it right is just. I can't describe it.
- [04:46]
Joanna Shupe
It's the possibility for me. Right. Because I was. I mean, I have. We have done. We have done this so many times where, like, a book you've loved or whatever has been adapted and it really sucks out the life and all the things that you love about that book, especially with romance. And to me, like, the possibility of, like, wow, you can actually do it.
- [05:08]
Joanna Shu
You can do it.
- [05:08]
Joanna Shupe
You can actually do it and give it, like, Breathe life into it. And it feels like. Like you're like. All the things that I love as a romance reader that show gave me. And even the departures from the book just enhanced.
- [05:29]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. Amplified. Yeah.
- [05:31]
Joanna Shupe
The experience for me. And that is. I honestly, like, when we were watching it kind of like, we all watch it kind of around the same time last night, the last episode, and I. I was, like, undone. Like, I was not well.
- [05:45]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [05:46]
Joanna Shupe
From, like, this is really tapping into something that is the place in me that loves romance novels more than anything.
- [05:58]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes. Yeah. Like, I think a good romance novel should make you feel the way this show made you feel.
- [06:06]
Joanna Shupe
Right.
- [06:06]
Jennifer Prokop
And that's the part, like, I'm chasing that high with every. Every book I try, every book I. And I think the thing that's interesting, like, in terms of, like, so years ago, when I think probably like, when Bridgerton came on, I was interviewed by a woman. I think her name's Lauren Sarner at, like, the New York Post about sort of, like, the romance of it all. And one of the things I said and I really like at that point and up until the show kind of believed it to be true, is that, like, potentially one of the reasons romance novel adaptations is so bad, are so bad is because, like, like television as a medium, I was kind of like, maybe television as a medium is fundamentally at odds with romance as a medium because the romance, like, right. So everybody, if you don't know the promise of a romance novel is that it's going to end in either an hea happily ever after or what we would call, like, what he did. Rivalry is Right. And hfn happy for now they are together. They are. It's us against the world. Like, we figured out we are in a good place. We're literally, in this case, we are moving forward together. In the car, right? The car, yes. Right.
- [07:14]
Joanna Shupe
Jacob Tierney.
- [07:16]
Jennifer Prokop
Oh, brilliant. Right. But like, in a TV show, right, like, if it's popular and good, all of a sudden, it's like a cliffhanger. It's gonna break people up. It's gonna. What is it that. Right, like, everything about tv, especially, like, at some point, right, Six, seven seasons into Buffy, it's like, how are we gonna get people back? How are we going to. Right. Break whatever is happening? Whereas romance novels are about repair. How are we going to. I, up until this show really was like, I. They're going to be bad because what TV does is different than what romance does.
- [07:52]
Joanna Shu
And we want to. We want to see them bang.
- [07:55]
Joanna Shupe
And. And the thing. Sorry, right, Like, I was. I mean, I. I've been like, kind of very, like. I mean, we've been opining a lot on the online about it, and one of the things that I was. Someone was saying, like, as a TV producer or something, and he's like, I just don't understand how this has worked so well. And I'm like, the thing about it is that, like, romance story beats are organically cinematic.
- [08:21]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes.
- [08:21]
Joanna Shupe
Like, there are built in highs, there are built moments of tensions, there are built in lows, there are built in moments of, like, climax that really, in the right hands, a romance novel, a good romance novel, delivers everything that you need for a story to be cinematic.
- [08:41]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes.
- [08:41]
Joanna Shupe
And I think that is where. Because I. A lot of like. I mean, like the Bridgerton seasons, I watched all of them. Queen Charlotte is my favorite, but I watched all of them and to me, probably Queen Charlotte is the one that has come the closest to delivering the feelings that he delivered. And I think a lot of it is the chemistry between the actors. Like, Hudson and Connor are.
- [09:06]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [09:07]
Joanna Shupe
Stars.
- [09:08]
Joanna Shu
Stars. Lightning in a bottle.
- [09:10]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes.
- [09:11]
Joanna Shupe
It really is. I think, like, part of what will be. Like, what. One of the things that I've been thinking a lot about is what happens now because this feels like a cultural shift. And of course, the algorithms are what they are.
- [09:22]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [09:23]
Joanna Shupe
But, like, the possibility of what this. There's so much great romance out there. Right. Like, you know, Heated Rivalry is one of my favorite books. I actually truly believe it probably is the best sports romance I've ever read. Like, it is so, like, the love story is so tied to the, like, their jobs that it's actually, like, as a. Like, as a sports romance, I don't think you can get better than Heated rivalry.
- [09:48]
Joanna Shu
Agreed.
- [09:49]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, 100%.
- [09:51]
Joanna Shupe
But, like, I don't know how, like, there's so much potential of so many different romance novels that deliver the same kind of feeling to me as a reader. But. But, like, it is like, that piece of, like, this feels like the perfect storm. Like, this person, Jacob Tierney, like, loved the books, is a fan, saw the value in the audiences. Like, he's talked about reading and thinking about, like, there is a captive audience there that reads this book and loves them. Like, how can I make this show for them?
- [10:27]
Joanna Shu
Right.
- [10:28]
Joanna Shupe
And then there's two kids, Source, like Hudson and Connor, that I just like Magic.
- [10:35]
Jennifer Prokop
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
- [10:38]
Joanna Shu
Who also respect the Source.
- [10:39]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. Yes.
- [10:40]
Joanna Shu
So much. There's just a level of respect across the board with everybody. I think that worked on it that we just don't see. In, in romance projects.
- [10:51]
Jennifer Prokop
You know, it's funny because I like, I. I've been posting a couple things about the show. Mostly I like repost people in reply, but I, I really have like a hard time with like smut. It's just smut, right? And then there was like this great moment in like the cottage episode, right? Where Ilya says something like, you know, like, you just like to be bad and Shane's like, you know, that's not what this is. Right? It. Maybe it was at first, but it's not now and it hasn't been for a long time. And if I was the type of person who like had the know how that I would be like, it's just smut onto like threads and blue sky. And then put like that scene because like the thing that this, the thing that romance also delivers. Right, again, is like feelings. Romance is about feelings. Yes. And everything is leading up to the feelings that you are supposed to have as you are watching. And every single tool in the toolbox of like people's interpersonal relationships, sex, Right. Like any kind of intimacy, conversation, touch, love, all of that is driving you towards a certain feeling. That's why it's such a great adaptation. Right. The moments where, I mean, Hudson, the way Hudson could act, like just show what he was feeling with his eyes.
- [12:14]
Joanna Shu
I mean, crazy.
- [12:16]
Jennifer Prokop
That is such a hallmark of romance. Right. Like, and I never thought I would be able to see that. Like in a romance novel. It's kind of like something you look into someone's eyes and then you see everything written in their face. Yeah.
- [12:29]
Joanna Shupe
And eyes walling up. Like.
- [12:33]
Joanna Shu
I mean, when they were rubbing feet on the couch. I mean.
- [12:39]
Joanna Shupe
No, what, what? Bury me right here. Put my, you know, be sitting in between their feet when you have the.
- [12:50]
Joanna Shu
The call back under the table where they slide their feet together, which is the call back to the. Sure.
- [12:56]
Jennifer Prokop
First press conference.
- [12:57]
Joanna Shupe
I mean, and then the moment when like, okay, we're talking about the last episode now.
- [13:05]
Jennifer Prokop
There's no.
- [13:05]
Joanna Shupe
So there's a lot of spoilers. Sorry. And so, so there's the moment where, you know, Ilya comes to the cottage and he's like giving him the tour and like basically the dialogue there is like word for word, the dialogue from the book. And he's like, no, I want the room with the king size bed, whatever. And they get into Shane's room and they start making out and it's like a exact parallel to that first time they made out where they were like in darkness.
- [13:32]
Joanna Shu
Yeah.
- [13:33]
Joanna Shupe
And then, you know, husband starts Trying to put the. Or Shane starts to like lowering the, the shades and alias. Like, no, like we're doing this in the, in the light.
- [13:45]
Joanna Shu
Can we just have a moment of appreciation for the bellboy, like, exchange, like, right, I died.
- [13:53]
Joanna Shupe
And again like every departure from the original source just made everything better. Yeah, yeah.
- [14:02]
Jennifer Prokop
Okay. I were just obviously talking out of order. This isn't like a straight recap. I was really interested though in the change to why Shane's dad was in Shane's cottage. Right.
- [14:13]
Joanna Shu
Oh, instead of dishwasher tablets.
- [14:14]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. Great. So, okay, in the book he's like, I'm. I need dishwashers. Yeah. Far for the store. And I was kind of. And so in this one he's like, I. It was a phone charger and I was like, sir, you're just like being a sneak. Like, because how you, how have you been charging your phone for days? Right. Like, so I did think to myself, is this the parents just being like checking in on Shane? Right. Like, and then like in the last episode where he's like, I am a fully grown adult. Like there are ways in which like they clearly still baby him.
- [14:47]
Joanna Shupe
Right.
- [14:47]
Jennifer Prokop
So I did, I did find myself wondering if that was if we were, you know, or if I'm just overthinking.
- [14:52]
Joanna Shupe
I mean, as a parent of an only child, probably we're just checking in on him.
- [14:56]
Jennifer Prokop
Right. You feel that way.
- [14:57]
Joanna Shupe
He had a concussion.
- [14:59]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, he was a silent meditation retreat.
- [15:04]
Joanna Shupe
Exactly. No, I mean, well, there is the.
- [15:06]
Joanna Shu
In the All Star game where he, the parents don't come and he says, I didn't feel like being managed this weekend.
- [15:11]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes.
- [15:12]
Joanna Shu
So, yeah, I would probably say you're right.
- [15:16]
Jennifer Prokop
And also in the. Now there's also another interesting thing in the book. When Shane and Ilya go into his parents house, it's clear to Shane that, that his dad has told his mom.
- [15:26]
Joanna Shupe
Yeah.
- [15:27]
Jennifer Prokop
And this was played more like she was like, tell us what? Like she, like he was like, like Shane himself sort of stumbling to like.
- [15:34]
Joanna Shupe
Get the words out.
- [15:35]
Jennifer Prokop
Right. Yeah. And that maybe he hadn't told her. So I did think that some of that scene was different in a way that like kind of was interesting, especially as it sort of put, I don't know, like I was really moved by his mom apologizing. Yes.
- [15:51]
Joanna Shu
Yeah.
- [15:51]
Jennifer Prokop
Asking for forgiveness and understanding that she had been the impediment to Shane telling his parents. Right. And him saying, I forgive you, mom. I mean, I really was. I, I made a list of times I cried and that was on it.
- [16:06]
Joanna Shu
Yeah, for sure. When he was like Apollo when he was apologizing.
- [16:09]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes.
- [16:10]
Joanna Shu
Saying, I. I really tried. I'm really sorry. I really.
- [16:13]
Joanna Shupe
I mean, oh, my God, that was heartbreaking. I mean, I think honestly, like, part of, like, there's always this discourse around, you know, a lot of. Mm. Romance that's out there. It's written by women, by CIS women. Some are queer, some are not. Rachel specifically is bisexual. But, like, there is a lot of discourse around where it's an accurate representation of the gay, you know, of a.
- [16:41]
Jennifer Prokop
Gay.
- [16:43]
Joanna Shupe
Like a gay man's, like, lived experience. But to me it's really interesting, like the, the. The kind of combination of like Rachel's work and then Jacob as a gay man of a certain age.
- [17:00]
Jennifer Prokop
Right.
- [17:00]
Joanna Shupe
He's like in his 40s, so he's like around my same age, which means he kind of came of age around the same time I did, which was like, right on the heels of the AIDS pandemic and like, really being able to like, see this. This piece of fiction and like, really take it and do such a faithful but like, loving interpretation of these boys and like, they're coming out, like, they're coming out story. Like, it, it's just so moving. Like, to me, like.
- [17:30]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, the.
- [17:31]
Joanna Shupe
I mean, it's so sexy too. Like the book, like, the. That series. To me, I have never seen sex on screen. That did more for me in terms of the feelings. Yeah. Then. Then this show, and I really do believe a lot of it is obviously the environment, how it was shot. Like the way they shot the cinematography of the show is a revelation to me.
- [17:58]
Joanna Shu
Yeah.
- [17:58]
Joanna Shupe
It was so close. Like, whenever they said something important, the camera were right there, right in their face.
- [18:05]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, well.
- [18:06]
Joanna Shupe
And I think with them.
- [18:08]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, well, I think this is something too. Like, sex on screen is typically. It's like, it's violent. Right. It's sexual violence. It's titillating. It's for like, the purposes of kind of like the audience and this sex was all about them. Like, I mean, it feels almost like you're. You're a voyeur in the room because they're so locked in on each other. But like, the way that, like the evolution. I mean, it's like if you can't see the evolution of their sex from, like, hooking up to being in love, then I. You just. I don't know what you are watching. Right. Like, that's how you know. I don't. I just literally what we're. I don't know what you were watching, but it wasn't what I was watching.
- [18:45]
Joanna Shupe
Right.
- [18:46]
Joanna Shu
But we always say, you know, the sex scenes have to move the plot forward. And in every case in the show, it did.
- [18:53]
Joanna Shupe
And to me, part of it is like. I mean, part of what a romance novel does. It gives you the inside. Right? Like, it gives you, like, there's a. There's a juxtaposition between what is said and then what's going on inside. And, like, that's where, like, all the big feelings happen. It's like we're actually in their heads and we know what they're thinking.
- [19:12]
Joanna Shu
There was.
- [19:13]
Joanna Shupe
There's a scene in episode six from the book, which is one of my favorite, like, interior moments of Shane in the books, where they're talking about, like, his parents or, like, eating hamburgers or whatever, and Ilya starts asking about Shane's parents. And in Shane's head, like, Shane asks him, like, do you want to meet them? And Ilya's like, maybe. And in Shane's head, he's like, that's something he's been obsessing over. Like, yeah, he has fantasies of Ilia just meeting his parents and, like, seeing the people that he loves the most in the same room together.
- [19:52]
Joanna Shu
Yeah.
- [19:52]
Joanna Shupe
And, like, he has this, like, beautiful, like, internal, like, kind of moment of just like, I love this man so much, and, like, my parents don't know that he and I have this, and I just want to see it happen. And, you know, there's no way that they could have made that, rendered that in the show.
- [20:15]
Joanna Shu
Right.
- [20:16]
Jennifer Prokop
Right.
- [20:16]
Joanna Shupe
But Hudson and Connor were just so effective as Shane and Ilya that I didn't feel like we didn't have the gravity of, like, where they were with each other. Like, they were just so locked into each other at that point that I. You could feel a lot of the things that, like, we could not possibly have.
- [20:39]
Joanna Shu
Yeah.
- [20:40]
Joanna Shupe
From the books.
- [20:44]
Jennifer Prokop
I was really, like. I think the thing that's also, in terms of, like, the whole show, I was really interested in, like, how masterful it was. Like, every episode's really different. Like, when you think about, like, for example, the beginning of episode four, right? Where it's like the, like, long scene where it's, like, you see them, like, hitting the boards and then the montage, Right. Like, and it's. Everything's just, like, sped up. Everything's so fast. Right. Like, the super cuts about, like, six months later, 20. You know what I mean? Boom, boom, boom. Time, time, time, time. And then they get to the cottage, and it's just, like, luxuriating, and it's just Them. And one of the things that's also really interesting is, like, you know, you see, Shane is so, like, fucking wound so tight for most of the.
- [21:32]
Joanna Shupe
And then.
- [21:33]
Jennifer Prokop
Then when they get there, he's the one who knows actually how to relax.
- [21:37]
Joanna Shu
Yes.
- [21:38]
Joanna Shupe
Right.
- [21:38]
Jennifer Prokop
Like, when they're looking in the fire and Ellie's like, I'm just supposed to look at it? He's like, yes. And I thought, like, that was the part too, where you just realize, like, this is what these two deserve. Right. They've never had this opportunity to just be with each other.
- [21:54]
Joanna Shu
Right.
- [21:55]
Jennifer Prokop
And I am sure that there are people who were watching and thinking, oh, they're gonna have a fight, or they're not gonna. You know what I mean? And instead, it's like, every moment is them, just like. And when Shane says, like, let's promise to be honest with each other about how we feel, I mean, then that's the thing. Like, the timing of this episode feels so different. Like, nothing is weighing on them.
- [22:16]
Joanna Shupe
Yeah.
- [22:16]
Jennifer Prokop
And I just found that, like, Right. Like, the storytelling overall through the. Through all six episodes, like. Right. Leads us to a place where, like, we just get them out of time. Literally. Right. Yeah. And just, like, sun soaked. There's no closet anymore. They're literally living in a glass house, you know? And I just thought it was so beautiful, like, Right. Like, the way that, like, the sun was on their faces. And I mean, I just was like. It was literally beautiful. Right?
- [22:49]
Joanna Shupe
Yeah. Oh, no. The choices that, like, around Joanna's, like.
- [22:55]
Joanna Shu
What am I gonna say? I can't. I just really can't.
- [22:59]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, you really. You love this, right?
- [23:02]
Joanna Shu
I did. Yeah, I did. I have a whole, like, list of, like, moments that, you know, I just absolutely loved. I mean, you know, we got like, the stupid Canadian wolf bird. I mean, you know, the call with Hayden, which really, I wasn't sure they were gonna do.
- [23:23]
Jennifer Prokop
So many children, like.
- [23:25]
Joanna Shupe
I know, sir.
- [23:27]
Joanna Shu
It's a problem for real, because he.
- [23:29]
Jennifer Prokop
Had four at the beginning of whatever, five kids.
- [23:33]
Joanna Shu
I mean, slow it. Slow it down, buddy.
- [23:36]
Jennifer Prokop
That was another difference, though, because in the book, Hayden does know that Shane is gay and figures out that it's Ilia, right? No, not on that end.
- [23:45]
Joanna Shupe
Right, But.
- [23:46]
Jennifer Prokop
No, but that's. Right, but, like, that was another difference I'm saying. Right. Like, there.
- [23:49]
Joanna Shupe
Well, by the point of that call, he. No.
- [23:52]
Jennifer Prokop
Right. But I. I think in the epilogue.
- [23:54]
Joanna Shupe
It was the epilogue. Yeah.
- [23:56]
Jennifer Prokop
Okay.
- [23:57]
Joanna Shupe
In the book, there is a. There's a final scene where they're giving, like, a press conference to announce the charity that they're going to be doing together. And then by that point, Hayden does know.
- [24:08]
Joanna Shu
Yeah. Because in the game, there's a. They have the. The game. And he says, I can't believe he's your. And you know, Shane says, shut it. He's like, I'm gonna punch him if he doesn't cool it. And like, Ilya, of course, gets punched in the face for the press conference and has a black eye for the press conference.
- [24:24]
Joanna Shupe
But we don't see that on the page.
- [24:26]
Joanna Shu
No.
- [24:26]
Joanna Shupe
Right. Reference to it. Right. Yeah.
- [24:29]
Joanna Shu
Did you guys notice the flannel shirt?
- [24:32]
Joanna Shupe
Yes.
- [24:32]
Joanna Shu
Swap. Yes, I was.
- [24:34]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes.
- [24:35]
Joanna Shupe
Shane was wearing Ilya's shirt. Or Elliot.
- [24:37]
Joanna Shu
Yeah.
- [24:38]
Joanna Shupe
Yeah.
- [24:39]
Joanna Shu
I mean, what a touch.
- [24:41]
Joanna Shupe
There's. There's so much like romance, like, romance reader coded the glasses. Itty things in this show.
- [24:50]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [24:50]
Joanna Shupe
And I think it's like I was trying to figure it out. Right. Because I mean, I was like, is it that, like, he has somehow has found a shorthand? But I think Jacob Tierney is a person who can understand, like, who is attuned to the things that make romance reading 84. Like, I think he gets those delicious things that we think are delicious. Like that moment Leah's sitting on the rock and the sun's coming up and Shane brings them the coffee. Coffee and the blanket. And it's just like a little moment. But that is just like romance reader.
- [25:32]
Joanna Shu
Yes.
- [25:33]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, absolutely.
- [25:34]
Joanna Shu
I mean, let me die right there next to that rock. Like, I don't need anything else.
- [25:41]
Joanna Shupe
Just leave me here. Like, leave me here. Like, put my headstone here when Ily, let's talk about the I love you. Because I. I really.
- [25:51]
Jennifer Prokop
Another time I cried.
- [25:52]
Joanna Shupe
Yeah.
- [25:52]
Jennifer Prokop
I. We're gonna watch you cry right here, aren't we?
- [25:58]
Joanna Shupe
And then the book is so great. Like, in the moment when they say I love you, like, they are figuring out how they're gonna move forward. Like the, the whole last third of that book or like the whole last 25% of that book when they're at the cottage is like almost like a fast forward. Like, every conversation they have is like, this is how we're gonna do it. Like, you go, you're gonna sign with Ottawa. You're gonna be closer. How are we gonna, like, end this rivalry narrative? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so the, like, the cottage episode also kind of has that same pacing. Like, Shane wakes Ilya up in the middle of the night to be like, this is how we're gonna do it.
- [26:41]
Jennifer Prokop
Right.
- [26:44]
Joanna Shupe
And Ilias, like, starts telling him he loves him in Russia and Starts crying.
- [26:53]
Jennifer Prokop
Amazing.
- [26:54]
Joanna Shu
I can't.
- [26:57]
Joanna Shupe
And says, I love you. And then the I love you back. It just explode. Like, Shane is like, oh, my God. Thank God you said it.
- [27:05]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, I.
- [27:05]
Joanna Shupe
It exploded out of him. That, like, that's the moment where, like, it's like this. Like, this is why I love romance.
- [27:16]
Joanna Shu
Yes.
- [27:17]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes.
- [27:18]
Joanna Shupe
Moments that start, like, why, like, romance is like, the greatest love of my life.
- [27:24]
Joanna Shu
Right. It's like. It's why we do what we do.
- [27:27]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. You know, I think the thing that was also like. So I think one of the things that was really interesting to me is, like, at some point very early on, someone was like, in this. On, like, on threads. Maybe I don't even remember who. It's like, oh, I can read. Heated rivalry. Somebody said there's no third act breakup now. This is like a romance convention every day. I was literally like. I rolled my eyes just like Joanna did. This is a romance, like, plotting convention, like, right. Where essentially, like, you have to test. You have to put your characters through the test. Right. Whether or not you like it or not kind of doesn't matter. But I was like, this is such a funnel. Fundamental misunderstanding of this. This text. Because all they do is break up at the beginning because they cannot be together. Correct. The. The trick of the book, the work, is to put them together in a way where these two finally are like, this is what we want. We are in love. We can talk to each other about our families. We can be at peace with each other. We are out of the spotlight. We are gonna let all that go. That's the work of the book. It is an inverse in many ways of, like, typical romance plotting.
- [28:35]
Joanna Shupe
But one of the things that I think, as someone that had. Writes queer romance and writes queer romance from the point of view, like, how do you make this work in terms of like. Like, queer romance? Telling has a different cadence to it because there is truly the choice between identity and happiness. And like, in romance, in. In romance with straight couples, it is more of. It is. You are again, choosing identity over love. But it's more figurative.
- [29:07]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes.
- [29:08]
Joanna Shupe
It's not a true, literal.
- [29:11]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes.
- [29:11]
Joanna Shupe
For Shane and Ilia, it really is choosing between their lives and the lives that they've been working towards. Like, what they wanted their whole life. And it is. There's a difference cadence to that.
- [29:26]
Joanna Shu
Yeah.
- [29:26]
Joanna Shupe
Because the stakes are palpable throughout. And it's a real, like, life or death. Like identity, like, task. Like, Shane couldn't tell his mother.
- [29:39]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes.
- [29:40]
Joanna Shu
Yeah.
- [29:40]
Jennifer Prokop
Well. And Scott Hunter. I think that's why the other thing that was added, right, is Scott Hunter's speech, at least right to the beginning of this episode. And I think it's like, why that it's like such an important framing device, right, for him to say, like. And I think, like, explicitly name, like, the homophobia of like the National Hockey League. Right. Like, I grew up and I heard how people talked about people, like, I heard how my teammates and other people in hockey talked about people like me.
- [30:07]
Joanna Shu
Yeah.
- [30:08]
Jennifer Prokop
And when he talked about, like, I mean, again, a time I cried, right. How lonely it was for him, how isolating that, like, it doesn't matter if you've achieved like the greatest pinnacle of your sport if you cannot be yourself when that happens. And I think that's why, right. Like when Shane at the end, right. It was really interesting. Shane's dad was like, did you talk to Scott Hunter? Right. And it was illy. Who's like, I did. Right. And it changed something for me, for us. And I think that's really powerful. And I think that's the part about the show. Not every. And like, again, I think a real valid critique is, like, not every romance or queer story should be a coming out story. And I, I think you've written ones that have not been. But I mean, I think that in this case it is. And there's like a really valid reason why they felt like they had to be closeted, which I think the show does a masterful job of showing the pressure of that and like, what it's going to do to them. And even Shane's mom, who was sort of. He couldn't tell her when he, when they were like, yeah, we're just gonna be this way till we're tired. She's like, that's terrible. That's so sad. Right?
- [31:15]
Joanna Shu
Yeah. I think it's interesting that, you know, Rachel has said that she wrote this before she knew sort of any of the romance quote unquote rules. And, you know, this was written when she just was just starting to write and no one ever told her.
- [31:32]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, yeah.
- [31:33]
Joanna Shu
And no one ever told her, oh, no, you can't. You know, this is not how, you know how it's structured.
- [31:40]
Joanna Shupe
It's not right.
- [31:41]
Joanna Shu
This is not the regular structure of a romance. And I think that it's one of the reasons that it works for me so well is because it, it is not a regular structure. Like, I, I mean, I love the way it goes back and forth and the time.
- [31:59]
Joanna Shupe
Because the coming again. And to me, like, I really do think about it and I've talked to both of you many times about this. I think queer romances, of course, they can fold in every convention of like a general, like a. Nor, like a straight romance novel. But the, the storytelling and the pacing is different for a coming out story because the, the breakup and, and like the tension of like losing it all is there. From the beginning.
- [32:27]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes.
- [32:27]
Joanna Shupe
Like from, from the first moment. Every, everything just gets you closer and closer to losing it all. But like, not figuratively, not like you're losing, like, yeah, you're laughing with the lies that you told yourself or whatever. Like all of that is real. But it's also like, you know, like you could be like shunned. Like you could lose your life. Like, it is just, I think just like a different.
- [32:53]
Jennifer Prokop
You could lose your citizenship. I mean, look at like Ilya, I can't go back home. Right, right. Like, that's not. These are real stakes. Yeah, yeah.
- [33:03]
Joanna Shu
No, I mean, it's Shane, like, hello, sir. Why are you not interested? Do you not know? Like, how could you not know?
- [33:11]
Joanna Shupe
And he's like, about Russia.
- [33:13]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. Right.
- [33:15]
Joanna Shupe
One thing that I have really, it's been really beautiful, like one being beautiful to see one like gay man, like really coming into the show initially. Like, I've seen so many. Even one of my best friends who, you know, in the beginning he was like, this is kind of like soft. Corn soft, you know, stuff.
- [33:33]
Jennifer Prokop
Right.
- [33:33]
Joanna Shupe
And I'm like, you should keep watching. And like by episode four, he was.
- [33:40]
Jennifer Prokop
Like, okay, my brother too. Right. I mean, we've never. He, he's not a reader. He's never read a romance. And he was like, I'm really locked in. I was like, yeah.
- [33:48]
Joanna Shupe
By five, like, this is literally like moving like it's like really affected him and like having a scene like older gay men.
- [33:57]
Joanna Shu
Yeah.
- [33:57]
Joanna Shupe
Getting to see this one. So even in the beginning I was telling, like, I was like crying. I'm like, I never thought like, as someone who was like kind of coming of age in the 90s and like really kind of in that space of like the post AIDS pandemic, like, I just didn't think we could ever get to see something like this.
- [34:21]
Joanna Shu
Yeah. It was still don't, don't ask, don't tell. I mean, post Reagan nonsense. I mean. Yeah.
- [34:29]
Joanna Shupe
And it's that thing of like, why don't gay men read more romance? And I'm. And it's part of like, well, they're trapped in the cage of patriarchy too. And like, you don't know, like, it's, I think Part of like you, you don't know what you're allowed to experience, feel, see until it's given to you. Right. Like, I think a lot of gay men are also in this like patriarchy cage where like they, why would they think that they can get to just see a show that's about queer joy when everything we've gotten right is like, you know, they're lovers and then someone dies of AIDS or right, their lovers or their, someone has to go back to their wives or whatever. So I think it is that piece of like this is like revelatory for them too.
- [35:23]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, Yeah.
- [35:25]
Joanna Shu
I have heard from people regarding this show that I have not heard from in a long time and like started text threads about this show with people I haven't talked to in a long time that we have never connected over a TV show like we have with us. I mean, you know, straight women my age, gay men my age. I mean it's just been the community of it all and like the sharing week to week of the joy and like the just the absolute roller coaster ride has been so fun.
- [36:02]
Joanna Shupe
It's been, it feels like collectively like we are and especially after this super shitty year where we feel like we're being like torn to shreds like every time we watch the news or see what's happening. One thing that I wanted to point out and it was something that someone posted that really moved me, it was a younger gay man who said that he like talks to his stepmom. I don't know if you guys saw this. He talks to like his older stepmom who's like a 70 year old woman every week. And he was like talking to her about the show and he was like, it's so weird because like the people that are really into this show are like gay men and like middle aged women. And he was like, well, middle aged women are like, we're in the trenches with, with gay men like during the AIDS pandemic afterward. They've been like the secret keepers, they've been the confidants, they've been the people that have like been the first to hear that, you know, who our friends came out to, who our friends came to after a breakup. And like this is important to them because they've been living through these best friend, they've been in these friendships with men their whole lives.
- [37:16]
Jennifer Prokop
Right.
- [37:16]
Joanna Shupe
And I was like, that was like. I was like, this is true for me personally.
- [37:20]
Joanna Shu
Like for me too.
- [37:21]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [37:22]
Joanna Shupe
You know, I have.
- [37:24]
Jennifer Prokop
Well and I think that person so many friends I Think for our generation too. Right. It's like, it's that, but it's also now a real fear that like our children and their friends and like the generation that follows is going to be back there.
- [37:40]
Joanna Shupe
Yeah.
- [37:41]
Jennifer Prokop
Right. So I mean, I want to say, like, it's not just that, like I have, you know, have this experience with like, friend. Like. Right. Like, it's, it's that, but also. Right. Like, how do I make sure that our kids are the next generation? Gen Z doesn't have to feel this way. Doesn't isn't. You know, because that is the work that is being done in our. In America right now. How can we like strip queer people of their rights? How can we force them back into the closet? How can we make it impossible for trans people to like, exist in our country? And so I think the thing is it's, it's, it's that. But also we have to make sure there's a world. This world exists.
- [38:23]
Joanna Shu
Yeah, right.
- [38:24]
Joanna Shupe
Yeah.
- [38:25]
Jennifer Prokop
And so it's the work too. It's like, what are you gonna do about it? Right. Who are you going to support? What is the organization in your neighborhood that you know, is supporting queer and trans youth or so I mean, I think that's the other thing.
- [38:38]
Joanna Shu
Well, I like, I like a lot of the. I've seen a lot of posts that have. Have said if you're enjoying heated rivalry.
- [38:44]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [38:44]
Joanna Shu
Make sure you're voting with, you know, along the same lines, like you cannot love the queer sex in this show and then vote to take rights away.
- [38:54]
Jennifer Prokop
Right.
- [38:55]
Joanna Shu
Like just off with that nonsense.
- [38:57]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [38:59]
Joanna Shupe
I mean, it will be interesting to see. I mean, I think to me again, and it's hard to know because algorithms are weird, but it does feel to me like this has gone way past like the. Because my algorithm is gay stuff and romance. So like I obviously I'm the person that is.
- [39:16]
Joanna Shu
You're right, right.
- [39:18]
Jennifer Prokop
You're like, I'm in. My ven.
- [39:19]
Joanna Shupe
Diagram is just circle. Like I am literally the demographic. So I, I think for like in the beginning it really felt like, is it.
- [39:27]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. Just us?
- [39:28]
Joanna Shu
Yeah.
- [39:28]
Jennifer Prokop
Right.
- [39:28]
Joanna Shupe
Is it me?
- [39:29]
Jennifer Prokop
Well, at the point when like lift the cards sharing ride sharing company is sending out a thing that's like use the code Shane and Ilya to go to your watch party. It does feel like maybe it's a little bigger than us now.
- [39:42]
Joanna Shupe
It is, you know. Yeah.
- [39:44]
Joanna Shu
Crazy.
- [39:45]
Joanna Shupe
One thing that I will say is like, I. This year's like, I feel like romance is in a really weird place for me as A reader. I think romance is.
- [39:53]
Jennifer Prokop
Agree.
- [39:54]
Joanna Shupe
You know, it's, it's, it's. For the past few years Roman has like had an extreme boom like in terms of readership and like print sales are at an all time high. Like it's really been. But to me as a reader, like I'm having, I'm finding less and less books that deliver for me this experience feeling of euphoria and like the cathartic like romance reading that I.
- [40:24]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes.
- [40:25]
Joanna Shupe
Crave. And I've been doing a lot of rereading because of that. Like I think this year, probably in the last year like at more than like two thirds of what I'm reading is like rereads same 200 books that I just read again and again.
- [40:42]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [40:44]
Joanna Shupe
And it is interesting to me because Heated Rivalry is a seven year old books. A six year old book. Rachel and I debuted at the same time in the Same imprint with MM series in 2019. This book is six years old.
- [40:57]
Jennifer Prokop
Right.
- [41:00]
Joanna Shupe
And I do wonder if this will bring readers into like perhaps going to older books. I think. I mean I'm not saying that there's not great new romance coming out. It just especially in contemporary. Like I, I, I, I miss books like this.
- [41:22]
Joanna Shu
Yes.
- [41:24]
Joanna Shupe
High. The, the, the emotions are just crackling.
- [41:31]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. Dialed up to 11 000.
- [41:35]
Joanna Shu
I mean you could probably name like a dozen books that I mean probably a handful of books in the last three or four years that had this same.
- [41:51]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [41:52]
Joanna Shu
Ride the same feeling.
- [41:54]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [41:55]
Joanna Shu
They're just, they're just not around. I'm not finding them.
- [42:00]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [42:00]
Joanna Shupe
I mean in contemporary I think you could still like there's like, I think historical still has books that are coming out or like think there is like that kind of work being done. But like, and it is true. Like this book just has like, like Rachel was like very smart like at a craft level. And I know it's, I mean it's one, it's one of those books that reads like, it's like I call them the Athena books. Like they feed. They read like they came out.
- [42:30]
Jennifer Prokop
Came out of someone's head.
- [42:31]
Joanna Shupe
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's a handful of books that I have like Lord of Scoundrel is also like an Athena book to me that like.
- [42:39]
Jennifer Prokop
Well, this is what I was telling someone like last night we were at dinner and I was like, you have to understand there's like a handful, handful of romances that like are God. Tier.
- [42:47]
Joanna Shu
Yeah.
- [42:47]
Jennifer Prokop
Right. Literally where everyone who reads them is like this is. And Heated Rivalry is one of them. Lord of Scoundrels is one of them. Right. Where you're just like, these are books that somehow capture. Right. Bet Me, I would say, is probably another one for me where I'm like. I would give. If anyone was like, I think I want to read a romance. I have a handful of books where I'm like, if you don't like this book, then you just don't like romance. Yeah. And he did. Rivalry is one of them. This is a book that is so loved by people who read just. It, like, delivers exactly what a great romance should. And to have a TV show deliver that, too. We never thought we'd get that.
- [43:25]
Joanna Shupe
It's just magic. And it is a special book. It is one of those books that, I mean. And you both know this. Like, I recommend this book.
- [43:33]
Joanna Shu
Yes.
- [43:34]
Joanna Shupe
Constantly. And have for years.
- [43:35]
Jennifer Prokop
We did this episode of Fated Mates because you were like, what is wrong with you, too? You have to do this book. Right.
- [43:43]
Joanna Shupe
Forbidden Romance.
- [43:44]
Joanna Shu
Like, yeah.
- [43:45]
Joanna Shupe
There really is. Like, first of all, I. I do believe, and I am not being hyperbolic here. Like, I actually do believe that this is probably the best sports romance that I ever. I really do. Yeah.
- [43:58]
Joanna Shu
I would agree. I would agree.
- [43:59]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [44:00]
Joanna Shupe
I don't think you can, like, of course there's a great sports romance. I. As you know, I'm a Susan Elizabeth Phillips scholarship, so. But Susan Elizabeth Phillips hasn't written a book where the actual sport.
- [44:16]
Jennifer Prokop
Correct.
- [44:17]
Joanna Shupe
Drives pretty much the entire story.
- [44:21]
Jennifer Prokop
Right. This is a workplace romance in some ways. Right. And that's. Right. And it's like in Susan Liz Phillips, like, football is just, like, what they do. It is not who they are. Right. Yes. Yes.
- [44:31]
Joanna Shupe
No, I mean, I think I would have. If somebody tells me it's not. They have to show their work. They have to bring me. That is a better sports romance than he did.
- [44:42]
Jennifer Prokop
Right.
- [44:42]
Joanna Shupe
Because I don't think it exists.
- [44:44]
Jennifer Prokop
No.
- [44:45]
Joanna Shu
I haven't found it. If it's out there, I would love.
- [44:47]
Joanna Shupe
I don't think it exists. I think this is it. I think this is the one. I mean.
- [44:50]
Jennifer Prokop
And we've done three episodes on sports romance that are all great, but.
- [44:53]
Joanna Shu
Yeah, yeah, I've had a lot of great ones, but nothing. Nothing.
- [44:57]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [44:58]
Joanna Shupe
There's the Prospects by Katie Hoffman, to me, is also like another one of those, like, fantastic queer romances that is really, really, really beautifully captures, like, the love of the sport.
- [45:09]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. I would say, for me, just a debut from this year called. I think it's called Play, Play Me for It by Samantha Saldivar, and it was great. It's a lesbian romance where the one woman is the first head female head coach of an NCAA men's basketball team and the other woman is a reporter. And for both of them, like, right. Like, a lot of the exploration if Is like, their identities in those jobs and the glass ceiling essentially, that exists for women in sports. And I think that it is really terrific at exploring, like, sort of that level. But you know what I mean, as a romance, I don't think it is anywhere. You know what I mean? Like, the romance part of it is not what heated rivalry is, but, like, that's fine, you're saying. Right. The best. But I will say in terms of, like, a sports romance I read this year that I felt, like, really leaned into, like, okay, here's two women who are falling in love, but, like, because of their jobs, they are at odds. Right? Like, you know what you're. Something's happening on the team. And if I tell you, you're a reporter. Right. And then. But like, also their individual journeys with, like, how sports treats women, especially when they are seen as encouraging, encroaching on, like, men's sports, that would be, I would say, like, a really good one this year. Yeah.
- [46:38]
Joanna Shupe
Yeah. I mean, I think that's also part of, like, I think what people have been saying. The. Mm. Romance hits different because women don't want to think about women and misogyny, which.
- [46:50]
Jennifer Prokop
Well, that's. Yeah, that's a whole other problem. And that's a whole other line. Right.
- [46:54]
Joanna Shupe
But, yeah, I mean, I think. But there is, like, that is kind of it. Right. Like, there is in men's sports, there is still that friction of, like, homophobia. Like, in women's sports, like, you can be out.
- [47:09]
Joanna Shu
Right.
- [47:10]
Jennifer Prokop
Oh, in the wnba. I mean, like, half the drama and, like, amazement of the WNBA is like, you know, that Dijonay Carrington. Right. Is dating for another team. And like. Right. Like, so I think that. Yeah, it's totally different. And. And that, I think, is what, again, makes this the conflict. I mean, like, so, right. A really good romance is, like, asking a lot of questions, like, why can't they be together right now? And if they're. And this book has a pretty amazing answer for that. Right. And it's not just, like, Shane's shame and his fear of telling his parents. It is the world that they exist in. The world of hockey.
- [47:47]
Joanna Shupe
Right.
- [47:48]
Joanna Shu
Which is why Ilya, being Russian, so smart and.
- [47:51]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [47:52]
Joanna Shupe
Being Russian moment. Yeah. Yeah. The moment where that book was written was so much in the news.
- [47:59]
Joanna Shu
Yeah.
- [47:59]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [47:59]
Joanna Shupe
I mean, it's still terrible, but. Yeah.
- [48:01]
Jennifer Prokop
Well, I mean, like, again, back to the wnba, like, what happened to Brittney Griner. Right. Like, the idea that it's just like, everywhere is safe and no problem.
- [48:10]
Joanna Shupe
And.
- [48:10]
Jennifer Prokop
And I think that. That. I mean, this book predated Brittany Griner being arrested and held in a Russian prison for a year. But, you know, that's. Yeah. I don't know. This book did everything right. This show did everything.
- [48:26]
Joanna Shupe
It is. I mean, it really is the perfect. It's like a perfect storm. It's the right book. It fell into the right hands. They cast the exact perfect people, like these actors, I think. I mean, I am curious about season two, because, like, we in. In real time have watched Connor and Hudson become superstars.
- [48:47]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes.
- [48:48]
Joanna Shupe
Like, they. Not only are they beautiful and their chemistry is literally bananas. Pay for that.
- [48:54]
Jennifer Prokop
I saw Connor on a. I don't know, podcast or something. Somebody. And this guy was like, do you have chemistry with everyone? And I was like, I think he probably does. Let's be for real.
- [49:04]
Joanna Shupe
He's just a star. But, like, the hunk. Like, you know, like, I think it's like being able to hire actors who are just so hungry to do something amazing and just put their entire fearless into something.
- [49:22]
Jennifer Prokop
Absolutely fearless. Right, Right.
- [49:23]
Joanna Shupe
So what does that mean?
- [49:24]
Joanna Shu
What does that mean for season two?
- [49:27]
Joanna Shupe
What does that mean for season two? Because it's got. The whole world is watching.
- [49:30]
Joanna Shu
Right.
- [49:31]
Joanna Shupe
You know, Well, I have got to.
- [49:32]
Jennifer Prokop
Say, I trust Jacob Tierney. Right.
- [49:35]
Joanna Shupe
I trust them, and I trust them. Like, I think these. These guys are so, like, genuinely grateful that they got to do this. This show, and it just really comes through. I mean, like, they're just, like, every time they have an interview, they, you know, credit Rachel. Have such respect for Rachel's work in the books. So, I mean, every. I mean, I am very curious. I'm. Of course I'm going to be watching. I feel like every. We should have a watch party for every single episode that comes out.
- [50:04]
Joanna Shu
I mean, it would be great, but.
- [50:09]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, it'll probably happen. Okay, so as writers, as romance writers, what was, like, the scene work or, like, what. You know, like, what did you guys love the most? Because I know we have to wrap up soon for Adriana. So, like, any of you want to, like, weigh in on, like, Joanna, like, what you. You're like. I came with notes.
- [50:31]
Joanna Shu
I think the. The thing that I. I guess knowing. Looking ahead in season two and sort of knowing what is coming in season two, the moment for me was Ilia saying she would have Loved you. Like, I love you. I. That makes me want to cry right now.
- [50:53]
Joanna Shupe
Yeah.
- [50:55]
Jennifer Prokop
That was on my list of times I cried.
- [50:56]
Joanna Shu
I mean, that's like a real punch in the chest. I mean, that, like.
- [51:02]
Joanna Shupe
No.
- [51:04]
Joanna Shu
Yeah. The delivery of it. Yeah.
- [51:06]
Jennifer Prokop
And I think the thing I want.
- [51:08]
Joanna Shu
To say, the soft moments for me. Yes.
- [51:11]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes. Well, I think, like, I was really thinking, like, the other thing about romance. Right. Is like, you connect in some way to, like, a moment in your life where, like, someone has said, like, this person I loved would have loved you.
- [51:25]
Joanna Shupe
Right.
- [51:25]
Jennifer Prokop
I mean, so it's like.
- [51:26]
Joanna Shu
Right.
- [51:26]
Jennifer Prokop
Like our ability. Like, it's so. It's so deeply human in that moment. Yeah.
- [51:32]
Joanna Shupe
I, as a big old gay, like, I think to me, like, again, because. Queer again. And I said, I think the queer romance storytelling in this book and in this. How Jacob did it, I think is really honoring a lot of the people that have had to live in the closet or haven't known themselves for a long time. And, like, that moment when they're on the couch and he's talking about marrying his vet Lana. And like, I. I, in my. When I was 21, my cousin married his boyfriend's best friend so that he could get a green car so they could be together. Like, literally, I planned the wedding and, like, I was, like, the best. Like, you know, I, like, did this whole thing because they wanted to be together and he couldn't. And we were like, this was like, you know, in the early 2000s. We're, like, in our early 20s. And it was hard. Like, it broke the relationship. And so, like, to see Shane be like, don't marry her.
- [52:42]
Jennifer Prokop
Don't.
- [52:43]
Joanna Shupe
Like, please don't.
- [52:44]
Jennifer Prokop
There's another way.
- [52:46]
Joanna Shupe
It will kill me.
- [52:47]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [52:48]
Joanna Shupe
If you do that. It literally broke me. Like, I was like. Like, I have. I have, like, seen someone live through this. And it's like, Jacob just, like, man. I think it's that piece of, like, Jacob took this work and as a man that has lived through that, has just gave. I think queer people like these moments of, like, I. I have seen your pain, and, like, I'm giving you something that can heal it. And, yeah, honestly, like, it's just like, this show is just. He is so special. Yeah. Special.
- [53:26]
Joanna Shu
I really think we've seen a shift. Like, yeah, this is a cultural phenomenon. Like, that will. Who knows what the ripple effects will be? But, yeah, an absolute phenomenon.
- [53:38]
Joanna Shupe
Yeah.
- [53:39]
Jennifer Prokop
You know, the thing for me that I really keep thinking about is, like, great romance is about kissing. I mean, like, people are like, it's Smart. It's about sex. Okay. You can think that great romance is about kissing. And just like when, you know, they're in the car and like they're kind of holding hands, it's so sweet. But then like I literally burst into tears the first time that Elliot kisses Shane in the cottage. You know what he's sort of talking about as well? I just was like.
- [54:07]
Joanna Shupe
And your macking kisses, they're so loud.
- [54:10]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes. Just like how. I mean, all of the times that. And it's not like something just like that connection. And I. I don't know, I really just feel like the romance of it all for me was about their faces, their eyes. Right. Them kissing way more than it was. And you know, great. It was hot. I loved it. All that. Yay. I love to see it. Sex does work. But like I just felt like everything about this show was so tender.
- [54:40]
Joanna Shupe
Yeah.
- [54:42]
Joanna Shu
Kiss. The kiss at the parents house when he's like having a panic attack.
- [54:49]
Joanna Shupe
Oh my. I have re. Watched that moment.
- [54:51]
Joanna Shu
Yes.
- [54:51]
Joanna Shupe
Three times.
- [54:52]
Joanna Shu
Yes.
- [54:53]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [54:55]
Joanna Shu
Even like she doesn't get better.
- [54:58]
Joanna Shupe
It was like splashing him with water and then.
- [55:00]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes.
- [55:01]
Joanna Shupe
Give me a kiss.
- [55:01]
Jennifer Prokop
Give me a kiss. I was like that. And I think that's the thing. I really feel like, you know something sometimes in a romance, I mean, you were talking about like romance now versus then. Like, I'm like, where is the kissing? Yeah, where. Excuse me. What are. What are you doing? You know, and every great romance, like, right. We've talked about like Jeannie Lynn's. Jeannie Lynn's book. I got him like spacing out. Oh, butterfly swords. Like, right. Like the first time they kiss. It's just like, this is all I want. And the, the show delivers it. And that's why.
- [55:33]
Joanna Shupe
Right.
- [55:33]
Jennifer Prokop
Going back to. We didn't even kiss. Right. We didn't even kiss. The biggest heartbreak in a romance. Yeah. Oh, fuck.
- [55:43]
Joanna Shu
So good.
- [55:44]
Joanna Shupe
It really is masterful. Like it is a masterful adaptation and it's just the most beautiful romance.
- [55:57]
Joanna Shu
I mean, I've watched it, I've watched it three times and I'm ready to go sit down and watch it for a fourth.
- [56:03]
Jennifer Prokop
I'm going to watch party tonight to watch the last episode in a bar. And I'm so excited, so jealous. I'm gonna take video for both of you because you will be jealous.
- [56:10]
Joanna Shu
Please do.
- [56:11]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. Because I just think joy, pure joy.
- [56:14]
Joanna Shupe
Yeah. What a gift. Like, truly, it is a gift for some and people that didn't know they needed because we know, like, we know romance. Like we, we give this to ourselves all the time. Like, the joy of a good romance. But people that didn't know they could give themselves this. Like, so many. I saw so many posts of gay men being like, I'm still afraid something bad's gonna happen.
- [56:38]
Joanna Shu
Yeah, yeah.
- [56:39]
Joanna Shupe
Like they could not believe that they would just get the happy ending.
- [56:43]
Joanna Shu
Yeah.
- [56:44]
Jennifer Prokop
Just like burnished with gold sunlight for an entire episode, vibing off into the sunset.
- [56:51]
Joanna Shupe
Jacob Tierney.
- [56:53]
Joanna Shu
I mean, the first. The first time when they were driving to the cottage where he. Ilia reaches over and grabs Shane. Shane's hand. I like, like, squealed. Like I said, absolute.
- [57:04]
Joanna Shupe
Like.
- [57:05]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [57:07]
Joanna Shupe
It's like he had like a Greek choir of romance readers on his, you know, like, behind him. Like, do this, do that. Some people just have it. Like, every time I hear Jacob Tierney talking about romance, it's like you get it at a cellular level like this. No one can teach you how to see the joy and value in this. Like. Yeah, you have to feel it. It.
- [57:28]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, yeah.
- [57:29]
Joanna Shupe
You have to have that sensibility.
- [57:32]
Joanna Shu
Let him adapt every romance from now on.
- [57:38]
Jennifer Prokop
The part where Shane says, like, how did we let this happen? And Shane says, we were both stupid.
- [57:44]
Joanna Shupe
Stupid and irresponsible.
- [57:46]
Joanna Shu
Yeah.
- [57:46]
Jennifer Prokop
God, feelings.
- [57:49]
Joanna Shu
I know.
- [57:50]
Joanna Shupe
Doing it. Okay, like, this is like, oh, all right.
- [57:56]
Jennifer Prokop
Okay. Since I know you have to go. You were like, I have a hard. Stop you. Someone says, okay, what could I read after he did what can give me these feelings? What other romance book could give me the feelings I just had watching he did Rivalry. What would you say? I'm sorry, I'm not interviewing.
- [58:14]
Joanna Shu
You know how I am. I will. I mean, I will say I really like us or him and Us by Elle Kennedy and Serena Bowen.
- [58:23]
Joanna Shupe
Yeah.
- [58:24]
Joanna Shu
College set time jump. They fall in love, you know, at hockey camp in the summertime.
- [58:31]
Jennifer Prokop
And then.
- [58:32]
Joanna Shu
Yeah, that's. That's a duet that I really. I reread, like, a lot.
- [58:37]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [58:37]
Joanna Shupe
Yeah, those are good. I rarely self recommend, but I actually think my book Finding Joy, I actually reread it because I had to, because I'm redoing the audiobook recently. And it is. Is. It is not a sports romance, but it's a romance set in Ethiopia where one of the men can't be out for obvious reasons. And it has a lot of those same, like, it has a lot of yearning and there's like a lot of, like, they can't obviously be themselves in public because you're right, it's illegal to be gay in Ethiopia. And so it is also kind of like that struggle of someone, like, who has who. Who can't be himself in his homeland.
- [59:19]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [59:19]
Joanna Shupe
Too. And so I think that one actually is a good comp for this.
- [59:24]
Jennifer Prokop
I think that is a good comp. You know, I was thinking again, because, like, I don't. I feel like the comp isn't about, like, hockey necessarily. Feelings. And so I was actually thinking, like, one of my favorite. My favorite, actually not one of my actual favorite K.J. charles book is Band Sinister.
- [59:41]
Joanna Shupe
Oh, yeah.
- [59:42]
Jennifer Prokop
And what it has is, like, guy who is he, like, doesn't even know being gay is possible.
- [59:48]
Joanna Shupe
Yeah.
- [59:48]
Jennifer Prokop
And his sister is injured. This is a historical. Right. And he is, like, taken next door to, like, you know, the local bad boys home where the whole world opens up in front of him in every way. And I do think in some ways, like, that sort of. Right. Like, it has the same obviously, like, pressure, secrecy, the same conflict, but like, the idea of like a world being opened up for you and then like, deciding you want it. Because I think the thing about these last two episodes, episodes in particular, that really move me is, like, Shane's determination to figure out how to make this work.
- [60:28]
Joanna Shupe
Yeah.
- [60:29]
Jennifer Prokop
This is what I want now. And I think that that band Sinister has like, a very similar kind of one person who doesn't know anything and one person who's like, almost jaded. And then together they create something like, new and beautiful. So I was thinking that that, like the feelings wise, that Band Sinister might be a good one. Yeah, that is a good one.
- [60:52]
Joanna Shu
Well, you know me, I'm really literal. I'm like, oh, no. Another hockey romance.
- [60:56]
Jennifer Prokop
People are gonna want that. I mean, I don't think that that's like a bad thing.
- [61:01]
Joanna Shupe
Caveat. Because this is like someone. But Amy Lane has an older, much older book. Like, it's like maybe from like 2008 called the locker Room. The cover's terrible, but it's. It's kind of like the Blind side meets, like, kind of heated rivalry. They're basketball players and they've been together since they were teenagers. Like, one of them has, like, a really bad home situation and the family ends up kind of like taking him in. And then you see them through their w. Like their NBA careers.
- [61:33]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [61:33]
Joanna Shupe
High school, college, and throughout the year. I mean, it is a lot more angsty and it's a little dated in certain ways. But if you want like, a sports romance, the Locker Room by Amy Elaine, I think really kind of delivers a lot in the same way that. But that's like a deep cut.
- [61:51]
Jennifer Prokop
Well. And Joanna, you wrote one of. Or can you self recommend as Mila Fenelli? Like, you know, you're. You're assassins.
- [62:00]
Joanna Shu
Oh, yeah. Mafia target.
- [62:02]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [62:02]
Joanna Shu
Assassin. And right.
- [62:04]
Jennifer Prokop
Like the whole idea of being forbidden.
- [62:06]
Joanna Shu
Yeah. I mean, he's been hired to kill him.
- [62:10]
Jennifer Prokop
So, I mean.
- [62:13]
Joanna Shu
Tastes a little hard to be together.
- [62:15]
Jennifer Prokop
Little romance. It keeps watch calling it heated rivalries. And I'm like, one rivalry. It's one rivalry. So beautiful. What a time.
- [62:25]
Joanna Shu
So sad over. What a time.
- [62:28]
Jennifer Prokop
You know what? You just re. Watch it.
- [62:29]
Joanna Shupe
Yes. You can read it.
- [62:32]
Jennifer Prokop
I will have all those feelings anytime you want.
- [62:35]
Joanna Shu
I can't wait for my merch to come in January.
- [62:38]
Jennifer Prokop
Oh, yeah.
- [62:39]
Joanna Shu
I'm. I can't wait for the jerseys to come back in stock. I don't know. I'm. It's a real problem.
- [62:46]
Joanna Shupe
I. This show has made me feel like I could literally run through walls for like five weeks straight. And I am so grateful because we all needed this, like, especially at this time.
- [62:58]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [62:58]
Joanna Shupe
The news has been so horrible.
- [63:00]
Joanna Shu
I'm curious whether both of you feel like it. Would it have been. Would it have been this if it had been released in one block?
- [63:10]
Jennifer Prokop
I don't think so.
- [63:11]
Joanna Shupe
I don't think so.
- [63:12]
Joanna Shu
Okay.
- [63:12]
Jennifer Prokop
I think like the one, you know. Right. You get two and then it's like the conversation and everyone talking about it. Yeah. I think it's the. I agree. I will say the funniest meme I saw was like, stranger Things. It was like a. A car. Like a car on like the railroad tracks that said stranger things. And then like a huge train, like, runs right through it. And it's labeled heated rivalry. And I did really, like, that's how it felt. Yeah.
- [63:37]
Joanna Shupe
I mean, definitely the zeitgeist, like, it's just taking well.
- [63:41]
Jennifer Prokop
And I think it gives us the gift of like, really feeling. Right. Feeling our feelings. Talking about it. Having that water cooler moment. Right. Like, talking about it in my 700 group chats with the guy at the front desk at work, with my friends, you know, in romance, my friends, outside romance, my brother. Right. Like my discord. So that's a part too. It's like that feeling like you get when everybody is, like, locked into the same thing and talking. I didn't actually let myself look at. At social media this morning before we recorded. I didn't want to know what anybody else was saying because I just wanted to feel what I was feeling. Yeah, well, they're.
- [64:15]
Joanna Shu
They're freaking the out, so just in case you're.
- [64:18]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, I would hope so.
- [64:20]
Joanna Shu
Every. Every minute of it.
- [64:22]
Joanna Shupe
God, it's just so overwhelmingly positive that.
- [64:25]
Jennifer Prokop
And we.
- [64:25]
Joanna Shupe
I just feel like we all needed this. Like, I hope. I hope the gay men who have found the show come to romance. They deserve to read books about happy endings.
- [64:36]
Jennifer Prokop
And there's so many. Yeah. So many great gay romances written by gay men. I mean, we haven't mentioned, like, see, Travis Rice. We haven't mentioned, you know, I mean, a lot of people, like Tal Bauer. I mean, like, there's so many great.
- [64:49]
Joanna Shupe
Ash has a great mystery series.
- [64:52]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [64:52]
Joanna Shupe
So, yeah, I think there's a lot. There's a lot out there for them, and I hope they come to it because they deserve it. All right, I gotta go. I love you guys. I love.
- [65:01]
Joanna Shu
You know, it's been so fun watching this show with you guys. With you guys. It's been the best.
- [65:08]
Jennifer Prokop
All right, somebody put it on social media. I don't know how anything works.
- [65:11]
Joanna Shu
All right. Yeah.
- [65:12]
Joanna Shupe
All right, bye. Bye.