S08.05: Governesses with Louisa Darling

Summary

Fated Mates S08.05: Governesses with Louisa Darling (October 15, 2025)

Main Theme / Purpose

This episode of Fated Mates dives deep into the “governess” and “servant” tropes in historical romance, exploring how class, power, and the forbidden nature of these relationships shape the genre. Hosts Sarah MacLean and Jen Prokop welcome special guest Louisa Darling—author of the Dukes in Disguise historical romance series—to discuss classic governess books, subversive takes, and her own inspirations. The conversation ranges from old-school favorites to contemporary interpretations, interspersed with laughter, recommendations, and critical analysis.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Louisa Darling's Origin Story and Authorial Journey

• How Sarah & Louisa Became Friends: “When I decide I like somebody’s writing, I immediately stalk them into being my friend.” — Sarah [05:53]
• Louisa began her career as an editorial assistant working with major romance authors Nora Roberts and Jayne Ann Krentz, learning the ropes of the publishing industry and developing a love for editing.
• Transitioned from writing contemporary chef romances (as Louisa Edwards) to small-town stories (as Lily Everett), and now returns to her “very first love,” historical romance, as Louisa Darling.

“Louisa wrote chef books before it was cool. And they were so sexy...I was obsessed with these books.” — Sarah [06:16]

2. The Dukes in Disguise Series: Celebrating Classic Tropes with a Modern Eye

• Each book centers on the “Duke in Disguise” trope, featuring dukes assuming hidden identities:
  • Impoverished duke as bartender
  • Trauma-ridden duke as a bare-knuckle fighter
  • Amnesiac highwayman duke wearing many masks

"I was really interested in just the ideas around identity and the ways that people treat each other differently depending on what they expect to see, and the class differences that you can kind of...make permeable if one of the characters is pretending to be something else." — Louisa [19:37]

• The series is written for readers “of a certain vintage,” with loving nods to classic historicals, but with fresh plotting and pacing.

3. Deep Dive: “Where Have All the Scoundrels Gone?” (Dukes in Disguise #2)

• Focus on the hero, Ash—the tormented duke turned underground bare-knuckle boxer.

• The heroine Bess is a chaperone (a “woman servant” archetype), central to the governess trope's appeal.

• The opening chapter gets high praise: "This is the fucking greatest first chapter I’ve ever read." — Jen [28:38]

• Explores class and the seductive liminality of governesses and chaperones—women between “upstairs and downstairs,” both observing and disrupting power dynamics.

4. Why Are Governess/Servant Romances So Compelling?

• Enduring Appeal:
  • Built-in power and class dynamics, age differences, liminal social status.
  • Classic inspirations: Jane Eyre, Sound of Music, Mary Poppins.
  • Children involved add inherent complications and depth to the narrative.
• Challenges for Authors:
  • Balancing adult romance with child characters.
  • Navigating the potential pitfalls of class difference, consent, and realistic stakes.

“There’s something...about a character who swoops in, takes care of things, and understands. Kind of magical with the kids who are always in these stories.” — Louisa [40:13]

• Contemporary nanny romances echo these dynamics, but class difference and taboo are heightened in modern settings.

5. Exploring Class, Power, and Identity

• Romance novels often interrogate class, overtly or subtly.
• The governess/chaperone is a powerful lens to examine how the powerful can be “brought low” by love, and the “lowly” raised up by it.
• Tension between what “should” be (socially acceptable) and what is deeply desired.

“All romance is about power. And so, of course, class codes into that in an interesting way.” — Sarah [38:07]

• In disguise/secret identity books (e.g., Kate Noble’s “duke and his secretary” swap, Sophie Jordan’s Sins of a Wicked Duke), class and identity twists layer in emotional and social stakes.

6. Book Recommendations & Classic Examples

Historical Governess/Servant Romances

• Rules for a Proper Governess by Jennifer Ashley
  • Beloved for its class dynamics, unruly children, Mary Poppins-esque heroine.
  • “Let me show you that I actually have a whole other set of skills...” — Jen [50:00]
• A Duke, the Lady, and a Baby by Vanessa Riley
  • Intersection of class and race; Black heroine fights for her child, hired as a “wet nurse” in her former home. [53:08]
• The Duke Who Ravished Me by Diana Quincy
  • “Classic” rake confronted with children and their fiercely devoted governess.
• Deception by Amanda Quick
  • A bold, subversive 1993 favorite: heroine inherits unruly boys, competent hero takes the “parenting” role. Louisa’s “actual favorite.” [64:52]
• Shadow and the Star by Laura Kinsale
  • Victorian servant heroine, “class difference and deep stakes.”

Other Notables

• Snowed in with the Viking by Lucy Morris (Harlequin Historical)
  • Explores finding self-worth outside caregiving—“a really fun read.” — Jen [69:51]
• It Takes Two To Tumble by Cat Sebastian
  • Sound of Music-inspired M/M romance; vicar-hero acts as a de facto “governess.” [88:56]
• Loretta Chase’s Lord of Scoundrels
• Lisa Kleypas’s Married by Morning (companion/servant heroine)
• Numerous contemporary nanny romances (QB Tyler, Rebekah Weatherspoon’s Rafe), noted for their extra challenge in handling power dynamics and taboo.

7. Subversions/Servants-in-Disguise & Class Play

• Books where women masquerade as men or servants (e.g., Sophie Jordan, Elizabeth Hoyt)
• “Secret identities” and role-swapping as a tool for highlighting or disrupting class.

8. Children in Romance: A Trick and a Trope

• Kids can be plot complication, emotional focus, or simply comic relief.
• Balancing “mommy” energy and romance is tricky—most authors admit to “waving kids away” when romance heats up.

“To have a governess, you have to have children, but now you have to get rid of the children to have a good romance. So it’s a real...” — Jen [42:58]

9. Contemporary Twist

• Modern “nannies” reflect similar class/power issues, now with a heavy side of taboo.
• QB Tyler's nanny books are highly recommended for their “deeply sexy” take on the dynamic.

“Nanny romances: They’re always taboo. This is a work violation for sure...but I enjoy every one of them.” — Sarah [92:07]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On writing what you love:
  “When somebody starts writing historical for the first time and it’s like their id is just, like, all over the page. These are just things I’ve been thinking about since I was eleven and read my first romance novel.” — Louisa [24:10]

• On governesses as liminal observers:
  “She’s in this liminal, in-between space. She’s not really a part of the downstairs life... she doesn’t eat at the table with the master. She’s an interesting character who can move back and forth.” — Louisa [37:07]

• On class and romance:
  “The person who is of the lower class feels really grateful and wants to...there’s all this pressure and the stakes are so high. I don’t want to rock this boat or ruin this because...she could be tossed back out into the cold.” — Louisa [85:49]

• On the challenges of writing kids on page:
  “Kids are tricky. That’s why I don’t want them on page. I also feel this way about pets and books too. It’s fine if he has a dog, but I don’t need him to be there.” — Sarah [96:29]

• On author collaboration and inspiration:
  “This one [book] is dedicated to you, Sarah, who willed this book into existence. All my best stories are the ones you tell me to write.” — Louisa [29:15]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00-04:30 – Quick political call to action for Virginia elections (skip for core content)
• 04:35 – Introduction of Louisa Darling and origins of her writing career
• 17:23 – Louisa’s deep roots as a romance reader; "readers of a certain vintage"
• 18:47 – Introduction and overview of Dukes in Disguise series
• 27:11 – Transition: Why governing & servant archetypes fascinate us
• 33:32 – Discussion of “Where Have All the Scoundrels Gone?” and Ash as a bare-knuckle fighter
• 36:10 – The governess/chaperone archetype: power, class, liminality
• 41:32–51:53 – Discussion of how kids complicate, enrich, or burden romance narratives; best examples; the "class" conversation
• 55:09 – A Duke, the Lady, and a Baby (Vanessa Riley): race, class, and the wet-nurse plot
• 56:39 – The Duke Who Ravished Me (Diana Quincy): upending classic setups
• 64:52 – Louisa’s favorite: Deception by Amanda Quick
• 69:51 – Jen recommends Snowed in with the Viking by Lucy Morris
• 75:11 – Expansion into “servants in disguise” and old-school role-swapping plots
• 79:56 – Louisa’s first romance: The Shadow and the Star (Laura Kinsale)
• 88:04 – Cat Sebastian’s It Takes Two To Tumble—the Sound of Music, but gay
• 91:07 – Contemporary nannies & QB Tyler’s taboo approach
• 93:33 – Deception and the employer/employee power dynamic, inverted
• 94:14 & on – Laughing about pop culture buttons—Mystic Pizza and its impact on romance preference
• 98:00 – Where to find Louisa Darling's books, what’s next for her writing

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a lively, nerdy, and loving exploration of why governess and servant heroines endure in the romance genre—offering built-in conflict, rich class commentary, and opportunities for both angst and joy. Sarah, Jen, and Louisa provide a buffet of recommendations (both classic and new), analyze the nuts and bolts of the trope, and muse on personal favorites, all with wit and warmth. Essential listening for fans of historicals, those new to the genre, or anyone curious about what makes these archetypes timeless—and timely.

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For full book lists and more recommendations, check Fated Mates episode show notes at fatedmates.net.

Transcript

[A]

Hi everyone. Well, before we start this week's amazing episode with Louisa Darling, we just wanted to take a couple of minutes and talk about the state of Virginia.

[B]

Who would want to talk about the state of Virginia? Exactly.

[A]

As you all know, it is 2025 and it's getting weird out here to, you know, to use the euphemism, Sarah's.

[B]

Going with dramatic understatement. Fine. I appreciate it.

[A]

It's getting weird out here and we still have another. We can really tackle the midterm elections. But Virginia is very special. And the reason why Virginia is special is because they have an off year election cycle where right now all the state legislative seats in the state of Virginia are up for grabs. And the gubernatorial election is happening as well in Virginia. Now listen, Virginia is a blue state, but we need to keep it blue. And the way that we are thinking about doing that is working with the states Project, which many of you know we've been working with for a couple of election cycles. The way the state the States project works is they raise money for down ticket state level races. They support Democratic candidates across the board in states where we believe we can either flip a chamber of state legislative, a state legislative chamber, flip a gubernatorial seat, or hold those chambers for Democratic candidates. Listen, the truth is, is that this is the first big statewide referendum available to us for us to speak up, speak out and honestly crush the opposition in terms of making a strong referendum against the administration, the current administration, the devastating rules and just abuse of power that's taken over across the country. Virginia is our first line of defense. And we're working with the state's project to raise $5,000 in the next couple of weeks before election day to support down ticket candidates across the state and to not just hold the state legislature in Virginia, but also flip additional seats and really build ourselves a buffer because it's close there.

[B]

When you think like the laws that really impact your life, it's a lot of it is happening at the state level. You know, it's not as expensive as big national races. And so these are really important projects at this level. So, you know, just keep in mind the cool other thing about a giving circle is that it is a collective effort. Right? It's what we do together. And so like $5 or $10 or $25 is a great thing. It is. It doesn't have to be a big amount of money. It doesn't have to be an amount of money that is like, you know, make you stress out. It can be a really small amount of money. Like, right, like maybe you were going to treat yourself to a cup of coffee this, you know, this week, and instead you're going to treat yourself to, like, a little democracy. Just as an idea, I'll throw that out there.

[A]

Just as delicious and invigorating as a cup of coffee. If you want to learn more about our partnership with the States Project, you can go to fatedmates.net fadedstates and click on the States Project, which will take you to the faded States giving circle, where you can learn more about what we're doing in Virginia. But ultimately, you know, Melissa Walker was on the podcast a few months ago to talk about this, the work of the States Project. We'll put links for that in show notes. But truthfully, the issue is state legislators, they run the show. They're the reason why maps get gerrymandered, why abortion gets outlawed, why schools get defunded, why libraries ban books. Like, these are. These are state level laws that get passed by draconian legislatures and then they pass up and up and up through the courts, and then the Supreme Court rules on them. And here we are. So that's our story. If your podcasting app supports chapter titles, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken directly to our state's project funding. But again, we're looking to raise $5,000 in the next few weeks, and we're hoping you can help us do that.

[B]

Off to our episode with the amazing Louisa Darling.

[A]

This is very exciting because for, like five years, Eric has said, when is Luisa gonna be on the podcast? And it feels like it's important. Everyone, our guest today is Louisa Darling. And we'll get to why she's important to be on the podcast today and why we love her books and everything, but I feel like season one of Fated Mates. We invited Louisa to come on the podcast.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

Because there is a Kressley Immortals After Dark book that is dedicated to Luisa.

[B]

What? Okay. I feel like, See, it all comes.

[A]

What I'm saying is that time is a flat circle.

[C]

Well, you should have invited me because you read those books in the first place, because I begged you to. That's true.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

You are the prime mover. Really?

[C]

The podcast is because of me?

[A]

Here we are.

[B]

It took us.

[A]

It only took us eight seasons to get you on, but here we are.

[B]

I was actually. Point of order. I don't know if I know the story about how you two became friends. Like, right? Like, you meet people and they're like, oh, this is my friend Louisa. And you're like, yeah, sure, of course. But, like, what is the story? What is your origin story?

[A]

Well, as many people know about me, a thing. A thing you should know about me this far into the podcast is that when I decide I like somebody's writing, I then immediately stalk them into being my friend.

[B]

It is true. You do. You are a weirdo that way. I'm just like, that person's a good writer. I hope I never have to talk to them.

[A]

And I'm like, I gotta meet my heroes.

[C]

Mutual admiration society meetup.

[A]

Well, because Louisa was writing these, like, okay. Louisa wrote chef books before. It was cool. And they were so sexy. That whole series is so hot. And she wrote them under the name of Louisa Edwards. And I was obsessed with these books. They were set in New York City. I, like, still, there are places in New York City where I go and I'm like, that is the place. I am sure Luisa was writing about in that, you know, one hot chef book where he teaches her how to make an egg. Like, Jen's tapped out.

[B]

I'm like. I was literally like. For Jen, I was like, her body normally knows how to make an egg. Everybody. I don't know what the. What's.

[A]

Listen. So. Okay, well, first of all, welcome, everyone, to Fated Mates. I'm Sarah Maclean. I read romance novels and I write them.

[B]

I'm Jennifer Prokop, a romance reader and.

[A]

Editor, and we are today by one of my favorite writers and one of my favorite people, Louisa Darling.

[C]

Hello. It's my very first podcast ever.

[A]

Amazing.

[C]

We love that about you.

[B]

You're a podcast virgin. We are joking.

[C]

Podcast virgin.

[B]

I was like, don't worry, we'll be gentle.

[A]

So, Louisa, Luisa has written under. You've written, like, a bunch of different things.

[C]

Yeah, I've been writing for a while.

[A]

Yeah, we've been writing together for a long. I feel like we started writing right around the same time.

[C]

When did your first book come out?

[A]

2000. Well, my first romance came out. 2010.

[C]

My first was 2009. So we're really, like, okay, yeah, my.

[A]

Book came out in 2009. And honestly, I feel like the way that I found you was I tweeted at you.

[C]

That must not be true. But we ended up exist.

[B]

I don't even know.

[A]

It was early days and, like, Luisa and I both have, like, partners who are, like, very tech. Like, early adopters.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

We ended up at Bea together, or I was in town for Bea, and.

[A]

We got together for lunch at Cookshop.

[C]

And it was the beginning of a beautiful.

[A]

Have Lunch.

[C]

A beautiful friendship. It was great.

[A]

Exactly. And now we're like friends. We travel together, we go places, we read each other's manuscripts. And now she's on the podcast. Now here I am. Because she has new books, so.

[B]

Okay, actually, wait, before you say that, here's what everybody should know. And this is. I edit Louisa, but Louisa edits Sarah.

[A]

Right. Jen's not allowed to read my books.

[B]

Yeah. The relationship people assume that Sarah and I have about her manuscripts is the one, actually, that Louisa and Sarah have.

[A]

It's interesting. Cause Jen, Everybody. Jen knows nothing about what I'm writing about ever, until the book is done, pretty much.

[C]

You don't even, like, talk. You don't even, like, talk and brainstorm and do the whole. Oh, wow, I didn't know.

[A]

Luisa, I have one person I talk to. It's you. Okay, well, so protect yourself, because I'm fucked if anything happens to you.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I. So I just think that is really interesting because I think a lot of people think that, you know, that you and I talk, and I'm like, no, no, that's Louisa's job. Sarah and I have a different relationship.

[A]

Exactly.

[C]

Well, I started out. It started out an editorial before I started writing my own books, so.

[B]

Oh, I don't think.

[A]

Are you allowed to talk about what you did? Because I feel like everybody would be very excited about knowing.

[C]

Oh, sure. Yes. It's not a secret. I was. I was Leslie Geldman's assistant at Berkeley, and she was the head of the Berkeley Publishing Group, and she was also both Nora Roberts and Janae and Krentz's editor. So I got to work with them a lot, which was obviously phenomenal for, like, baby, just out of college.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I learned a ton from them, and I love to keep my hand in with the editing, so I'm always very excited to get any. Anything from Sarah.

[B]

I feel, honestly, even crazier now that you let me edit for you. You're like a real professional. What? Like what?

[C]

I will say that was a long time ago. Now people are like, oh, what was it like to work in publishing? And I'm like, well, it was like. Like, that was the dark ages. It was so long ago. I have no idea what it's like anymore.

[B]

You're like, we still got manuscript in boxes, like Kathleen Turner sending, Right?

[C]

Yeah, I literally stopped. I stopped editing because at the time when we moved away from New York in whatever it was, 2005, you couldn't be an editor if you didn't live in New York, like, It wasn't possible. Right, sure. So, you know, that's not the case anymore. But.

[A]

Yeah, but Louisa can confirm, and this is not saying anything about Nora, but she can confirm that Jane Ann Krentz is amazing.

[C]

Yes, Jane Ann Krantz is really wonderful. One of her books is dedicated to me too. What? I love coming up with titles and I came up with the title for one of her books, so. But she was incredibly kind and very appreciative of the assistance, which not every, not every big, huge, best selling author is. Nora also was always very, very kind and wonderful.

[A]

Everybody, if you're out there and you're a writer, you're an author and your editor has an assistant. Remember them at holidays, send that assistant.

[C]

A tiny little gift and they will bend over backwards for you forever.

[A]

When they get promoted, send them a thing. When you have a book out, make sure you send them a note and. And honor them. Put them in your acknowledgments. What the hell is wrong with everybody?

[C]

Editorial assistants get paid absolutely nothing. I had a friend who was an editorial assistant who, like, lived on ketchup packets and sugar packets from Starbucks for the first year in New York. Like, it's my gosh, terrible how little assistance get paid. And they do a lot of work.

[A]

A ton of work.

[C]

A ton of work behind the scenes for very little.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Exactly.

[C]

Acknowledgement. Although not in my case, I have to say, my boss, my direct boss, was very mentoring and acknowledging. I was very lucky.

[B]

Wow. See, now I feel like I am so happy I know that story. I have really. I mean, I guess I had bits and pieces of it, but now I'm all like, oh, you just loved her writing and made friends with her. That's how Sarah is.

[A]

I mean, how else do I make friends?

[C]

But it's classic Sarah.

[B]

If you want to lay a trap for Sarah, now, you all know, put some good writing inside of a bear claw and like, boom, like one of those bear traps and she's caught for life. She can't fight her way out. She has no idea how to do it. You'll just end up on the podcast eventually.

[A]

Louisa Edwards wrote these very sexy chef romances. And then Lily Everett wrote these sort of like small town horse romances. They're not horse romances.

[C]

It was set on an island where there were wild horses. So, yes, it was sort of. They were sort of like, for the little girl who loved, like, Misty of Chincoteague all grown up.

[A]

There you go. But no horse sex in there. Like the nobody does it on A horse in those.

[C]

No, they weren't. They weren't that sexy. And they. They were very.

[A]

They were accurate. More accurate than.

[B]

It was not romance. Horse. It was horse. Horse.

[A]

Okay, fair. But they were. They were sexy. But there was no sex on horseback, which, you know, I think I proposed several times.

[C]

There probably was at least one scene on horseback. I don't. I can't remember now. It's been a long time.

[A]

Right.

[C]

There has to have.

[B]

Anyway.

[A]

And then. And now.

[C]

Yeah, then I took a break. I had a baby. Took a break. And now I'm back. I have writing my very first love.

[A]

Which is historical Louisa Darling, writing a banger of a historical series. That is terrific. And literally, I'm so proud of it because every time. I'm so proud of myself because every time I get on Instagram as either Faded Mates or Sarah, I have some DM that's like, I just read the Louisa Darling books because of you guys.

[C]

Yes, thanks for that.

[A]

And they're great. And I'm like, aren't they great? No, it's. But it's so awesome to be able to recommend a brand new historical name because, as you know, historical is kind of sleepy right now and there aren't a whole lot of new, new names in the genre. So it's nice to be able to say Louisa Darling. And then my favorite is when you say, oh, she also wrote these like, hot samples sex hot, like sexy chef books back in the day. And people are like, louisa Darling is Louisa Edwards.

[B]

What?

[A]

And it's really fun.

[B]

You know, just the other day on the Discord, someone was asking, so your audiobooks are by the amazing Mary Jane Wells? And they were like, do you think that she's gonna do the third book in audio? I'm like, I'm sure. But you know, they were like, do you have any idea when. And I was like, I don't know, but I can ask. And then I was like, I can literally ask, like right now.

[C]

I can say the third one has been recorded. I've listened to it. It's perfect and amazing and I'm just waiting for the final mastered files. Hopefully. I was promised early this week, which is the early October, so should. By the time. By the time this goes up, probably it will be out there.

[B]

But.

[A]

This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by HarperCollins, publishers of Lindsay Kelk's Christmas Fling.

[B]

So Laura is studying to be her own neurosurgeon and she is really looking forward to a quiet Christmas on her own. Her a bottle of wine and flat sitting for a stranger. Only when she shows up at this flat that she has arranged to rent for the holidays, she finds a very handsome and very scantily clad Scottish lad. Okay, he's a grown man, everybody. And his name is Callum and he's super hot. Now here's the thing. This is all awkward and hilarious as only Lindsay Kelk can probably write it. But what happens next is that Callum's parents show up and assum that Laura must be his girlfriend and essentially she had swept away on a sleeper car to the whole family's vacation in the Scottish Highlands.

[A]

This is my dream Christmas.

[B]

Well, even now it's gonna be snowy and cozy. There's gonna be charming pubs and breathtaking views. And also she and Callum have some very serious and intense chemistry. And look, she's studying to be a doctor. She knows chem. So when this no strings. So she's like, maybe this can be the perfect no strings attached holiday fling of my dreams. But of course holiday fling is going to turn into holiday feelings. And then what's going to happen?

[A]

Well, if you also love holiday feelings with hot Scots in the Highlands after sleeper train rides, you can read Lindsay's Christmas Fling right now in print, ebook or audiobook if your podcasting app supports it. You can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to HarperCollins and to Lindsay Kelk for sponsoring this week's episode. One of the things, Jen, that I'm not sure you know about Louisa is that like she is an old school romance reader, like has been reading as long as we have been reading.

[B]

I think you could tell if you.

[A]

Read these books, right?

[B]

I was like, all of the things that I love best are like, right, like boom, right in it.

[C]

Yes, we're readers of a certain vintage here in this, in this podcast episode.

[B]

That's a nice way of saying it, right? Like we're, we're. You pull that bottle off the shelf and it's like perfectly aged, engaged to perfection. Listen, I'm not the only one who thinks this way, right? Like everything in romance comes around again just like fashion. And I think there's just so many ways in which like the, like the things that we loved in romance, like get repurposed. They get, you know, I think what, really sometimes I think one of the biggest difference isn't the books themselves necessarily, but like the way that we talk about them. And I, you know, I think a lot about, you know, the trope ofication as like a shorthand of Talking about romance is, you know, that's something that I think is different. But the books themselves, like, what's in them, the kinds of things that appeal to readers. I think a lot of that is the same. It's just that we wouldn't sort of like, have like a shorthand of like, you know, these five things and then kind of people feel like, okay, yes, I'm here interested in that or not. So in that sense, I, you know, that's what's so great about romance. It's still like a classic is always a classic look, right? Yeah.

[A]

So the new series, Dukes in Disguise. Perfect. You've written a novella and then you got down to business and you wrote these three, like, Duke in Disguise books, which is a trope that I feel like really encompasses a deep love of historicals. Like, you have, like, people who have read historicals and loved historicals, know that, like, the Duke in Disguise is like a classic. And so in each of these books, the duke in question is in fact masquerading as someone else or as something else. And so can you talk about the series in general and then we'll get into each of the books.

[C]

I was really interested in just the ideas around identity and the ways that people treat each other differently depending on what they expect to see, and the class differences that you can kind of the class barriers that you can make permeable if one of the characters is pretending to be something else else. So I wanted to play with that in sort of three different ways. And so I have one who is a sort of impoverished duke who is pretending to be a bartender so that no one will know that he's the fortune hunting heroine, will not know that he's a duke and will leave him alone. I have one who is so tormented inside that he has to dress up as a bear, put a mask on and fight, bite his knuckles bloody every night, because he's just. That's the only way he can, I don't know, express baby his trauma of being a duke. And then the third one is, of course, I had to do a Highwayman because it's just such a cool thing.

[B]

I had to do it.

[C]

I just had to. But then in the Highway 1 1, I really wanted to turn it on its head a little bit. And so he also has amnesia, but he's not only. He wears a variety of different masks in different ways.

[A]

We've talked about that book several times on the podcast, and every time I refer to it as boom. Amnesia.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Halfway through the book, half, midway point, Boom. Amnesia.

[B]

Sarah is. I know that's not really, like, the topic of discussion, that one today, but, like, Sarah the other day was. It on last week's episode was like, you really only get one amnesia story in your writing career? And I was like, that does seem true.

[C]

You cannot go back to that well that often. Like, it's. It's kind of a one and done.

[B]

Like, I did it. I got it.

[C]

You don't want to become known as the. As the amnesia author.

[A]

No, but it's so funny because I feel like you. I read that book. So, okay, we're not here to talk about Boom, Amnesia, but let's get into it. So I read that book with, like, pure, like, I should say everybody. Not just because she's my friend, but because the books are so clearly written out of, like, a deep, abiding love for historical romance. When I read a Louisa Darling book, I, like, kick my feet with joy, like, there. It's just so delightful. And, you know, the best thing about that book is, I mean, there are lots of great things about a highwayman Duke, and who gets accidental amnesia. Although I suppose all amnesia is accidental. But one of the best things about that book is that sort of deep into it, when he has amnesia, she has fallen. The heroine has fallen in love with the highwayman, the duke, and now this, like, third person who is like, both Duke and highwayman, but doesn't remember any of it. So he's, like, distilled to his purest, like, man form. And it is honestly so fun. And I think I'm not that I'm a simple person, I think, because it took me being clubbed over the head with, oh, my God, she's falling in love with, like, who he really is. Now to realize that that's what, like, all amnesia books should be like. You're falling in love with the person they really am. It's very sort of gorilla twins coded, where, like, he comes home and he goes to his own funeral, right?

[B]

And he's like, oh, shit.

[A]

This is what everybody actually thought about me. Like, and here we are. So I feel like I learn something every time I read a Louisa Darling book.

[C]

Well, that's very kind, but I want.

[A]

To talk about the pink one, which.

[B]

Is where have all the Scoundrels Gone?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know what I would say, Like, I want to add something to that before we go to the second book, which is, I think, a really common fear of, like, a reader. It's like, well, I really like this author's books. And so now I'm going to read another book, and, you know, I'm going to be reading the same book every time. And I think, like, in this book, like, that whoa moment happens in the middle where you, like, you kind of think you know what's gonna happen and then spoob. Amnesia. And in the first book, it opens and it's like, unreal. Like, you're just like, yeah. And then goes backwards. And so I think, like, the other thing I want to say about these books is even, like, the plotting and the pacing of each book is really different. And I think that's what also makes it really fun to read. It's not like one of these stories is the same story when I first.

[C]

Started sort of pitching them to the, you know, to the. The group chat about what. What these books are going to be like. Sarah, one of the things Sarah said was like, God, I love when somebody starts writing historical for the first time. And it's like their ID is just, like, all over the page. It's just everywhere, just spilling out. And it's true. It's like, these are just. These are just things that I've been thinking about for. Since I was 11 years old and read my first romance novel, which was, of course, historical romance, of course. And, like, it's. They're just. They're so much fun. And, like, I just knew that I wanted to do the amnesia book, and I was really scared to do it. I was like, oh, my gosh, it's going to be so complicated. And how, like, am I going to really make it work? And it just was. But I just felt like I had to because it was. It's there. If it's like, right there to be done, you have to do it. You have to at least try. And then I thought, well, it's okay. Jen will tell me if it sucks. She'll say, like, this didn't work at all. He can't lose his memory. Yeah, luckily she didn't say that. So that's why.

[B]

You can, like, use a plot like that to get characters into trouble. You can't just use it to get them out of trouble. Right, Right. And so at this moment, you're kind of like, how are. Is anything going to work out between these two? Right. I mean, like, there really is this feeling of. And in some ways, like, this book has a lot of movements, which I also feel like is unusual. Right. Like, because they have. They were young. She was too young to. To kind of be the heroine. It. It's really smart the way it like allows for like a literal second chance. But you know, boom amnesia can only happen at certain points of the book. I think. So.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Boom amnesia is actually called Scoundrel Take Me Away. Which audiobook. You should change that on on Amazon. It should be like Scoundrel, Take me away Colon A boom amnesia book.

[C]

Maybe I'll just take, I'll just take your cover quote off and just replace it with boom.

[B]

Am I mean we renamed Gorilla Twins?

[A]

Yeah, I know. I feel so bad about the Gorilla.

[C]

Twins, thinking, please, does she know? Does she know?

[A]

Yeah, she does. But what's crazy is it comes up like more, I mean, surprising. No one. Gorilla Twins comes up a lot when I'm on panels and, and that, and I can never remember the name of it and somebody always has to shout it out.

[C]

I mean that's the problem with the Earl. Takes all writing anything at this point. But like all, all romance novel names can kind of run together. It's very hard to come up with something that hasn't been done before or doesn't sound like something that's been done before. So.

[A]

But now that Amazon is posting all these like miles long, like, you know, all the publishers are like, you know, I don't know. Scoundrel, Take me away, colon, you know, right.

[C]

A 30 something friends to lovers werewolf.

[B]

That will delight and astound you in 2025. Exactly.

[A]

It feels like they could change the title Gorilla Twins and be like Colon Gorilla Twins. This is the Gorilla Twins book.

[C]

This is it.

[B]

This is the one.

[C]

That's the one that you've been looking for.

[B]

Colon Gorilla Twins.

[A]

Anyway, but let's.

[B]

So then. And wait, you know what we should say our next read along is Gorilla Twins, everybody. So just if you haven't read it.

[C]

Oh my gosh, come on. Is there anybody who hasn't read it at this point?

[B]

There's always someone elite adopter. Because it was in my breaking case of emergency and then, you know, she.

[A]

Had it in the vault.

[B]

I, I unvaulted it.

[A]

Okay, but we're here actually to talk about, well, we're here to talk about, we're here to talk about governesses and servants, everybody. And we're going to get into like the serious, like a serious discussion of what all that is. But first we want to talk about where have all the scoundrels gone? Which is Dukes in disguise number two. And the reason why we do is because I love the Duke of Ashbourne a whole lot because he's a bare.

[B]

Knuckle fighter with a tortured soul.

[A]

Tortured Soul and a of gold.

[B]

I would rather get the shit beat out of me every night than have.

[A]

Feelings, than feel one single feeling.

[B]

But then I felt them anyway. Now I can beat myself up even more.

[A]

Okay, I will say this. You know how Jen said, like, people don't understand that, like, she doesn't know anything about my books until, like, until they're done. I don't know anything about Jen's editorial work either. Like, we do not discuss her editorial work at all. And I will say, though, I had read this manuscript before she got it, and I said to her, you have to text me, like, at the end of the first chapter. And she texted me at the end.

[B]

Of the first chapter.

[A]

She was like, this is the fucking greatest first chapter I've ever read. And I was like, yes, I know. Because this book begins with our just poor, sad, tortured baby Duke. I mean, who's kind of the villain.

[C]

Of the first book.

[A]

Misunderstood. The big villain of the first book.

[C]

But like, jump. It's just so sad. He's so bad boy Duke.

[A]

He's a bare knuckle fighter in an underground boxing ring. I mean, so already, like, this is. Let's sit down and just write a book directly to Sarah's Inn.

[C]

Well, in fact, and speaking of books being dedicated to people, this one is dedicated to you. You, for Sarah, who willed this book into existence. All my best stories are the ones you tell me to write, which is basically because you told. You were like, oh, here's what needs to happen next. Oh, and this should happen. So I was like, really? You should have a co authoring credit on this one.

[A]

Yeah, if I could just get a job doing that. Like telling certain writers what I want them to specifically write is the best job. And then, and then at the end, I get to read a book that's basically made for you.

[C]

Yes. Like Heartbreaker, where I was like, if there is not a moment where her hair is whipping in the breeze and it's all red and tumbling around her shoulders and he goes insane, I'm throwing this book across the wall, across the room.

[A]

There it is, everyone. Heartbreaker. It happened by Sarah MacLaine.

[C]

The greatest job.

[A]

Listen, this is the best thing about having writer friends.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Katherine Grant, author of the Widower Without a Will.

[B]

So this is the eighth book in the Preston series. So a lot of people are like, I mean, I love a final book in a series. We've all been waiting for Lord Martin Preston to finally fall in love. Right. But of course. Is he looking for love, Sarah?

[A]

He is not. No, absolutely not. That's for seven other people.

[B]

All he wants is to secure his legacy as a progressive baron and a caring father. But the rector, essentially, widow, right, needs a place to stay, and he doesn't think twice like, of course she can stay in Northfield Hall. This is not, you know, she's of a different class. This is, like, no threat to him. So Martha Bellamy lives in the shadows. For a decade, she has really been under a cloud of scandal surrounding her son's death. And now that her husband has died, she just feels like she has just been pulled further and further into the darkness. But she is really enchanted by Lord Preston, and so she volunteers to be his private secretary, and she hopes to be his private friend. Now, Martin didn't even realize that he was craving a confidant like Martha. So they share more and more of their hearts with each other, but he really has to be constantly reminding himself she is a poor widow in his care, not a woman he can love. She is not for him. But when tragedy strikes, will Martin find himself either turning his back on her to, like, kind of of claim all he's worked for or decide that, you know, she actually is more important to him than all the things he thought he cared so much about?

[A]

Well, if you love a widow and a silver fox in a Regency will, there won't they, we shouldn't fall in love. Romance. Then this is the book for you. The Widower Without a Will comes out this Friday, October 17th, and you can read it in print, print, or ebook if your podcasting app supports it. You can click on the chapter title right now to preorder the book. Thanks so much to Katherine Grant for sponsoring this week's episode. Okay, so we have to talk about my sweet baby Ash. So the. So he is in this underground boxing ring because he's been tortured, because he has a terrible. He had a terrible time with his father. It's classic. This is just romance science. And so he takes himself off every single night to fight. And the rules of this particular underground fighting ring are that, like, ladies can come and they can watch. And at the end, the winner of the fight gets to select a woman from the crowd as his prize. Consensually, she has to agree. It's all. It's the ring. The club is run by a woman who's terrific, and he gets there. And here's the thing, though. This guy has never selected anyone because he's not in it for the ladies. Gen. No, he's in it just to, like, feel something in his pain.

[C]

For the pain.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was like, yeah, feel one thing to make all the other feelings go away.

[A]

He doesn't deserve a woman. Deserve a soft touch after this. He deserves a little monster.

[B]

Wait, what's his nickname again?

[C]

The Berserker.

[B]

The Berserker.

[A]

I like the Beast.

[B]

Something. No, it's more Berserker.

[A]

So good. But then one night, Bess arrives at the club. She. Bess is just a woman who has come. She was a hook in the first book off in the Country. She's come to London as a chaperone for the younger sisters of the Duke of Ashborne, or the younger sister of the Duke of Ashborne. And she is there and has a taste for adventure. Like, she's like, I'm gonna go and I'm gonna do this, like, kind of wild thing. I'm gonna go to this fight ring, this. This club, and watch this, like, Berserker. Be Berserkery. And. But that's. But I'm just gonna go and then I'm gonna come back. And he fights and he wins. And here he is, he looks over the crowd, and for the first time ever, he points at Bess and he says, that one. That's my prize. And we're all like, yes.

[C]

And then I told the horrible trick of four weeks earlier or what, right?

[B]

I was like, what is this, some sort of crappy action movie?

[C]

Yeah, sorry about that.

[B]

And you know, it is an interesting question, like, the question of, like, where the story starts. And sometimes, like, that is where the story starts. And if it was just like, kind of like exposition, you'd all. Everybody really bored. Right? So I do like. I do think there are times when, like, that story sort of like sleight of hand with the plotting or the timeline really, like, Right. Like, everybody knows you gotta start the book with the big hook and there it is.

[A]

That's right. It was terrific. It's a terrific beginning. But what's interesting about this book and the reason why we're here today is because we talked about how, like, when you write a historical, as when you write your first historical, you, like, really tap the id. And so. And I know because we're friends, that, like, governess, chaperone, kind of this. This, like, woman servant kind of structure is something that you are really into. You love a chaperone, you love a governess.

[C]

I do. I really do.

[A]

So can you talk about why these books work? Because this is a real historical structure, like a Historical character, the governess, the, the, the chaperone from.

[C]

Well, the family lore is that I read Jane Eyre when I was 8 years old and now that I have an 8 year old, I don't know that that can possibly be true or if it is, I don't think I could have understood much of it. For sure. It like I imprinted hard on it like a baby duckling. Like I like really, really imprinted hard on that governess storyline. And I think there are a lot of things that I, that I really enjoy about that kind of conflict. There's so much inherent conflict of the, like the power between them. There's often an age difference. There's not a huge one in this book but, but often there's. There's an age difference.

[A]

When we were young those books were like she was 18 and Jane is.

[C]

Like, you know, a baby and he's this like old man with a wife in the attic. But the. There, there's something, I think that like there's. The class difference is not always there. Like sometimes the governess is a really, you know, just sort of down on her luck, impoverished noble woman of the same kind of class as the, as the man. But the power differential is always there because she, there's some reason why she has to be doing this work that is not, you know, not necessarily even the most respectable. And she's. I think it's always been so interesting to me to have a character who's kind of caught between the upstairs and the downstairs. She's not really a part of the downstairs life of the house either. She doesn't like eat in the kitchen with the servants and she doesn't eat at the table with the, the master, whatever you want to call him. And so she's kind of, she's in this like liminal, in between space that I think is. Makes her often a really good observer of, of everything that's going on around her and, and makes her an interesting, just an interesting character who can kind of move back and forth a little bit.

[A]

It's interesting because one of the things I actually asked the discord this, this morning because I, some number of weeks ago I saw, I think a Instagram video went, went by and I could swear it was Tressie McMillum Cotton talking about it, who is brilliant in all things and also clearly a romance reader and she was. And I don't. But I looked on her page today and I couldn't find it. So I'm not sure it was her, but it feels like it might have been her where somebody was actually talking about how romance novels are actually all about Claire class. And like, whether or not the class structure is overt on the page. There is this kind of class conversation that was. That's going on in all romances. And I think this is like, this is a really interesting question for me. I do believe that all romance is about power. And so of course class, like, codes into that in an interesting way. But I agree. I think, for me, I think the appeal here is like a deeply powerful man, like he. Like a hero who has immense power, immense wealth, like having. Being brought low by somebody who does not have those things. Right. Like, that's a classic romance trope. And it's easily structured in this way for me, I think. I think there has to be some Sound of Music, like, inspiration in these books. Yeah, we're always interested in, like, what are the things, like the pop culture things that were inspiring these books when they were written in like, the 70s, 80s, you know, you and I today texted a bunch about, you know, early governess books because there are so many. And I think you're right. The Jane Eyre is part of it. But, like, Sound of Music has to be in there.

[C]

Sound of Music, Mary Poppins, like, who the. There's. There's a real fantasy element too about, like, a character who kind of swoops in and. And takes care of things and like, understands.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Kind of magical with the kids who are always, always in all of these. I've read a. I'm actually thinking about noodling about writing a more direct, like, governance, actual governess romance. And so I've read a whole bunch of them now. And it's always like, really unruly children who have. Who really need some kind of like, firm hand or be taken. Taken in hand in some kind of way. And the, like, the magic of that, like, person who swoops in and like, sees them and understands them in a way that their parent does not or cannot or their. Their, you know, what's the. Their guardian or whoever it is. I think that's really powerful too because, like, you can't. When you have the governess thing, you can't really separate it from the fact that there's like, usually kids. There's kids in this book. Like, there are a lot of kids in these books, which I know it's not for everyone. And it's like, it's literally. It's one of the things that I'm kind of like, struggling with thinking about how to write this book. It's like, I don't want to write, like, a full on, like, mommy romance. I'm like, I'm. I do that all day, every day. Like, I don't need to. I don't need to put that in my romance novel. But there is, I think there. It's an inescapable part of the government plot that you have. What's interesting to me always about Jane Eyre is how little of the child there is in Jane Eyre.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And, like, she's not. She's not appealing in any way as a child. Like, Jane doesn't really have any kind of special connection to her or care that much about her. Nobody ends up ever, like, sort of coming to realize, like, oh, it's so important that we all become a family. Like, there's no.

[A]

Because Bronte was like, who cares about this? Who cares about this? She's a plot device.

[C]

Put her with the drawing instructor. They can go off.

[A]

And I mean, I think that that is. That is a real piece of this puzzle. Like, child as plot device is. I mean, that is an. It is a problem in these books. Like, you have to. She is a pro. The child is a problem you have to deal with. Yeah. And. And I do think most like of the greats of these books, like, do kind of wave away that kid. That kid is not around a ton.

[B]

I listen, this is not a governess book, but I will never forget it was like, something with, like, Molly o', Keefe, and she was talking about, like, a book of mine I really love, which is called. Wait for It.

[A]

Which we did a deep dive on.

[B]

Yeah, right. But like. And so I. Maybe I've told the story, but, like, she was just basically like, Yeah. I don't know. Like, they just have to have sex in the limousine a lot.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

Like, she's like. I don't really know exactly. Like, I just basically need to put like, a bedroom on wheels for these two adults because the kids are a problem. Problem.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And as. And in this case, it was like the, you know, the woman's kids or whatever. Well, it's just, like, really funny. Yeah.

[A]

In that particular book, she's not wealthy enough to have a governess. Like.

[B]

No, no, but I mean, like. But to the. Like, what are you gonna do with these? You know, to have a governess, you have to have children, but now you have to get rid of the children to have a good romance. So it's like a real.

[C]

I mean, even in this chaperone romance, they were. I kept sort of having to be like, oh, right, she's like, there to do a job. She has to act to like, you know, interact with this girl that she's chaperoning. And like, you, Jen, you really, like, made me like, I really think it's important for the hero to like, you know, have a relationship that evolves with his sister. Like, oh, fine. You're like, I guess I'll write them a scene.

[A]

No one cares.

[B]

If this is the connective tissue of this series, then you have to address her.

[C]

Yeah, you really have to. You, you can't, you can't just leave them out entirely. And I think the people who do do some of my favorites that do a great job are they managed to not like just sort of sprinkle in the scenes in a way that really with the kids in a way that really highlights the different relationships and the ways that the sort of the family unit is evolving.

[B]

This week's episode of Fated Mates is brought to you by Andi J. Christopher, author of Faster.

[A]

Anybody who follows Andy online knows that she is a huge F1 fan. And if you are a huge F1 fan, you are going to love Faster. It is really like, made for the girlies who love Drive to Survive.

[B]

So if the.

[A]

But the cool thing about this book is that it's not just one romance. It's actually three separate romances that are interconnected. The whole book tells this is set over the course of one season of F1 driving. So you're traveling the world with these drivers in these kind of like high stakes situations. Like, it's all sort of very exciting and who's going to win. The first group is a throuple. I mean, essentially it's a woman who discovers that her F1 driver husband is cheating on her and then as revenge, like throws herself into the arms of another F1 driver who is his, you know, arch enemy, like, competitor who's also the one that got away for her. And the, the husband won't let her go. And so like there's a MMF situation that goes on and then there's another one who's like a female driver on the circuit and she's falling for like the daddy team manager. It's pretty hot.

[B]

You're going to love that if you.

[A]

Love an age gap romance or if you love Toto, the Mercedes team principal on Drive to Survive. And then the third one is a press officer and like a hot shot playboy driver. And they're like at each other's throats but like desperate to get each other into bed. It's all super sexy. It's a little bit like Jackie Collins vibes with this kind of deep, sexy, big romance. And if you love any of those things, you're going to love this book.

[B]

I think you're all going to love this book because it is going to be super hot, super sexy and super fast. Just like an F1 race. So if you are interested in checking it out, you can click on the chapter title right now to buy the book if your podcasting app supports it. And if not, just check it out using our show show notes. Thanks to Andy J. Christopher for sponsoring this week's episode.

[A]

Tell us somebody who you think really does kids right in this scenario.

[C]

So one of my very favorite governess romances that's also really a good example of the class difference thing is Rules for a Proper Governess by Jennifer Ashley.

[B]

Ooh. That was on my list, too.

[C]

It is. I think it's one of my absolute favorite of that whole series. And it's a great series. The whole series is really good. But I love that one. The Scottish barrister hero who has lost his wife, but had a wonderful relationship with the wife and, like, truly loved her and is. But it's now kind of like really lost. Especially as a parent. Like, as a. As a man also, of course. But like, as a parent, he's really, like, he loves his kids, but he doesn't really know how to connect to them and he has a hard time dealing with them. They are, of course, unruly as a. As. As all of these children who need governesses are.

[B]

I really keep thinking about the, like, Sound of Music of that. All right.

[A]

Like in the bed trip.

[B]

Right. I'm just, I'm just a hapless man who doesn't know how to control these kids. And it's not my job to know.

[C]

Yeah, I'm. I'm probably too strict and therefore I'm like, crushing the spirit of one and, like, totally unable to reach the other. And like, you know that this in Rules for Proper Governance, Birdie comes along and she is like, she's a pickpocket. She's a, like, little con artist thief. And she is really fascinated by him and the work that he does. And so she kind of. She, like, lightly stalks him and just ends up being on hand to help when the children run away, which is a big trope of these books and almost all of the ones that I read. At some point, the children or one of the children runs away and has to be. And that is like a big Part of the crisis of everything coming back together. People being like, oh, crap, we actually. We forgot about the kids. We had to go find them.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I reread this this morning. Or I, like, reread the beginning and I, like, fell right into it, which is, like, the best feeling for, like, preparation. Basically. It's like, you know, they are getting a governess fired every week. And the older one, who I think is Andrew, essentially is, like, takes off and like, climbs the scaffolding and, like, the sister goes after him to, like, keep him safe. And, you know, the smelly governess, like, literally, she smells like cod liver oil, is, like, down yelling at them and being.

[C]

Aw.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And Birdie's own, you know, she's in her mid-20s, but, like, her father keeps her at home to basically be, like, his servant. And so the opportunity to be the governess to these unruly kids is also, like, freedom for her.

[C]

Well, and they're also like, you know, she's seen and dealt with a lot worse than two kind of like one slightly naughty child and one kid, one little girl is kind of not catatonic, but she's a little disassociated from things. And yeah, she's. And she just. She just gets right in there. I just love. I love Birdie. She's this, like, impulsive, really cheerful character. She's. I think some people dislike the character that comes in and sort of always knows what to do in that, like, Mary Poppins kind of way. But I find it really, really charming. And. And I loved. I just loved the way she was written. I thought that she was great.

[A]

Well, and it's probably particularly charming when. When foiled with a, like, rigid hero who doesn't either, who shows no interest, like Allah Dane. Right. I mean, that's not a governess book, but Lord of Scoundrels, right? Like, that kid is like, nowhere or, you know, has inherited these kids and, like, doesn't know what to do with them or, you know, has actively is, like, broken by the loss of parent, the loss of siblings, or however these kids kind of like, land in his lap.

[B]

I think one of the things I liked about or, like, I remember feeling is like, the. The assumption of, like, this upper class wealthy man is that, like, this woman, because she's staff, is. Is, you know, not as smart, not as capable, like, whatever, right? Like, he's like, you know, the master of the universe, literally. And I think, like, one of the things that always ends up being a big part of these books for me that I like is let me show you that I actually have a whole other set of skills that you have never even dreamed could exist that you.

[C]

Actually, you actually really, really need that are like essential to you.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

That I'm going to make your life better. And that, that is like a big part of the like H ea then is him realizing, right. Like of course he loved his children, he's not indifferent to them, but he just is kind of like I just hire governesses one after the other and one will stick eventually, but it's, you know, that's the part. It's like this. She's going to make him a family again in a different way.

[C]

And she's in that book. She's very, very aware of their, the class differences. The end of the. Do we spoil on here? Do we say we just go ahead and talk about. I mean this book has been out for a really long time.

[B]

People can like that.

[C]

But it's the end of the book. Always makes me cry because she has this, she's this irrepressible, very happy, like sort of determinedly happy character. She's determined to not be crushed by, oh, you know, an abusive father in this like kind of dead end life that she, that she grew up in. And like she, at the end, end, she just, all she asks is like to stay with him. She's like, I'll just, I'll do anything. I'll be the governess, I'll be the, I'll be, I'll work in the scullery, I'll do whatever. And he's. And like it's heartbreaking. And then the moment when he's, when he's like, you'll be my wife or nothing at all. Like he's still.

[B]

He was like, so great.

[C]

It's, it's everything, it's just so, it's so satisfying.

[A]

Yeah. There's, I mean that's the whole, that's the other piece of it, right? Like, like that's the servant piece of it. That's really, I mean that's like it's Cinderella. Right. It's like the idea that you might be like elevated into the main house. Like you might be somebody who a character loves so much that he's willing to like turn his back on all the rules. Like all of the social. Everything that has been structured and that's.

[C]

A real shift in power. Right? Like that character who started out with no power in the situation becomes the character who is sort of calling the shots is like the one that is able to be elevated being Elevated, I guess sounds bad somehow, but they've forced the other character to just disregard all of the society societal strictures that they thought were so important. And now they.

[A]

They.

[C]

All they care about is this character. That's great.

[A]

Jen, do you have a favorite? I have some.

[B]

I don't know if I would. I. I want to talk about one. I don't know. I'm not gonna say it's my favorite. Like. Like, I feel so trapped by that. But I think one that I think is really interesting and does a lot of really cool work with the intersection of class and race is a Duke, the lady and a Baby by Vanessa Riley. Because in this one, I think it's a really playing around with, like, the set of assumptions that, you know, the aristocracy has about, like, who takes on certain roles in the household. And so in this book, if you haven't read it, and this is from a couple of years ago, Patience is the main character. And what happens is her husband committed suicide, and. Or, you know, that's what everybody's about talking tells her he committed suicide, and she has the temerity to sort of question this. And when this happens, they essentially, like, separate her from her newborn son and, like, kick her out of the house. And because she is from the West Indies, so she is a black woman, she essentially, like, gets hired back on by, like, new staff as, like, the baby's like, Wetner. And so it's this. And so she is like, I will do anything to be with my child, including take on this role. Right. Like, she is just. And it's a really. I think it's such a, like, really fascinating and really interesting look at, you know, kind of the. I don't know, the acceptance for her was obviously there. Only lasted as long as her husband was alive. And so his name was Lionel. And then the new guy, like, right. The air comes along, and his name's Busick, which I was always like, is that a real name? I remember Vanessa being like, yeah, at one point she was making a list. Maybe she did. Was she. Did we have her on the podcast? Right? She.

[A]

She wasn't on the podcast, but I have heard, yeah.

[B]

Like, she was keeping a list of, like, the wildest, like, regency names and was like, I'm gonna bring these back. And I was like, I don't think Busick's gonna be coming back, but I support you. And so he essentially finds out, like, he comes in and is like, what on earth is going on here? And he had been, you know, sort of out of the country and, you know, or, you know, sort of conveniently, like, really is, like, coming into a situation where he's expected to act a certain way. He has all these new roles, but he also can tell that something is really going on. And he and Patience essentially team up together to figure out, of course, like, what really happened to Lion. Is she in danger? Is the baby in danger? Is he in danger because of this? But I just remember thinking it was. You know, Vanessa is a historian, and all of her books are so deeply researched. And it really was, like, I just felt like I'd never read anything like that before. So I think that's just a good example of, like, someone who's really dealing with, you know, it's not just class now. It's, like, race and how that is gonna impact the story of this woman who, you know, was married and should have had the safety of that marriage. But then, like, the minute it was over, she was gone. And they were basically, you know, like, the baby's ours now. You know what I mean? So, anyway, it's great. It's called A Duke, the lady and a Baby.

[A]

You know, I'm thinking about. So my. Whenever I think of governess books, that sort of stand out for me because I feel like when you start reading about romance. When you start reading romance. Romance, you know, in the 80s or whenever I was. Whenever it was that I started reading romance. Like, there are so many governess books in those early years, but I think, like, one that I always think about is really being something that I'd never seen before is Diana Quincy's the Duke who Ravished Me, which is the premise of this book, is that this is a classic kind of. Kids arrive at the home of a reprobate duke, right? And basically, this. This young, kind of wealthy, libertine Duke who has, like, wild orgies in his house and lives a life that is not conducive to children. The book begins with an absolute bang. Like, the perfect start with, like, he. He's, like, in a sex room in this, like, massive estate, passed out from, like, a night of, like, complete orgy, whatever. And his butler comes in and is like, I need you to get up. Like, there's something going on. And he's like, I don't know. Like, there's nothing that I could possibly be needed for at this. Like, I'm too wealthy to be bothered in the state that I am in. Like, there are just, like, people. People passed out all over the room. And he's like, no, but this really is a situation. And it turns out that there are like twin 7 year old girls waiting at the door with their prim, proper, perfect, very, very judgmental and rightfully so governess in tow. And they're like, these two girls were the children of like a distant cousin who then were like shunted off on an uncle and now like the uncle is dead. And here they are again like now with this duke. And like at one point, very like sort of early in the book, one of the twins, these are, you know, Diana clearly knows 7 year olds. Like these are, they're precocious but they like make sense within the context of the book. And at one point like kind of early in the book, the one of them says like, you know, no one ever keeps us so like we're just here until you send us somewhere else. And like he is planning to send them somewhere else. Like these girls know the score. They know what happens to like kids who are just bounced around. And he also knows the score and like is looking like he's sort of proving them their low expectations. The bar is on the floor and he's like unable to clear it. And then, then you know, these girls are going. I think part of what I like so much about this book is these girls are going to upend his existence. Like he can no longer have sex parties in this house. In fact, there's this great moment where he walks into like his sex room which is like basically like a ballroom, like repurposed. And the kids are swinging on a sex swing and they're like, you have a swing inside your house.

[B]

Like this is so great, so wrong, but really funny.

[A]

And it's like delightful and very funny. And like in that way that Diana is, was like, it's like dry and clever and funny. And then you know, Isabelle the governess is like so proper and so buttoned up and you just feel like she could break it in any moment. Like because like they're so different, these two, but different in a really interesting way. Like she's the proper one and he's the one who's sort of like ebullient and like chaotic and what ends. And it becomes very clear that like her life is entwined with these girls existence to the point where like she cannot allow him to like pass them off to another house. Like her fear of being left like behind or losing these girls. And like of course Diana's always, she's always writing like three different books at once. Like she is a. She's also a historical mystery writer. And this book was One of her first romances where she, like, moved from historical mystery into romance. So there is a sort of through, like, a mystery piece to this book that I. Where I don't. I don't want to spoil the ending, but, like, her connection to these girls is so vital that, like, every time these two even get close, like, they have this hot kiss at the very beginning, and, like, she realizes, like, if it is. If he decides, like, this is an inappropriate relationship or it is discovered that they are, like, found together that. That they are, you know, having this kind of, like, inappropriate relationship and she gets sent away. Like, she understands that, like, she is hanging by a thread. You know, at any moment she could be sent away from these girls and from this house and it could ruin everything. And so, like, you really are given this sense of, like, her class. The class issue is so clear that he holds all the power. Like, the stakes of their relationship are so intense because, you know, like, here is a man who, if he doesn't choose to keep her or choose to love her or choose to, like, be with her, she'll lose everything. And then it is. It becomes very clear by the end of the book that, like, she will literally lose everything if. If this situation where she is governess and takes care of these kids and is perfect in every way and does this job to perfection and lets nothing interrupt her, if any of that falls apart, she is ruined. And so the stakes of this book, I feel like Diana's very good at layering the stakes of what happens if this doesn't go toward I love you. Be with me. I'm gonna make you my duchess. So that's the Duke who ravished me by Diana Quincy.

[B]

This week's episode of Fated Mates is brought to you by Lumi Gummies. Consistent, mellow, and super delicious, Lumi Gummies are specifically designed to make you feel good, not stoned.

[A]

Yes. If you're looking for an end of day de stressor, a midday mood boost, or help getting the best sleep ever, Lumi Gummies has a strain that's right for you. And listen, I started this whole podcast by saying things are getting weird out there. And that's just the truth. Things are, in fact getting weird out there. And it is becoming harder and harder to focus. Focus harder and harder to feel creative, harder and harder to sleep, harder and harder to live your life in a normal way that feels familiar. And Lumigummies can help you with that. Like, they really do. Every. Every once in a while when I just am feeling like just totally and completely strung out. They really do, like, give me a chance to just, like, shut off all the noise. And, you know, you don't feel stoned, you don't feel high, but you do just feel a little quieter and. Or at least I do. I'm not, you know, suggesting that you necessarily will, but I do. And, and so for me, you know, it's just nice to every once in a while have a gummy.

[B]

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[C]

I love people who do something who take, you know, there are a million of these at Governess Romances, and they have a very established kind of pattern. And I love people who, who take it and put it, turn it on its head. But if you, you, you asked about favorites. My actual, probably my actual favorite governess romance is actually a Tudor romance. So that's T u t o r, not T u d o r. And that's Deception by Amanda quick. And in 1993, she was already like, I'm gonna upend everything and turn it all on its head. And I've never seen anybody else do it like this, where it is the heroine who inherits these three boys that are, like, I think nephews, maybe are distant cousins, and they're extraordinarily unruly. They burst into her life in this, like, chaotic way. They have a giant dog that's always galloping around and, like, messing things up. And she has, like, a grumpy housekeeper who's, like, really mad about it all the time. And she herself, of course, Amanda Quick style is all she cares about is the study of ancient legends and maps, of course. So she is. All she wants is, like, a little bit of peace and quiet in her library to do her work. And here comes this man who is going to take the. Take the boys at night. This is true fantasy, right? Like, that's the fan is going to come in and take charge of these boys, and he imposes a schedule, which they all love because it's like, now suddenly they have structure. They have somebody who cares, like a, you know, male figure in their lives who's caring about them and expecting things from, from them. And he's Jared, the Jared Chillhurst. He's also a secret viscount of Course, of course. But. And he's secretly really in. In the house looking for a. A treasure map that she had to.

[A]

An erotic text.

[C]

A treasure. Very, very, very.

[B]

The way, you know, it's old school is that he's not a duke. He's not a secret duke.

[C]

He's a secret viscount.

[B]

I was like, I'm sorry, what are you. A thousand error. Come on.

[C]

Y' all talked about ravished. You did a ravish deep dive, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And like, that's one top three for me. But Deception is actually my, like, probably my top favorite. Amanda, quick, I haven't read this.

[B]

I don't think I.

[A]

But I do remember he has spectacles.

[C]

He has. He has an eye patch. He is basically looks like a pirate.

[B]

Amazing.

[C]

He is very. And I thought he. He is the lonely, like, competent member of a. Of a very romantic, passionate, dashing family that all thinks that he is just this, like, sad black sheep who, like, understands finance and gets things done. And he, He. He basically is. Goes searching for this treasure map to keep everybody else in his family from getting into trouble about it. He's like, I'm going to take care of this. I'll figure it out. But then while he's there, he's like, oh, this woman. I can. I can like, run her household and make things better for her. And like, of course, instantly, like, wait.

[A]

Is this the one where there are, like, caves?

[C]

That's ravage. This is the one where. This is the one where it turns out that she all. Well, I don't. I don't want to spoil it, but it all sort of. It's again from 1993, so, like, it all sort of hinges on.

[A]

If you haven't read it, you've had plenty of time, everyone.

[C]

His backstory sort of hinges on his. A failed love affair in which he was painted really badly. And he allowed himself to. To be painted really badly because it. The. Because he had walked in on the woman that he was going to marry with another woman. And so he didn't want to out her. And so he allowed himself to be sort of like, painted as the bad one in that relationship ending. And then it turns out that the heroine is like, clocked it instantly that these two were lesbian lovers because she had, like, grown up with her aunties. Just like, it's perfect. Everything about the book is perfect. It's so good. And he is just, you know, tall and dark, long, windswept black hair, looks a classic. He's great. And he just. He marches in there and, and, and Mary Poppins is her life. Like, he. He takes everything in hand and makes it, and. And she finally has time to work on her novel or whatever it is she's doing.

[A]

And it's.

[C]

It's incredible. So good.

[A]

Good.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I haven't read that in years.

[C]

Well worth a reread. I re. I reread it probably every. Every year. Every two years. It's just so good.

[B]

Okay, I'm going to talk about Snowed in with the Viking by Lucy Morris. This is a. I love a Viking.

[A]

Listen.

[B]

This is a Harlequin historical. They are so fun and, you know, really fast. I mean, I think they're like, you know, like 250 pages maybe. And somehow that, like, difference between that and 400 pages just makes a really fun read. And this, I think, solves the kid problem in an interesting way. Okay, so.

[C]

Embla.

[B]

I was like, elda. No, Embla is our heroine, and she is a. Like a gov. Not a government. It's Vikings. I don't know what you call it when you're a Viking. Your. Your child care worker friend. So she's like the governess or nanny, right, to these. To these kids. And the thing about Embla is she is essentially, like. She doesn't really have, like, a family of her own, and I can't remember the reason why, but the family of the boys, right, that she watches for essentially, like, have. At the beginning, right? Like, she was so important and vital to their family, and she really was, like, one of. And I. This part, I think, is what I really remember is she was like, the way I'm going to make these people love me and care for me is just by doing all the work, right? Like, I'm going to be the person who's going to say, I'll do it, and, you know, rush in and take care of it and. And because that's how she was going to, like, prove her worth and, like, make sure that she always had a place in this family. So the book opens with, like, now it's like a. And you find that out a little bit later. But, you know, the boy. It's like, run off. She runs after them. They're like the bad ones. Snow is coming. She gets separated from them. And then somehow. And I can't remember these details either, she sees that they are gonna make it back home safely. So someone picks the kids up and puts them on a sled, and they're gonna go back home. But she gets sort of, like, left behind, and she. She, like, takes a moment to really Feel sorry for herself, right? To cry a little, to kind of feel like, when I first was part of this family, they really cared about me. But, you know, I remember there's a point where she, like, basically says, like, or wonders, like, how long had it been since they said thank you or noticed, right? So she kind of feels like now she's not as important to them and, like, you know, the kids are being bad or whatever. So she takes a moment to feel sorry for herself. And then, you know, know, it's the Viking. Viking times, whatever they are. And she stumbles into a cave. Then along comes Runar, who has been exiled from, like, kind of the town. And she is. He essentially is like. He has food, she has mead. They, like, share a meal. And she sort of says to him, like, can I just, like, stay here overnight? I. I don't think I'm gonna be able to make it back in the. You know, in the dark or whatever. And he is, you know, like, a good guy, but what he has done is by after, like, being exiled. And I think, like, the people who exiled him, you know, is, like, her. The families, you know, like, somehow there's, of course, relationship with his family. So he has talked himself into this idea. He. There's a woman he loved. He couldn't be with her. He doesn't deserve anything good or wonderful. He's just going to stay. I mean, at one point, when he finds her, he literally thinks, like, how long has it been since I've talked to a person? He only talks to his, like, dog or whatever. All right? So, of course, what happens is then it's like a blizzard. And so these two get snowed in to, like, this cave, and then somehow they make it to, like, his cabin for, like, the winter. And the thing that I thought was really interesting about this is this is the first time, because now she's not with the kids, right? She's not doing her job. This is, like, the first time that she really has to think about or she gets to think about herself. Like, what do I want? What is the life I want for myself? You know, and of course, like, they fall in love, and they, you know, get to spend all winter together. And, you know, they do, like, you know, they have a lot of great sex, and they, you know, all this, all the things. And then when, if finally they can go back to the village, she sort of says to him, like. And he essentially has, like, asked her to stay, but she has sort of said, I have to go back because I need to just let Them know that I survived and see, you know, see them again. And then what happens, of course, is he sees how happy she is when they are first let back in and he just like, turns around to leave because he's like, she's better off without me, right? And of course she follows him like, what the hell is wrong with you?

[A]

Why aren't you staying?

[B]

And he's like, I can't stay. There's too many people in there. I just can't do it. I've been cast out. Like, these people hate me. You don't really know why, but it's a good reason and I gotta go. So it really. But I thought, like, the part that was really interesting is here. Instead of it being like a class difference, although it is for her and the family, something about being able to, like, step outside of that and be removed from it in a way that's sort of like it was an emergency. It wasn't like a choice she made. She didn't have to walk away and make that decision. Allows her to sort of figure out, like, what she really wants. And of course, everybody, I'm sure you'll be shocked to know what she really wants is Runar. So that is snowed in with the Viking by Lucy Morris. I had a ball reading.

[A]

Oh, that's so fun. I feel like there is also a whole series. Like when we. When we came up with the idea for this. This episode, we were like governesses and then we were like, maybe servants. Like, maybe like sort of. It feels like there's. There's also this other piece of romance where it's like Servants in Disguise. Like there's this kind of. Of that is a real old school vibe too. And I feel like the In Disguise piece is sort of. It's like, it's a big piece of. Of this, this Venn diagram of. Of books. And so when I think of Servants in Disguise, I. Especially when you go sort of older, like, into, like, older romances, old school books. I always have to talk about Sophie Jordan's Sins of a Wicked Duke because it's a book that couldn't be written now. Like, it would just. It wouldn't work the same way. The heroine is, you know, on the run, deep in disguise, and she masquerades as a footman in his house. So, you know, there is a situation where, like, there was a time and I wrote a ton of them, right? Like where I hear a heroine would dress at. In men's clothing and like, as a man by day, like, there's A kind of pretty. There are multiple Elizabeth Hoyt's that do this and then move, you know, and then be able to sort of throw off that disguise and live as a woman in the world whenever they want. And obviously like these are books that are of a time like now we know more. We do better when it comes to transness in text. And so but this Sins of a Wicked Duke is one that like where she just, she is disguised as a footman in his house, hiding away, like trying to like negotiate her way through, you know, secrets and uncover mysteries and like get the documents that she needs. And there is like the revelation that she is not. Not who she says she is. Happens in a bathtub and it's, you know, deeply sexy.

[C]

And.

[A]

And so I think about that book. I think about, you know, there's a great Kate. Oh shit. I just put Kate Noble. I just put her name like directly out of my head. But there's like a great Kate Noble book where a duke and it's actually a duology where a duke and his valet change places. And so.

[C]

What an idea, right?

[A]

They're so good. They're so good. And like the, the premise of this book is Trading Places meets Pride and Prejudice, right? Like, I mean, it's perfect. And so there's basically, you know, they all. They trade places and so the duke becomes, becomes his. Or it's not as valid. It's his secretary. And then his secretary like plays the role of the duke. And then they have this kind of. There are two books. And so, you know, those kinds of books that really. And this one, I mean, what a great tee up. Because it really gives you a sense of like class, right? Because in these books, books, of course also there is like the marriage minded woman, the like fortune hunter, the kind of like, you know, the, the wealthy woman falls for the. The secretary in place of the duke, right? And so like there is this kind of like twisty, turny relationship that has to be negotiated because when the revelation happens that you're not actually the servant or you're not not actually. Or you are actually a servant, like, suddenly class is just like. There's a bright light shined on it. And I think in these, this kind of secret identity switch that is very common in historicals does like a whole different thing in the way that we think about like nobility and, and acting with nobility and the difference between those two things.

[B]

Louisa, do you have another one?

[C]

Well, we're talking about non governesses. One of the very, my actual very first romance I ever read at age 11, far too young for this book was the Shadow and the Star by Laura Kinsale. And I know y' all have flowers from the storm on here, and that is. That's the one people talk about, deservedly so. And I feel like the other one that has kind of, like, had a renaissance is for my lady's Heart, the medieval one. But nobody ever talks about the Shadow and the Star, which might possibly be. Because there's some, like, kind of. Some elements that I think are a little tricky to deal with. There's, like, the. The hero has been trained by a Japanese master since he was a really young boy. And so there's some kind of. Some slightly odd white savior, exotic. Exotic vacation kind of elements to the. To the story. But the. The heroine. It's actually the heroine who I really love in this book. She's this Victorian. It's very Victorian, and she is very Victorian. Like, she was brought up by, I think, an aunt, but, like, that's a very impoverished, genteel aunt who would never say the leg of a table, would say the limb of the table. You know, like, they're very. Very, like, like, proper. And. And. But she has no money. She has nothing. She's like. But she's. Now the. The aunt has. Her aunt has died. But, like, this, like, cadre of. Of, like, older, impoverished, genteel ladies on her street all kind of take care of her a little bit, but she has to make her own way. And so she's got a job as a seamstress, and she runs into this wealthy family. Who are they? The. The. The father of the family is titled, but they live in Hawaii. And so they have this kind of, like, outside. They're very highly placed in, like, English society, but they're really outside of it, too. And they've made a choice to not live in England. And the hero is, like, the ward of that family who now kind of. He's all grown up and he's. And he's sort of. He thinks he's in love with the daughter of that family. The sort of, like, privileged, like, very sweet, but kind of spoiled, like, aristocratic girl. But he's also, of course, drawn to the seamstress who impresses the whole family. And eventually they hire her, like, as their social sex secretary to kind of, like, help them navigate London, the London social scene. And, like, all the formalities and all the things that they don't really understand because they, like, live this carefree, beautiful life, colonializing Hawaii. It's. There are some. Definitely some Tricky bits about this. I don't want to gloss over it. I do want to say it has my absolute favorite step back ever. I'm showing Jed and Sarah. It's like Fabio and a beautiful woman.

[A]

Wait, is there waterfall?

[C]

And her hand is just really lovingly gripping his ass. It's everything. Sadly that never happens in the book. They don't stand in a waterfall and kiss in the book. But it's really interesting. He comes to her at night and like dressed up with a. And with a mask on and everything. But she realizes that at Tim like almost immediately, which I think is a really interesting thing about these disguise books was like how. How and when do people under like recognize each other? When do you reveal it to the, to the reader and when does like often the reader knows and the characters don't.

[A]

Well that was a thing with your book where the, the third book in the series like this kind of like what I love about it and I don't think it's spoiler is that they, they all second book in the series which is the one that we're talking about where she's the gov. She's the chaperone and he's. And he's the bare knuckle fighter. Like they both know but then they don't tell.

[C]

Like so he reckon so when he picks her after he wins his fight, he, he recognizes her in that moment. He's like I'm gonna. When you finally see it from his pov, he's like I have to get her out of here. She doesn't belong here. She's too perfect and pure and beautiful to be in this horrible place of blood and pain and she shame. So he picks her because he recognizes her. But she thinks like I'm she. She recognizes him before he even fights because she has recently bound up his wounds with a strip of her petticoat like you do. She sees, she sees it in his like butt pocket or whatever and she's like oh my God, it can't be. But it is. Of course it is. So she, they. They recognize each other instantly and then.

[A]

They like hide it from each other.

[C]

They're each convinced that the other person has not recognized them. Which is, you know, requires a little bit of, of romance sleight of hand.

[A]

I guess for romance reasons.

[C]

A little romance magic there to follow that. But yeah, like so she, she knows that. So in this, in this the shadow and the star, Leda the heroine, she knows more about the hero than his, than his own family. Does she under. She knows he has this, like, strange secret life that. Where he goes out across the rooftops like a ninja at night and like, is doing some. Something with a ceremonial sword that she doesn't really understand. And she's so, like, she's just. She's just entranced by him, but also, like, very clearly aware that they will. They could never ever be together because he is connected to this wealthy family and she comes from, like, she has absolutely nothing. And she also. She also is very aware of her position in the house as, like, she owes them a lot once they. Once they've hired her. And she would never want to do anything to embarrass them or to like. I think that's an interesting element with a lot of these class difference books is they're like, the person who is of the lower class feels like, really grateful and really, like, wants to. There's all this pressure and the stakes are so high. Like, I don't want to do anything to rock this boat or ruin this because, like, she could be tossed back. Like, if she were tossed back out into the cold, she wouldn't have that thiefster's job anymore. She wouldn't have anything.

[A]

Right, Right. Yeah. Well, it's like. God, that Claypus, the wa. The Mary. Is it Married by Morning?

[C]

Is that the Leo and the Leo Hathaway book?

[B]

Yeah, still in the vault, everybody. So I cannot speak to that, so.

[A]

I won't spoil it for you.

[B]

But like, I bet they end up.

[A]

Catherine is really like a companion to all the other Hathaway girls and, like, is. They are in love. Love, these two. I mean, like, I like cats and.

[C]

Dogs, but they're obviously meant for each other.

[A]

They. They hate each other. But also, you know, they hate. They love each other. But she knows, like, if it doesn't work with Leo, like, she's out on her ear, like. And of course it's cl. It's Claypus, right? So, like, everybody. Everybody knows there's no way Leo would ever throw her out on her ear, ever. But, like, Catherine believes it. And so. And I think that that' syou're right. Like, that fear of. The fear of being lost. But, you know, and I'm gonna say this because, Eric, you might wanna put this, like, back in the kit when I talked about Kate Noble. But the second book, in that game, in the Governess Lie and the lady series, one of the things that's really interesting about that book is that the stakes in the set second book are that in the first book it was revealed that the two characters switched Places. So in this, the second book, is the lady kind of being scorned by society for having fallen, for not having noticed that she fell for somebody really wealth, like, who was not wealthy. Like, he. Surely somebody poor, a poor servant could. Couldn't have possibly, like, like, pretended well enough to be a believable, like. So clearly she knew she was, like, climbing down into the muck when she fall. When she fell for this person. And she's dealing with that in the second book. And then it's like. And that's the love story. And so I think there's that too. Like, when it's twisted on its head and it's a. It's the heroine falling for a male servant. Like, there's the layer of kind of public condemnation there, too.

[B]

I have one more where it's like, it's not an official. This person doesn't have an official role, but it kind of falls into this, I don't know, archetype for me, which is. Have you ever read It Takes Two To Tumble by Kat Sebastian? And it was not on my list, but you mentioned the Sound of Music. It is essentially a Sound of Music retelling, but like a gay radio romance. And in this romance, Ben Sedgwick lives in, you know, the village or whatever, he's a vicar. And he essentially ends up getting tasked with, like, watching the absent naval Captain Philip's kids. His. Philip's wife has died. And he basically, like, Philip is like, listen, my job is ocean. So he's like a thicker baby.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And.

[B]

Right. And it's like, here's the really fun thing about this book is I will. I'm sure I've mentioned this on the podcast before. When I read this the first time, I was like, yeah, sure, this looks fine. Like, whatever. And then as I was reading it, I was like, wait, is this the.

[C]

Sound of Music retelling?

[B]

But make it gay. Hello. And it's really fun. And so, you know, Philip just has no. Literally, like, no idea. And I mean, this is like the classic, like, not only does he have no idea how to raise the kids, he doesn't even really know how to be a dad. You know, his job was being away in the ocean. His wife raised the kids. He would, like, come home and not in, like, a terrible way, like, knock her up, leave, be gone for, you know, years, or however the. It worked in back in Regency times when you're a naval captain. And so when he comes back, he, you know, Ben is kind of like, what the fuck is wrong with you? These are your kids. You got to figure this out. And so he, you know, like kind of this romance with Ben allows him to both kind of like get over the grief of like his lost wife, but also like try to really figure out and learn how to be a good father. So it's just like a really fun read. Like this is one of those books where like I remember the like the first. I mean I was delighted by being like wait, this is the Sound of Music retelling. Amazing. But also just I think the best romance is sometimes especially if there's grief on page. Find a way to make. There's also has to be some like zany madcap fun. And I think that that's one thing that because if you know a governess is involved with this man who's an aristocrat or in this case like a naval captain, you know, his wife is gone, there's sadness that has to be there and the kids are young enough that this loss is fairly recent. Like this is kind of some unforgiving romance math. And I think that I really, I remember I just. This is like a really fun book. So that's Seducing the Sedgwicks by Kat Sebastian.

[A]

I just want to give a shout out to some contemporary like nannies because I think nannies, nannies like governesses walked so nannies could run or I don't know, I don't know if that's accurate but I'm an avowed QB Tyler fan and I actually really love a nanny romance because they feel in contemporary like they're super. Listen, they're always taboo. This is a work violation for sure. This is not even an even as governesses but, but in contemporary romances like the way that we thread the needle on nannies in contemporaries is often with babies which feels like that's even harder. Like babies cry and have to be handled. But QB Tyler has several nannies. I'll put them in, we'll put them in the photo array. But they're all like deeply sexy. Like one handed reaction reads and like incredibly incredibly fun. Always a kind of like down on her luck, you know, young woman who gets like hired into the home of a kind of again like a man, a man who's been stuck with these, these kids or like you know, someone's died in a car accident and here's a baby delivered to him. Um, and I will tell you I enjoy every one of them. So thanks to QB Tyler again everybody go read those.

[B]

Amazing.

[A]

But I do think, but I actually do think that there's something interesting about how, like, contemporary romance has, like, handles. The nanny position, you know, you think about, like, Rebekah Weatherspoon Rafe. Rafe, which people talk about all the time, which is a Manny romance. And I think, again, it's sort of threading that needle of class in a really interesting way that feels. It seems more difficult to do in contemporary in a lot of ways because we can't. Like you said earlier, Luisa, you can sort of paint the lens with Vaseline when you're looking at historical circles and, like, wave away the fact that this is an HR virus.

[C]

I should say that one of the things I really love about indeception is that the heroine is keenly conscious of the fact that she is his employer. She brings it up a lot and is always trying. Always trying to stop herself from. From kissing him because he's so irresistible. But. But she's. She's really, really.

[A]

She tries.

[C]

She's. And she's really like, no, this is really dishonorable. I really can't do this. Like, it's. You know, of course, because it's Amanda Quick. She has taken, like, every single. You know, every single possible trope and, like, just flipped it just that little bit so that it's adorable.

[A]

And.

[C]

And you think about it in a different way because. Because it's the. The man sort of being like, no, I promise, it's all right. And she's like, no, no, I couldn't. I couldn't. It wouldn't be right.

[B]

It wouldn't be right. Yeah, I love.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Great.

[A]

I was just gonna. I was just gonna say that I actually think that the. My contemporary nanny wrote. Since we were talking about. About, like, oh, is it Jane A. Is it Sound of Music for me? Contemporary nanny romances. The button was installed by Mystic Pizza, which. Listen, that is not an appropriate relationship.

[B]

That.

[A]

Is it Phoebe Kate's. Who has the relationship. They're in, like, a. He owns a lighthouse.

[C]

Wait, I. I have never actually seen Mystic Pizza.

[A]

I know, I know. Well, the next time we go on a. On a retreat, we're gonna have to watch it, obviously.

[C]

Perfect.

[A]

It's not. It's annabeth Gish, and she's a babysitter for, like, a guy who's, like, in Connecticut and they're living. The guy lives, like. I don't know if he lives in a lighthouse or if they just, like, happen to be in a lighthouse. And it's totally. Listen, this is not a romance.

[B]

This is totally inappropriate.

[A]

Like, not only. It's just a workplace Violation. It's also like, I. I'm pretty sure she's a teenager, but it's, you know, the. It's the 80s.

[B]

No.

[A]

And when I was. When it was the 80s and I was like watching this movie that my parents should not have been allowing me to watch, like, but did in fact install like 12 million buttons for me, including clearly the like babysitter button, which. Well, what I will say though is all her friends in that mo. In that movie are like, what the is wrong with you?

[B]

Like, that's funny.

[A]

This is. Lily Taylor is in this movie and like, is the voice of reason in this friend group. And she's like, this is not.

[B]

I feel like a lot of like these like kind of one handed, one hour Jessica style Ku reads are like, you know, oh, God, Jessica. You know, like. But like, these are not romances, everybody. I think I said what they were at the top.

[A]

But the QB Tylers. Excuse me, the QB Tylers are romances. I'm defending that.

[B]

I did not bring up qb. It's fine. QB does.

[A]

She's doing Jessica though.

[B]

That's.

[A]

I think, yes, you're right. They're doing a different thing. It's taboo.

[B]

Well, what. That's the taboo. That's what you're talking about? Yeah, yeah.

[A]

What was in the past, like a legitimate relationship in current and contemporary romance. It does edge into taboo. But I will say I'm like a pretty basic for nanny romances. And I hate a kid in. In a book. As you. As you both know, as everyone who listens knows, they're tricky.

[C]

Very tricky.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's why I don't want them on page. I also, I feel this way about pets and books too. Like, it's fine if he has a dog, but I don't need him to be there.

[B]

I mean, listen, in this. Snowed in with the Viking warrior or whatever, maybe snowed in with the Viking. Maybe he's not a warrior. There is a part he has like a dog. And I'm like, well, okay, he doesn't talk to people, so he gets a dog. But like at one point, you know, like the dog gets attacked by wolves and like, you know, it's. I was into it. Fine.

[A]

Listen, there are some people who do good dogs. Like Elizabeth Hoyt does a great dog. They're always relevant. There's also all those old schools where she like tames wild wolves and then brings them in and they're like. And the heroes are. Are all like, stand back. I need to broadsword this dog. This wolf and she's like, what do you mean? He's my sweet baby. That's different. That's a different kind. That's a romance dog.

[B]

And I want romance dog. There you go. What else do you have to say about that? Nothing.

[A]

All right, Louisa Darling, what are people. Where can people find your books ever? Everywhere?

[C]

Yeah, pretty much everywhere. Everywhere except most. Except indie bookstores. I haven't figured that out yet, but hopefully, hopefully someday.

[A]

Indie bookstores. If you're out there, you should help Louisa figure out how to do this because they're great and you should sell them, but also they can find you online.

[C]

Where@louisa darling.com. and I don't really Facebook, but I do Instagram. What is it Louisa Darling writes? Wanna say? Like, all right, should probably know this.

[A]

And what's next?

[C]

I'm currently writing the first book about the de Vere family. They have were. If you read the last book, the Scoundrel Take Me Away. Boom. Amnesia book. They're like three different romance heroes are very clearly teased. So I've tried to start at all three of their books and now I have to try to decide which one to finished.

[A]

These are. This is the moment where as a reader I like screenshot my Kindle and then send her a picture. And I'm like, this guy, this one, right? And it's like one random man just like passing through. That's the best.

[B]

Like romance Bloodhound. You're like, there he is.

[C]

Yep, there he is.

[B]

I sense a future main character just passed through.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Who's that woman with a fabulous pair of shoes? I. I see her story coming my way.

[A]

Exactly, exactly. Romance Bl.

[C]

We're all so good at it. We know exactly what. We all know exactly what to listen.

[B]

Sometimes it does steer you wrong often in Romantasy. Right. Like in a heart. In a heart of blood and ashes, there's like a. You know, like the. Yeah, but no, but it was also that there was like, you know, like the evil. Blah, blah, blah. I was like, ooh, is that gonna be. And I was like, oh, no, they're really evil. Oh, I guess not.

[C]

Romance evil, you gotta make them gross too. If they're evil evil, you gotta make them gross.

[A]

Also, they can't be handsome and evil.

[B]

No, they have smell like cod liver oil. Like that too easily trick. Yes.

[C]

Romanticity doesn't follow the rules. They don't. They don't play the rule. Play by the rules the same way.

[B]

I think they have. You know, someone on the Discord once said that they are developing their own set of rules. And I think that's true. It's just gonna splinter off and become its own genre.

[A]

Yeah, it's something else. You're. It's a different. It's a different.

[C]

And I support them.

[A]

Um, yeah, but it's a different podcast for those rules. We have a specific set of rules. Um, anyway, what else, Jen? We have anything else? It's just the ending now.

[B]

It's the part where I ended.

[A]

Sir, I'm Sarah McLean. I'm here with my friends Jen Prokop and Louisa Darling. We are Fated mates. You can find us any Wednesday, every Wednesday, even wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find us [e-mail] where you will find show notes for this episode that include all of the links to Luis's books, all of the links to all of the books that we talked about today. Also on the podcast, you can head over and check on the collections page where you can leave the algorithm behind and let the Fated Mates listeners and Fate favorites deliver you delicious groups of books that we think are great. Luis has done one of those.

[B]

Oh, yeah?

[A]

And what is it?

[C]

It was boxers. Boxers, fighters. All historical, though.

[B]

I think.

[C]

I think I did only historical.

[A]

If you love a historical fighter, head over and check Louisa's collection for other historical fighting books. You can also find us on online at Fated Mates pod on Instagram and threads and Fated Mates on Blue Sky. We are still raising money for the Virginia midterm elections, the local Senate and House elections in Virginia. Head over to fatedmates.net fatedstates for more information on that. And give some money to the state's project which is raising money for the off cycle elections there. What else? I think that's it. I don't have anything going on this month. Do you have anything going on this month? Any events?

[B]

No.

[A]

Wednesday. I just want to live Wednesday.

[B]

What month?

[C]

What month is it in the. In the world of Fate of May.

[A]

Oh, wait. I do actually have one. Also, everybody, if you're in New York City and. And you want to come out on October 21st to see me and Nora Dalia celebrate the launch of her new contemporary romance, Backslide. Come do that. We'll be at the RIP bodice on the 21st at 7pm we'll put links to tickets in show notes. Thanks so much. We love you. We hope you're taking care of yourselves and other people.