China’s War On Faith And Freedom

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Federalist Radio Hour
Episode: China’s War On Faith And Freedom
Date: May 15, 2026
Host: Matt Kittle
Guests: Sam Brownback (former Senator, governor, and U.S. Ambassador for International Religious Freedom), Francis Hui (Hong Kong activist and journalist)

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Overview

This episode delves deeply into China’s systematic campaign against religious faith and basic freedoms. Host Matt Kittle speaks with Sam Brownback about his new book, "China's War on Faith," which exposes the extent and brutality of religious persecution under the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). Later, Hong Kong activist Francis Hui shares her personal testimony of exile and the escalating repression in Hong Kong following the imposition of the National Security Law. The conversation spotlights both personal courage and the broader implications for global freedom.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Scope of Religious Persecution in China

Timestamps: 03:02 – 06:52

• Historical and Ongoing Repression: Sam Brownback outlines the staggering toll of the CCP's history—“The communist regime in China has killed more of its own people than any other regime in the history of mankind” (03:02)—with much of that directed at people of faith: Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, Falun Gong.
• Organ Harvesting: Brownback describes abuses "as horrific as organ harvesting of people that they've killed because they didn’t appreciate or approve of their faith" (03:31).
• Suppression as Authoritarian Control: The CCP views any faith or authority higher than the Party as existentially threatening. Brownback: “They fear religious freedom more than they fear our aircraft carriers or our nuclear weapons” (07:28).

2. The CCP’s Methods and Tech-Driven Surveillance

Timestamps: 06:52 – 08:11

• Digital Policing: China has constructed "the most expansive digital police states known to mankind... expanding into other parts of China and exporting that technology to other authoritarians" (07:08).
• Billions Spent on Surveillance: The CCP spares no cost to surveil and suppress potential dissent, especially faith communities.

3. Personal Stories of Resistance

Timestamps: 08:36 – 11:05

• Peter Xu – “The Billy Graham of China”: Imprisoned five times, brutalized to the brink of death, forced to sign a statement denouncing his faith, he instead replied:

  “Thank you for allowing me to participate in the sufferings of Christ.”
  (Sam Brownback, 09:18)

• Wang Yi: A public intellectual turned pastor, imprisoned for a sermon declaring even Xi Jinping must repent. Now serving a nine-year sentence.

4. False Hopes of Economic Liberalization Leading to Political Reform

Timestamps: 12:12 – 14:58

• Brownback reflects on the belief that economic integration and modernization would induce civil liberties in China:

  “I bought it for a while in the 1990s, early 2000s... but really, what you've seen is Xi Jinping has become another Mao...”
  (13:17)

5. Modern Genocides in China

Timestamps: 15:29 – 16:43

• Uyghurs, Tibetans, Falun Gong: Brownback catalogs three ongoing genocides, officially recognized in U.S. government policy, targeting distinct faith communities.
• Staggering Deaths: Estimated 50–70 million killed by the regime, not even counting those lost to the one-child policy (16:55).

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Hong Kong: From “Island of Freedom” to Repressed State

6. Life Under a Bounty: Francis Hui’s Testimony

Timestamps: 19:49 – 22:41

• Living in the U.S. under a $1 million Hong Kong police bounty, Francis Hui describes ongoing threats to herself and her family:

  “It's not ideal to be living in a free nation and yet still having to worry about your safety and thinking about the safety of your friends and your family back home. But this is my life right now.”
  (19:49)

• Despite asylum, Hui faces harassment, surveillance, and threats. She underscores the real risk of “transnational repression.”

7. Hong Kong’s “One Country, Two Systems” Illusion

Timestamps: 22:41 – 26:22

• Originally a “gateway to China” and an island of religious and civic freedoms, Hong Kong was hoped to inspire democratization.
• Under Xi Jinping, freedoms have dramatically eroded:

  “People realized that everything was a lie that they were living in. And so businesses left, many Hong Kongers left...because of the fear for political persecution.”
  (24:59)

8. Impact on Hong Kongers and Families

Timestamps: 26:22 – 28:50

• The community is split: some flee for their children’s future, others feel compelled to stay, and many—jailed activists—lack any choice.
• Ongoing repression includes lack of transparency and increasing punishment even for minimal dissent or communication.

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Global Response and the Challenge to the Free World

9. What Is the World Doing?

Timestamps: 28:50 – 31:34

• Brownback laments inadequate global action:

  “Not near enough. We've really got to do a lot more, and I think we need to make this into a national security issue, not a human rights issue.”
  (29:32)

• Drawing on the Reagan-era approach to the USSR, he urges clarity in recognizing and confronting China as an “evil empire.”

10. Memory and Resistance: Tiananmen Square

Timestamps: 32:11 – 37:52

• Annual Hong Kong vigils commemorating the Tiananmen Square massacre have been banned since 2020; activists are imprisoned for simply remembering.
• Yet even now, individuals show resilience:

  “There are still Hong Kongers that continue to go to the street on every June 4th...to make their statement...that embody what Hong Kongers mean.”
  (35:23, Francis Hui)

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Memorable Moments & Noteworthy Quotes

• On CCP’s Fear of Faith:

  “They fear religious freedom more than they fear our aircraft carriers or our nuclear weapons.”
  (Sam Brownback, 07:28)

• On Resistance:

  “It is just, it's a modern Apostle Paul's just not shutting up, continuing to stand.”
  (Sam Brownback, 11:05)

• On Hong Kong’s Transformation:

  “It almost feels like the air is different, but it's just one river across... people realized everything was a lie they were living in.”
  (Francis Hui, 23:43 & 24:59)

• On the CCP’s Broken Promises:

  “We should not enter any deals when there are political prisoners languishing in jail... President Trump himself has committed to help free Jimmy Lai...this is the critical moment to turn that commitment into action.”
  (Francis Hui, 38:44)

• Final Warning on China:

  “China has always shown us that it is not a reliable partner to make deal with...the world needs to wake up to, to understand the nature of the ccp... you can't trust them and we need to see them as who they are, as they show us.”
  (Francis Hui, 40:41)

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Key Timestamps

| Time | Topic | |----------|---------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:02 | Brownback on history and brutality of CCP, religious persecution | | 07:28 | CCP’s fear of religious freedom | | 08:36 | Peter Xu’s story; resilience under torture | | 13:17 | Economic development vs. actual freedoms in China | | 15:29 | Genocides against Uyghurs, Tibetans, Falun Gong | | 19:49 | Francis Hui on advocacy under threat and life in exile | | 22:41 | Hong Kong’s transformation; “one country, two systems” illusion | | 26:22 | Families’ responses; information blackouts, ongoing repression | | 29:32 | Brownback: failure of the world to adequately confront China | | 32:11 | Memory of Tiananmen Square; commemorations and crackdown | | 35:23 | Ongoing courage and small acts of resistance in Hong Kong | | 38:44 | Francis Hui’s message for U.S. leaders: prioritize human rights | | 40:41 | CCP’s record of broken promises and the world’s need for vigilance |

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Conclusion

The episode delivers a sobering, personal, and urgent exposé of China’s campaign against faith and freedom. It foregrounds both curated accounts and living testimony to call U.S. and global leaders to moral clarity and action. Both Brownback and Hui warn repeatedly: The CCP’s war on religious and civil liberties is foundational to their model of authoritarianism, and the world ignores it—and appeases it—at its peril.

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Transcript

[Sam Brownback]

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[Francis Hui]

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[Matt Kittle]

And we are back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, senior elections correspondent at the Federalist and your experience Sherpa on today's quest for knowledge. As always, you can email the show at radio the federalist.com follow us on XDRLST. Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast and of course to the premium version of our website as well. Our guest today is Sam Brownback, former U. S. Senator and governor of the great of Kansas. He also served as ambassador at large for international religious freedom in the first Trump administration. Ambassador Brownback's new book is titled China's War on Faith. A little bit later in the podcast we'll also be joined by Hong Kong activist Francis Hui, an activist and journalist who participated in the 2014 Umbrella Movement and 2019 Pro Political Asylum or pro democracy protest. I should say she became the first Hong Kong activist to receive political asylum in the US after being targeted by the National Security Law. She continues to advocate for Hong Kong's freedom while living under a one million dollar bounty issued by the Hong Kong police. That's just one of many stories that you will find in the new book China's War on Faith out this week. And thank you Ambassador Brownback so much for joining us in this edition of the Federalist Radio Hour.

[Sam Brownback]

Matt, it's a pleasure to join you. Thank you very much for having me on. I just feel so strongly about this topic and I'm glad when people are willing to take and share my interest in it and share the information about it.

[Matt Kittle]

Well, it's such an important topic. The Trump administration when you were there as today in Trump two point is very concerned. I know in talking with officials there about the abuses that we have seen, the human rights abuses, particularly on faith around the world. But there may be no bigger abuser than communist China. Let's begin there if we can, because this is a long and painful story under communist China, is it not? Very long.

[Sam Brownback]

Very painful. The communist regime in China has killed more of its own people than any other regime in the history of mankind. That's quite a horrific title to to hold. And much of that's been expressed through and towards people of faith, whether it's Christians or Buddhists or Muslims or Falun Gong. You've seen all of them experience extraordinary levels of persecution and just death and then even things as horrific sounding as organ harvesting of people that they've killed because they didn't appreciate or approve of their faith.

[Matt Kittle]

Just horrifying. We're going to get more into that and some of the stories, obviously, in just a bit. But I do want to pause at this moment because I know that you've heard it. We all have heard from the new radical left in this country, which keeps preaching the critical theory concepts of, you know, oppressor and the oppressed. And they speak of the Western world, particularly the United States, as the oppressor to the oppressed. What do you think about that kind of rhetoric coming from the left when the Marxist, the communist in China are eliminating how many hundreds of thousands, millions of people from the face of the earth because of their faith? These individuals that you write about, that you talk about, are truly the oppressed?

[Sam Brownback]

No, they completely are. And you're even seeing some. And this is substantial of funding and organization coming from Communist China or backed by communist China or backed by businesses in communist China pushing and spewing the rhetoric about what you're saying. No, it's actually the west that's being the one that's being the oppressor. And if that's the case, why are all these people escaping out of China to come to the United States? The people we feature in the book, a number of them have sought exile in the United States from China. And they're Buddhist and they're Falun Gong and they're Muslims and they're Christians and they're normal other people as well. I mean, I think really the actions speak for themselves. And yet, you know, you continue to hear these sort of words. It's just really, I think, a way to try to obfuscate and to. And to try to push back against somehow this narrative that is so clearly in the facts and in the witnesses. What we have in the book is a series of 10 people that are eyewitnesses to persecution that they have experienced. This is testimony that'd be admissible into court. And we tell it as a way to showcase to people this is what's happening. It's happening to all faiths. It's happening because the Communists in China cannot stand an authority that's higher than the government, and they will do anything to stop it.

[Matt Kittle]

Yeah, well, I want to really address why this is. Why is this happening? I think in general, you just talked about it, but you have this Massive population that is controlled by a, an authoritarian, severely, extremely authoritarian government. Why, why do they not allow at least some level of religious freedom? Because it simply is not there. And what is life like for, for instance, the average Christian in, in China these days?

[Sam Brownback]

Well, they don't allow it because it's a challenge to their authority. Communism is officially atheistic, and they see any authority that's higher than the government as a challenge to them. And they've gone to huge lengths to enforce that power of theirs. They spend billions of dollars surveilling people of faith and others that might cause them trouble. They've put in the most expansive digital police states known to mankind in the western part of the state and country, and they're expanding into other parts of China and exporting that technology to other authoritarians. And I think at the end of the day it's. They're scared. They fear religious freedom more than they fear our aircraft carriers or our nuclear weapons, because that's the place where they could really lose it, is at home with their own people who are spiritual, spiritual by nature, and are seeking answers that the government cannot provide them. And as they do and find that information out, they start pushing back against the government and standing against it.

[Matt Kittle]

Your book Counts is is an account of victims, but also individuals who have, with a great amount of courage that is hard to fathom. They have stood up against the oppressive communist regime in China and it has cost them dearly. Let's talk about some of those stories.

[Sam Brownback]

You know, Peter Xu is one I start the book out with. He was called the Billy Graham of China. This is back late 1990s, was in jail five times. The last time he was in jail, they hung him in a cross formation from a prison prison bars until he was at the moment of death. They let him down just before he dies and then they bring in a statement for him to sign saying that God's a hoax, Jesus is a fraud, and to sign that. And he looks at the warden barely alive and just kind of mumbles, thank you for allowing me to participate in the sufferings of Christ. Wow. And it's that level of faith. These are profiles in faith that we really do in the book. And it's various faiths that we put forward that the Chinese Communist Party cannot stand and they will rebel and push back against us. Wang Yi is another person we feature in the book. He's the only one couldn't personally interview. I'd met him previously, but Pastor Wang Yi is in prison right now in China. He was a public intellectual in China before he became a pastor after Tiananmen Square really soured him on the government ever being able to change itself. And at one point he gives a sermon saying, we're all sinners, including Xi Jinping, and we also have to repent of our sins. Well, you can just imagine that didn't make him any favorite in Beijing. And he's now serving a nine year jail sentence. And that's the sort of thing that just undermines the party authority. But it's truth and it's the sort of thing that can't be refuted, which is so, so challenging to the Communist Party and it's a tool we should use in standing up for religious freedom as a way of challenging the Chinese Communist Party.

[Matt Kittle]

It is the kind of courage, I will say, that should also give us a prism in which to look. It's hard to have that kind of courage. But if you are of the Christian faith, as I am of Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, that's the kind of inspiration you should draw.

[Sam Brownback]

Where when I, when I talk with these people, I just, I really, I look at my own faith and the littleness of it. I would pray I could have that kind of courage in that kind of circumstance. It is just, it's a modern Apostle Paul's just not shutting up, continuing to stand. And we also profile faith of other religions and people that have stood against that. Just really showcasing that this is everybody and also this is the world that the Chinese Communist Party and their authoritarian allies want to have for everybody in the world. And we've got now this competition of systems between the authoritarians led by the Chinese Communist Party and the United States leading Western civilization, where we look at the dignity of the individual created in the image of God. And these are the two systems that are in conflict with each other and one system will win out.

[Matt Kittle]

You don't see, or let me ask you, do you see at all any possibility of a kind of glasnow, if you will, in the parlance of the old Soviet Union, a perestroika? Do you see any of those kinds of freedoms? Because what we have seen in the Communist Republic of China over the last couple few decades is a country that is striving to be the dominant economic player and certainly, certainly the dominant military player. But there are, there aren't. While they have allowed certain freedoms in the economy, there aren't the kinds of civil liberties, obviously that we take for granted here. I think the hope was, wasn't it, that if China was modernizing its economy becoming the most favored nation, those kinds of things, that they would come along with the civil rights as well.

[Sam Brownback]

Absolutely. And I bought it for a while in the 1990s, early 2000s, said, yeah, you know, as they open up, there will be freedom that will come along with that and they will change and that will change them from within. And many of us in Washington bought it. That was part of the sales pitch on most favored nation status. That was the Deng Xiaoping era and there was more liberalization taking place. And you'll hear from these witnesses, they'll say that that lived through that period, say, yes, it was an opening, but it was always kind of a controlled opening up. And you knew they could always at any point in time put the hammer down. And what you've seen really is Xi Jinping has become another Mao in his dictatorial, chaos spreading style of putting back these liberties, pulling back on these liberties. And it's really a fear on, fear on part of the government that they have of their own people and that they, they're pushing that right now. In particular, they're locking up a lot of Christian pastors in the country and they're, they're really concerned about the spread of Christianity, how much it's spread in the country. And they're going to do everything they can to, to lock that up and put that genie back in the bottle. Problem of it is it won't work, it can't, it won't last. And that's why I think it's really actually a strategic asset on our part to push for religious freedom for everybody everywhere, including and specifically in China. Now.

[Matt Kittle]

God bless the people who are being tortured and murdered in the name of their faith. This is, I think, you know, we in America, we, we go about our business and many, many Americans are concerned about these sorts of things. But I don think most fully understand what is happening we're talking about certainly informs genocides of people there for their faith.

[Sam Brownback]

Absolutely. And I put in the book, there's three genocides going on right now. And we have already declared as a US government under Trump 1. And also it was declared under Biden that there was a genocide of the Muslim Uyghurs taking place. But there's also a genocide of a Tibetan Buddhist that's happening. They've been trying to wipe out Buddhism in Tibet for a long time. The Dalai Lama cannot return to his home in Lhasa. They've been going at him as a cultural genocide as well. And on top of that, there's a religious group called the Falun Gong, that's kind of a spiritual movement combining features of Buddhism and Taoism with it and Confucian proverbs. They got up to 90 million adherents in seven years. When they allowed its practice, well, then the Communists really hammered down on that, and they have wiped that out as much as they possibly could. But there's still tens of millions of them practicing their faith. But those are each genocides. They're a targeted group, religious group in these cases that the Chinese Communist Party has tried to wipe out, which is the definition of genocide.

[Matt Kittle]

What are we talking about in terms of lives lost? I mean, the numbers I know are startling, and they should be.

[Sam Brownback]

If you take the totality of the Chinese Communist Party since Mao Zedong through to now, and do not count. Do not count the one child policy where they forcibly aborted a number of children. You're well up into the 50 to 70 million category. And. And who knows what the actual number is?

[Matt Kittle]

Oh, dear Lord. Just an absolute tragedy.

[Sam Brownback]

Yes, it is. On a scale really unimaginable. So unimaginable that we don't even want to think about it most of the time. Because you're just kind of going, I just. I don't want to even fathom something like that.

[Matt Kittle]

No, it's just.

[Sam Brownback]

It's just.

[Matt Kittle]

It really. It really is hard to imagine. I mean, we're watching a documentary right now, my family and I, on the Holocaust. I mean, it's again, you know, I know this stuff. I know what has happened. And man's human inhumanity to man, it's just. It's just so difficult to fathom. Yet you talk about the one key driver here, and that is fear of the repressive government to let these ideas in. And, you know, you can understand why they are afraid of that. America's debt crisis just hit a dangerous milestone. The Watchdog on Wall street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day, Chris helps unpack the connection between politics and the economy and how it affects your wallet. The US Debt has topped the entire gdp. That number was once considered inconceivable. We simply don't have the money. We're spending it on interest. Whether it's happening in D.C. or down on Wall street, it's affecting you financially. Be informed. Check out the Watchdog on Wall street podcast with Chris Mark on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. Our guest today, Sam Brownback, former U.S. senator and governor of the great state of Kansas. He's also served as ambassador at large for international religious freedom in the first Trump administration. Ambassador Brownback's new book is titled China's War on Faith. We're also joined by Hong Kong activist Frances Hui, an activist and journalist who participated in the 2014 Umbrella Movement and 2019 pro democracy protest. She became the first Hong Kong activist to receive political asylum in the US after being targeted by the National Security Law.

[Sam Brownback]

There.

[Matt Kittle]

She continues to advocate for Hong Kong's freedom while living under a one million dollar bounty issued by the Hong Kong Police. Let us begin if you don't mind. Francis. What is it like living with such a bounty over your head?

[Francis Hui]

Oh well, it's. First of all, it's an honor to be, to speak here and share my story. I think it's not ideal to be living in a free nation and yet still having to worry about your safety and thinking about the safety of your friends and your family back home. But this is my life right now. Is that with doing all of my advocacy in the US for Hong Kong, for my work at the CFHK foundation, the Committee for Freedom in Hong Kong foundation, all of that is protected free speech that I have in the US but then because of this work, my family have been threatened. They have been brought into police by police for questioning and constantly I receive calls from unknown people just harassing me. And you don't like. I don't expect to see that when I came first in 2020 to the US to seek for asylum. I mean the US to me I think it's a great nation, it's a free nation that gave me refuge. And so as to a lot of political refugees and my friends who working on the Human Rights circle. But yeah, the, the transnational repression is real and it's happening. A lot of it was from China and we still need a lot of work to battle that. You know, what was the CCP is doing in, in the U.S. what, what

[Matt Kittle]

do you think would have happened to you? Where would you be today had you not been able to escape the, the kind of persecution you were dealing with?

[Francis Hui]

I would absolutely be arrested and be sentenced to prison. And for, I mean for what I do as so called colluding with foreign forces. I'll be facing life and sentence if I decided to stay and continue to do my work.

[Matt Kittle]

Now you, you grew up in, did I should ask you, did you grow up in, in Hong Kong?

[Francis Hui]

I did grow up in Hong Kong, born and raised. I came here when I was 16 years old to study to college.

[Matt Kittle]

Well, some, some things have drastically changed and over the years of course, and Hong Kong was, I think many of US saw it as an island of freedom, you know? You know, but ultimately, the communist government of China came calling. What is the. The dynamic there? If you could talk us, China's tentacles involved in Hong Kong, the once very free Hong Kong.

[Francis Hui]

I think at the beginning, when Hong Kong was handed over to China, it has a. It gives China the unique position as the, you know, the open door to the world. And I think at that time, the international community has a lot of hope for China to democratize, to eventually become freer, more open society. And so Hong Kong was like this gateway to enter the Chinese market, to understand China. And religiously, the religious communities in Hong Kong have thrived under the protected freedom of speech and the freedom to have faith and your religion. Those are the things that was protected under the one country, two system. So it's an interesting place. It's part of China. But then. And you can feel it, definitely there is a difference. When you step into Hong Kong from China, it almost feels like the air is different, but it's just one river across. And so you cultivate, like you cultivated a generation of activists that really hope that eventually Hong Kong would be that door to open up China and will bring China to democracy. And that was a lot of what human rights advocates hold, including Jimmy Lai, who ran a pro democracy newspaper in Hong Kong. He believes that Apple Daily, his newspaper, would be able to bring information to people in China and eventually open up their mind, and then they will lead to the democracy in China. That was the hope. But I mean, Xi Jinping, when he came into power, I think he sees Hong Kong as a threat. He wants more control. And when people took to the streets and asked for more autonomy from China, Xi Jinping is like, no, we need to take it back and take all the control back. And so you see, the National Security Law came in, criminalizes all acts of dissent. They send all the activists, journalists to jail. And people realized that everything was a lie that they were living in. And so businesses left, many Hong Kongers left, like myself, because of the fear for political persecution. So Hong Kong is now. It's totally different from five years ago. If you have been to Hong Kong in 2019, like Ambassador Brownback have been to, it's totally different now.

[Matt Kittle]

Different, of course, in the sense that it is the heavy hand of the authoritarian China that. That controls it. I would imagine at some point, it kind of felt like West Berlin. East Berlin. There was definitely a pronounced difference. Are the people there who have grown up or who have lived for generations free, Are they? How Are they dealing with all of this? Because it's got to be a shock to the system. That's, I think, similar to me, what we saw in Afghanistan when you had the Taliban, you know, out of power, there was the opening of freedom there. You know, Hong Kong was free for a very long time.

[Francis Hui]

Yeah. Like I said, I think I was very fortunate to be. To grow up in the era that Hong Kong had, you know, freedom. And, and I, I've seen people going onto the street myself, took part in social movements. I've experienced all of what it feels like to have freedom and then saw all of that fell apart. And so there are many Hong Kongers, like I said, left Hong Kong because they just simply can't stand it. Like, they can't stand to see their home fell apart like that. And they don't want that for their future for their second generation. Many of the people who left Hong Kong actually were young families, and they wanted a better future for their kids. They want their kids to be able to know the real version of history instead of the version of history that Beijing presents to the world. You have those people and then. But then at the same time, there are also other, you know, another part of people that feels like Hong Kong is their home. So they don't want to let go, they want to stay, no matter it. It rise and fall. And, and, and there are also some other people that don't have a choice. They are based simply being locked behind bars, being. They were sentenced to, you know, 10 years, six years in prison. And so they don't have a choice. They have to stay. And yet you have increasing control by the authorities. And so they, they have really limited information about the outside world. They were totally isolated. And whenever they make any public post in the, in the media, they get punished in prison. There are a lot of these abuses that we were documenting in Hong Kong that wouldn't really happen in the past. And even, like, the, the lack of transparency and the, and the lack of, you know, accountability is really making these abuses worsen and worsen. Yeah. And so, you know, this is what happened when you don't have a media that is countering and monitoring the government and it's just gonna get worse. And so, yeah, there are different people and taking different routes. And.

[Matt Kittle]

Yeah, no, it has been very pronounced, the shift that has gone on. Ambassador Brownback, if I could just a quick moment, wanted to ask you about what the world is doing on this front. The United States obviously has, in the Trump administration has, you know, still an ambassador Position for this, dedicated to it. But again, China is a major player, certainly in the United nations, whatever that is worth these days, but definitely a major economic player. What is the world doing about the abuses there?

[Sam Brownback]

Not near enough. We've really got to do a lot more, and I think we need to make this into a national security issue, not a human rights issue issue. And I think we need to use it in a way that we like what Ronald Reagan used against the Soviet Union when he comes into power. Before then, we were in detente. Soviet Union, you got your area, we got our area. We'll fight over some regions with third party players. But Reagan comes in and says, no, we're not doing it that way. That is an evil empire in the Soviet Union. And the way this ends is we win, you lose. And he stood up against it, and particularly after he got shot, where it just galvanized in his own mind, what do I want to get done? And this was, it was bringing down the Soviet Union. I think we need to have that same sort of clarity of thought. This is an evil empire. It has killed millions of its own people. It seeks to dominate the world. It seeks to dominate the world in an authoritarian model where rights are done away with and religious freedom is the first one that you lose, even though it's the human right of the soul. And I think we need to turn that around and say, no, we will not stand for this. We will not tolerate it. We will confront it, and we will use religious freedom as a key measure. As to whether you're sincere or not about standing for freedom with China and with the rest of the authoritarians around the world, I think really that's the kind of moment we're at in this sort of clarity we need. And thank goodness for President Trump. He's the first president since Kennedy to stand up to China. We've got a lot of issues on the agenda, but I think really one of the key ones is just to realize they're at war with us, whether we realize we're at war with them or not, and we need to confront it.

[Matt Kittle]

And they are fighting that on many fronts.

[Sam Brownback]

Yes.

[Matt Kittle]

Francis, let me ask you, you talked before about the democracy movement of, of 2019. We all watch that, of course, and, and of course, some of us old enough to, to remember, we, we thought about a particular day in what, 1989, Tiananmen Square, and the oppressive movements, the, the images of, of those brave people standing in front of those massive tanks. What was that like? Because you've been involved in, in that movement, you understand, you know, the players.

[Francis Hui]

Yeah, well, I was not born in 1989. I learned about it when I was 10 years old, when it was like the 20th anniversary.

[Matt Kittle]

Yeah, I. I mean, I mean, you were involved, you know, in the Hong Kong. Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

[Francis Hui]

Yeah. But that was actually the. The moment that really opened my eyes and opened the door for me to understand, for me to even, like, conceptualize what it means to be a Hong Konger. Like how it is different for me to be born in Hong Kong. Like, the privilege that I. The privileges I have to be born in Hong Kong to have the freedom that people in mainland China does not have. And I think for that's. That's something shared in my generation is that we have not seen the movement. We have not experienced the time before the British colony. But then we grew up in that era of seeing how freedom was guaranteed and we are able to take our boys to the streets and, you know, being entirely engaged in the. In civic society, to care about our society, the policy that is being imposed to us. Like, it was. It was like the golden era of Hong Kong civic society. And I think just being part of these social movement, it really helps me to understand what it means to be a Hong Konger again, like, what are the privileges I have and how important freedom is, because people living across a river, the river does not get to enjoy those things. And they actually get killed for speaking out for themselves and fighting for freedom. And so every year there is a, you know, annual vigil for. To commemorate the Tiananmen Square massacre in Hong Kong. And that was like the. The only one place in China that you're able to do that to commemorate the. The. The massacre. And so every year we get, remember, we get reminded about the, you know, the responsibility we have to introduce, to tell the world about this history and also to remember that there are a lot of people that are. That have sacrificed for freedom. And Hong Kong would be this place that bring freedom and democracy for China. And so that, you know, there was this hope that Hong Kong would be this place, I think, for me at least.

[Matt Kittle]

But I think about it, you think across China, as you mentioned, nobody is commemorating Tiananmen Square. If you do that, you are going to go to prison or worse. Hong Kong has, under the National Security Law, I mean, it's. It's become a different place. So what happens when people do exactly that commemorative. Commemorate that moment of, you know, absolute oppression from the Chinese Communists?

[Francis Hui]

Yeah. Hong Kong was this one place that you can commemorate the Tiananmen Square massacre in China in the past 20, for like 20 years, it has been the only place that you can do that. And then in 2020, when the National Security Law was imposed, it's the, that's the first year that the vigil was banned. So there have been many, many activists who participated in the vigil were arrested and they were actually charged and sentenced to prison for attending in those vigils after it was banned. So, you know, including Jimmy Lai, other names like Joshua Wong, Gwyneth hall, they have all been sentenced to prison simply for remembering the Tiananmen Square massacre. But then it's important to remember though, even though it's now banned for now, this is like the fifth year now or the sixth year, there are still Hong Kongers that continue to go to the street on every June 4th and to make their statement, whether it's just bringing a bundle of flour to just walk alone on the streets or to light a candle and just go out to the street on that day. We, we still see that sort of resistance going on in Hong Kong streets and that embody what Hong Kongers mean. Even though you're repressing us, you're trying to silence us, Hong Kongers will try every way, you know, to, to find every way to creativity, like finding creativity to remember this day. Because it's so important in our history, it's so important in our blood that this is something that we need to remember to remind the world that this happened like 30 years ago, 20 something years ago, that thousands of students went, you know, gather in Tiananmen Square, and all they were asking for is democracy for China. And for that they were killed, they were rolled by tanks, they were shot, and their mothers and fathers were waiting for them to go back home. Yet this is what the CCP would do if they, if you stand up against them.

[Matt Kittle]

Final, final question for you. President Trump and Chinese President Xi Jinping will meet our meeting coming up this week under the cloud of Beijing's ongoing high tech campaign, of course, to eradicate religious identity. And that's a big part of it is a high tech campaign. What would you tell the President of the United States about the President of China and what the conversation should entail? Because obviously this conversation is going to be manifold. It's going to involve a lot of, you know, economic conversation and manufacturing and all of those other things. But my hunch is human rights will at least be part of this conversation. What would you tell the President of the United States?

[Francis Hui]

If I can have a word with President Trump, Right now I will ask him to prioritize human rights and the political prisoners in China when he meets with Xi Jinping. That would be like the only thing that I would tell President Trump is that we should not enter any, enter into any deals when there are political prisoners languishing in jail simply for their free speech, for their faith or for their ethnic identity. We have in Hong Kong, just in Hong Kong, there have been over a thousand nine hundred political prisoners since 2020. And many of them are my friends, the most, the brightest mind in Hong Kong that was supposed to lead the policy space in Hong Kong right now, yet they're now putting behind bars simply for fighting for democracy and freedom in Hong Kong. And that's something the US Supports, that's the fundamental value for the US and we should protect that. And President Trump himself has committed to help free Jimmy Lai. And I think this is the critical moment to turn that commitment into action to not just bring up about Jimmy Lai, but secure his release, peace and bring them home. I think that's, that would be the one thing that I would tell President Trump if I'm now sitting across him and telling him one thing.

[Matt Kittle]

Yeah, I understand and I appreciate that perspective certainly. And I wish that there were members, there were people in this country, the United States of America, particularly on the radical left, which would understand what real oppression looks like, what real assault on civil liberties and religious liberties are really all about.

[Francis Hui]

China. I would just say one last thing. China has always tell, has always shown us that it is not a reliable partner to make deal with. I mean we can see that in 1997 when Hong Kong was handed over to China, China make a promise under the international eyes that China, that they will give Hong Kongers the freedom. They will leave Hong Kong one country, two system and the freedom for 50 years. Nothing will change. But we in 2020 it enter not even halfway of that promise. Our freedom was all taken over away by the ccp. And there are so many other examples in history that shows, shows us China has never keep its promise. And so that's, that's something I think the world needs to wake up to, to understand the nature of the ccp. It's, it's, you can't trust them and we need to see them as who they are, as they show us.

[Matt Kittle]

Yes, I think that's a great point. If, if an individual tells you, you what they are about and what they are going to do, if a country does the same and you have watched them do it over and over again, you should believe them and take them at the word, at their word for how abusive they can be and how untrustworthy they can be. And that is communist China. I want to thank my guests today. Both guests today, former Ambassador Sam Brownback whose new book is titled China's War on Faith, Faith and Francis Hui, an activist and journalist who participated in the 2014 Umbrella Movement in the 2019 Pro Democracy Protest in Hong Kong. She is living in the United States and has done for has done so for some time. If she goes back, she faces

[Sam Brownback]

a

[Matt Kittle]

good deal of punishment for speaking out. I want to thank again our guests today, former Ambassador Sam Brownback and Francis Way. You've been listening to another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, senior elections correspondent at the Federalist. We'll be back soon with more. Until then, stay lovers of freedom and anxious for the fray.

[Sam Brownback]

I heard a faint voice of reason and then it faded away.