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Federalist Radio Hour
‘The Kylee Cast’ feat. Beverly Willett, Ep. 43: Do People Have A Right To Get Divorced?
00:54:43
On this episode of “The Kylee Cast,” Beverly Willett, a retired NYC lawyer, author, and marriage advocate, joins Federalist Managing Editor Kylee Griswold to talk about the nasty legal underbelly of no-fault divorce and how laws in every state punish...
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- [00:03]
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- [00:45]
Beverly Willett
Not only did I not want a divorce, not only did my vows mean something to me, but I knew that this wasn't going to be good for our family or for our children. I just knew that in my heart intuitively. And so I decided to stand up for my marriage. I decided to fight the lawsuit and to fight for my marriage.
- [01:19]
Kylie Griswold
Hi everybody and welcome to the Kylie cast. I'm Kylie Griswold, managing editor at the Federalist. Please like and subscribe wherever you get your podcast so you never miss an episode. Leave us a five star review. And even better yet, if you're just listening to the show, go check out the full video version on my personal YouTube channel or the Federalist channel on Rumble. And then of course, like and subscribe there too. If you'd like to email the show, you can do so@radiohefderalist.com we would always love to hear from you today. I am so excited to be joined by Beverly Willett. Beverly is a retired New York City lawyer. She's also the author of Disassembly Required and she is a frequent contributor to the Federalist. And I'm so honored that she is here today to talk with me about such an important topic, which is divorce, and specifically to talk about spouses who are divorced against their will. So, Beverly, welcome to the Kylie cast.
- [02:12]
Beverly Willett
Thank you. Good morning. It's great to be here.
- [02:15]
Kylie Griswold
So great to have you. I always get to chat with you over email, but we've never gotten to talk face to face like this. So, so very fun to have you on the show today. Why don't we start for listeners who maybe haven't read any of your work or aren't familiar with you, can you just tell us a little bit more about who you are, where you come from, and how you got into the work you do?
- [02:34]
Beverly Willett
Okay. Well, I grew up in Maryland and after law school I went to New York City and started practicing law. Met my ex husband, like right away. We fell in love, got married, had two children. I became a stay at home mom at some point because just the lifestyle of two lawyers working in New York with kids just didn't work. So I became a stay at home mom. Yes. And then literally we celebrated our 20th anniversary. I thought that things were just, you know, I mean, all marriages have troubles. I mean, that's, I just read a wonderful book by a woman named Ida Gores who wrote back in the 50s and 60s and 70s in Germany on marriage. And she said, you know, this for better and worse, you know, it's already built into the marriage vow. So it's not like people come and say later, well, we've got problems. She's like, those problems are already built into the marriage. And I thought that was just so perceptive. So wonderful book. Just translated into English a few months ago. But to go back on topic. So we had, we had problems, but I thought our marriage was really solid, our finances were great, we had two beautiful kids doing well in school. And then out of the blue one day I found out that my ex was having an affair. And literally about two, two or three months later, he walked out the door, sued me for divorce in New York. And I was just really just thrown off my equilibrium for a long, long time. So basically what I did is New York at the time was one of the few states that, that did not have no fault divorce. They had not enacted no fault divorce yet. Which is really kind of. People are stunned when I tell them that because you think of New York as being this very blue, progressive, liberal state and they didn't have no fault divorce. Well, they didn't. And part of the reason which I learned from my lawyer at the time, was that the Catholic Church, the lobby was so great there that they were able to stop, stop it from getting enacted. So literally I had the right when under no fault divorce, I mean, 48 states now have unilateral no fault divorce. Basically means if your spouse sues you, you cannot defend the lawsuit. You, you, you, you just have to basically shut up and, and let them divorce you.
- [05:04]
Kylie Griswold
Right. But New York and all 50 states have, have no fault divorce. But it's just the 48 that's unilateral. So in any state you can get divorced for any reason whatsoever.
- [05:14]
Beverly Willett
That is, that is correct. That is correct. So, so New York didn't have any form of no for divorce. And they, and they certainly didn't have a unilateral no fault divorce. So the light bulb sort of went on in my head and I said to my, to my lawyer, well, first of all, our marriage therapist says this marriage can be saved. And why would you want to throw it away? Well, I certainly didn't want to throw the marriage away. Marriage was sacred to me. So I said, well, gee, you mean I can oppose, oppose this? And he said, yes, you can. You can oppose it if you want. I don't recommend it because the New York courts treat all, all divorce actions as if, you know, the couples want to be divorced or as if no fault divorce has already been enacted. Well, I found that shocking. How can a judge treat something that's not even legal?
- [06:05]
Kylie Griswold
But that's.
- [06:05]
Beverly Willett
When was this. This was in 2003. So, whoa, this is a long, long time ago. So just to get a long time,
- [06:15]
Kylie Griswold
though, after no fault divorce had, the ball had been rolling on no fault divorce like that started in what, the 70s?
- [06:21]
Beverly Willett
That started in 1970 in California. That was the first one. And by 1985, most states had enacted unilateral no fault divorce. Okay, so New York was this outlier for decades.
- [06:37]
Kylie Griswold
That's so surprising. Yes.
- [06:39]
Beverly Willett
Isn't that surprising? I mean, I thought that was surprising too, but that was the scenario. And, you know, I prayed about it. And I knew that, that a lot of the, the research on the negative consequences of divorce was just being developed. I hadn't read a lot of it. So much more has come out in the last 20 years since my divorce. But intuitively I knew at the time that not only did I not want a divorce, not only did my vows something to me, but I knew that this wasn't going to be good for our family or for our children. I just knew that in my heart intuitively. And so I, I decided to stand up for my marriage. I decided to, to fight the lawsuit and to fight for my marriage. Fast forward six and a half years later. I literally was in court for almost seven years. I actually won the lawsuit. I actually got on the stand. I went through a full trial where at the time, you know, my ex, since I wouldn't give in, they were shocked that I wouldn't give in. So they did everything they could to try and make me give in, to pressure me with paper. My legal bills were six figures by the time that it was done. They did everything they could to try and make me stop moving forward with the divorce action. And, you know, I can only say that my faith gave me the strength to keep going. My children and my faith gave me the strength to keep going because it was really, really rough.
- [08:15]
Kylie Griswold
Yeah, well, and in this instance, as in so many other legal issues, the process is the punishment. You know, a lot of people can't endure that long and that many legal bills. And you know, you'll just get, you'll just get tired out, you'll get tuckered out, your resources will be expended. And you know, for any people who maybe would be in the same situation as you where they don't want to get divorced, they view their marriage as low conflict. They, you know, want to work through their problems, but they cann withstand the legal pressure, the financial burden, losing their job, the, you know, custody battles, all of that. I mean, that's, that's crazy to be dragged through this for seven years and be able to withstand that.
- [08:57]
Beverly Willett
You hit the nail on the head, Kylie. I mean, you really hit the nail on the head. And, and that was something that I thought long and hard about during my own journey because I thought, you know, it wasn't just for me, it wasn't just for my children. I really started to realize and I was contacted by other people that if I had the strength, that if God gave me the will and the strength to keep going, and especially because I had been a lawyer, so I was a good advocate for myself, I knew how to speak on the spot. If I had those talents, I'd been given those talents, that I had a responsibility to use them also for the good of other people. And so that really factored into what I was doing. It really scared me, the money and all of that. Of course I was even, even myself, I was fearful. And in the end, ultimately, even though I won the lawsuit, what happened was, is that my ex moved to New Jersey where they had no fault divorce. And he basically what he would have been able to do after establishing domicile for a certain period there, he would have been to refile the case in New Jersey as a no fault divorce. I would then be dragged to New Jersey, have to hire another lawyer, drive to New Jersey in court. Okay. And I needed finances to live on too. And basically in no fault in New Jersey, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have any ability to fight it. So basically they out strategized me at the very end and I, you know, wound up having to at least give in to that. We had, we had another trial over money issues because I wasn't going to give up our house. I was going to allow my children to grow up in their home. They weren't going to lose that too. So not to get into the weeds on this, but that's that's basically what happened. And now in 2010, New York, the governor of New York signed the legislature adopted unilateral no fault divorce. Governor Patterson at the time signed it into law. And so now New York is a firm unilateral no fault divorce state.
- [11:12]
Kylie Griswold
Right. Which it was only a matter of time because again, it's New York. But yeah, it is crazy that you can just cross state lines into a no fault divorce state, which at this point is probably a moot point because again, there's only two states where it's not unilateral, but crazy that you can, that your spouse who does not want to be divorced can live in a state where there isn't no fault divorce and you can move and still drag them to court in a, in a no fault divorce state. And let me just, let me just
- [11:38]
Beverly Willett
point out one other thing and that is because this is very central to the majority of these kinds of cases. Okay. The spouse who is the guilty spouse in terms of breaching the marriage vow and breaching the marriage contract. My ex was having an affair, he's the guilty spouse. The guilty spouse can sue the innocent spouse and get the divorce. So basically you, our whole system of fairness and justice when it comes to divorce law in this country is completely flipped, flipped around because usually it's the innocent one who has the right to bring a cause of action because they have been aggrieved by some breach of contract or, or something else in the law.
- [12:29]
Kylie Griswold
Right.
- [12:30]
Beverly Willett
And so this is flipped on its head where the inn is, where the guilty spouse is, who is being empowered by our divorce system.
- [12:39]
Kylie Griswold
Right. Right now we're going to get to reforms and you know, constitutionality and all of that stuff in a bit here. But it seems to me that, you know, especially because you could be dragged from a state that protected marriage to a no fault divorce state if your husband could establish domicile there and drag you to court in a different state that had no fault divorce. I mean, this to me seems like an issue where if the federal government has any interest in any institutions at all, it's defending marriage federally, you know, from a, on a national scale. And so we'll get to reforms later. But it just, it strikes me that even the patchwork of state laws on something so foundational to our society and our, the well being of children as marriage, that it, that it can be so fractured state by state seems like a real problem to me. Like this is something that should be protected federally. No?
- [13:31]
Beverly Willett
Well, yeah, I mean, we can get into that. I mean, generally, marriage and divorce laws, our. Are the province of the state. And even the Supreme Court has been, has been, you know, has said that. And then that's, that's just sort of really, you know, hundreds of years of history and legal decisions that say it's the province of the state. However, there are certain things that do rise to a federal level. When you get to the fact that the Supreme Court has said that, you know, marriage is a fundamental right, so the states have some limitations on them. When it gets to the point that they are impinging up fundamental right, then the federal system can take over. So that's, that's, that's another issue. And, you know, I hear that often, too. Well, this is a state issue. This is nothing to do with. Well, no, not, not when you rise to the point of it, of recognizing that it's a fundamental right and you're impinging upon that.
- [14:27]
Kylie Griswold
Right, Right, right, right. So before we move on from your personal experience, I mean, you, you were a practicing attorney in New York, so you, as you said, you know, had the, the wherewithal to represent yourself or to be able to speak on this issue. But what was your experience with the, with divorce prior to this? Like, I assume you were not a divorce attorney. Did you, did you know about the need for divorce reform before this happened to you?
- [14:53]
Beverly Willett
Zero.
- [14:54]
Kylie Griswold
Zero.
- [14:55]
Beverly Willett
And in fact, nobody in my family had gone through a divorce. I grew up in a very religious. I'm Catholic now, but I grew up in a Baptist and a Protestant family. And nope, no divorces. And everybody took marriage as very sa. How I was brought up. And that's, that's what I believed. I. I saw people going through difficult times, you know, in, in my, in my extended family and saw them working it out and, and everyone sort of coming together to help. So that was the model for me. You know, there were a few, I guess, friends in our circle that had been divorced, but really not even a lot of people in our, in our circles who'd been divorced. So it was very unfamiliar to me. I mean, I think I took. I think I took family law for the bar exam, you know, and sort of CR that because that wasn't my focus in law school. So I knew enough, you know, I knew enough to pass the bar exam, but never came across any of it in my dealings and my practice as a lawyer. So this was a real awakening for me on a personal level, a family level, and on a legal level. And it sort of really just sort of gave me a purpose because I really started writing and advocating in this area and it had. I'd never even thought about it before.
- [16:12]
Kylie Griswold
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- [16:25]
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- [16:40]
Kylie Griswold
So obviously there's lots of research done on the effects of divorce and we can get into some of that later as well. Actually, you write in a recent Federalist piece. I'll just jump ahead here. Men, women and children suffer on every level of wellness, physical, emotional and financial. Negative consequences include poverty, suicide, depression, substance abuse, juvenile delinquency, decreased longevity, trauma, you name it. Fatherless homes persist, family breakdown is associated with school shooters, children are not okay, and research debunks the myth of the quote unquote resilient child with suffering extending well into adulthood. That's such a shocking list. And yet these are statistics and, you know, social markers that we confront regularly when we talk about the effects of divorce. But in your personal experience, I mean, aside from six figure, you know, legal obligations and seven years of being dragged through the legal system, what, what was the blast radius in your own life? Like, what effects did you see on your own children in your own home? You know, academically, emotionally, mentally? Like, like, how did this affect you and your family?
- [17:46]
Beverly Willett
Well, you know, I really don't want to get into, you know, my, my children are adults now, and I really sort of feel like their story is there, you know, like, I, I don't want to talk specifics in terms of them. I mean, obviously it affected all of us. Us, obviously it was a huge emotional trauma for all of us. I fought to basically have the home because I, I realized that their lives were already being upended with their family breaking apart with a, with a new woman coming into their life, you know, being presented as dad's new wife. And they would have to deal with that. She had a son, so there was already a, you know, a stepbrother. So I knew that they would, There was so much, I mean, I just will say at one point everybody was in therapy. I mean, so I can, I can say, I think I've said that in print. And, you know, if they'd lost their home too, been losing their home, I wouldn't have been able to afford to live in the neighborhood. So they would also lose Their neighborhood, they would. They would not necessarily be going to the same schools. Our church was a block away. So there were all of these ripple effects that I knew would happen that happen to so many people. If you lose one thing, then it's the ripple effect of the neighborhood, the. The safety of the neighborhood, the safe neighborhood that you're living in, because that's very important. A marriage is important to safe, safe communities. And more married. The more married families there are in a community, the safer the community is.
- [19:09]
Kylie Griswold
Right.
- [19:10]
Beverly Willett
So it would have. It would have. It would have been even worse. And as it was, it was terrible. I mean, emotionally for me. Eventually I did have to sell the home because I couldn't afford it anymore because of the, you know, I was sort of given only a. A couple of years of alimony. And emotionally, I've written in the USA Today that I contemplated suicide. So that definitely was something that happened to me. A therapist diagnosed me with ptsd. I don't know whether some of the health issues that I have now can be attributed back to that or not, because there's still ongoing research, church. But definitely, you know, emotionally, it was. It was a traumatic upheaval for me emotionally. So.
- [20:03]
Kylie Griswold
Yeah, well, and it's worth noting that, you know, people always talk about the kids in divorce. And, you know, you. You mentioned the resilient child in this piece, the myth of the resilient child. But it goes even beyond children who are still in the home or young children. Now. There's such a phenomenon of gray divorce where couples are being. Are. Are separating or spouses are being abandoned later in life after their children have left the home, maybe after they already have grandchildren, you know, etc. And this affects even children who are no longer under the roof of their parents. You know, there are people who stay together until their kids are out of the home under the illusion that this is somehow, you know, they're. They're saving the kids and, and, you know, they're only doing this for the kids, and then the kids leave and they get divorced. And as if there isn't a psychological, emotional effect of that.
- [20:50]
Beverly Willett
That.
- [20:50]
Kylie Griswold
And I know them before us and other organizations have done great work just documenting the effects of gray divorce. And they are. They are not insignificant. Like, this is not just something that affects young children. It affects the entire family for all of time. Because marriage is very important, not something to be taken lightly at all.
- [21:08]
Beverly Willett
You are, you're absolutely right. My friend, author Lila Miller has. Has spoken with many of these adult children of divorce and has written A couple of books on it. So I would, I would recommend that. So that, yeah, that's definitely a myth. But you know, these, these myths persist in our culture. I mean, these are the loudest voices in our culture. Continue to put those myths out there in the culture or point to, you know, one. I'm not saying that in the statistics, statistics in social science never are 100%. They just, they just aren't. I mean, that's, that would be silly. So, you know, they want to take one situation where kids were fine, you know, and say, see, it didn't happen to my kids, or whatever. But we also know from the research with adult children of divor is that children are accommodating. Children love their parents. I mean, for goodness sakes, they are made from one flesh. And so to ask them to take, you know, the sides from one parent or another, no matter what that parent has done, if that parent's gone to jail, I mean, you still love your father or your mother, I mean, because they gave birth to you. So a lot of times children are reluctant to talk about it. So it's wonderful that there are some stories coming out now from children of divorce who are, who are, who are willing and able to speak out about it because it's a very difficult thing to do when you're talking about your parents who you love.
- [22:31]
Kylie Griswold
Yeah, right, right. Well, speaking of great divorce, let's chat about your piece in the Federalist about Mary Bowen. So Mary Bowen is a 67 year old, I believe she's a schoolteacher, retired school teacher.
- [22:44]
Beverly Willett
She's still teaching.
- [22:45]
Kylie Griswold
She's still teaching.
- [22:46]
Beverly Willett
Good for her, teaching fourth grade.
- [22:49]
Kylie Griswold
Okay, so you write a piece in the Federalists about her and other couples or abandoned spouses, more like, who are fighting to save their marriages. Mary has filed a constitutional challenge to Texas's no fault divorce statute. Can you just kind of fill us in a little bit more about her story? And then this is a parallel case also with Jeff Morgan, I believe another spouse in Texas who's fighting to save his marriage. Just fill us in on like, what exactly these legal challenges are. What are they fighting for? And you know, what does recourse look like for a spouse who wants to save their marriage but can't?
- [23:26]
Beverly Willett
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- [23:41]
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- [23:56]
Beverly Willett
Okay, so, you know, this is, I would say that this is sort of, I don't think anyone has done any statistical analysis on it, but just because I've been working in this area for about 20 years, it's, I'm starting to see a growing movement towards spouses who are saying I don't have any rights in court, I'm being divorced against my will, and I want to save my marriage. And they're coming out and talking about this. This has been going on, though, for literally 20, 25 years. You know, every once in a while a little lawsuit will pop up somewhere in our country where someone is saying this. And I was contacted, you know, 20 years ago by, by some people who just saw my writing about it and said, wow, you know, we were divor our will, but there's nothing we can do and we don't have the, the money or the, or the voice to be able to do this, keep speaking out. And so it's just, it's this little growing movement that I, that I've been seeing along the way. Actually, Mary Bowen contacted me a couple of years ago. She was sued in 2021 by, by her husband in Texas. And she said to me, she said, I couldn't, I couldn't find any stories, published stories out there about people fighting for their marriage in court. And I saw yours and I wanted to reach out. So she filed. So actually, she was sued back in 2021 by her husband. She got married in the Catholic Church, where marriage is considered indissoluble. And that was the commitment that they made. They got married in the church and exchanged those vows. And, and she got a lawyer. She's gone through two lawyers. And she really wanted to fight it, but she didn't know how. And she felt like she was being pulled along in mediation, being pulled along to settle. And by the way, she has one son who's a grown son, and she felt very uncomfortable with this and felt like that her needs weren't being met by her lawyers. So she got rid of both of her lawyers and she decided to. She's. She was scared to death. She decided that she was just going to challenge this on her own, and she filed a constitutional challenge back in the fall. And, and.
- [26:23]
Kylie Griswold
Can we pause there for a second? Can you explain? So it's a constitutional challenge to Texas's no fault divorce law. Can you. So can you explain in what sense no fault divorce is unconstitutional? Like, can you just break that down on a very Basic, basic legal level. What are the arguments there?
- [26:43]
Beverly Willett
Okay, and let me just, let me just say too, that, that, that her lawsuit and Jeff Morgan's lawsuit involve multiple claims. So there, there are federal constitutional claims, there are claims about the Texas constitutional. There are religious rights that they have claimed are being violated.
- [27:04]
Kylie Griswold
Okay.
- [27:06]
Beverly Willett
Rights of conscience. So it's, it's a whole composite of, I don't know, 11, 12 different causes of action.
- [27:13]
Kylie Griswold
Okay.
- [27:13]
Beverly Willett
But just going back to federal constitutional law, okay, Basically what you have in a unilateral no fault divorce situation is you have a spouse who's coming in and basically saying that there are irreconcilable differences in the marriage. I want a divorce. And that's all they basically have to say. They only have to say, really? I want a divorce. Essentially, they have, they don't have to allege any facts in their complaint. They don't have to prove any facts. They don't have to prove that the other party, their spouse, who they're suing, has done anything wrong. Because wrongdoing doesn't matter. In, in a divorce lawsuit, any wrongdoing on the part of the spouse that you're suing is completely irrelevant. And in so many cases, it's actually the spouse who is, who's, who's the, the wrongful party, who's the one that's, that's bringing the action. So you don't have to allege any facts. You don't have to. You, you can. I'm sorry, I, I use this example a lot, you know, because, because I'm a woman, you know, and if you're, you're tired that, and just forgets to put the toilet seat down, that's good enough. And neither do you even have to allege that that's the reason why you want. I did an article for the Institute for Family Studies once of this woman who wrote this big article in the New York Times about her divorce and how happy she is. And basically she said that one of the benefits is that she had kids, young kids, she wanted to be able to play her ukulele more. I mean, that is a true story. New York Times big. Okay, so it doesn't matter. So you can come in. And so basically this violates so many fundamental rights that a person has. I mean, it violates just basic fairness. I love the quote by Justice Potter Stewart, who was in the Supreme Court years ago in a pornography case. He says, I know it when I see it. I don't have to write it out and tell you what it is. I know pornography when I see it, okay? So you look at these cases and you know there's something unfair about it, okay? You still have to show why it's invalid constitutionally. But you just look at, look at it and you say there's something unfair about a person coming in, getting a divorce just on demand, for no reason whatsoever, just saying, I want a divorce. And this is supposed to be the most sacred institution we have. Even the Supreme Court has said it's a fundamental right of marriage is a fundamental right, and it is sacred to people who live their lives by, by their religion. And it can be severed for absolutely any reason. And nobody has to offer. Offer proof. Well, every lawsuit you have to. To offer proof. That's a right of due process. As, as an individual, when someone brings a lawsuit against you, according to the 14th amendment, which has been applied to the states, you have a right to, to defend yourself. That's a fundamental right of due process, a right to defend yourself. You have a right to hear the charges against you. No charges are being brought against you. There are no charges against you. So how can you defend yourself? You have a right to call witnesses. That's another fundamental right of due process. You don't have any right to call witnesses because you have no right to defend yourself. Evidence. I mean, all of these, these rights are guaranteed by the Constitution under due process. It's also, it's also a breach of substantive due process because marriage is a fundamental right. And when you have a fundamental right that's being impinged upon, okay, any state law that's going to pass muster under the strict scrutiny test has got to show a substantial reason for the need for the law. Well, what's the need for a unilateral divorce law? Why does a state need that? If the public policy says that marriage is important and marriage is sacred and marriage is. I mean, there is no. There is no. There's no reason, let alone a substantial reason that can. They can pass strict scrutiny. There just. There just. There just isn't. So that's the basic constitutional argument. And I can also say that, you know, they're raising claims that relate to their religious rights, too.
- [32:10]
Kylie Griswold
Right.
- [32:11]
Beverly Willett
Oh, let me just add equal protection. Sorry. There's just so much here that it's just so multifaceted. It's so multifaceted that I'm just thinking, you know, in my view, the Supreme Court's got to take it up one day, and one of these arguments has to win if you also look at equal protection. So not only Due process, the other prong of the 14th Amendment, you look at equal protection, you have a plaintiff and defendant who are on different grounds. Here you basically have it, have the state passing a law that is contrary to the beliefs and rights. So they're defining marriage in a way that the defendants are not defining marriage. And they're putting the plaintiffs and the defendants on different terms and discriminating against them by the very law that these states have passed. So it's a violation in my view, of equal protection as well.
- [33:03]
Kylie Griswold
Right?
- [33:05]
Beverly Willett
Right.
- [33:09]
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- [33:42]
Beverly Willett
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- [34:14]
Kylie Griswold
Well, and even more fundamentally, I mean, it's a violation of natural law. Like that is where we derive this fundamental right to marriage. Marriage is the only institution, you know, that the union of a man and a woman and like a covenant marriage is the only institution that like defines. It's found in the most basic laws of nature. And it is the institution that protect, that builds families and protects and defends the rights of children. And once you define that away, anything is up for grabs. You know, it's, it's so, so it's not just about like substantive due process and all these other things. Like those are all important arguments to make, but like it's even way more fundamental than that by being a violation of natural law. Like we can observe this in nature. This is something that, that predates our Constitution, you know, this is like more fundamental than that by a lot, you know, so.
- [35:06]
Beverly Willett
Absolutely right. And that's part of, part of their argument too in terms of the religious rights. I mean, that is, that is so, so their, their belief is in, in what you just described. And, and part of that belief comes from their religious rights and their Religious freedom to. To believe in the. In the permanence of that union, which is. Which is being violated by the state law laws, which.
- [35:32]
Kylie Griswold
You do include a story of one man in your piece, divorced against his will. Where. And correct me on the specifics of this, because I'm just pulling this from my memory, but he was divorced against his will, and the state basically said the odd. They had the audacity to say, you can still exercise your religious freedom by pretending you and your wife are still married. Like, what? That's not.
- [35:55]
Beverly Willett
Yeah, I mean, I think my word was pretending. But if you read the case, that's basically what it says, because they said, you know, you. You just think that you want your rights, but they had married under the. The intention and the belief that. That their marriage was permanent. But you see, as I just say, they discriminate. The law discriminates because they. They basically says, well, well, why should we. Why should we believe you? You know, your views, according to the way that you were married, that marriage is permanent. But by the same token, then they're. Then they're favoring the wife and her. Her new views that marriage. And so. But actually, the way that I characterize it that you read is exactly what the court said. Well, you're still free to think that.
- [36:41]
Kylie Griswold
That is so awkward.
- [36:44]
Beverly Willett
One point I wanted to make when you talked about natural marriage is that, you know, it baffles me that there's so much talk about marriage, you know, and the rights of marriage, and in so many of these lawsuits, okay, when essentially, if you can divorce your spouse for any reason at any time, okay, with. And there's no compensation either. I mean, it's not like these statutes say, okay, this person can divorce you, and we will give you the divorce on demand, and we will compensate you in some way for the breach. We will compensate you in. In some way for all the repercussions that you're gonna face. Okay, There's. There's no compensation for it either. Absolutely no compensation for it. And what was I just gonna say? I'm so sorry I lost my turn.
- [37:42]
Kylie Griswold
You were going back to natural. Natural law.
- [37:46]
Beverly Willett
Oh, my goodness. I'm sorry. I get. I get so excited about talking about all this and all the different things. It'll come to me. It'll come to me in a second. Okay, I know what I was gonna say.
- [37:54]
Kylie Griswold
There you go.
- [37:55]
Beverly Willett
I know what I was gonna say. I'm thinking to myself, well, marriage actually is worth nothing in our culture. I mean, what are we. What are we talking about? If you can get married tomorrow and the next day you can file for divorce. I mean, we have really devalued marriage to the, to the extent that it's worth. Worth nothing. It's worth absolutely nothing. We say, oh, it's only worth partially or it's been devalued. Actually, I think no fault div. Makes it completely worthless. And I don't say that according to my belief, of course I know how valuable marriage is, but our laws have made it completely 100% worthless.
- [38:37]
Kylie Griswold
Right, right. Well, and it's not just no fault divorce. Like, we have completely changed the definition of marriage to be about satisfying adult desires. It's no longer about a lifelong commitment between one man and one woman before God, protected by, you know, protected by the state, whatever for. For the protection and betterment of children and the flourishing of society. Now it's all about adult desires. What do you want? Who do you love? Who do you want to sleep with? You know, and at any given time, for any given reason, children's rights have been violated up and down just completely by, by the redefinition of marriage. But it's not just children either. It's also spouses who are being divorced against their will. And it's a violation of religious, religious rights. I mean, it's, it's, it, as you say, due process, the, you know, constitutional rights, like all of these things. And it, it does not begin and end with no fault divorce. It's a complete devaluation and attempt to redefine marriage to just be the satisfaction of adult desires. And that is never what marriage was supposed to be. You know, that's not how it was designed, and that's not how it functions. Well, and it's certainly not, not what leads to human flourishing. So serious, serious problem there. Let's talk about how the judicial system stacks against marriages and spouses who want to save them. Because you talk about just the overwhelming pressure of the legal system and you've touched on it a little bit. But let's talk about financial incentives and like, how all of the headwinds are against spouses who want to save their marriages. Like, why is the pressure so intense? Why is there nothing legally that is protecting these spouses? Does my question make sense?
- [40:18]
Beverly Willett
Yeah. Yeah. And if, and if I'm not, if I'm not answering exactly what's in your head, you just tell me, but I have something. So, you know, when, when this whole system. Let me just back up a little bit. When this whole system of no fault divorce started back in 1970, okay. And then grew pretty quickly. The idea that was sold of why this was necessary, okay, Is because the divorce rate was too high. Okay? It's about 20 to 25%, right? It grew like overnight it went to 50%. It's come down a little bit. So it was sold as a way that, you know, parties were in court and they were fighting. And if we made it easier, if we took the sting out of, of the blame game, okay, we took the sting out of the blame game, it might make it easier for spouses to reconcile. And there was actually a really famous judge out in California who was talking about marriage hospitals and marriage courts named Lewis Burke. So that was one of the things that would really actually lead to reconciliation. And then of course, lawyers were saying, well, parties who agreed that they wanted a divorce just because they, you know, were tired of each other or who knows, who knows why and agreed that they wanted a divorce, couldn't actually mutually agree to get a divorce because one of them had to take the blame. So they said what happened was, is that perjury was entering the system. Well, of course, lawyers were complicit in that because if they knew that was happening, they were all, they were all in on the game, the perjury game, okay? But all of a sudden it was like, oh, we can't allow this, you know, because that's not right, perjury. But then again, so, so the, the idea was first just to be able to make a situation where, where would parties wouldn't be, wouldn't be at ease at each other's throats. They might be able to reconcile. And marriages that had broken down where both parties said, we want a divorce, that was supposed to be the fix of no fault divorce. So what happened at the time is that it got switched out, okay? There was a politician in California who wanted a divorce. It got switched out. That mutual no fault divorce was replaced by the concept of unilateral no fault divorce. That's the first thing at the time, the matrimonial bar, the family law bar. The matrimonial bar was a very small bar in the United States. Okay? What we saw happen as a result, we see, we see the switch, switcheroo from mutual no fault divorce to unilateral no fault divorce. It sweeps the nation. And we see the matrimonial bar, the family court system grow into this gargantuan 50 plus billion dollar business. Business. It's a business, okay? That's what we see. And of course, some of those statistics are out There. But it's very hard to get those statistics because who's, who's, who's keeping those statistics under the vest? The lawyers themselves, the judges, the family courts. Okay, that's what we really need. We need more research on this. But these are all vested interests to keep, to keep that information under wraps. But that's what we've seen. That's what we've seen, basically. And what perpetuates it is self interest and greed. And we have a lot of state legislatures, legislators who are lawyers. It's becoming less and less lawyers in the state legislatures. But over time, especially early on and still in some places, the state legislators are heavily stacked with lawyers. And so you see that at play there. Self interest and greed. That's what it comes down to.
- [44:33]
Kylie Griswold
And money, well, money. Yep. A 50 billion dollar industry. And I think that might even be a few years old statistic, like, I'm sure it's even bigger than that now.
- [44:41]
Beverly Willett
Yeah, it is. That that statistic is, is, is more than a few years old. And so we know it's, we know it's grown even more.
- [44:48]
Kylie Griswold
But like you say, we probably don't have better statistics than that because who, who wants to cough those up? Who wants to put that together?
- [44:54]
Beverly Willett
Who wants to call those up? And the other thing is that they said that parties wouldn't fight as much. Right. And that, and that the divorce rate would go down. Well, we saw the divorce rate instantly doubled. Yes, it's gone down in recent years. And when anybody tells me that, I tell them so has the marriage rate. So really it's not a statistical, it's not statistically important as far as I'm concerned with marriage plummeting as well. So. And what you've also seen too is that because people can no longer fight for their marriage and demand that someone actually establish a cause of action against them, that most of the fighting between spouses is on the second end, which is over money. Over money? Child support, alimony, children, property division. You haven't seen any, you haven't seen the courts, you know, not be clogged with cases. You've only seen the courts, you know, mushroom because people, people's lives are being threatened here. And so of course now they're going to fight over money because they need to survive.
- [46:04]
Kylie Griswold
Right, right. Yeah, it's, it's so insane to me, just absolutely asinine to think, yes, let's make it easier to get divorced and then divorce rates will, that's just such backward, backwards thinking. And then to take it Back to just the devaluing of marriage on a cultural level. What we do legally conditions our consciences. You know, it goes both ways. Like, our laws reflect what people think about things, but also the way people think about things is an effect of our laws. Like what we say in law conditions people to know how to think about an issue or to view things as right or wrong. And so when you say marriage doesn't matter, you can dissolve it for any reason at any time. No, no fault. We don't need to bicker about it. It's just, you can sue somebody because again, they leave the toilet seat up. That conditions society to say marriage is not important. And then you get to the point where we are here, where, yeah, marriage is redefined as just adult desires and, and nobody values it anymore. But just thinking that, that the rates would go down by making it easier to get divorced is just the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I've ever heard.
- [47:07]
Beverly Willett
Yeah, and you know, I totally agree with you because our laws do help shape our culture. And that was one of the reasons why I have been trying to work for divorce reform. Earlier on, I was working for some modest divorce reform to at least extend waiting periods for parents with minor children to give them marriage education, help with finances or whatever, to try and help them reconcile. Because the statistics say that if you give, if you give parents time to reconcile and you give them help, that statistically there's a greater chance they will reconcile. So I was trying to. Couldn't even get, except for one or two states legislators interested in this, okay? But our laws do shape our culture because we've gotten to the point now, and I see this so much on social media, I see this, this in response to my articles over the last 15 years, is that what we have now entrenched in the thinking of so many people is they now believe that they have a right of divorce. That is a very new thing and a very new kind of thinking in our culture in the last 20 years is that people say, yeah, but I have a right of divorce. There's no constitutional right or state. Well, the state basically has written a right of divorce into.
- [48:40]
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- [49:12]
Beverly Willett
marriage laws, obviously, but there's no independent right of divorce. But that's how people think of it. And I will say to them, but what about your spouse's right? Well, they don't have any right to stay married, but I have the right to undo the marriage. It's, it's not, it's, it's not equal. You can just see that on the, on the face of it. You can see the unfairness of it.
- [49:38]
Kylie Griswold
Right, right. So if the law conditions our culture about marriage, then what in your view are the key reforms we need? This is, I want to end here. I would love to just know, you know, how, how can conservatives better defend marri marriage? But what laws do we need? You know, aside from nuking no fault divorce, you mentioned waiting periods, like what other reforms are, are practical, are necessary to defend the institution of marriage. Well, spouses who are divorced against their wealth.
- [50:07]
Beverly Willett
Yes. Yes. Okay. You know, I'm, I'm still, you know, I was, I was, I always felt that, that no fault divorce was unconstitutional, but I was willing to be, you know, politically realistic, you know, a while back. And I see that that has not changed and that, and that conservatives are not even stepping up to the plate. There was a bill a couple of years in Georgia, I live in Georgia now, and I went over and testified at the legislator and a lot of women came in who said, oh, we're going to send this back to the stone age and domestic violence is going to go up and whatever. And these conservatives in the room, they shut it. Bill went nowhere. They were scared to death. So we need conservatives. Can I just say, we need some conservatives with some courage instead of being cowardly. So we need, we, we definitely need that. And we need, unfortunately, you know, I just have to say too many conservatives take it, take advantage of their own no fault divorces. We need conservatives standing up for marriage. We need them standing up not only for, for, you know, there's, there's, there's, you know, everybody's willing to jump on, you know, the, the same sex marriage bandwagon. Well, what about the 99% of marriages that are heterosexual? What about the rest of us? What about all of them? And what about all those other children? They're not, they're not stepping up to the plate on it. So whether it's, whether it's getting rid of no fault divorce or just stepping up to the plate on that and making some reforms, extending waiting periods we found that with no fault divorce, the waiting period for filing for divorce and getting your divorce kept coming down from a year, some places six months, three months. I think it's like one month in Georgia. So we saw divorce waiting periods come down, and with divorce waiting periods come down, we also saw divorce rates going up. So we can extend waiting periods. We can do that. We can pass the Parental Divorce Reduction act, which is a product of the Coalition for Divorce Reform and many marriage educators and people in the marriage world saying this is a good step that protects domestic violence victims, doesn't hurt anybody, and protects children. So those are definitely things that we can do. But I'm still with Mary Bowen and Jeff Morgan, who are fighting, and they, their, their, their papers are good, their law is good. They're doing this stuff on their own. It's wonderful that we have the Internet now and people can do their own research and if they're smart enough, they can, they can talk to other people and put together their papers. We need more. We need more people fighting for it. And I think we need some of these, these conservative law firms and think tanks. We need them stepping up to the plate on this issue because they're not doing this. That they're not. And I won't call out certain names of some of these conservative law firms that we have defending religious rights and other things for conservatives, but they're not stepping up to the plate on this issue. And I would say we need them stepping up to the plate.
- [53:31]
Kylie Griswold
Yeah, definitely. Well, and just on the political feasibility point that you made about getting rid of no fault divorce, you know, it is. It's worth noting that again, as we talked about, the law sometimes has to predate what people. Public opinion about the law. Um, and so if marriage is worth defending, then it's worth defending whether a majority of Americans are on board with it or not. And, you know, things are, things are politically unpalatable until they're not. You know, who would have thought that 50 years after Roe v. Wade, we would see the overturning of Roe v. Wade? And, you know, maybe it's just about finding the right victims to elevate their stories. And, you know, that sometimes is what can change the tide and what can be effective legally. You know, we saw, saw a failed attempt to overturn Obergefell at the Supreme Court. But in that case, it seems that the victims were wrong, that it was, you know, pitting adults against other adults. And it was just, it was hard to demonstrate that this, that this needed to go. But in the case of that and in the case of, of no fault divorce, it's like children are victims here and maybe we need to be telling the stories of, you know, elevating the right victims to say, this isn't about, this is what this one adult wants and this is what this one adult wants. No, this is a fundamental violation of a person's religious rights. You know, this is a constitutional violation or this is harming children. You know, and sometimes it feels like the needle isn't moving. But we can continue to make these arguments and what may not seem politically feasible today could be politically feasible tomorrow. And so these, these arguments are worth making, even if it seems like a long shot. We just got to keep making the arguments and as you say, be courageous, get in the arena, say what needs to be said and defend it without apology. So I am, I'm totally on board
- [55:14]
Beverly Willett
with what you said. And I think it comes from a place of just doing what's right. And, you know, it's like not questioning. If you're doing what's right, then, then just, just go forth. So, I mean, I've even seen, you know, in the last 15 years I've been working in this area, people are, you know, you. And you never know what, as you said, which case it's going to take, which, you know, so.
- [55:39]
Kylie Griswold
Yep, exactly. Beverly, where can people find more of your work aside from your great work at the Federalists? Where can they find your writing? And if they want to know more about these issues, where, where should they dig?
- [55:51]
Beverly Willett
Beverly Willett dot com. That's two L's and two T's. I have all my articles there. My book is there. If you, if you have a story yourself, or you, or you, you have fought for your marriage, you know, send me a line because I have a contact page there because I really want to tell more of these stories. And so if you have one that you know you want to share, I would love to hear it as well.
- [56:17]
Kylie Griswold
Great, great. You can find Beverly online there. Thank you so much for your insights today. Really appreciate. Thank you for all of your work on this super important issue. I hope we have a chance to chat about it again soon.
- [56:28]
Beverly Willett
Me too. Thank you.
- [56:34]
Kylie Griswold
Thank you so much for tuning in to this week's episode of the Kylie Cast. Please like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We have a channel just for the Kylie cast on Spotify and Apple podcasts. So if you are only subscribed to the Federalist Radio Hour or you're wrong with Molly Hemingway and David Harsanyi two of our other great Federalist podcasts. Make sure you're subscribed to the Kylie cast as well so you never miss an episode and then leave us a five star review. It is such a good way to help out the show and and it's so easy. As always. I will be back next week with more, so until then, just remember the truth hurts, but it won't kill you.