Jennifer Prokop (1:45)

And I'm Jennifer Prokop, a romance reader and editor. And as you've heard, we're here with Adrian Herrera, who is now essentially, I'm going to call you the queen of Romancelandia, along with your other, ah, Ali Hazelwood. So why don't you tell us what you've been up to, because it's pretty impressive.

Adriana Herrera (2:05)

We have been up to where we're in. Well, we just finished up technically, but when this comes out, a campaign called after the End, which is the first project that Ali and I have done together of romance collections. We came up with the idea drinking margaritas, but it was a pretty sound idea, even though we had been drinking of kind of gathering folks who we thought were amazing romance authors coming up with a concept that excited us. And we wanted to create an environment as people that have been in traditional publishing and as all we know is traditional publishing can be challenging in certain ways in terms of, like, the support. So we wanted to provide kind of like what would happen if we found amazing authors and we gave them everything they needed to feel supported and gave them a beautiful book, and all they had to do was send us a story and we'd do everything else. And so that was kind of like the idea for. For this first one after the End, a dystopian romance collection. So it's eight romance Romances that are dystopian. And the collection has myself and Ally, Nikki Payne, Nisha Sharma, Elizabeth Stevens, Claire Kent, Kate C. Wells, and the great Sherry Thomas, which I still cannot believe.

Jennifer Prokop (3:32)

I can't either. Every time I look at, I mean.

Sarah MacLean (3:34)

A collection of Fademay's favorites.

Adriana Herrera (3:38)

Yeah. Yeah. I still. I was talking to someone the other day, and she was like, what is it like to talk to Sherry Thomas? And I'm like, I couldn't tell you because I black out every time I interact with her and make an absolute fool of myself. So I. I think it's great, but you have to ask her.

Jennifer Prokop (3:53)

You're like, I could tell you. Yeah, sure.

Sarah MacLean (3:56)

The Kickstarter is wrapping up, but people are still able.

Jennifer Prokop (4:01)

If.

Sarah MacLean (4:01)

If that sounds like the. If dystopian romance by all of those incredible authors sounds like something you want. You can still get access to the Kickstarter and order some books.

Adriana Herrera (4:16)

Yes, we have late pledges. I mean, it's something that Kickstarter allows for, like, a little bit of time right after it ends. I think it's about a week. So. So that's.

Sarah MacLean (4:27)

If you're listening to this on the day it drops, you have, like, around a week to go and pledge.

Adriana Herrera (4:35)

Yeah, the price is like a. Like a little higher, like 10% more than you would have gotten if you would have gotten during, like, the actual run of that campaign. But you can still get the ebooks, the audiobooks.

Jennifer Prokop (4:46)

You can get the hardcovers, the artwork, everything about it. I just felt so seen. I was like this. These are people who love romance the way I love romance. You know what I mean?

Adriana Herrera (5:01)

That is what we wanted for it to feel like. Like, we see you people who have been feral for romance whole lives. We actually. I think this might actually be out by the time this is out. So we have a little mascot, and it's like a. Like a raccoon with, like, guns that shoot out hearts. And she's called Amorosa because she's like our little, like, kind of homage to Furiosa from Fury Road, because I love it. And she's like the. The trash panda of love. So we have. We have Pins and stickers that we're gonna do as a. That we did as a stretch goal of Amorosa. And like, the idea is like, this is for the people that just love romance, love great romance, and want that feeling of like, these are books that are like, I don't know, like, proud of just being like, what they are.

Jennifer Prokop (6:00)

Yeah.

Adriana Herrera (6:01)

Like, even the poses that we did for those books, like, we went to like the old, like the. All the clinches in those books are like, literally from Joanna Lindsay books that we like, I sent the artist, like, I want it to look like this. We wanted like a more pulpy look for the actual style of the covers, but like a little sci fi is style. But the. The poses themselves were literally like, yeah, want this pose from this, you know, 1987 Lindsay book.

Sarah MacLean (6:37)

Awesome.

Jennifer Prokop (6:37)

Amazing.

Sarah MacLean (6:38)

It looks amazing. You can head over right now and learn more about the Kickstarter. What's the. The URL. Adriana.

Adriana Herrera (6:48)

It's after the. Anteromance.com is the website. And you can also find us at. In the Instagram at. After theentromance.

Sarah MacLean (6:55)

And.

Jennifer Prokop (6:56)

And we'll put all this in shownotes, of course.

Sarah MacLean (6:57)

Exactly. But that's not why you're here today.

Daphne (7:00)

We.

Sarah MacLean (7:01)

The Kickstarter was launched after we had this idea to have you on at the beginning of season eight, our last episode. Last week's episode was a sort of giving a kind of overview of who we are for new listeners. We had not done that in a time and talking about kind of where we see the genre, kind of what the state of the genre. Like, what are we thinking about. About romance? And we thought we'd really love for you to join us this week to talk about this kind of big question that seems to like, always float through conversations about romance, which is what is how does romance intersect with feminism? Like, is it. You know, back in the day we used to say, like, romance is a feminist genre by virtue of like being by. For and about women. We don't say that anymore because it's not accurate. And so I think that there is one of. This is one of those things where a lot of people sort of intellectually and. Or maybe not intellectually, but like in their gut, feel like romance should. Should feel feminist, should be feminist. And I know we talk a lot. I talk a lot about, like, what. How many of the books can be feminist and are feminist and like, inspire me to like, be more feminist in my day to day life. But certainly there are books that don't make me feel that way. And when I Think about feminism, and I think about the people that I want to talk about feminism with. You are always at the top of that list. So here we are. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit, as somebody who I know thinks a lot about this kind of question of, like, how does romance. How do romance and feminism, like, come together and interplay? Where do you come from when you think about that?

Adriana Herrera (8:55)

I think part of it. I mean, I think I was. I'm trying to, like, think about it, like, conceptually. I think a lot about my books in terms of, like, message. And I think because my value system is so grounded in feminist values, I think it just kind of comes out in what I want to say. And so I think that, to me, is part of, like, the, like, the tricky part. I think, like, feminism can't. Something that you add in, like, as a spice, right? Like, it can't be like, something, right?

Jennifer Prokop (9:27)

Like she girl bosses in chapter 37, and therefore it's feminist, correct?

Adriana Herrera (9:31)

Or like, she's. Or like, you know, like. Like, I see a lot of, like, books that are, like, you know, kind of like, adding a tag on us, like, feminine rage and, like. But, like, what does that mean? Like, what. What does it mean to, like, what. What are we raging at? What's the rage for? Where does it come from? How does it manifest itself? How does it. Because again, to me, feminism, like, as someone that comes from the school of, like, more like black feminist thought, like, feminism is, of course, about gender equality, but, like, what we really want is, like, a better world for everyone.

Jennifer Prokop (10:14)

That's what I really kind of almost feel like maybe we should start by defining what feminism is and why it's important in our worldview. Like, the worldview of this podcast, the worldview of the three of us, and then, like, what it means to want it in romance. Because I guess I will say, like, maybe there are people right now who are like, well, I am. I don't consider myself a feminist, or I don't care about feminism, or I don't care if romance is feminist. And.

Adriana Herrera (10:43)

Or.

Jennifer Prokop (10:44)

Or not all romance has to be feminist. And maybe all of those things are true or not. But I feel like I think the three of us think that the romances we love best are feminist. And so maybe we just even need to, like, what is feminism? I don't even know if people know what feminism even means sometimes. I don't. Am I wrong for saying that?

Sarah MacLean (11:07)

No, I think you're very right.

Adriana Herrera (11:08)

I think you're right. I think. I mean, I Think I was actually having a conversation the other day with someone who's like, you know, everything doesn't have to be feminist. And I agree. I agree that we don't have to come into every conversation or every romance book, like, if that's not our own core story. Right. Like, I think to me, where things get. Get trickies when you want to, like, feminine, like, at the feminist part as, like, well, you know, she's.

Sarah MacLean (11:39)

She's like, she loves chapel roan, so.

Adriana Herrera (11:42)

Or like, girl power or, like, you know, like, all of these things. Because I think part of the thing is, like, romance, again, like I said before, can't, like, feminists can't be a spice. It has to be, like, where everything's, like, cooked in. It has to be, like, the broth that everything is cooked. And it has to be, like, in everything that is forming the story. And. And feminism isn't just about, like, she gets to be the boss at the end or whatever. It really is. It's like the world. That the world is better off now than it was in the beginning.

Sarah MacLean (12:15)

So this is something really interesting because. And I think this goes with Jen's question about, like, how does romance sort of, why should romance feel feminist? Like, why. Why do we want it to go in that direction? The three of us, I should say. And that is because. And I know all three of us listen to that Jane Ann Krentz episode that I talk about all the time. But when she says genre drives characters to be their best selves, she's not just saying, like, the characters, she's saying they also leave the world in a better place. Which is an interesting thing when you think about people. Like, you know, you mentioned Claire Kent is in the dystopian romance collection. Like, when you think about Claire writing a series set on a prison planet, right? Like, how does the romance serve the world? Like, make the world of that space better? And in that case, if it does. And in that book, for example, it does in some way.

Jennifer Prokop (13:18)

What you're talking about hold.

Sarah MacLean (13:19)

I'm talking about hold. Right.

Adriana Herrera (13:20)

Not.

Sarah MacLean (13:20)

I don't know what Claire wrote. Wrote for the.

Adriana Herrera (13:22)

The.

Sarah MacLean (13:23)

The anthology, but in Hold. Right. Like, she does move the world forward. Yeah, impossibly so. It feels so. Like, is that what we're looking for? This idea of, like, the world has to be on a better path, not fixed because we can't fix patriarchy.

Jennifer Prokop (13:41)

Right.

Sarah MacLean (13:41)

Like, it's. It's an endless cycle of fight, but we have to move forward.

Adriana Herrera (13:49)

Yeah.

Jennifer Prokop (13:49)

It's funny because when we talk about this question, right, like, sort of, is an individual's life better or is the world better? What I think about a lot is a scene from Sex in the City. I don't know if anybody remembers this, but. And I should have probably, like, looked up what actual episode is on. You know, they're all sitting around a brunch and it's Samantha who's kind of like, I want to do it. If I want to do it, then it's feminist. Right. And this is not true, right. Like, this is flagrantly untrue. Right. Individual choices, I mean. And I think that to me is the big thing I think about a lot is, you know, if you are one of the, like, American brain rot is that, like, if a one person can do something or not, then that's just the way it goes, right? Like, we have really, like, down to story about individualism that now we can see is. Has ruined our. Has. There's been a long path of, like, how it's ruined our society, and now here we are.

Sarah MacLean (14:52)

Hero's journey is bullshit, right?

Jennifer Prokop (14:54)

Exactly. And so when I think about feminism, I'm thinking about, right, as Adrianna said, like, okay, the world has to be better, not just this one individual woman's life is better if we're talking about a main character. But I mean, even in then like a romance where there are no women as characters, I think they can espouse feminist values if what they believe is that, like, equality should not be something that you're prohibited from having because of your gender or your sexual identity.

Adriana Herrera (15:28)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think like. I mean, because if you go by the rule of, if a woman is doing it and she is in a. Exerting her agency to fulfill her goals, is feminism then, like, every woman in the Trump administration is a feminist.

Sarah MacLean (15:50)

Sure.

Adriana Herrera (15:51)

Margaret Thatcher and I tacitly reject that. Like, Christine is not a feminist. Pam Bondi is not a feminist. Nancy Mays is not a feminist. And I can go on and on and on and on and please quote me. And so to me, like, that is like, to me, like a baseline of what the litmus test must be like. A woman being able to do whatever she wants is certainly something that we want. But, like, if there is no thought about the larger impact of their actions, then like, in a feminist world, the vulnerable, like we are aspiring to make everyone who is vulnerable safer. Like in a feminist romance, everybody that was unsafe more is safer in the world that we have left. Right.

Sarah MacLean (16:43)

It's not. It can't. It's not necessarily Perfect. But it's moving in that direction.

Adriana Herrera (16:47)

It's moving in that direction. We, We've negotiated with this, with the power systems so that we have, like, tip the balance a little more.

Sarah MacLean (17:00)

This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Pippa Grant, author of the Spite Date.

Jennifer Prokop (17:07)

So Bea lives in a small little town, and you know what? She likes it that way. She's a little grumpy, but people leave her alone. Everything's fine. Except for the fact that her ex essentially has, like, stolen her, like, recipes and is using them to open his own restaurant. And just like every. Nothing is really going her way. And to make it worse, these two twin teenage boys essentially, like, get her arrested. And their father is Hollywood's hottest leading man, this British actor named Simon Lockwood, who for some reason, like, lives in her town part time. And she just cannot stand the way everybody is constantly, like, fawning over this man. Like, he plays. It's like a weird TV show he was in. Why is he always smiling? Clearly this man cannot be trusted. So after the arresting part, Simon is, like, a nice guy and offers to, like, take her out on a date, and she's like, oh, I have a great plan. We'll go to my ex's restaurant, I will throw a huge fit, make a big public spectacle, and, like, wash my hands out of these two idiots forever. Only Simon's really nice and she really likes them and they have a great time. Oh, what's gonna happen when Miss Grumpy meets Mr. Sunshine and, like, small town hijinks and big time love? And two, listen.

Sarah MacLean (18:29)

You know, I love a normie celebrity romance, and this one seems like it's perfectly formatted for me. If it's perfectly formatted for you too, you can read it right now in print, ebook, book, audiobook, or with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited. If your podcasting app supports it. You can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. And as a special treat for fated mates listeners, Pippa Grant has given us a sneak peek of the audiobook of the Spite Date. And that will run immediately after this week's episode. So stick around to listen to that. Thanks to Pippa Grant for sponsoring this week's episode.

Jennifer Prokop (19:08)

I think of the three of us, everybody, I just want to own this. My, like, grounding in feminist theory is probably the weakest, right? Like, this isn't something. I mean, I guess I, you know, I took some classes in college. That was a long time ago, right? This isn't something that I Feel like I truly. You know what I mean? So, like, if you are right now listening to this and you're like, well, I haven't read Feminist Theory. Like, I. I'm the voice of you, right? But I do think, like, so I found myself thinking a lot about why did I feel like romance was feminist when I was younger, right? Like, what is it about the books that I was read reading or the kinds of stories that I was reading? And I think, when I think of. I think a lot about, like. Like, I really love Sandra Brown books back in the day, right? And I think a lot about books I read where, like, I really liked a book called Fantasy, Right? It was like a Love Swept, right. Fanta. And then the letter C. Because in this book. And again, listen, I haven't read this in a long time. Like, would it feel feminist to me now? But I really remember. So she was a widow and what she wanted to do was, like, open her own shop, her own store and like, that was the name of it, right? She opened it in a local hotel and.

Adriana Herrera (20:27)

Right.

Sarah MacLean (20:27)

This would have been a sex toy shop. In 2025 it would be.

Jennifer Prokop (20:31)

But back then it was like, I think she sold, like, ties and crystals, stuff like that. Right, okay. But what I remember about these books about, like, Sandra Brown, like, Love Swepts and about, like, Love Swepts as a line in Charlotte General was often. These were books where women were divorced or widowed. They had to be financially responsible for themselves and their families. They had to enter a workforce in lots of different kinds of ways that. That were. Were not just like, you're an assistant to the billionaire, right? Like, there was a book by Tammy. No, not Tammy Hogue. There's a book, book by Barbara Boswell. I really loved her where the woman, she was a mom and her husband had died, and she essentially, like, worked nights at the airport at BWI at Baltimore Washington International Airport because she wanted to, like, be home for her kids during the day. Like, she was really trying to essentially, like, I don't know, bridge the gap between. Yeah, right. Like, I want to be able to, like, know my children, but also I am now the sole breadwinner. And I.

Daphne (21:48)

And my.

Jennifer Prokop (21:49)

My mother was a divorced mom who was doing the same thing. And so I think, like, to me, I understood these books to be feminist because I. They were like, the world is not set up for us to succeed and take care of our families. We have been left behind. I have nothing because of my financial situation, because my husband either died or left me or moved on or Whatever. And now it is my fucking job to make. Like, to make. To support myself and my family. And I found these books to be incredibly moving. Both as someone who, like, didn't know how to say to my mom, I see how hard this is for you.

Adriana Herrera (22:34)

Right.

Jennifer Prokop (22:34)

I see how fucking hard this is for you and all your friends, by the way. And so for me, when I think back upon, like, the way I entered into romance as a reader, these were books where women were. And I think it, like, tells a lot, like, a lot of the things I still love in romance. Like a woman against the wall, a woman who's independent. A woman, right. Came from an entire, like, like, category series where almost every single book was somebody was a woman who's like, well, I gotta figure this shit out. Cause no one's gonna figure it out for me.

Adriana Herrera (23:10)

Me? Yeah. I mean, I just want to say something regarding, like, you know, like, this, like. Because I think that's where things get complicated. Of this sense of, like, I need to have, like, some kind of, like, very deep and very, like, intellectual or academic or scholarly understanding of, like, feminism, feminist theory, to be someone that is moving through the world with a feminist lens. And I think that's like. Like part of where I think things get complicated in terms of, like, is it, like, you know, is it feminist enough or not? Because I don't. I mean, I think, like, we're all feminists, like, because the value system that we operate on, it's like, it isn't fair for us to have something at the expense of other people not having. And, like, it really kind of all whittles down to, like, that basic thing, like, what is just is a world where the world is more equitable for everyone. For everyone. And for. And coming into a book with a man and a woman where that man believes that she is a person, her in her personhood with, like, no matter how emotionally constipated he is, he's never had feeling or whatnot. In 2025, if you're writing a book and that man doesn't have a very concrete sense of a woman's personhood, then. Then that. Then that's where we get into the territory. We're like, well, I don't know if this can be feminist or not, but, like, if that's your parting point, like, I think how that plays out in terms of the romance, I think it's up to the writer to, like, how much, like, how hard they want to go. But I don't think that you. I don't Think you have to, like, go so hard. You know what I mean? Like, you don't have to make her, like, an abortionist. Like, you can. You. She can just be a single mom that's, you know, like, trying to make it. And she's like, just, like, hasn't, like, what she's teaching her children by, like, how she's negotiating a romance. What she wants from that relationship is. Is enough. I think sometimes we complicate it too much.

Sarah MacLean (25:24)

I agree. And I think also the equity piece is so important. Like, the you you talked about what is and is not just. And I think that one of the things that we hear a lot in romance now is like, well, those old school romances, the ones Jen is talking about, the ones that were written at the same time. Right. You know, those heroes were emotionally constipated at the beginning. They didn't necessarily see, like, the heroine as a human. Like, think about those. Like the. The classic old historicals from the 80s and early 90s. And I think what's interesting about that is because. Is that those texts were in many ways show heroines teaching heroes, like, about equity. Like, the growth was breaking the hero, like, on the page and sending him to be rebuilt as, like, a metaphor for, hey, fuck you. We have to be seen as equal. Like, we have to be partners.

Adriana Herrera (26:32)

Yeah. I mean, back then, we were also smoking half a pack of cigarettes at dinner time.

Sarah MacLean (26:37)

No, exactly.

Adriana Herrera (26:38)

If we want to just kind of say, well, it was okay then, so. Because it has been five decades.

Sarah MacLean (26:46)

Yes. I mean, but I also would argue that it's not the same. Yeah, it's been five decades. But also, like, these. A lot of, like, those men did have to learn on the page.

Adriana Herrera (26:56)

That's what I'm saying. Like, we. We should have learned, like. Like, we should be in a different place. Where even the language that we have to make to like, to use those heroes as patriarchy should be different. Because, like, back. I mean, a lot of the things, unfortunately, are the same, but, like, for the consciousness, the collective consciousness that we have as women in. I mean, my mother's 74, and when I have a conversation with my mother about feminism, the consciousness that I have around a lot of things is different than she does. Because I was born, I was. I grew up in the 90s in the middle of the AIDS pandemic. And so I have a very different sense about sexuality, queerness, blah, blah, blah, whatever. And yet in certain things, my mother is definitely a feminist. But, like, to me, I don't think it. I don't think it's a fair comparison and. Or even honestly, coming from a place of, like, we're having a good faith conversation in terms of, like, what. Like that we are saying, well, those heroes were. Whatever they were. Yeah, babe. Like, yeah, sure. And. And so, like, 70 years, like 40 years have passed.

Sarah MacLean (28:11)

Yeah.

Simon Lockwood (28:11)

And.

Adriana Herrera (28:12)

Right.

Sarah MacLean (28:12)

They were not written for a long time too.

Adriana Herrera (28:15)

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, it's just different even from. Even from 2000. Like, the way we even talk about queerness and like, trans folks and sexuality and desire and all of those things in 2015 is different than how we talk about.

Jennifer Prokop (28:28)

Yeah.

Adriana Herrera (28:30)

And so how is it that every other thing that we talk about in romance, constantly, consent, desire, sexuality, gender expression, all of that has become, like, has evolved. And yet we. We. We can't. Like, what's up with that? Like, that's. That feels a little inconsistent to me. And I'm not. It doesn't apply. But I'm saying, like, I don't know if it's a fair comparison to say these Heroes in the 80s were acting the way that they were. Yeah. There were also, like, you know, they all had mustaches and, like, smoked a ton. Yeah.

Jennifer Prokop (29:07)

Yeah. The big change I also see or have seen in romance.

Adriana Herrera (29:12)

Right.

Jennifer Prokop (29:13)

Is our understanding that, like, we cannot have. We can't call a whole group of books feminists if they don't. If they are, do not. If they're not intersectional.

Adriana Herrera (29:24)

That's fair.

Jennifer Prokop (29:26)

We just can't.

Adriana Herrera (29:27)

Out of this is like, how the heroes and the heroines see the world. Like. Right. That's what makes, like, there's not like, a setting or a plot twist that's going to make something feminist. It's just really is like, like the point of view of these people because you're writing it. So to me, like, the idea that we can still kind of use whatever point of view a book was being written in the 70s and 80s to, like, explain why something is the way it is in 2025, to me, feels like then that would have to apply to everything. Like, what was the language around black people or race or culture or immigrants or like, in. In those books in that time. Because we have to then, like, bring it all up. Like, that's how it works. Like, all of it has to apply then. Like, it can't just be like, that one thing that we can, like, just kind of like, leave in the past and everything else has to come to the present.

Sarah MacLean (30:30)

But so here's my question. I think with this, and I think it's a question that a lot of, like, authors have is this kind of. I feel like one of the things that we're losing or that is shifting in romance right now, largely. And obviously, like, I'm painting with the broad brush here, but it's this idea that, like, for me, as a. As a longtime romance reader, I have thought a lot about the genre as being, like, you know, I talk so much about conflict. Like, it feels very internal. The heartbeat of romance is an internal sort of revelatory experience, right? Like, the. The path of revelation is like a piece of the story of romance, right? And so I think one of the things that is. That is happening right now, especially in a particular kind of contemporary romance, is a kind of flattening of the revelation. Like, characters arrive on page one already fully evolved often. Heroes arrive on page one often fully evolved. And so I think. And I think that this is a way that, like, writers kind of shorthand feminism in the text, right? Like, I've put a hero on page who has already done, like, all of his, like, emotional, patriarchal work. Like, he's a feminist. He, you know, goes to protests. He, you know, does his thing. And therefore, like, the book is already feminist by virtue of, like, the characters being able to call themselves such. Do we feel that that is the way we are? Like, do we feel like that text is naturally feminist? Or do we feel like you have to show your work? Like, I have a real feeling about heroes, right? Like, anybody who listens to the podcast knows that, like, I like a hero who does need to be worked on in many ways, because I think this is the work of our. This is a big piece of the work of our time. Intersectionally. He needs to be worked on in 2025.

Jennifer Prokop (32:33)

I want you to think I'm going to answer that question by talking about why I hate To Kill a Mockingbird.

Sarah MacLean (32:42)

And I'm in class.

Jennifer Prokop (32:45)

Yeah, No, I mean, and this is like a real. I think, like, I kind of want to answer that question in. So, like, people love this book. God bless. You know, you love it. Atticus Finch to me, so, like, people be like, well, I love Atticus. Now I have come to realize, I think a lot of people say that because they're talking about the movie. But, like, my question is always like, I would like to know how he got there. How did this man in 1930s Alabama, growing up in the Jim Crow south, become magically non racist? How did this happen?

Sarah MacLean (33:23)

And I think, right, he's already evolved on page one.

Jennifer Prokop (33:26)

Correct. He comes into the. And like. And so I think when white readers say they love him, I am always like, well, what.

Sarah MacLean (33:32)

What's not to love?

Jennifer Prokop (33:33)

That you too can magically be not racist without doing the platonic ideal of. Yeah, so you have done no work. You just want to say that you're not racist, and that is what you've learned from this book. And I feel like sometimes when I. What I am seeing in the text of these books is a similar man, only he's magically. He's magically everything. And by doing that, he's magically nothing. How did he get this way? Well, and how did he arrive on page? Magically feminist, magically non racist.

Sarah MacLean (34:12)

Yeah. And then the text is doing something else entirely. Right. Like, then it's not. If everybody on page is perfect on page one, what are we doing?

Adriana Herrera (34:23)

Yeah, I mean, I think. So here's the thing. And I. And I've talked about this before and probably need to, like, that probably needs to be another episode, but I think there is, like, a shift in reader desires and like, taste in, like, I think millennial romance is its own thing.

Sarah MacLean (34:43)

Like a new genre.

Adriana Herrera (34:44)

Yeah. And I think, I mean, I think like, you know, Gen X romance is different than, like, boomer romance. You know what I mean? Like, there's just, like, stuff and themes and messaging and characterization. Like, you know, our Gen X romance has a lot of women who have. Who were not virgins, who were having. Who were out in the world, working, having sex, dating, having sexual pasts before they met the hero that they end up with. These are not things that you would see necessarily in a boomer romance. Like, you have men who were coming in, like, the. You know what I mean? Like, there's a lot of thematic things that Gen Xers, us have put in our. Put in our romances that the people who are writing romances before didn't necessarily. And I think it's a lot of it is in, you know, a product of, like, how we came up, like, we all came up in the 90s. The 90s was. Was an interesting place to come of age and to start having sex when, like, you know, there had been just like a. A pretty much like a. A pandemic that killed millions of people for having sex.

Sarah MacLean (35:51)

Sure.

Adriana Herrera (35:52)

Quote, unquote.

Sarah MacLean (35:53)

And there is a sort of very famous. Just to pause, there is a very famous, like, boomer romance novelist who I will not name who, like, famously said she was sick and tired of having to put condoms in books. Now, like, correct condoms, perfect example.

Jennifer Prokop (36:06)

Right. But like, to us who grew up at that Time.

Sarah MacLean (36:09)

It's like we're like, where's the condom?

Adriana Herrera (36:12)

And so. And so I think for millennials, I think there is this, like, sense of. I think because it's just more present that there is a sense, like, there are. That, like, men are more aware of, like, feminism and gender equity and that, like, you know, as a standard, like, baseline standard, is that you wouldn't fall in love with a man that isn't already, like, there in terms of, like, his feminist values. Like, you wouldn't. And. But then to me, it's like. And that's fair. But then to me it's like right now in 2025, we're in a place where, like, you know, you. You've got like, every fucking, what, man that's upright and breathing's got a microphone and a podcast that's red pilling the world and we've got, you know, like the Department of War over here and like, you know, like toxic masculinity and patriarchy is like, like rampant and toxic. And I think there is a space for, like, of course, like, I can understand as a readership, like, there is a space, of course, of wanting to read something that is, you know, feels like a more like an, like an easier reading experience than this versus not anxiety producing.

Sarah MacLean (37:28)

That's a fantasy, right? Like, that's a really lovely fantasy, which is what we traffic in that too.

Adriana Herrera (37:35)

Yes, yes. But I, I do think then, like, I think it's like, I think the point that Jen made is like, honestly, perfect is like, then how. How did that man get that way? Because it requires a lot of work not to be that way.

Sarah MacLean (37:55)

This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by HarperCollins, publishers of @Qureshi, the baby Dragon bakery, the coziest friends to lovers fantasy romance of 2025.

Adriana Herrera (38:08)

Okay, fun.

Jennifer Prokop (38:10)

It's so cute, everybody. Sometimes you just want to, like, have something really cozy. And in this case, we have a cozy fantasy about Lavinia. She is. She, you know, she has. She thinks she has it all. She has a loving family, including an adorable pet baby dragon. She goes to university and is training to be a magical animal veterinarian. And she has a part time at the Baby Dragon Cafe. The only thing she doesn't have is her one true love, Theo. Theo is a local baker and her best friend. And listen, she knows and everyone else knows that they are perfect for each other. He's funny, she's witty, he's sweet, she's a little salty. They've been best friends for as Long as anyone can remember, they've never been without each other. And she is finally ready to make her move. But when she does, Theo apparently does not know that they're meant to be together, because he pulls away and she's just. Just devastated. So has this friendship gone up in smoke awful, or will Theo finally realize that he wants them to be more than friends?

Sarah MacLean (39:13)

Oh, no, Theo, get it together. I believe in you.

Jennifer Prokop (39:17)

I bet this baby dragon has to, like, you know, sting them a little. I love.

Sarah MacLean (39:21)

I love that the baby dragon is.

Jennifer Prokop (39:23)

Gonna have to get involved.

Sarah MacLean (39:24)

It's also important to point out that at Koreshi is very skilled at her own complicated baking. So I feel like if you love a book with a kitchen in it, this one might just be perfect for you. If you feel that way too, you can read the Baby Dragon Bakery right now in print, ebook, or audiobook. And if your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to HarperCollins and at Qureshi for sponsoring this week's episode. Can we point to books where this hero, like, the feminism, is baked into the text and is. Do they are doing this? Well, this sort of, like, here is a hero who, like, understands, like, has already done his work and then is moving forward through the text.

Adriana Herrera (40:25)

Text.

Sarah MacLean (40:26)

And the text is overtly feminist, but not because of him. Does that make sense? Like, the work is being done on the page. And again, I want to underscore what Adriana said at the very beginning, which is you are not required to write this book or read this book. But I'm curious about these books and how they exist in society.

Adriana Herrera (40:48)

And I mean, I think, like, the. The larger of the label of saying, like, I'm, you know, like, this is a feminist romance. Like, what does that mean? Yeah, right.

Daphne (40:56)

What.

Adriana Herrera (40:56)

What? I mean, I'll say this too, and I think that is something also that I see a distinction in terms of, like, at least from the. From my sense of millennial romance as opposed to Gen X romance. I think a lot of the work in Gen X and like, Gen X romance, the hero's, like, journey to happily ever after is really like a big chunk of, like, the character in. In. In the Gen X 1000%.

Sarah MacLean (41:28)

I mean, they are hero stories in many ways.

Jennifer Prokop (41:31)

Correct.

Adriana Herrera (41:31)

You have Elisa Claypas. You have a Susan Elizabeth Phillips, where, you know, that man's journey from beginning to end is the heavy lifting of that book. Like, this woman is already fantastic. She's just up against the wall and it's like, like her grit and her resilience and her magnificence brings him out of, like, patriarchy and her willingness to.

Sarah MacLean (41:58)

Say, I can do this better on my own.

Adriana Herrera (42:00)

Correct. And that is such a core cornerstone of the Gen X, of the great Gen X romance. Not that I'm assuming something Phillips isn't Gen X, but like the books of.

Sarah MacLean (42:13)

The 90s and early. Thoughts. Yeah, yeah.

Adriana Herrera (42:16)

But like, I think in millennial romance, I don't. Like, I don't know if the hero's transformation is that important.

Sarah MacLean (42:27)

What's that. What is that saying? Because if you're so. Obviously, if you come from, like, a dangerous men, adventurous women style. Right. There's that great essay in it from Laura Kinsale saying all romance readers read romances this through the lens of the hero.

Adriana Herrera (42:46)

Right.

Sarah MacLean (42:46)

Which we can. That's a whole separate conver. Like, that's a separate conversation. But if we accept that that is true. Right. Like, just for the purposes of this exercise, like that, we do. We come to books, like you said, in the 90s and early aughts, like Gen X romance, let's call it that comes to the books for the hero's journey. What is the journey that we are reading now in millennial romance and like, new romance and.

Adriana Herrera (43:13)

And like in.

Sarah MacLean (43:17)

Can we. Can we. Can we point to books where we say, like, that is a feminist text. Like, that story is a feminist story, and it is her story.

Jennifer Prokop (43:27)

I don't know if it qualifies as a millennial romance, but I've been thinking about this too, But I do have a book that I think is deeply feminist. It's pretty recent, and it's a book called. But I don't know if that's really answering that question, but I. I'm just. Okay, right. And it's called Careless Whispers by Sia Williams. This might have been one of, like, the best of. And part of the reason that I think this is such an interesting romance is. Okay, so Elena is. I think it's like the third book in a series. She has worked for her father kind of with the. He owns. It's like a tobacco company.

Adriana Herrera (44:03)

Her.

Jennifer Prokop (44:04)

Her family owns, like, a tobacco company, which I think is also really interesting.

Adriana Herrera (44:08)

Right.

Jennifer Prokop (44:08)

Like, just on its face. But Elena is like, well, I have done everything my father wanted me to do because it meant I was gonna be the CEO one day. He was gonna step down and hand the company to me. And the deal was, is that I was going to have to be very cold. Not. You know what I mean? Like, she really bought into the patriarchy kind of whole hook, line, and sinker. And then what happens is her father instead fires her and gives the job to like her Neme. And the journey that she has to go on is very much one where instead of, like, is like, her essentially refuting the patriarchy, like, realizing the ways in which she had believed or agreed to act a certain way with the promise of, like, being rewarded by the patriarchy. And then once that doesn't happen, she has to reevaluate her life.

Sarah MacLean (45:12)

It's island princess starts a scandal, right?

Jennifer Prokop (45:15)

Correct. Yeah, I think so.

Adriana Herrera (45:17)

I mean, I have a couple. I think the Bone Can End the Starling by Elizabeth Stevens is a pretty feminist book, I think. I mean, and I think that's a perfect example of a book where I don't. I mean, I don't know if Elizabeth did, but it's like. It's very much kind of like in the water. Just, like, the way that the story develops ups and where the hero starts and where he ends and the realizations he has along the way because of her, like, really make their world better. Like, by the end, the world is better, concretely better than it was before. And he was already, like, you know, like, he had, like, the. He had, like, the bones of being a good guy, and he was, like, definitely not a bad leader, but, like, he used violence and things like that. And she had to, like, her presence in his life made him have to reevaluate the way he led. And by the end, the world is better off because he met her and because of her. He was changed for the better in the end. And, like, to me, that is. It's not, like, preachy or whatever. It's like banana pants crazy. But, you know, I was like, this is, like, legit, a really feminist book. And I'm like, okay, Elizabeth, I see what you did there. And it was, to me, like, that is kind of like. And I think definitely, I would say that Elizabeth is definitely someone that is writing, like, you know, millennial romance theme. And I thought she really executed that in a way that was. Was, I don't know, refreshing. I really enjoyed it because it was so bonkers, but also because by the end, I was like, this was very satisfying to me as a someone who looks for feminism in. In my romance.

Sarah MacLean (47:12)

Well, what's interesting is you brought that up and, like, Romantasy is so big right now, but, like, there are ways where those books, books with, like, that sort of, like, electric, like, wild world building, like, building that sort of unknown, kind of outside of the realm of anything realistic world ends up delivering you, like, an incredibly feminist experience. Like. And, I mean, you all know I've talked about it a million times, but the Heart of Blood and Ash is a good example of that. Like, the just sort of the wild world building that it's baked into every part of that, like, the religion, the everything of that book. And so I feel like, like, Romantasy has this opportunity to, like, bake it in.

Adriana Herrera (48:04)

Yeah, I mean, I think some people do. Like, I read Everflame by Pen Cole, and I was like. I thought, like, I was like, this is like, really a book that's like, after, like, thinking about, like, power systems and, you know, like, like a heroine that's complicated and. And. And really challenges the hero. So, I mean, another. I mean, Nikki Payne, I think, is writing very feminist books intentionally. Regina Black, like August Lane, I think is like, a really great, really feminist, really big book. And those I would consider, for sure, like millennial romances. And I think they're. They're really, like, after. I mean, like, everything in the world. I honestly think so much of everything is point of view.

Jennifer Prokop (48:58)

Yeah.

Adriana Herrera (48:59)

I think most black and brown women are going to be writing books that are feminist. That's just what it is. I think white women just don't have to think about feminism as much as we do. Like, that's just what it is. Unfortunately, like, white feminism really has, like, us all up.

Jennifer Prokop (49:15)

Yeah, I would agree with that. Have you read Only Lovers in the Building by Nadine Gonzalez?

Adriana Herrera (49:21)

I'm reading it right now, and it's really great. Yeah.

Jennifer Prokop (49:24)

And, well, the thing is, like, okay. So sometimes I'm like, okay, it starts off the bang, right? Like, so she is the lily, is the main character, and she essentially, like, the book opens with her. Like, basically some man gets her promotion, and it's like the big company, you know, Know, essentially, like, Getaway in Miami. And she's like, fuck this. And, like, quits her job and walks out without any plan. And she's just like, I have again. I think I'm very. I think, very drawn to books that unpack, like, feminism through your work.

Adriana Herrera (50:03)

Right.

Jennifer Prokop (50:03)

Like, I think, because I think that's so often how many of us experience the ways in which, like, the world is unfair. And so she like, walks out and she's kind of like, fuck it. And she just, like, rents a place for, I don't know, month or the summer in Miami in, like, an art deco building. But what happens is, like, she meets Ben, who Is, you know, he has like a. I don't know, won some big prize. I can't remember if it's like a MacArthur genius grant or something. But he's a romance reader. And the two of them start off by like, reading together, but by the end of the book, get the whole, like, have formed a community of readers in their building.

Adriana Herrera (50:41)

Right.

Jennifer Prokop (50:42)

And it's small. It's not like the end of this book is not Lily going back to her company and like, emerging victorious. It's her walking away from that entirely and thinking, I have to come up with a new way of like, figuring out like, who I am and what I value and then bringing other people literally along with her. But, you know, I would agree that it's a millennial romance, I think, in the sense that like, Ben kind of comes to the table in some ways already a romance reader.

Adriana Herrera (51:14)

Right.

Jennifer Prokop (51:14)

Which like, stands in for a certain kind of, I think, open mindedness.

Adriana Herrera (51:18)

Yeah.

Jennifer Prokop (51:19)

So regardless of the fact that, like, there wasn't a whole lot of that, like, he's gonna be broken and remade, the whole point of this thing is like, we have this thing that's just the two of us, but, like, we can get more people involved, like literal community, community building.

Adriana Herrera (51:36)

And.

Jennifer Prokop (51:37)

Yeah.

Adriana Herrera (51:37)

And I mean, I don't know what is more feminist than saying, I'm gonna turn away from this, like, corporate situation that's killing me. And what I'm gonna do instead is like, go to what makes me happy and build community around it like that. I mean, and I think that's where like, we get so, like, I don't know if every feminist book has to be like, her going in there and like, blowing up the CEO's desk and then stabbing 17 people. Like, it could just literally be like, I'm going to like, start from scratch and like, really like, do a reset of my values and find a way to. Through my own, like, resetting of like, what is most important to me, like, find a way to like, build community around it. Like, I think that that is part of where I feel like a lot of like the great feminist books of, of like, of romance books are like that. Like, I remember like, reading a Susan. I mean, ain't she Sweet like Sugar Bath. Like, I think about that book a lot because, like, that book was. Came out what, 1990, whatever.

Sarah MacLean (52:53)

It's so good.

Adriana Herrera (52:54)

And like, her best friend is like a black lesbian that owns a bookstore. And it really is a book where she has to come back, she has to reckon, rebuild her, her place in that community. And also like a tone. And in the process, she kind of like, gets that whole community in a better place by the end. I mean, it's the same with, like, Dream a Little Dream. No, which was the one in the.

Jennifer Prokop (53:25)

Next one to drive through.

Adriana Herrera (53:26)

Drive in the drive. Yeah.

Sarah MacLean (53:28)

It feels in many ways like those books, you know, were instinctual. Like, the writing of that book was instinctual for Susan. And I think that sort of chase to community, that journey to community that we point to as like, this is the heroine's journey. This is the thing that all romance moves toward was really instinctual then and now. Like, I think about Ashley Herring Blake's books, right? Like a perfect example of like. Like a move toward community being, like, the cornerstone of those books. When I think about those books, I almost never think about the romance. Almost like I sort of think about all of them sitting around, I don't know, knitting sweaters or doing whatever they do. Right. They don't knit sweaters, but that's how.

Adriana Herrera (54:14)

I feel about that book.

Sarah MacLean (54:15)

They could, and that's what's important. And I think that there's something else going on now, too, in romance where we're seeing. And you and I talked about this when we were together in Boston, Adriana. But this, like, kind of community, the community of millennial romance, like, happening on one side, and I mean all romance, but on the other side, there's a sort of race away in many ways from community. Like, on. When you think about. There are. There are a lot of texts now where, like, it's two people just, like, isolated, and they remain isolated the whole time. And, like, that feels like a really questionable, like, that's not a text that I would ever instinctively call feminist.

Jennifer Prokop (55:03)

This week's episode of Faded Mates is brought to you by Melody Beckett, author of Alien Desire.

Sarah MacLean (55:09)

So he's her only hope, Jen, and she is his secret desire. And if anybody's wondering, that is exactly when I ordered this book, I immediately went and got clicked. Because with the alien Zakal fleet poised to destroy Earth, space force veteran Leila Story has thrown herself into the defense of her home. And she has made an alliance with humanity's last hope, the Tans, a warrior race which has battled these, like, baddie aliens, the Zakul and one. So Layla is willing to do whatever it takes to save Earth, Earth, to save humans, to save humanity, the world, etc. She refuses to let anything or anyone get in her way. The problem is that in her way is a seven foot tall, brooding alien warrior who offers the most delicious Distraction Commander Zach Carell wants to get back to fighting the Zakuul, but his last battle with them left him badly scarred. And the only time he feels at peace, physically or emotionally, is when he is around Leila. So he's decided he is going to protect her. He is going to claim her, and Leila is like, hang on a second. There's no time for love at the end of the world. We have work to do. And he's like, what if this is.

Jennifer Prokop (56:36)

The perfect time for love?

Sarah MacLean (56:39)

I mean, I think that's a lovely thing.

Jennifer Prokop (56:43)

I think he's probably right. Okay, everybody. Alien Desire is the first book in the Taurean warriors series. It is available in print or with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited. And if your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Melody Beckett for sponsoring this week's episode. Well, and I think, like, when you. You, Audrey, I was talking about, like, white feminism has, like, fucked us all, like, right. Like, that vision. I think, like, any book where it's kind of like, well, I am safe and secure.

Adriana Herrera (57:19)

Yeah.

Jennifer Prokop (57:19)

Right. This man will take care of me.

Adriana Herrera (57:22)

Right?

Jennifer Prokop (57:23)

Right. And it doesn't matter what he does outside in the world. Because, like, I mean, like, that to me, is a very. And again, like, romance doesn't have to be didactic, blah, blah, blah. But, like, at the same time, if you are re. If I. You. If you're reading book after book after book after book, where, like, that's what happens.

Sarah MacLean (57:44)

The pull away from Community again and again and again. What are we doing in that text?

Adriana Herrera (57:51)

Yeah, I mean, what. I mean, to me, it just comes down to, like. I mean, it's a romance, right? So, like, the point is, like, the central relationship with these two people. And. And, I mean, I don't read a lot of dark romance. Like, a lot of, you know, I have a hard time reading, like, graphic violence just because of, like, like, my job, my, you know, work in trauma therapy and things like that. But, like, I think part of it, too, like, I. I realize now that I've read a little. Like, I've been reading some Jaquel J's books. And I mean, I wouldn't call her stuff like dark romance, but it's definitely, like, dark light. There's definitely, like. It's like Men in an Organized Crime and, like, all of this stuff.

Jennifer Prokop (58:33)

So.

Adriana Herrera (58:34)

So one of the things that I noticed reading her books, which I have enjoyed a lot, and I, you know, I didn't know if I would. Because I do have a hard time, like, reading about, like. Like reading dark romance. But it is, like, dark light. It's not like, super dark, but like, she has this book called 10,000 Hours with a Rich Menace, which the title itself is just amazing.

Jennifer Prokop (58:55)

I'm getting right now.

Adriana Herrera (58:58)

So 10,000 hours with a Rich Menace was like the first book of hers that I read. And. And it's. I mean, it's honestly, like, super funny too. But one of the things that I really loved about that book and have loved of, like, all the other books of hers that I've read is that the men, the heroes, always have women in their lives that they love and respect. Like, they have an auntie, a gay best friend, a cousin, a sister. Like, they have women in their lives that a will call them to the carpet and they mess up. Up that they are accountable for and who are, like, people that they are already protecting. So, like, the heroine comes into their lives. They're already a protector to other people, to other women in their lives. So that's one thing. Two, there's community. Like, all her. She has kind of like a jewel verse. So, like, all her books are interconnected and it's usually families. Like, there's one like this family. It's like all the guys are named after, like, famous, like, mafia. So like Corleone.

Sarah MacLean (60:01)

It's.

Adriana Herrera (60:02)

I mean, honestly, I really.

Jennifer Prokop (60:05)

That's perfect.

Adriana Herrera (60:08)

I mean, Joel J. Is like a megastar. Like, every book of hers comes. Oh, yeah, number one on the Kindle store for, like, days and days and days. And she has a deep backlist. So anyway, but like, to me, and I was like, okay, this, like, this. I can with like. I can with like, a guy who. He's. I mean, he's crazy. They call him Menace. Yeah. And he's like, you know, they meet and she's had her, like, she ends up going away. So what. What happens is, like, she has this, like. She's a nail tech. She has this client that's her friend invites her to, like, a trip to Mexico, all expenses paid. It turns out that the friend has stolen money from men. Menace. And has used like, the. The heroine's account to, like, put the money. Oh. So she's based, like, he, you know, has her kidnapped. She's in.

Sarah MacLean (61:02)

Perfect.

Adriana Herrera (61:02)

She's in this warehouse and she doesn't even know what's happening. He shows up and he's like, ready to kill because they, you know, you can't steal from Menace. And it's so good. And like. And of course like, the moment he sees her, like, gone, it's a wrap. Like, he. Like, they make up something where he has to, like, have a baby so they end up getting married. Like, it's not like, this all works out perfectly. It all works out perfectly. It's so funny. It's like a really funny book because he's so unhinged that it's just hilarious. But, like, throughout of throughout the book, he never lets her. Like, she's, like, she has to be in his house, but, like, her friends come. Like, she's not, like, isolated from her people. And he had. Has, like, women in his life that are there the entire time. And I'm like, I feel like this feels to me like the darker themes are, like, setting and like, organized crime is kind of like, you know, it's like kind of like wallpaper. Although he does kill a couple people. But, like, it's.

Sarah MacLean (62:04)

I'm sure he has perfectly good reasons.

Adriana Herrera (62:07)

Community is. And family is so central to the heroes. Relationships are so grounded that it makes me feel like I can believe that this man, even though in the world he's in, like, I can believe that he can be a hero for her. Yeah. Because he's already a protector in his life to other women. And so anyway, that her work has given me a lot to think about in terms of, like, darker themes and romance and how, again, going back to point of view, I think, yeah, it's been like, her work to me is, like, fascinating because it's. It's been really surprising. But also, like, she does a lot with. With the books.

Jennifer Prokop (62:56)

Sarah, talk a little bit about, like. I mean, you have the evolution, right. From kind of Ballrooms to the Bells. And I would. It's not that I wouldn't say that Kelly's book is not feminist. Right. But, like, I think that there's ways in which, as you like, it seems purposeful. Right. Like, sort of like Casino. Like, the Casino series was so different. And so was that because you felt you had more freedom to. Like, I, you know, I don't think that you've changed as much as maybe what you.

Sarah MacLean (63:33)

I think that there is. I think I have changed. I think I've learned. Right. Like.

Adriana Herrera (63:39)

Right.

Sarah MacLean (63:39)

I think I grew up like a white girl in a white town, like, who knew about Gloria Steinem and like, Second wave feminism was, you know, like suffragettes. And then you, like, learn over. Hopefully you learn that there is more and things evolve. I would say, Callie, I would say, yes, my early books are. At the time, felt just like I was Writing romance novel. I was writing a book I thought I wanted to write. I had read a million trillion regencies, and I think there certainly the second book in that series is a good example of there was a house full of women. They were all on the run. They had all been harmed. I will say that book is my worst reviewed book of all of my books. I remember feeling very. Doing that intentionally. And I don't know if it's my worst book, but it certainly was a book that was not well received by romance.

Jennifer Prokop (64:51)

But then they wanted more. Kelly.

Adriana Herrera (64:53)

Right.

Sarah MacLean (64:53)

Adriana's making a face. And then now I think, like, yeah, as I got older and wiser and my world expanded and the world became much more. Adriana said something today about use some language today about, like, the election, like, kind of waking up people who were in, like, a deep coma.

Jennifer Prokop (65:19)

Right, right.

Sarah MacLean (65:20)

And I think I luckily, like, I woke up from my deep coma a while back, but there. But then, yeah, the text. Then I did start thinking about it thematically. Like, I never thought of myself as a thematic writer, although looking back on 10 ways, maybe I was always. But now I think, like. And certainly, like, partially reading books, like, all of the ones that we're talking about and thinking about them and knowing people and loving people who are writing, like, just out outrageously good texts that are feminist is. Did change it.

Jennifer Prokop (65:57)

Yeah.

Sarah MacLean (65:58)

And now when I sit down, I'm like, what's the theme? Talking to Adriana and talking to Kennedy. Like, talking to people who lead with theme.

Jennifer Prokop (66:06)

Yeah.

Adriana Herrera (66:07)

I mean, I think consciousness is just so people, like, don't, like, I think, because it just, like, bleeds into, like, how you approach what you want to say. And I think for all of us, like, it is like a. It's like a working progress in terms of, like, a comfort of taking on fearlessness, too.

Sarah MacLean (66:27)

Right. Like risk. And that is a thing that I think a lot of writers, especially non millennial writers, I do think millennial writers are willing to take risks in a way that I think a lot of older writers or writers who came through the genre, you know, know, before me and even with me were told, like, don't rock this boat because you're going to lose half your readers. You're not going to be able, like, everybody's going to hate the book. Like, the moment somebody calls it politically political, you're going to be painted with this brush. And, like, the willingness to say that I'm here to tell the story I can tell or I want to tell is. It's a risk.

Adriana Herrera (67:19)

Yeah. I mean, I think. And in this environment especially, like, I think it is. It is. I mean, I think for some of us, it's not a choice. Right? Like, I think black women for queer women, for people of color, like, you know, just writing the books that we're writing or like, two people of color get to be happy together is already political. So, like, we don't. We don't have a choice, but we might as well, like, go hard because we're already going to, like, we're all already making choices that are, like, whittling away our ability to be, like, palatable to, like, quote, unquote, best audiences. But, like, I think. I think in general, it is. Especially with traditional publishing, I think traditional publishing now is in a position where, like, you know, they've. They are now kind of like just seeing what's really popular on its own on ku, and, like, the model for hack positions has changed. So I don't even know how much you're thinking about, like, what's the content and themes in the books as much as they used to. But, I mean, it wasn't a long, like, too long ago where, like, you know, you were told that you had to be careful. You couldn't say this, you couldn't say that.

Sarah MacLean (68:40)

And I think a lot of people are still feel. Still feel that way.

Adriana Herrera (68:44)

Oh, 100%.

Sarah MacLean (68:46)

I mean, like, I'm. I'm here to tell all those white ladies, like, guess what? You're gonna find as many readers as you lose.

Adriana Herrera (68:51)

So, man, I mean, I think. I mean, in the real. I mean, and that's where we go back to, like, romance is huge. Everybody's here with a point of view, with a sense of, like, with a. And some people are out here writing for. Were women who voted for Trump. Like, let's just be real.

Jennifer Prokop (69:09)

Right? Right.

Adriana Herrera (69:10)

And so, because they. They did themselves. So, like, that's like. That's also a reality. Like, romance has everything, and there's, like, an immense amount of romance out there that is, like, thinking about, like, justice and, like, diversity and intersectionality. And there's a lot of Romans that's thinking an insurrectionist is my hero. And that's just what it is, unfortunately. I mean, you know, I mean, happy for them that they can read a book they enjoy.

Sarah MacLean (69:40)

But I also want to say, like, I think one of the. One of the. There's sort of a sickness in thinking about romance as a feminist genre, like, in general, that there is a sort of sense of, like, well, if we don't interrogate, like, because like, if we interrogate the text, then we are anti feminist or like, we are. We're bad feminists, right? We're bad. We're not support. Or rather we're bad at. We are critical of the sisterhood.

Jennifer Prokop (70:11)

How about that?

Sarah MacLean (70:12)

Like, there's sort of a sense of like, yeah, we have to support everyone in this business because patriarchy has held romance down or patriarchy has made romance some sort of like, you know, less valuable genre. And I think that the work of certainly, like, I hope that the work of faded mates, but also I think, like, the work of anybody who loves romance is to interrogate it and sort of say, like, these are the things that are valuable about the, the texts and these are the things that are poisoning the well.

Adriana Herrera (70:54)

Yeah.

Jennifer Prokop (70:55)

Like, I think a lot about, like, the race to innocence, right? Which is like a. There's a great TikTok where the guy sort of describes, like, what it is, right? Which is like, if what you want to do is like retreat and run to the place where you are marginalized and then not talk about all of the places in which you're privileged, right? Like, you are working against, like, everybody being off, right? You're. You're running, you're running away from that. And I think that that to me is a place where many, where I see the people who feel most. Right, like, sort of threatened by this conversation, like, running. Right. Doing that. Right. But I am, you know, but like my characters are, you know, for, for what, What. In whatever way, right? Like, this is the way in which they are marginalized. And therefore, if I just talk about that, I don't have to talk about the way in which they're privileged.

Sarah MacLean (71:54)

But also, and just to add the other layer, which is we often hear from, from authors that, like, well, I am a woman and my readers are women, so this text is feminist, right?

Adriana Herrera (72:07)

So that's. Yeah. And. Yeah. And I mean, that's. That's just tacitly not true. But, like, that's. Yeah. I mean, and that's the thing where I'm like, like, it is what it is because if. If being a woman made you someone that is a feminist, then we wouldn't be in the position we're in right now because I just always like to remind everybody that 53% of white women did vote for Donald Trump in the last election, right? So I don't care what you're doing with your life. I don't care if you were in a feminist shirt every day, if you voted for Donald Trump, you are not a Feminist. Feminist, Correct. Well, we'll get on the 8, 8 o' clock news, on the 9 o' clock news and the 10 o' clock news to tell you that. And so like. Right. That is just what it is. And I assume a lot of those women are in books. Right?

Sarah MacLean (72:54)

For the record, there are many reasons why you are not a feminist, but like just so that for those of you who are like, well, how come? Because I still. Whatever.

Jennifer Prokop (73:02)

I'm Samantha. I wanted what I wanted, Right. I chose what I chose.

Sarah MacLean (73:06)

The, the platform that that man ran on was about rolling back equity rights. The, the, the equal rights of everyone who wasn't a white man, a Cis hat white man.

Adriana Herrera (73:24)

The world is objectively less safe for literally everybody.

Sarah MacLean (73:29)

Yeah, everybody.

Jennifer Prokop (73:30)

Well, and it wasn't like last week and in the news, I guess it was, you know, the New York Times doing one thing I can admire whatever saying, like essentially what, 350,000 black women have lost jobs and 350,000 white men have gained them.

Adriana Herrera (73:47)

Yes.

Jennifer Prokop (73:49)

And that.

Adriana Herrera (73:50)

Right.

Jennifer Prokop (73:51)

Is not just an anti feminist act, but like misogynoir.

Adriana Herrera (73:57)

Right.

Jennifer Prokop (73:57)

Like an act that was explicitly meant to put black women in particular into a worse spot.

Adriana Herrera (74:04)

And so even if we're going by the rule of if you are just looking out for other women, then you're a feminist. You have failed that.

Sarah MacLean (74:12)

You failed that too.

Adriana Herrera (74:13)

And so we're back to. And so again, like that. I think, I think it is true that. I think this idea that we can claim that romance is feminist as blanket statement is just. It's not true. I think, I think a lot of romance that perhaps isn't seeking to be feminist, I think can be greatly feminist because again, it doesn't really have to be that complicated. And I think a lot of romance that claims to be feminist because somebody's been, some woman's been stabbing people may not be feminist because in the end what makes something feminist is not about your individual ability to and you know, get revenge. Although sometimes it is. It is like how, how the world moves with you.

Sarah MacLean (75:09)

And I think that actually if you're a faded mates, Faded mates listener. One of the things that's really interesting to Jen and I always when we have these trailblazer interviews is how many of the women who, you know, wrote these books that we, you know, point to often and say, like, oh, this like ancient text of romance, like, does feel feminist in some way when you actually speak to them, when you actually ask them about the writing of the text, they often, I would say half. Fully, Fully half of Them are like, oh, I didn't. I didn't think about it that way. I don't think about my books that way. And so it's a good example of, like, sometimes it's just baked in there and. And you don't even know.

Adriana Herrera (75:52)

It's just how you see the world. Like, you see the world as a place where if you're in it, you should do your part. And if you're in it and you're the hero, because everybody doesn't have to be feminist, but if you're the protagonist, if the book is about you, then you should be behaving like a hero or heroine.

Sarah MacLean (76:14)

Genre drives us to be our best self.

Jennifer Prokop (76:16)

Ourselves.

Adriana Herrera (76:17)

Yeah.

Sarah MacLean (76:18)

And leave the world in a better place.

Jennifer Prokop (76:20)

Like I said, our listeners might be like, I don't care about this. I haven't thought about it. What does it mean? Or not to me as a person or someone in the world? And I just think, like, Right. If you are a person who is like, the gender or sexual orientation of a person in the world should not actually determine anything about how the things they can accomplish or achieve. Right. The race or ethnicity or the language a person speaks.

Adriana Herrera (76:46)

Right.

Jennifer Prokop (76:47)

Like, if you believe in the idea that the world should be better for everyone, people should be able to, like, make their way in it and be successful regardless of, like, those external factors that other people might judge you for. Then you're feminist. Welcome to our club.

Sarah MacLean (77:03)

So, sorry, but.

Adriana Herrera (77:05)

Sorry, but you're already in the club.

Jennifer Prokop (77:08)

Right?

Adriana Herrera (77:09)

Yeah.

Sarah MacLean (77:10)

And it's not a bad word.

Adriana Herrera (77:12)

Work tomorrow in combat boots and curse out every man at your job like you don't know.

Jennifer Prokop (77:17)

Right, right, right.

Adriana Herrera (77:19)

You don't have to tell every man you hate him. Although you can say it internally like you don't. Well, and I think that's it.

Jennifer Prokop (77:26)

I think a lot about, like, what, you know, like feminism. You know, one of the ways they get you right is by teaching you that feminism is about anger.

Adriana Herrera (77:35)

Yes. And hating men.

Jennifer Prokop (77:37)

Yes.

Sarah MacLean (77:38)

Yeah. It's not. Ms. Andre. That's a different word.

Adriana Herrera (77:42)

Which I. I d. Sometimes I have that. Which I dabble in because let's be real.

Jennifer Prokop (77:51)

And I think that if, you know, if that's what you believe, if that's what you've been taught, like you said.

Sarah MacLean (77:56)

Jen, that's how they get us. The goal is to turn it into villainy, because God forbid we should all just be working toward a better life for as many of us as possible.

Adriana Herrera (78:12)

Yeah.

Sarah MacLean (78:14)

Anyway, all of this is to say, interrogate your books. It's okay. Like yeah, it's fine.

Jennifer Prokop (78:22)

And also, listen, I have had a delightful time reading romances that I do not consider feminist. Right. Like, you know, this is not something where. And that's the other. Like, the other. The other way they get you is like, that is joylessness. Right. To be feminist is to be joyless and. And. And dried up like a prison.

Adriana Herrera (78:39)

True.

Jennifer Prokop (78:41)

Not true. Look at me. I'm plump and delicious.

Adriana Herrera (78:44)

Plump and delicious. Fully moisturized, hydrated. I mean, I think. Yes. I think that is the key to up. I mean, you. And you just have to listen to the way people on the right talk about feminism, about angry women, about everybody's ugly. And it's like we're all out here traveling, enjoying ourselves, having an aperol spritzer. Like you're all the miserable ones.

Sarah MacLean (79:06)

Yeah.

Adriana Herrera (79:07)

And I think.

Sarah MacLean (79:09)

Like, I'm riding the subway.

Adriana Herrera (79:12)

Right.

Sarah MacLean (79:12)

I'm feeling fine.

Adriana Herrera (79:14)

We're out here reading our books. So I think that's. That is part of it. Like, it's. It's like making the distinction that it really is about. When it comes down to is. Feminism is. Is a value system that contemplates the idea that we should all be safer. We should all have the opportunities to make our lives better and to make our children's lives better and that our communities are well off. Everybody's healthy, everybody's safe. And that can take a lot of different forms. And you can be at a PhD level with it, or you could be not at a PhD level with it. But again, I dispute that because I think you have a very sophisticated system sense of, like, what you think is justice, that paints everything that you consume. The reality is, unfortunately, romance is a very, like, a genre where a lot of great stuff is happening. Yeah. Yeah. Really smart people write it and read it. And we have some texts that can challenge any. Any other literary fiction text in this level of, like. Like the execution of a feminist work. And I think it's important to, like, say that, like, that work. Of, like, that work within romance is, like, fundamental and really important to the survival of the genre. Honestly.

Simon Lockwood (80:54)

Yes.

Sarah MacLean (80:54)

Yes.

Adriana Herrera (80:56)

Like, it all doesn't have to be. Be it. It all doesn't have to be. But I think it's very important that it stays there and it continues there with intention.

Jennifer Prokop (81:05)

Yeah. And that this is something we talk about. I mean, I think that's exactly it. Like, it doesn't have to all be there, but it is a big part of, like, what we aspire to and like, what we believe as people and readers and authors. And so yeah, it's important. If we just say, like, we can throw that out. I do think it is throwing the genre out.

Sarah MacLean (81:25)

I also just want to say, like, and they can be bangers too.

Adriana Herrera (81:30)

Oh, they all are. They are. Yeah.

Sarah MacLean (81:33)

And like, I think that's the other thing. I think people get really nervous when they're like, when you say to somebody, like, this book, right? Like, Heather Guare's preferential treatment is a referendum on billionaires. Like, and they're like, oh, I don't know that I want that. And it's like, no, no. But also, so it's a banger.

Jennifer Prokop (81:53)

You know, like, we can do. We can chew gum and walk at the same time.

Adriana Herrera (81:56)

Everybody, I need to talk about one book that I forgot and I should have remembered because actually it's, I think hits all of the categories. So it's. I've talked to you guys about her and you haven't read her yet, I think, and I'm very mad at you about it. It's Rebecca Kincaid.

Sarah MacLean (82:11)

Wait, I have Go On Stream Streams and Schemes series.

Jennifer Prokop (82:17)

She has.

Adriana Herrera (82:17)

It's. I mean, she has other books, but that series. Series is about three women who are cam girls. They're three. They're all sex workers and all the heroes are white. All the women are not white. She. Like, two of them are Mexican ones. Filipino. Mexican. And those books are like, objectively some of the best erotic romance I have ever read. They are filthy. She is. Is probably to me, one of the people that like, does kink the best that I've read, Like, oh, like, of all the kink that I read. She does. She. She just. She's. They're funny. They're so, so hilarious. There's great found family because the heroes are all best friends and the heroines are all best friends. Like, the women stay sex workers. Like, they don't have to quit their job. Jobs.

Jennifer Prokop (83:12)

Right.

Adriana Herrera (83:12)

Or whatever. And like, they're all like. All the guys are in like, high, you know, like, one's a banker, one's a politician, one is like a very high powered lawyer. And so they're negotiating these relationships with these women that like, quote unquote, would put them in positions where, like, they could have issues with their own reputations. Those books, like, I don't know if she wrote them as, like, I'm gonna write this feminist book. But baby, she. She is writing feminist books. And they are legitimately the dirtiest books I've read in years.

Sarah MacLean (83:48)

I mean, that's all I need to know. And I did download them and I didn't read them, so I'm gonna leave this room.

Adriana Herrera (83:54)

I know you haven't texted again. You would have been texting me. And to me, that. Like, that, like, I. I told Alexis Daria to read them, and immediately she started texting me because, baby, they banned bang. And. And, like, the conflict in those books is fantastic. Like. Like, they're just so, so, so, so good. There's completely millennial romance, like, in all of the different ways that I, like, see millennial romance, like, kind of having, like, certain themes and, you know, like, they're just fun to read. They're, like, so fun. They bring down the patriarchy. The. The men are. They have the mouths on these men. And to me, like, I was like, this. This kind of romance, like, if we keep doing this, like, romance is gonna be just fine.

Jennifer Prokop (84:52)

Yep.

Sarah MacLean (84:53)

Well, this is why I have started dnfing books where the heroin doesn't come first. Oh, baby, my. This is just my, like, new thing.

Jennifer Prokop (85:01)

You're like, there's a line in the sand.

Sarah MacLean (85:05)

There is a lack of cunnilingus that I don't care for, and if she doesn't come first, I don't want it.

Adriana Herrera (85:11)

And I don't think that's that. I mean, I think that's. I said what I said. I mean, to me, that's, like, bare minimum.

Sarah MacLean (85:17)

That's like the bar is on the floor. Feminism.

Adriana Herrera (85:22)

Right?

Jennifer Prokop (85:22)

Absolutely.

Adriana Herrera (85:25)

Anyway, go read Rebecca Kincaid and DM me.

Sarah MacLean (85:28)

Water is fine is what Adriana said. Say.

Adriana Herrera (85:33)

When you read her, you will. You will let me know that you read her because. Fantastic.

Sarah MacLean (85:41)

Amazing.

Daphne (85:42)

Well.

Sarah MacLean (85:45)

I hope everybody enjoyed coming to school with us today. If all feminism classes were like this, we'd all be gender. Gender studies majors, and that would be. Be better for everyone.

Jennifer Prokop (85:58)

So.

Sarah MacLean (86:00)

Adriana, thank you, as always, for being with us. We love having you in our dms, in our. In our texts, and here on Zoom. Tell everybody. So the next thing is the Kickstarter.

Adriana Herrera (86:15)

The next thing is the Kickstarter. I have another novella coming out later this year of my Omega version. Verse fun novellas. I put a Hidden Run last year, and this year I'm putting out another one, probably, like, late November.

Sarah MacLean (86:30)

Okay.

Adriana Herrera (86:31)

Like, the next thing that I'm putting out, that's just mine, but otherwise you can still, like, pledge for after the end.

Sarah MacLean (86:40)

And that's after the end, romance.com, after.

Adriana Herrera (86:43)

The instruments dot com. Or you can just go to Kickstarter and it's after the end, you know, Kickstarter.

Sarah MacLean (86:49)

Adriana, like I said, we love having you. I'm Sarah McLean. I'm here with my friends Jen Pro cup and Adriana Herrera. We are Fated Mates. You can find us every Wednesday wherever you listen to your podcasts. If you head over to fatedmates.net you can click on Episodes and find in Show Notes a list of all the books that we referenced today, including maybe a reading list that Adriana will give us of like books that she thinks if you want to learn more about feminism in general, like great bangers of reads related to feminism and intersectional feminism and third wave feminism and everything that came after Gloria Steinem. And also you can find us online on threadsmates Pod, on Instagram at Fmates Pod, and on Blue sky at Fated Mates. It is September, which means in November we are coming up on the Virginia State elections. Virginia is the this will be the first election that we come to after the big one last year. Blue. We are trying very hard to keep Virginia blue where it is blue and flip it blue where it is not blue. The States Project is doing that with us. We are raising money for the state's project in Virginia for down ticket races to make sure Democrats win. We want this to be a route and you can help. You can find out more about that by clicking on Faded states over@fadedmates.net where you can join our community building space where we are fundraising as a group. And other than that, it's the autumn, it's the. It's the fall. And we love you everybody, and we hope that you're having a great time and we hope that you're reading great books and when you read a book that's a banger and also feminist, please let us know. Let Adriana know too. She wants to hear. So don't forget to stick around right after this week's episode for a special sneak peek of the audio book of Pippa Grant's the Spite Date. Again, thanks to Pippa for sponsoring this week's episode.

Simon Lockwood (89:06)

Chapter two. Welcome to Athena's Rest. Maybe Simon Lockwood, AKA a British actor and single dad who has no idea an apology, is about to turn his world upside down. Well, this is awkward. One minute I've stopped short in utter delight at the sight of a food truck parked at the end of this street of shops in Athena's Rest, New York, thinking I'd like to finish my errands with a burger from this unique establishment. And the next, my security man is telling me that I had the owner arrested for trespassing at my estate while I was in the shower this morning. Morning Was he on foot or did he arrive by burger bus? I inquire of Pinky. Pinky growls low in his throat as he boxes me in between a building and a potted plant at the end of the street. His head is down over his phone, undoubtedly texting someone for an explanation. He's a broad Scottish fellow who has the least patience of the three security men that the studio has insisted trail me and my boys since the unexpected breakout success of one of my television shows. She claimed you booked a party, pinky tells me. I peer through the bush at the food van bus. The food bus much larger than the food vans back in London or the food carts in New York City. It's an actual school bus, painted with hamburgers stacked on their sides, a little pickle over the back wheel well and above the window cut out for service. Best Burger Bus is spelled out and adorned with flowers that have hamburgers in the center. I didn't book a party, though were I to, I would certainly entertain the idea of having it catered by a burger bus. How adorably charming. He stares at me and as I stare back I have a bloody good idea what the man's thinking. You book a party and not Taylor's boss? He asks rather than answering. I pull my own phone from my trouser pocket. Pocket heat is gathering on my neck. You say you we had her arrested. She hacked the gate code, got all the way to the front door. I flip open my bank app and begin scrolling, though it's unnecessary to scroll far. The day is quite warm, but not warm enough to justify the increasing heat at the base of my neck. Fraud report. Credit Issued is the first entry on the list of charges with the vendor reported to be Best Burger Bus. I clear my throat and continue scrolling. Do you recall when I misplaced my phone for a full day last weekend? I say to Pinky. He grunts. I check the date as I come across the original charge to the Best Burger Bus and I discover I'm lacking the correct word. What exactly is more awkward than regular awkward? Awkward. A voice distracts me from my own embarrassment at the trouble I suspect my children have caused and I turn to watch the burger bus again. A brown haired woman is leaning out of the service window and having a lively discussion with a police officer. You're over the line, B, the policeman is saying. I squint closer behind my sunglasses at her. Is that her? I murmured to Pinky. Yes.

Adriana Herrera (92:40)

Face.

Simon Lockwood (92:40)

She smirks at the officer, showing off her dimples.

Daphne (92:44)

Measure again and use your glasses. This Time I can park this thing on a dime.

Simon Lockwood (92:49)

You just got it a month ago.

Daphne (92:51)

Yeah, and I got my bus driver's license when Griff started high school. Been doing this for years. Want to see me spin it in a donut?

Simon Lockwood (92:59)

Chief didn't approve that.

Daphne (93:02)

But he did approve me selling my fish here this afternoon.

Simon Lockwood (93:06)

She hands him a piece of paper.

Daphne (93:08)

See? Authorization directly from him right here. You can keep it. I made copies. Had a feeling I'd need a lot of them.

Simon Lockwood (93:17)

It's over the line.

Daphne (93:20)

It doesn't look over the line to.

Simon Lockwood (93:21)

Me, a tattooed brunette standing next to the officer says. She shakes her head. And no, not brunette. Her short straight hair has layers of blue and green in it that are only noticeable when the sun catches it. Right?

Daphne (93:41)

Daphne has excellent vision, bea says. Do you want me to call the chief for a tie breaking vote? I'm sure he'd love to hear another of his officers is harassing me today.

Simon Lockwood (93:53)

The uniformed gentleman winces. Truly, I wince too. This woman B. She's had a dreadful day because of me. I believe I owe this woman an apology. I say to Pinky, bad idea, boss. That's been the answer since in the Weeds became an accidental runaway success two years ago, propelling me into the international spotlight for the first time in my otherwise lackluster career. Don't apologize. Don't admit to wrongdoing. Don't give anyone an opportunity to sue you when people know you have money. Excellent advice, Truly, and I intend to ignore it. I open my mouth to say as much, but become distracted by a blond haired chap who dashes out of the establishment on the corner. She can't park that here, he says to the policeman. She needs a permit. No permits given today. Chief okayed it, the policeman says. The blonde man folds his arms and stares at the police officer. The police officer shrugs and repeats himself. Chief okayed it. You got a problem with her, take it up with her. I can't make her move. It's wrong to huddle behind this potted plant and watch this unfold. But I still find myself opening my note taking app on my phone after months of not having any inspiration for a comedy series I'm contractually obligated to provide to the studio that made me famous. I'm feeling a whiff of creativity coming on. Could be the warm late afternoon summer air. Could be the charming little road beyond the burger bus called Secret Alley, which is lined with quaint one and two story shops that seem to have come from a different time and where I'd just located my favourite brand of tea, much to my surprise. Or it could be that this Burger Bus woman is utterly fascinating. She has good energy. Pluck, as they say. Despite my own deep feelings of guilt for what I've put her through, I'm rather enjoying watching this Pinky audibly sighs. We should call boss.

Adriana Herrera (96:05)

Shh.

Simon Lockwood (96:07)

The blond man is squaring up to talk to Bea. I know why you're doing this, and you need to stop stalking me, Daphne. The woman with the multicolored hair chortles out a laugh. Bea leans further out the window.

Daphne (96:23)

I'm not stalking you, Jake. I'm annoying you.

Simon Lockwood (96:27)

Good line. Well done. Annoy me somewhere else, Jake snaps.

Daphne (96:34)

Oh, you think I can just wave a magic wand and make somewhere else a better spot for customer traffic? I would love for the best spot in town to not be outside your father's office. Here's an idea. How about he moves the secret alley could do so much better than an ambulance chaser's propaganda at the entrance. Don't you have extra office space in the building you stole from me?

Simon Lockwood (96:56)

I did not steal it. Daphne coughs.

Daphne (97:00)

Liar.

Simon Lockwood (97:02)

Despite my own embarrassment at my boy's behavior and the situation they put this woman into, I can't stop smiling. Bea, it appears, can't either, though her smile is harder than her friends. She tucks a lock of curly brown hair behind her ear and props her elbows on the windowsill.

Daphne (97:20)

Yes, and your brother didn't arrest me for the pure fun of it this morning. I could sue the police department. That would look great on his record. I have a friend in the city who needs pro bono cases.

Simon Lockwood (97:32)

Daphne pipe and helping.

Daphne (97:35)

A down on her luck woman who hasn't caught a break since she had to quit college to raise her brothers after their parents tragically died is great optics for my friend. Clearly not for your brother or for B. But that's exactly why everyone would take her side over yours. She's sympathetic. You're an ass.

Simon Lockwood (97:55)

Good Lord, this was a terrible woman to have accidentally arrested. I hope she's a fan of in the weeds. Can you tell her to shut up and give us some privacy? Jake says to Bea. Bea snorts.

Daphne (98:12)

For you. No, Daphne, get closer and keep talking like this. Close.

Simon Lockwood (98:20)

Daphne steps closer to Jake.

Daphne (98:23)

Closer would be better. He hates when you're in his bubble.

Adriana Herrera (98:27)

Ew.

Daphne (98:28)

He smells like sulfur and pickles. But fine, fine. Is this close enough?

Simon Lockwood (98:34)

Jake stumbles back and almost trips on the curb. I'm calling the chief.

Daphne (98:40)

Have at it, you big stud bee.

Simon Lockwood (98:43)

Makes a low growling cat purr that takes both me and my cock by surprise.

Daphne (98:50)

You know how much I love it when you tattle to death.

Simon Lockwood (98:53)

Daphne snorts again, Jake growls and charges back into the shop he emerged from moments ago. I adjust my trousers, then go back to typing notes to myself. I'd prefer to use dictation, but I am on a street making notes about the woman arrested on the order of my proxies this morning, likely to be spotted by any number of the people also strolling by or pausing to watch. And I don't need to speak out loud to draw attention to myself. Myself. Not many Brits around. I stand out by virtue of my accent, never mind my fame. Still getting used to it, to be honest. While it's thrilling to be asked for pictures and going out in disguise is an amusing kind of fun, there are a few downsides, such as needing security and the way that they're terrifying. Don't misunderstand. Tank, Butch, and Pinky are good at their jobs, but also terrifying. Three security specialists are perhaps overkill, but then, the studio executives are familiar with my boys, so possibly not overkill after all. The other biggest downside to fame is regularly being asked what's next? I was happily rolling along in the obscurity of Barely Not Broke actor land roughly two years ago when an influencer livestreamed herself watching the show that launched to crickets three years before this. That overnight I became a household name, and the studio is demanding that I cough up the contracted material for a new show without delay to capitalize on my moment in the spotlight now that we've rushed through a second season of in the Weeds. Far easier said than done to deliver new material, though unfortunately Pinky nudges me. Best get on with it. Get on within right, of course. I pocket my phone and he and I step out from behind the foliage to approach the burger bus. Sense of cooking oil and chips Pardon? French fries permeate the air. People mill about the cobblestone pavements on either side of this charming side street off the main road. But the policeman has left and so has Jake. Daphne is nowhere to be seen on the street either. Be is no longer at the window. Window. I approach it and rap on the windowsill near the front of the bus. Hello? The woman I recognize as Daphne appears inside the vehicle, wiping her hands with a towel as she turns to approach me.

Daphne (101:30)

It'll be a few minutes. We're still warming up the oh fuck, are you serious?

Simon Lockwood (101:36)

I smile pleasantly at her. Could I please speak with Ms. Beth?

Adriana Herrera (101:43)

Why?

Simon Lockwood (101:44)

To offer My sincerest apologies for the mix up this morning.

Daphne (101:48)

As opposed to your insincerest apologies.

Simon Lockwood (101:52)

Ah, yes, my insincerest apologies. I have been known to make those on occasion. I pull my sunglasses over the brim of my baseball hat so that she can see me wink. I save those for when I accidentally mow down a man after he's been unnecessarily rude to a lady. Lady? Ms. Best, please be herself. Appears behind Daphne.

Daphne (102:16)

Daph, what's wrong? Are you for real right now?

Simon Lockwood (102:22)

Ms. Best? My smile falters in the face of the unamused energy radiating off her. I'm sim.

Daphne (102:29)

I know who you are.

Simon Lockwood (102:31)

Complimentary. That was not. Not that I deserve for this to be easy. She should not have ended up in jail over me. I see. I wish to.

Daphne (102:43)

I wish to see you gone. Tally ho, good potheads. I do believe this is the end. As it should be. Cheese shop is that way. You should check it out.

Simon Lockwood (102:54)

Ah.

Daphne (102:54)

I'm lactose intolerant. I know that about you, too.

Simon Lockwood (102:59)

My head might be spinning. This woman can quote in the weeds and knows my stomach cannot digest cheese, but nothing about her skin suggests she's a fan. There's likely another explanation, and this one has me smiling again. You must know Lana, my ex. The boy's mother, who's still one of my best friends and who's rather tied up with family issues, hence my summer in her hometown to be the primary caregiver for the boys. She doesn't mince words, good or bad. It's perfectly fine. I'm aware my shortcomings exist, and I'm very comfortable with forgiving myself for them, though this situation is a little more difficult than most. This may be the first time someone has been arrested because of me, and I dislike that immensely, especially as she was very likely innocent in the whole ordeal. She continues to frown at me.

Daphne (103:58)

Do I know who Lana is?

Adriana Herrera (104:00)

Yes.

Daphne (104:01)

Do I know her personally? No.

Simon Lockwood (104:03)

I open my mouth, close it, and try once more. Ms. Best, I'd like to apologize.

Daphne (104:11)

Sure. Whatever. All's forgiven.

Simon Lockwood (104:14)

All does not sound forgiven, is it? She squeezes her eyes shut, then sighs long and loud when she opens them again, as though my face is the last in a string of very bad things about her day.

Daphne (104:28)

Day it is. If forgiving you means you'll let me try to salvage the rest of this day and get back to opening my bus to sell my fish, she says.

Simon Lockwood (104:38)

I wince to myself. So it doesn't go bad. Of course. Daphne coughs again, and this time it's Accompanied by a dick. Bea shoots her the same kind of look Lana regularly gives the boys, half frustration, half exhaustion. Well, he is, daphne whispers.

Daphne (105:01)

Apologies won't pay for the fish he stuck you with.

Simon Lockwood (105:04)

Heat once again gathers at the base of my neck. Rather doubt it's because of the summer breeze. More because I'm realizing Bee might be in the same kind of spot in which I found myself more than once over the past 15 or 20 years. Is, that is to say, in a financial pickle. But this time it's because of me. And naturally I'll reverse the fraud report. My accountant must have made it. Did I mention the suspicious part of Bea's gaze? Because that's aimed fully at me now will you? She says. Of course I fear fish.

Daphne (105:47)

Doubt that your biggest fanboy would have told me if you fished.

Simon Lockwood (105:51)

I'm rather wary of the tone she's using. It's ominous. I shake my head. No, no. This is a burger bus.

Daphne (106:00)

Why are you selling fish called a secret menu, dude. And you ordered all of it, daphne says.

Simon Lockwood (106:09)

A secret menu. This is the best and worst experience I've ever had. Had. Highly inspirational. Highly mortifying.

Daphne (106:21)

Your kids did it, didn't they?

Simon Lockwood (106:23)

Bea says to me. I find there's no good answer to that question that doesn't ultimately leave the blame for your experience this morning solely on my shoulders. And I do apologize for myself and for the role my children may have played as well. The two women share a look.

Daphne (106:40)

Didn't expect that, Daphne murmurs. Still don't want to keep seeing his.

Simon Lockwood (106:47)

Face, bea murmurs back, and I smile. It is my default facial expression. But in this case you both rather dislike me. It's odd these days. Also oddly refreshing in a way I'd like to not examine. Daphne pins me with a flat stare that makes uneasy tingles dance down my spine.

Daphne (107:11)

We don't know you. You pulled a double cross on my best friend and got her sent to jail. And I've met a few celebrities in my life. Too many of you think you can get away with anything just because you have a pretty smile. I'd say we're suspicious, but sure, we can use your words and say instead that we rather dislike you. Are you going to fix the payment problem or not?

Simon Lockwood (107:34)

I've also met a few celebrities in my life, clearly. And while many of them are marvellous human beings, I can unfortunately understand her suspicions. I dig into my trousers for my phone. Again, I do apologize again. Little fuckers can be quite sneaky. I'll call the credit card company myself straight away.

Daphne (107:55)

You know it'll take days to get this straightened out.

Simon Lockwood (107:58)

Of course. Happy to pay again immediately. The rest shall sort itself out in the wash. They share another look and then Daphne grabs a tablet, navigates the screen and holds it out to me with the card reader attached. I glance at the readout on the card reader. She's extended my way, verify it's roughly what I'd expect and I add a 50% tip. Once again the women eyeball each other, then they share a shoulder shrug, shrug, and then they both look at me with matching are we done now? Expressions Utterly fascinating how they're in sync now that I've made this situation right. I need to wrap this up so I can get home and take notes, make some character sketches. Are you sisters? I ask them. They don't pause to share any glances before both staring at me as though they've never seen my level of idiocy in their lives. Lives. To be fair, it's a rather ignorant question. They look nothing alike. Bees, light brown curls that keep escaping her sloppy bun and her bright green dress. The twin dimples in her cheeks and her long nose and wide pink lips are near polar opposites to Daphne's straight multi hued dark hair, brown eyes, button nose and Cupid's bow lips, which are stained eyes deep burgundy. Bea's at least 2 inches taller, though I have no idea what shoes either are wearing, which could clearly change their heights. But Daphne has a smaller frame to be's perfect curves. She's far from a waif, but she's also noticeably smaller than Bea. No, they answer together. My security man clears his throat. I know that throat clear. It means it's time to move on. I truly am sorry for your inconvenience, Ms. Best, I say. I'll monitor the boys. Better to ensure this doesn't happen again.

Daphne (110:00)

Where are your children, Mr. Luckwood?

Simon Lockwood (110:03)

I requested my other two security agents sit on them until I return. I'm sure they've not caused any more mayhem. I smile at her again. She doesn't return the expression, so I clear my throat. Ah, they're with their mother. She picked them up over their loud protests that I didn't understand at the time. Soon before you arrived.

Daphne (110:25)

Hope you took their credit card away, daphne murmurs.

Simon Lockwood (110:30)

Of course. Yes. And Lana's a far better parent than I am. I'm certain they'll cause no more mischief while with her there it is more silent communication between the two words. Women. I clear my throat again. I'll also inform the staff that you're welcome to call around bees, brows knit together.

Daphne (110:54)

Generous as that offer might be, it's unnecessary.

Simon Lockwood (110:58)

Daphne leans on the windowsill.

Daphne (111:01)

Or are you asking her on a date?

Simon Lockwood (111:05)

I. I start, then realize I have perhaps made a miscalculation, but also so a date wouldn't be a bad idea. My head is absolutely spinning with ideas for a new pilot to show the studio after this encounter. No, merely that if it happens again.

Daphne (111:25)

It won't be says she's a little.

Simon Lockwood (111:30)

Over men right now, daphne says in a stage whisper.

Daphne (111:35)

Even famous British single dads with the world's most popular TV show. Or possibly especially famous British single dads who play total dicks on that popular TV show.

Simon Lockwood (111:47)

A murmur breaks out behind me. Daphne straightens and makes a your next come on up gesture.

Daphne (111:56)

Secret menu only today and it's all on the house. Fish on a stick. It'll be ready in just a few minutes. We're still heating the fryers.

Simon Lockwood (112:05)

Fish on a stick? That's odd. I start to ask if I could have one, but then I hear it.

Daphne (112:12)

Is that Simon Lockwood?

Simon Lockwood (112:15)

Someone whispers behind me.

Daphne (112:18)

Oh my God, it's Peter Jones.

Simon Lockwood (112:21)

That can't be Peter Jones. What's he doing here?

Daphne (112:24)

Didn't you know? His baby mama's from here.

Adriana Herrera (112:27)

Lana.

Daphne (112:27)

Lana Kent, remember? And her mom is fighting going into the memory unit at Shady Acres. Oh my God.

Adriana Herrera (112:34)

That's.

Daphne (112:35)

That's Simon Lockwood.

Simon Lockwood (112:37)

Pinky grabs me by the elbow and tugs. I nod to the ladies. Right then. Thank you for your time. Apologies once again. I smile at the crowd behind us while my man pulls harder. Good afternoon. Lovely to see you all. Enjoy your fish. Fish on a stick. This entire burger bus keeps getting more and more fascinating. I turn back to the whiskey window. How do you keep it on a stick? Duct tape, bea replies from deeper within the bus. At the same time, Daphne says, super glue. Is it not so flaky that it falls off the stick? They share yet one more look while my.