Hayden's History Hour Ep. 6: The March Toward Independence Day

Summary

Hayden’s History Hour Ep. 6: The March Toward Independence Day
Federalist Radio Hour | June 29, 2026
Host: Hayden Daniel (with guest Brianna Lyman)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Hayden Daniel and Brianna Lyman (Federalist elections correspondent) explore the gradual—rather than inevitable—progression toward American independence. They dissect the political, economic, and social events from the end of the French and Indian War in 1763 to the adoption of the Declaration of Independence in 1776. Their conversation unveils how independence was far from a foregone conclusion, highlighting the divided colonial sentiments, influential events and documents, and the ultimate forging of an American identity separate from Britain.

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Key Topics and Insights

1. The Myth of Inevitability

• The hosts argue against the notion that independence was “inevitable” from 1763 to 1776, emphasizing how most colonists and delegates initially sought reconciliation, not separation, even after the fighting at Lexington and Concord (00:46).

  "Even in June of 1776, you still had colonies like New York, Pennsylvania, even... South Carolina... hesitant a month before the Declaration to declare independence from the Crown."
  — Brianna Lyman (01:34)

2. Seeds of Discontent: 1763–1765

• The Proclamation of 1763 restricted settlement west of the Appalachian Mountains, angering colonists hungry for growth.

• The Sugar Act (1764) didn't raise taxes but increased enforcement, crucial for rum trade and colonial economies.

• The Stamp Act (1765) was the first tax to truly unite the colonies in opposition, touching daily life and leading to widespread protest—including the formation of resistance groups like the Sons of Liberty (03:05).

  "Paper products are something that people use on the daily for newspapers, for letters, for playing cards... So this is where you first now see... 'no taxation without representation.'"
  — Brianna Lyman (04:24)

3. Escalation & British Backlash

• Parliament’s repeal of the Stamp Act was followed by the Declaratory Act, asserting total British control, which inflamed colonial fears (06:00).

• Boston Massacre (1770): deadly violence escalates, challenging the colonists’ sense of British identity and safety (07:00).

• Boston Tea Party (1773) and the Intolerable Acts (1774): radical acts of defiance were initially fringe, but harsh British reprisals drove more colonists to the cause of resistance (08:47).

  "[The British] basically just override... local government in Massachusetts, says that the royal governor has complete and total control..."
  — Hayden Daniel (09:16)

4. Continental Congresses & Growing Unity

• The First Continental Congress (1774): most delegates still hoped for reconciliation.
• King George III’s early recognition (late 1774) that force might be needed to suppress potential colonial independence (10:52).
• Seizure of colonial armaments (Williamsburg, Bunker Hill), further militarizing colonists’ opposition (11:47).

5. Slow March to Rebellion & Independence

• Second Olive Branch Petition (1775) and rejection by the King, who simultaneously prepared to send foreign mercenaries, shocked colonists and hardened support for independence as news slowly traveled across the Atlantic (13:34).
• Simultaneous adoption of militancy and offers for reconciliation: "Declaration of the Causes and Necessity of Taking Up Arms" (1775) and King’s Proclamation of Rebellion (15:29).

6. Influential Propaganda: Thomas Paine’s Common Sense

• Paine’s pamphlet was crucial in communicating Enlightenment ideals and breaking the final ties of loyalty, reaching moderate and working-class readers previously unmoved by elite arguments (17:33).

  "Thomas Paine comes along and he puts into simpler terms what our Founding fathers had already been discussing and talking about. And this just becomes one of, like, the best sellers of all time, like, right behind the Bible during this era..."
  — Brianna Lyman (17:33)

7. Tipping Points: Military and Political

• The end of the siege of Boston (Mar 1776) gives colonists military hope.

• May–June 1776: Virginia leads with its push for Congress to declare independence; Richard Henry Lee’s Resolution sets the stage for drafting the Declaration (21:31).

• Committee of Five (Jefferson, Adams, Franklin, Livingston, Sherman) tasked to justify independence, with Jefferson drawing heavily from Virginia’s own declaration (22:24).

  "The Committee of Five... task Thomas Jefferson with writing a Declaration of Independence or at least giving reasons. And... Virginia once again takes the lead..."
  — Brianna Lyman (22:25)

  "You heard it here first, folks. Thomas Jefferson's a plagiarist..."
  — Hayden Daniel (23:12, jokingly)

8. The Role of Key Individuals and States

• Delaware’s “midnight ride” by Caesar Rodney breaks a deadlock, exemplifying how the vote for independence was neither easy nor predetermined (24:16).
• Even once independence was declared, up to a third of colonists remained loyalists; splits cut through families—a notable example being Benjamin Franklin’s son (26:26).

9. Debates Leading Up to Independence

• Fears about funding, raising an army, government structure, and especially garnering French support loomed large.

• The Continental Congress struggled with money and soldier desertion, famously calmed by Washington at Newburgh (29:49).

  "Wars are very expensive. We know that... the Continental Congress didn't have money that so many soldiers always complained about desertion."
  — Brianna Lyman (29:49)

10. The Meaning of American Identity and Nationhood

• Transition from fighting for rights “as Englishmen” to forging a distinctly American and republican identity, especially after the King’s consistent refusal to recognize colonial rights (32:57).

• The founders conceived of the new nation as fundamentally for their own posterity—descendants of the existing colonies—with warnings about mass migration’s potential threat to republican government and assimilation, referencing John Jay and debates over naturalization (41:47).

  "Your rights as Englishmen are based on your natural rights. And the King was ignoring those natural rights... You can't have a king if you believe in natural rights..."
  — Brianna Lyman (32:59)

11. How Historical Narratives Shifted After Independence

• The story of the Lee Resolution, Virginia’s key role, and overlooked figures (such as Robert E. Lee’s ancestors) is mostly forgotten or obscured, sometimes for cultural/political reasons (35:43).
• Later waves of immigrants sought to tie themselves to the “melting pot” myth, but the hosts argue America’s founding culture and government were specifically English in nature until the late 19th century (48:43).

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Notable Quotes & Moments by Timestamp

• 01:34 – "You do have to go back to 1763 with the end of the French and Indian War..." — Brianna Lyman
• 04:24 – "They come up with the Stamp Act. And this is when you begin to see people... start to unite." — Brianna Lyman
• 08:47 – "The Sons of Liberty in 1773 are still pretty out there and don’t really reflect the majority of colonists." — Hayden Daniel
• 13:34 – "That's when the King has decided he's going to send foreigners to kill his own people." — Brianna Lyman
• 17:33 – "Common Sense... spreads like wildfire through the colonies..." — Brianna Lyman
• 21:31 – "Richard Henry Lee gets to Philadelphia and... puts forward what’s known as the Lee Resolution." — Brianna Lyman
• 24:16 – "Cesar Rodney literally rode horseback in a massive thunderstorm... to break that deadlocked vote." — Brianna Lyman
• 26:26 – "You see it in the Civil War too, where families and neighbors are literally divided on the line of which side..." — Brianna Lyman
• 29:49 – "Wars are very expensive... so many soldiers always complained about desertion." — Brianna Lyman
• 32:57 – "These are the times that try men's souls..." — Brianna Lyman referencing Thomas Paine
• 34:28 – "You can’t have a king if you believe in natural rights. Right. No person is born with a God given right to rule another..." — Brianna Lyman
• 41:47 – "Some people are better off living under a monarchy. Some people are better off in a republic..." — Brianna Lyman
• 51:56 – "Our fathers who brought forth upon this continent..." — Hayden Daniel, quoting Lincoln and referencing enduring American identity

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Memorable Anecdotes

• Benjamin Harrison’s joke about being hanged “quickly” due to his weight, breaking the tension during the Declaration’s signing (38:30).
• Brianna Lyman’s personal family connection to both sides at Bunker Hill—a Loyalist and a Patriot ancestor—illustrating divided loyalties (19:04).

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Timeline Highlights

| Timestamp | Event/Topic | |-----------|-------------------------------------| | 01:34 | 1763: Proclamation and Sugar Act | | 04:24 | 1765: Stamp Act and colonial unity | | 07:00 | 1770: Boston Massacre and martyrs | | 08:47 | 1773–74: Tea Party, Intolerable Acts| | 09:38 | 1774: First Continental Congress | | 11:47 | 1775: Beginnings of armed conflict | | 13:34 | 1775–76: Rejected petitions, mercenaries| | 17:33 | 1776: Thomas Paine’s Common Sense | | 21:30 | May–June 1776: Lee Resolution, Virginia leads | | 24:16 | July 2, 1776: Delaware’s decisive vote | | 29:49 | Funding the war, Congressional struggles | | 32:57 | Emotional and philosophical turning points |

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Closing Thoughts

This episode provides an in-depth look at the American Revolution’s complex, meandering buildup—a combination of slow-burn grievances, ideological transformation, and contingency. Daniel and Lyman highlight how hard-won independence was, and how the founders’ concept of “Americans” was both deeper and narrower than contemporary mythology suggests. For listeners, the key takeaway is that 1776 was not predestined: it was debated, delayed, and only achieved through political, cultural, and military tipping points.

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For more on the evolving colonial mindset up to Independence Day, check out Brianna Lyman’s “Countdown to Freedom” series on X (formerly Twitter).

Transcript

[Brianna Lyman]

Foreign.

[Hayden Daniel]

Welcome back to another edition of Hayden's History Hour. I'm your host, Hayden Daniel, editor at the Federalist. As always, you can email the [e-mail] and follow us on x@federalist FDR LST. Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast and, of course, the premium version of our website as well. Today, for this very special episode, I'm joined by Brianna Lyman, Federalist elections correspondent. Thanks for coming on, and welcome to the show.

[Brianna Lyman]

Yeah, thanks for having me.

[Hayden Daniel]

So today we're going to be talking about the road to the American Revolution, or maybe we should probably say how it became the road to the American Revolution, because oftentimes we can sort of fall into the trap of hindsight, being 2020 and seeing the arc from 1763 with the end of the French and Indian War to July 4, 1776, being this sort of inevitable series of events that always were culminating towards independence, when really that really wasn't the case. Even in April 1775, when the Second Continental Congress convenes, most of the delegates weren't initially in favor of independence. And that's after the first shots were fired at Lexington Concord. So this is after the fighting has already started, correct?

[Brianna Lyman]

Yeah, absolutely. And Hayden, even, what's, what's most interesting is even In June of 1776, you still had colonies like New York, Pennsylvania, even, I think it's South Carolina. They were actually still hesitant a month before the Declaration to declare independence from the Crown. So this is something that really took more than a decade. And to your point, you know, you do have to go back to 1763 with the end of the French and Indian War, because at this point, Britain had a lot of debt, right? They had a ton of debt. And so in order to finance themselves, they thought, let's turn to our colonies which are prosperous and are doing well. And even then, it wasn't no taxation without representation necessarily. It was more about the colonists seeing this unfair treatment and thinking the policy is unfair. And so if you go back to, you know, 1763, I think the Crown had basically told the colonists, first and foremost, you're not allowed to go west. And that was a big issue for the colonists because they saw that as limiting their ability to obviously grow and to move around. They were not allowed to go west of the Appalachian Mountains. And that was a problem. Right. But kind of push that aside, right? Then you go a year later, and the, the crown comes up with the Sugar Act. Okay. And a lot of people don't understand why the Sugar act was so important. But rum and molasses was a key business model for a lot of the colonies. And it actually, Rome was part of that. What is it called, like the triangle. Triangle trade. Is that the, the right word?

[Hayden Daniel]

Yep. Triangular trade.

[Brianna Lyman]

Triangular trade, yes. Rome was a key part of that. Right. And this kind of trade was pretty vital for most of New England. And so when you had Britain placing this, this tax, that became a problem. And what's interesting is it didn't even necessarily raise the tax, it actually lowered the tax, but it increased enforcement. Right. So by increasing enforcement, colonists ended up paying more. Right. And that impacted how they were able to do their day to day business. And so the, this was an import that mattered to them. It was foundational for how their economies ran and the crown had started stepping in. So this is like the first time we see a problem. And yet at this point, colonists are still not thinking, let's break away from the crown. They're just thinking, let's fix this and go forward.

[Hayden Daniel]

Yep. And as you said, Rome is an extremely important industry and it's made out of sugar. For those who don't know, Rome was actually number one spirit in America before the revolution. And especially those New England businessmen were also buying from France and Spain sugar to refine into rum. So the sugar act and other British acts sort of monopolize it too. So that's another way that they increase revenue is basically cut off sources of sugar from anywhere else except for just the British Caribbean.

[Brianna Lyman]

Yeah, yeah. And then you go to, maybe it's a year or two later, but the Stamp Act. Right. This is actually when you first see the colonies start to unite on, on this front. So the STAMP act required SAMs to be on all printed materials. And that hit every colonist. Right. The rum trade, you could argue, didn't hit every colonist. Exactly. Because obviously, first of all, some people just aren't in the rum business. And not everybody was purchasing rum products in such high quantities that they could really feel that impact. But paper products are something that people use on the daily for newspapers, for letters, for playing cards, things like that. And so they come up with the Stamp Act. And this is when you begin to see people, I think they were, they started burning effigies of tax collectors. You see the rise of colonial groups. I want to say maybe the Sons of Liberty, but I actually can't recall exactly when that was formed. But you see groups similar to the Sons of Liberty being formed to protest this act. And so the Stamp Act Congress ends Up meeting in New York. And they basically say that we have certain rights and we're loyal to the Crown, but you cannot tax us without our representation. So this is where you first now see that. No taxation without representation. And Parliament kind of listened, right. They repeal the Stamp act because of all the pressure that was happening, especially for monetary reasons. Right. Because people were boycotting it and Britain still needed money, so they had to play their cards. Right. And then the Crown does something that kind of sets in motion the entire revolution. They pass the Declatory act, and they basically say that we get to control the colonies in all cases. Like, there's no question that we are the ultimate authority. And that pisses the colonists off, for lack of a better word.

[Hayden Daniel]

Yep. Because before this and then after this, of course, they're. They're trying to. Or their argument is that we're trying to reestablish our rights as Englishmen, that we are subjects of the English Crown, who have certain inalienable rights, the same as any other Englishman. That's where no taxation without representation comes from. That's where what you're talking about comes from. They want to be regarded on the same plane as Englishmen because they think of themselves as Englishmen. They're not colonial subjects like in British India or in the British Caribbean. They're a cut above, one would say.

[Brianna Lyman]

Absolutely. And you have to keep thinking about them, too, how they were thinking about themselves, which is that they were Englishmen and they wanted their rights established. Because this is going to be woven throughout a lot of the problems and the violence that we see in which they were shocked that their own blood effectively. Right. That the Crown could turn on its own people. And you'll see that a lot in 1776. You'll see with the rejection of the Olive Branch petition, you'll see with the hiring of foreign mercenaries in 1776. Because that's what shocked a lot of the colonists to their core, to know that the Crown hired Germans and others to slaughter, effectively, Englishmen. Right. That's. That's something that's really important here. And if you go back, you know, a few years after you have the Stamp act, you get to the point where we get to the Boston Massacre, Right? So that's in 1770. That's really important because you have a lot of people mad about another set of acts that they had placed importing, you know, tea and paper and other things that, again, were used on the daily. So that causes some friction. And in maybe it's February, in February, late February, Early March, a group of colonists go and they attack a loyalist merchant because he is, he's a loyalist, right? And when they do this, the guy who owns this shop obviously gets upset and a customs officer actually fires into the crowd of columnists. And this is when they kill an 11 year old, okay. And I can't remember his name right now, so if you know it, please say it. But they kill an 11 year old who's there and his funeral is massive and Sam Adams and others use him as the face of like martyrdom, right? This 11 year old boy protesting the crown is shot and killed by a British customs officer. And so you see a week later, you see these fights between colonists and the British continue to kind of heat up. And then you get to the actual Boston Massacre where they're facing off again like the British and the colonists. And the British fire into the crowd and they kill five colonists. Okay? And this is the moment you see everything turn because at this point, colonists are realizing the Crown is willing to use deadly force on their own people. So it's not just no taxation without representation. It's we have rights. And the rights should include that our government doesn't fire upon us for disagreements.

[Hayden Daniel]

Yep, they fire into the crowd, kill five colonists. But colonists still aren't totally on board for independence. Not yet anyway. And you have the Boston Tea Party three years later in 1773. That's, that's basically the act of Radicals under Samuel Adams and the other Sons of Liberty. But taken in context with how the rest of the colonists were thinking, I mean, they may have agreed with, you know, the dumping of the tea, but the Sons of Liberty in 1773 are still pretty out there and don't really reflect the majority of colonists. But then it's sort of the British reaction to it sends a lot more people into the Sons of Liberty camp with the intolerable acts in 1774 and the Government of Massachusetts act of 1774, that basically just overrides any and all local government in Massachusetts, says that the royal governor has complete and total control of the colony, no matter what you colonists want.

[Brianna Lyman]

Yeah, absolutely. And around that same time, that's when the first Continental Congress meets in 1774. So you're coming on the heels of all these acts, you're coming on the heels of the Boston Tea Party and they create the First Continental Congress. And delegates from 12 colonies met together and they do this olive branch appeal. Right? So again, they are petitioning the King for redress. So at this point, they still do not Want independence. I think at this point, Ben Franklin is still pretty much on board of reconciliation. Right. Because this is someone who ultimately becomes a huge fighter for independence, but for a long time was on board with reconciliation. So at this point, the First Continental Congress is meeting, and they're just figuring out ways to get the king to hear them. But the problem to your point, Hayden, is Massachusetts is unlike any other colony at this point. They are bearing the brunt of the king's ire. Right. So other colonies aren't feeling that same pressure. And that's going to be important because it's going to be maybe like a year into the First Continental Congress. We get to 1775. Ish. You get to Lexington and Concord, you get to Bunker Hill, and that's when you start seeing Virginia, or at least leading voices from Virginia step up and basically say, all for one, one for all. Right. We have to stand with our brethren in Massachusetts.

[Hayden Daniel]

Yeah. The colonies sort of. Sort of joined together in a couple of pretty basic ways. In 1774, after the First Continental Congress convenes, the petition to the king, of course, they all send that and the Continental association, which is a broad boycott of certain British goods, to more of just protests against these unpopular taxes. But something interesting that I found while doing a little research for this episode. The First Continental Congress is convened in October 1774. By November, King George III is already thinking about this could spiral into an independence movement. He told Lord north in a letter and said, blows must decide whether they are to be subject to this country, England, or independent. So he's already thinking about one using military force to put down this sort of grumbling and this sort of beginning of organization of the colonies. And he's already thinking that this associate, this Continental association, could try to break off from England altogether.

[Brianna Lyman]

Yeah. And you see that reflected then in 1775, one of the first episodes I did for Countdown to Freedom, if anybody here is a viewer of that is what happened on January 1, 1776. But what happened on January 1, 1776 ties back to what was happening in April of 1775 in Williamsburg, in which the crown, right, the royal authority in Virginia, was seizing gunpowder that rightfully belonged to the colonists. Right. It was their militia and military, and the royal governor was seizing that. So even at, you know, mid-1775, early 1775, you're seeing this tension, Right. You're seeing, I think, actually today. Wait, today's the 17th, isn't today? Battle of Bunker Hill, 1775.

[Hayden Daniel]

Yes. The day that this is being recorded is June 17, 2026, the 251st anniversary of Bunker Hill. We did not plan that, by the way.

[Brianna Lyman]

Oh, that's so funny. I just. I literally just realized that. Okay, sorry for derailing.

[Hayden Daniel]

No, that's a fun little fact.

[Brianna Lyman]

But, yeah, so. So, yeah, so. So at this point in time, we're not declaring independence at this point in time, despite the Battle of Bunker Hill, despite Lexington and Concord, there are still voices within the Continental Congress and colonists who want to remain with the Crown. They're scared, and they just want to be reconciled. And you'll see another Olive Branch petition, I think, in September of 1775, be sent to the Crown. But that's when the King formally rejects it, and that's when he makes clear that, you know, by sword, and he will keep the colonies at bay. This is also when you start having the king. Now, the colonies don't know this at this point, but towards late 1775, he's ready to hire foreign mercenaries. By January, word is spreading amongst England. January of 1776, word is spreading in England, but it doesn't reach the colonies until May or June. The King has decided he's going to send foreigners to kill his own people.

[Hayden Daniel]

That's a big. That's a big sort of stumbling block between any kind of reconciliation that could come. Could have come between the colonists and the king and the British government at large is that it takes a couple months for news to get across the Atlantic in those days. Yeah. The Olive Branch Petition is adopted in July 1775. Of course, it takes. Again, takes a couple months to get over there. But the colonists also do another declaration the next day, July 6, 1775, the Declaration of the Causes and Necessity of Taking Up Arms. So they're both saying, one hand, we're still loyal to you. We don't really want to break off entirely. If you can redress our grievances, we'll be fine staying with you. But also, the way you're acting right now, we need to take up arms against you and resist you because you are grossly violating our rights as English subjects. And then in August 1775, right around when the Olive Branch petition finally gets over there, George issues the Proclamation of Rebellion, in which he says the colonists are under open rebellion against the Crown. This will be resolved by military force and basically no other means. Basically just throwing out any chance the Olive Branch petition has a. Has a chance of turning things around before he's even read it. That kind of puts the colonists in a. Between a rock and a Hard place at this point in August 1775, they've been declared rebels, basically, but they want to stay with England. So they're kind of stuck in this really weird position of we want to be loyal subjects, we want to stay within the Empire, but we're also being accused of being armed rebels. And the punishment that comes with rebellion, of course, is execution and brutal military repression. So they're being torn now, being torn in late 1775, between their sort of previous loyalty to the Crown and being English and their sort of new status as rebels who are sort of being forced into this role by George III and his proclamation of rebellion.

[Brianna Lyman]

Yeah. And then. Then the question becomes, okay, well, then what do you do for the colonists who, despite the violence, despite the king making clear that they. That he sees the colonists in open rebellion, he's going to use military force. How do you convince them that, you know, they should convince their delegates to support independence? And that's where Thomas Paine comes in. So Thomas Paine releases Common Sense on. I think it's actually January. This is disputed because the first print, I think, is January 10th, but they say came out January 11th, so we'll just say January 10th. First print of Common Sense printed in Philadelphia comes out. And it basically appeals to, quite literally, the colonist common sense. And it says, I know that you guys feel something innately is wrong. Right. The way that you guys are being treated is wrong, but you just can't put your finger on what it is. And I'm going to put the finger on it, and the finger on it tells us that your natural rights are being violated. And this is important because you have people like John Adams, you have people like Sam Adams, who's super fiery. He definitely gets. I don't want to call them extremists, but he gets the people who are already on board with independence fired up. But he's not as good as reaching those moderates. Right. You have John Adams, you have Jefferson, Ben Franklin. These are men of the Enlightenment era. And they're not necessarily messengers for the colonists you'll find in a pub, so to speak. Right. They're messengers for the elites. They're messengers for allies overseas. They're messengers for France to see what's going on. And so Thomas Paine comes along and he puts into simpler terms what our Founding fathers had already been discussing and talking about. And this just becomes one of, like, the best sellers of all time, like, right behind the Bible during this era, which is extremely unique considering. It's like they had, like, a Thousand printing presses everywhere. You know, things were. Things were tough, but the common sense ended up being read in pubs. You could walk into a pub and people were reading it out loud to others. So this just spreads like wildfire through the colonies and you slowly begin to see people kind of understanding what exactly was at stake with everything going on.

[Hayden Daniel]

And it was even a bestseller in England.

[Brianna Lyman]

Oh, really? I didn't know that.

[Hayden Daniel]

Yep, it was quite popular.

[Brianna Lyman]

Now they don't have any common sense over there. So. So after. Yes, I'll keep going, actually, because I. It's a little more recent. So after common sense comes out, you have little. I'll call them microaggressions, even though they weren't really micro. So again, January 1st, and I always mispronounces Norfolk, Virginia. That's when you see the British firing on the town of Norfolk. And that's actually one of the grievances that Jefferson lays out in, in the Declaration that the King is, you know, basically burning down our towns. And this isn't the only time the British do that. The British are going to. You're going to see, especially in January and February, the British are burning places in Rhode island, they're burning places in Massachusetts, in New Hampshire. And the colonists are actually doing a really decent job of fighting back. Many cases they literally just repel, you know, a small group of the British army, but they do it anyway. And that's when you begin to see the power and the. The willingness that the colonists have to stake their claim to their own land and their towns and their commun. Duties.

[Hayden Daniel]

Yeah. I'm sure you've seen through your. Your Countdown to Freedom series on X, you've been able to see sort of in a more micro way, the evolution from January 1st, 1776, we're closing in on. On July 4th, sort of that evolution of those opinions on independence almost day by day, how it's shifting slowly but surely towards July 4th.

[Brianna Lyman]

Yeah, yeah. You know, I think probably the. The biggest turning point, so the big. The biggest turning point militarily is the end of the siege of Boston. So that happens in February and March. Boston had been under siege by the British since Lexington and Concord, since Battle Bunker Hill, since that time, which, by the way, actually. Battle Bunker Hill. Fun story. Two of my. I think it's my seventh great grandparents. One came from a Loyalist family, I know, don't judge me. And the other was a Patriot family. And they were. My great. My seventh great grandmother was like five years old and her future husband was like seven. And they Both watched the Battle of Bunker Hill from opposite side sides with their family and had to flee, actually. So just a fun fact, but anyway,

[Hayden Daniel]

feel free to judge in the comments.

[Brianna Lyman]

Feel free to judge my loyalist family. Screw them. So, so Washington had ended the siege of Boston, which was crucial because Boston was obviously one, just a major port. And two, what the British really hoped to do to curtail any full blown revolution is they wanted to control from Massachusetts to New York and they wanted to control those waterways. And so you, the, the colonists and George Washington were really focused on taking control of that. And Washington ultimately tried to take control of New York and he failed for a while. And that, that, that caused a lot of problems because that kind of divided all the colonies. So that's militarily speaking, but politically speaking, the colonies are trying to convince one another. Here's what to do. Virginia really takes the lead on this. I mean, out of Virginia are the titans of the revolution because they are the most vocal and they are the most, I would say, educated in the sense that they were able to put their words to paper. Right. And you get to May 15, and two things happen on May 15. So in Virginia, Virginia unanimously votes that Virginia in the Continental Congress writes the state legislature, I'm going to call the state legislature, but it's not the state assembly, I think it might be the term votes that the delegates at the Continental Congress should vote for full independence from Virginia. Right. So they're telling Virginia delegates go for it. And on that same day, the Continental Congress itself basically says, well, why don't we just kind of gather some, some ideas for why we would want independence and maybe start thinking about encouraging colonies to do that on their own, right, to, to look for reasons to declare independence and do that on their own. And so Richard Henry Lee, who is the like, I think he's the great grand uncle of Robert E. Lee Hayden, you would know that better than I do.

[Hayden Daniel]

Yeah.

[Brianna Lyman]

Okay, great.

[Hayden Daniel]

Yes.

[Brianna Lyman]

Okay, great. So Richard Henry Lee gets to Philadelphia and this is just so exciting, folks, especially because this happens around this time in 1776 now. And he puts forward what's known as the Lee Resolution. And he says that the colonies are of right and ought to be free and independent states. And this resolution is so powerful and it's very similar to what you'll read in the Declaration of Independence. Okay? So he puts that forward, but not everybody's on board. So they debate for a few days and then on June 10, the Continental Congress says, all right, in case the colonies decide we want to, you know, declare independence. Let's not waste any time. Let's appoint a committee of five and they go home for the day. And the next day on June 11, they actually appoint that committee of five. Right. So it's Jefferson, it's John Adams, it's Ben Franklin, it's. Is it Livingston? And who's the other one? Is it Sherman?

[Hayden Daniel]

Roger Sherman.

[Brianna Lyman]

Okay, Roger Sherman. Right. And that's one's New York and one's Pennsylvania, I believe. And so they appoint the committee of five and they task Thomas Jefferson with writing a Declaration of Independence or at least giving reasons. And a few days after that, Virginia once again takes the lead the state and they put out their own resolution, basically giving, giving reasons why they should declare independence and why it's necessary. And Thomas Jefferson almost copies that verbatim, basically. Not verbatim necessari, but the main points, the ideas. And he takes any puts out into declaration. So this time 250 years ago, Jefferson is actively working on the Declaration while the Continental Congress is trying to convince those states that are, you know, a little bit on the edge about independence to join.

[Hayden Daniel]

You heard it here first, folks. Thomas Jefferson's plagiarist,

[Brianna Lyman]

don't let him hear that.

[Hayden Daniel]

He's got way worse allegations against him that are also baseless.

[Brianna Lyman]

So I was going to say they're also baseless. I just read a book about ruining his legacy with the smear and false accusations about Sally Hemings, which we should do an episode on.

[Hayden Daniel]

Yeah, I'll keep going.

[Brianna Lyman]

I'll keep. I'll take us. Right, let me take, let me take you guys right to July 4th. So, so Thomas Jefferson's working on this declaration. And I look to a state like Delaware because I think Delaware is interesting. So recently, in 1776, not in 2026, but in 1776, Delaware kind of takes a really big first step and they become, I think, the first, first state to like declare no whatsoever allegiance to the crown, like full blown independence. And they also declare independence from Pennsylvania. Okay, so under the Pennsylvania Charter, three of their counties had been under the authority of Pennsylvania. And the Delaware folks were like, actually, no, we want to do what we want to do without Pennsylvania's oversight. And so you see Delaware become the state that just out of nowhere is like this fiery little ball of independence. Right? We always think of Massachusetts and Virginia and, and I have Delaware. And Delaware is going to be really important because of Cesar Rodney. Okay. And I'm going to give this episode on the Countdown to Freedom when we get to it. But he's one of the most interesting Founding Fathers because he himself has a midnight ride, much like Paul Revere, that doesn't get talked about enough. But that was so important because on July 2, the Delaware delegates were deadlocked on do we vote for independence? Do we not? And Cesar Rodney literally rode horseback in a massive thunderstorm through the night on July 2nd to get to Philadelphia and break that deadlocked vote. Said Delaware now becomes another state to vote for independence. But had Delaware went the other way, maybe we wouldn't have had the Declaration when we had it, maybe we wouldn't have had independence at all. Like, we don't. We just don't know if one state or two states or three states said, you know what, let's keep going for reconciliation. We don't know what could have happened. We could have given the crown more time to kind of regroup and, and get their head together and slaughter us and, you know, push us down into submission.

[Hayden Daniel]

So every moment mattered, whereas it took months for things to get across the Atlantic to correspond with the British. Everything's going, coming very quickly in the colonies in the, in the first six, seven months of 1776. So you had this weird kind of incongruity between correspondence between the king and the colonies and then the colonies amongst themselves, and things just kind of spiral out of control from the British perspective and spiral into place for the colonists or the pro independence colonists. Even then, even with all the acumen and all the literary weight behind the pro independence movement from people like Thomas Paine and then Thomas Jefferson and the other founders who are advocating for independence, a third of people roughly remain loyalists, and probably a lot of them are remain loyalists because they're hesitant about breaking away completely. Like they might be mad about the taxes or maybe sympathetic when it comes to their rights as Englishmen being violated. But going independent is, is one step too far for Mo.

[Brianna Lyman]

For a lot of them, yeah. And, and I think you see this, and you see it in the Civil War too, where families and neighbors are literally divided on the line of which side. Right. In the Civil War, you had brothers and brothers, one side on the Union, one side for the Confederacy. So families split apart. You also see that with the Revolution. I think the best example is Ben Franklin. So Ben Franklin's son was the royal governor of New Jersey. His name was William Franklin. And actually this week in 1776, he ended up being arrested because he was declared to be an enemies of the. An enemy of the liberties of the state of New Jersey, so to speak. Right. And Ben Franklin did not try to do anything to help his son. In fact, when William was, you know, placed in jail, his wife was very sick and he begged to go see her before she died. And the Continental Congress said no. And Ben Franklin did not extend any help to get his son out to see it. In fact, I think it might have been George Washington who tried to work with the Continental Congress so that William could see his wife before she passed away. But that's the length that people are willing to go to in this war, and especially in places, even Philadelphia. Philadelphia had a lot of loyalists, Right. So as this movement's happening, you have people now who are going to give harbor to the British. They're going to support them. New York especially is just Loyalist, you know, central. So even after we declare independence, you have a problem in which a lot of colonists are still hoping for reconciliation, only this time by submission.

[Hayden Daniel]

So as we get closer to the fateful day of July 4, 1776, what are some of the major debates going on in the Continental Congress about independence itself?

[Brianna Lyman]

Well, first of all, I mean, these are colonies that have. By declaring independence, they obviously were throwing off the royal government and there were questions about who was going to govern the colonies, how were they going to do. And obviously, you get to those are those debates during the, you know, Constitutional Convention and those debates, like, that's when you see it kind of percolate. But leading up to the Declaration of Independence, the founders and the delegates were still weary. We were weary because we didn't know if we were going to get foreign assistance. We knew we would need foreign assistance. Right. And getting France on board with us was something that we had to prove to them. And Ben Franklin was an ambassador over there. And. Or maybe ambassador is not the right word, both to say. Ben Franklin was very, very. Yes, thank you. He was very friendly with the French. And we had to prove to them that they should get in on our side, because, remember, if they got in on our side and things went sour for us, I mean, they are losing an ally in Britain and not gaining one in a future independent America. So a lot of the delegates were concerned about foreign alliances at this point. They were concerned about funding. You had founders like Robert Morris actually go out and fund the revolution himself because they didn't know where they'd get the money from again, especially because the colonists weren't so keen, not all. All columnists were keen on this. And it's not like they had power to raise a ton of money either. Right. And wars are very expensive. We know that in fact, wars are so expensive and the, the, you know, Continental Congress didn't have money that so many soldiers always, you know, complained about desertion. That was a big problem in 1775-1776, where people would go home as soon as their enlistment expire because they weren't being paid.

[Hayden Daniel]

Yep. The Continental Congress had chronic shortages of money, mostly because I think they probably couldn't decide how. How they could raise money. Like, what authority do we have? Which of course won't be settled until the Constitution. Like that's something that sinks the Articles of Confederation after the war is like, we don't know how to raise money.

[Brianna Lyman]

Right, right. And in fact, with. With the. We don't know how to raise money. You know, you can go to the Newburgh conspiracy with George Washington. This happened in Newburgh, New York, and there was going to be a mutiny because the soldiers just hadn't been paid. And they were fed up. I mean, they sacrificed a lot and a lot of people. These colonists were the sole breadwinners for their family. It's not like women were out there working. Back at that time, a lot of people left farms behind. And even if they were small farms, it's a big undertaking, especially for a woman who's raising children, to also now tend to a farm full time. And so a lot of people were losing things that sustained their family. Their family was feeling the personal cost of this war as well. And so you have the Newburgh Mutiny, where these Continental soldiers, they're going to rebel. And George Washington shows up and he's trying to kind of calm them down and say, we're going to figure out a way to get you paid. And he pauses because he, he can't read a piece of paper. He has, and he says something along the lines of, oh, forgive me, in service of my country, I have grown blind. And it's in that moment that the room of, I mean, tough men, some of them break down in tears because in that moment they realized George Washington has sacrificed too, for this country. We may have lost pay, but he's now almost blind. Right. But he. They were doing it for something bigger. And so you see instances like that where the Continental soldiers are so fed up for not being paid, and then, you know, luckily, George Washington ends a mutiny, but it could have turned out differently.

[Hayden Daniel]

So when would you say the tide turns decisively from we're just trying to re. Establish our rights as Englishmen to we're going to go fully independent?

[Brianna Lyman]

For most people, I mean, obviously common sense does get that, that ball kind of rolling? I don't know. Because the momentum. So common sense gets the ball rolling for colonists. Right. Then you have the momentum building within the Continental Congress between February and mid May. Right. And mid May is that turning point that I mentioned when you had Congress passing that resolution saying that colonies should adopt new governments for the safety of their own constituents. Right. And so when you have that, it's under the understanding that your rights of English as Englishmen are being violated. And so you need a new government to protect those rights. So maybe that's, that's probably the turning point is that May 15th date, and then of course the June and July declaration and the Committee of Five. And I think once, I think once the fighting really ramped up is when people were convinced one way or another hardline, like there were no more people who were on the fence that could be persuaded. You had to be all in or all out.

[Hayden Daniel]

The fair weather soldiers had all gone home.

[Brianna Lyman]

Yes.

[Hayden Daniel]

So paraphrase Thomas Banks.

[Brianna Lyman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then what is the it's not common sense that he writes? He writes another one and he says, these are the times that try men's souls. That is, which one is that?

[Hayden Daniel]

You're gonna put me on the spot here.

[Brianna Lyman]

Oh God, I can't remember. It's not common sense. Common sense is. And you know, I think the best quote from common sense is the sun has never shown on a cause of greater worth. And actually, maybe, maybe that's the kickoff part for us. You know, the sun never shone on a cause of greater worth. It wasn't just because the no taxation without representation. Right. All this goes back to natural rights. This is the age of Enlightenment. And what the founders understood uniquely, what common sense was trying to disseminate to the public is that the Englishmen have natural rights. Right. Your rights as Englishmen are based on your natural rights. And the King was ignoring those natural rights. And what's interesting is as the founders keep kind of going over this natural rights idea, they kind of start to themselves, see, like there, there really could be no reconciliation with the Crown. Because how do you reconcile with the Crown when the Crown fundamentally does not believe in natural rights? You can't have a king if you believe in natural rights. Right. No person is born with a God given right to rule another. But that's not what the monarchy says. Right? The monarchy literally believes in divine rights of kings. That somebody was born into the right family and they are born with a God given right to rule you that flies in the face of every natural right ideology. So I also think the founders knew that there was no going back, but it was a matter of convincing the public, a public which had spent their entire lives, their generations before them's entire lives under the rule of the Crown. I mean, this is the first time you're going to see people govern themselves. There isn't a crown that establishes who's in charge. Right. There's not a royal family, which creates

[Hayden Daniel]

a nice dichotomy because in England, Parliament is supreme because they had already had the English Civil wars, the glorious revolution in 1688, that had established the supremacy of Parliament. But with the colonies, since most of them are royal colonies with royal charters issued by the king, the king has a lot more power in the colonies than he does at home, which I think is why in our own histories, we accentuate the deeds of the king rather than the deeds of the Parliament. Because, of course, it's Parliament passing all these. All these taxes. But we blame the king. But it's because of the king has far more power in the colonies than he does in England.

[Brianna Lyman]

Right. And that's a really good point to make. And another reason, I think, why people blame the king and they're not wrong to do so, was it was the king who was rejecting those olive branch petitions. Right. It was the king who had put his face, for example, on hiring foreign mercenaries. So those are things that angered the colonists. And at the end of the day, like when the royal army is firing on towns and cities, colonists aren't thinking of Parliament. Right. They're thinking of who's the face of all this. And the face of all of it, to your point, because he had more power in the colonies, is the king.

[Hayden Daniel]

And back to. Back to the point that you said was the. Was the turning point. That and the Lee resolution are basically unknown in today's education system.

[Brianna Lyman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Hayden Daniel]

And again, what is probably the two decisive moments of the American Revolution, besides the Declaration of Independence and Yorktown, the big ones are basically unknown.

[Brianna Lyman]

Well, exactly. And people, too. I. That's. I don't think people realize. And I think part of the reason, like you don't hear about the Lee resolution is in part because of his ties to Robert E. Lee. Right. People. People think that that's a sin. And you can't talk about anybody related to him, including Robert E. Lee's, is his father, Lighthorse, Light Horse Harry Lee. Is that what I'm thinking? Right. I mean, a Revolutionary War hero. Right. But we don't talk about him. We don't Know about him?

[Hayden Daniel]

Yep. He gave up. He gave Washington's eulogy. He's the man who says he was the first in the hearts of his countryman. Perhaps the quote that best defines George Washington was said by Robert E. Lee's father.

[Brianna Lyman]

Right. It's so funny that we. We don't talk about that enough. And that's just something that everybody should know. But to your point with the Lee Resolution, remember, the entire July 4th is a piggyback off the Lee resolution. Right? So June 7th comes around. Richard Henry Lee puts forward the Lee Resolution. It's the Lee Resolution that triggers the formation of the Committee of Five. Right. Because they want to convince the other colonies to vote for the Lee Resolution. Thomas Jefferson writes a declaration in order to justify the Lee Resolution. He wants to explain it. And on July 2nd. Right. July 2nd is when Congress adopts the Lee Resolution, which is a vote for independence. All. And I'm not. I don't want to say all the Declaration did because obviously Declaration is extremely important. But all the Declaration did was explain why they adopted Lee's resolution. And Thomas Jefferson, of course, gets the right amount of credit for that. But we ignore that Thomas Jefferson only wrote the Declaration because the Continental Congress said to them, on June 10, in case we adopt the Lee Resolution, let's have an explanation as to why we did it. Thomas Jefferson, go write that for us.

[Hayden Daniel]

All about optics. It's always ever been about optics that hadn't been named Lee Resolution and then been named Lee Declaration of Independence. That might be the document that we have in the National Archives today, but neither here nor there. So by July 4th, 1776, this had become. This had evolved from grumbling and protests about taxes to an armed rebellion against the Crown, to a truly American Revolution. We really sort of put our foot down and said, we are going to irrevocably split from England and make our own nation. So that necessarily means that the leaders of the colonies who passed the Declaration are now waging this revolution for a distinct particular people who will make this new nation. So who were the founders really forging their new nation for? Who were the Americans they were fighting for in their eyes?

[Brianna Lyman]

Yeah, I'm gonna ask that in one second, but I have to bring up the story because I think it's. It's one of the most interesting ones. Benjamin Harrison, a signer from Virginia, when they were signing the Declaration, the room was described as being just extremely tense and extremely quiet. Everybody was nervous. People's hands were visibly shaking. I forgot which delegate's hand was like, visibly, like, just awfully shaking. And Benjamin Harrison cracked. Cracked a joke, and he said, well, look, either we're going to succeed or we're all going to be hanged. And at least I'll be dead immediately because I'm so fat. He didn't use the word fat, but he said he's. He said, I'm so overweight, but some of you are scrawny, so you'll hang there. And in that moment, he broke the tension. And one of the. Maybe it was. Maybe it was John Adams, who later wrote about that. But don't quote me on John Adams, one of the founders, who's a big name. And I want to say John Adams later wrote that Benjamin Harris, like Harrison, did break the tension in the room and kind of gave everybody, like, that moment of like. Like, okay, we're doing this, which is just. Just a funny little story. But to your point, John Adams had written a letter to his wife Abigail in May, and he was lamenting the separation between him and his wife and his young children at the time. And he said something along the lines of, I'm doing this for my children, and if they can't understand that, then they are not my children. Right there. That encapsulates what the entire revolution was about. These founders knew that this was going to. They were. They were going to die. We're all going to die. Right? But they didn't want to leave their children in the same spot that they had been left in. Right? The same spot that their parents had left them in. Because, you know, of course, this all starts in the 1760s, but even before then, in the 1750s, there are some, you know, grumblings of the Crown's treatment of the colonies, but nothing. Nothing too serious or notable, I'd argue. But he's doing it for their children. Right? And you see in the founding documents a constant refrain of for our posterity. Right. Well, what is our posterity? It's for the people who were in the colonies at that time and their descendants. And people always say, but. But, you know, George Washington said that we're going to welcome immigrants. And, yeah, George Washington was very clear, and he said that, you know, we could welcome immigrants of really good character. You know, we want to make sure that people are assimilating to us. And if you have assimilation, that means that you have a big enough dominant native culture that small groups of foreigners can easily assimilate into. Right? But if you have half foreigners, half natives, then you don't really have assimilation, because what are they assimilating into when there's, you know, the same amount of people. And I think the best way to explain it is John Jay in Federalist paper number two. He kind of echoes the Washington says, and I think in Washington's Farewell Address, which is that Americans are bound together. They have, you know, providence has pleased us with the same religion and habits and manners and basically ancestors. Right. We were all former Englishmen for the most part. Of course, you had some Germans here and there, but none. None in a degree that was noticeable, if that's the right word.

[Hayden Daniel]

Yeah. County differences, you know, southern England versus Northern England versus Scotland, all that kind of stuff. Small differences. But otherwise they're all temperamentally disposed towards the type of government that America was going for in the early republic.

[Brianna Lyman]

Yes. And that the type of government note you just made is extremely important. I think it was Hamilton. And he wrote in a letter and he said, I'm paraphrasing a little, but he said, what's good for the people of Montesquieu will not be good for the people of Philadelphia. And what he was trying to say is that different cultures and communities of people are not all going to be able to live under the same type of republican form of government. Some people are better off living under a monarchy. Some people are better off living under despotism. Some people are better off living in a pure democracy, and some people are better off living in a republic form of government. And it's not to say that one is necessarily better than the other. It's whatever a culture creates. Right. A community creates their political leaders. And some cultures and religions and habits produce different types of government. Right. And so that's one thing the founders emphasized. Right. Jefferson worried that if you had mass migration from monarchies, that you would import principles of despotism. Right. You would import people who want a monarchy. Again, they wouldn't be able to live under a republican form of government. He wanted immigrants who could, like, basically scatter about the country rights that it's small, small jobs they can assimilate, but ultimately who come from places where self government is a possibility. Now, I know the question becomes, well, then, what about all the English? They lived under a monarchy, but. Well, the English understood to your point, a lot of them over there were actually sympathetic to our rights. Right. And they understood why we were declaring independence.

[Hayden Daniel]

Oh, yeah. They had already established their own rights in the 17th century, like all the reasons for the English Civil War and then the glorious revolution in 1688. That makes parliament the supreme power in England. All the reasons that the English leaders then cite for their rebellion against Charles the First are almost the exact same reasons that we cite in the Declaration of Independence and the Lee Resolution for why we're rebelling against the monarchy. So they, people in England totally understand where we're coming from.

[Brianna Lyman]

Right. And they also have same language, a lot of cases, similar religion, same habits, and same shared history. Like, even though the colonies obviously had their own history going back to the Mayflower, they still had the same kind of heroes, if that makes sense. Right. Go back 200 years and they're, they're all tie together. And again, these were English colonies. So what was happening in the colonies was happening in London was, you know, hand in hand with one another. So they all had same history and shared values. Whereas importing someone from, you know, a far off place even, I would even argue even Germany at that time. Like, sure, we had German immigrants, but then Franklin was not happy about them at one point. Maybe it was the 1750s, where he was like, they're not assimilating. They don't speak our language. They have a different culture. And it was making it difficult to keep continuity and unity in the colony.

[Hayden Daniel]

Yep. And even then, the immigrant numbers in America, in or non English, I should say, are basically just confined to the Dutch in New York and the Germans in Pennsylvania. And even relatively, they're very tiny. And for the first 50, 60 years of this country, from 1790 to about 1848, almost all the immigrants are from England and Scotland and Wales. And it's very low. It's like between 15 and 20,000 per year.

[Brianna Lyman]

Right.

[Hayden Daniel]

It's extremely low. And it doesn't, it doesn't explode until the Irish and the Germans start coming over in the 1840s and 50s.

[Brianna Lyman]

Right. And when you speak about the Dutch, I live in New York, and in fact, in the area I live in, it's very heavily Dutch influenced because this was part of the Dutch establishment. And I think what's interesting is you don't see the Dutch immigrating to the colonies pretty much after we lose control of New York in what, like 1650s or something, I think is when they

[Hayden Daniel]

lose control, I kind of want to say 1664.

[Brianna Lyman]

That sticks out to me some reason I'm thinking like mid-1650s. So I'm probably wrong on that. But what was interesting is when the British assumed control of what was then New Amsterdam, they were just shocked at the licentiousness of New York City. The Dutch were maybe like the first multicultural people. Maybe that's the best word to Describe you had people from Morocco in New York City, all this stuff. And you also had a crap ton of prostitution. Right? No morals, no values. I mean, it was really just like a free for all. And when the English came in, they were like, you know, the Hillary Clinton me, when she walks into the apartment, she looks around, she's like, like what? What am I looking at? Yeah, that's kind of how the English felt when they saw how the Dutch ran New York City. And so I think that even goes to show you that even, like European immigrants, like, they didn't produce the same culture and society that the English did when they came on the Mayflower and then end up taking over New York. Right. They produced a very licentious society. They had no, you know, rules and stuff. So it just goes to show you why it matters where immigrants were coming from.

[Hayden Daniel]

Yep, that's a good point. But all the other. The English immigrants, like you said, have similar history, similar culture, similar religion, broadly speaking, you know, different denominations of Protestantism, but almost entirely Protestant by 1776, but different dreams ultimately. And that's what tears them apart in 1776.

[Brianna Lyman]

Yeah, yeah. 100. And I, I do think that the founders, at the time of. Well, I guess maybe, maybe after we've ratified the Constitution or maybe right before we ratified the Constitution, there were serious concerns about immigration. Elder Bridge Jerry, John Jay, they were very worried about who could come here, who could be naturalized and who could be in our government. That was a big debate. And I think it was, I think it was Elder Bridge Jerry who said, permit me to hint whether it's wise to admit foreign nationals into our government. And he was trying to argue that we don't know if they're going to have Republican principles and values. Right. We don't want, for example, someone from Somalia, I'm using 20, 26 examples, but we don't want someone from Somalia, country run by the patronage network and corruption coming and being in our government because they don't know any better. Right. This is what they grew up with, but it's not what we grew up with, with. And I think it was, it was Hamilton or Madison, I wish I could remember it was Hamilton or Madison who said, oh, we don't, we don't need to put a provision in for that because the people will never elect someone who's not one of their own. And it's just funny you look back in hindsight, because I don't think they expected America to do what she has done when it comes to immigration, which is loathe its own people and its own race so much, you know, that the white guilt loathe it so much that they were willing to import foreigners who were incompatible in such large numbers that those foreigners can then elect their own foreign representatives in our government.

[Hayden Daniel]

Yep, I think that's exactly right. That the founders could not fathom that that would happen. So they didn't bother to make a law about it. They said, well, they'll never vote in someone who's not Christian, or they'll never bring in people who aren't probably English, but European, certainly. Like, we don't have to worry about saying, well, you can't elect Somalians or Turks or Indians or anything, because it just won't ever happen. It's. It's unfathomable to them, literally.

[Brianna Lyman]

Right. And it's unfathomable to them because despite what the left wants to tell you, we were not created to be a melting pot. We were not created to be the dumping ground for the entire world. Like, America was not created that immigrants had a place to come to. And this is something you hear not only from the left, but, like, prior to 2016, most of the Republican Party, I mean, Ronald Reagan, you know, was totally for mass migration, so long as it was done legally. Right. Because we were told legal is good, and therefore it's okay. And we're a melting pot. And some people were taught that we're a salad bowl. And it's like, no, absolutely not. But the reason you hear people say that is because after Ellis island, and I know we're getting off 1776, but after Ellis island, all these newfound immigrants, they wanted a place in American history, Right. They felt like they didn't have their contributions reflected in history. And part of the reason is because, like, their contributions just weren't that massive to the foundation of America. Right. That's not even, like, a disputable fact. Sure. You had immigrants come here, and they physically built up skyscrapers. Right. But who was financing those things? You know, and if the immigrants were so, you know, the skyscraper argument. My parents make this all the time. I go, okay, go to Italy. Do you see skyscrapers there? Right. Do you see all these buildings there? No. Right. So it's not like it's like an Italian thing that was brought here or an Irish thing that was brought here. This was American ingenuity financed by American financiers. Obviously, Americans also were involved in this. But Ellis Islanders wanted a place in American history, and so they had to create this idea that America was basically nothing before 1880, you know, but once Ellis island opened in the late 1880s, that's when America really reclaimed or claimed her glory and her rightful place in history because of those people. As if what the founders did in their descendants did was nothing.

[Hayden Daniel]

And it's just such a contrast to what, how Americans talked about themselves before that, before the Statue of Liberty, before the Ellis Islanders start coming. They're all in the 19th century. They're all obsessed with the Founding. They constantly talk about it, Both sides talk about it. In the lead up to the Civil War. It's everywhere.

[Brianna Lyman]

Yeah, Daniel Webster is. Daniel Webster and Abraham Lincoln are two of the best people to look for. Daniel Webster said in some kind of 1825 speech. Actually, actually, I think he was addressing a memorial for Bunker Hill. I don't quote me on that, but I like vaguely remember this now. But he was doing a, like a rededication or something. And he was like, we are the sepulchers of our forefathers. Right. And he, he. And I know people hate this, but he talked about the ground quite literally being soaked with the blood of our forefathers. Right. Because at that point everyone could be tied. And it was Abraham Lincoln who I think said that, you know, everyone can trace their, their, their lineage back to the Founding. Right. And to your point, that was in the lead up to the, the Civil War and in his inaugural address. Right. The mystic chords of memory. That is probably one of his most famous lines. What are the mystic chords of memory? He's talking about the mystic cords of memory that bound us to the revolution, that fought for the principles of freedom, right and natural rights. So he's, he's quite literally making an appeal to the descendants of the Revolutionary War patriots, which he could do because, I mean, almost everybody. Exactly. Almost everybody could tie themselves back to it.

[Hayden Daniel]

Yeah. And. And in the Gettysburg Address, he makes it even more explicit. Our fathers who brought forth upon this continent.

[Brianna Lyman]

Exactly. And going back, you know, four score and seven years ago today, that is an allusion to the founding time. Right. To our forefathers of 1776. Yep.

[Hayden Daniel]

Well, before we end, I'm going to plug my show on my own show. If you want to know the origins of all of our immigration troubles, go and watch my. Or go and listen to my episode about Irish immigration in the 1840s and 50s. But anyway, just to, just to cap it off, do you have anything else you want to Talk about with 1776 or Countdown Freedom?

[Brianna Lyman]

No, just folks, if you want to tune in, I posted on my x account, Brianna Lyman 2 Countdown to Freedom. I actually have two to go edit some episodes now, so make sure you tune in.

[Hayden Daniel]

All right, well, we'll let you get to that. Thank you again, Brianna, so much for joining me. You've been listening to another edition of Hayden's History Hour. I'm your host, Hayden Daniel, editor of the Federalist. We'll be back soon with more special episodes. Until then, be lovers of freedom and anxious for the frame.

[Brianna Lyman]

Sam.