A (5:55)

Well, that I think is, is absolutely critical because take a look at what is happening and we'll talk more about this in our J schools across the country. It's been happening for some time. You know, I like the fact that you're getting some students who are coming in with at least a broader worldview than we have seen from the, the big publications, the corporate media outlets, New York Times, Washington Post and others. But I can't help but think, Ryan, when I, I take a look at, oh, for instance, the New York Times, as you mentioned before, the media model is changing of trying to find different ways to capture different audiences. And, and the New York Times a while back purchased the athletic. I don't know if you saw the story of late, but there are some, some very frustrated people with the atlant athletic There was a, a reporter there who was covering the Australian Open, a tennis tournament, and asking each young American tennis player one anti trump question after the other. And to their credit, these tennis players said, you know, I'm a tennis player, I'm in the middle of a tournament here. I don't want to be distracted and I don't want to be a headline from somewhere. And they actually called the guy out. And this, this was a young reporter. Again, if this is where the New York Times continues to want to go, then I think they're going to continue to alien their market players. Again, this, this reporter was asking things like, well, you know, a lot of things have been happening over the last year. Tennis player, how do you feel about representing America and the American flag in this time period? And that is not, to me, a legitimate question for a tennis player to answer.

B (8:05)

It's, it's an odd person and location to ask that. Yeah, well, I, I things on that one is that the New York Times's business model is very different than pretty much any other publication in the country. They're making money off games and recipes. Games and recipes print money for the New York Times. And so they're not thinking or, or sort of what I was saying about maybe we need to look at capturing new audiences. That's not really where they're at. They found new audiences who want to pay for other products they have. And so that's just a unique thing about incentives driving the New York Times. Just look a little different. The other thing that I would say is that the news side of publications, you know, often are, and this might seem like, you know, it's the opposite of how it should be, but sometimes the news sides can be more ideological or ideologically driven than opinion pages.

A (9:20)

Yeah.

B (9:21)

And so, you know, if you look at sort of some of the headlines coming out of CBS News, everyone there is very frustrated by, I think, very reasonable. Not everyone there, the 10 anonymous sources or whoever they are, are very, you know, they're struggling with these very, I think, basic, straightforward changes that Barry Weiss and her team are asking them to make. So, you know, I think news pages have perhaps a longer path ahead of them as far as regaining the trust of the public. Whereas opinion pages, perhaps because they're just more open about, hey, this is what we think are actually kind of an easier place in many circumstances to have a diversity of views.

A (10:14)

This is what I like about what you folks do at the foundation, excuse me, the Fund for American Studies center, and in the excellence in journalism, what I like is that you are bringing in and trying to position kids, young people, I should say, because I'm an old guy and so I say kids. But to get journalists to think about the full story here more than anything, not to be another activist journalism. That's what I think of when I think of the guy at the Athletic who's asking these really stupid questions of, of young tennis players in, in the Australian Open. That's what I think of when I think of Don Lemon. And we have a little audio from Don Lemon of late, who has gotten himself into a good deal of, of trouble for claiming to be an independent journalist. And I, I have to chuckle at the term journalist. And I always have to put in air quotes when I think of Don Lemon, but that's, that's a matter of opinion. But here he is going in following the, the mob storming a, a Church in St. Paul as they go in and in the middle of the church services and scream at the congregants and kids are, know what's going to happen. Because we've seen this story, unfortunately, at more than a few churches in this country where someone walks in and they have weapons and start shooting the place up. So you don't know what's going on. Don Lemon is covering this and he, he's doing it live streaming, and he says, well, here, I don't care what you say, Pastor, about how this is wrong to invade a church and church services. Why? I, I, I've got the, the First Amendment on my side, and that's the kind of stuff that we've seen. But let's listen to a little bit of that, that incident here with, with Don Lemon.

C (12:47)

What do you think of this?

D (12:48)

I mean, this is unacceptable. It's sh, it's shameful to, to interrupt a public gathering of Christians in worship. But there were folks who will say, I have to take care of my flock.

C (13:02)

Listen, we live in a, there's a constitution in the First Amendment to freedom of speech and freedom to assemble and protest.

D (13:08)

We're here to worship. We're here to worship Jesus because that's the hope of these cities, that's the hope of the world, is Jesus Christ.

C (13:14)

I want to be very respectful. Please don't push me, though.

D (13:16)

We're here. We're here to worship Jesus. That's why we're here.

B (13:20)

Okay?

D (13:20)

That's why we're here. That's what we're about.

C (13:22)

What do you think Jesus would be understanding?

D (13:24)

And we're about love these folks. We're about spreading the love of Jesus.

C (13:28)

But did you try to talk to.

D (13:29)

Them as a Christian is willing to talk?

C (13:31)

Okay.

D (13:32)

I have to take care of my church and my family. So I asked this. You actually would also leave this building.

C (13:37)

You don't want us to chronicle. I'm always worship. I'm a Christian. We're here.

D (13:41)

Well, we're here to worship. We're here to worship.

C (13:43)

Okay, thank you very much.

D (13:44)

I appreciate it.

A (13:46)

I'm sure as someone who follows journalism very closely, this, this popped up on your radar. Is. Is this where so called independent journalism is heading today? Invading churches?

B (14:02)

I hope not. It's. But it is. It's interesting, you know, that Don Lemon doesn't understand the First Amendment very well and sort of the difference between public and private spaces and a protest and a sort of, you know, disruption of other people's rights to assemble and worship. You know, I, I'm a little concerned that he didn't get a very good education at CNN about these sort of rules, but I would say that, look, independent journalism first. I, you know, I always question what being independent means. If you're embedding with a protest group, it doesn't seem particularly independent to me. And you kind of have to wonder how that's getting organized, how he ended up there. You know, it of course, is not at sort of the extreme level of the example I'm about to use, which is much worse. But it sort of reminds me with the reporters who were embedded with the Palestinians on October 7th. How did they end up.

A (15:18)

Oh, wow. Yeah.

B (15:19)

You know, how do you end up? Are you really independent if you're in the right place, in the right time to cover a story like that? Right. And so, you know, I think the, so I think the main thing is that with independent journalists, one challenge, and this is both on, on left and right, I just think, you know, you saw a particularly agrees, like, egregious breach of journalistic ethics with Don Lemon in this case. But all independent journalists actually need to learn and inform themselves of what journalistic ethics look like, especially if you're going to try to be confrontational in a setting, you know, that like this. You know, I think maybe for decent people or people with manners, you know, you wouldn't even consider this. But I think, you know, just understanding the First Amendment would have prevented Don Lemon from making this mistake. And now, you know, he's will likely face some kind of lawsuit, some sort of consequences. And, you know, I, I doubt he, he really understood what he was getting himself into.

A (16:48)

Well, Don Lemon has been down that road before, let's listen to a little bit of this. It's Don Lemon trying to explain that coming to the United States illegally without documentation, coming in is not a criminal offense. And some folks that he was asking about this on. Put him. Put him straight on that. Okay.

E (17:13)

Crossing the border illegally is not a crime.

C (17:15)

No, it's not a criminal act. It's a misdemeanor.

E (17:17)

So why are they being sent back and saying that they're breaking the law?

C (17:21)

That's the point.

E (17:22)

Okay. As somebody that we don't know if.

C (17:24)

They'Re breaking the law because they won't tell. There's no due process. Where's the evidence? That's the whole point. And if they are breaking the law, most people will say, okay, then they need to go if they're criminals. But if they're not, why are they being rounded up and sent out? Especially when he promised to. To deport the criminals, and now he's not doing that.

E (17:42)

Yeah, I don't think we're going. So misdemeanor is not.

C (17:46)

It's not a criminal act. No, if you get charged with a misdemeanor, that's not a criminal charge at all.

E (17:50)

Then if it's not a criminal act.

C (17:53)

Because we have different levels of crime, everything is not the same.

E (17:56)

So it is crime.

C (17:57)

No, it's just different. We have different levels of. I shouldn't say crime, but it's not. It's not. You're not. It's not a crime. You're not breaking the law. I mean, you are breaking the law, but it's not a criminal act.

B (18:08)

No, if you're speeding, drinking, get pulled.

C (18:10)

Over, dui, that's not a criminal act. Well, no, if you're speeding is a misdemeanor. Right.

B (18:16)

So still breaking the law.

C (18:17)

Okay, well, if you want to. If you want to qualify that, we're doing semantics. But what I'm saying. But what I'm trying to tell you is everything is not the same. It's all not one thing.

B (18:25)

But is it the law?

C (18:27)

What is it the law that.

B (18:28)

What is it law to come over legally? Is there a law?

C (18:33)

There are. There are rules that. Processes that you should follow.

B (18:36)

Yeah.

C (18:36)

So you're breaking rules, you're breaking the rules, but you're not necessarily breaking a law.

A (18:40)

We are talking today on this edition of the Federalist Radio Hour with Ryan Wolf, director of the Fund for American Studies center for Excellence in Journalism. Ryan joins us today for a conversation on fixing the fourth estate that includes the kinds of fellowships and programs that. That the Fund for American Studies is running like the New Journalism Excellence Fellowship on the other side of what we were talking about with Don Lemon or, you know, it's the same, it's in the same arena. It's independent journalism. What did you think of Nick Swisher? Excuse me? What was his name? Nick's. Nick Swisher.

B (19:23)

Shirley.

A (19:24)

Nick Shirley. Excuse me. I don't know why I want to call him Swisher for some reason, but Nick Shirl, what did you think of his independent journalism that kind of broke open or at least put increased focus on this fraud scandal hitting Minnesota. And what he really did was what they we used to do when we were young journalists, and that was go to places, shoe leather approach.

B (19:51)

Yeah, I love the spirit of it. I mean, I love that he went out and, you know, brought a camera and went and actually dug in and investigated, you know, these, these areas that I like that he had the, the older guy with him who did all the research.

A (20:08)

Yeah, right.

B (20:09)

And, and so he, he knew where to go and Nick went and, and did the videos and, you know, I, I, I think that's great. You know, I think sort of at our programs, you know, we definitely encourage that kind of go out, find the story, do the job spirit. At the same time, I think, you know, there's, there's a role for kind of some, some more serious investigative journalism that's, let's just say more, more in the paperwork that, that can, you know, cross the T's and dot the I's on all this stuff. But, but also, would anyone pay attention to the story if it was just faith work? Probably not. Right? So it takes, it takes lots of different people. And, you know, I think someone who's just going out and asking questions and tracking down leads, I mean, that's what journalism is all about.

F (21:11)

Do not believe government numbers. The Watchdog on Wall street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day, Chris helps unpack the connection between politics and the economy and how it affects your wallet. It's not just about the CPI inflation numbers. Government is now saying health insurance is down by 19% over the last five years. Does anybody believe that whether it's happening in D.C. or down on Wall street, it's affecting you financially? Be informed. Check out the Watchdog on Wall street podcast with Chris Murkowski on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast?

A (21:42)

Well, I'm often reminded, and I've worked with a lot of good editors and I've worked with some not so good editors over the years, and I'm sure that all of those folks would have varying op of me. But I think about the CEO of the Federalist, Sean Davis, I think what he says is, is right on for young journalists, for journalists of all kinds. He says, you know, the sources, good. All fine and good, but give me the documentation. And the way that I think an excellent journalist goes about things is they get the documentation to back up the stories from the sources and the sources or the faces of that story. Oftentimes that's really what I hope to do as a journalist, what I've hoped to do throughout my very, very long career in this business. And frankly, that's what I'd like to see from journalists moving forward. Although we're seeing so much from a lot of corporate media outlets where they seem to have to take a side, particularly in the Trump era. Is that getting any better? I know you referenced some of these other areas where it's really more so about making sure that you don't lose half your audience like Jimmy Kimmel and Stephen Colbert have done in, in the news arena. Are they getting the message? Because you look at the polls, Ryan, and you see the news business is somewhere around Congress in terms of popularity.

B (23:26)

Yeah, it's, you know, trust in pretty much every American institution is quite low. You know, there's a few that have tried to or have done a little bit better in maintaining trust. But in almost any American institution, if you look at the polls from 20 or 30 years ago, compare those poll numbers to today, they're going to be lower. You know, so the media, I think is, is one of the ones that has gone down the most. And, and there's a lot of reasons for it. I think, you know, some of it's, we see more of the behind the scenes. You know, reporters on Twitter express their personal opinions 247 because they think that's their job or part of their job. And you know, they're used to be policies where reporters couldn't register to vote and how to keep their personal opinions to themselves. And these things all kind of protected media institutions and helped them see journalists as being more independent. And so I think a lot of it is these older norms falling away, this sort of social media influencer culture coming in and replacing it. And so I think ultimately what you were saying about strong sourcing documentation, so not relying on anonymous sources for every story, which is seems to be the case more and more frequently. And you know, actually showing the public, hey, this is, you know, how we got this story. These are facts. You know, I think that's Great. And look, some outlets are trying to do different things, even if they might lean, you know, one way or the other. But the outlet semaphore has, you know, sort of the facts. The reporters take, you know, sort of a counter view all in a news article. So some places are trying to say, hey, how can we build trust and do things differently? But I think in politics, it's. It's quite hard these days for people to think that way. And, you know, I think a lot of the issues are very emotionally charged, you know, and it's hard for sort of, you know, rules, norms, facts, documentation to override the sort of emotional part of any contested political issue that you get into.

A (26:14)

I think you noted something that really has been emergent over the last few years. It probably goes back longer than that, but we've certainly really noticed them in the last election cycle, the influencer crowd. And I think the perfect example of that happened, you know, early on in the Trump administration when Trump turned to influencers to release what turned out to be a nothing burger of an Epstein report. And I think the administration really got burned on that. And I think the influencers got burned on that because what they brought to the public only further confused and infuriated the public. How much are influencers going to still be able to influence moving forward after incidents like that? And are there young people coming out of journalism school going, why did I go to journalism school? I just spent $150,000. I could just be an influencer?

B (27:19)

Well, I mean, I think you're going to see more and more of that. And, you know, I think the problem with influencers is that they're not reporters most of the time. And even if they do reporting in specific cases, they often don't have the experience, the tools, the, the knowledge that would be helpful to them and what they're trying to do. So, you know, I think one of the challenges for influencers is if you're trying to cover a news story, if you're trying to get documents from the federal government and you're trying to help an audience understand them, you know, one thing I'll say about influencers is they probably tend to have a certain ego that would not lend them to take my advice, which is to let someone who has more of a journalistic background actually help you look through these things and work with your audience. You know, but that, that would probably create a better outcome. And so, you know, I think the future probably lends towards, you know, influencer brands, but perhaps with more of an actual Journalistic staff for the ones who want to get into that business. Although I think for many, for many influencers, the news business is not really something they want to actually put resources into. So it'll be interesting to see where the rubber hits the road and whether sort of influencers in conservative social media spaces, whether they think they are a news organization and they want to do real reporting, or if they are sort of amplifiers of sort of actual news.

A (29:18)

Outlets that are doing the reporting themselves, is the influencer. Ryan, is that born out of something that. And I worked with a news organization, a national news organization, many years ago. One of the things they talked about is enlisting the assistance of. Of what they called citizen journalists. And those were, you know, people who weren't really trained to be journalists, but they would show up at city council meetings or county board meetings, and they would gather documents and they would roll video and get stuff that, you know, because of shrinking budgets and resource issues that could assist in news coverage. Now, we had some great success with some of that. Some of it was really a pain in the tuchus because it made you have to work that much harder because you had to go back with certain people and verify everything, because a lot of times you would get something that really wasn't good. And sometimes you could get some things that could get you before, you know, a judge. So is this kind of the extension, the influencer movement, is that the extension of what has been called citizen journalism in this country?

B (30:38)

Sure, yeah. I mean, you know, it makes me think of the Elon Musk we. You know, you're the media now. And it's, it's, in a way, it's true just in the sense of anyone has a phone and can record something and can put it online for the world to see. And that's a power that, you know, didn't exist for the average person until, you know, the last really 15 years or so. So, you know, I think. I think that on one hand, that's true. The influencers are somewhat of an innovation. On top of that, in the sense of now you're. You're kind of having a little more concentration in who disseminates information, retweets, reposts, you know, that. That sort of thing. I think the stuff you're talking about, I think the media outlets, you know, and this was sort of like a early 2000 and tens late, you know, aughts phenomenon. They thought they would be the ones to disseminate that information from social media, but they sort of got out, competed, and Also lost a lot of trust in the last, you know, few decades. And I think that has led to influencers who have an audience that is maybe more niche, but really trust them and, and then they sort of look through, you know, they dig through the depths of X and you know, try to find content to, to tweet out. I think the problem is from a journalistic point of view, is that what you're saying, you need people who are going to actually verify things as being factual. One big challenge I think that's coming around is that AI is going to be a real game changer in this space as far as verifying facts and whether photos and videos are real. And so the value of real journalistic institutions, I think is going to increase again. But I think the question is who are people actually going to trust? And that's very contested.

A (33:10)

Yeah, indeed. I don't want to sound stodgy about this because I think some of the best reporters out there and in the past have been people who didn't necessarily come from a journalistic background. I mean, I, I, I can tell you for, for whatever my journalism is, is worth, my journalism career is, is worth. I didn't go to a journalism school. I, I went to school as an English major for sure. And then I kind of fell, you know, butt backwards into every broadcast and journalism job that I was ever in. And I learned, I learned on the job. And I think that's exactly what you are providing is the, Absolutely. Is the ability to really learn the craft, what it means to vet a story, what it means to talk to sources, to get information. I think that is what the Fund for American Studies center for Excellence in Journalism has done for a long time. But you mentioned AI and I would be remiss if I didn't ask you where that will lead us in journalism. You kind of touched upon it. But are you concerned at all that AI will eventually drive journalists out of business and then become, you know, again, that trust issue that we're dealing with?

B (34:37)

Sure. Well, there's kind of two ways to look at this question. One is kind of how does AI change the content that people consume? And there's sort of an optimist and a pessimist view of this. The AI optimists say, you know, it will kind of AI will optimize content for, you know, the people looking at it. So you'll get, the algorithms will produce sort of the perfect content that you want to see and you want to watch and it'll be so good and you'll Never stop watching. The other more pessimistic side says, you know, the AI slop thing is going to basically drive people off of social media. And I'm a little bit more in that camp. So I think in some ways that's an opportunity for people who are real people producing content themselves as opposed to, you know, AI content. And, but I think the, the question long term is, is, you know, what does it do to attention spans? What does it do to viewing habits? Do people watch tv? Do people read, you know, news websites or substacks or whatever it may be? You know, those, those are some hard questions, but I think. And it might get worse before it gets better, but I do think AI content is not very high quality and people are going to start seeking out quality and journalistic outlets can provide that. I think the other part is that there's a lot of people just the advent of AI is creating broader questions about technology use, period, and how much you should be using technology, how much you should be on your phone. You see this at a lot of, you know, schools that are banning phones, you know, in class now, for example. So, you know, part of me wonders if you'll see more people who want to, you know, read print publications. Kind of go back to a prior era. One magazine, tablet magazine, started printing recently nationally. So, you know, there may be a counter trend. I think the, but I think the main thing that AI shows us is that, you know, the future is going to be weird, it's going to be different and the kind of effects it can have are super wide ranging and all over the map. But the one thing that I can't do can yet to. And if it could do it, you know, it sort of might have a bit of a, you know, skynet quality to it. But I would say that, you know, you still need to get new information and news stories from human beings and reporters are going to be the ones who are going to do it. So I think if you were a news aggregator who doesn't do any original reporting work, your job is going to go away. And if you're relying on Google search traffic for your revenue, your revenue is going to go down because AI is changing all those things. But if you're someone who's doing the shoe leather reporting and talking to people and has sources and is breaking new news, then I think you'll always have a job. So, so for the journalism industry, I think it'll turn out okay, but I think for society at large, it'll be interesting to see what it does to sort of our idea of media and how it changes our consumption.

A (38:45)

News outlets will certainly be reporting on AI for the foreseeable future. But you're absolutely right, it's an imperfect technology, certainly at this point and I don't know if it'll ever be perfect. But yeah, for instance, the other day I was looking up some information on Eric Swalwell and I saw the AI photo that it brought had swallow with two faces and I. What's it. What? That's. Oh, wait a minute. That is correct. He does have two faces. That's right. He. He's a two faced politician. But that's neither here nor there. Let me close with this question for you because your. The core of your mission is the old Whitney Houston remake song. I believe the children are the future. That's what you guys, that's what you do every day. RJ schools, are any J schools getting the message that we don't need activist journalism anymore. We don't need one sided journalism anymore. Unless that is your operation and you're clear about it. Because I, I don't find that to a problem. It's when you have news organizations that claim to be down the middle reporting only the facts, but turn out to be activist journalists. What are we seeing in terms of J schools today?

B (40:09)

Journalism schools are pretty bad. They're sort of the worst, you know, in, in that they combined all the things you don't like about academia with all the things you don't like about the media. And so, you know, we tend to not work very much with journalism schools because there is this challenge of, you know, kind of understanding the biases in media that they don't seem to be really interested in. But also I would just say this, going to journalism school is not a great idea. I don't really recommend it to people like you were saying the best.

A (40:54)

Hallelujah, by the way. Hallelujah. You are singing, you are preaching to the choir.

B (40:59)

Because doing the job is the best way to learn, right? And you know, I think sort of higher education has created this model where everyone needs to go to college and get a master's degree and whatever they want to work in. Journalism is an old trade and really the apprenticeship model is still works really well in that. And so I think, you know, actually going and doing the job, you know, and we encourage that by students writing for the canvas publications we support interning with us, doing fellowships with us after graduate. That's the best way to learn. And so we often don't work with a lot of Actual journalism majors, which is another positive thing because they're studying philosophy, they're studying politics, economics, whatever it may be, and are learning real things in their classes. And then they can take that knowledge and do more with it as they write, as opposed to just learning about the craft of journalism, which there are some things to learn there, but it's not going to teach you as much as reading the great books and having a basic understanding of economics. That's way more, I think, essential to being a good writer and being a good journalist.

A (42:33)

Yeah, I only wish our members of Congress had the same concept of basic economics. That would be very helpful to the average American. Well, and that's why I appreciate, I really do, what you folks have done and continue to do at the Fund for American Studies and the center for Excellence in Journalism. Final point. You know, we talked about the new Journalism Excellence Fellowship, but that's just one of many programs that you're running to bring in the next generation of journalists.

B (43:09)

That's right, yes. So we, we do a lot, you know, we start on college campuses. So college students come, they write for. We have 30 campus publications that we sponsor or they can be individual student members and we get them plugged in with other opportunities to freelance and they come intern with us in the summer after that when they graduate. We have our rego fellowship at the Wall Street Journal, which these new fellowships are modeled after. So those are for young journalists with less five years of experience get sort of a job in the major leagues for nine months. And then from there we have a program called the Media Accelerator Fellowship. That's for young reporters in D.C. really helping them find their beat, learn more sort of on the ideas side about liberty and responsibility in journalism and just improve at their craft. And then we have the Robert Novak Fellowship, which is for more mid career journalists. And we support sort of long term investigative reporting projects through that program. So you know, starting from freshman year on campus to, you know, seven years into someone's professional career, we're there to help them be successful.

A (44:28)

You want to fix the fourth estate, that's how you do it. That's a big part of how you do it. Exactly what is being done and has been done for some time at the Fund for American Studies center for Excellence in Journalism. I want to thank our guests today for joining us. Ryan Wolf, director of the Fund for American Studies center for Excellence in Journalism. You've been listening to another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, senior elections correspondent at the Federalist. We'll be back more. We'll be back soon with more. Until then, stay lovers of freedom and anxious for the fray.

B (45:10)

Sam.