S08.24: Sincerely, Your Inconvenient Wife by Julia Wolf

Summary

Fated Mates S08.24: Sincerely, Your Inconvenient Wife by Julia Wolf

Episode Date: March 4, 2026
Hosts: Sarah MacLean and Jennifer Prokop

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Episode Overview

In this lively episode, Sarah MacLean and Jennifer Prokop do a deep dive into Julia Wolf's contemporary romance Sincerely, Your Inconvenient Wife—the second in Wolf’s interconnected series about three best friends (plus one’s brother) who fall in love over the course of several books. With warmth and humor, the hosts break down the intricacies of this marriage-of-convenience story, examining tropes, character arcs, family dynamics, and the satisfying conventions of modern romance. As always, Sarah and Jen pepper the discussion with personal anecdotes, literary analysis, and a keen focus on why this book just works.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction & Why Julia Wolf?

• Personal Reading Journeys:
  • Sarah shares how she fell down the Julia Wolf rabbit hole around New Year’s after reading P.S. You’re Intolerable (12:00) and then devoured the whole series.
  • Jennifer branched into Wolf’s rockstar romances, noting Wolf’s strength in transforming what might be “kink” setups into genuinely thoughtful romance narratives.
• Wolf's Craft:
  • Wolf is praised for making "straight down the middle contemporary romances" that weave in more adventurous elements (like lactation kink) with casual, loving authenticity.

"If you are like, okay, I like these books as kink. Now, I would like to see these books as a romance. I think she does a good job picking up those threads."
—Jen (14:40)

2. Series Structure & Characters

• Series Layout:
  • Four books follow a trio of guy best friends (plus one's brother).
  • Connections through friends, siblings, and a constantly expanding, interconnected friend group.
• Main Protagonists for This Book:
  • Saoirse: Life-of-the-party, never-commits Sagittarius, temp worker, struggles to settle, deeply caring but hides her vulnerability behind whimsy.
  • Luca: Young, reluctant CEO of Rossi Motors, seen as a bit of a playboy, pushed into taking over the family company after his father's heart attack. Committed to family but self-doubting.
• Inciting Incident:
  • Saoirse and Luca nearly hook up at a party (he knows her as Sasha), instant attraction, but the moment passes (29:04).

3. Set-Up: The Marriage of Convenience

• Motivations:
  • Luca needs respectability for the company’s board and investors (his sister even provides a dossier of "suitable women" for him to date for appearances).
  • Saoirse needs an escape from her overbearing, politically ambitious mother (California state senator).
• Deal Terms (discussed charmingly over email):
  • Two years of marriage, she gets to move in (with her own room), he must attend the family confrontation, and she demands a cat.
• Email Negotiation as Narrative Device:
  • The awkward, charming evolution of their relationship is signposted by the changing tone of their emails, particularly through the evolving signature line:

“Sincerely, your inconvenient employee. Then your almost wife. Then your… Right. It’s really well done.”
—Sarah (49:08)

4. Execution: Marriage, Family Reactions, & Emotional Stakes

• Wedding Scene (48:00):
  • Understated, intimate. Saoirse brings Luca a ring (reflecting her gift-giving, over-preparing nature), but doubts linger about who is "in" and who isn't.
• Family Dynamics:
  • Luca’s parents are loving, if flawed; his sister is pregnant and part of the company; Saoirse's family divided between loving rancher dad in Wyoming and disappointed senator mom in California.
  • Host praise for the way Wolf explores the impact of family on adult relationships and trust issues.
  • Standout scene: Luca fiercely stands up for Saoirse in the face of her mother’s coldness (70:24):

“I do love a scene where actually, like, somebody sticks up for you with your family.”
—Jen (70:26)

5. "Romance Logic" and Tropes

• Romance Logic:
  • Hosts delight in the unapologetic use of beloved romance tropes:
    • Heroine temps at hero’s workplace and quickly lands a marketing job (noted as unlikely, but “romance logic” makes it work).
    • The “marriage of convenience” is treated with respect for reader expectations (married early, most of the book is them married, see: 47:43).
• Epistolary Touches:
  • Emails serve as both a plot device and a method for character development.

6. Chemistry, Sex, and Why It Works

• Buildup & Tension:
  • Early near-sex at the party, then a playful push-pull after marriage—especially regarding their “rules” about sex (reserved for hotels only, 75:36), which is pure romance logic.
• Changing Relationship Dynamics:
  • As “fake” marriage blurs into real feelings, they begin breaking their own rules.
• Notable Domestic Moments:
  • Luca throws out Saoirse’s leftover box of condoms in a jealous fit (59:35).
  • He gently puts her wedding rings back on her as she sleeps (“That’s better”—Sarah: “This man is down bad.” [61:05])

7. Emotional Core & Black Moment

• Key Conflict:
  • Luca’s family is hit with a crisis (his sister’s husband’s secret comes out). In the emotional chaos, Luca pushes Saoirse away—mirroring the core wound from her childhood, when her mother made her feel excluded.
• Witness to the rift:
  • Saoirse’s pain is witnessed and validated by Elliot, cementing how alone Luca’s rejection makes her feel.
• Big Gesture and Resolution:
  • Luca’s realization and journey to Wyoming to win Saoirse back is praised as both satisfying and well-seeded throughout the book ("the seeds are set up from the moment they decide to get married" – Jen, 84:33).
• Craft Praise:
  • Wolf’s “external obstacles for decent people being decent to each other” (66:20) is lauded as a model for contemporary romance writing.

8. Meta-Discussion: Series Continuity and Second-Generation Books

• New Series Focuses on the Kids:
  • Jen notes that the next batch of Julia Wolf books follows Locke and Elena’s children, raising questions about how contemporary romance “ages” characters and deals with rapid technological/cultural change (raise world-building issues at 89:41).
• Second-Gen Dilemma:
  • Both hosts find the notion strange unless addressed deliberately (“If you’re going to now, it’s a world-building issue. You have to move the time… you’re basically writing sci-fi.” —Sarah, 93:25).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Wolf’s style and approach to kink in contemporary romance:

“She really treats the age gap as a real relationship, not just kink… I’m interested in them as romance too.”
—Jen, 14:19

On writing contemporary marriage of convenience:

“You need to like the wedding, and you need to get them married EARLY. That is the whole point of the trope.”
—Jen, 47:43

On Saoirse’s character:

“She’s a golden retriever… she’s so good at hiding all the ways she is really thoughtful and concerned about her life, her people, her world.”
—Sarah & Jen, 35:37–38:40

On Luca’s longing:

“He puts [the rings] back on her and says out loud, 'That’s better.' This man is down bad.”
—Sarah, 61:05

On the emotional climax:

“She leaves this note that’s very dignified and … admits she is heartbroken. Not ‘I’m running away, here’s where I’m going,’ but I am just...heartbroken and this broke me and I just need some time.”
—Jen, 86:06

On the contemporary romance genre in 2026:

“Contemporary romance requires us to see decent people be decent to each other… you have to build an external conflict that sustains two decent people being decent… and this book really does, in a very believable way.”
—Sarah, 66:20

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 11:04 – Intro & why Julia Wolf?
• 14:40 – How Wolf incorporates kink and “daddy” tropes
• 18:14 – Series structure and character connections
• 19:05 – Saoirse & Luca’s personalities and backgrounds
• 29:04 – Inciting incident: Nearly hooking up at a party
• 41:12 – Deal points and marriage negotiation
• 47:43 – The wedding scene (“get the marriage in early!”)
• 59:35 – Luca gets jealous over the box of condoms
• 61:05 – Luca puts Saoirse's rings back on as she sleeps (“That’s better”)
• 70:24 – Luca stands up to Saoirse’s mother
• 75:36 – Only having sex in hotels (they’re breaking their own rules!)
• 84:33 – Black moment: Luca pushes Saoirse away during family crisis
• 89:41 – Meta: Second-generation romance books in contemporary settings
• 94:26 – 1990s contemporaries feel historical now; worldbuilding issues

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Final Thoughts

• Sincerely, Your Inconvenient Wife is praised as a “deeply satisfying” modern marriage-of-convenience romance, with endearing characterization, strong family and friend dynamics, and a clever twist on genre convention.
• Julia Wolf’s whole backlist comes recommended for readers who want “straight down the middle” romance with some offbeat elements, genuine emotional intensity, and interconnected series satisfaction.
• The hosts maintain their signature mix of warmth, humor, literary insight, and advocacy for the romance genre’s power and inclusivity.

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This episode is a must-listen for fans of contemporary romance, the marriage-of-convenience trope, and anyone seeking smart, thoughtful discussion of how modern romance both honors convention and pushes at its boundaries.

Transcript

[Sarah McLean]

Well, it's a blizzard.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It is a blizzard. And everybody.

[Sarah McLean]

Not that it's a real deal blizzard.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Not that it's about me, but I was supposed to go to New York this weekend and woke up on. I guess it was Saturday morning and was like. So I think we should cancel, because I. I do not want to get stuck in New York. I mean, I love New York, but I would have been stuck.

[Sarah McLean]

You would have been stuck, but not for as long as. So, everybody, I'm from Rhode island, and my mom still lives there, and my sister still lives there, and they. The snow has not yet finished there. The snow has finished here, and we tapped out at 22 inches here at my house with a ruler in our backyard and my mother's house in Rhode island is. It is still snowing, and they are already at 32 inches.

[Jennifer Prokop]

That's insane.

[Sarah McLean]

Which is. Everybody. A lot of snow. Like, and it's also not light. You know, there are different kinds of snow. This is really, really good snowman snow. Like, it's sticky.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It, like, holds together.

[Sarah McLean]

It's heavy snow. Like, I was looking at our deck, which is made of wood, and definitely falling apart, and I was like, I wonder if this is going to hold.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, yeah. Felt that weight on it with all that snow on it. I'll never forget when we had that blizzard in 2011. Like, I, you know, kind of dutifully put on my snow pants. Like, once it stopped, I was like, okay, we're gonna go out and start, like, working the snow. Because that's the thing. It's like, all fun and games when you're sitting there just looking at it. Pretty. But then you have to go out there, and I took, like, sort of a step off of, like, our back steps, and then just, like, this snow went up to my hips. Yeah. And I was like, holy. Like, it really is like, you. I. I've lived in snowy places most of my life, but I was like, wow. Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

You know, it's a lot when, like, you. I, too, have lived in snowy places. I mean, like, I grew up in New England. Like, I. You know, I feel like snow is a thing I. I said on an earlier episode this month. Like, I was a skier. I'm very comfortable around snow. But, like, this morning, I was out there doing a shovel, and I was thinking, this is a lot of fucking snow. Like, and I started to really think, like, how are people gonna get out from under this when they're not in Mom Donnie's New York? Because, you know, our mayor has been really Taking care of business here.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Sophie's are so charming.

[Sarah McLean]

I know. Did you see the one I sent you? The one where he called the, like the school student.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I know, it was so cute.

[Sarah McLean]

Tell her.

[Jennifer Prokop]

There was.

[Sarah McLean]

Well, because they were so upset that it was remote learning last time.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Well, sure.

[Sarah McLean]

So we gave them a real deal snow day, which is cute.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It really is here in snowy Chicago News. So everybody, we name our snowplows in the city, which is pretty funny. So when they put a new every year, I mean, I think a lot of them are just regular or whatever, but, like, every year it's like a really funny thing they do at like, the city of Chicago website, which is like, name the snowplow. And then, like, people get to suggest names and then people get to vote on the finalists. And this year, of course, everyone I know suggested that the name of the snowplow should be Fuck Ice or. No. No. What? No, it wasn't. It. It's not Ice. That would not. It's the city of Chicago. So clearly.

[Sarah McLean]

Or something like that.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Abolish Ice is what it was. And so of course, everybody, including me, everybody I knew, like, got. You know, because you enter in your zip code and like, enter in your title and. And in fact, they announced this morning that the newest snowplow is named Abolish Ice. Amazing.

[Sarah McLean]

Good job, democracy.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Welcome to the resistance. Right. And I do. I think it's this, like, little thing. I mean, listen, it's like, obviously I'm joking that it's not like. Right. Like doing the work is more than just naming a snowplow. But I do think things like that

[Sarah McLean]

every little thing counts.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. And I think they're just like. It's like a little. I don't know, like, it just gives

[Sarah McLean]

you that little boost.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right. Like, a lot of people feel the way I feel. A lot of people think this is wrong. A lot of people want to, like, see us all working together to apologize. And it felt very. It was. Felt great.

[Sarah McLean]

I do feel like. Are you sensing. And I know that of the two of us, I'm the one who's. I said to Jen earlier this week, I was like, I feel like I annoy everybody with my hope.

[Jennifer Prokop]

But. But I. You're Sagittarius, I'm Scorpio.

[Sarah McLean]

And we can't sometimes just.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Can't help that.

[Sarah McLean]

Sometimes we just run counter to each other. But I do feel that over the last couple of weeks, like, there have been little things that have gone on in my life where I'm like, oh, we like There is. The needle is moving. It's. You know, like, just today, I was. I was outside on my street, and my neighbor. We were both shoveling. We were shoveling at the same time. So we were doing that thing that we do. How are the kids with. How is this cold out here when it's supposed to snow again this week? Whatever the things were. And I'm pretty sure this guy, if he didn't vote for Trump, he just didn't vote, you know, one of those. But, like, we're out there. And he was like. He was like, God, I'm tired of the snow. And he's like, I'm thinking about Puerto Rico. You know, the food's great. And I really like that Bad Bunny at the Super Bowl.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And I was like, all right.

[Sarah McLean]

And I was like, all right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I guess Bad bunny, like, did a

[Sarah McLean]

little thing there for my neighbor.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Gave him some. A way to talk about his feelings, I guess.

[Sarah McLean]

And I was like, okay, well, you know, great.

[Jennifer Prokop]

You know what's really funny is this morning. Okay, so everyone, I. To my shame. And it's like, whatever. It's just the way I. I do not know any Spanish. I don't know how that's possible, but it's true.

[Sarah McLean]

And now when you say that, do you mean, like, you literally, like, if you hear it, like, if you're in a bodega in Chicago or whatever? Like, you just. It.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I mean, it's very limited. Limited, right. Very.

[Sarah McLean]

Language did you take in high school?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Well, see, here's my problem. I took French in high school, but that was.

[Sarah McLean]

I mean, the thing.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Okay, everybody. The way languages have taught have really changed a lot. And I think, like, when I was in high school, it was like, really. The focus was very much on reading and writing.

[Sarah McLean]

And now learn to conjugate this verb.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right. Exactly. Which, by the way, doesn't get you anywhere. And then in. But now I think the focus is much more on, like, that doesn't really matter. What we want you to be is conversational. Right. Like, practice talking about your family. Yes. Think about your. Right. So anyway, I just think I came up at a different time, so. But, yeah, very little. My point here is, when I am editing, I really like to listen to music, but I can't listen to music that is. That has, like, lyrics. I'll be, like, singing along. I need to focus on what is in front of me. But I have found that I can listen to Bad Bunny. Yeah. Because it's. I don't know it. Right. I know what he's Saying. But it's, like, peppy. It kind of keeps me going. I really like it.

[Sarah McLean]

And so great. We've been listening. I mean, we. Along with everybody else in circle.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Sure.

[Sarah McLean]

It's been, like, nonstop Bad Bunny in our house.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, it's.

[Sarah McLean]

And, yeah, I'm delighted. I'm especially delighted by the. There's a guy who did a, like, white guy who was like, let me get this. Let me fix this for you, everybody, so that you all understand how amazing Bad Bunny is. And he. He, like, did titi me procunto. But, like, he switched. He switched to English and then he, like, showed how it still rhymes.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Like, oh, that's amazing.

[Sarah McLean]

And with, you know, the. The lyrics in Spanish so that he could, you know, show it off. And it was, you know, terrific. And I just feel like everybody is having a great time where. Yeah, the super bowl did the thing.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I don't know if I've ever told you the story, like, years ago. I mean, with, like, maybe since the pandemic, but like, a couple of years, I think after. Like, yeah, a couple of years ago, but like, not before the pandemic. I don't know if that makes sense. Bad Bunny had a concert at Soldier Field, and we were coming back from somewhere else and sort of got, like, caught in the Soldier Field traffic. Like, in, like, kind of the neighborhood, kind of like people. And so my husband's like, what is going on? I was like, oh, it's a Bad Bunny concert. And he, like, was just really like, maybe we should not include this story. Anyway, he looked around. I mean, like, most of the people coming out of the concert were Latinx, right? And he was like, is Bad Bunny like a Spanish speaking act? And I was like, you don't know who Bad Bunny is?

[Sarah McLean]

When was this?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Years ago. Years ago. Years ago, right? Yeah. No, not in. Not in the past year. But also, like, I will admit. Listen back to. We've talked about this. If you're not driving around with your kids, how are you learning about new music?

[Sarah McLean]

You're not a music person. I don't know how you. You know, I live with a music person. And so he's like. He knows who everybody is. He's listened to everything. Like. But, like, I am not a music person. And I'm like, how do you find, like, the. And then every once in a while, I'll hear a song and I'll be

[Jennifer Prokop]

like, I'll hear Bad Bunny.

[Sarah McLean]

And I'll be like, what's this? This is great. And I feel like I. I discovered It.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

Have you heard of this?

[Jennifer Prokop]

And everyone's like, yes, that's the super bowl guy. Yeah. Right. This is a global phenomenon. Pop superstar. Yes. But at that moment, I was like, yeah, it's the Bad Bunny concert. And then I was like, Mr. Reads Romance. Come on. And he was like, I know, I know, I'm sorry.

[Sarah McLean]

But now he knows. But once you know about bad, then you're in.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, we all. We did very much. Ambassador to love. Ambassador to love, exactly. Nice. You know. You know who else was a real ambassador to love is. I don't know if you had a chance. I think I sent it to you. Ryan Coogler won a BAFTA award. There was a lot of controversy, which I don't know that we are going to talk about that, but we're not going to get into it. Had a chance to. Those men deserve an apology. I will say that.

[Sarah McLean]

They got one about an hour ago.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Good. If you have not had a chance, I'll put it in show notes. Ryan Coogler's speech is beautiful because he talked about, like, essentially, like, all the people in the cast and crew and his love for them, and then, like, what love means to him. And then he gives some advice to writers. I'm not going to spoil it because, like, he's a writer and he said it a lot better for me, like, paraphrasing. But it was amazing. It was a really, like. Sometimes I feel like the speeches people give at, like, these award ceremonies sometimes really position them in such an interesting way and, like, their art. And I feel like I really learned something about Ryan Coogler and his art from that speech and it was great.

[Sarah McLean]

So, anyway, no, I really enjoy. I loved that you sent that to me.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

Welcome, everyone, to Fated mates. I'm Sarah McLean. I read romance novels and I write them.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And I'm Jennifer Prokop, a romance reader and editor. And this week we are doing a deep dive of a book by Julia Wolf called Sincerely, your Inconvenient Wife.

[Sarah McLean]

Yes, because you talk about why, Sarah, I fell down the Julia Wolf rabbit hole when we were doing. Around. Around New Year's Eve.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes, because, like, it was New Year's.

[Sarah McLean]

I remember exactly when it was. Because her book. Dear Grumpy Boss. No, I'm sorry. Her book, P.S. you're Intolerable was on our New Year's Eve list because there is a sort of discovery of lactation kink in that

[Jennifer Prokop]

book in a very, like, straight over the middle.

[Sarah McLean]

Romance.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes. Not like it's.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah, these are.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

Very straight down the middle, contemporary romances. And they just happen in that book. Like, they. She's. She's pregnant by another man at the beginning of that book, and she, like, she and her boss fall for each other, and then, like, she has the baby and then she's, you know, lactating, and he, like, is into it. Like, there. It's just. And it's just sort of like a casual sort of evolution. When I talked about it on that episode, I was sort of like, this is like the. It's the furthest, like, none not kinky that you can get for this. It's just like a thing they do because they love each other and they. He's into it. And so. Or they're both into it.

[Jennifer Prokop]

But then.

[Sarah McLean]

But I really loved that book. I thought it was really charming. And then I went back to the beginning of that series, and so I read all of them, one right after another. And it was one of those moments that you as romance readers understand because, like, it was delightful.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. And actually I ended up doing something similar. I really like.

[Sarah McLean]

Oh, you read others?

[Jennifer Prokop]

I. But I read other books because, you know, she had some rock star romances, and I really love a rock star romance.

[Sarah McLean]

Oh, did you like those?

[Jennifer Prokop]

I did.

[Sarah McLean]

I never got to them because I then paused. You know, read something for work, I guess.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, terrible. For the podcast. Terrible. And so, yeah, I read. I think the ones I read. Let me look. I want to make sure I have the right one. You. I am. Listen, I love this woman and her backlist, but I will tell you something about, like, the way these books are titled. I'm like, I don't remember what those titles were in any way. But, yeah, there were some rockstar romances that I read that I also really liked. And I think what appealed to me is there was one. Let me see if I can figure out which one it is. Sorry. I guess I should have done this before. Is. There were some ones that were sort. Oh, there was one that was sort of like an age gap. And I was like, that kind of looks hot. It's called, I think, Built to Fall. And it was not like a inappropriate age gap. Right. Like, she's. He's older, but she's like a young, I think, like, PR rep on the. Essentially on the tour, and they end up sort of falling in love. And I found it to be like, I don't know, like a. Like again. One of the things I really like about this author, it feels to me is like, if you are like, okay, I like these Books as kink. Now, I would like to see these books as a romance. I think that she really does a good job at, like, picking up some of those, like, you know, like, there's a million, like, daddy, Jessie, Jessica style daddy romances. But this is one that really treats the, like, age gap as, like, a real relationship, not just. Not just kink. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. It's just kink. But I'm interested in them as romance, too. And so I think that's what, like, really drew me to that one.

[Sarah McLean]

Yes.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And you talked about this potentially.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah, on the podcast. I think we talked about that daddy one.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, maybe.

[Sarah McLean]

Anyway, so. But then, you know, when you do that. And then Jen was reading them, too, and then other people, we were talking, like, I was. I was interacting with, like, my other. I was, like, recommending them to other friends, and then I just thought, like. And then I think it was you. You were like, let's do one of these as a deep dive.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

And I had read the third one, so.

[Jennifer Prokop]

No, the.

[Sarah McLean]

I guess the second one. It's the second one, which is a marriage of convenience, a contemporary marriage of convenience called Sincerely, your Inconvenient Wife.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

And I had a great time. Like, it was really fun. And so I said, jen, this is the one. You're gonna love it, because there's a scene in here that is made for Jen, and. Yeah. So that's the pick.

[Jennifer Prokop]

This week's episode of Faded Mates is brought to you by Melanie Green, author of New Flames.

[Sarah McLean]

Maggie and Adrienne have had a casual arrangement for a while, and it should have flamed out a long time ago, except her best friend move to his small town, and the sparks between them have refused to die. However, Maggie is in Honeywine, the town that he lives in, recovering from her hysterectomy. So sex is off the table, and she tells him so, but she'll be there for the summer. And so he is sort of fine with that. He's willing to jump in and care for her and become a part of her life and spend time with her. And these two are falling for each other hard. So Maggie is really loving Adrian's care and their smoldering chemistry. The fact that they can't do it is actually, like, making everything even more intense. And so they have these wonderful, stolen weeks together where they wrestle with the future that they had envisioned for themselves and with each other. And ultimately, these two are falling in love. And it's a slow, slow, delicious burn between two people who are. Who are childless by choice.

[Jennifer Prokop]

All right, so if you would like to check out New Flames, it is available in print and e. Wherever books are sold. If your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Melanie Green for sponsoring this week's episode. The way that these books are kind of connected is there's these, like, four men. Well, three men who are kind of best friends. And then the fourth book is one guy's brother, and they have been, like, really best friends for a long time. And then, you know, in classic romance series fashion, they are going to, like, kind of fall in love. Right. So Weston, in book one, falls in love with Elliot's sister. Right. So it's kind of like a, you know, it's got that brother's, you know, brother's best friend vibe. And then the. Her name, I think is Elise.

[Sarah McLean]

Yep, that's right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right. Is that right?

[Sarah McLean]

Okay, that's the last one.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, that's the first one. And then. Yeah, yeah. And then Elise's best friend is Saoirse, and that's this one. And then the third guy is Elliot. We talked about him because he's the. You know, he likes that milk butter brother. Well, he loves that button up from the sort he does.

[Sarah McLean]

I think part of the joy of

[Jennifer Prokop]

that book, though, is that he's so buttoned up. Correct.

[Sarah McLean]

And then he just loses his mind over this woman.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. So in this one, what happens is Saoirse. And so Saoirse is at a party at, like, a real fancy.

[Sarah McLean]

She's like a kind of. She's life of the party girl, but she's also like, she's your friend. She's your Sagittarius friend. She's your friend who, like, you're like, I'm thinking of doing this. And she's like, let me get my shit.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, let's go. Let's do it.

[Sarah McLean]

I'm gonna. Yes, I will go skydiving with you. Yes, I will travel to, like, France with you. Yes, I will go backpacking in the Himalayas with you. Yes, I will, you know, sail around

[Jennifer Prokop]

the world for herself, even. I'm going to say yes if I think I'm going to get something out of it. But she also has a real. Has real trouble sort of like, committing to anything. Right. So she is like, you know, just has a series of temporary jobs she would rather, like, temp at a place for a couple months and kind of do the work and move on. Right. So she. She is. We see her as like, unable to settle down, but now that it's like a. A quality that might have been like really fun and charming when they were real young, but now that they are getting more towards their late 20s, is starting to feel like, is she falling out of step, like, with her friends? Right. So she shows up at a. She goes to a party with a. A kind of a casual friend and. And ends up meeting and having a very near one night stand with this hot man named Luke. And she tells him her name is Sasha or he mishears and thinks her name is.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah, she tells him the truth, but like, they both sort of miss hear each other because the party's so loud.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah McLean]

And then. And he like. And Luca is the new CEO of his family business, which is a company called Rossi Motors, which makes like, really terrific motorcycles, like, you know, Ducatis, that kind of thing. Like, really fancy motorcycles that, you know, are pieces of the art as much as they are, you know, transportation. And his father, his mother is ill and his father has retired to, like, take care of her, and he is now the CEO and his sister is the COO or the CFO of the company. And like, her husband is also in the company, and it's sort of a real family company. But Luca is young and he is committed to this company, but, like, he's young and he sort of isn't. I don't know that he's like 100% ready.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Like. Yes.

[Sarah McLean]

Been like kind of pushed into this spot. And that's not. I think one of the things that I really like about Julia Woolf's books is there is no, you know, it could be, you know, he's not ready. He doesn't want it. He doesn't, you know, it could be a sort of big dramatic thing, but in actual fact, it's just sort of like he's just not sure he's ready. Like, he does want it.

[Jennifer Prokop]

That's.

[Sarah McLean]

This was his. This is his birthright. This was the plan all along, but, like, it just wasn't supposed to come quite now.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes. Well, and I think the other thing is that his part. And part of the reason it has come now, right. Is his dad has had this heart attack and.

[Sarah McLean]

Oh, yeah, the dad is sick.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I'm sorry, not the mom.

[Sarah McLean]

And.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right. And that's why. And so there's like. And this has also caused a little bit of, like, strife and like, interesting dilemma for Luca because he had always thought, like, my parents are so happily married, they're so perfect and great together, but, like, heart, you know, after the heart attack and having to, like, be at home with the mom, his dad's kind of being a little difficult and so there. And then the other thing about not being ready is that there's a. Luca is like, one of those young, hot guys in Denver who is, like, always in. You know, I mean, always in the tabloids and. Right. Like, is always seen on the arm of a different, beautiful woman. And so part of the, like, not ready of it all is that the. The board. Right. Of, you know, the company kind of thinks, like, maybe this guy is not. Like, what if his bad reputation rubs off on us? The company. Right. And this is then what causes essentially the. Right. The plot, once it sort of really gets going, is that Luca realizes, like, okay, if I had a wife, I would look more. Right. His sister's, like, sort of, like, gives him a dossier of, like, you can marry these ladies or not marry, but, like, date these women. This would make you look more settled, like, Right. Like, more ready for this, like, big job. You're not going to be this, like, you know, kind of. I don't know, like. Right. Like wastrel anymore. Even though that's all very silly. And the thing about this is it, like, that's the motivation for him, like, when it all eventually happens. For him to ask Saoirse, Right, to, like, sort of be his wife is like, I can fix a problem for you and you can fix a problem for me, and we'll just do it for two years. And the problem he's gonna fix for her is that she has a very overbearing

[Sarah McLean]

mother.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Mother, Right. A very difficult and overbearing mother who's, like a politician in California. Right. Senator.

[Sarah McLean]

Like, senator. I think she's a state senator from California. But she clearly has aspirations for more.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

And she has. And so she has, like, always been a little. Well, a little he. She's been disappointed in, you know, Saoirse's life choices and also, like, just kind of more. It seems like she's sort of painted in this book as being, like, a woman who just was not satisfied with her life the way it was. And so she left her husband and two children. Her sir's father has, like, a farm

[Jennifer Prokop]

out, like a horse farm. Like in. In Wyoming. Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

Like in the. In the Northwest or. I don't know, is that what we call that, Wyoming?

[Jennifer Prokop]

And so Wyoming, I think, is its own thing.

[Sarah McLean]

Just its own thing. It's just a square over there.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I mean, there's, like, more People in Cook county than Wyoming. I know, right? Your neighborhood. You know, we don't. We cannot pretend.

[Sarah McLean]

Wyoming.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Wyoming.

[Sarah McLean]

You are fascinating. I don't understand. But anyway. But it's like, sort of. It's motorcycling distance from Chicago.

[Jennifer Prokop]

From Denver, you mean?

[Sarah McLean]

I'm sorry. Not Chicago.

[Jennifer Prokop]

From Denver.

[Sarah McLean]

Not Chicago.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Something really funny. I remember when I was in college, which I was college in Philadelphia, and I said something about, like, going home. Like, right. About, like, driving to Detroit for Thanksgiving, because it's like I had family there, and, like, the person I was talking to just, like, their eyes kind of glazed over, and I was like, what? And they're like. It's just like, I'm really thinking about, like, being within driving distance of Detroit. Like, that's so far from here. Like, they just had this, like. Yeah. You know, And I will admit that, like, the idea of, like, four. You can drive to Wyoming in four hours. What? What? Yeah. How's that possible?

[Sarah McLean]

It does feel very far away.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right? That's exactly how book bands.

[Sarah McLean]

I was doing something in Colorado. I was, like, focused on something that was going on in Colorado, and I was like. I literally pulled up a map because I was trying to figure out, you know, what's near there. And Wyoming is actually. You fly into Denver to get to

[Jennifer Prokop]

a lot of Wyoming.

[Sarah McLean]

So anyway, all of that is to say, like. And her brother lives up there with his child, and his wife, who's in. Their story, is a different book in the Julia Woolf universe. And so there's just this kind of sense of Saoirse having this, like, world of her very overbearing mother who has just really not parented well. And then this kind of family that is really lovely, and we don't meet them for about, I don't know, two thirds of the book. And then we meet them and there's this kind of really lovely moment with them. But so here we have these two people who both have, like, are the product of their circumstance, their lives, their children, their childhoods. So Luca comes home and he's very tired. Like, what we know about Luca from his friends and from life is that he was kind of a scoundrelly. Like, you know, like, he not scoundrelly, but, like, he got around, and he was a guy who, like, rode motorcycles and was hot. And now he is, you know, struggling to, like, make good on his new career as CEO of the family business. He comes. He has a cousin from Italy who is staying with him who is the opposite of responsible and basically just like, is throwing Parties in his fancy apartment. And so Luca comes home and his cousin Guest has decided to throw this fancy party. He's invited Saoirse's friend, who is, you know, who he's like, into. She brings Saoirse, and they get there, and Saoirse's just bored. Like, there's, like. We sense immediately that, like, she, too, is on this kind of precipice of, like, how long is she going to be able to, like, do this? And so she gets this party and she's tired and bored, and so she kind of explores this penthouse, because who wouldn't? Sure. Finds the library or the study or whatever and falls asleep like Sleeping Beauty. And then he comes home and he's like, I want none of this party. Like, I just want to have a drink and, like, go to bed. And he walks into his study and there is this beautiful sleeping woman on his couch. And she's like, you know, and then they, like, she wakes up and there. It's kind of magical. And they.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, they almost. He gets her off.

[Sarah McLean]

He does get her off. He has a meal, and then she.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And then I can't remember why. Like, something essentially, all I remember is

[Sarah McLean]

that he has a very nice meal.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes. And then I was like, no wonder Sarah loves this, because she's like, let's not get you next time, boo. Yeah, but I gotta go for whatever reason.

[Sarah McLean]

And he, like, pats her on the head and, like, sends her out into the party and, like, that's that.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

Or it's not to the party, but, like, he sends her home.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So one of the things I actually want to say is, like, I do sort of appreciate, like, how firmly this is just really, like, an inciting incident. Like, the cousin we never see again, her friend that she went with, we never hear from again. She's a roommate. No. It's just. No, because the roommate's a good person. This person. The person is just sort of like this, like, dirt bag friend of hers that, you know, she just agrees to go with. And I sort of was like, you know what? I like that we're not even gonna pretend that I have to care about these people.

[Sarah McLean]

This week's episode of Faded Maids is sponsored by the what in the Smut podcast.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So podcasters K and Ellie, who are the hosts of the what in the Smut Podcast, bonded over their love of reading, writing, and yapping. They're both hilarious. So what else are you gonna do, of course, but start a podcast? A journey we are very familiar with. So what started as a fun Hobby turned into an exploration of what they like in the smut world. And so what they do is every week they get together and talk about a smutty book and whether or not it works. Right? Does the smut work? How does the relationship dynamic feel? And what does the lore bring to the table? This is a really fun podcast and just one that, like, really has. Like, they're going to talk about everything, right? They're breaking down the current reading, talking about their, like, everything that's going on in the world, and most importantly, giving and getting recommendations for people who love the same kind of books.

[Sarah McLean]

You can listen to what in the Smut. Wherever you listen to podcasts, we know that you know where to do that because you're listening to us. And head over to what in the Smut on any podcasting app, and you'll be able to subscribe as a special treat for Faded mates listeners. If you hang out after this week's episode, you will get a sneak peek at an episode of what in the Smut? This thanks to Elle K and the whole what in the Smut team for sponsoring this week's episode. This is where romance really shines. Because there are a lot of things that happen in the first couple chapters of this book where you're like, this would never happen in real life. But it's romance logic. Like, it's just romance reasons, right? Of course, for romance reasons, Saoirse is between temp jobs. Um, she gets a temp job in the marketing department at Rossi Motors.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I mean, that's just how it goes,

[Sarah McLean]

Sarah, where she's, like, temping. And now listen, it has been a long time since I tempt, but when I tempt, it was like, you got sent somewhere to, like, do some filing.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

She's, like, temping to go. She's like, at Rossi Motors, temping. And, like, she's designing, like, advertising. It's fine.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Sure. It's like marketing temping. Right.

[Sarah McLean]

Because she's actually very good at marketing. So she gets this job. She's there and then. But she kind of. It has. It's not clear. Like, he's. He recognizes. He sees her and he recognizes that. Like, she's the girl from the other night. But, like, he's basically like, it can't. This is not odd CEO. She's a temp. Like, this isn't happening.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Go ahead. And then they really, like, interact again. That's what a brunch. Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

And then. And then here's the other thing. So this is the Book the second book in the series. In the first book, her friend, like, her friend married his friend, or her friend started dating his friend, but for reasons. For romance reasons. Saoirse has never been on page with him, Right? Which I. I like to think Julia Wolfe was like, oh, past me really did me a solid. Right? Because they don't know each other, right? Even though, like, their whole friend group, they are both part of this group. They just have never met each other. So she's like. She's hurt. It's that way that you know, you have friends who have friends. Like, and you hear about your friends. Friends. And she knows that he's just been. He's just been promoted to CEO. He's now, like, chairman of the board. And so she loves this farmer's market, like, where she, like, goes and she, like, flirts with the honey guy and she, like, buys her fresh flowers and all her fresh stuff. And she's meeting her friend group for brunch, and she knows that he is going to be there, and she's like, oh, that's. This is going to be the first time I've ever met Luca. Which is weird. But, like, this is great. And she goes to the farmer's market first and she buys him a gift. Oh, yeah, this is great. And what's so cute about this? And listen, writers, if you are out there and you are, like, you're starting, like, writing and you're just, like, struggling, here is a perfect example of, like, a character trait that is bestowed by the author that suddenly gives you such clarity on what. Who this character is. So she's at the farmer's market by herself before brunch at the market, she buys him a cheese board with, like, local cheese, honey from the honey guys. She flirts with, like, yeah, a few things. She packages it all together and brings it to brunch so that when she meets this new person who is friends with all of her friends, she has a gift for him. She's like, I heard you were promoted. You're now chairman of the board. I bought you a cheese board.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Like, it's amazing.

[Sarah McLean]

It's so cute and it's so sweet. And it sets her up as this, like, truly loving and lovable and, like, whimsical, sweet person now.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And what do you think this man does everybody with this cheese board?

[Sarah McLean]

Big dummy.

[Jennifer Prokop]

He just, like, puts it on the ground next to it.

[Sarah McLean]

Has a fucking feeling.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

Doesn't know what to do.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And you have to remember, like, she doesn't know, right? At this point, that Luca, the person she's buying the cheese board for is Luke, the guy she almost had sex with, like, you know, three days earlier.

[Sarah McLean]

No.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So it's. Right. So it's just this great moment, because then, of course, we also see her, like, sort of be like, she's hurt, but also, like, able to process that this is sometimes, like, a little too much for people. They don't know how to respond.

[Sarah McLean]

She's like a golden retriever.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right, Exactly. Right. And so she's kind of like, okay, that's.

[Sarah McLean]

I'm too much.

[Jennifer Prokop]

That's fine. I'm too much. Or, you know, he doesn't really know what to do with this, or he thinks I. You know, it's weird. And I think it's just, like, a really good moment because, of course, everybody. The other great thing about this is, like. And I don't want to drop this thread later on. The first time she's, like, back in the apartment, she sees that he uses

[Sarah McLean]

it, and she realizes the only thing on these, like, perfectly manicured kitchen counters is this cheese board.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And so it's like, a really great way of, like. I don't know, like, there's so many, like, signs and signals just involved in this, like, little exchange. And so they. And of course, you know, he's like, have you been following me? You know, like. Or whatever. Like, men are so dumb. And I think the thing about this whole interaction is it just, like, really sets up, as you said, you know, a very, like, distinctive kind of interaction where she is like, I care about people, and this is how I make friends, and it's how I interact with people, and that's how I show people I care about them. And we see this eventually as a product of, like, how she was raised and, like, what happened between her parents. Right. And then. And then. And maybe I should say what that is now, which is, like, what we find out is that her parents essentially, like. And it's, like, this important, right? Like, fell in love and, like. But because her mom was a state senator and her dad was a rancher in Wyoming, they couldn't ever quite figure it out. And then at some point, her. Her father, like, had an affair, and it broke the marriage, and it broke everything about them as a family. And it broke, you know, and it's like. And then her brother was old enough that he was going off to college and sort of, like, leaving her there to, like, pick up the pieces.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So.

[Sarah McLean]

So she's always been that person.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. And we, like, really see, in a way, that, like, the. Not.

[Sarah McLean]

It's not exactly people pleasing, but it's

[Jennifer Prokop]

is, I think in the sense that, like, she understands that, you know, I am a lot. And so this is a way I can signal to people also at the beginning, though, that I, like, pay attention and I care about you. Right. I'm like, you know, kind of putting money in the bank of our relationships. So later, when I am too much for you, you'll remember these moments. And I don't think it's something like she even really realizes about herself, because the other thing that becomes really clear really fast is she's just not used to people sticking up for her ever. Correct. Elise is her best friend, but that is different than what she's gonna experience with Luca, kind of.

[Sarah McLean]

But even her friends are like, oh, Saoirse, she's such a lark. She's so whimsical. She's so, like.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah McLean]

You know, she's so good at hiding all the ways that she is really thoughtful and concerned about her life, her people, her world.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right. Right.

[Sarah McLean]

So, okay, so then we have to get to the marriage piece. So, yeah, Luca and Saoirse. So then, like, he realizes he's. Then they have this, like, cute. Another thing I really love about Julia Wolfe's books. They're all. They all have these, like, cute little epistolary moments. Everybody who listens to podcast knows, like, right, I'm just trash for anything like that. Oh, yeah, she does it really well. It's great. So good, you know, so there. And he knows her email address because she works for him, so it's, you know, convenient. So then his. So as I said, new CEO, he's very young. He's sort of a hot shot. He's been seen around town with, like, models and, like, women. And now, you know, his sister, who is the CFO of the company, like, is really the kind of, like, brains of the operation in terms of, you know, she takes everything. She's very serious. She's very buttoned up. She takes this job very seriously and the company very seriously. He turns up in his office to discover that his sister has. Who reveals very early in the book, this is sort of like, I don't know. In the first 20% of the book, it's revealed that, like, the sister has this husband who's kind of like, he's just. He's nothing. He's a nothing person.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah McLean]

But he works for the company. And she reveals that she married him in a very sort of, like, Siobhan and Tom Wambsgans. From succession situation. She married him because, like, he was good for the company. Like, he looked good on paper. He was going to make a good husband and serve the company.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah McLean]

And so Luca sort of arrives in his office to discover that his sister has done, like a fair amount of research and discovered that married CEOs are more trustworthy to investors than unmarried CEOs. And she had married for the good of the company. And like, I should say, she is not contentious. They do not dislike each other, these siblings. They love each other very much.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

She is also pregnant with her first child. Right. So, and so there. I. I want it like, they are not. They are in each other's corners largely. And so she's basically like, look, I did this and. And now I'm pregnant. And like, I'm happy.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I'm happy. Right.

[Sarah McLean]

It's okay. Let me send you a list of women who would be appropriate for you to date. And he's like, that sounds like the worst.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It is. It's great. It really is.

[Sarah McLean]

He's like, what? And she's like, listen, this is, this is the way this game is played.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

Like, you know, and he's like, our parents love each other. And she's like, yeah, well, that's the luxury that, you know, maybe you don't have. So he sends this list over and it's just so great.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It's so great.

[Sarah McLean]

I mean, it's all so organized.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah McLean]

And then he's. And he's basically like, I don't.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, I don't want this at all. Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

So. And then luckily, at the same time, Saoirse's mother sort of.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah McLean]

Arrives in. In a really, like, pushy way.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

And it's basically like.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

You have to get your. Together. Like, you're an embarrassment.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah McLean]

And this, like, deeply people pleasing woman is in a struggle.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

So they make a deal. And the deal is, I'll marry you. What if we. What if we. We can solve each other's problems? It's a true marriage of convenience. And listen, I think this is a great example. Like, marriage of convenience is very. It's very particular trope. Yes. Because it requires both parties to find value in a marriage that is not for love.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes. Right. So that's hard to do in a contemporary, I would say. I mean, I think that's the other thing that makes this, like a really interesting read is I think it. It's really effective and I think that's because of some of the guardrails that they put around it once they Agree to it. Right. So he's. I mean, and this. This is the part that I also, like, really liked.

[Sarah McLean]

Is he.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Okay, so there's, like, a time limit on it.

[Elle]

Right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It's gonna be two years. There is going to be. She's gonna move into his place. But they are. She's gonna have her own room.

[Elle]

Right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Like, we can't make it look like. Right. You don't live here. That's not gonna convince anybody. And then the other thing that I really found, like, very interesting was, like, the emotional kind of piece around it gets put in by Luca, who is like, my parents love each other. And, you know, even Clara loves this dummy. Right. To my sister. I mean, yeah, she feels like maybe she picked a safe choice, but, like, you're really like. He's like. She loves him. I think he's a jackass, but she loves him. Yep. And so the emotional sort of guardrail around it is like, it's not going to be about sex. It's going to be about. Right. Like, I'm just gonna. We're just gonna keep that out of that. Like, I already had my nice meal. I don't need to have another one. It's gonna be fine.

[Sarah McLean]

Sure it is, you dummy.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And.

[Sarah McLean]

And listen, this is a. This is a classic Lisa Claypis setup.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And I'm sure. Yeah, but I was really.

[Sarah McLean]

I thought it was.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I mean, I do feel like. Listen, I feel like the whole. Sometimes you can, like, really play around with, like, the. You change some of the things around and it really works. Right. So instead of him being the. Like, he actually really believes in love. She's the one who doesn't. Right. He's the one who's like, well, I can't actually disappoint my parents by having a marriage of convenience, so we're gonna have to make this look real. And she's the one who's sort of more like. Yeah, my. I don't. My.

[Sarah McLean]

I.

[Jennifer Prokop]

My parents all unders. Already understand how strong my boundaries are about where they get to, like, talk and interfere in my life. And so it's very interesting, I think. And it's one of the reasons that it's sort of effective because it feels, like, interesting and different to me.

[Sarah McLean]

Right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes. So they get. Do I want to talk about, like, the actual wedding? Because it's one of my. Another one of my favorite scenes.

[Sarah McLean]

It's so good.

[Jennifer Prokop]

This week's episode of Faded Mace is brought to you by the Romantasy Letters.

[Sarah McLean]

So the Romantasy Letters is a very cool Concept which is you can subscribe for 24 letters that come in the mail. And in each package it's an envelope that arrives in the mail. And in each package is a little booklet which has a chapter of the story which is right now called a treaty of hearts. And it includes other things related to the story. So I actually subscribed to this and I bought it for my daughter who is 12 and really into stuff like this. And our first envelope arrived and when we opened it, it had a little bound booklet which was the first chapter of the book which sets up this kind of story between two rival leaders who make an arrangement for one of them to marry the daughter of the other. And so one is a Fae king and one is a human. And these two are going to have to marry and they're going to have to, you know, make a romance together. And it came with this little booklet. In this, in the prologue he says he's sending a letter to the, to the woman he, he's going to have to marry or he's going to marry to introduce himself. The letter comes with the booklet along with a map of the world and the crest of, you know, the kingdom. It's very cool. It's a really neat little like package. And then that was maybe two weeks ago and this morning when I checked the mail we the second envelope. So every couple of weeks you'll get one and it seems really fun. We're reading it together and maybe you have somebody you'd like to read it with or you'd like to read it by yourself or somebody you'd like to give it to. Right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So if you would like to bring magic back to your mailbox, then you can check out the Romantasy letters. You can go to romantasy letters.com and use the code faded for 20% off your year subscription. All the details for how to order or on their website and it has lots of cool information about like the story and how it works. Thank you to the Romantasy Letters for sponsoring this week's episode. If you're going to say that a book is a marriage of convenience book, then you need to like the wedding.

[Sarah McLean]

They have to get married early.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes, they have to get married early. We need the most of the book needs to be them married. Right. So you can't dilly dally. It can't be like, oh, we're gonna have a marriage of convenience and they're getting married in the third act. No, these need to be married early. That is the whole point of this Trope.

[Sarah McLean]

Yes.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And so she shows up at his house and they're like a. You know, some minister he knows or whatever is gonna. Yeah, go ahead.

[Sarah McLean]

I'm sorry. Before we do this, though, it's also important to note that. That. So the guardrails. There are. There is one other guardrail. Actually, there are two other guardrails. Or not guardrails, but rules. Right. That before she'll agree, one is. He absolutely has to be there when she tells her mother.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah McLean]

That they're married.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah McLean]

Right. And this is obviously tea. The moment I read this, I'm like. And that is the scene that's gonna be for Jen. And then.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, yeah. I mean, we're gonna talk at length about this.

[Sarah McLean]

We are. And then remind me, Jen and everybody else who's listening that when we get there, I have something to say about heated rivalry. So then. And then the other thing she says is, I want a cat.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, yes. How did I forget about the cat part? I love this part.

[Sarah McLean]

But the cat is gonna come back too. It's important. Right? So just remember that. And now I will let you. The wedding day.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right. So yeah, there's like, her. Her.

[Sarah McLean]

And this is all over by email by. By the way. They negotiate by email. And I'm just eating it up.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Of course you are. It was great, though. It really was. Right, so the whole title comes from that. She's like, sort of like you're sincerely your, you know, inconvenient employee. And then it's like, you're almost wife. And then it's like, you're right. Like, it's just like, you see the. The evolution of, like, their feelings in the way they're, like, addressing each other. And the sign off. It's really well done. It's great.

[Sarah McLean]

And it's so great because she's sort of like, I. It's such a great way of getting Saoirse into a relationship at, like, conceptually. Because this is a person who, like, never commits to anything. Doesn't.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah McLean]

Won't even, like, Won't even get a, like, long term job. Won't even get, like. Doesn't have an apartment.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Like, has wanted a cat her whole life but won't get one.

[Sarah McLean]

But won't get one because it's too much of a commitment. But now she's like, well, two years. Two years is a. That's like, not really a commitment. But it is long enough to have a cat.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah McLean]

Like, so she's. We're starting to even just see in the text, like, Saoirse's mind beginning to just shift toward, like, instead of short term, now we're thinking, like, longer.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Well. And I think they basically agree, like, you know, they're not gonna sleep around or bring other people home. Like, there's other things that they discuss. Right. So.

[Sarah McLean]

But they don't commit to. They don't commit to, like, a completely monogamous.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I can't even really remember it feels like lately. Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

It's not really a thing. Everyone there isn't, like, another person who comes into play.

[Jennifer Prokop]

But I think at the beginning, it's

[Sarah McLean]

just sort of like, we have to be respect, responsible and respectful. And then it becomes very clear very quickly that, like, he just, like, neither of them are having it.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. Right. And I think then. Then what they're gonna agree to is, like, there'll be a divorce. And then this is, like, the other really,

[Sarah McLean]

like.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Like, the hardest part for her, I think, Saoirse, is that she basically is like, listen, we're gonna have to lie to everybody. Okay?

[Sarah McLean]

This is.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And she doesn't want to do that.

[Sarah McLean]

And he's like, okay, but listen, when

[Jennifer Prokop]

we actually get divorced, we won't. People can find out then, and we won't really actually be. I don't remember exactly how he phrases it. Essentially something like, there's no. We won't be forcing people to take sides, so it'll be fine. And there's this great line, and I highlighted this because I thought it was really interesting, right? Where it's like, she thinks. He was so calm and slick with his answers, I wanted to shout and ruffle him up a little. This man was asking for a lot while behaving like it was nothing.

[Sarah McLean]

Mm.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right?

[Sarah McLean]

And he is in his head the whole time.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

Like, he's sort of, like, thrown off. At one point, she says. She sort of says, like, well, she's superstitious about the wedding, right? Like, she's like, don't look at me. Like, she comes. The wedding's at his apartment. It's just the two of them and an officiant who he's, like, summoned, right? And she's like, it's my wedding. So she dresses and she's like, don't look at me. And he's like, what the hell? And she's like, you're looking at me? And he's like, why wouldn't I look at you? And she's like, it's bad luck.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

And he's like, what the fuck? And then. And then he's like, are you always this like, superstitious. And she says, won't it be fun for you to find out when I'm Mrs. Lucas Rossi.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

And in my head, I'm like, oh, he's gonna die. Because she said his name.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah McLean]

And he does die, but he dies.

[Jennifer Prokop]

He, like, gets stomach. Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

Because he's. No, he gets a stomach because he's

[Jennifer Prokop]

like, oh, yeah, I guess. Right. Well, maybe this is the whole, like, I. I really actually believe in marrying for love. And now this is gonna be. Who has this. Her. My name. And, you know, this will be my wife, but she's not going to be my wife. He won't. It won't be his wife soon enough. Right? My wife. My wife. And so I think this is like a really. And then the other really interesting thing that happens at the wedding is

[Sarah McLean]

she

[Jennifer Prokop]

brings him a ring. Right?

[Sarah McLean]

The best.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. Right. Like, back to, like, the gift giving part of it. Now they're on, like, the balcony over, I would assume, like, the front range. And, like, the, you know, the minister takes, like, pictures of them and, you know, like, sort of like there's this real push. And I think this is what I really like is like. And this is all. I mean, I think the wedding is kind of over by, like, the first hundred pages. Like, and it's a long book. It's 400 pages. So, like, by the first quarter, right. The wedding has happened, which it's almost like, exactly at the end, how it should be. Everybody, good job. And so she's given him a ring, and it's not like. And she. He gives it this, like, strange look almost, and she's, like, a little embarrassed, like, he didn't want it, whatever. And it's just like, again, very interesting the way that she clocks and seems to understand that what he is, what is awkward and what he doesn't, like, is all of the stuff about, I don't know, like, the trappings of this. Right? So how could someone who doesn't believe in marriage be bring. How is she bringing me a ring?

[Sarah McLean]

How.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Why does she show up in a dress? Right. Like. Yeah, we are starting to see, like. Like, confusion and delay. Right. Sort of already happening, but. Right. Well, I say. And then when they, like, have brunch, right, with, like, sort of like the gang or whatever, and she's. It's really interesting because Elise, who is, like, her best friend, literally, the first thing she says is, like, you don't believe in marriage. And, like, Saoirse has to, like, light her face, right? Yep. I didn't until Luca Right. And then it's like, you didn't even tell me that you were together. Well, it, like, happened so fast. It was a whirlwind. Right. And it's Elliot, whose book comes after. This is the one who is like, I think something is happening here. You know, I don't really. Something is sus. And I can't quite figure out what it is. Although this is also. Listen, a little mild spoiler that I really enjoyed was then them meeting Elliot's, like, assistant, and it was Luca who's like, oh, when is she due? Which was like. Right. And Elliot's like, what are you talking about? Yeah. He's like, your sister is clearly pregnant. And I mean, like, perfect. You. She would have told me. And look at being like, well, you have eyes. Like. Right.

[Sarah McLean]

I mean.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Anyway, it's a great scene in Also in Elliot's book, but it was really fun to, like, read it here, too. Yeah. Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

Well, anyway, here's the other thing that I would say of the two of them. So for somebody who Luca was so insistent, Right. That they, like, keep the secret among everybody, right? Yeah. And. But she is really the one who is carrying this because.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah McLean]

I just want to say one more thing about the wedding scene, which is so, like, really delicately developed. Right. Because he obviously has all these things for her too, right. Like, he has.

[Jennifer Prokop]

He.

[Sarah McLean]

Although he does, he has a bouquet of flowers for her, which is a surprise. Like. Yeah, it's surprising that he thought of it.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah McLean]

And he has a ring for her, which does not surprise you as a reader, because, like, that's the ruse, Right. Like, she is going to need a ring. So he is surprised that she has a ring, but then when he puts on the ring that she gives him, he doesn't even look at it. Right. And we're in Saoirse's point of view, and she's like, he doesn't even care. Like, does he not like it? Like, does he? And so I think, like, what we're doing here is we're starting to see the seeds of doubt that will come back to haunt both of them later in the book. Because Sarah doesn't stick around here. She doesn't. She's always. She's the one who's always leaving, who's never committing, who's. Can't say who can't stick around. But the reality is that she's starting to mark in large part because she can. She knows it. Right. She's experienced it all these moments where Lucas is also, like, not a hundred percent in yeah. Right. And so, you know, at the moment, at the end, where there is this crisis point and this kind of black moment for them.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

There is a situation where she, too, is like, you weren't in.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah McLean]

Like, ultimately, her biggest fear is he's not in.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, right, of course.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah. Because she knows what that's like.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes. Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

I think the thing.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So the thing that's then, like, really interesting to me about, like, the book is sort of. Then again, it's marriage of convenience. Right? Like, so now we. Now they're married, right? It's 25% of the way through the book, and now they are married. And now we are going to see them transition from being two people faking being married to being real married.

[Sarah McLean]

Right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And what are the markers of that for both of them? And so the first sort of set of hurdles is about their families. And so it's gonna be telling, right? Like, Clara being like, wait, what the fuck? I gave you the dossier of ladies to date and now you're married. Right. And his parents sort of, like, show. And now here's the other thing. Luca is the new CEO of this company. And so he's always at work late, right? Like, she moves her stuff in. She has her own room. There's a common room, like a family room that they both really like, hanging out in. And so this is often, like, when he comes home, you know, he'll.

[Sarah McLean]

She'll.

[Jennifer Prokop]

You know, he'll find her there, Right? And that, like, it's. It's like sort of this, like, touchstone. But then there's all these other really funny scenes that are happening, like, in the home, right? So he goes looking for her on, like, his. It's like, right, literally, like, the first day they're married, they're not obviously, going to go on a honeymoon. He's got too much work or whatever. And, you know, like. And he comes home and he finds a box, like, an open box of condoms in the drawer.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah, like, it's in her bedside drawer.

[Jennifer Prokop]

She moved it in with, like, a vibrator. And he is, like, so fucking pissed about it.

[Sarah McLean]

Like, livid that it's open. That's. That it's. And he's not, like, I don't think it's, like, jealousy of the person who used the condom before him, but it's like, jealousy of the idea that she might use this open box of condoms with someone else.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes. So he throws it out and it's. And listen, everybody, not just that, he throws it out in, like, the kitchen garbage. Can he goes down the hallway to the trash chute, tosses the whole box in there. Right.

[Sarah McLean]

Perfect.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And this is the part where it's like. I don't know, it's just so great. Right.

[Sarah McLean]

That's the moment where you're like, oh, no, they're not other people.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right. Right. And then.

[Sarah McLean]

And that's also the same night she's, like, asleep on the couch or something because he's late.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

And she's taken off her rings because they are burdened to her. Like, she's basically like, I don't know, it's too much. So she takes them off and she leaves them somewhere. I can't remember where.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It's like, on the couch, like, on the. I think. Right?

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah. And then he comes in and he's. He's like, you gotta go to bed. And he does that. I love that. That sort of sleepy, like.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

He, like, lifts her up to, like, take her to bed and put her to sleep. And he's like, where are your rings? And she's like, I took them off. And he goes. And he gets them.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

And then he puts them back on her and he says out loud, that's better. Like, this man is down bad.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And it is. Right. Like. And that's.

[Sarah McLean]

This is so fun. Listen. It's such a great romance because you're like, he's so into her, and it's only 30% of the way through, and you're still like, these two idiots are never gonna make it work. And it's so fun. This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Videntra Wallets. Elegant Italian leather wallets crafted for style, durability, and everyday luxury.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. So this is really a fun item and one where you're really going to, like, treat yourself to, like, this luxurious item. It is handcrafted in Florence, and these are really slim, elegant, stylish wallets. And the thing that is really cool. So the word ventro, essentially, is kind of like a mishmash that's meant to say, like, look inside. And so, you know, the outside of these wallets is, you know, plain. It's like black or tan or navy. But then when you open it up, it has a beautiful, vibrant color. So I have the navy one, and when you open it up, it is this beautiful robin's egg blue. And it just, like, feels like a little secret to yourself, like, keep your money in something beautiful.

[Sarah McLean]

Love it.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And I, like. Sarah, love a pocket wallet. And so for me, I don't carry this wallet all the Time. This is a wallet. I'm like, okay, if I'm just going out and I want to stick something in my pocket or right, I'm traveling and I just want to have something that I can like sort of pull out and carry with me. So, you know, if this is something you might enjoy also, it's just like a part of your wallet wardrobe. I'll say, well, you can learn more

[Sarah McLean]

about the Venture Pocket and Bi fold [e-mail] that's V-E-E-N T R O.com and if you use the code faded, you'll get 10% off in addition to any other offer that Ventro is is running. So again, that's videntro.com use the code Fated for 10 additional discounts on the website if your podcasting app supports it. You can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to check out these wallets. And thanks to the team at Videntro for sponsoring this week's episode

[Jennifer Prokop]

there. Then I think like the next sort of set of like sort of gauntlets essentially are with family. So he. Oh, I forget. He also sees her at lunch with her coworkers and it's like two women and a man. And like the two women are in the, you know, in the restroom. And so he only sees her with this man and he's like glaring daggers at her across the room. He's with her, his sister, but like doesn't introduce her at this time. You know, it's just like. And this to me is like, I don't know, like, you know, in that book, was it Save the Cat where it's like fun and games is like the name of like this to me it really like hits as fun in games because what we really see are like these two sort of idiots. And what happens is. And this is where like all the announcing all of their plans for how they're going to tell their families gets thrown out the window. Because it is after this lunch that she goes back to fudgeing work and everyone is staring at her.

[Sarah McLean]

He's. Because he was so pissed off he

[Jennifer Prokop]

said a company wide email.

[Sarah McLean]

Well, because she sort of sticks it to him too. Like, he's like, what are you doing? And she's like, we're just bashing the CEO.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

And then he. Yeah, he tells the whole company they're married and like, kind of her.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah McLean]

Like nobody wants to be her friend anymore. Yes.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Like they won't invite her to happy hour anymore.

[Sarah McLean]

She likes everyone. She like shops at the farmer's market and buys people gifts.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes. And so basically, you know, these people she just had work, like, lunch with are like, Wait, are they talking about you? Because we were just at lunch together. And then Clara shows up in his office and is like, literally, what the is wrong with you? And then there's this great port part where, like, she texts him and she's basically like, I love this. Send me the code for the elevator. And he's like, I'm a little busy now. And she's like, you are locked up in your fucking tower. I am down here with the normies, and I will reply all to this fucking email. Let me up that goddamn elevator. And it's great. Like, it really is, like, fun. Right? And I think the other thing about a romance like this is I think it really is effective when you get the sense that the two people are well matched. Right. There's not a huge, like, disconnect in terms of, like, their ability or power to speak to each other. Right. Like, they're a good match for each other.

[Sarah McLean]

No. And it's really a great lesson in how to write a contemporary in 2026.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah McLean]

And what I mean by that is, like you said, these are good people who are well matched, who have good friends, who have families that love them. Like, there is not a lot of trauma here. There is, like, obviously, Saoirse doesn't have a great relationship with her mother, but, like, so say so many of us, right? Like, that's very relatable, and I think that there's something. But, like, Julia Woolf is able to maintain a level of, why can't they

[Jennifer Prokop]

be together right now?

[Sarah McLean]

That is rare these days in contemporary romance. And I mean, I'll just say it. Everybody, like, we're all noticing it, right? Like, it's the characters, if you can't. And it. It's born of the fact that, like, obviously in 2026, contemporary romance requires us to see decent people be decent to each other.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right?

[Sarah McLean]

But that means that you have to build an external conflict in the book that sustains two decent people being decent with each other. And this book really does, in a very believable way.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, yeah. And so, like, then, you know, he gets home that night, his parents have shown up and met Saoirse, even though he's not there. Right. And his mom's, like, in love, of course. So cute.

[Sarah McLean]

It is.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It's really cute. And I think. Then I think the part of it, though, that is gonna be far more difficult is her family, because then she Essentially gets the, like, sort of call. Like, now you need to. You need to show up, right? And they video call, I think. And, like, you know, she's got a brother who's like, like, really? Come on. And I think this is. At this point, it's not until they

[Sarah McLean]

go to Wyoming public, it's made public in the news, right?

[Jennifer Prokop]

And so now it's like all of this is, like, hurried up. And this is why she was pissed at him. Like, what were you doing? And the thing that is, I think, important about the trip to Wyoming is it's really the first time we understand or like, start to understand why Saoirse is so, like, where her deep rooted sort of wounds are around, like, love and marriage. And so even though her brother. Her. Her. Her brother's name is Locke and his wife is named Elena, they have two kids. Elena's pregnant again. The kids are actually really fun. And I, you know, I don't, like, typically love kids in romance, but, like, it's a boy and a girl and, like, the girl is named Hannah, and all she wants to do is, like, put bows on everything, including in Luca's hair. But, like, the. The little boy's name is Caleb, and he is basically like, you're not good enough for Cersei. You know, it's like, adorable. And then Locke, her brother, is very much like, kind of, how dare you. We weren't there. Like, we weren't there for the wedding. Like, what. You know, he. And this. I know my sister something again, like, sort of like, what's going on here? And it's then when her, like, they essentially get the call that her, like, mom has also come into town. Right. Like, is. Has, like, airdropped in, is like, I

[Sarah McLean]

have to get ahead of this. Her mom has, like, some kind of ruthless sidekick.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

And.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And she's like, we're gonna meet at, you know, the Wagon Wheel Cafe or whatever the fuck it's called. And. And this is, I think, the first time Luca really understands that because remember, like, he has only seen her with this group of friends who, like, love and support her and think she's awesome. And now he's seen her with, like, her brother and her father and this part of the family who thinks she's awesome, but this conversation with the mother in law, and we're skipping, like, some sex that happens kind of before is with her mom.

[Sarah McLean]

It's devastating.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And it's really like, I don't know, like, I do love a scene where actually, like, somebody sticks up for you with your Family.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

But it's like one of those really painful moments where you're like, Saoirse's mom just doesn't under. Is so cold in a way, and doesn't understand the effect that it has on her relationship with her kids. No.

[Sarah McLean]

And she has chosen a different.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. Life. I mean, you.

[Sarah McLean]

You talk about how the father had an affair. Like, I mean, it is true that the father had an affair.

[Jennifer Prokop]

That's.

[Sarah McLean]

And listen, that's not great. But the reality is, is that, like, I also think this book sort of threads that needle really interestingly because, well, everybody knows that. I. I mean, like, I. I do not ascribe to no cheating in romance. Like, I think. I think it can be done really well. And I think in this particular case, like, here are two people where she chose a different life and strung him along, like. And he was sort of in a position where, like, he was sad and lonely.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And it really is very reasonable, like, the.

[Sarah McLean]

And because the marriage was over. Right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

You know, and I think that the.

[Sarah McLean]

The way that. That marriage is sort of articulated in the way that we see it on page, because we all see the two of them together. Right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Like. Right.

[Sarah McLean]

The way we see it on page, we think to our. Like, you sort of can't help but think to yourself, like, these are. This is a sort of terrible reality. Like, very relatable, again, that Saoirse and her brother witnessed and, you know, marriage is terrifying if that's the way you think of it.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah McLean]

Yes. Also, it really shows the. The scene with the mother also sort of really underscores this kind of idea that no wonder Saoirse doesn't. Is afraid to put down roots, is afraid to commit, is afraid to say yes to opportunity, is afraid to, like, start a business, to do any of these things because, like, her mother's, like, rigid obsession with success. Yeah. And, you know, clawing her way to the top. Ruined.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

Their family. Yes.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. And so Saoirse's like, I don't really want any part of that. But also, in. It was fine. Again, one of the things I think is really smart about this book is it's like, these were choices that worked for her when she was 22.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

But now that she is, like, closer to 30, it's feeling like it's like Arrested Development. Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

She's just hanging in thin air. Like, she's just hanging there.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right. And so it's like being with Luca and, like, it's a great scene where he basically is like, you're never gonna talk to My wife. Like that again. Right. I mean. Oh, yeah. It's fucking great. Right? And, you know, they go back to Denver, and then, like, we really start to see, like, some really interesting things happening, sort of in tandem. Right? So Saoirse is, like, kind of real. Like, she loses sort of the friends at work, but kind of picks up and starts working with Miles, who is, I think, Elliot's brother or Elliot's brother, but he. Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

I mean, Luca can't stand it.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right? Well, none of them could.

[Sarah McLean]

Well, and then there's also the honey guy.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right, Exactly. Right. And so, like, we see Saoirse, like, sort of really committing to, like, actually, I might start this business with Miles. And they finally go and get the cat, Clementine, who's, like, adorable, and Luke is like, I'm not even really a cat person, and then immediately is like, a cat person. Right?

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And, you know, and. And. But at the same time, the other part that happens is they start having sex, but only under very restricted circumstances, which is because the first time it happens is on their way out of town in Wyoming. Right? So, like, they're like, she.

[Sarah McLean]

She's emotional.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. But also, it's really hot. The night before, I think they have. They go meet her mom. She's, like, masturbating or has, like, a toy in her room. And Luca comes in and she basically, like, sits on his lap. She's naked and he's fully clothed. And she just, like, gets herself off, like, kind of with his help. And then they go to, like, this awful lunch. And then, I mean, go home and sort of, like, lick her wounds. And the next day, they're, like, about to, like, get on the, you know, the road to Wyoming, and he, like, turns the other way and they pull into a fucking motel and he just destroys her. They just have, like, the most intense. Like, it's just like this epic sex. Like, she was like, I can't believe I have to sit on a fucking motorcycle for four hours. Destroyed me. But it was worth it. And then when they get back to Denver, they essentially only have sex in

[Sarah McLean]

hotels because they're home at lunch.

[Jennifer Prokop]

At lunch, like the Davenport or whatever, right? You can't have sex at home. That's somehow breaking Luca's rules, right?

[Sarah McLean]

Because that's, like. Then that's where marriage would hap. Like, that would make it real.

[Jennifer Prokop]

If. So somehow these being restricted to hotels is not going to be emotional. I. Listen, this, to me, is the purest of romance reasons, right?

[Sarah McLean]

Exactly.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It makes perfect sense.

[Sarah McLean]

No one but these two People.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Exactly. Then it's fine.

[Sarah McLean]

Exactly.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And then the other part, in terms for Luca, you know, he's late at work every night, or he comes home and then disappears again, and she finally gets up the nerve to ask him where he is going or where he's been, and it turns out that he is an artist. And I really love this Secret artist.

[Sarah McLean]

Secret artist in his secret apartment.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Sign me up. He's got a skin. I have a secret apartment in the same building where I do my secret art sculpting.

[Sarah McLean]

Oh, wait.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Before we get to that, though, I

[Sarah McLean]

want to go back to the family moment, because I have something to say about Heated Rivalry.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Mm.

[Sarah McLean]

Which is so everybody. I have finally watched Heated Rivalry. I finished a book and then immediately watched Heated Rivalry.

[Jennifer Prokop]

She really did. It was amazing. Very gratifying.

[Sarah McLean]

And I joined the text thread with Adriana and Joanna and Jen and I just. And they were all like, yeah, we know. But I still just, like, verbally vomited into the text thread.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It's great.

[Sarah McLean]

So I'm. I am one of them now. But the. But it was interesting because I watched it with Eric, and so. And there was the scene where. The scene at the cottage when, like, Shane's dad turns out.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes. Oh, boy.

[Sarah McLean]

And I mean, and what you need to know about this is that Eric, everyone's favorite podcast producer, has, like, a deep level, like, the level of embarrassment that he would feel for being caught in that situation in, like, it is so deep seated in Eric that he was like, I would, like, levitate off the planet. Like, I would have walked into that lake. And that is the end of that. Right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Put rocks in my pocket and walked into the lake.

[Sarah McLean]

Exactly. And so Shane is melting down in that scene, and he. And Eric is like, yes. Shane is behaving completely reasonably amazing.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Shane, like, bent over, hyperventilating.

[Sarah McLean]

Very reasonable, very relatable. So anyway, so then basically. So there's this whole moment where, you know, in. In heat of rivalry, where Shane is like, I have to go. I have to go and talk to them. And Ilya's like, I'll come with you. And Shane and Eric is like, absolutely not. And I was like, no, Eric, it's romance. He has to go, yes. And Eric was like, that's crazy. And I was like, that's romance, my friend.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Romance.

[Sarah McLean]

This is the show.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Like, yeah, right.

[Sarah McLean]

Whatever.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah McLean]

Whatever is about to happen.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And then, of course, when Ilya said

[Sarah McLean]

we're lovers, Eric was like, no.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Shane, like, literally, like, curly, like, desiccating. Like, literally desiccating at that moment. Right. Like, he's like, there's no more moisture in my body. Edges is all gone now. Oh, that's amazing.

[Sarah McLean]

So I did have this moment. So that's what I wanted to say is like, God, this moment, this, like, parent.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

Moment is really. It is bedrock to romance where there is family.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes. Issue. Yeah. Well, and I think the important thing about that moment is not just right, like, we. Locke stands up for her, too. Right.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah, of course. Her brother.

[Jennifer Prokop]

But to have Luca do it and, like, in. Really, I'm your family now with no information. Yeah. Just, like, understanding this is all wrong. And I don't like any of it. And I think that he is able to understand that, like, whatever strife his parents might be undergoing right now, they would never have treated him or his sister or. Right. That way. And so it's really like a. It's like a really beautiful moment. And then he, like, tears her up. And I am not set about it. So anyway, she figures out that he's got a secret sculpture room, you know, and all of this is like, really, from here on in, it's like, okay, to use an Olympics metaphor, now we're just like, these two are just rushing downhill at top speed, right? Like, they, you know, they have sex in the apartment. They, like. Right. Like, all of a sudden, all of the kind of rules have fallen by the wayside because these two are falling in love with each other and really love each other.

[Sarah McLean]

Like. Yes. Can't keep their hands off each other. But also, like, are deeply into each. Like, they're charmed by each other. They laugh with each other. I mean, Luca can't stop referring to her as his wife. Like, it's just. I mean, these two are. They're forever and ever and ever. Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right. I mean, even Clementine and Dad understands

[Sarah McLean]

of the way through the book at the. At this point, you're like, these two are.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

For the long haul.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And so then the question is. Is like, okay, well, so what's going to happen, right? What is going to, like, disrupt the apple cart? That they are happily. You know, sort of. The sex is great. Right. Her job is great. They've got this awesome cat they both love. Right. It's great. Well, then we get. And I would say, listen, sometimes things like this, like, work or don't for me, I think. But then we get essentially a crisis in the making with Clara and her husband. Correct. And there's been some hints.

[Sarah McLean]

This worked for me because it did. The character worked for me, too. The character work for Clara and her husband, from the beginning was correct. Right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It didn't come out of nowhere. Like, once it all sort of happens, you realize, like, oh, like. And it's like, kind of interesting work. Right? Like, Clara kind of married someone that felt, like, safe and stable, and now it turns out that he's not at all. And I won't even, like, really spoil, like, exactly what they discovered, but it's.

[Sarah McLean]

It's a little bit crazy.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, Right. Like, here's what I will say in all of these books, and I kind of respect that. This is just like a craft decision that Julia Woolf makes. Every single one of these books ends up essentially in. Like, like, essentially makes a hard right into melodrama, right? Where there's like a really, like, really super dramatic, like, sort of thing that kind of, like, comes into play, which

[Sarah McLean]

now I have to, like, now this many books into Julia Woolf, I'm like, oh, this is. This is stylistic.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, and. Exactly. And it worked. And sometimes that works better than others. Like, I think it's really effective in this book. I did not find it as effective in the first book. Right. Where the guy shows up. It doesn't matter. So anyway, and the reason that it's important is because this sends Luca into a crisis with his family, who he loves and has always loved. And they've supported him, and now he understands that it is his job to support them. And so his sister finds out this really, you know, insane news about her husband goes into, like, labor, right? Like, you know, it's like a tear, you know, sort of like, you know, the FBI is involved. Like, there's like a whole lot going on. And what he then wants is for Saoirse at that moment to say, yes, I love you. I'm committed. You know, like, he then needs something to fill him up, because he is now giving everything to his family, and he really cannot see how shitty he's being to her.

[Sarah McLean]

Well, because, listen, the sister in law goes into labor.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

And he's like, I need to focus on my family right now. And she's like, I know her too. Like, I want to be here. I want to help. I want to. Is she okay? Like, I want to. And he's like, I don't think you're understanding. This is my family and I need to be with them. And you don't need to. You are not welcome here. Well, I don't think he says it quite that way. He says something like, I don't want you here.

[Jennifer Prokop]

First he goes to the hospital, and she's like, she's like, can't you just wait for me? And he's like, no. And so she has to drive. She's separately. And then she's like sitting there all kind of alone in this room. And he comes out and he's like

[Sarah McLean]

in his head going, she hasn't told me she's staying. And he's like, this mother. And she. She's like this motherfucker.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

Is push actively pushing me away?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. And again, I given like the reason this worked for me. Is it like you said?

[Sarah McLean]

Right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Like the seeds of this are set up at. At from the moment they decide to get married.

[Sarah McLean]

Saoirse has been pushed away by her mother her whole life. She. And so she has actively pushed herself away from people.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah McLean]

Despite the obvious character. I mean, again, the character work here is so thoughtful. Despite the fact that she is constantly giving herself to people because she's searching for that companionship.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah McLean]

And it's just. And he is like, he's just a mess.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, he's just a mess because he

[Sarah McLean]

also didn't see the. The one piece of information that's important about the brother in law is that he didn't see that the brother in law was actually doing something that like was actively taking down.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

The company.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. Right. Not just his. I mean it. So it's like the layers and layers. He sort of. Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

I mean, just terrible.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So. Right.

[Sarah McLean]

He.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So Luca basically says to her, I don't want you here. And now listen, this is also very smart at applauding level because you need a witness for this. And so she stumbles away, like sort of shocked and upset and horrified and sad. And Elliot is like, where are you going? And she says to him, luca doesn't want me here. And Elliot is like. Like calms her down and like she kind of gets it together.

[Sarah McLean]

Who is like very logical, is like, yes.

[Jennifer Prokop]

No, that can't possibly right.

[Sarah McLean]

Can't be true.

[Jennifer Prokop]

That can't possibly be right. So she leaves, goes home, packs her bags, leaves a note with the doorman to watch the cat and like takes off for Wyoming, essentially, like, I can't be here. I don't. I'm. And. And she leaves this note that's like very dignified and you don't get to read it till Luca finds it. But I really liked the note because it admits that she is heartbroken. It's not like, I'm running away, here's where I'm going. But I am just. I'm heartbroken and I. This is broken me and I just need some time. And I. I guess you do, too. And I hope this isn't the end, but she clearly doesn't really know what it is. So then, you know, days pass. Like, Luca. Like, the baby is born. And Luca is like. And finally his family's like, you got to go home. And, you know, he gets home and is like, where's my wife?

[Sarah McLean]

Where's my cat?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Where's my cat? The doorman is like, oh, miss, you know, Luca, you're home. Great. Like, the cat's been fine and that. And Luca, you can, like, literally see his brain be like. Like, what. What do you. Cat's been fine. And, you know, the doorman is Then like, freeze. Like, oh, I've said something. And then, you know, I think it's Elliot, who's like, well, I saw her leave, and she said, you didn't want her there. And then all of a sudden, it's like, right. A wave of the dumbass. Right? That he says that he had. That he said, what a dummy. What a dummy. And so, you know, he goes to Wyoming and he gets his wife back. And I thought it was great.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah, it's delicious. It is a really fun.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

Deeply satisfying read. Like, it works on every level. Every character is like, the right version of itself. I mean, I just was. I'll be honest.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It's really fun.

[Sarah McLean]

It was a real. I had a great week reading all these books.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. One thing that I. Now, this is really funny. So I did. At the end of this book, it tells you, like, Locke and Elena's book is whatever one. Right. And they've been married at this point for.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah, I did read that. I went back and read that one.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Well, and then I'm gonna tell. I. I didn't. I didn't read it yet. Like, I sort of was like, oh, I'm interested in that. And then I was kind of like, what's she been writing since? And this is where I'm going to tell you. Okay. The next series is Locke and Elena's kids. And I was like, wait, these names sound familiar. Hannah and Caleb and Phoebe.

[Sarah McLean]

Oh, they're like children in this series. They are like, this is not for Sarah now.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And here's. It was really funny because I. It has not been for me either.

[Sarah McLean]

I support everyone. But that is for Sarah now.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And here's the part, though, that's really interesting, because we were talking about this at my library presentation this weekend. One of the. And this was like, Susan and I maybe were talking about it in the car. One of the things is.

[Sarah McLean]

Well, this is not an uncommon thing.

[Jennifer Prokop]

No, it's not. But I will tell you one of the things I find fascinating and strange about it, and it was very gratifying to like, sort of talk to someone who had the same experience. Okay. The first time I came in contact with this in the 80s. You know, you could write in the 80s about like a second generation because technology actually wasn't that different. A phone is a phone, a plane is a plane. Right. But I feel like one of the things I find really fascinating now about these, like, second generation books is how there is absolutely no attempt on the part of the author to think, like, what is it really going to look like?

[Sarah McLean]

Oh, you want it to be five years? So wait, here's my question. This is set in the future.

[Jennifer Prokop]

No, but I'm saying it would have to be. The books about Locke and Elena's kids, who I've not read, have to now be 30 years in the future. The year is now 2056. So I think part of why I struggle a little with these with like second generation books now again, now, listen, everybody. I've not read these, so maybe she, Julia Wolf, in fact, has their. Maybe they are 239. What do I know? But like, technology is changing.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

What is the world like?

[Sarah McLean]

I would be very interested in hearing more from authors who have made this choice. In contemporary, obviously in historical. This is a non.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Like everybody.

[Sarah McLean]

It doesn't work for me in historical either. Like, this is one of my biggest. Sure. Sticking points with historical. I have a personal Sarah problem with second generation romances, which is why people are always like, are you gonna write the kit? No, I'm never gonna write. Like, I'm never gonna do that. So that. Setting that aside, right. It feels difficult. It feels weird to me because contemporary romance should I think in my head whenever I pick up a contemporary. Like if I pick up a contemporary written today, in 2016, in 20. In 2000. If I pick up a contemporary that's written in. In 1980.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah McLean]

I, in my head am translating it to now. Right? So like even those McNaught books that I talk about all the time, okay, which, like, do obviously, like, they reference like 1990s celebrities. Like, I get it. It's not now, but I, like, in my head can say like, but it is now. Like, she picked up the phone to make a phone call and like, it's a cell phone. Like, it's fine.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

Because it's. It feels like it's supposed to be now.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. Right. So I think I'm like, kids, like, what?

[Sarah McLean]

So I guess my big question is, and if you are an author who has done this and is or is doing this, has made the choice to do this, I'm very curious as to why. Because what is the appeal of doing a second generation for a contemporary story when you could just like invent a new family?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right. Well, not.

[Sarah McLean]

Or give those people friends, you know, like just keep expanding their grown up world.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think this is like interesting, right? So like let's take Sebastian St. Vincent. Right. Like, so they have to be on the.

[Sarah McLean]

You mean the Duke of Kingston?

[Jennifer Prokop]

I do mean the Duke of Kingston. He. They have to take a carriage for 800 hours or regret and agreeing with hot bricks because that's the only way you're gonna get there. But there's a railroad in like the next generation that they are taking. And so it kind of worked for me because it was clear that like the books were moving forward in time. Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

At the same time. So the characters and characters were moving forward in time.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right. But like when I read.

[Sarah McLean]

Okay.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I did not read the whole Graham effect. Right. That's like the second generation of the deal. Like Hannah and Garrett from the deal.

[Sarah McLean]

That's the one that I always think about.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And I was like. I was like, because it's 30 years

[Sarah McLean]

in the future, but it's not written like it's the future. It's just written like a contemporary. But it's about.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah McLean]

This is a challenge for me. Yes. And it's a challenge. Like it's interesting.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It's a world building issue. Everybody.

[Sarah McLean]

I mean, I understand. It is not a world building issue for me. Like, what's interesting is it's a challenge for both of us, but for completely different reasons. I. I think here's what I will

[Jennifer Prokop]

say is I have the same issue. I don't really need or want to read second generation.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

But I do think if you are going to now it's a world building issue. You have to move the time. Yeah.

[Sarah McLean]

You have to write future.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah McLean]

You're basically writing sci fi.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah McLean]

I mean, listen, I don't know. Couldn't be me happy for everybody who enjoys that and wants to write it. I don't full. I don't really understand it. But enjoy yourselves. I'm. Listen, I'm so happy you weirders are out there doing your thing.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I mean, I just was. It was really interesting once I was like, oh, wait, Caleb, this is like that little kid who's constantly like, fucking insulting Luca. Like, hilariously, this five year old literally at one point was like, we don't have any beds that are your size. They're all too big for you. Essentially, calling him a small man is fucking funny as hell. He's like five. I was like, wait, that kid is now, you know, a grown up. But okay, but how?

[Sarah McLean]

Well, I bet he's a smart ass.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I mean, like, that's a great. It will. But listen, I am sort of fascinated by like, again, like, context collapse. Like time. Like time has no meaning. I know people say that, but it has meaning to me. So there you go. It's interesting.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah. But I do think, like, like I said, like, when you read a Judith McNaught, when you read Perfect, are you reading his? Is it historical for you?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, I really am. Like, this is 1990.

[Sarah McLean]

Okay, interesting.

[Jennifer Prokop]

You know, based on the. The descriptions of, like, phones and technology and clothing. Clothing, clothing. Hot. Yeah. Shoulder pads from miles. Shoulder pads, feathered hair. You know, amazing. Corvettes are cool. Like, what can I tell you are still cool. It's fine. So, yeah, everybody, this book is fun. I hope you go read it.

[Sarah McLean]

And Julia Wolfe, thanks so much for the. If you're listening, thanks so much for this amazing week of my life. I had a great time.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, you know what? I feel like she has a huge backlist and now this is a person who I'm like, I'm looking for something new. Like, it's nice to have those people. Like a list of people. You can just be like, I wonder what I could read by the software I really like.

[Sarah McLean]

Yeah, exactly. I am excited, Everybody. I'm Sarah McLean. I'm here with my friend Jen Prokop. We are fated of mates. You are listening to us on whatever podcasting app you listen to us on. You can listen to us every week on that podcasting app. On Wednesdays, that's when new Episodes drop. If you want to follow us on the Internet, you can do that on Instagram, Instagram and threads, thetamates Pod or on blueskytamates. You can also find all the books we referenced today on the [e-mail]. if you click on Episodes, there's a list of all the books we talked about today. There's a list. There will be a list of, like, all the other things that we talked about. If there. If there are articles or whatever that are related to them, those will be there. And then what else you can. And oh, if you really love talking about books and you love romance novels, then you can join our Patreon, which gets you one extra episode a month and also gets you access to our Discord, where a few thousand other romance readers hang out all, all day, all week, all year long, talking about romance novels. It's very fun over there. You can learn more about [e-mail] Patreon. Other than that, is that it? Are we done? That's it. Awesome. We love you all. Stay safe out there. Stay warm out there. If you hang out after this week's episode, you will get a sneak peek of what in the Smut and we will be here next week.

[Elle]

Welcome to what in the Smut Podcast,

[K]

where the books are home horny, and so are we. I'm Elle.

[Elle]

And I'm K. So what do we got going on in the Smutverse this week?

[K]

It's been a crazy couple of weeks online. First, let's shout out HM Wolf, the black author of the wildly popular book Daggermouth, for landing a seven figure trad deal for both Daggermouth and its sequel, Python. This is a huge accomplishment, and given all the discourse I've seen online about Daggermouth, I think it's a fabulous slap in the face to her haters.

[Elle]

That's amazing.

[K]

I know. That's huge.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Huge.

[K]

Absolutely incredible. And just like, oh, you love to see it. You love to see it. I know we talk a lot about indie versus trad, and there's like a lot of discourse about, like, how big of a gatekeeping community traditional publishing is. But, like, it's still really, really exciting to see somebody make it this big and especially a woman of color. To see her get her flowers is just very exciting.

[Elle]

So is Daggermouth out? Was Daggermouth indie published?

[K]

Yes, Daggermouth was indie published at the end of last year. It was like, really hyped and really, really big and is, like, very highly reviewed. And the. I don't know when the sequel is due.

[Sarah McLean]

Well, if it just got picked up,

[Elle]

probably not for a couple years.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, good for them.

[Elle]

That's awesome.

[K]

Yeah, right? Elsewhere in the Smutverse, Amazon affiliates will no longer pay out for links to romances with explicit sex. So there goes our only other form of revenue on this bootstrapped podcast.

[Elle]

Yeah, I actually tried to find the link for the one we did today, and it's like, this is not.

[K]

Here's a reminder that you can find us on Buy Me a Coffee. And that link will be in the show notes, as always, and also a thank you for sitting through whatever advertisement gets slotted into the little dings that'll appear right after this Segment.

[Sarah McLean]

Yep.

[K]

Finally, let's talk about Anytime Author promotions. This organization runs a plethora of bookish events across the country, including getting Witchy with it, Dreaming Dirty Book Blast Books and chocolate, et cetera, and is now watching as authors are pulling out left and right. The owner of AAP, Virginia Lee, posted a 40 minute Facebook Live where she was actively driving and ranting that ICE's Operation Metro surge in Minneapolis was not that bad because she hadn't seen much evidence of it when she drove through town. Yes, As a reminder, ICE's incursion into the city has left multiple US citizens dead and thousands of people detained in inhuman detention centers without access to critical medication and adequate food. Despite her half hearted attempts to backtrack, Internet sleuths also found her comments across such pages as liberal tears, implying that Renee Goode deserved to be shot. This showing of True colors has left authors in a difficult position as AAP is refusing refunds for table fees. Given that authors trying to withdraw due to the organizers comments are doing so willingly.

[Elle]

I mean, I can understand that, like them not getting their money back. I can get it. Virginia Lee, I mean she made a choice and there's consequences to that. So like what the money she's made off of those authors so far, like I can understand it's probably already been earmarked for something else or been spent for something, but it's still gonna affect her in the future. People aren't going to want to work with her moving forward. So like good for the authors that are backing out and probably are like fine, you what? I don't need, I don't need my money back because.

[K]

Right, but some people, like, some people are in a position where they can't afford not to go because they've already paid those costs. They've already paid for travel, paid for accommodation. Like it's, it's difficult like, and this organization has already received, I think a year ago there was a lot of discourse around the fact that their events are not accessible and they've done no like accommodations. And so there was already kind of like some a bad taste in people's mouths about working with them. But this is just next level.

[Elle]

It all comes back to like another people think that doing an event like that is just fun and don't necessarily have any experience in oh yeah, planning events and then don't seem to learn from their mistakes when they plan the next one.