B (1:46)

And that. And you're stuck with building your own brand because that's the business.

A (1:50)

Wait, so what are you doing with social media?

B (1:54)

Very little.

C (1:55)

Growing up on faded mate.

A (1:56)

Sarah, you're Jane and Krentz on social media.

B (1:59)

Yeah. Yeah. I try to consolidate everything under Jane Ann Kranz because what am I going to do? Rent two websites, three websites? I don't have time for that. Nobody has time for that. So everything is under Jane Ann Krentz on Instagram or Facebook or your Amanda Quickbooks.

A (2:15)

Do not say Jane Ann Krentz on them on the COVID Right back at.

B (2:19)

The start, I had killed off the Jane Ann Krentz career at another publisher.

C (2:23)

RIP this is why it's a Lifetime achievement award. Jane, you literally rose from the dead.

A (2:29)

Yeah. Resurrection is a.

C (2:32)

And name for Jane Ann Lazarus.

A (2:34)

I can't name that many.

B (2:38)

There is that thing about being able to reinvent yourself. That's a pretty crucial, as we all know, element in the business to surviving the business. But the Jane Castle books do have Jane Ann Krentz writing as Jane Castle.

A (2:51)

Right. Do you find that you still have readers who discover you in one name and then are surprised that you are even now all the time? 4 Lifetime achievement awards in.

B (3:05)

If I go to a signing, I can absolutely guarantee you there'll be a whole bunch of people, the line who did not know I wrote as Jan Grant or Amanda Quick or Jane Castle.

C (3:15)

Well, and that's. That's when you're really like, this is the real problem. Right. People be like, I would read seven of your books a year. I had no idea.

B (3:23)

Exactly.

A (3:24)

Jane, you probably know about this, but there was back in the day, I mean, the. I mean, I'm sure you know about this and the. I don't.

C (3:30)

I.

A (3:31)

It predated me, I think, as a reader. But there was a. A book that they would publish, and it was like all of the pseudonyms of all of. All of the pen names of all of the authors. So you would, you know, open to the Jane Ann Krentz page, and it would say Jane Castle, you know, Amanda Quick. It would, you know, say Aaron St. Clair under the Rachel Ryan, Sandra Brown. Right.

C (3:55)

Well, and everybody, if you're new, the reason why is because different. Like, you had to have a different name at different houses, essentially. It was almost like they're like, we own this name, so you can't be this name somewhere else. And so if you were writing across categories, right. You're writing for Harlequin and Silhouette and Pocket. You had to have different names.

B (4:15)

Yeah, that was the way it was in the old days. I don't think that applies anymore. But yeah, although people still writer. I still see writers taking pen names if they're gonna try something really different.

A (4:24)

Totally new.

B (4:25)

Yeah. And there is some logic to that. The problem is getting attention for that new name. It's just so hard.

A (4:31)

It's so difficult. I mean, it's interest because I think a lot of the publishers, traditional publishers especially, feel like, well, if you're shifting genre. Right. Like, if you're moving, for example. So Diana Quincy, for example this year, and Lenora Bell, both historical romance writers, are both writing thrillers this year, and they are straight down the middle. Thrillers. And Lenora, for her work has literally created, like a character who will then be the sort of detective through all of her future books, hopefully. And both of those publishers, I think, were like, well, we start fresh. You're a debut now. You know, we treat this like a debut.

C (5:08)

There's like a long storied history of that, too. Like when I think of, like, some of my favorite romance authors, right. Sandra Brown and I mean, Tammy Hogue did it. Like, a lot of people, like, sort of like these were like love swept authors to me, and all of a sudden they're writing thrillers now. It's like, okay, but Tammy, what about the trouble with jj?

A (5:25)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (5:27)

No, I think that is the question. And it's not like there's a long, long and sordid history of authors using other pen names.

A (5:37)

Yeah, yeah. Well, we love you in all forms. All names.

B (5:41)

Thank you.

A (5:42)

All personalities.

C (5:44)

Sarah obviously only writes as Sarah MacLaine. But remember, at Fated Mates Live Last in St. Louis, there was a woman who came to, like what she thought was gonna be a signing for you and had no idea you had a podcast. And like, Fated Mates Live Jane is a production. There are What? There were 250 people in the audience.

A (6:05)

It's goofy. We say lots of inappropriate things that have nothing to do with books are but my book.

C (6:10)

And so she came through the line and you told me about it later, and I was like, okay. That woman stumbled into literally, like, like Alice falling down into like, she's like, now I'm in Wonderland or hell. But she stuck it out, so I assumed she had a good time. But I. That was like, one of my favorites. She just thought she was coming to a Sarah MacLean signing and instead came to Fated Mates Lives.

B (6:32)

That's funny. That's great.

A (6:34)

Getting the full McLean experience. So, Jane, tell us about the shop on Hidden Lane.

B (6:41)

Ah, the shop on Hidden Lane is just out now, January 26th, New Year. And it's got a dog. I just want to get that up front.

C (6:51)

But the dog lives a very charming. Like a romance dog, basically. Right?

A (6:57)

A romance dog.

C (6:58)

Romance dog. Like, he practically can talk to you.

A (7:00)

Jen is not a dog person, but she liked this dog.

C (7:02)

I do like a romance dog. Bruce, right? Wasn't it Bruce?

B (7:05)

Bruce is the name of the dog. Yeah, yeah. And I just want to get that out there because that's the new market I'm going for with this. The dog. Dog people.

A (7:12)

Dog readers.

C (7:14)

Well, and romance dog is not dogs.

A (7:16)

Dog people.

C (7:17)

Yeah, right.

B (7:18)

Yeah, yeah. It's not a romance of dogs.

C (7:20)

Yeah, I like that. We haven't mentioned the characters yet. But like, the other thing about a. A good romance dog like Bruce is you can tell that half the time he's like these two idiots. Why can't they get it together? Oh, I love it when like.

A (7:31)

Yeah, yeah. Gets involved.

B (7:33)

Yeah. Animals are psychic. We all know that. And this particular dog has got a psychic vibe because he's descended from one of the animals that was affected when the government's big experiment went awry back in the 20th century and blanketed an entire town with a mysterious fog. And everybody woke up with psychic talents. And I thought, well, you know, if the people woke up with psychic talents, maybe the animals did too.

A (8:03)

So this is so fun.

B (8:06)

Yeah. But the story itself is for me one of my. My story has always been romantic suspense. And that's. I've written that in every genre under. Regardless of what name I'm writing under, if you pick up one of my books, you're probably going to get a murder and certainly a mystery. I don't know how to plot.

A (8:26)

Yeah. What else are these idiots going to do while they fall in love?

B (8:31)

Something useful. Solve the crime. But along the way, it has occurred to me that the thing about romantic suspense is that it usually, and in my case always pairs two people together who are going to have to make that relationship work on a very fundamental level in order to survive. The stakes are high because there's a killer somewhere in the background and they're going to have to figure out who to trust, and fast. And my assumption as a writer, never having been there, my assumption as a writer is that under the force of survival, you're going to learn a lot about a person in a hurry. So the things that might take months to figure out about another person in terms of can I trust them? Sense of honor, their integrity, who are they really working for, you know, that kind of thing. Those are all going to get crammed into a shorter, which is lucky for me because most of my stories take place in about a week.

A (9:30)

Same in case anybody wondered where Sarah MacLaine learned her timing. It's Jane Ann Krentz and Amanda Quick, everyone.

C (9:37)

I mean, why have them dilly dally?

A (9:39)

I know they're either for each other or not.

B (9:42)

Yeah, don't mess around. Figure it out fast. But it occurs to me that that is a form of the old fashioned shotgun wedding, which has become difficult to do because we're supposed to have more agency than that now. But in reality, I'm sure still happens.

C (9:57)

Yeah. So before we talk about shotgun weddings, though, I wanna pause and talk a little bit more about their shop on Hidden Lane. Like, Jane's like, okay, I did my job and talked about the book. No, ma'. Am. In fact, you have not. One of the things that was really interesting to me, too, about the book and this series, which I have read most of. Cause I think the Fog Lake series and I really enjoy sort of a evil, like government or corporate entity versus, like, the little guys. And I. It is clear that you do as well. You know, rich people are often the villains and their villainy is often very simple. Right. It's just greed. I just want more. And so you have, like, a blueprint that you, you know, I know you're really interested in, like, psychic abilities and like, sort of, you know, kind of like, how do people deal with, like, the changes they're experiencing? But often the bad guy is pretty ecstatic in that sense. You know, it's just, again, like, it's greed. I want more. Why is that such a core part of, like, your story? Or like the opposite, maybe, in some way? Is greed the opposite of, like, sort of the expansiveness of, like, having a psychic ability to you?

B (11:10)

Greed is part of it, but I think the ultimate human temptation is power.

C (11:16)

Yeah.

B (11:17)

And the ability to have some kind of psychic added power to your own set of powers would be pretty hard to turn down, regardless of whether you're a good guy or a bad guy.

C (11:30)

Yeah.

B (11:31)

Well, there's other reasons I do the psychic thing because I don't have to study police procedurals and forensics and DNA and all that stuff. Because you're never going to solve the crime that way. Because it was a crime that is somehow related to the psychic community. And there's no tests or measurements or way to measure psychic murder by psychic means.

C (11:56)

Right. Like, everybody, everything can just be, like, fun and invented. Yeah.

A (11:59)

It's like Stranger Things. It seems appropriate to be talking about this this month.

B (12:04)

Well, it also takes me back to the classic amateur sleuth.

C (12:09)

Yes.

B (12:09)

Where Sherlock Holmes icon, which is basically about solving the crime through observation, awareness and intuition. This is probably a good time for me to point out that I don't. In our business, as we know, paranormal has come to mean supernatural.

C (12:24)

Yes.

B (12:25)

Vampires.

C (12:26)

Yeah.

B (12:27)

Witches, werewolves, that kind of thing. I don't do that kind of paranormal. So if there's anybody out there thinking, oh, she writes paranormal romance, you're not going to find that kind of story. But the psychic thing to me is like, one step beyond intuition. And we've all got intuition or think. We do and where's the line between intuition and psychic perception? And that's that woo woo factor that I love to play with. And it works well in developing a relationship because there's other ways of knowing.

C (12:57)

It's a nice pairing with romance where, right. They're falling in love in a week, like, what are you gonna trust? And when you have very human beings pain, right. Like both Luke and Sophie have like, you know, ex lovers who have, you know, kind of done them wrong or people who have hurt them. Like, we all have that. And so, you know, that doesn't. Having psychic abilities does not prevent you from being human and experiencing those types of, you know, kind of problems. And then how do you trust someone new? Like, you know, is your intuition enough? And so I think it's also like a great metaphor just for like how we fall in love. And so, you know, I do find that it's like a really fun. And then there's like all the stuff that I imagine every time I read one of your books. I think she had a great time thinking of this. She had a great fucking time thinking, like, what's this dummy going to be able to do? You know, And I do think that that must be, you know, I. I find myself wondering, like, do you like, see something cool out there and think, oh, this could. What if this was blown out to a thousand? What psychic ability would be? Like, how do you. Or do you keep like a master list? What are you doing?

B (13:59)

Well, I look at ordinary things. Because if you want an example of something that would be easy for us to attribute to psychic ability, look at music. There's something. There's a guy playing a guitar down there on the stage, rows and rows and rows away. He's not touching you with any physical element at all. And he can make you cry, he can make you laugh, he can make you want to dance, he can make you sing along. What is that? What kind of power is that? Where's the line between that and psychic energy? I don't know. I mean, I think it's easier to write off power in ways that once we're able to measure it once you can have. Well, he's putting out sound waves. Okay. But there was a time nobody knew about sound waves, you know.

C (14:49)

Right, right, right.

B (14:52)

But they didn't question the power of music. Yeah. They used it. And I think. I think if there is a psychic vibe out there, we just haven't discovered it yet. And we stumble over it probably and don't recognize it.

C (15:06)

I think that is true. I do Think that's true too.

B (15:08)

So that's how I get away with that kind of problem.

C (15:11)

Okay, I have one last question. This one. Maybe this is silly, but. Okay. We've talked about your lifetime achievements. Word. Jane, do you have any idea how many books you've actually written? Like, do you, like. No. No. No idea. Okay, here's why. The characters are Luke and Sophie. And I found myself. I've always thought in my brain, okay, like Sarah has written, like, certain names have been crossed off the list. But I was like, there's no way that Jane has not written other people named Luke and. Or Sophie. You know what I mean? Like, at some point you recycle through. You're like, oh, I guess I gotta go back to fucking Luke here. I don't know.

B (15:49)

You know, when in doubt, go back to the, like, the basics, the foundations. Yeah, I just, I. I'm always on the lookout for a new name, but frankly. But I prefer the older names because they have a lot of weight.

A (16:04)

Staying power. Yeah, sure. Yeah.

B (16:06)

Yeah. The modern names don't feel like they've acquired that weight yet.

C (16:11)

This week's episode of Fated Mates is brought to you by Lexi Davis, author of Pretty Vicious A Southern Gothic Dark Academia Romance.

A (16:22)

Jen, Laurel just wants to survive college. She's got a dad who needs a lot of help. She's trying to fly under the radar. She takes a job delivering pizzas, which is supposed to be a very safe and natural side hustle for a college student. Until the night she is sent to deliver a pizza to one of the most secretive and elite fraternities on campus. And she witnesses a freaking murder. So now she is a prisoner of the Order inside there. A blood bound society that controls everything from politics to police. They rule with ritual obedience and violence. And there is no one in the Order more powerful than Carson Ashford, heir to the powerful Ashford legacy. He is cold, he is commanding. He is infuriatingly magnetic. And under the rules of the Order, he has bonded to Laurel and marked her as his body, mind and soul. But Laurel is not here to be claimed. Not without a fight. So to save her father and her future, she has to navigate a twisted realm of initiation rites, brutal secrets, and a bond that just might destroy both her and Carson.

C (17:35)

As long as he is destroyed, too. Fine. In this dark academia, enemies to lovers, secret society romance, we're gonna get a feisty female main character who is, yes, blackmailed and taught to fight by this morally gray man. But you know what? I think she's gonna hold her own.

A (17:52)

I believe in her.

C (17:53)

So would like to check out Pretty Vicious. It is available right now in print and E and with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited. You can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Lexi Davis for sponsoring this week's episode.

A (18:12)

You, you know, you started you. We. And I think we will get further down the. Down the rabbit hole on contemporary versus historic versus, you know, historical or you know, how, how certain things really just lend themselves to certain time periods. But it is, it is true that there is a sort of a timelessness about certain names that then. And it does actually sort of remove the book from contemporary in an interesting way. Right. Like if these characters have been named like Caden and Brianna, you'd be like, well, this is definitely a contemporary.

C (18:51)

Well, I mean, like Jennifer, I'm sorry, she's a 50 year old white lady, you know, like you. I'm sorry, my name is just really not available right now for like 25 more years when it becomes cool again.

A (19:01)

Yeah, their kids after their grandmothers.

C (19:03)

Yes. But until then, right, like, and so I do, I think, like, right.

A (19:08)

I get it. Signed Sarah from the 70s. I get it.

B (19:14)

I think Jennifer's turning is turning into a classic name. It has been for a while now and other names and Sarah has always been a classic name.

A (19:22)

So I mean, the Bible helps. But I want to get into something that you said initially about your plotting. Right. That you, you know, yes, obviously there's a timeline. You pull a timeline very tight. There's a ticking clock kind of always in a Jane and Krentz Amanda quick book. Somebody's always on your tail or you know, someone's about to die or we better find that cave and also maybe banging it. But.

B (19:50)

You know, only if there's time.

A (19:55)

Romance. Time makes time.

B (19:59)

Words to live by.

A (20:03)

So. Okay, so. But I would say one of the things that's really interesting is you, you sort of paint this as you have two people. They have to instantly really because of threat. They have to learn to know each other very quickly. And so often your books, you know, we talk so much about conflict here on the podcast and how right now, like it feels like conflict is a really difficult thing to find in contemporary romance because the books are, you know, I think the time period that we're in is sort of calling forth a lot of really soft books. And the softness of a plot does not lead to you and me against the world, which is what you always write.

C (20:44)

Right.

A (20:45)

And so I think one of the interesting things. And you sparked this as so, everybody, Jane is not here to talk about psychic abilities in romance novels. We said, would Jane like to come on to fated Mates and talk about one of her favorite tropes? And the email that I got back delighted me and Jen.

C (21:05)

Oh, yeah.

A (21:05)

It said, can we talk about shotgun weddings and arranged, like, enforced marriages?

C (21:09)

I'm pretty sure I like slam.

A (21:11)

Yes. Jen and I were like. And miraculously, we've never done an episode on forced marriages.

B (21:20)

Really? Really?

A (21:21)

We've done marriage of convenience.

C (21:23)

We've done, like, Waking Up Married in Vegas.

B (21:26)

Yeah.

C (21:27)

You know, we've done a lot of that, but, like, we've danced.

A (21:30)

We've done a lot of marriage books. But we. This is a particular trope, and I think you've really nailed it that it lives even when it's not romantic suspense in the romantic suspense are on the romantic suspense branch of the tree because it does end up with these two people against the world in. Or whatever that world may be. So can we talk a little bit first of all about the difference between marriage of convenience and sort of a softer combination of people? Because there is a lot of that right now in contemporary and in historical. I mean, there's a lot of, like, fake relationship. Two people pretending. Two people who are, like, making a deal where their relationship is beneficial to both of them. The illusion of their relationship is beneficial to both of them. And I think, like, fake relationship. And contemporary is a direct sort of descendant of arranged marriage. Yes. Marriage of convenience, rather. Can we talk about where forced marriage. Right. Shotgun weddings are? They live in a different space. And so what are they doing?

B (22:47)

It's forcing two people to learn to commit to each other because they can't risk committing to anybody else. They don't have a choice in that sense, but they do have a choice of making the commitment. And it all comes down to trust. I think they have to find someone they can trust in order to achieve their own objectives, which is usually some form of agency. You know, the reason for women agreeing to arrange marriages in the first place wasn't so much that they had a choice in the. You know, they didn't have a choice in the marriage so much, but they did know that once they got married, they were going to have some agency because a married woman had more power than an unmarried woman. Even if she derived it through her husband's power, it gave her some agency that she wasn't going to have otherwise. So there was a reason for agreeing to a business marriage, essentially because the two fathers had a business they wanted to combine and they wanted the couple.

A (23:50)

And this is a really classic Harlequin Presents from the early days.

B (23:58)

But the earliest version of that, where the real power and energy comes from is the marriage of revenge.

C (24:06)

Oh, yes, now you're speaking. Sarah's lovely song.

A (24:10)

Singing My Song.

B (24:14)

That's where real conflict and that's where real. The real battle of the sexes actually take place, I think. And that comes to us from the Chicago. Going way back.

A (24:26)

Yeah, yeah.

B (24:27)

And it has never gone away. Harlequin Presents is still doing.

C (24:31)

Oh, yeah.

B (24:33)

Versions of. Of the marriage for revenge. And that is. That, I think, is the fundamental story of. Of the forced marriage that. And the compromised.

C (24:44)

Yeah, right, right.

B (24:45)

The compromised bride has to be. Her reputation has to be salvaged. And so. But this is the interesting part, because he marries her out of a sense of duty and honor, and that makes him a good guy because you can build on duty and honor, and not.

A (25:04)

Even always duty and honor to her. Sometimes it's just. It's duty and honor to his family, to society, to the title, to. And she's sort of collateral damage. But we can, as readers, hang our hat on that. Like, he will save the basket of puppies. Right?

B (25:24)

Yes. Because he's fundamentally a hero.

C (25:27)

Right. Yeah.

B (25:28)

And that's what this is all about.

A (25:29)

Only he could learn to love.

C (25:32)

You say that, but I would read that book every day and twice on Sunday.

B (25:39)

Well, you know, it's the foundation story, really, of the historical. You know, Sarah and I both been around long enough to know that one. You know, you've seen it. Jennifer.

C (25:49)

Well, every. Julie Garwood. I liked what you said, though, about, like, her. Like, the thing in Julie Garwood, right. Is like, this woman has nothing, Right. She's like the youngest daughter. She's being married off, blah, blah, blah. And then she gets to Scotland and she's Alec and Cade's wife. And all of a sudden she's like, I have power, but I'm going to, of course, use it for good and, like, save this boy from drowning in a stream.

A (26:11)

Yeah, yeah.

C (26:11)

I had not thought about that angle. I think that's always brilliant.

B (26:15)

Yeah. Getting married was a way of getting agency. And I'm sure in the old days there were a lot of marriages in which she was happy to be a widow.

C (26:23)

Yeah.

A (26:24)

Yeah. Well, those two are always so great, Right? Like the forced marriage that ends with, like, her virgin widow. Like, he died in bed before, you know, collapsed, luckily collapsed at the foot of the marriage bed on the eve of their wedding.

C (26:40)

Well, I mean, he's 75 year old man looking. Looking at a new bile. Young 17 year old. What else was gonna happen?

A (26:45)

Oh, yeah, a Judvaro special.

B (26:50)

And Christina Dodd is writing an interesting series right now, which is very modern in its tone, but it features the daughter of Romeo and Juliet.

C (27:00)

Oh, nice.

B (27:01)

Turns out they did not die in the. In the vault. And living happily with seven or eight kids, the oldest of which is Rosie. And Rosie is now being forced to marry the Prince of Verona because he's compromised. She's been compromised by the Prince of Verona. So she's getting a lot of mileage. She's got a whole series now based on these two characters and they solve crimes. It's a historical mystery series, but it's really delightful. But it's a straight up arranged marriage. She's actually in love with somebody else. There's somebody else in the beginning and. But she goes through it for the sake of the family.

A (27:41)

Yeah.

B (27:43)

And he goes through it for the sake of the honor because he's the prince and he has to do the right thing because he's the Prince of Verona. So, you know, fundamentally they're good guys on both sides. And I think what happens in this kind of story is first the level of trust has to be achieved and then, and this is the key, I think, that people often overlook. In a real romance story, there's a point at which it's way beyond sexual attraction. It's way beyond even intellectual attraction. On top of that, there's a point where the two people simply decide to commit. They make a promise and they're going to keep it. And that changes everything. That ability to make the commitment and build the marriage instead of fighting it is the turning point in a romance novel and has to come from both sides. And in real life, it's the hardest thing to find. And in the romance novel, it makes for a great tranquil story. Yeah.

C (28:44)

This week's episode of Fated Mates is brought to you by Periwink Press, publishers of Lee Taylor's A Satchel of Richards.

A (28:54)

Does that mean what I think it means?

C (28:57)

It does, Sarah. Okay.

A (28:59)

Novelist Bridget Stanton's life needs a massive rewrite. She has a mortgage on her house. She has a gigantic dog who eats her out of house and home. And she knows she will never be able to quit her day job. Unfortunately, her day job quits her. She is suspended for teaching A Wrinkle in Time and she decides she is going to try for a book advanced. So she throws herself at the mercy of her brand new charming agent who reluctantly inherited her and he his advice is skip the Litvik and write steamy romance instead. And the problem is, has anybody, has he really met Bridget? Because Bridget is not a passionate sex person. She doesn't know anything about that. And he proposes a solution. Why don't you do a little bit of research, maybe head out there and find yourself a satchel of Richards. Enter Josh, a wild successful romance cover model with Hollywood screenwriting dreams. Josh has spent a lot of time giving vivid descriptions to numerous authors to navigate their spicy scenes. But Bridget needs a little more than sort of oral with an AU descriptions. She's gonna need a hands on approach. And as their research heats up, she offers him credit on the book. Something that her publisher is unwilling to give him. And she's got to choose. Is she going to take the book deal and betra Josh or is she going to risk it all for a real life love story with a real life co writer?

C (30:35)

Sounds like a fun workplace publishing romance, fake relationship and like also dealing with a big topic like book banning. So if you would like to check out a satchel of Richard's or carry one around in a bag, it is available. The book is available in print and in E. It is available in Canada at Indigo Ca and in the UK and internationally at Amazon. If your podcasting app supports it. You can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Periwink Press and Lee Taylor for sponsoring this week's episode. So you know, due diligence, right? Like one of the things that Sarah and I will do once we have a topic is like sort of like okay, what have I already read that I can talk about? Maybe books I haven't talked about before. What might I wanna read, right? And then like sort of like what's the landscape out there? Like you know, are people still writing this? What does it look like? And I downloaded a couple of contemporaries and I'm not gonna even mention the names because I couldn't. I found myself really unable to read them. And I'm gonna talk about why, which is so it's like, you know, so there's nothing wrong with these books, everybody. I'm not saying they were bad, I'm saying I feel sick inside, right? So like I really now in a time when, you know, women, you know, people in half the states cannot access abortion care, you know, there's threats against birth control. Reading a book about like I don't know, 25 year old, you know, two young people who have a one night stand, right? Like nobody has Any money, right? And then, you know, there's a pregnant, a surprise pregnancy. And I really struggle with, you know, so now they're gonna get married and have this baby. And I'm just. But without really even talking about like I feel like what I'm doing when I read these books and I'm not saying this is like the intention, I'm saying this is like me internally, I feel like I'm essentially like reading the romance book equivalent of like a trad wife TikTok, right? Because they never ever actually interrogate it. Interrogate like, you know, like, do I even want children? Am I in a position to care for them right now? Will we be good co parents? Do I have the money for it? Is there health insurance? Do I want this baby? And I feel can't and you know, or you know, oh, too bad we're in Texas and I guess I have to have the baby unless I'm willing to leave the state. And listen, I know romance is always like sort of glossing over a lot of that, but I feel like at a time when our rights are being compromised in state after state and you know, of course threaten, what they would love to do is make that in the whole country. I find books like this feel like I can't read them. This is a story that makes me sad and uncomfortable and devastated. Not like sort of like, yeah, these two crazy kids are gonna work it out on, you know, her. He's a, you know, 23 year old firefighter. Like, that was our parent, that was my parents. You know what I mean? This is not what I want for people. And so I find the classic shotgun weddings. She's pregnant, we have to get married. Really hard to read right now.

A (33:57)

Okay, so there is this sort of political piece of this, right? Which is like the world around us is the way that it is. And so it is difficult sometimes to read romance that is sort of. That feels like it's complicit in what's happening around us. What's interesting is that I think the books that came that, you know, you look back at the 70s and 80s, right, in contemporary and like those books were doing this too. Like I talk all the time about this, you know, early, early Sandra Brown, so early that she was writing as Aaron Sinclair and like it had, you know, it was. This is not a book that I necessarily would like recommend to new readers now, but like it did have this exact sort of structure. Right, but the difference is that it was state then, right? I think it worked in the 70s and 80s as a referendum on bodily autonomy, on sort of, you know, I think the book was having that conversation sort of subtextually. But also then the structure of those books, they were hard. There were sharp edges to the plot in those books. So we could believe that the push pull of, you know, that character, it is, you know, Roe exists. But like that character's not gonna choose abortion as a solution. Made sense because there were other plot and structure points at play. And I think this goes back to this sort of like, is this. What are we doing with. This is by nature a plot, a trope that has to have sharp edges to work, I think. And we're kind of afraid of that now. It feels as writers, many of us.

B (35:51)

There's a Rachel Grant book. Rachel Grant writes romantic suspense. In her book into the Storm. The hero and the heroine have had a one night stand way back when, and now they're trapped together. They meet again out of accidental circumstances. They're trapped together in a storm on. In a wild national park. And they're going to have to survive together. But what he doesn't know is that she's carrying his baby from that one night stand. And she makes it very clear that she's prepared, she wants the baby and she's quite prepared to raise it on her own. She'll take that responsibility. And he has to basically convince her that he wants to be the father in the real sense of that child and that they can rediscover whatever they found that first night. You know, that there's something there. There was more than just sexual attraction there. So she's not forced to carry the baby to term. She's made the decision to carry the baby and she is willing to do it without him. And I think that is how she finds her. That's how the character finds her autonomy and her agency. And he basically has to prove himself that he's gonna be a good father. She's not interested in it.

C (37:06)

Yeah. Now, I haven't read this book, but I think the other reason this would probably work for me without even knowing is like Rachel Grant writes characters that are like well into adulthood.

B (37:15)

Yes.

C (37:16)

Right. I mean, these are not. I mean, I think I wanna like be really clear like when these people are in their, like mid-20s, I just feel like that's like. Right. Like, you know, if you're like well established in your career and you know that you wanna be a parent and something you wanted, then those characters are kind of doing different work than I was 24 or whatever.

B (37:37)

That raises a Good question. Because I'm not as familiar with the rom com book as I should be, but I think of it as a softer story and more like two friends becoming friendly. And is that trope showing up at all in any interruption?

C (37:55)

Yeah, sure, but it's kind of what I describe. Not always, but some of them.

A (38:00)

And sometimes it's not. That's not the action. That's not the father. The. You know, the heroine is pregnant by another person. And then there's sort of an array. You know, there's an agreement that her friend will marry her. You know. You know, there are lots of other ways that sort of pregnancy comes into play in rom coms, but I do.

B (38:23)

What about Romantasy? Cause that's a young adult. Not that I know that's a young adult story. That's a coming of age story.

A (38:34)

So this is interesting. Say more about that, because I think you're right. And it does feel like Romantasy, even in adult romance has that sort of coming of age feel coming into your power.

B (38:47)

And it's. But it's very. But the emotions are very young. So in a sense they're more like the historicals were way back in the day.

C (38:59)

Well, and that's why, like, Like a recent. And this. It does not have a pregnancy plot at all. But like, I really liked Silver and Blood by Jessie Mihal because this was a woman who actually was closer to 30 when her powers manifested. And so it. It's not really at all like sort of a. A young adult book. She has a lot of, like, kind of wisdom. She knows herself and her body. And then like, all of a sudden, this magic appears for, like, a reason. And I really liked it. I was kind of like, I'm. I'm glad it's not just right.

B (39:25)

Like, well, it could be that that Romanesee is. Is evolving. I mean, we all know that genres don't stay static. They. They keep evolving and changing. And that could be where Romanasy is going because its audience is getting older.

C (39:38)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (39:41)

I also want to talk a little bit more about world. I. I think this is a good place for us to talk about the world building in these stories. Again, it's sort of. I always come back to conflict. I always come back to stakes. Like, I always come back to wanting. I, as a reader need to understand, like, why these two people are willing to do this, to agree to this thing. And I think that is because I cut my teeth, like, in the early days on these books. Like, you know, a prisoner of My desire, which is like a. Absolutely bananas, like, you know, a shotgun wedding wildness, but also, like. And I'm on the record, I mean, my. My bible for so long was Judith McNaught, right. Who I think does this exact trope probably better than. I mean, A Kingdom of Dreams is a remarkable example of how you can play this with. With the heroine actually having a tremendous amount of power without knowing that she has power. This is a. Anybody who ever wants to talk about. He falls first. Like the. The hero of that book is just gone for her. He makes a promise that he'll never hurt her family. She forces him into promising this. You said this, Jane, that there's, you know, you have to know who you can trust. There has to be a promise.

C (41:04)

Right.

A (41:04)

He promises knowing that her family is like the worst. Full of the worst human beings in the world. But he, you know, understands that she still feels loyal to them. Like, there are all these sort of moving parts. He abducts her from a nunnery, you know, and then forces her to marry him because for, you know, land reasons. And I think part of the reason why. Listen, I'm on this book is unmatched for me. Right. But I also think the reason why I love it is because there is never a moment where we think to ourselves, like, this is not how these people would act. This is certainly not how normal people would act, for sure. But it is not. This is a hundred percent how these people would act when put into this. Into this situation. And I think that's a few things. One, I think the medieval of it all gives us as readers, you know, freedom to believe that, like, these people are right, you know, somehow less civilized than we are. Not true. But, you know, we could sort of wave away our current issues and say, like, this is uncivilized behavior, but it's a different time. Right. And I think also there's, you know, sort of a plus character work going on here. But interestingly, I do think that when you pull this thread forward, I think all the time about what Sophie Jordan says, which is Mafia romance is just medieval romance. Like in an. In, you know, in some suits.

B (42:33)

Absolutely.

C (42:35)

Guns instead of swords. Right.

A (42:36)

When I think of the books that really land for me now with this kind of like arranged, forced, dangerous marriage between two people who, you know, and a terrifying dude usually. Yeah, it's mafia.

C (42:53)

I love it. Sorry, I'm garbage.

A (42:56)

Yeah, they're so fun because you can suspend all disbelief.

B (43:01)

Well, what's going for the Mafia story is what came out of the Godfather which is a sense of family first. Everything is about saving the family and building the power of the family. And that loyalty is. We all kind of want to feel that. We all want that feeling. If push comes to shove, my brother will have my back.

A (43:26)

It speaks to what you said, Jane, that family, that's. You can hang your hat as a reader on a character who's devoted to family, even if he's, you know, ripping fingernails out of people.

B (43:39)

Yeah, there's an honor there. There's a kind of honor. And we fundamentally, we crave that because, I mean, when I think about it, you don't ever learn the lessons of what honor and integrity and what it means to be a hero in the real world, where you learn them from fiction. Fiction. Fiction is what teaches us what honor is supposed to look like in fiction. You know, there's a right and the wrong. And the guy has to do the right thing. That's. And that's where we get our concept of honor. I think these days, the romance novel is very, very much built on male honor.

C (44:22)

Do you think that means women don't have honor in these books?

B (44:25)

No, I think the men have to prove themselves to the women because the woman is looking for her equal. They see the hero in each other, Jen. That's the magic. They see the hero in each other, and that's when they can make this kind of commitment that makes it more than business.

A (44:43)

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C (45:02)

Okay, so everybody, I don't know if you know this about me, but I really love a candle. So this is our second ad for Sotto Voce. And the first time around, I was like, I'm gonna order some of these. And I was delighted by them. And so was little romance, by the way, because he also loves a candle. So first of all, they smell. Terr ordered the jasmine one because I really like things that are jasmine. I like a jasmine candle. And then the other one I ordered was like, cabin fever. And that's one little romance like best. And he took it from me. Fine.

A (45:30)

There are a ton with tobacco flower, which all my heroes smell like.

C (45:34)

Yeah, of course. I mean, this is it. It's like, if you've ever been like, what does this smell like in a book? You can get one of these Candles. But the other thing about them is they are really beautiful. So they come in a glass. Glass holder. And like, it's sort of like the candle. I'm not very good at describing things is like elevated up above, like the bottom of the candle where the candle rests on, like your surface. And then it has like a little curved.

A (45:59)

Like those. Yeah, we like a curve.

C (46:02)

We like a curve. We like a curvy bottom.

A (46:05)

Like, so does all. So do all the heat arrival re listeners.

C (46:10)

Exactly. That's probably our listener. Listen, just consider naming that. It's Canada. It's a candle. I feel like it's all there. So this was. I. I was like a great product. I really love it. I'm excited to order some more.

A (46:22)

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C (47:15)

So, Sarah, do you read one of my. I feel like we should talk about some actual books. Sarah, you read. There's a mafia romance series I like, really am garbage for. I love it. And Sarah read one of them and was kind of like, have you read? And I was like, sarah, I mean.

A (47:30)

You had talked about them on the podcast. I think you've talked about at least.

C (47:33)

I don't think I've ever. Yeah, I don't know that I've ever talked about. Like, I read them in sort of like a fever dream kind of one of those things. And so I don't know if I ever actually read.

A (47:41)

Isn't that a joy when you find a new. I'm on, like, I'm reading the third one in this series right now.

B (47:48)

Sure.

C (47:48)

You're just like, let me just do this.

A (47:50)

I mean, this. Well, it was for research because we were doing an episode with Jane Ann Krentz. Jen, I had to know.

C (47:57)

It was research.

A (47:58)

It was research.

C (47:58)

It is research.

A (47:59)

Yeah, I read. I don't know how to pronounce it, but I think it's Neva Altaj is her name. And she has a series. The book that I started with is called Broken Whispers. It is, you know, thank God for, you know, the Internet telling me Broken Whispers, colon. An arranged marriage romance. I was like, well, obviously, this is it. And it's.

C (48:21)

It is.

A (48:21)

This is a sort of a really, really classic Mafia structure. Right? She's the daughter of the Italian, you know, capo. He is the one of the, you know, chief soldiers. I don't even know. I don't even know the name.

C (48:37)

Under Boss. Sarah.

A (48:39)

Excuse me. Underboss. I just slide. That's just. It's just, like, romance words. I don't know.

B (48:45)

Yeah.

A (48:46)

He is the underboss of the Russian Bratva. And they have to make an agreement because, you know, chaos has ensued in the book before. And the agreement is, is this the kind of capo of the Italian Mafia has this beautiful daughter who, by the way, was a prima ballerina. And the hero has been obsessed with her. Like, has literally been sneaking. It begins. This book begins, Jane, with the hero sneaking into the ballet every day. He has nothing else to do. He's like an enforcer for the Russian Brava. He has no other plans from the hour of 7 to 9pm well, yeah.

C (49:26)

Cause all the bad stuff happens after midnight. He's like, I just gotta kill some time until I go do crimes that starting at 11:30.

A (49:33)

Starting with culture. So he sneaks into the ballet every day to, like, obsessively watch this woman. And you think this is gonna be a stalker romance. And then chapter one, they're forced to marry. And it's just very lucky for him.

C (49:50)

Well, it's kind of, isn't it, that he's there? You know, he's like, somebody has to marry, you know, this one. And he's like, I guess I'll do it. It's great. It's terrific.

A (50:01)

And it's char. It's so funny because it's, like, very. So. I mean, listen, all I want from romance in 2026 is just these sort of, like, outsized plots. Like.

B (50:12)

Yeah.

A (50:12)

I just want it to feel like there are psychic powers in this town because of a magic fog. Like there are, you know, or a government fog. I want there to be something happening that feels like there's, you know, these are big sort of bad, maybe people who are, you know, crawling through the muck to find their honor. And they're just lucky enough to, like, along the way, find a person who makes them better for it. And, like, I feel. I feel like when you get to the core that. The deep DNA of romance. That's what it should be in my head. And this book and the ensuing ones, which are each one just, like, wilder than the next. They're deeply sexy. I mean, these are borderline filthy. And, I mean, I'm not mad about it. And every one of these just feels like the stakes are.

C (51:12)

Yeah, yeah.

A (51:13)

The stakes are everyone's gonna die if these two don't marry. And then when they end up in the same house together, they don't know each other. And she. I mean, the added layer of this broken Whispers book is that she doesn't. She doesn't speak. She was in a terrible accident, you know, caused by her father, and she has a problem with her vocal cords where, like, if she speaks, it actually hurts. And so she speaks sign language. And of course, it turns out that, like, he's known sign language all along. Like, I mean, it's bananas, but also, it's exactly what I want. You know, I'm just, like, eating these books like candy. Because it feels to me like ultimately the test of the arranged marriage, slash forced marriage, shotgun wedding is ultimately the money in that book is in the scene where we see them choose each other over family. Right. Like, there is. You know, I don't even know who said this. I was at some, you know, rwa, and I took a class. You know, I went to one of the sessions, and somebody said, like, there has to be the thing that they are unwilling to sacrifice. And then ultimately they have to be willing to sacrifice that thing for each other, for love. And I think in this situation, that sort of forced marriage, whatever the catalyst is for these two people to get together has to ultimately be the thing that they are willing to pass over for husband, wife, partner.

B (52:59)

Yeah. Cleave to each other.

A (53:01)

And in Mafia, that works really well.

B (53:04)

At the end of a romance novel, there's always the foundation of a new family. It's kind of always. If there's. Even if there's no baby on the horizon, or even if it's two guys or two women, there's a family that has been formed because of the commitment that these two people are willing to make. But I also see in a lot of. I think what we call Rom com is the trope of found family. When the core family isn't really meant for you. You just got bored into the wrong one. But you find your people, you find the family. And that found family thing, I think is coming is another version of that. That ending, that establishing a community. But it Softens the. It kind of softens the romance because it's not. Now they've got people around them, you know, and so they're no longer on their own against the world. But maybe that's the ending. That's the way it's supposed to end.

C (54:08)

Yeah. I have, like, an interesting one that I think does that in a. Like a. A way I wasn't really necessarily expecting. So it's a historical. Which, again, I think, like shotgun weddings and sort of like forced marriages, like, really live in certain places. A lot easier. Right? It's a lot easier to get there. And this one is the Duke's Shotgun Wedding. Thank you for giving it that title, Stacy Reid. And the thing that I. There's a. It's actually like a novella. So it's also, like, really tight, which I like. It's just maybe like, I was like, sort of reading it, and I was like, wait, how am I halfway through this book? Or I ready. It's only like 120 pages. So in this one, what happens is Jocelyn shows up with a pistol or a Derringer or whatever. I guess it's the same thing in the office of Sebastian. He's a duke, right? And she basically says, your brother has compromised me, and I need you to force him to marry me because otherwise I'm in trouble. Right? And he's like, well, you know, how do I know you're not just in here lying to me, you know, brandishing your weapon? And she kind of throws this, like, locket at him, and she's like, well, he gave me this as, like, a sign that he was really committed to me. And we see Sebastian sort of like, recognize this thing, and I think, like, this is. It's a really great example of kind of like, we know why she's in it, but, like, why is he in it? So it turns out that she is a lady, but her father's, you know, the estate's falling down. She has no dowry, but they're a bunch of younger siblings. And she's like, if I don't get married to somebody with money, I, like, I can't, you know, take care of my siblings. We can't rebuild the house like my dad's. He's not like a deadbeat, but he's not, you know, he's not, like a terrible person, but he's, you know, dumb and gambled or whatever. Just can't keep it together. So Sebastian is like, well, I'm really sad to tell you this bad news, but Anthony, the brother, just Went to Gretna Green and married somebody else. And she is like, you know, and he sees, like, her real devastation on her face. Like, realizes, like, she really did think she was gonna make this work. And then he's like, but I will marry you now. Meanwhile, you're like, wait, why? Why is he doing this? Right? Like, what is his reason for. He's a duke. He could marry anybody. Well, it turns out that he. And so what's happening is, like, he. His family of origin is sort of a wreck. Like, he has a brother and a younger sister. But he is kind of fairly recently discovered that his. Or realized, like, his mother had enough, had essentially had a lover for her entire marriage. And his brother and sister, although he loves them, aren't Were the children of this other man. But, you know, they were married. So his father, like, sort of by name. And so he feels like, I have to have an heir. Not only does Anthony not want this if I die, but, like, it really, you know, he's not really part of the family. And he's, you know, furious at his mom. And so then, like, Jocelyn come and, you know, Jocelyn comes in. There's all these really great details, right? He's read part of his parents. His mother's, like, diaries. And so he knows, like, what's going on. He actually saw her with her lover as a child and, like, never forgave her. So he's like. But he, like, rips out the wall between the duke's and the duchess's bedroom because he's like, I don't want this coldness between them.

A (57:30)

I love rips down a wall, by the way. Yes. That is a microtrope that will win me every time.

C (57:34)

Right? And. And so he's like. So Jocelyn's kind of like, this seems like a big room. Where's my room? And he's like, no, where will be. There's our room. Right? But then, of course, he's really cold to her because he's a dummy. And she has to figure out why. Like, right. She has to figure out, like, what is going on. And so, of course, anybody, you know, I'm not gonna give you the particulars, but by the end, she's kind of figured out how to restore his family to him, right? Something he didn't think was possible and something he didn't think he wanted. And so, like, right. She is now the glue that can somehow, like, like, put all this back together again. Because as an outsider, right, to the family, she can kind of be like, it's your mother. What the fuck is wrong with you? And, you know. And he's like, but no, I've been hating her my entire life. And she's like, oh, such a man. So I. But it was, you know, and I really found myself thinking like this, to me, is very skilled. Like. Right. Like, you're really. But I think the other thing about a shotgun wedding or like, some kind of forced marriage at the beginning is, is it really, literally starts everything with a bang. Right. Like, everything is moving at such a velocity that you can pack in everything. I just told you in such a short period of time and still really believe that, you know, Sebastian and Jocelyn have really fallen in love.

A (58:49)

Right.

C (58:50)

So, yeah, it was great. It's called the Duke Shotgun Wedding.

B (58:54)

Well, maybe it's the ultimate story of romantic suspense.

C (58:57)

Yeah. Right.

B (58:59)

Without the murder. Yeah.

C (59:00)

Yeah.

A (59:01)

Well, I mean, it's like you said from the beginning, it's these two people ultimately have to be together against the outside.

B (59:10)

Yeah. And the reason we love the historical so much is because you can pit these conflicts and these themes in larger than life terms. It gets harder in the contemporary to get the. That go big feeling, you know, and that's why I lean on the psychic element. That's where I'm getting mine from.

A (59:31)

Yeah. I mean, this is the. We've said this so many times about. About the challenge with. With contemporary is, is that if you make it too realistic, Right. If you lean too hard on the world, the way that we all live in it, then there is no reason for two people who are enemies, say, to have anything to do with each other.

C (59:58)

Right. Oh, because we had a one night standing or pregnant, let's get married.

A (60:01)

No, that's crazy.

C (60:02)

You don't have to do that.

A (60:04)

I mean, I also. But I also think that that's.

C (60:06)

I do.

A (60:07)

For what it's worth, like, I do think that that is one of the few scenarios where, like, at least there's something stakesy there. Right? Like, I mean, whatever that may be, it doesn't work for me, but I can see why it would work for a lot of people. But I think there's, you know, this is the biggest challenge is, like, once you get into, you know, the dating apps or, like, why didn't you just ghost that guy? Like, he seemed terrible. That one time you talked versus, you know, you think about, here we are, I've been kidnapped from my, you know, warm house in London, and we are careening toward Gretna Green. Like, I'm screwed.

B (60:49)

I'm gonna have to make this work because I'm trapped in it.

C (60:51)

Yeah.

B (60:51)

Because. Because part of that has to do with the, the sense of what constituted a good reputation. And, and today, you know, for better or for worse, the fact that we can have sexual race relationships without, without risking the reputation of either party. But that gets into murky territory because we've got a long history of having difficulties with that whole scenario. We're not really free to have free sex. There's always a price to pay and somebody always gets hurt. There's no such thing as just walking away. I don't think for both parties that kind of relate. There's too much power, psychic power in sex. And it's just not. It's not like having a good meal and walking away after a good meal. So it'll always hold a lot of energy for writers. It's.

A (62:04)

This week's episode of Fated Mates is sponsored by the Romantasy Letters. Breathtaking romantic fantasy by mail. This is cool.

C (62:12)

Yeah, this is actually really fun. I mean, everybody loves getting mail, holding stuff in your hands and just like, how often does that happen anymore? So this is just like a really fun way to like read and like experience a story. And in this case, A Treaty of Hearts is the story that is available now. In a realm where kingdoms clash and magic bends loyalty, two sworn enemies must strike a bargain sealed not in ink, but blood and desire. Their fragile truce could save their people or shatter their hearts forever. And so what happens is, is you sign up for this, you get two letters in the mail every month. And these also come with like keepsakes and other engaging items that take you deeper into the story and the universe. So for example, stickers, codices, journal entries, coded messages. So you're really just like, like reading the story but also experiencing it in such a fun way.

A (63:07)

What a cool thing. Well, if you love the idea of receiving these letters about a mortal king and a Fae Star Weaver bound by a blood treaty, then you are gonna love Romantasy Letters. You can get it right now@romantasyletters.com and use the code Fated for 20% off a one year subscription to the letters. This could be a great, great gift for you, a reader, or for the Romantasy lover in your Life. Again, it's RomantasyLetters.com use the code faded for 20% off your year subscription. Thanks to RomantasyLetters.com for sponsoring this week's episode. I mean, the other way that we see it work in contemporaries and again in, you know, in the deft hand of, of some of the best Category writers out there right now is romance law. Right? Which is our father died and he left a caveat in his will that we must be married within such and such time. You know, and again. But I do think that the trick to making that work is that you have to sort of refract the world through a. You just have to turn the lens slightly so that we believe that, like, you know, that's not how law works in real life, but it is how law works in romance. And I think that I feel. You know, Jane, I say this a lot on the podcast, so I apologize. I know I'm repeating myself for listeners, but I do feel so strongly that, like, one of the things that we are losing in romance right now is that sort of refraction into love. Like, the romance universe. We have our world and then there's, like, romance world. And I think this obviously, like, being kidnapped and forced into marriage is not a. I don't want that for anyone listening.

B (65:12)

I just want to read it.

C (65:13)

Yeah, well, and I think that's, like, back to my whole, like, sometimes if you're playing it too straight down the middle, then I can't help but live in this world.

A (65:22)

Right. Sorry. That's where you, Jen, are. Like, this doesn't work.

C (65:26)

Yeah. Like, now I actually have real thoughts about, like, you know, I've raised a child. You will never have money again. Right. You know what I mean? And I think that is why one of the. And I know I like, just talked about, like, but, like, an example of this is Chelsea Cameron has a book called Marriage of Unconvenience. And it's two women who are, like, basically, like, kind of were best friends when they were kids, right? So Lauren Lowe is one of them. And she, like, her life sucks. She needs money, right? She's fucking broke everybody, right? She, you know, it says, like, you know, it's been a while since I've read this. Like, right. Like, her car's broken down and the rent due. Like, right. Like, all the things are just, like.

A (66:11)

Staring her in the face.

C (66:12)

And then Kara, who is her, like, childhood bestie, has. Has. Comes along. And the thing is, is, like, low. Has. There's a huge amount of money she can access from her grandmother's will, but she has to be married. And so, you know, Cara comes along and Kara just wants to go to grad school, and Lo is kind of like, oh, wait, I've got a great idea. Let's get married. And I can get Granny's money and I can, like, pay all my bills and I can, like, as a. As part of the deal.

A (66:43)

Right.

C (66:44)

I can, like, you know, send you to grad school. Like, it's a lot of money. And of course, like, they're just like. It's just fake marriage. We're friends. And of course, like, they fall in love. It's real love. Right. But I do think, like, mar. I feel like one of the ways we see it now that does feel real, although it's not like someone pressuring them. It's the world.

A (67:04)

I mean, it's a social convenience.

C (67:05)

Right, Right. Is, you know, it's. We need health insurance. It's romance law. There's a will. Right.

A (67:11)

I mean, it does feel a little bit like marriage. Forced marriage is a. It's just. It feels like it has to be taking direct aim at the patriarchy, capital P, in some way. Like, I was looking for queer romances that do forced marriage, for example. Cause I always sort of am looking for, like, how.

C (67:32)

How do.

A (67:33)

How do all different, you know, writers think about this? And I do think, like, it works in Hat. Romance. Romance better because. Or, I mean, I don't know. I couldn't find one. So if you're out there and you have one, I would love. Please let us know because I would love to read it. I couldn't find one, so I can't say it works better. But I think it is instinctively because these romances are about power. Like you said, Jane, this instinctively feels like there has to be sort of a domineering man on page. Right. To represent all the ways that we are forced to do things that are not fun in the world.

B (68:22)

Well, the fact that people like Darcy Burke, for example, has a recent book out because the Baron broods. I love the alliteration.

C (68:33)

Amazing.

B (68:35)

But it's a classic. But it's a classic. Compromised.

A (68:39)

Yeah.

B (68:40)

Married for reasons. Forced into, you know, a marriage because she's been compromised. Those plots are not available to us. And I think in the modern world.

A (68:50)

No.

B (68:50)

And so I think. I think a lot of what we're looking for is other ways to get at the conflict that we're trying to write about and that still is out there, the conflict between men and women.

A (69:03)

Yeah, I think that's true.

B (69:05)

And therefore, we're looking for angles that are a forced marriage story. And as you said, it's harder to do it with romance law and everything. The inheritance thing is one of the.

A (69:17)

It's a classic.

B (69:19)

Yeah, of course. And that's actually always been true anyway. I mean, that's an old one, but I would like to ask, how much of this do you think comes out of the Gothic, which I consider like, the foundational book of romantic suspense, the woman in jeopardy kind of story and who can she trust? And the confines of the house, which. The claustrophobic element, which is what you were talking about, Sarah, you're forced into this situation. You can't just walk away. You're trapped. There's no way to call for the police or anything like that. You know, you have to deal with the conflict within the house, and you're.

A (70:01)

In there with the monster. It's you and the monster.

C (70:04)

Right.

A (70:05)

Or at least the representation of the monster. Right. Like, you didn't pick this man.

C (70:11)

Well, I do think that Mafia, to me, has those. I mean, like, the medieval, the gothic, like, that sense that. Yeah. Like. Like, once you. Yeah, yeah.

A (70:22)

And you have to be brave.

C (70:23)

Yeah. And once.

A (70:25)

We don't want a wet noodle in there with him. No.

C (70:27)

And I think it's really interesting because there's a lot of Mafia romances where, like, she's just like, a mafia princess and has no choice. And I don't like those as much as the ones who, like, sort of, like, fight. Like. Right. Like, fight it off. And it's funny because you were talking about that. The Naval Altage series, but, like, the fifth one in that series. She is from her family, Chicago Mafia, and she wants to be a nurse. She's like, I don't want this life. She wants to be a nurse. And she has an opportunity to do an internship at a hospital in New York. But the New York Mafia guy is basically no one from other mafia. That's how it works. Will be in New York or. And he, like, will literally shop people up in body bags and send it back. I told you no. And he finds her in his territory, but he becomes obsessed with her. And instead of. Right. He's basically like, you have to marry me. And. But he is, like, the monster. Like, he is the most monstrous mafia man of all. But, of course, all he is is, like, obsessed with her, you know, And. And I think that they're right. And I think there's a way in which. Which, like, it really, like, worked for me. But, like. Yeah. Like, she finds him to be, you know, sort of, like, terrify. Like, she was beautiful and attractive. Like, they were just flirting. And then once she figured out who she is, who he is, she's like, wait, what? I don't want this.

A (71:55)

I don't want this.

C (71:56)

I want. I wanted to run away from the house in the Nightgown. Right. In Chicago. And I did. And then I just get caught by another house.

A (72:04)

Yeah.

B (72:05)

Yeah, well. And I think women identify with that.

A (72:10)

Yeah.

B (72:10)

Because sooner or later, it all comes down to the house.

A (72:15)

I think that you're hitting on something, though, Jen. The part of the reason why that. So that reminded me of Mafia Virgin by Millifanelli. Who, Jane, if you don't know this, Millifanelli is the pen name of Joanna Shoup, who writes Gilded Age romances, and Millifanelli is her mafia pen name, her mafia writing pen name. So a little bit of a Jane Ann Krentz, you know, also. Also in your world. And she. Mafia Virgin has this great scenario where. So Emma, it's, you know, late in the. I don't know, it's number four or five in the. In the series. Emma is the sister. She has seen her sisters be sort of married off, partnered off, as in bargaining with a bargaining structure between her father and, you know, other, you know, powerful men. And she is like, I want to be a doctor. Like, I want to. My dream has always been to get out. I want to go. I want to go to medical school. Like, I want to do something that is different. And the reason why I'm sort of thinking about this, Jen, obviously, besides the medical piece, is there's something here where the motivation for her to get out is deeply like her plans for her life as a save. As a. To save people, to protect people, to do no harm.

C (73:34)

Right.

A (73:35)

Runs totally antithetical to the mafia.

C (73:39)

Yeah.

A (73:39)

And so she is kind of swept up, forced into marriage with Giacomo.

C (73:45)

Right.

A (73:45)

Who is a kind of. What did you say? No, Enforcer. I'm gonna go with enforcer. Sure. And for the. For the Italian.

C (73:53)

There are two kinds of enforcers in Rome. Romance, hockey, and mafia. This just makes sense, everyone.

A (73:59)

The edging up on heated rivalry is actually mafia. We'll get there.

C (74:04)

The NHL is Mafia. Exactly. So.

A (74:07)

But what's interesting with this one. And I mean, this is where, like, literally, it. It's like Joanna tapped directly into my ID with this book because they are forced to marry, and then they are sent. I mean, all mafia is medieval, right. Into a room to, like, consummate the marriage. And they want to see blood on the sheets. Jane. And she's like, What? It is 20, 24. I am not doing this medieval shit. And he's like, fine. So he punches the wall to make his knuckles bleed and then wipes his hand on the sh. Sheets and sends them out. And I was like, he's the greatest. I don't care. I don't care that he tortures people for a living. He's amazing, right? A. But what's interesting about this book is, like, the. Why can't they be together right now? Which is, like, my core question mark, right as I'm writing every scene. Why can't they be together right now? They can't be together because they are. Their goals, their identities, their passions. Like. Like everything they expect and want and believe in are deeply. He is a punisher. He kills people for a living. He tortures people. And she wants to be a doctor. And, like, how is this going to work out?

B (75:36)

Does it.

C (75:37)

Sureness and romance.

A (75:38)

Yeah, it does. But that's. That's the magic of it is this sort of. That's what I want. I want these. I want this. I think the cornerstone of the arranged marriage, the forced marriage, has to be, like, these two people cannot function together, and now they are forced to. You and me against the world.

B (76:03)

Yeah, I think. I think that's it. That's. And that's. There's just. And then. And we identify with it as readers because on some level, level, that's real life. We just don't see it as in stark terms. But in the books, we see it in stark terms. But in real life, you're putting two people together who probably have very little in common, including their sex. They're not even the same sex in some cases, at least if you get two women or two men, maybe there's more in common there. But you're asking two beings that are very, very fundamentally different in so many ways to find the compromise that can let them build the family.

C (76:48)

Yeah. And I think, like, one of the things that, like, romance does really well, and it was, like, it made me.

A (76:52)

It was.

C (76:53)

When you were saying this, it made me think of it. Sarah is like, often the way that, like, romance shows it, that is, I think, like a reflection of real life. It's just like, often at, like, 7,000 is like. It's like the cultural differences, right. Like, you know, in your regular real life, it's like, you know, whether or not you put marshmallows. I was on the sweet potato casserole at Thanksgiving, and, like, now It's. You're going 79 rounds over something that, like, doesn't matter, but, like, the cultural differences that are, like, come to bear in these books. Right. So there's one I read by Ruby Dixon, which was. It's great. It's called the King's Spinster Bride. And in this book, okay, so like it starts off with an epilogue where she is like a 16 year old princess and he is an 8 year old boy, like a king from another. He's going to be a prince from another country. And she essentially protects him. And even at 8, he's like, don't worry, I'm not gonna forget about this. And then we pick up however many years later where he's 24 and she's almost 33 and she. And like we find out she was like, you know, in the epilogue, her father has been killed, so she's the queen now. And she like, is like, I'm gonna protect this boy. Like, we're not gonna kill this innocent child. And that's when he's like, don't worry, I got you. And we find out later that he in to his father like his father like a couple hours later essentially invades and is like ready to kill her. And he's like, no, you can't, because she saved me. So she gets sent off, everyone to the nunnery. Okay, love it now. And she's like, all right, everyone's gonna forget about me. I'm just gonna like live here, you know, like, it's not my kingdom anymore. And I'm just gonna hope that she's basically like, I can either live out my days here, but probably what's gonna happen is someone's gonna remember I hearing and come try and come to kill me. Well, turns out Giacomo, not Giacomo, that's not his name.

A (78:41)

I'm like, that's not his name.

C (78:43)

That's Melafinelli Matthiar comes along, right? He's now 24, she's 33. And he has been told, you know, basically like, you know, people are unhappy. Kill her. And then. And he's like, I've got a better idea. Why don't I marry her? And she. And of course he's like super hot. She's like, I'm too old for you now. And it turns out that like, basically the way he's going to prove that he's worthy of her is to make her do like sort of like there's their wedding ceremonies, right? And for her it's like we have to ride through and carry the bands and you have to like throw coins at people to show that you are like worthy of me. And his are a lot more sexy now, right? But I found myself really thinking like, what this really is, is despite like the like really super over the top nature of it, right? Like is it's just like, here are My cultural customs here are yours. In order for us to happily marry, I have to be willing to do the ones that are important to you and your people, and you have to be willing to do the ones that are important to me. And I found myself thinking, even though it was super crazy, I mean, he and his people are called Cyclops because once you get old enough, you have to blind yourself in a fucking eye to prove what a good soldier you can be. You don't need two eyes to be a good soldier. So when I tell you this is over the top, but at its core, I was like, this is about marriage ceremonies, right? This is about, like, sort of cultural. Like a cultural competency. Like, you have to do this, and I have to do this. And this is how we proved to everybody that even though you don't have an eye and I've been a spinster in a nunnery, we can make it all work out. And it was great. And it was great, everybody. I had a nice time reading.

B (80:32)

Which totally goes to prove, I think, that if you. If you're looking for a genre that pushes the boundaries, you can't beat romance. Correct?

A (80:42)

Correct. You heard it here first. Jane Ann Krentz said it, so it must be true.

B (80:48)

I don't see that inventiveness in mystery or even in fantasy. I've always said, you know, that you can. You can experiment in romance that you can't do in other genres and find an audience. Yeah.

A (81:06)

Yeah. Jane, have you done this trope?

B (81:11)

Well, Ravished was a certain version of that. Ravish is the one where she's. Her main interest in life is little, what, bones and, you know, fossils. Yeah. And he's. He's the. The wounded hero from the past who's been totally misunderstood, and they wind up in the cave together. I remember compromised. And he feels, you know, he's gonna marry her. And she's. She really doesn't care, because by now she. She's old enough that she can live out her life unmarried. But the family pressure is such that they're gonna have to.

A (81:53)

That is, by the way, my favorite kind of heroine, where the hero is losing his mind. He's like, we must marry. What of your reputation? And she's like, dummy, I don't care.

B (82:03)

I don't care anymore. Yet.

C (82:04)

Yeah, that one is great. Yeah, I do love it. It's funny. Cause it's, like, such a nice twist on the Shotgun Wedding where he's like, yes, but my honor. And she's like, yes, but what? I don't care. Yeah, right.

A (82:18)

Who cares about your honor?

C (82:19)

You know, where it's like, you have to get on board with the fact.

A (82:22)

That like, no one was in that cave with us.

C (82:24)

Nobody knows. I know. Yes. Yeah.

A (82:29)

So.

B (82:30)

So the. So the compromised married. The comp. The wedding for reasons of. Of community, you know, that they have to live in that community. And this is what. This is one of the requirements under these circumstances. You will have to get married if you live in this community. And what are you going to do? Exile yourself? You can't. I mean, there's no place to go really, to live alone. And why would you. But like I said, I find myself leaning on the emotions of that kind of situation when I write romantic suspense.

A (83:06)

Right?

B (83:07)

Because these are two people who, who can't trust anybody else. They're going to have to trust each other to survive.

A (83:13)

Right? You and me against the world.

B (83:16)

That's the essence of the shotgun marriage. You're stuck with it. And leave us not forget it is not that old a realism, a reality. In America, we invented the term shotgun marriage for a reason. And I remember back in high school, school, I'm that old. But it's not that long ago, people, if you got pregnant, you got married.

C (83:46)

Well, and that's why I was saying, like, I. That's why I was like, I needed to be in. In romance reality, I need everything shifted a little because if it's too. And listen, plenty of people get pregnant and get married and end up in happy marriages. Of course, I'm not saying that that cannot exist in the real world, but the truth is plenty of women in those scenarios are desperately unhappy and are trapped, right? Trapped by. This man has all the money and this man has all the power and all I have is the kids. And you know, those are. It's very hard for me to read those books as like a happily ever after, because I know, you know, it's just like if you don't have like, you know, the power cannot all be in one corner at the end of a good romance. That power has to be diffuse and shared and it has to be like, that's a really big part of it. And so, you know, there are certain circumstances under which like, just like me for my life find like, there's a certain set of scenarios where I'm like, duh, is gonna be my experience, not like, aww, right. And I don't know what it says about me that like, I'm far more willing to be like, oh, look, Mylene is happy in her marriage to the mafia king of New York work. Of course she is. Right. Of course she is. Right then, like regular Katie living in small town Wyoming, who got knocked up by the firefighter. Like, Katie, you're in real trouble, Myleene. She's going to be fine. And I know that makes no sense, everybody. I own that. I do, I do. I love it. I love it. I think you've got a plot there, Katie. You're in real trouble, Katie. You need a bank account of your own.

B (85:33)

Yeah. Get the heck out of.

C (85:36)

Katie. The Walmart in the next town carries condoms, you know.

B (85:43)

Well, and actually, that is, you just hit on the actual reason why it's very hard to make. To make the unexpected pregnancy flies because it does infer a lack of responsibility.

A (85:57)

And that is tricky for heroin. Right. That is tricky to sell.

B (86:01)

It's tricky for a hero to ignore.

A (86:05)

Well, that's why. And this, this is sort of. This is a different episode, but that's why the secret baby is basically the only way you can really sell that to a certain segment of romance readers. Because if he didn't know and he didn't take responsibility, that is the only way we can forgive it.

B (86:27)

Yeah, he didn't know. Yeah. No, that's. It's tricky to make that plot fly today. There's no question about it.

A (86:34)

Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, I think if you want to, you can do it. It's just. It's you.

B (86:41)

I will tell you that. You know, the reason condoms started showing up in romance novels, it was not because of responsibility. It was all to do with a. That changed the landscape of the romance novel in a major way.

A (86:56)

We had Jane, as we had Elda Minger on. I don't know if you remember Elda, but she wrote. She wrote category romances and she was writing for Vivian Stevens at Harlequin and she asked to put a condom on page. And we believe that she is the first person to have done. And she came on and she did a trailblazer interview with us that I'll send you a link to and we'll put it in Shownotes everyone. But that story is a really fascinating one and it's one that I think you'd be interested in and you would definitely. I mean, she said it too there, you know, aids plus just an awareness of pregnancy as a life ender for a lot of girls.

C (87:43)

Right. And that, you know, she talked about, like, you couldn't go. You couldn't go into and ask for condoms. And they would say, the pharmacist would say, like, are you Married, Right. Where's your husband? And so I think this is, you know, and I. I think I spent a lot of time in my life thinking, like, we had gotten past that, and I think we're. Clearly some of you have not, and you're doing it wrong. Everybody, that's fine. Talking to the Met out there.

A (88:09)

Not. Not you listeners. We love our listeners.

C (88:12)

Of course, you all know what we're talking about. Of course they know what I'm talking about. So, yeah, it is.

B (88:16)

It's.

C (88:16)

I think that that is really interesting in that way. I think these stories will continue to be a part of romance as long as this continues to be a part of, like, our society. Right. And that's always what romance is doing and what it does best.

A (88:36)

Well, we are almost at the end of our time, but I do want to say that, Jane, we would love.

C (88:40)

To have you back to talk about.

A (88:41)

Revenge, because you said that at the beginning, and then we just left that lying on the table. And it is my favorite, so we should do that sometime. But it is always a joy to have you. You always say something that I end up writing down in a fury, which is this time it was. We don't learn about honor from real life. We learn about it from fiction, which feels woof, especially these days. But thank you. And okay. The new book is called the Shop.

C (89:17)

The Shop on Hidden Lane.

B (89:18)

Thank you. The Shop on Hidden Lane with a dog.

C (89:23)

There's a dog. Yes.

A (89:25)

The Shop on Hidden Lane with a dog.

C (89:28)

I believe that's the subtitle. Yes.

A (89:30)

Parentheses, with the subject. It's the colon. It's what comes after the colon on Amazon. It's out right now wherever people get their books. And what else is coming? I know. You're so prolific. What else do you have coming this year, Jane?

B (89:47)

I have another Jane Castle coming up in May called Enter the Nightmare.

C (89:52)

Ooh, that's good.

A (89:54)

That's a good one.

B (89:55)

It's going for the gossip vibe.

A (89:57)

Yeah. I love it. I want all. I want somebody to bring back, like, women in nightgowns running away from houses for covers.

C (90:06)

They could be probably running. Maybe they could be running away from, like, a corporation.

B (90:14)

Another plot from Jen we're gonna start writing down Exactly.

C (90:18)

She's, like, running through midtown away from. Away from a high rise headquarters.

B (90:25)

We can make that fly, I'm sure.

A (90:29)

And where can people learn more, find you, talk to you? Enjoy your company online.

B (90:35)

I'm on Facebook, Janeanncrintz.com for the website and some IG Instagram.

A (90:46)

Great.

B (90:47)

I gave up on TikTok. I. Oh, oh, I took the class. Failed.

C (90:51)

That's simply not our business.

A (90:53)

Listen, that feels. Not for me either. So. Yeah, we don't do that. So, everybody, you can find links to all of Jane's social media and Jane's website and Jane's books in show notes. As always, Jane, thank you so much for joining us. This is always. Thank you so much.

B (91:11)

I love these conversations. These are always a lot of fun.

A (91:14)

I hope you're leaving with lots of ideas for, you know, new mafia romance from J.

B (91:20)

Except I'm good with that. Except for the fingernail pulling part.

A (91:25)

I know there's always that one, one scene in the book where he does, in fact torture a person. And I'm always like, why? Why are we doing this? Yeah, but, you know, because in medieval.

C (91:35)

They had to go out onto the battlefield with their sword. Sarah.

A (91:38)

It's true.

B (91:39)

They did.

A (91:41)

Anyway, everyone, I'm Sarah McLean Plane. I'm here with my friends Jen Prokop and Jane and Krentz. We are fated mates. You can find us every Wednesday@fatedmates.net and wherever you get your podcasts. Also@fatedmates.net if you hit the show notes button, you'll see a list of all the books that we talked about today and all the books we talk about every week, along with a list of Jane's books, Jane's pen names. Maybe we'll get a list of her lifetime achievement awards. We'll throw that in there too. And you can also find us online to tell us more about your favorite forced marriage arranged marriage books. We are at Fatedmates pod on Instagram and on threads and we are on blue sky@as fatedmates.net if you want to spend more time talking about romance novels the way we talk about romance novels today, you can join our Patreon, which is@patreon.com fatedmates that gives you access to one extra episode every month. And the discord we're about. I don't know. A couple thousand people are talking about romance novels all the time. It's fast and furious over there and very fun. Thanks, everyone. Take care of yourselves and each other. Sa.