How To Fight The Foreign Funding Distorting American Elections

Summary

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Podcast Summary:

Federalist Radio Hour
Episode: How To Fight The Foreign Funding Distorting American Elections
Date: August 11, 2026
Host: Matt Kittle, Senior Elections Correspondent at The Federalist
Guest: Caitlin Sutherland, Executive Director of Americans for Public Trust (APT)

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Overview

This episode spotlights the mounting problem of foreign money infiltrating American elections through loopholes in nonprofit and advocacy funding. Host Matt Kittle interviews Caitlin Sutherland about APT’s new database tracking over $5 billion in foreign funding directed at US-based politically active nonprofits. They discuss the origins, effects, and regulatory gaps fueling this issue—emphasizing why reforms and transparency are essential heading into the 2026 midterms.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Scope of the Foreign Money Problem

• [05:17] Caitlin Sutherland introduces APT's new initiative: FollowForeignMoney.org, a searchable database showing which US nonprofits receive foreign funding.

  • “Over $5 billion in foreign money from many, many different foreign countries are funding US-based nonprofits to implement an extremist agenda. It's wrong. It must be stopped.” (Sutherland, 05:17)

• [07:18] Foreign money is technically banned from going directly to candidates, political party committees, or super PACs but is legally funneled into outside groups influencing elections (voter registration, GOTV, state ballot initiatives).

  • “There are a whole host of other electoral tools that are free game to be financed by foreign money because they're not technically elections." (Sutherland, 07:36)

2. How Loopholes Enable Foreign Influence

• [09:47] Example of the "Zuck Bucks" controversy in Wisconsin and the outsized influence of private and foreign donors.

  • "That's something in and of itself. But how much foreign money came out of that 2020 election that has grown into this $5 billion mountain of cash that we're seeing today?" (Kittle, 10:28)

• [10:58] APT’s database allows users to search by group, state, activity, or year—citing the example of the ACLU receiving foreign donations while advocating for domestic US causes.

  • "The database spans back all the way, in some instances to 2002 and goes forward to 2026." (Sutherland, 10:58)
  • Foreign money can be used for election administration, and there are no prohibitions against this.

3. Notable Cases and Profiles

• [14:38] ACLU as a recipient of large foreign donations, much of it from countries like Switzerland, the UK, and Denmark.

  • “We have tracked a lot from the United Kingdom, a lot from Switzerland, Denmark. The fact is that it can happen. There is nothing stopping a country that is a foreign adversary from taking advantage of the same loophole.” (Sutherland, 14:38)

• [16:50] Example of the KR Foundation (Denmark), whose agenda includes reducing car use and meat consumption in America.

• [18:00] Indivisible, a major protest organizer, directly receives funds from Swiss billionaire Hansjörg Wyss—$7.5 million according to the database.

  • “Why are we allowing foreign money to fund US protests? But it's legal and it's happening and we need to make sure we're stopping it.” (Sutherland, 17:51)

4. Foreign Billionaires and Advocacy Funding

• [22:46] Hansjörg Wyss, Swiss billionaire, exemplifies a foreign actor using nonprofit foundations to promote a progressive re-interpretation of the US Constitution.

  • “It is his goal to, quote, reinterpret the American Constitution in the light of a progressive politics.” (Sutherland, 23:25)
  • Wyss’s own writings confirm he aims to influence US domestic politics via these foundations.

• [26:45] Another major player: British billionaire Christopher Hohn, through the innocuously named Children’s Investment Fund Foundation, has funneled $650 million into US climate litigation, ESG causes, and even partnerships involving China.

  • “He actually announced, you know what? I'm no longer going to bankroll causes in the United States, which is such a victory...” (Sutherland, 28:20)

5. Hypocrisy and Political Double Standards

• [29:13] Matt Kittle points out the irony of the political left's past criticisms of “dark money.”
• [30:33] Sutherland notes the left both decries and benefits most from dark money—including foreign sources—while litigators like Mark Elias fight to protect it.
  • “The hypocrisy on the left when it comes to outside spending is astounding.” (Sutherland, 30:33)
  • Elias and his legal team have repeatedly sued to block state bans on foreign funding of ballot initiatives, losing in Ohio and Kansas.

6. Mechanisms for Reform and Resistance

• [33:01] Numerous left-leaning organizations (Sierra Club, League of Conservation Voters, ACLU Foundation) benefit from foreign funds.

• [34:29] Sutherland details the challenge of tracking foreign money in election administration and supports state and federal bans on foreign funds in all levels of electoral influence.

  • “So we have to make sure that we pass laws that say: no foreign money in ballot initiatives, no foreign money in GOTV, no foreign money in ballot harvesting, no foreign money in election administration.” (Sutherland, 34:51)

• [35:55] Distinction between strictly illegal foreign donations (such as via ActBlue to candidates/committees) and the currently legal routes via nonprofits.

  • “But what we have here is foreign money flowing into nonprofits. It’s always that nonprofit ecosystem… That is a different problem because foreign money is legal in those areas.” (Sutherland, 36:38)

7. Legislative Efforts and Constitutional Considerations

• [38:42] Sutherland discusses how to design narrowly tailored reforms that don’t infringe on First Amendment rights while closing the nonprofit loophole for foreign donors.

  • “When you focus on eliminating the foreign money and really, really make it narrowly tailored, you are not going to abridge the First Amendment right to speak of Americans, particularly in an election year.” (Sutherland, 39:41)

• Examples of successful initiatives:

  • Honest Elections Project bans on foreign money for ballot initiatives in Ohio and Kansas upheld in court.
  • House Ways and Means Committee efforts toward greater disclosure for foreign nonprofit funding.

8. The Political Divide and Fixes

• [41:19] APT’s data shows foreign dark money overwhelmingly benefits left-leaning organizations; right-leaning nonprofits often maintain internal bans on accepting foreign funds.

• [42:46] Closing thoughts on the scale and severity of the issue, stressing the importance of transparency and ongoing public involvement.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the stakes:
  “Foreign money is corrupting our political system and more reforms need to be placed on the state and federal level to prohibit this foreign money flowing into other areas outside the candidate themselves.”
  (Sutherland, 09:26)

• On Hansjörg Wyss’s explicit intentions:
  “It is his goal to, quote, reinterpret the American Constitution in the light of a progressive politics.”
  (Sutherland, 23:25)

• On legislation:
  “We have also seen success come out of the House Ways and Means Committee where you have a narrowly tailored approach that would prompt a little bit more disclosure of the foreign money flowing into nonprofits.”
  (Sutherland, 39:59)

• On the left’s funding double standards:
  “Oh, the hypocrisy on the left when it comes to outside spending is astounding ... they're the party that's benefiting from dark money despite decrying it. And now we have the left benefiting not just from dark money, but from foreign dark money.”
  (Sutherland, 30:33)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [05:17] Introduction to APT’s new database tracking foreign-funded nonprofits
• [07:18] How foreign money flows legally via nonprofits (loopholes)
• [10:58] Database capabilities and group-specific tracking (ACLU example)
• [16:50] Specific foreign-funded nonprofits and activist organizations
• [22:46] Case study: Hansjörg Wyss and his stated intent to influence US politics
• [26:45] British billionaire Christopher Hohn and climate/ESG funding
• [29:13] The left’s shifting rhetoric and “dark money” hypocrisy
• [34:29] Legislative reform efforts and proposal specifics
• [38:42] First Amendment considerations in crafting reforms
• [41:19] Analysis of the imbalance of foreign funding by political alignment

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Summary Table: Main Problem Areas & Solutions

| Area of Influence | What’s Happening | Legal Status | Proposed Fix | |------------------------------------|-------------------------------------------------------|----------------------------------|----------------------------------------------| | Direct donations to candidates | Banned for foreign money | Illegal | Already banned/enforced | | Nonprofits & advocacy orgs | $5B+ foreign funding for policy, advocacy, ballot | Legal via loopholes | Close loopholes via state/federal law | | Protest organizing | Foreign-funded organizing/protest (e.g., Indivisible) | Legal | Expand prohibition to cover all expenditures | | Election administration | Funds directed at “neutral” initiatives | Legal | Explicitly ban in all electoral processes |

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Final Thoughts

The episode delivers an urgent warning ahead of the 2026 midterms: foreign funding is deeply embedded in America’s nonprofit and advocacy infrastructure, affecting policy, protests, and aspects of election administration. The APT’s database aims to arm citizens and journalists with transparency, while new statutory fixes—crafted to protect First Amendment rights—are needed to stem the flow of foreign money influencing American elections. Both host and guest stress that real reform will require exposing the scope of the problem and broad political will—especially given that opposition often comes from those who benefit most.

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Transcript

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[B]

And we are back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, senior elections correspondent at the Federalist, and as always, your experience sherpa on today's quest for knowledge. And as always, you can email the show at radiothefederalist.com follow us on x@fdrlst. Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast and of course, to the premium version of our website as well. Our guest today is Caitlin Sutherland, executive director of Americans for Public Trust, a nonprofit nonpartisan organization dedicated to restoring trust in government by holding politicians and political groups accountable. Today we discuss foreign money in the US Political system. APT has a new database that tracks more than $5 billion in foreign spending, bankrolling politically active nonprofits in the U.S. congressional. Excuse me, in the the U.S. this is. It is a massive issue. It is a massive problem, and it is massively involved at a number of levels in our elections. Caitlin, thank you so much for joining us on this edition of the Federalist Radio Hour.

[A]

Well, thank you so much for having me.

[B]

Well, absolutely. You know, this is podcast land. So like many of my colleagues in this business, we do a lot of record in home studios. And that is not always a perfect situation. Sometimes we have interruptions and Caitlin just, just was witness, if you will, at least on the audio side of things, witness to the bedlam that are my dogs coming in after rolling around in something disgusting in the yard. And then my daughter's trying to round them up for a bath. So isn't that exciting? Podcast time, huh?

[A]

Yes, I think everyone out there can really, really understand if anyone has a dog. You've been there, so no, no one should be bothered by it.

[B]

While we were discussing it, I, I told you, we're one dog shy of an Iditarod team here. My daughter is a, has a huge heart for foster dogs. We fostered many of them and we had a failed foster. And so we have, we have three dogs. And you were telling me as, as we were just about to, to record this episode, that you have a dog who is in conflict with himself.

[A]

Yes, that's absolutely right. As I mentioned, he's also a little rescue dog. He's half hound and half lab. And every day is an inner battle for is the good boy lab going to take over or is the naughty hound who cannot abandon a fence going to take over? He's very SW Sweet, but he has a very good nose. So every day is a struggle for that little pup. But he brings us so much joy, even through the naughtiness that sometimes dogs get themselves into.

[B]

You know, it's interesting because I, I can't tell you how many times I've heard that, that same thing said about Mitch McConnell. He's a naughty boy, but he brings us so much. No, I haven't heard that part. Anyway, speaking of things, horrible things that things roll around in politics and particularly big money in politics, quite a segue into that. But yes, a lot of the stuff stinks. Let us get a better understanding, if you will, of this new initiative and this new database, which I think will be remarkable in showing people in, you know, in real time in so many cases, where this money is going, where it is coming from.

[A]

Absolutely. So we at Americans for Public Trust just launched a new initiative. Everyone can check it out@follow foreignmoney.org and it is a database that is going to allow your viewers, voters, journalists, the general public to search what politically active nonprofits in the United States are being bankrolled by foreign money. And so far we have cataloged that over $5 billion in foreign money from many, many different foreign countries are funding US Based nonprofits to implement an extremist agenda. It's wrong. It must be stopped. And I so appreciate taking the time to talk about this, especially ahead of the 2026 midterms.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, $5 billion. First of all, that's amazing. We're going to try to get our minds around that coming up. But you're absolutely in the thick of things. As, as you and I speak, the state of Wisconsin and I believe five other states are holding primary elections in the state of Wisconsin, maybe perhaps the most nationally Watched gubernatorial race. You have an avowed socialist, really a communist, who is the the pick, it appears, for Democrats to be their candidate for governor. Lot of money in that race. And a lot of money has come in, obviously from big money initiatives, organizations that support socialism and want to see that way of governance in America. Have you been able to track any of the money that has been, if you will, use to at least get out the message for these policies, these ideas and these politicians?

[A]

Yeah. Now that what you just brought up about money being spent to get out the vote is really the crux of what is going on here with these various foreign influence loopholes. So let me just take a step back because folks who are listening might think, hey, I thought foreign money in our elections is illegal.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And they're absolutely right. Foreign money in elections has long been illegal. It's been federal law for decades now. What does that mean? That means that foreign money can't go to candidates like a gubernatorial candidate. It can't go to a party committee, the rnc, dnc, and it can't go to a super pac. Okay, but for anyone that lives and breathes elections like you do, you realize very, very quickly that that ban on foreign money actually doesn't get you that far. Particularly in the modern campaign machine, there's so much more than candidates, committees and super PACs. It's the outside groups that you mentioned. It's the group that are registering voters, maybe conducting Go TV initiatives, maybe it's the ones bankrolling state ballot initiatives. There are a whole host of other electoral tools that are free game to be financed by foreign money because they're not technically elections. Hence these various foreign influence loopholes on our books where we have found and is demonstrated through follow foreignmoney.org that over $5 billion is flowing into these important policies, fights and these electoral tools. And it is absolutely impacting the outcomes of certain elections. You can't experience an election cycle and think, hey, you know what wasn't important? Voter Reg. But here we have that foreign money can be used to fund voter registration drives and GOTV campaigns, issue advocacy television ads, those voter education campaigns, you can finance those with foreign money. And so what we have is that foreign money is corrupting our political system and more reforms need to be placed on the state and federal level to prohibit this foreign money flowing into other areas outside the candidate themselves.

[B]

Well, I think about all of that and I think about the hundreds of millions of dollars dropped into our elections in 2020 by private groups. The Zuck buck scandal immediately comes to mind. Of course, speaking of Wisconsin, that was one of the, the major places, the center of the zuck buck scandal, where we saw, you know, cash from these private entities going into the administration of our elections. And yes, they did have an agenda. And yes, it was a left leaning agenda. And yes, they were very much engaged in get out the vote campaigns and initiatives in traditionally left, leftist or left leaning areas to try to get those voters to the polls in 2020. That's something in and of itself. But how much foreign money came out of that 2020 election that has grown into this $5 billion mountain of cash that we're seeing today?

[A]

Well, we know that millions in foreign money went into groups in 2020. And if folks go on to our followforeignmoney.org database, they can search by group and by year to deter who are receiving foreign money. So take for instance the ACLU foundation and the ACLU Network. They are a very, very active group that is registering voters and also funneling money into state ballot initiative campaigns. Individuals. If they have a question about a group or a state or an activity or a year, they can go to follow foreign money and they can use the searchable database to type in the group American Civil Liberties Union, and you can see across the board how much foreign money they received over the course of a year. So the database spans back all the way in some instances to 2002 and goes forward to 2026. So we can get a lot of historical data from it because I think a lot of people have questions and they want to know how much foreign money was influencing certain either policy fights or certain elections. And so we really hope that this can be a comprehensive datab that can, that people can use moving forward and also just grow in the education surrounding this issue. Because as you mentioned, election administration, that is so important. But you can use foreign money to finance elect election administration. There is no state or federal prohibition on that. Yeah, that is a huge problem. That is a red flag for election integrity. So there are too many foreign influence loopholes on the, on the books and it's at least a $5 billion problem. And certainly this database is not comprehensive. And there's actually a way that individuals can report known sources of foreign funding. So we hope that people listening to this and are using the follow foreignmoney.org database can also report known sources of foreign money flowing into nonprofits and flowing into your states and we can update it, particularly as we move midterms.

[B]

That's, that's great. I love that fact because let's face it, citizens, just average citizens who have just gotten so sick of this, have really been instrumental in the fight to expose this stuff and then hopefully to have the political will to do something about it. But I think about the Election Integrity Network that the Federalist is in, all the good, hardworking people that do this stuff every day, I know that they would very much welcome the opportunity to not only use the services, but to provide information, because they track this stuff all the time and they, they do it very well. You raised a couple of great points. I'm going to start with the aclu, which is, is nothing more than a front group for leftist policies. And that's their ultimate gain. It's, it's clear in what they've done. They've. They've come a long way from where they began as the American civil liberties in terms of their political involvement. I'm curious, and this would be something to look at as I stroll around the database, but how much foreign cash from countries that don't value civil liberties is coming in to the aclu?

[A]

Well, they get a lot of money from Switzerland. So I could probably make a lot of jokes about maybe it's not so great if you don't, don't pick a side. But what we have is that it doesn't matter the group, and it doesn't matter what country it's coming from. We have tracked a lot from the United Kingdom, a lot from Switzerland, Denmark. The fact is that it can happen. There is nothing stopping a country that is a foreign adversary from taking advantage of the same loophole. And while they're not necessarily in our database, we know that it is happening. We need to make sure that our policy priorities and our elections are for Americans only. And you're right. I mean, it is just flies in the face of hypocrisy when you realize what these groups are promoting on US soil. But they are doing it with foreign dollars.

[B]

Yeah, they sure are. And I think about it where you're tracking this, you know, Switzerland. And yes, it may not want to get involved in the world's conflicts, but it certainly has funded the world's conflicts and all kinds of different issues. And that's what I'm curious about. You know, a lot of money comes from a lot of different entities, a lot of different foreign countries, many of them quite adversarial to the United States that passes through Switzerland and some of these other countries. And then the other part of that is the, what you mentioned, the countries you mentioned, you know, these are Socialist nations. And they have people who reside in those socialist nations who have a great deal of, of money that would like to influence elections in the United States of America, to change policies and to turn the United States of America into a more socialist country. So there's a lot on the line here. But are you tracking the kind of pass throughs that go on in this game as well?

[A]

Yeah, well, as you, as you mentioned that the socialist nature and the extremist nature of these foreign charities, foreign nationals and foreign governments is so alarming. Take for instance, there is a, for a little known foreign charity called the KR Foundation. They're based in Denmark and they're funding US based nonprofits. And this little innocuous sounding charity wants to envision a world where we have less cars, where we, where we eat less meat. So talk about something, wait a minute now.

[B]

Are we into the AOC insect bug eating thing? Is that the kind of group we're talking about?

[A]

I'm sure they would definitely be very supportive of the AOC initiatives. But what we have here is clearly a European mindset right where they want to envision a world with less cars. Obviously for many reasons, that's never going to work in America. But the money is flowing to implement an extremist agenda. Whether or not that is on climate initiatives, whether or not it's on other public health initiatives, immigration flowing into the aclu, it's really, really exposing all these foreign influence loopholes where we have these extreme foreign nationals and foreign charities with a thumb on the scale trying to influence public policy right here in the United. Um. And I think a lot of people can realize, particularly in a midterm, that there's always yard signs, there's always a television advertisement, there's always a protest. And I think people are wondering where is everybody getting the matching T shirts and the matching signs and this well orchestrated coordinated event? Well, a lot of the money, not all, but a lot of it traces back to these foreign networks. Take for instance, Indivisible. They are the group leading the nationwide no Kings protests. They're constantly going on in Washington D.C. i'm sure they're happening in Wisconsin. They have received, according to our database, $7.5 million via a Swiss billionaire named Hans Jorg Wies. Yes, why are we allowing foreign money to fund US protests? But it's legal and it's happening and we need to make sure we're stopping it.

[B]

Pennsylvania, the fifth largest state and the biggest swing state in the nation, is under attack by national progressive billionaires and Millionaires. Why? Because as Pennsylvania goes, so goes the nation. That's what Matt Briett explains in his new book, you Gotta Win Pennsylvania. A call to entrepreneurs to save America. Why entrepreneurs? Well, just look at America's history. Entrepreneurs founded this great nation. These were innovators banding together to launch an unprecedented experiment in liberty and self government. Now, 250 years later, this same entrepreneurial vision is what will save America. And in you gotta win Pennsylvania, Matt explains how Pennsylvania is ground zero in the fight for America. But he doesn't just give the problem, he gives the solution. And that's you. You can be part of what entrepreneurs in Pennsylvania are already doing to win Pennsylvania and to save America. Check out you gotta win pa.com to learn more and get a copy of this eye opening book on how the future of freedom and prosperity in America runs through Pennsylvania. That's you gotta win pa.com Amazing. Just amazing. And you're right, it is happening in Wisconsin. In fact, it's I think integral to the primary election that's going on. As we talked, the New York Post reporting Communist socialist network helped fuel Madison, Wisconsin protest after an officer involved shooting there. And for those who follow this national story, basically what happened was there was a suspect who was apparently rooting through vehicles according to police and had a long criminal history, tried to escape from the police. The police finally tracked him down. When they did, the guy stabbed the officer and his fellow officers tried to tase the man. It wouldn't work. And then the officer who was stabbed then shot the man and, and he died. The city just within hours became another one of those chop like you had in Seattle, one of those autonomous zones. Right. And you had leftists from all over the country coming in to do what we saw during the Black Lives Matter movement, the riots, the mostly peaceful but fiery protests that went on of course across the country. And that's what we're seeing. We're seeing funding, just as you mentioned, from organizations including funds that are coming

[A]

from

[B]

Swiss billionaires involved in this. It's a common theme. Let's talk a little bit about the billionaires there who's been involved in this from Switzerland and what his motives are. Because you track the money, but you also know the backgrounds and the motives involved.

[A]

That's absolutely right. So if anybody would like to learn more about the individual foreign nationals or foreign charities that are funding these policy fights right here in the United States, there are profiles available on follow foreignmoney.org because let me tell you, I mean the more we learn about them. We realize that they really do have an extremist activist agenda. Take, for instance, the Swiss billionaire Hans or Wies. He has funneled hundreds of millions of dollars through two of his nonprofits to implement a radical agenda here in the United States. And you just asked, you know, oh, you know, what's his end game? Like, what does he want to get out of this? We actually know through a autobiography that it is his goal to, quote, reinterpret the American Constitution in the light of a progressive politics. So we know it is laid out. We don't have to second guess what their agenda is. We know what it is. And also we know that Mr. Wies has found a way to, in his own words, quote, exert an influence on American domestic politics through his foundations. And that is the crux of the issue here, that a Swiss billionaire has found a way to exert an influence on American domestic politics through his foundations. And why is that? It's because of these various foreign influence loopholes we discussed that allow foreign money to come into one nonprofit and out the other side for all these different initiatives. And so long as you are staying away from a candidate or super package, you can allow foreign money to infiltrate all these policy fights and priorities here in the United States. And so Hans or Wies is a really great example of what happens when this foreign money can come into the United States. It's dangerous, it's bad for our democracy, and it really gives you a tainted view of the political process. And who is funding these policy funds?

[B]

Well, It's George Soros 2.0. It's George Soros on steroids, really. And because it's not coming from a US billionaire, although obviously Soros and his gang have deep ties to socialist Europe. But now you, you have the money pouring in from socialist billionaires with a. An agenda that should be clear to anybody. And here's a reminder once again. If a candidate tells you they want to abolish the police and federal immigration enforcement, take them at their word. The money that's coming to fund them, at least in the periphery, is coming from these foreign nationals, these foreign organizations. And it is alarming, to say the very least. Our guest today is Caitlin Sutherland. She's executive director of Americans for Public Trust, a nonprofit, nonpartisan organization dedicated to restoring trust in government by holding politicians and political groups accountable. And I do believe that that begins with Follow Foreign money dot org. That's the database that APT now has available. You can find it there. And it's a searchable database. You can Track all of this stuff where the money has come from over. Over time. Who are you mentioned? Mr. Switzerland himself. Big player, obviously. Who are some of the other big players that you profile the money, where they're coming from. That may astound folks who don't follow this stuff so closely.

[A]

Yeah, that is a great question. Because even though folks may not follow it or be aware of all these foreign influence loopholes, they're being impacted by it. Take for instance a little known British Bailey billionaire by the name of Christopher Hone. Oh yes, he runs a group called the Children's Investment Fund Foundation.

[B]

Now that sounds innocuous. That sounds nice and noble, doesn't it?

[A]

It does. And to be honest, it really flew under the radar for quite some time. If you go to the Children's Investment Fund website, you will see plenty of pictures of orphans. You will see them trying to portray an image of noble deeds across the country. But when we at Americ Americans Republic Trust dug into their annual reports, we realized that this group has pushed over 650 million in foreign money to US based groups that are funding climate litigation. They're pushing a pro at ESG agenda and they're working with communist China. So because we previously exposed the Children's Investment Fund foundation and Christopher Hone for bankrolling these various initiatives across the United States, just a few months ago he actually announced, you know what? I'm no longer going to bankroll causes in the United States, which is such a victory to take hundreds of millions of dollars of foreign money that he would have invested in the future off the table. And that is why awareness to this issue really can make progress to stop the flow of foreign state. Lawmakers and Congress are certainly trying to take action, but in the absence of that, you know, I really appreciate all the awareness on this to learn more about these billionaires because they do not want to be known. They like to hide behind the shadows. It is all designed a certain way. They want to quietly fund US causes, but through this database we're exposing it. And individuals can be empowered to determine which groups that are operating in their states are the recipient of probably millions in foreign money.

[B]

Do you find it interesting? Ironic even? Certainly it is curious to me that the left, which for so long had worked the narrative of dark money in politics, and of course they're still using that term firm. They are still employing that message to try to get at, you know, an extremely important U.S. supreme Court decision that goes back several years now, Citizens United. What Citizens United did is it said, hey listen, the First Amendment has to be considered here and you can't stop US citizens from their political speech. It didn't say anything about that ban that has been in place for the better part of the 40 years now on foreign money. But as you note, you can certainly get around and funds are fungible and all of that. But isn't it interesting that the left is still using the term dark money when they are so very good at the dark money game?

[A]

Oh, the hypocrisy on the left when it comes to outside spending is astounding. First the left is decrying dark money, but then they're using dark money and they spend hundreds of millions in dark money trying to get Kamala Harris elected. They're the party that's benefiting from dark money despite decrying it. And now we have the left benefiting not just from dark money, but from foreign dark money. And here we have the left's number one attorney, Mark Elias, who was screaming Russia collusion a couple years ago, is Swiss billionaire Hans or Wiese's personal attorney. So the hypocrisy is just stunning on many, many different levels. And as I mentioned, we are also working on the state and federal level to pass ban, you know, this various foreign funding. And the area that we've been the most successful in is passing bans on using foreign funds and state ballot initiative campaigns. And Ohio passed a Ban, who's one of 11. And so did Kansas. And guess who was there on day one to sue the state saying no, no foreign money should be allowed to fund ballot initiative campaigns.

[B]

Oh, I know the answer. I know the answer to this question. My hand is way up in the yes.

[A]

So of course it was Mark Elias. Mark Elias actually and his attorneys went into Ohio and then went into Kansas and said, no, no foreign money should be allowed to fund ballot issue campaigns in these states and in Ohio. And then an Obama appointed judge in Kansas hit Mark Elias's hand and said, no, Mark, you're wrong again. This is completely okay for a state to ban for foreign money. There's nothing more important than these ballot initiative campaigns which are often changing the state's constitution. So once again, Mark Elias lost and it was a great victory for all. And Mark Elias loses. That's also a win for, you know, the first amendment of Americans because anytime you allow a foreign national to speak, that dilutes the voice of an American citizen.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Why it is so important to make sure that we're free of foreign money. And the database shows how overwhelming the foreign dark money is benefiting the left, it's like I said, for these extreme climate causes and other very leftist organizations like the Sierra Club, the ACLU Foundation, League of Conservation Voters. They all have an agenda. We know who they want to win in November and they're benefiting from foreign money. And it's not going to stop until we change our laws.

[B]

Yeah, no doubt about that. Now I'm curious. Did Elias approach the Obama judge in Kansas and say, well now hold on a minute, Judge, I have this dossier here that I think you're going to be interested in. It contains a lot of important information and don't take my word for it. CNN and the New York Times will back me up on this. I kid of course, because we don't laugh, we cry in this business because it is just, it's astounding. And before we get to the fixes and you've touched upon that and there needs to be a lot of fixing going on in this. But you mentioned foreign money in election administration. That should be be very frightening to anyone. What sort of numbers are you tracking on that front?

[A]

So in that area it is a little bit more difficult to track. But again, it shows that foreign money can be used. It can go into groups like the New Venture Fund that does engage in election administration. As you mentioned, money is fungible. So we have to make sure that we pass laws that say no foreign money in ballot initiatives, no foreign money in gotv, no foreign money in ballot harvesting, no foreign money in election administration. And there is legislation both in the House and the Senate that would do just that. It's led by Senator Hagerty and then representative style in the House.

[B]

Yep. That does not surprise me. They have both been very much committed to election integrity and election integrity reforms. In fact, I just spoke recently with Congressman Stile, the Wisconsin Congressman who is chairman of the House Administration Committee. They are the point committee for election law, election reform, all of that. And he has been very instrumental, that committee has been very instrumental in investigating foreign money that is coming into the massive Democratic Party platform, the fundraiser in ACT Blue. How much of this kind of crosses over from what you're tracking in the whole ActBlue scandal?

[A]

Yeah, well, first, Congressman Style definitely has been a leader on closing all these foreign influence loopholes. And we really appreciate all of his work chairing the House Administration Committee. And what's interesting is the issue with ActBlue and the issue with their database. So foreign money that might be flowing through ActBlue is already illegal. ActBlue is the payment processor for candidates, committees, and in some instances super PACs. So the great news is that if foreign money is flowing through that server, it's already illegal. You're already breaking the law that allows what Chairman Style is doing and allows for individuals to be prosecuted for breaking the law. If foreign money is coming into candidates, committees and super PACs, that's already illegal. But what we have here is foreign money flowing into nonprofits. It's always that nonprofit ecosystem that's engaging in the election administration, the ballot issues, lobbying, the climate litigation. That is a different problem because foreign money is legal in those areas. So while it is a problem of foreign, general foreign influence, the way that we solve it is going to be tackled a different way. Way.

[B]

Yeah, it is. It's, it's such a, just a daunting problem. So first and foremost, the transparency angle is so critical. That's why what you are doing and letting the American people have a view into this dark money world, truly dark money world. But how do you, how do you go about fixing this? You alluded to it, but what sort of laws need to be in place? Because here's the question that I think understandably comes up. We have a First Amendment, foreign countries, a lot of them involved in this, that they certainly don't have a First Amendment. And many of them, where this money is coming from, they don't have speech rights really at all. And so a lot of times our freedom, as wonderful as they are, and you know, we are, we are blessed because of them and we are blessed because of this Constitution. They also do open up the door for nefarious actors. How do you bridge that gap that goes on between constitutional rights and making sure that foreign money isn't influencing and disrupting our elections.

[A]

Absolutely. The number one thing that we want to make sure that when we are pursuing reforms on the state and federal level, that nothing is going to impact your First Amendment rights and nothing is going to compel a nonprofit to disclose their donors. But in the absence of that, there is much that we can do. Take for instance, the work that we've done alongside our partners at Honest Elections Project is to ban foreign money and ballot issue campaigns. That was a very narrowly tailored law that found and was upheld in Ohio and Kansas, as I said, that said, hey, yeah, take foreign money out of it. You can't use foreign money in candidates. You shouldn't be able to use it in ballot initiatives either. It's a pretty simple loophole to close because guess what? Foreign nationals, they can't vote. They can't serve on juries and they can't give to candidates and they can't give to super PACs. Well, gee, why are they being allowed to fund any of these other things? So when you focus on eliminating the foreign money and really, really make it narrowly tailored, you are not going to abridge the First Amendment right to speak of Americans, particularly in an election year. We have also seen success come out of the House Ways and Means Committee where you have a narrowly tailored approach that would prompt a little bit more disclosure of the foreign money flowing into nonprofits. Again, we are not going to tackle domestic money. We do not want to make it more difficult for a nonprofit or an American to speak. But we must find solutions to make sure that foreign money is being removed from the equation. It is definitely a delicate balance, but I am confident that our elected leaders on the state and federal level will get it right.

[B]

Well, let me ask you this again. I think I know the answer to the question. Unfortunately, it's the same answer I think that you would give if I asked you a similar question about the resistance to the Save America Act. Who's trying to stop this stuff. You mentioned already, Mark Elias. We know where his allegiances lie. But I am seeing Democrats increasingly concerned that there will be blocks on the money, foreign Money, coming into NGOs, these other organizations that are just basically fronts for the Democrat Party and for leftist initiatives.

[A]

Yeah, well, I think that the left has a huge problem with receiving and benefiting from foreign dark money. And you can tell that from our database. We took a look at about a dozen foreign entities and we have hundreds, if not thousands of groups receiving that foreign money. We could not find a single instance of a center right group benefiting from foreign money. Not that that doesn't exist, but it is not in our database. And we really think that is because the left is obviously benefiting from this foreign money. And what we have seen is that groups on the right, top 501 C4s on the right in some instances have an internal ban on accepting foreign money. American Action Network and one nation are two top C4s on the right that are instrumental in House and Senate campaigns. They have an internal ban on accepting foreign money. Who's one of the top 501 C4s on the left? Well, the 1630 fund. They've received over 300 million of foreign money via Swiss billionaire Hans Rubies. So when you wonder why progress isn't being made on this issue or why you have certain individuals pushing back back money talks and foreign money has a lot of influence and we see that the left is powered by this foreign dark money.

[B]

I think ultimately what we find here in our conversation today and the work that you folks are doing is we need to be doing and our members of Congress need to be doing what my daughters just did. They need to wash the dogs. They got to clean the stink off this thing because there is a whole lot of stink off foreign money money coming in and influencing our elections. And it begins all of this good work begins with transparency and that's what follow foreignmoney.org is attempting to do. Thanks to my guest today, Caitlin Sutherland, executive director of Americans for Public Trust, a non profit, nonpartisan organization dedicated to restoring trust in government by holding politicians and political groups accountable. And that's really the work here of tracking foreign money to be sure. We'll be back soon with more on the Federalist Radio Hour. Until then, stay lovers of freedom and anxious for the fray.