Dr. Christina Crenshaw (3:17)

Yeah, well, you know, I think just to kind of set up for your listeners, you know, the heart behind why I wrote this book. Like Most of us, 2020 was so eye. And I think, particularly if you are in church spaces, which I am, you know, I was at a Christian university, heavily involved in the church, and I started to realize, oh, wow, even within the church, we don't have the kind of language and the kind of impetus for doing social justice work that diff. That is in any way distinguishable from those who are doing it from a humanistic perspective, those who are doing it from secular reasons. And then as you mentioned, I started to notice too, we don't really have language around this politically. We don't have language around this spiritually. And so that began to trouble me, particularly because I would see as a college professor, my students, they were motivated by the wrong reasons, and the wrong reasons lead to the wrong outcomes. So I went on this journey, really. 2020, 2021. I was particularly rattled by 2021 when the Biden administration issued an executive order overturning title. Not too shocked by secular people doing secular things or atheist people doing atheist things, but the way that I saw fellow Christians cheer for something that was not biological, something that was not biblical, was disturbing to me. So that was really like the impetus behind this book. And as I started to study the difference between social justice from a humanist Marxist perspective and biblical justice from an Old Testament to New Testament framework for why we would engage social work, why we would do good in the world, and God's heart for the differences between the two. So different motivations and different outcomes. But as you noted, that the real distinguishing difference between social justice and biblical justice, that social justice is predicated on Marxist, humanist, progressive, relative ideology, and biblical justice is rooted in a biblical, biblical scriptural interpretation of what it means to do justice, to do mercy, to do good.

Matt Kittle (5:43)

It seems to me, yeah, it seems to me that social justice as it was applied during the Black Lives Matter movement and the LGBTQ movement, as you mentioned, the, the, the, the transgender area, all of those sorts of things, there is this eventual goal of power, that is political power. That's what it's all about. The difference to me seems pretty clear when you're talking about Christ centered biblical justice. But we have all of these, you know, secular visions of the world and what doing good is supposed to be about. I Think of a candidate. And I wanted to get your sense of this because in Texas you have this, you know, very intense Senate race going on. The primaries are coming up and I think you know where I'm going with this. But there is a candidate named James Talarico who has become, you know, the IT guy for the left social justice movement. And he, you know, he is apparently attempting to be a pastor. He's received a shout out from Barack Obama and charm. This is not my writing, by the way. I believe this is Mother Jones magazine

Dr. Christina Crenshaw (7:12)

and you know, tells you everything. Yes, right there.

Matt Kittle (7:15)

Exactly. They're fawning over this guy. He's charmed everyone from Ezra Klein to, you know, name the, the liberal Stephen Colbert, for instance. So he, he is really getting a lot of attention because he is saying, hey, you know, you don't have to practice your faith through the lens of what he likes to call, you know, nationalism or the road, Christian right, Christian nationalism, that sort of thing. Talk about that in, in relation to your book, if you don't mind, about how the left is now trying to capitalize on what is really fundamental to this country and that is the Christian faith.

Dr. Christina Crenshaw (8:05)

Right. Yeah. James Talarico is a, is a great example of where the left has co opted much of what is biblical and used it for their own agenda. And what bothers me most about the Christian nationalism accusation is the very, the very actions that the left accuses the right of doing. When they call something Christian nationalism, they do it as well. They just won't own the label. So for example, if I had a dollar for every time I heard the left say just love your neighbor and get vaccinated, just love your neighbor and wear a mask, just love your neighbor and open the borders. And the very idea of just love your neighbors again is predicated on the idea of Jesus telling us to love our neighbors, love our enemies. But the so first and forem most the left is using Christian language for their own power and agenda. And that is fundamentally at its core, what they're calling Christian nationalism. So when the right advocates to end abortion or to put severe restrictions on when abortion is allowed, we are called Christian nationalists. But when the left wants to evoke a biblical principle for their agenda, suddenly it's not Christian nationalism. So the hypocrisy is comical and dizzying. So just to, you know, address the Christian nationalism accusation, I wish both sides would just come to terms with we are doing our best to integrate our faith in the public square and it is tricky and it is hard and that we would just take the Christian nationalism accusation off the table because it's circular like critical theories often are, and it's not helpful or productive. I think that most people want to claim on the left when they say Christian nationalism is that the right wants a theocracy, but we don't. No one wants a theocracy. So I think that's what they think that they are claiming when they claim Christian nationalism. Because in reality, if it's faith integration, they're attempting to do it too, to actually address some of the, the holes in their argument, the flaws. I think it comes back to just having a robust apologetics around whatever issue is on the table and a hermeneutics. So, for example, James Talarico, I've heard him, he's very loose and, and far too generous on the idea of abortion. And so when you ask, as a Christian, can you ground that in Scripture, where are you getting this from? He pivots. You know, I haven't followed him closely, but when I see clips or when I see commentators speaking on him, you know, I know I'm not voting for him. So I haven't needed to follow him closely. And even the people you have suggested have endorsed him, Mother Jones, Obama. It just tells me everything that I need to know about the type of candidate he is. But when I've listened to his arguments, he doesn't actually build a biblical case. It really is rooted in more of a humanism, more of this idea of like, love your neighbor. But even that needs to be addressed when we. When. When Jesus says love your neighbor, he means tell them the truth, that the truth will set you free, that the truth leads to freed, that the truth leads to human flourishing. So the idea of love your neighbor by telling them and affirming whatever lie they believe, by placating to whatever culture says is in vogue that is holistically incompatible with what the Bible says, which has withstood 2000 years of church history. And so if, if you can't fit it into that narrative, then it probably doesn't biblically align.

Matt Kittle (11:49)

I agree. And I wanted to follow up on that.

Ryan Seacrest (11:50)

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Matt Kittle (12:19)

Why are, why do you think there are so many interpretations, justifications? And I think I know the answer to this. I've been thinking about this for over 50 years now. And it's, it's something that's occupied my thoughts for a long time. How do we have so many different interpretations of the truth? And you think about that in this world right now, where we're told, follow the science, right? That's supposed to be the truth. And then as you mentioned before, you have politicians and bureaucrats locking us down during the pandemic, which was extremely harmful in so many ways. And then you have people saying that no, there really aren't two sexes, there's a whole spectrum of genders. I mean, how do we get into all of this? Is it just because it's, it's easier to follow that humanist way? It, it justifies some wrong headed thinking that's been going on since, you know, man was came forward? I guess.

Dr. Christina Crenshaw (13:30)

Yeah, I mean the, the easy answer to those questions is yes and yes, but I think the, the harder question to answer and I, and I don't know that if you're, you know, if you're not in academia, you're not in thought leadership as we are. The average person may not realize that most of this postmodern relative thought is rooted in critical theories. And as you noted earlier, critical theories come out of a Marxist framework. So I would encourage your listeners if they're not familiar, and maybe they are, but most people I encounter, the average person is not but the Frankfurt School of Thought, which was popular in the 1920s. It was a group of academic thinkers out of Frankfurt, Germany who popularized the idea of again, critical theories. And when what are critical theories? It is undoing and unhinging truth from what has historically been said in a Judeo Christian worldview. Even our Enlightenment thinkers still use the Judeo Christian worldview as their touchstone for truth and for policies and for shaping our great nation. I mean, people would be hard pressed to argue against that. It's just so clear. But what the Frankfurt school thought looked to do was to append truth and to untether it from everything that we had ever known to be true, particularly if it was tethered to faith and to the Christian faith. And so what they look to do is to create ideologies based on the oppressed oppressor narrative that someone is inevitably the bad guy and somebody is the good Guy. And if you are the oppressor, then you need to be toppled. Then that sort of hegemony and that sort of power needed to be toppled. But what's different about the biblical worldview is it looks at all of us and it says, hey, it turns out you're all sinners. On any given day, you are either the oppressed or the oppressor, which is why you need Christ, because none of you is innocent. And as soon as you topple one power or one social hierarchy or structure, you've just created another. So you need a level playing field within Christ. That Christ is your ultimate touchstone for what is good, true and beautiful. So, yeah, I think to answer your question, sin. You know, I was on a podcast with my pastor the other day and he said, so let me kind of unpack this in pastoral language. He said, so we have injustice because of sin. My guess. He said, and God's answer to injustice is Christ. Yes. And God's method for ending injustice is his church. I'm like, well, yes, that is my book in a nutshell. You have nailed it. It's, it's. I love how pastors really do have the art of bringing it down to the lay level, but, yeah, but even, you know, bigger. To answer your question, I just don't think people realize how infiltrated the public square has become with critical theories and Marxist thought and Frankfurt School of Thought, which tells us that there isn't just truth, that your truth is your truth. And we placate to that idea that we can't really know what is true. And so it's up to the individual interpretation. We've become a hyper individualized society, unfortunately.

Matt Kittle (16:49)

Yes, I know. I've written recently about the Frankfurt School, the Frankfurt School of Critical theory, which of course the new generation is critical race theory, which we'll talk about here in just a moment as it's seen through the, the, the concept of social justice. But you know, there I did an investigation into, you know, a Christian private school, college prep school in Tennessee. And one of the concerns from the parents is that the, the school was not, or it was getting away from its, its foundational Christian values. And one of their arguments was that the administrator of that school had written a dissertation for his PhD many years before and it, it had what they considered to be all of these woke ideas. And you know, the school said, well that's, that's not the case, and these sorts of things. And I said, well, can I have a copy of the dissertation? And they said no. So I Had to, had to go get a copy of the dissertation from the school where, where he, you know, he, he was attended years before. And they, they gave it to me and it was, it was absolutely immersed in the Frankfurt school of thought, you know, this Marxist and now today the neo Marxist movement, all tied to that early 20th century movement. And I think there are a lot of parents who are very concerned about Christian schools across the country that are now really getting into critical theory. They might not call it that, but that is exactly what it is. Are you hearing the same complaints from, from parents of these private Christian schools?

Dr. Christina Crenshaw (18:45)

You know, I would say that I did from 2020 to maybe 2023. But as we mentioned earlier, I think we had a collective weakening. I mean there was just nowhere to hide. The lines were drawn in 2020 and 2021. And I think that there has been more of a reckoning. So what I'm hearing more of now are parents who are being awakened to their kids school curriculum and are taking action. So I would say that that was, yes, that that was definitely the case from, I mean my goodness, I probably started to notice this in like 2013 in the college classroom. I was teaching a social issues and education course and just realizing the curriculum even that I had been assigned because I was a doctoral student and I had some leeway. I would bring in, you know, like if they had Cornell west and Paulo Ferrari, then I would balance it with, you know, I'm like we're going to read some Timothy Keller. We're, you need some balanced thought here. But I started noticing it amongst my students and even within Christian higher education about 2013. But I also saw an awakening with parents in 2020, 2021, 2022. You know, we would see parents at school boards, parents fighting back, parents advocating for their daughters to have the locker room and sports teams, you know, to themselves. So I, so what I'm doing seeing more of in this particular moment, are parents really fighting for the boundary lines to, to be redrawn to where they should be? But yes, prior to 2023, I do think within Christian higher education particularly and within Christian K through 12, there were some concerning DEI initiatives. There was a lot, you know, even my kids school had to reevaluate where, where do we stand on gender and sexuality? I think they didn't feel like this was something they needed to speak up on before. But by 2022, 2023, you couldn't afford to remain silent. Parents were asking, yeah, absolutely.

Matt Kittle (20:58)

And that became, I think Covid really exposed. That certainly it did in the public school system where you had parents home with their kids because everybody was pretty much locked down and you watched as kids went through their lessons and or indoctrination and they saw it firsthand. What are you teaching my kid here? And I think that is a big part of where the, the reawakening and the, you know, the pushback absolutely came from. Our guest today is Dr. Christina Crenshaw, assistant professor at Arizona Christian University. She serves as a fellow at the university's Cultural Research center and is author of the fascinating new book Redeeming Justice, Reclaiming God's Vision for Doing Good in the World.

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Matt Kittle (22:54)

When did it become good to have high school girls shower with high school boys and men? I, I think that was a tipping point in this journey as well, was it not?

Dr. Christina Crenshaw (23:08)

Well, it certainly was for me. I have sons, I don't have daughters, but I am a female. And prior to really stepping into this sort of advocacy work, I my research agenda at a university was on anti human trafficking efforts, on prevention, education. And so I've known for over 10 years the data on sexual assault against females and where that occurs and sexual abuse and human trafficking mean largely human trafficking affects women and girls or particularly sex trafficking anyway. So for me it was a huge injustice. I was very indignant on behalf of women when the Biden administration issued that the executive order that reversed Title 9 that essentially allowed males who identify as females to enter what were once, from 1972 until this moment, protected spaces for females. And I think you're right. I think a lot of parents said, okay, this is the straw that has, this has broken the camel's back. You know, we, we've stayed silent through the masks and the mandates and the vaccines and, you know, maybe even some of the DEI initiatives. But when it comes to protecting our daughters, who are far more vulnerable than the males seeking their spaces, we have to speak up on this. And I did see a collective rising in, in parents on or with parents on that issue. Yeah. And I think from there it just snowballed. You know, once you begin to ask questions and you're asking, you know, the, the power to make it make sense, so to speak, and they can't, that's when I think parents found their voice. And I know that certainly when my eyes were opened, you know, I, I think I had the opportunity to see the water that was churning below us and coming to a boiling point because I'm in higher education. But once the public square, you know, caught wind of what was occurring and sort of these critical theories that were becoming policy, I think parents rightly were upset. And yes, so that's just probably one example is the reversing of Title 9. And of course we're seeing, you know, SCOTUS still is having trouble defining a woman, unfortunately.

Matt Kittle (25:39)

So a couple of members are at

Dr. Christina Crenshaw (25:41)

least not, maybe not all of them, but thankfully. Yeah. So I do think that the collective pressure is pushing back on these false, harmful narratives, and I'm thankful for that. But yeah, it's definitely, as I talk to different colleagues who are like minded and conservative and concerned about where we're going as a country that, you know, they say don't take too, too deep of a breath or too deep of a sigh, that it's really just about who is, you know, the administration, that if we, you know, have a Democratic administration, that the Overton window will swing right back. So I, I hope that's not the case. I hope that we have shifted the Overton window enough. But I do see that there is still work to be done. Absolutely.

Matt Kittle (26:37)

But you paid the price for this, and so have so many others for arguing reason for taking the reasonable stance. As a professor, you advocated for separate protected spaces for biological women. You face the wrath from parts of the LGBTQ+ community labeled transphobic. And, and that's the thing that's, that's really still in play today. That, that is the, the card that the, the secular vision of social justice, what they play all the time. If you say, listen, I don't think discrimination to make up for past discrimination is a good idea. Well, you're, you're a racist then, because you're not an anti racist, as they say. Describe it. If you say, no, I believe there are. There's a man and there's a woman. It's. It is a binary thing. It's not a fluid thing. There's mental illness as well. That's something you're, you know, you're transphobic. And a lot of people who have strong Christian faith, values, foundations, a lot of them, over a short period of time, they kind of just, you know, disappeared and into the. The public discourse because they did. They were so afraid of being labeled these horrible terms, and they weren't. How did you get through that personally?

Dr. Christina Crenshaw (28:12)

Yeah. Well, let me tell your listeners a little bit about the backstory, just so they can have some context for that, because being five years removed, it is more comical. It was actually very painful when it happened. But Beauty From Ashes, I think this, this, you know, again, was the catalyst for the book. I was teaching at, you know, one of the nation's largest Christian universities, and it states that it's unapologetically Christian and evangelical, and that's really why I was teaching there. I, you know, there's a lot of different universities within Texas, and I went to Texas A and M for undergrad, but I wanted to be at a distinctly Christian university. I have a friend, Dan Darling, who wrote a tweet in 2021 January, when Biden issued the executive order overturning Title 9 and allowing males to identify as females and then essentially erasing or at the very least blurring the lines between male and female sanctioned spaces. He writes this tweet that says, this is concerning. We need people to speak up. I reply, and I say, yes. As a female, I am concerned. What if females don't want to share bathrooms and sports with males? Do we not have a voice? No. And about a week later, I woke up to the student newspaper issuing a. They wrote a whole op ed and it said, Dr. Crenshaw is transphobic and needs to be fired. And then a witch hunt ensued where not the majority of campus, but a small faction of campus, started a petition to get me fired, tried to get me canceled from the university. And it got so vicious that finally the administration, the provost office, had to issue a free speech statement on my behalf, but really on behalf of all faculty. It's sort of shocking to me that the university didn't have one in place to begin with, but it took, I'm assuming legal counsel behind this scenes. It took a lot of people who were on my side, parents and fellow colleagues, just, you know, the pushback that they received against the students to finally get A free speech statement in place. But because of that moment, yes, I was on Fox and Friends. I was on Ali, Buff, Stucky. I was the subject of a lot of different Christian, Christian magazines. And I realized very quickly, because, you know, I was wondering, like, what is this, this pr. What is this media? I didn't ask for this. To me, this is so logical. This is so simple. How are we confused on this? I realized culture was so confused, and not just culture, but the church. And that deeply concerned me because again, I expect the world to be crazy and chaotic and to lack clarity. I didn't think that that's where the church was on this. And so I wrote this book. It really is a voice, voice into the church, reminding, like, hey, I know that your heart is in the right place, but not everything that you do in the name of compassion is actually really compassionate. For example, when you think that you are being compassionate by affirming a lie that a male can be a female and that we're going to call them trans women and that women need to just get on board with this and let them in, that is actually deeply incompassionate and a deep, deep injustice to females, you know, so that you, you realize how circular and how illogical that is, that that's not actually justice and that's not actually compassion. And that's what happens with a lot of these critical theories. When you ask people make this make sense. They can't, because they're illogical, they're unfounded, they're not grounded in anything true, they're not grounded in biblical truth, and they're not even grounded in biological truth or as we talked about earlier, scientific truth. You know, for example, if you had data proving that this vaccine was actually stopping. Covid, let's hear it. But until then, could we have a conversation about where there is no science on this? And you know, and so I think that's when people are unwilling to have the conversation that you realize, okay, you actually don't have a solid argument here. You're just being a social justice advocate, but you don't even really know what you're advocating for.

Matt Kittle (32:33)

Was it the Chip and Joanna Gaines faction at Baylor that that caused you all the trouble? I mean, I'm curious what you think about all that, because having taught at Baylor. Right, right in that backyard, and Baylor, the university is so tied to the identity, if you will, of, Of. Of Chip and Joanna Gaines. And, you know, they have taken, it seems to me, their faith and tried to put it through a secular lens. How do you feel about all of that?

Dr. Christina Crenshaw (33:08)

Yeah, you know, that's a tough one. And because as you, as you noted, I mean, yes, the, the relationship between really all of Waco, Texas, and Magnolia and Baylor, it's so very intertwined. I mean, even from my front door, I can see six neighbors, houses that work for Magnolia, just to give you an idea of how intertwined it is. And so I think we can't just, you know, sort of like, whittle it down to one perspective or one couple because it is so multifaceted. And, you know, same with Baylor University. You know, If I had 10% of the university who is loud and, and, and vicious in their, in their pushback, 90% supported me. It's the 10% that's concerning. And similarly with Magnolia, you know, for every one person you could find that is progressive or, you know, ascribing to woke ideologies, there are nine people who are like, this is ridiculous. It's just that 10% that is so loud. And that's the group that I was speaking to. That's the group where I say, you know, where my heart is to say, you. You cannot theologically explain what you believe. And, you know, the thing with, with Chip and Joanna, they, you know, they used to go to my church. And so I think that even this is a fascinating case study in 2016, 2017. I mean, this is public information, so I'm not sharing insider intel. Our church was dragged through the Rinker for being too conservative, for having a stance that was, you know, considered, you know, archaic and, and not with the times, because it was a biblical perspective on gender and marriage. And Chip and Joanna received backlash from progressives for going to our church, which is clearly in line with doctrine. And then you fast forward to, you know, 10 years later, and they have sort of changed their stance. Our church hasn't changed. And our church fell under scrutiny. Again, we didn't change. I think that people are changing with culture, which tells me they're not rooted in truth. And, And I'm not singling out any couple. I mean, in general, the church, if you can believe one thing in 2016, but you've shifted in 2026. But you don't have a theological framework. You can't explain your hermeneutics. You don't have an apologetics. Then you simply listen to culture. Culture is always shifting. But the biblical narrative, again, that's 2,000 years old. We've been very clear on this from the beginning. So it's not the Bible. That's the problem. It's people listening to culture that's the problem.

Ryan Seacrest (35:53)

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Matt Kittle (36:24)

I can tell you as a guy who has been nauseated by the culture, the culture is always the problem. Just take a look at modern music. But that' a that's a show, a different show of it of its own. I think this really gets to the heart of what we've been talking about in your book and it's a quote from Abraham Lincoln. He is said to have said this at one point and I can I certainly see him or imagine him saying that given his second inaugural and I'll read both for you and wanted to get your take on it. He was asked about God being on the side of the Union, and he said this My concern is not whether God is on our side. My greatest concern is to be on God's side. For God is always right. And that ties into one of his most, if not most famous lines from the beautiful second inaugural where he said as the the war was quickly coming to an end. With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow and his orphan to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations. I think that directly sums up that perspective of a man who struggled through his life to figure out what God was trying to tell him, what God wanted him to do. And I think he he fully understood that. At the end of the day, it's not how I feel. It's about what God is. And as Abraham Lincoln said, God is always right. I think there are all kinds of people struggling with that and I think what we're talking about is part of that. You know, the whole notion of love is love, love your neighbor. You mentioned it before, you know, very core principles. And so they are this secular view of okay well, that expands to everything, even if the truth doesn't apply to it.

Dr. Christina Crenshaw (38:59)

Yeah. You know, those are great quotes from. From Lincoln. I wish I had included them in my book. I'll have to start integrating them into my conversations. Because you're right. I mean, that's what it fundamentally comes down to. You know, I have said to people before really res. Which resonates with these quotes. I'm not interested in being on the right side of culture or even, as the slogan is, the right side of history. I'm interested in being on the right side of scripture, because scripture withstands time. There's truth to this. And so, you know, scripture has the ability to right the wrongs of history as we saw with slavery. And that is something I address in the book. You know, I. I paint a beautiful picture of the good that the church has done in the world. You know, I go back to the beginning with ending infanticide, with Catholic hospitals, Catholic universities, with the ways that we have been forerunners in adoption care as Christians. So, you know, the list goes on and on. But I do take a moment to grieve and lament the role that Christians played in slavery because we were. Were culpable. But then I remind people that Christians are also attributed to ending slavery. We can look to William Wilbur Force, we can look to Frederick Douglass. We can look at all of these people who actually said. Or Abraham Lincoln, because I love the Lord, because I believe his words are true, because I believe in the imago day that every person possesses. We're going to fight to end this injustice. So, you know, has the. The church always gotten it right? Absolutely not. But when you compare it to all other ideologies, all other demographics, we have gotten it more right than any other group throughout history. And it's not because we're just such a great group of people. It's because we've got Christ in us again. It's the imago day. It's the Holy Spirit working in us. So, yeah, I love those quotes by Abraham Lincoln because you're right, you know, we should look at an injustice and grieve and say, well, what is God's heart for this? That's what I want to advocate for. And so I think specifically to give your listeners some tangibles. When you're confronted with a lie, like, well, just love your neighbor. You just have to be ready to say, but how can I love my neighbor with a lie? Right. Like, it's not loving to lie and to affirm a false identity. Compassion would lead me to say, okay, you have gender dysphoria, you have gender confusion. And we need to get you help. And let's be as compassionate as possible in that journey. But in the meantime, while you're seeking help, no, you cannot come into my space or compassion says, I know that you have an unwanted pregnancy. I know that that's hard. I know that you're in a position where you cannot raise them, this child. But let's find you a family that can, let's get you support. Let's find a crisis pregnancy center that can walk you through this because there are other options. So that's what a Judeo Christian worldview looks like. It looks like finding truth in scripture and with compassion, you walk a person through a solution that would honor God, not that honors their, their feelings or their vibes. That's a, you know, word Gen Z likes to use. You know, it looks at really looking at what honors God ultimately, not what honors the individual because we're always changing and we cannot be trusted. The heart is deceitful. So we've got to have a touchstone that is more solid than our ever shifting heart.

Matt Kittle (42:39)

And that raises, I guess, a final point for me in all of this. Do you think that the idea of loving, loving your neighbor as yourself, which is a, you know, a principle, principle idea foundational to Christianity, but so many people loathe themselves in this world and so do they take that loathing, that self loathing and apply that to their worldview?

Dr. Christina Crenshaw (43:18)

I mean, yes, the short answer to that is yes, I had not thought of before. But you're right. Maybe some of the reason we have such a difficult time defining what it looks like to love others is because we don't really know how to love ourselves. Well, that we're looking for that and like the next dopamine hit and we're looking for that and you know, in the, in the next, next temporal fix instead of what is eternal, you know that we, we've lost sight of the, the telos, the, the eternal, the way that we are just here and passing and this is not our home. And so when we've lost sight of tethering ourselves to what's eternal, how do we love ourselves? Well, I think you raise a really interesting point that I don't know that many people are reflective on that. We don't know how to love other people as well because we don't really love ourselves with an eternal love. We're loving ourselves with this temporal, fleeting sort of false love which, you know, C.S. lewis has a lot to say about that, you know, CS Lewis to your listeners. Yeah, so I think that you raise a really interesting point there. I think too. And Carl Truman has written extensively on how we are just so hyper individualized that we think that love is all about me, me, me, me, me, and what makes Mimi happy. And so combating that narrative, you know, with, you know what, it's not really just about what makes you happy. There are other people to consider here. And if your happiness is an imposition on my well being, then we cannot allow that to be what triumphs in this situation. So, you know, specifically with, with the idea of abortion, even though you may have convinced yourself that ending the life of a baby will bring you happiness, that is a huge injustice to the baby in the womb. We've got to find a different solution. Even though you think it will make you happy to go through gender surgeries or to occupy a space that doesn't biologically belong to you. I'm so sorry. That causes harm to another. We've got to find another solution. So one of the things I do talk about in the book is we've got to find common ground through common good, you know, work and. Because not everybody is going to share our Christian ideology, but where we can at least gather that common ground is if your idea of. Of good is a harm to the majority's idea of good, then it cannot be good. You know, the most people can gather around that notion, even if they're not Christians.

Matt Kittle (46:01)

Indeed. And the great leveler, the great equalizer is what you note constantly in your book we've talked about throughout our conversation. And that is we are all sinners. We all fall short of Christ and we always will. And that's why we need Christ. That's why we need the Lord in our lives. That emptiness that we're feeling, and we all do at different times in our lives, that's the emptiness when we, when we forget about our connection to our Heavenly Father. That's just how I view things. Not everybody does. I understand. And as we said that, you know that that tear is what's part of what is going on in American life today. But I think your book does well to, to answer some of those big questions.

Dr. Christina Crenshaw (46:58)

No, thank you. It was a labor of love to write it. I mean, as writing always can be. But my heart behind it was to speak to a confused church and to bring some clarity on bringing them back to what is true. What is, is beautiful. Not because society has said it or the classics have said it, but because God has said it. And that's what makes it good, true and beautiful. And that's why it withstands time.

Matt Kittle (47:30)

Thanks to My guest today, Dr. Christina Crenshaw, Assistant professor at Arizona Christian University and fellow of the University's Cultural Research Center. She is also author of the fascinating new book Redeeming Justice Reclaiming God's Vision for Doing Good in the World. You've been listening to another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, senior elections correspondent at the Federalist. We'll be back with more soon. Until then, stay lovers of freedom and anxious for the fray. Foreign.

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