← Federalist Radio Hour
Federalist Radio Hour
“The Kylee Cast” feat. Chloe Cole, Ep. 29: Why The Transgender-Industrial Complex Is In Retreat
00:57:23
On this episode of The Kylee Cast, detransitioner and advocate Chloe Cole joins Federalist Managing Editor Kylee Griswold to break down the Fox Varian case and other detransitioner lawsuits, discuss the Tumbler Ridge shooting and the broader epidemic...
Loading summary
Transcript53 lines
- [00:00]
A
Hi everybody and welcome to the Kylie cast. I'm Kylie Griswold, Managing Editor at the Federalist. Please like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We have a channel that's specifically for the Kylie cast on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. So if you are only subscribed to the Federalist Radio Hour or your're Wrong with Molly Hemingway and David Harsanyi, two of our other wonderful Federalist podcasts, be sure to subscribe to the Kylie cast as well so you never miss an episode. Leave us a five star review. It's one of the easiest and best ways you can help out the show. And even better yet, if you are just listening to the show, go check out the full video version on my personal YouTube channel or the Federalists channel on Rumble. And then of course like and subscribe there too. If you'd like to email the show, you can do so at radio the federalist.com I would love to hear from you today. I am so pleased to welcome to the show Chloe Cole. Chloe is a beautiful young woman. She is a detransitioner and an advocate. Chloe and I dive into her personal story as well as some of the biggest headlines of the day that have to do with the transgender craze and detransitioners. And we offer a reason why you conservative listeners and detransitioners should be hopeful about what the future holds on this issue. It's a conversation you won't want to miss. So without further ado, please welcome to the show. Chloe Cole, Foreign. Thank you so much for joining me on the Kylie cast today. It's so great to have you.
- [01:39]
B
Thank you so much for having me.
- [01:41]
A
Yeah, it's great. I've been wanting to chat with you about your story for a long time. So today is the day. Why don't we. I mean, we've got a lot of news items to get into today, but why don't we just start at the very beginning? For any listeners or viewers who maybe aren't familiar with where you come from or what your story is, can you just rewind kind of back to your childhood? Where are you from? What was your upbringing like? And how did you. How did you get to be the activist that you are today?
- [02:06]
B
Yes, so I am an advocate for the protection of children and parental rights from medical transgenderism, as well as a detransitioner who personally has gone through the process of a medical and social gender transition between the ages of 12 to 16. So before all this started, before I was wrapped up in the transgender world, I was growing up as a pretty, ordinary young girl. In a lot of ways, I was a bit of a tomboy, but I also. I had influence from both sexes, from. From my older sisters to my older brothers. And I was pretty squarely in the middle and all rounder. And I. The older I got, the more that I just felt like I related a lot more to my older brothers and to my male peers, and, like, they were the ones who were always talking about the things that really mattered. And I shared a sense of humor with them. I shared interests, but none of this was something that I really cared about. And, in fact, I actually loved these things about myself and saw them as just another thing that made me different, made me unique, and there was nothing wrong with that until around the time that I started to hit puberty, I was going to middle school. And so around that time, there's just a lot of confusion, I think, for every kid, as you're kind of grappling with the fact that you're starting to grow up for real, and you're eventually going to not just be a boy or a girl, you're either going to be a man or a woman. And there's a huge responsibility that comes with that. And there's all these awkward changes happening in your own body, in your own life and your emotions, and in dealing with people around you as well. And I had an especially rough time with that as I had to move schools, and I was hitting puberty a little bit earlier than a lot of my other peers. So there was a lot of attention that I was getting much earlier than the other kids. And it was very deeply uncomfortable the way that other people would talk about my developing body like I was an adult or like an adult model, rather than like a child or just a human being right in front of them.
- [04:13]
A
Right.
- [04:14]
B
And I also. I never really fit in the mold for different reasons. I was always on the creative side, on top of being a tomboy.
- [04:22]
A
And.
- [04:22]
B
And it just got more and more difficult for me to relate to other girls, to the point that I would sometimes even look in the mirror and think, am I ever going to be pretty enough? Like, I don't. I don't like makeup. I don't like dresses. I don't like purses. And the things that I would often hear about. About womanhood were so negative. It was always about the curses that come with it, things like periods, the pain of pregnancy, rather than the blessings that come as a result of that pain. And so I just had this impression that it was all going to be bad, that it was all going to be painful, and that there was nothing really in it for me, especially as a woman who, especially as a girl didn't feel particularly feminine at the time. But I didn't really had this idea in my head that I was actually a boy until I started using social media around the age of 12. And that was where I first learned about transgenderism and about both the medical aspects of it. And I started getting radicalized into the ideological as well.
- [05:22]
A
Yeah. So did you find, I mean, was the stuff you were seeing on the Internet, was that like the dark corners of Tumblr or was this just like mainstream stuff from, you know, your, your generic Instagram algorithm or your friends on Facebook? Like, where was it coming from?
- [05:39]
B
So I did use Tumblr a little bit, but I was mostly. There's at the time, there's a bit of an overlap between Tumblr and different platforms like Twitter and especially Instagram. There were a lot of. It didn't start with me using Tumblr. It, I mean, that was when I first started to learn a little bit about like these ideas from like queer theory and stuff.
- [05:59]
A
Okay.
- [06:00]
B
But it never really personally made a connection to it until I started using Instagram. And at first I was just like seeing what like my friends were seeing from school. Right. It was like memes, it was stuff about like just normal, everyday 12 year old interests until eventually, I mean, I'd always been a little bit on the nerdier side. So I started to venture a little bit more into like the fan bases around like my favorite bands, my favorite cartoons and stuff. And in these communities, and this is still the case today, if not even worse. But there was like this ideological undertone to a lot of it where a lot of these kids my age, it wasn't celebrities who I was following, it was kids who were talking about like these, these same interests. And they also would talk a little bit about their own personal lives and their beliefs. And that's where I started to learn a lot about like different, different aspects of leftist politics from. Some of these kids were like full blown socialists. I'm not even. I mean, at least they would say they were, they were, they were young enough that they probably didn't really fully understand just what they were talking about. But also a lot of them were going a little bit more into identity politics as well, like feminism and, and talking about either identifying as like being gay or these different like gender identities, like non binary Pangender. It was really, it was just really interesting to me at the time because it was very stimulating in a way that I think a lot of. A lot of young people could. I think it for a lot of young people who already are like kind of on the outside of the mold and they're looking for a sense of identity, it can give them something that they can relate to in a way. And that certainly was the case for me. But it was just so, like, learning about, like all these different flags, different words, and just these people's personal experiences was something that at first drew my curiosity. And then after a little bit, I wondered why I was so curious about it. And then that curiosity led to questioning of myself and going through these different names, these, These different terms before I finally settled on thinking, okay, I have never felt comfortable with my developing breasts or the things that people would say about it. I don't even feel like I'm pretty or feminine enough to fit in with other women. I think that I'm just a flat out young man. And that's why I've never felt like myself. I thought that was it. I thought that I finally found the answer and that I was never going to feel alone again. I was never going to feel like I wasn't myself ever again.
- [08:51]
A
Yeah. So for you, it really was that you thought you were a boy and not a girl. It wasn't just a discomfort with, with all things feminine. It was. You genuinely were wondering, am I in the wrong body? Am I, am I hearing you right? Because I did have a conversation, a similar conversation with Walt Heyer about his transition. And obviously you're talking about huge generational difference there, but he was more just trying to escape who he was. He didn't necessarily think he was a woman. It was just like, I need a new identity because I can't be Walt anymore. But for you, like, are you saying that you are, like, maybe I am actually a man?
- [09:29]
B
I mean, there was a little bit of wanting to escape the shame of my life up until that point, just like being like an awkward girl who had a hard time adjusting and wanting to be somebody new. But I also was really. I genuinely believed this idea that there was something wrong with me that was making me feel unsettled with myself and that it was. It became from the fact that I actually on. On some level was a man rather than a woman who just. Who just so happened to be born the wrong body.
- [10:04]
A
Yeah. And were these messages that you were also getting from school in like an institutionalized way? I mean, were they Just coming from your peers via social media or I know you were in. In California, which I'm sure was even further left to, like, where a lot of. Of these other young people who are struggling with some of these identity issues come from. Were these ideas and these curiosities reinforced in the classroom, like from your teachers and counselors, or was it not really an issue when you were going through it as much?
- [10:34]
B
So what I was learning on the Internet then is what a lot of children are unfortunately learning in the classroom now. But at that point in time, it could be that my school was a little bit behind on the curriculum that they're giving out to across California now. But this was something that I never heard about in school. Even after I transitioned and I. And I graduated, I never heard about this in high school at all. But there, there was institutional pushing of this to me the moment that I started going to therapy.
- [11:10]
A
Okay, so, yeah, I want to get into some of that next. So you start to have some of these thoughts that I, maybe I am a boy. You're curious about, you know, maybe changing up your identity or figuring out where you fit in. So where did you turn first? Did you immediately find a therapist? And was there any resistance or questioning of this along the way? I know a lot of stories from now detransitioners who, who kind of inserted themselves into the pipeline or worth kind of thrust into the pipeline. And there was just never a question of, are there other underlying mental health issues? Is there something else that's unaddressed here, like childhood trauma or something? Was there any of that in your experience? Or was it just kind of, she thinks she's a boy. Here we go. Like, you know, cue the puberty blockers and hormones.
- [12:02]
B
I don't think the adults in the room, other than my mom and dad, did their job at all the way that they were supposed to. I think that any sane adult would see a young girl the way that I was and think, okay, so she's confused about her identity. She doesn't like her body. Well, she's at an age where children and especially girls tend not to. But maybe there's something deeper behind the scenes that we're not seeing. So we're going to start asking her questions. No, they didn't do that at all. There was none of that. It was just they were. So they were going pretty much completely by protocol. Right. Which that means to not question at all, to go along with whatever the child wants and allow that to guide the course of treatment rather than being the adult in the room and being the guidance and really using common sense. My mom and dad, when I first told them about this confusion around my sex, were. I mean, they were on it. They wanted to. Their first instinct was to start researching because they didn't know anything about this. They never had to deal with this with any of my older brothers or sisters. So it was very new to them. But everything was pointing them in the direction of either affirmation or getting me clinical treatment as soon as possible, when their assumption of what treatment meant was psychiatric intervention that would hopefully get behind all this and also teach me how to cope with these feelings in an age appropriate manner that wouldn't push me into any permanent decisions that could potentially get me hurt. But the doctors had the very opposite idea in mind. As soon as they came to them and they were told that my mom and dad were told by these doctors and pretty much every single one who was involved, that this was very serious, that we had to address this now, that nothing could wait. And in doing so, it could get me seriously hurt because I might take my own life from being forced to go through puberty and develop secondary sex characteristics and look more like a woman as I got older and feel more and more detached from my supposed true identity as a young man who I claim to be. And my mom and dad never believed that I was transgender or a boy. But they just kept having this idea drilled into their head that I was going to die without this. And no parent wants to hear that, especially from a clinician. I don't blame my mom and dad for saying yes because they had no other options given they were not told about any alternatives. And these were the people who they entrusted to help take care of me, telling them that I, in order to live, I was going to have to undertake this. CNBC needs to start being honest with themselves. The Watchdog on Wall street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day, Chris helps unpack the connection between politics and the economy and how it affects your wallet. CNBC's calls are not just wrong, they're really wrong. The fast Money Circus on cnbc. The F Fast money circus on CNBC has gone too far. Whether it's happening in D.C. or down on Wall street, it's affecting you financially. Be informed. Check out the Watchdog on Wall street podcast with Chris Markowski on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [15:38]
A
These are people, after all, who took an oath to do no harm and who are supposed to be, you know, the, the arbiters of science and research. And they're supposed to know what is the correct course of action and then prescribe that. And that emotional blackmail component of that is so strong. And that is such a, it's such a big part of the Fox Varian case, which we're going to talk about here in just a minute. Just this idea that would you rather have a live son or a dead daughter or vice versa? And that the power of that question, from medical professionals to parents who feel vulnerable and scared is, cannot be understated. And it's so common. And you know, especially, especially before, like when you were dealing with this. I mean, we know a lot more now because conservative media and others and other activists like you have done a great job of bringing research to light that shows, you know, actually suicide rates for people who do go through with medical interventions and transgender surgeries is as high, if not higher than, than for people who are denied these, these things or do not, do not follow through with so called, wrongly termed gender affirming care. But parents, I mean, it's their primary job to protect their children. And so when you have a doctor who has taken an oath to do no harm confront you with, well, your child is going to kill themselves if you do not do X, Y and Z, that's emotional blackmail and that is strong and that has a lot of power. And so, yeah, I don't even know how as a parent, especially before, you know, in the past, I can't imagine having to withstand that kind of pressure. That's just a lot. And so before I ever want to
- [17:25]
B
know what my mom and dad went through.
- [17:27]
A
No, no. At any step of the process, I mean, I really can't imagine, can't imagine. Before we get into the Fox Varian case, because I really want to dive into that. It's really groundbreaking and exciting stuff. I do just want to touch on another thing you said in your first answer. So we're rewinding a little bit here, but I do think it's such a challenge for conservatives to do much better messaging around womanhood and how beautiful and awesome it is. And, you know, I know as you're going through the throes of puberty, it might not be convincing to you, but it is so damaging. Even among many conservatives, there's still this undercurrent of feminism that motherhood is a burd marriage is unfair to women, that, you know, there's just so many toxic messages. And we have an opportunity here, you know, to tell young women, like, yeah, puberty is rough, like having your first period and adjusting to all of that, that can be. That can be a really tough time. But shepherding them through that with positive messaging about how awesome it is to be a woman, I mean, I don't know all the ways we can do it better, but I know we can do it better because marriage and motherhood and femininity are incredible. And, And I would never want to discourage young women who are already feeling the pressure of my body is changing and this is uncomfortable and I'm getting unwanted attention with. It's not going to get better because it does. It gets a lot better. And it's, it's great. I love it. I wouldn't trade it for anything.
- [18:57]
B
So it's something that I, I hope to know myself one day. I, I mean, the, the single biggest thing that broke me out of the ideology was learning that one day I would want to become a mother. And that would conflict with not just this lifestyle, but also the fact that by doing this so young, I could be sterilized and learning a little bit about breastfeeding as well, and realizing I'm going to miss out on this very beautiful part of God's design for me, and so are my children. And it was the regret of that, it was the grief, and also knowing that there was a way forward, that really, that was the final straw and it gave me the courage to finally get back out of this lifestyle. And you're absolutely right that I think conservatives could do a much better job at messaging in general. Young women, we can see, we can see that clearly in the political divide in my generation between the sexes, like so many young women, are falling into increasingly radical leftism, while young men have always been pretty, pretty fairly conservative. That is something that I don't think has, has really changed over the years. But we have to ask ourselves, why is there that divide? I don't know. I don't. I really don't think that there's one straight answer. Yeah, but having spent some time in the conservative space for about four years, I would say, and I would say that conservatives, especially commentators, tend to seem to either be between one of two extremes. It's either like, hyper feminism, like, focusing on yourself, yourself, yourself, your career, your career, your career before you decide to get married, or it's. Women's worth comes down pretty much entirely to their. To being a wife and to being able to have kids, which, I mean, I think that both of those things are very important. I think that there's this naive idea that before, like the Industrial Revolution, women were just like, never, never pretty much Anywhere except for the home. No, like, we've always been working, we've always been contributing to the economy to some degree. But I think that there is a middle ground that we can establish that, yes, our identity, an important part of identity for many women is going to come from womanhood, from. From motherhood, from being a wife. And I think a lot of women should focus on doing that sooner than later because obviously we have a. A very narrow amount of time. We have a biological clock that what. That men really don't have. And so it's kind of an imperative for those of us who really want to do it to try and get married and build a family as soon as possible. But I think that that's also something that we can balance with having a career and having an education as well. I think it was trying to navigate this confusing messaging as a kid that just made me want to opt out of being a woman entirely. Like, seeing some people say, like, oh, like, most of your worth is going to come from whether you're fertile, whether you're a mother, whether you're a wife, and other people, other people saying, like, oh, you should just focus on having a. Having a career and not. Not focus on. On anybody but yourself or your. Or. Or not focus on having a family.
- [22:17]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I just love that how strong that pull was and that the reason, you know, the straw that broke the camel's back in. In your regret story had to do with. With these innately feminine woman things. And just, you know, when we talk about biology and we talk about the sexes, does come down to chromosomes and genitalia. Sure. But it's so much more than that. Like, we've been designed with. With biological urges and biological realities and this innate desire to mother and to nurture and to create life and to sustain life. And, you know, a lot of women now, there's a lot of misplaced mothering where we're seeing that kind of driving people toward, you know, toxic empathy or, like, misplaced activism instead of nurturing and creating another generation. But it's just, you know, those feelings that you had where you're like, wow, I can't. I can't imagine, you know, not having the option to breastfeed or, like, you know, just. Just coming to terms with this regret. It's like, yeah, because. Because our biology is not just reduced to our chromosomes, although it is that. But there's so much more to it than that. Just we've been designed with these awesome capabilities to create and sustain and nurture life and you know, there was the whole feminism era of. I think it was Sheryl Sandberg or whoever. Whoever did the whole lean in messaging to career and how damaging that was to women. Again, not to say that women can't or shouldn't have careers and that there's no place for women in work because. Because of course there is and there can be, but just kind of taking that messaging and turning it the other way and saying, no, lean in to the things that make you feminine and that make you different from men, because those are actually the things that are empowering. Because we're not. We're not men. We're not just, you know, cogs in a corporate machine. Like, we have so much more to offer, and so many of those things are found in these innately biological urges and instincts that we have as women. And, you know, which is why deferring marriage and motherhood for the sake of a career or, you know, freeze. Just freeze your eggs or just experiment with, you know, these transgender things, like, whatever you want to do. It's like, no, we do. We do have a biological clock, and we do have these urges for a reason. And, like, lean into that. Don't lean into the feminist messaging of, you know, just be a corporate cog who. Who finds your fulfillment and clocking in from your 9 to 5 or whatever it is. It's so much bigger than that.
- [24:43]
B
Right. I feel like feminism and the sexual revolution have made it so that we're so far removed from our own biology and the real meaning of things like sex and the reason why our bodies and even our psychology is organized the way that it is. Both men and women are designed around their roles in reproduction. And in women, we're designed very, very painstakingly designed around either either raising children or just taking upon a maternal role in general. And not only has embracing the fact that my body has been designed around that. That creation of new life, but also the fact that, socially, I'm supposed to be amongst other women. I'm supposed to be, in some way nurturing the next generation has, I think, brought a great deal of development and purpose into my life, even as somebody who isn't even a mother or wife yet.
- [25:41]
A
Yeah, that's so awesome. And it's such a message to people, too, who. Who desire that, but haven't found that yet, because you're no less a woman before you are married or have children, and there's still a role. There's still a feminine role for you in your community and in your family and in society. And it's really very important that you lean into that. And I think that role. Right.
- [26:01]
B
And I think that it can be a little bit more difficult for women who naturally are a little bit more masculine leaning or they don't really fit into the mold and they're different in some way. But it's also important to find that balance and to be able to, to be able to find like, female community around you to discover, like, which women are really your friends and keep them close. Especially when it's women who are within your own family when possible, whether it be your mother, your grandmother, an aunt, a sister, a cousin.
- [26:35]
A
Yeah, it's so important to learn from the other women in our lives to help develop and, and foster our own, our own sense of femininity and. Yeah, you're so right. And part of the diversity of female personalities, just like there's diverse male personalities, you know, is, Is another. That's a good thing, that's not a bad thing. It's not a negative if you have more of a leadership personality or, you know, if you prefer to work more in the background or whatever. Like, those are, those are, those can be strengths, especially like within the church or whatever. Those are not liabilities. Those are actually really good things. And we, to our peril, we believe the lie that that makes us a man or that, you know, that it's something to be, to be squelched and, and squandered rather than, than used for, for good purposes and good ends. So let's pivot to the Fox variant case because this was a huge piece of news that came out in the past couple of weeks here. So, Chloe, why don't you just give us a quick rundown of what happened in this lawsuit, because I'm sure it's very exciting for you and there are so many classic trans components that are present here. And so it's just, it's really just an awesome, awesome win for detransitioners specifically and for people who just care about biology and who care about children and who care about preserving the dignity of bodies and minds that are struggling with these things. So if you can just break down the case for us, that would be great.
- [28:00]
B
So this case is incredible for so many different reasons. And I actually, I didn't know nobody, the public didn't actually know that this case was going on until she had her win just a few weeks ago. And so she had a very similar experience to me. She was a child when her doctors in New York started experimenting on her, started telling her the lie that she was a male and then telling her mother that the only way that she could survive into adulthood was by going down this process. So the, the case was primarily focused on a, on harm caused by the double mastectomy that she was given at just 16 years old, as well as a psychological harm to her mother by being told that it was life or it was, it was either death or transition and a lack of informed consent by admission as well as emotional manipulation. And she ended up having the very first win for a detransitioner lawsuit in New York of all places, in a very, one of the, one of the most, I think one of the most liberal counties in the U.S. actually, which is a complete miracle. She won about $2 million, which I frankly, for the damage, the lifelong damage that comes from going through this process and the irreversibility of it, that is not nearly enough. No, no amount of money ever would be enough. But I think it bodes very well for the detransitioner movement for the future of the law going, going forward on these cases. And I think that it's going to encourage a lot more detransitioners and people who have been harmed to not just speak out, but also to try to seek justice for themselves in the court system, which has been such a difficult battle over the years. I've had, I sued my, my own doctors when I was 18 years old and it's been about almost, it's been almost four years and the case has just been been moving so slowly because my own doctors have been trying to do everything. Kaiser has been doing everything they can to try and get my, my case thrown out or get into an abiding arbitration. And there have just been so many cases over the years that have been thrown out completely and failed because there's really no precedent on this issue for even the most skilled of lawyers to be able to advocate for their, for detransitioners. But now this gives us a very clear cut case of harm being taken, accountability for. And for that, for that reason I see a lot more success in Legal Avenue moving forward. And this is going to be one of the biggest things that's going to take down the industry.
- [30:53]
A
Yeah, absolutely. It's so exciting. It really energizes me to think about what's possible now because of this. So I mean, I know there are a lot of similarities between your specific detransitioner experience and hers and also so many other classic trans components here. I mean, reading through her case, it's like she had childhood trauma via Divorce and custody battles, plus other underlying mental health issues. She was a minor who was pushed into irreversible surgeries. Her parents were also emotionally blackmailed with. Do you want a live son or a dead daughter? Like, all of these things. And then having deep regret. Like, this is a very classic collection of. Of components here that you really see in so many of these cases. And so that's a cool aspect of it because it's so relatable and so similar to these other cases. But I'm curious, with your lawsuit and this lawsuit, what is the same about the legal approach and what is different? And should this change the way that lawyers of detransitioners, should it change the way they go about advocating for their clients legally?
- [32:08]
B
So I think that some of the biggest. The biggest differences in our cases were that she. I think her lawyers were alleging that the standard of care specifically around transitioning was violated in her case. Okay. And it was focused on the mastectomy rather than the. The social transition and the. The other procedures that she had. I'm actually, I'm not too sure as to whether she's had hormones or, or puberty blockers before that or what age that happened. But my case is a lot more comprehensive. It's focused on the standards of care of medicine in general being violated, especially the. The tenet of medicine to. To do. To do no harm and damage for damage from all of. All of the procedures that I. That I went through, as well as. As fraud. Because I firmly believe that the entire basis of this treatment is completely fraudulent. It's not only a violation of the tenets of medicine itself, it's a complete lie on its face, because no, nobody, no, nobody can change sex. It is something that is immutable. No amount of surgeries, no amount of. No amount of drugs will ever change this simple fact of life that you are either always male or female. And I think that if we really want to take down this industry, we have to attack it on all fronts and we have to call out every single fault for what it is.
- [33:45]
A
So what's the status of your lawsuit now? And do you think that this outcome changes your lawsuit or, you know, will change what approach you take or anything like that? Or are you just kind of still waiting to see where it ends up?
- [33:59]
B
So I am actually set to go to court, which I am very excited about, because it's been years of just constant, like, battles back and forth of Kaiser trying to appeal my case, trying to get it thrown out, trying to get us into arbitration. But I want to go to court. I want Kaiser to be exposed for everything that they have done, for all of the abuses that they are doing under the name of gender affirming care. And I think that with this recent win, it is looking like I'm my case and these other cases are going to be going to be set up for success moving forward.
- [34:41]
A
Awesome. Glenn Stanton wrote a piece for us at the Federalist just to put this kind of all in perspective and all in context. He wrote that Benjamin Ryan, who's an independent reporter, has documented that there are 27 other D transitioner lawsuits that have been filed to date. And this was, I mean, potentially more have been filed now since then. Because with this victory, you know, maybe people are filing more, but you're talking about dozens of cases that are already in the works filed by detransitioners and their lawyers. But then you also have the Manhattan institute researched between 2017 and 2023, they found a conservative minimum of 5,200 US teen girls that had their breasts amputated, thinking that that would be a solution to their transgender, you know, gender, their transgender delusion. There's belief that they were. That they were men. That's a very conservative estimate. So you're talking, you only have a couple dozen cases currently. You have thousands of people who have been harmed by this. And we know the rates of detransition are fairly high, especially, you know, because so much of the research follows these cases for only a brief period of time. Well down the road, trans regret is pretty strong. And so, I mean, we might see hundreds, if not thousands more cases. And so this just is crazy to have this outcome. And it clearly is striking the fear into the medical establishment because now we have seen multiple medical groups come out and quickly, days later, days after this verdict, they backtracked. So you had the American Society of Plastic Surgeons and the American Medical association both came out just days later with statements basically saying that they recommend delaying so called gender affirming care until adulthood. And that's a huge reversal. That's a huge change from previous statements from them. And you know what, the wpath, like general quote unquote medical community has been saying about these things for years. That was a pretty fast turnaround. So that inspires a lot of confidence in the direction that we're headed here. And I assume you feel the same way.
- [36:55]
B
Absolutely. With how quickly those organizations announced that change in recommendations, it makes me wonder if it might have been in response to that case or just to the cultural change in general. I think has been a big part of that. It's really disappointing that it's taken this long considering that this movement that I'm a part of, pretty much everybody on an individual level who is publicly facing and speaking out about this has received incredible backlash for doing so. Some of us even being threatened with death, with violence, even being assaulted at events or while we're out and about, just for the sole fact that we're speaking to the truth and we're challenging this ideology and this industry head on. But the thing that's been frustrating for years was hearing, oh well, all these major organizations, these major medical organizations, they don't back what you're saying. So there's no, it's been very difficult to get any institutional backing on our, on our concerns and about, while talking about the harms of this, even as people who have either directly been harmed by this, the transitioners or the clinicians who have had to see this in their practice, or parents and families who have experienced this with their own kids. But to finally have an organization saying this, at least even just the surgeries need to stop in children under the age of 19 and hopefully they'll continue, continue pushing for older and older with the, the drugs as well.
- [38:29]
A
Yes, because as you said, it's not, it's not really enough. It's a great start, but it's not enough of an admission because like your case demonstrates, you cannot change your sex. So this is not a question of are we doing it to minors or are we doing it to adults? Either way, it's a fraud because you're completely correct like that. You actually can't change that. So it's junk science, it's completely fake. And the, you know, these organizations should be changing these, these position statements across the board, not just for minors, but it's still clearly a step in the right direction. It's also just crazy because, you know, this stuff is really an 8020 issue. You know, like transing kids is not what the majority of Americans want. You know, most people are not actually on board with that type of radical, quote, unquote medicine. But of course that wasn't going to change the medical tide because all of the financial incentives before somebody's going to win a case are all still, they still stack up behind sending kids down this pipeline because it's a cash cow. If you can set up a kid with puberty blockers and then wrong sex hormones and then surgeries and then, you know, follow up maintenance surgeries, you have created a patient for life and you will continue to get paid tons of money from both them and insurance companies forever. There is no end to that, because then even if they later detransition, that's more money in your pocket from those surgeries. So it just. It never stops. And so even if the majority of the country is like, yeah, that's junk science, they don't care, because if they're not getting successful lawsuits that where they have to pay out, it is a cash cow. And so it's so cool to see the financial incentives potentially finally matching up with these social incentives, because the country is on a different path than the medical establishment, and maybe we can. We can bring those a little closer together here with lawsuits like this one.
- [40:24]
B
Right. I mean, there are some physicians, some surgeons whose careers even rely on this industry. So there's an incentive to keep. To keep moving, keep moving forward with it. But beyond. Beyond money, which, of course, is one of the single biggest drivers here of. Of this practice, there's also the ideological component of this. This is how. I mean, the entire medical profession right now, even doctors who are not, like, directly engaging with transgender patients or with administering them either the hormones or surgeries or referring them out, they're trained to affirm patients and to basically just give in to whatever their patient identify as and whatever. Whatever they. They want. And a lot of these. These. These doctors, these people within the medical profession are so far removed from the rest of our culture. They're just doing night and day with patients and with the medical industry and what they're being told within it, and they might not even realize that they're within ideological bubble that they're operating.
- [41:26]
A
Yep. And we've seen this with so many other things besides transgender, quote, unquote, medicine. We saw it with COVID clearly where things were being pushed that were completely out of step with where the scientific evidence was leading. We've seen it with commitments to, quote, unquote, equity in health care, where we. We give people treatment based on the color of their skin instead of their actual need or. Or their condition. We see it with. When you get asked for your pronouns on hospital paperwork, and it's like, is this an establishment of science or is this an establishment of politics? Because I'm a little bit confused here because I am biologically a woman, so why are you asking me about my pronouns on my hospital intake forms? That does not inspire confidence about how your commitment to science. Yes.
- [42:11]
B
Like, yes, I didn't go to the doctor for almost five years because of the. There was an element of trauma in experiencing what I did. And just an overall distrust of the medical profession. And unfortunately, it wasn't entirely misplaced or irrational. I had this fear of being hurt again. And obviously what happened to me was not going to ever happen again, and I would make absolute sure of that. But I just. There's. There's no. I've seen just how science has been thrown completely out of the medical profession and how I've been treated after the fact, even after, like, trying desperately to get my doctors to be on the same page as me, even in just, like, getting my. My records changed back to female and my. My sex marker, my name changed back. I still get letters to this day. And I have to laugh because it's so hilariously ridiculous, referring to me as Mr. As Leo, as a man. And I. The first. The first appointment I had with the doctor, every single. Pretty much every single fear I had was confirmed. I was first. The very first question I was asked was about my pronouns, about my gender identity. And then once I gave a little bit of my history because I was seeing a new doctor, his first response was to try and refer me to a gender clinic, even though I was desperately telling him, no, no, no, I do not want to go back. Please stop asking me these questions. I do not. I just want to get checkups and be treated for the issues that this has caused me.
- [43:47]
A
Oh, my goodness. He tried to re. Refer you to a gender clinic after your detransition?
- [43:52]
B
Yes.
- [43:54]
A
That is crazy.
- [43:56]
B
And, well, I. In a way, I can't blame him, because there is no acknowledgement of detransition in the medical system.
- [44:02]
A
System.
- [44:03]
B
There's no. The word detransition isn't even written in any standards anywhere. And there just is no. There's no system that doctors can. Can help us with. There's no standards. There's no billing codes. So they're kind of at a loss of what to actually do when they're dealing with a patient who either regrets this or has been harmed by it and how to deal with those complications.
- [44:23]
A
Which just goes to show that the term sex or gender, transgender experimentation is the correct term way to refer to these things, because it's all experiments. Like, you know, we can hear that these are reversible or whatnot, but they don't have a plan to reverse it. You know, this is not. This is not within their medical lexicon. You know, as you said about detransition, like, this is not. This is not something that they ever plan to reverse or that they ever see reversed. You know, as far as they're concerned in the medical literature and such. So, yeah, that's insane. So let's, let's move on because we could talk about this all day, but I have a little bit more that I want to get to here. So let's talk about the latest example of trans violence, because now we have another trans story in the news, which is the horrific shooting out of Canada at Tumblr Ridge School. In that case, we had a trans identifying shooter who killed eight other people and then himself. And of course, the media instantly refer to this person as a female using. Using she and her pronouns, and just straight up calling the shooter female without any qualifier, without even using the euphemism trans woman. I mean, literally just calling this male female. Horrific situation. Terribly sad. We've seen way too many instances of this now. And of course, this is not in the United States, but it's our next door neighbor. And I just. You see these horrible stories, and it's enraging and it's terribly sad. And it just leaves you feeling like, what are we supposed to do about this? Because it really does seem to be an epidemic of trans violence. You know, we saw with the Covenant School shooting. That's not the only instance. I mean, there's been a handful since then here in the States. I'm curious, you know, aside from winning these lawsuits and just sort of turning the tide on the trans craze to go back the other way, what else can we do about this? Because grabbing guns is not going to fix the problem. Like, this is clearly an issue of the mind and a spiritual issue, I would say.
- [46:37]
B
Absolutely.
- [46:38]
A
But also, just based on your own experience and what it was like living with synthetic hormones in your body. Like, do you think there's a role that synthetic hormones play in this beyond just the mental health issues? Like, like, what do you think about this whole thing?
- [46:55]
B
I'm glad you asked, because I feel like that's a very important part of the discussion that's often left out, even by the. The media and by the. By officials who are dealing with these cases. And there absolutely is a huge uptick in the violence that is happening that is being perpetrated by people from within the transgender community in different ways, but especially these. These mass shootings have been happening since. I think it goes as far back as. As 2019. But the very last thing that we should be doing is obscuring details around these cases and lying to not just these people's faces about who they are, but to the public about the reality of their Sex and the role that this ideology and their mental health issues are playing in this, that it's that ignorance of reality and avoiding the truth that is actually arguably furthering the violence. It's obfuscating information. It's making it difficult for, for those who are grieving and those who want to know more and want to investigate. But it also is making it on an individual level, very confusing for these individuals who already are very confused and they're trying to navigate their, their lives and not being given what they, what they really need in terms of, of, of psychological treatments. But I mean, we don't know. I, I think, I don't believe that the shooter was on hormones. He made a post on, on social media about being on a wait list at some point for hormones and not receiving them. But that information is something that, that's one of the things that commonly is obscured about these, these cases, whether or not what drugs these people are on, the clinical background of these shooters and how far in they are into transitioning. But I feel like this wave of violence that we're seeing unfold is just one more reason on top of the millions other reasons that we need to stop pushing young people down this path because it's not just a danger to them individually and their bodies, it's now potentially putting the public in danger by enabling their fantasies, by enabling these psychotic and these narcissistic tendencies rather than actually helping them.
- [49:17]
A
Yeah, well, I do think, I mean, I don't know the answer to this. And like you said, if we can't even get a straight answer from the media on whether the sex of the shooter was male or female, we're not going to get answers about their medical records, about whether they were on hormones. That's just not going to happen. You know, we can, we can, we can speculate based on whether they identify as trans or whatnot, but, but we won't know. And so, you know, we can, we can look at all of the things that are not going to work as solutions. But just to turn this to a brighter note, I don't think it's just a mental health crisis, although it is that. I think it is also a spiritual crisis. And you see so many things here where the transgender delusion is a lie. It is a lie from the enemy. It is a complete denial of the designed order of humanity. It is turning biological truths, time tested truths about who we were created to be on their head. And basically also, ultimately, I mean, it goes back to the first lie in the Garden of Eden about that you will be like gods if you do this. And, you know, at the end of the day, transgender experimentation is trying to be God. It's changing who you are. It's basically believing that you, as an individual, can play God and change your physical embodiment to be something else. And that is all sad and scary stuff, but it's also met with a beautiful, glorious truth, which is that there can be redemption, and there is actually a solution to this. And it is Christianity. It is Christ. It is. There is freedom that can be found in surrendering to the God who made you. And, you know, finding that there actually has been. There's a penalty, but there's also a price that has been paid. And Christ died to save us from ourselves and to save us from the lies of the enemies and to save us from our sin. And as I was reading through your bio, I know that conversion to Christianity is a. Is a part of your story, and I love that because it's arguably the most important part of your story. And so I want to find out from you how exactly you became a Christian, and then also how that changed going to a Christian counselor or a Christian therapist, and the kind of light and hope that was brought to you in that setting versus the clinical setting.
- [51:40]
B
Well, I appreciate you asking that, because I also feel like that is the most important part of not just my testimony, but my life. And it's a blessing that I want to spread with other young people as much as I possibly can. What my own story has taught me, and also witnessing this wave of violence that's been happening and just the corruption of our institutions and the uphill battle of dealing with that over the years, is that we live in a world that no longer values the truth. That is what all this confusion is downstream of. And it's not just biological truth. It's not just scientific and easily observable truth that we're dealing with that is being ignored. It is the truth. I think that a country that is not led by God, that is not led by a belief in Christ, is going to come further and further and further away from the value of the truth. And we witnessed that happening with not just transgenderism, but with all these ideologies infecting our government, infecting our institutions, in fact, in our daily lives. And it was very confusing trying to reorient myself not just in my own life after I detransitioned, but also in trying to go against the tide and challenge the transgender institution. It wasn't until I started to explore my faith that I realized that was the only way that I possibly could orient myself again and to guard myself in this battle. I was raised pretty much agnostic, if not atheist. And for most of my life I didn't believe in not necessarily a God, but I didn't. My idea of who God really was was very disorganized. I thought when I was in the throes of my transition that maybe there was a God who created me, but he created me for wrath, for destruction, and to be destroyed and to suffer. It wasn't until after I detransitioned and when I had people evangelizing to me, telling me, no, you're not broken. This is not where your story ends. You can use all of this for the greater good and God is going to use these experiences to make you better. That I started to be able to challenge myself and also to heal in the things that had happened for me. And now I know that even in the most painful parts of my life, it was all part of a plan to get me to where I am now. And I would not be the young woman who I am today without any of it. And that's the West. That's the lesson that I want every young person, anybody really who is listening to my story, who may be struggling with giants of their own, take away from this, that you are not broken. No matter what's taken away from you, no matter what parts of your life you're losing forever, you can be made anew in Christ and you can turn to him, you can turn to His Word and you can turn to his grace into prayer to help you through whatever you may going, you may be going through, whether it's the everyday struggles of life or if you're grieving something, or you're going through massive change that seems insurmountable.
- [55:16]
A
Amen. Hallelujah. What a beautiful picture of God's grace and just the transformative power of the gospel in your life. It makes me think of the story of Joseph and just at the end of his story where he says that what man intended for evil, God intended for good. And just to think about all of the people in your story who intended so much evil. I'm talking obviously of course, about the medical professionals and the doctors who should have helped you but instead harmed you. And you know, if not for your story of transition and detransition, where all of these people meant evil, you may never have found Christ. And it's through that difficult path that man meant for evil that God actually used for good. And just what a beautiful story of redemption. And it makes me really excited about how many other people that we will see who have, who have walked this road of suffering, who will find Christ because of it. And so your story is just so inspiring in that regard, Chloe. And I've loved to hear, to hear about all of it. So I'm excited about that. I'm also just so excited and so encouraged by this lawsuit and I'm excited to see where your lawsuit goes from here. I think there are brighter things ahead and I cannot wait to see, can't wait to see what comes of it. So thank you so much for being on the Kylie cast today. Everybody should go follow Chloe on social media. She does awesome work. And yeah, we'll be following your case from afar. So thanks again so much.
- [56:45]
B
Thank you so much for having me.
- [56:52]
A
Thank you so much for tuning in to this week's episode of the Kylie Cast. If you haven't done so already, please like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Leave us a five star review. I will be back next week with more. So until then, just remember the truth hurts, but it won't kill you. Sa.