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Federalist Radio Hour
‘The Kylee Cast’ feat. Dr. Carrie Gress, Ep. 33: Can You Really Be A Christian And A Feminist?
01:00:07
On this episode of “The Kylee Cast,” Dr. Carrie Gress joins Federalist Managing Editor Kylee Griswold to dissect her new book Something Wicked: Why Feminism Can’t Be Fused With Christianity. Kylee and Carrie dive into the evil origins of even...
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- [00:00]
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- [01:00]
Kylie Griswold
Hi everybody and welcome to the Kylie Cast. I'm Kylie Griswold, Managing Editor at the Federalist. Please like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We have a new channel specifically for the Kylie Cast on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. So if you are only subscribed to the Federalist Radio Hour or your're Wrong with Molly Hemingway and David Harsanyi, two of our other great Federalist podcasts, be sure to subscribe to the Kylie Cast as well so you never miss an episode. Leave us a five star review. It is truly one of the easiest and best ways you can help out the show. And even better yet, if you are just listening to the show, go check out the full video version on my personal YouTube channel or the Federalist Channel on Rumble and then of course like and subscribe there too. If you'd like to email the show, you can do so at radio the federalist.com I would love to hear from you today. I am so excited to welcome to the show Dr. Cary Gress. Carrie is a wife, a homeschooling mother of five. She's a senior contributor to the Federalist and she is the founder and editor of Theology of Home and she's the author of 10 books, most recently Something why Feminism Can't Be Fused with Christianity. It is such a good read and I feel at this point compelled to offer a trigger warning for our conversation because it's such a hot topic. Carrie and I dive into the origins of feminism and why first wave feminism is actually just as destructive as the subsequent waves, as well as what feminism even is and how it's harmed Christian marriages and how women who are Christians but have been seduced by feminism can get out of the feminism cult and reclaim a biblical worldview of womanhood. That and so much more. Without further ado, please welcome to the show Carrie Gress. Keri Gress, it is so great to have you on the Kylie cast. Thank you for joining me today.
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Carrie Gress
Thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here.
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Kylie Griswold
I have been chomping at the bit to talk to you about this book ever since I heard about it. And then after reading about it, even more so. It's such an important topic and I just can't wait for more people to read it and to learn about it. So why don't. Before we dive into the themes of the book, why don't you just tell listeners a little bit about yourself and how you came to write this book?
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Carrie Gress
Yeah. So I am a mother five. I have a PhD in philosophy. And when I was doing that PhD, I said out loud to God that I would never write on women's issues. And here we are 11 books in, and I think most of them have been related to women's issues. So.
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Kylie Griswold
God, you should never do that.
- [03:54]
Carrie Gress
No, don't do it. It always backfires. The same thing happened, actually, when I met my husband. I met him and thought, the po woman that has to marry this guy and ended up marrying him. So God has a great sense of humor. But in any event, yeah, So I. About 10 years ago, I wrote my first book, kind of just really starting to scrutinize feminism. And that book came out in 2018. It was called the Anti Mary Exposed Rescuing the Culture from Toxic Femininity. And you know, really at that point, nobody was talking about this about feminism as an issue. And so it's kind of an outlier. And, you know, but the book did well and I had all these people say, can you write a book that would be more secular friendly or Protestant friendly? And, you know, I was totally up for that because I thought that the themes were very universal and were not specific just to Catholics. And so I then wrote another book called the End of Woman, and that came out with Regnery in 2023. And that was. Was great. It's sort of a. It did well. And it was just kind of a philosophical walk through, you know, the foundations of feminism and how we got from feminism to the trans movement and kind of all the pieces in between. And then finally I realized, you know, I haven't, like, put the nail in the coffin yet. Haven't made it clear that feminism and Christianity really are from totally different DNA. They have different, you know, roots entirely. And we just, as Christians need to stop trying to make the two work, because it's. It's. It's creating a lot of damage. It's creating a lot of confusion more than anything. And I think that Christians in general just don't know, like, what's good and what's bad and what parts we can keep and what parts we can't. And so that was really the goal with this book, was to just finally add a lot of clarity and just say, look, these are two very distinct, you know, philosophical groups. Feminism was actually set up to undermine and to. To get rid of Christianity. And, you know, we needed to stop trying to make the two work together.
- [05:53]
Kylie Griswold
Yes. In the book, you include so much fascinating history. And I was especially captivated by your section on first wave feminism. It kind of took me back, mentally to a big project I did in college. It was college. It was my capstone project on the transgender revolution. And that was before it became quite the flashpoint that it is now. But in my research, I mean, it took me directly back to second wave feminism. I mean, there's a direct line between Betty Friedan and, you know, Bella Abzug and their work and Simone de Beauvoir and the trans movement and the way that they talked about, you know, being beyond gender and not being born a woman, but becoming one and all these things. But I think so. So that made sense to me, like, why second wave feminism was so evil and so subversive. But I think subconsciously I believed the lie that first wave feminism was okay, because it. Here are these noble goals. This was necessary, but second wave feminism wasn't. And, you know, diving especially into that first few chapters of your book, where you really get into the nasty origins of first wave feminism, really opened my eyes even more to some of these. Some of these issues. So can you. Can you just kind. 30,000 foot view? Because I think we could talk about this for a full hour, but just kind of why the first wave was just as bad as the second and third wave.
- [07:12]
Carrie Gress
Yeah. So the first wave, I bought the lie as well. And actually, when I wrote my book the End of Woman, I thought, okay, I've got two days to research the first wave. I'll just find some nice quotes and then I'll move back to the second wave. And you know, I'm still in the first wave. I haven't been able to leave it yet. It's just there's so, so much and I keep digging and finding more and, and that for, for this book, for something wicked. What really became so super abundantly clear was just this, the idea of how much the first wave was really built on disordered theological ideas. Mary Wollstonecraft actually was. She had, you know, migrated in her faith from Anglicanism to then dissenting Christian and then on to Unitarianism, which doesn't believe in the Trinity, it doesn't believe in the divinity of Christ. And she actually, you know, makes the point that any kind of male mediator, and she's here talking about both pastors and priests and Jesus himself is a block or an obstacle to a woman's potential to have a relationship or be in relationship with God. So she makes that very clear. And then you can see as the movement moves forward, it jumps across the pond over back to the United States. But all of those early first wave feminists from Lucretia Mott and Fanny Wright's, another one that people are coming to know. Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony, Matilda Gage, on and on. Almost all of them were, both became Unitarian. So they left, you know, Calvinism and, and Baptism Baptists to anything mainline. They left for Unitarianism. And then they also, most of them also dabbled in the occult and were very involved in what was called spiritualism, which was, you know, seances and knocking on tables and all kinds of things. And that's actually where Elizabeth Cady Stanton had the idea for the Seneca Falls Convention in the first place, was at one of those spirit tables, which is now in the Smithsonian here in Washington. So yeah, it's, it's pretty amazing when you start looking at it. But the, but Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony in particular, you know, their newspaper was called the Revolution and they very specifically were targeting Christianity. And they wanted, they believed that it was a tool being used by men to enslave women. And they compared women's lives to those of slaves. And you know, they're very explicit about this, this kind of overlap which, you know, is audacious when you actually at who these women were and how privileged they were. You know, they're making this effort to compare themselves to slaves before the Civil War. It's, you know, it's really amazing. So that, that's kind of the, the, the nest of it or you know, the essence of It. And then even things like, you know, suffrage was important, but it was just more. What was more. What seemed seemingly was more important was this idea of transforming the understanding of womanhood into something very masculine. Trying to help women believe that they would be happier the more they became like men. And, you know, that they had to just get rid of the shackles of Christianity and that then they would be liberated from it. So that. That's kind of the big picture, I think.
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Kylie Griswold
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. There's so much to unpack in what you just said. And I mean, of course, as we've seen since then, there is no limiting principle to becoming more like men. I mean, you know, first it's. It's unshackling yourself. Then it's, you know, then we see the introduction of the pill, like, way later. Of course, that makes women more like. And then abortion makes women more like men. And then, oh, we. You can just actually become a man. Actually. You're not, you're not actually confined to your womanhood. I mean, there is no logical endpoint. It's so destructive. I also think it's so interesting that so many of these first wave feminists did have religious roots, that they did actually have some theological understanding or backing, because it strikes me that this was almost, you know, early deconstructionism. And it's so, so interesting because, you know, all over Instagram, and maybe it's just my algorithm or the type of people that I follow, but it seems to me that there is a huge overlap. The Venn diagram might just be mostly a circle here of women who have bought into feminism and women who have deconstructed from Christianity. And of course, there are still a lot of women who, who claim to be Christians. And I are, I think, faithful Christians who don't know that they've been deceived by feminism and would also identify as feminist. But I think there's also a large segment of women who do have. Who do have a religious background but were maybe poorly catechized, whether they're Catholic or Protestant and have fallen for feminism. And that feminism has deconstructed the weak faith that they did have. And it's so. It's just interesting you even see this in the first wave because really that's what happened to, to the architects of feminism right now.
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Carrie Gress
And that was one of the things that was really fascinating to see was just these loops that, you know, these cycles that, that go. That we go through. And so very explicitly I was seeing, you know, what were happening among Protestants in particular, kind of this engagement with the occult, whether it's enneagrams or, you know, just manifesting and various things that, that are popping up. All of those things happened in the 1800s. And I think, you know, the first thing we have to do in understanding this is sort of get rid of this and the sense that we have of this very Victorian prim and proper era. But really recognize that there was something very radical going on during this period. And even Percy Shelley, who is, you know, seems like totally random person, but he' you know, English poet who created this woman named Cithna that became the model for what feminism became. She's these three pieces. One of them was Contempt for Men, which, which came from Shelley's mother in law, Mary Wollstonecraft. From his father in law, he got the idea of, of what they called free love or the end of monogamy. His father in law, William Godwin, thought that. That he thought that marriage was a kind of slavery. And he later went on to influence Marx significantly. And then Shelley added his own fascination with. But he also said, you know, way back then, this is like early 1800s, said we, you know, eventually we'll get rid of this construct called gender or sexuality. I'm not exactly sure what language he used, but that was kind of the idea was that he saw that this was something that we just needed to rid ourselves of. And so it's interesting to see, you know, he's saying this well over 200 years ago and now if you look at feminism today, what is it? It's contempt for men, it's promiscuity, and it's the occult. So not everybody obviously is involved in all three of those things, but you can see how once you are, those things really do enslave you into this kind of, you know, this, this new slavery, I think, of use and denigration that we really are seeing around us now. You know, it's very hard to uphold the order dignity of a person when those pieces are really at play and that the isolation that comes with them and whatnot. So, yes, absolutely amazing to see the patterns, I think.
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Kylie Griswold
Yeah. And just that those seeds were present from the very beginning again, that this wasn't something that started as an innocent thing that kind of snowballed out of control. It's this. This was the, this was the point the whole time. Yes. And there's nothing new, nothing new under the sun here. This is a total sidebar. But I also found it so interesting as I was reading this first wave history, because I took literature classes in college, specifically British literature. And it was so funny to see that there's just these two parallel tracks. Like, I knew of a lot of these characters, but I didn't know of them as being so adjacent to first wave feminism. I just knew of their writing, you know, the show, Shelley's and all of them, and. And then seeing how they fit into Mary Wollenstone, I don't know how to say her namecraft was just very fascinating. I'm like, oh, wow, there's. There's way more to probe here than I had any idea when I was. When I was superficially studying these authors in college. So. Fascinating.
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Carrie Gress
Yeah, no, I think. Right.
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Kylie Griswold
Maybe we should have started here. But. But can you. How do you define feminism? Because I know everybody has a different idea of what it is. So. So what do you think it is?
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Carrie Gress
So I think feminism, what we're not talking about is just this general idea that feminism is about helping women. I think this has been kind of a blob definition that feminism is trying to use and has really stuck under the radar because of it. You know, it says, well, if you don't like feminism, you must not want to help women. Or, you know, it's evaded scrutiny. And I think very specifically looking at what's happened with feminism and the movement and this. The whole trajectory, feminism really is about creating autonomy for women, for. For women as something of an idol. That. That's really the goal of a woman's life, is to be autonomous from career. I mean, from husbands and children, to have her own career and sort of basically dictate the way that her life looks, that she's. She's sort of the one behind the controls instead of being deeply embedded in relationships and whatnot. And then in addition to that, I have all these other. And this is really where the book came from, kind of this idea of recognizing that feminism is this shadow church is. Because I think feminism has mimics a lot of the things that you see in Christianity. So it has this. You know, we have an object of worship in Christianity, which is God. And feminism has this idol of. Of woman's autonomy. And then from there you go to, you know, the different commandments that it's got, which are. I just discussed the contempt for men, the. The promiscuity and the involvement in the occult. It's got some sacrament, which is abortion. It's got its own form of evangelization, which is certainly, you know, broken. Women break other people around them, and we see that in spades. And Then it becomes much more easy, easy to become a feminist because of the bitterness and whatnot that's sown in it and then another extraneous piece of it, but I think is really important is the, the emotional level. Christianity has faith, hope and love and feminism, contempt, rage and envy are really the emotions that it really is trying to promote in women. And that's certainly not by accident either. That comes. It goes back to the early 1890s when the socialists realized that women are a lot more politically active and engaged when they're angry. So anyway, that's kind of the fabric of it, and that's what I talk about in the book itself are all these different pieces that you see that kind of line up, up as. As imitating Christianity.
- [17:41]
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- [18:11]
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- [18:43]
Kylie Griswold
Yeah, I think it is interesting that, you know, this kind of blob definition is so easy to get behind. I think that's why so many, so many women fall for it is. Oh, it's just because to oppose feminism is just to oppose womankind. If you believe the modern conception of the definition of feminism. And it is just so interesting that the feminists have not only defined their own movement wrongly, but they've also defined what being an anti feminist is wrongly as well. They kind of hold all the definitions and it's hard because the definitions are so vague to oppose feminism because again, it's such a flowery, vague definition. And yeah, hard to Oppose something that sounds so noble and so, so wonderful.
- [19:28]
Carrie Gress
Yeah, well, and then it adds on the, you know, you, certain people aren't allowed to talk about it. Like men can't talk about it because not women. And then I'm not supposed to talk about it because I have a PhD. You know, it sort of becomes like this mommy dearest relationship, like you've benefited from feminism, therefore we can't talk about it. You know, which nobody would accept that when it comes to any kind of religion, like, oh, you've benefited from Christianity, therefore you can' scrutinize it like that. That's ridiculous. You know, no one, no secular person and no one who would consider themselves a feminist would actually allow that to happen in that case. So why is it that somehow it's. This is protected entity, right? Look behind the curtain at what's really going on behind it and see, you know, is this really good? And I think it's because so much of it is really bad that it's, you know, it's worked hard to hide it from, from the general population.
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Kylie Griswold
You touched on autonomy when you talked about the three commandments of feminism. Can you, in the book you wr Autonomy is both a lie and an idol. Can you explain what you mean by that?
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Carrie Gress
Yeah. So autonomy is fascinating because one of the things that you see, you know, first way feminism, for all of its faults, you've got all these women who are with the best of intention trying to protect other women. The, the irony is of course, that all the efforts that they've made to try to protect women have not actually worked. So for example, if you look at who Mary Wollstonecraft is trying to protect, it's her sister and her best friend and the relationships they, they revol involved in. We still see the exact same kind of abuse in women, only it's much, much worse. Especially if you include, you know, human trafficking and all the other realities, awful realities that we're seeing today in the world. So there's this effort at trying to sort of bubble wrap women that if we don't have these relationships with men or with children and we're just really focused on what our, our own, you know, career and focus, then we're not, we're not going to be vulnerable. But of course that's the l, you're still vulnerable. It just comes in different stages. And you know, this is part of being human is, is that idea of being in relationship with others and loving others and self gift. And you know, the tragedy is of course that so many women buy into this. And then it's not until they're, you know, 50s, 60s that they realize like, okay, this lie about my fertility is, was a total lie and now I'm alone and this is not at all what I wanted my, my life to look like. So I think that's the big lie. But the thing that's so compelling about it is, you know, these, this idea of auton is appealing because you don't have to wait for a man to ask you on a date. You don't have to wait for someone to propose to you. You know, it's. Everything is really about your own control and power and what it is that you want. And the career certainly is the goal of, you know, this, this elusive goal of having this incredible career and you know, being very fulfilled by that. But I think obviously there are problems with that as an idol because that's never going to satisfy you, you know, especially because it becomes, we become so insular and self gazing and we know through Christianity that, that we become, that joy really comes from self gift and giving of ourselves to others and uniting ourselves with God's will instead of it being all our will. So I think that those are, you know, all of these things are problematic because it's, it's, it's questing after something that's a much lower good than what it is that we're meant to really be, be seeking. And sadly, of course our economic system is, is really built around this. You know, you've got medical schools and law schools promoting the idea of freezing eggs and you know, women that you can just put off motherhood until you're ready for it. And you know, these things too are just laden with lies because of course women's fertility isn't a switch that can be flipped on and off at will, but you know, has its path and course and you know, and levels off, you know, steeply after a certain age. So yeah, I think that's issue is just trying to see past this, that, that this really is about, you know, being seduced into an idea of what it is that's best for us instead of what's fundamentally really is the best thing for women.
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Kylie Griswold
Yeah, it's interesting that I. Okay, so I wonder if that is why IVF specifically can be so seductive for Christians or for people who would carry the, you know, label of pro life, but are, you know, deceived into thinking that IVF is pro life rather than what it is, which is, you know, part of big fertility. It's actually horrible for, for women it's deadly for children because you're not fully scorning motherhood. You are just trying to have your cake and eat it too. It's like, it's like trying to value human life, trying to value motherhood, but also trying to live out the lie of autonomy and the idol of autonomy, of I can have my career, I can pursue the things that I want to pursue. I'm not shackled by my fertility. I'm shackled by, you know, a single motherhood or a stay at home motherhood, life in the home. But I can, I can still hold these two things that are kind of contradictory of motherhood and you know, the feminist ideal simultaneously while also convincing myself IVF is a pro life and Christian position. And I hadn't thought of that till just now, but it really seems like maybe one way that the enemy can deceive women into thinking that they are can be both feminists and Christians and also pro life while supporting these practices that are inherently neither Christian nor pro life.
- [25:02]
Carrie Gress
Yeah, no, I think that's an amazing point because you just connected a lot of really interesting dots that I hadn't really thought about. But I think that what you've just described is what we're seeing especially among conservative feminists and Catholic feminists in particular, is kind of this cake and eat it too attitude, where it can be, I can still do all these things that I want to do and without having to give anything up. And the reality is that that's, that's the big problem is that we have been seduced and told and, and even the whole culture reflects this, this idea of, of having it all and being able to do it all. And there's no sacrifice at any point. But we know that, you know, order, beauty, love, all of these things are actually built on sacrifice. And you know, obviously this is the beauty of a woman having many seasons of her life and you know, being able to learn which season needs to, what needs to happen at what season, that's really important. But instead we've, we've prioritized kind of this goal of like the, the career and still wanting to be the stay at home mom. But it's in the end of it. And, and actually I wrote a piece about this for, for the Federalist was is this idea of kind of this girl math of you can't do both a full time mom and the full time career without some something giving. And sadly what we have seen give are the children. And I think IVF is just another, you know, piece, you know, even earlier, at an earlier stage of where we are expecting children to sort of accommodate us instead of, of the other way around. So yeah, I really like the way that you articulated that.
- [26:32]
Kylie Griswold
The self sacrifice point is such a good, a good point too because I think one thing that I've heard from self described feminist Christians is just this idea of Jesus as a liberator. And you know, of course in some ways we know that that is true in the sense that he frees us from our sins, like he liberates us in some ways, but just, just sort of going back to the, back to the basics of what we know about the character of Christ as, as not somebody who liberates us to self actualization, but rather to self denial. Like he is the epitome of self sacrifice. That's the whole point of the Gospel is that he came to actually lay down his life for the good of others. And just this idea that, that the feminist ideal of I can have it all and I can determine my destiny and you know, I, I can live out my dream even if I. It requires putting my family and other people around me on the back burner. It's so anti the character of Christ and we can use, we can, you know, co opt fe language and sort of try to marry it to, to Jesus speak, but it just doesn't work because that's just not who the Savior is. And so it's so important to help get women out of these patterns of thinking that are just really, really anti. Biblical.
- [27:42]
Carrie Gress
Yeah, no, I think that is such a great point too. You know, one of the books that I use for my research was this book called Satanic Feminism. And when I first read this book, it's a, it's published by Oxford University Press. Very academic. It was a, it was a dissertation. And I, for whatever reason, I don't know why I never looked at the subtitle of the book. And I just assumed that this guy was against feminism because with a name like Satanic Feminism you would think that who would be for that? But the subtitle of the book is basically How Lucifer Liberated Women. That's the subtitle of the book. And so it's really interesting because he's of course using. It's really an awful book. But the research is amazing and was incredibly helpful, especially my book, the End of Woman. But that's the amazing thing is just this. What does that word liberate mean? And what, what's being. What, what is it playing out? And so if you go back to the first wave what they mean by liberation is freedom from husband and Christianity. That's exactly what they mean. They don't mean, you know, that this sort of contorted way of, you know, no more sacrificing. They mean the exact opposite of that. And that really is, I think, what, what you're right, Christ calls us to is this life of, of following him, of emptying ourselves out for others. And that's really where, where we're going to find joy and happiness and we're going to find, you know, just the beauty of complementarity of male and female. Going back to Genesis, which is a whole other layer of things that have been distorted by the feminists in the first wave in particular is this idea of, of who Eve was and what she represented. So anyway, yeah, I think these are really important terms that we need to, you know, understand deeply who the person of Christ was and what it is that, that we're meant to follow instead of just having this expectation that, you know, we really. It's. It's an entitlement, it's a sense of entitlement that, that we're somehow owed things instead of offering things.
- [29:39]
Kylie Griswold
Yeah.
- [29:39]
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- [29:43]
Howie Mandel
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- [30:10]
Kylie Griswold
You bring up Genesis and that was one thing that struck me. I think you bring it up multiple times in the book about just the Satan's tactic of going after the woman and how that worked in the garden and how that has just continued throughout all time that, that I forget how you phrase it. Maybe you can, you can articulate it better. But just the, the way that you can crumble so many things by like captivating women and catching them in the sin and the way that it's just destroyed everyone, not just women.
- [30:37]
Carrie Gress
Right, right. Yeah. No, I think that's exactly right. There's something about womanhood where men will follow what it is that women do. We see that with Eve. And so you better get your, your women right. And this is, you know, the tragedy of what feminism has done is because it has silenced men so broadly. You know, it's just amazing to hear the cricket say. Then there's so many men, you know, I hear privately all the time who don't like feminism, who don't want feminism, and there are certainly a few that are speaking up, and the voices are getting louder and stronger and more numerous, thanks be to God. But the. For, you know, how many. We're in like the sixth decade of this, and it's, it's taken a very long time, I think, for that realization. And, you know, we had to get to this point where people. It's just so obvious to see what the damage is. And so people are feeling a lot more comfortable, I think, talking up or speaking up about it. But absolutely. I think that Fulton Sheen had this amazing line about how you can measure a culture by the level of its women. Because women are typically meant to be something that men aspire to be worthy of. So when you have women who are not aspiring to anything worthy, in fact, it's very difficult to even define what a good woman is in the culture today. There's nothing for them to aspire to. There's nothing for them to really have to become. Become better men in order to be attractive. And, and, you know, something that that woman feels like is. Is worth attaching herself to. And so I think this is one of the reasons why we're seeing so many problems. You know, the, the constant complaint, there's no men out there. Well, what have we done with women? You know, it sort of feels like in many respects, sort of this, this race to the bottom of, like, which sex can behave worse instead of the. The opposite, which actually has sort of this internal motivation for people. And when you, when you're really working with human nature as it ought to be worked with.
- [32:34]
Kylie Griswold
Right. Well, and it's not just about character and virtue, but also about function. Like, you don't need men to be providers when women become the providers and women are poor substitutes for it. But still, it's. When we have, when women have supplanted men in function, then you also don't need men to step up to do what they were designed to do. And so it's just, you know, the fault of not being able to. To find good men in many ways. Ways, probably in most ways falls at the feet of women. And we really need to own up to that.
- [33:03]
Carrie Gress
Well, and I think that's. That's right in terms of even looking at what. Where the big change happened, and it certainly happened in the 60s and 70s with free love, you know, promiscuity becoming something to which women really aspire because they thought that would make them more like men. That's the big change that I think took place and that we haven't really paid enough attention to, to really realizing like the incredible amount of damage that that is being done by that. But the amazing thing is, is that women aren't generally able to be autonomous and take care of all the things that they want. It usually ends up being the state that takes over the role of the man. And that's the real tragedy because that's when you are really trapped because we come, we become so dependent on the state and of course the state then has to grow larger and then you've got men who are, who are not responsible for anyone or anything. So yeah, it's amazing to see, you know, there's no longer just sort of two people here. There's. The state has become its own entity such that the phrase bureaugamy is being used. You know, women are now married to the state and not to men.
- [34:10]
Kylie Griswold
That is such a good point. And it's not even hidden anymore. I mean this has been an explicit goal of the government since, I mean, probably before Barack Obama. But Life of Julia comes to mind of this idea that there's this woman who is fulfilled in every way and she doesn't have a husband and you know, big brother is her husband and he takes care of her from cradle to grave. And it's. Oh, it's just so damaging. And I don't understand, I don't understand the allure. Like why is this desirable for women? You know, because, because you're not autonomous, you are not self sufficient, you're not independent, you are still cared for by an abusive husband because the state, the state will never love you back.
- [34:57]
Carrie Gress
They will never love you back as much as you give to it. And I, and I. That's a really fundamental point though is that women's vulnerability hasn't gone away, it's just been masked or somehow we've been fed something, a line about it that it's not true, or somehow we don't believe that we're vulnerable even though we're still married to the state. It's this incredible amount of confusion about it. And then if you look at the flip side though, what happens when you have men who provide.
- [35:27]
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- [35:57]
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- [36:28]
Carrie Gress
and, you know, understand their role as, as husbands and fathers. And it's in that space that suddenly a woman's vulnerability is no longer, you know, liability, it's actually an asset because that's when she really is allowed to become the person that she's meant to be, which is a life giver. Women are meant to be life givers, whether we're biological mothers or spiritual mothers. You know, all of these different aspects in which women mother others. When you, when you are cared for and protected and love, then suddenly all of that can bloom in this incredibly beautiful and, and fruitful way in our lives where, you know, children are, know that they're loved and can grow up to be the children that they're meant to be instead of, you know, passed around from, you know, organization to organization or person to person. And, and then the marriage itself obviously becomes stronger as well. So I, I think that we, it, it's exciting to start thinking about how do we, we as conservatives start creating better models of what is available to us when we actually follow human nature and really understand the complementarity of male and female and then the incredible gifts that men have and then what women have and even that baseline idea, like when you tell a woman that she's a mother and she understands that to a core, even if she has no children. We see it certainly in little girls, this innate desire to mother. And we help her do that in a way that's ordered and not driven by her emotions or her ego or whatnot. Suddenly she can do amazing things no matter where she's at, if she's in the workplace, or if she really is, you know, she does have her own children, or if she ends up, you know, working in, in a job that requires her to be really compassionate, then, then she looks like a much different person and she can really get, get through life in a different way. Instead of always searching for something, you know, becomes about her becoming more of who she's meant to be instead of grasping at things that are supposed to just be pleasurable or tantalizing or the next adventure, the next wardrobe or whatnot. There's a real core and a depth there, and I think that's what we're missing today. And the idea of good woman is that core of what it means to take care and love and treasure and be loyal to others.
- [38:49]
Kylie Griswold
That's such an important point. I've been thinking a lot about this idea of misplaced mothering because this, this desire to mother is inherent in women, even if we do fight against our biology. But I've been thinking about it a lot and now that we've been talking about the state and kind of being married to the state, it strikes me that it's not just a one way relationship there either, where the state becomes the husband for the woman, but also it in many ways becomes her, the object of her mothering. Where, you know, we see this a lot with progressive political activism where women, women will murder their own children in the womb, but then use their mothering instinct to go protest for, you know, children in another country that they don't know and will never meet. And you know, I think of, you know, the, the lies from the media about the, the five year old used as bait by ICE or whatnot, and the number of women who came out of the woodwork to mother this boy in the sense of caring for him and you know, advocating for his rights and all these things. It's like instincts that are good, but they should be channeled toward your own children. And you know, I mean, then, then you run into all kinds of media propaganda. I mean, there's many, many elements of this that have nothing to do with, with feminism specifically. But, but it just strikes me that it's actually a circular relationship where you care for the, the state cares for the woman, and then the woman will, will use her mothering instinct to, to sort of facilitate more, more of this from the state. And, and it's just, it's so crazy. You cannot deny this biological urge to mother. And I had a really awesome conversation last week with Chloe Cole on the podcast. She, she fell for the trans lie as a child and you know, was living as a man, quote unquote for a while and has detransitioned. And she talks about how one of the things that kind of brought snapped her back to reality was being in class and learning about pregnancy and breastfeeding. And it's striking her that like, I'm never going to get to do this, but she's wired to do this and she wants to do this. And how powerful just that like women can spend their whole lives fighting against this urge, but it's still there. And maybe it manifests in ugly ways but, but it doesn't go away just because you, you know, fall for abortion and all these other anti woman, anti life things. The urge to mother is still present.
- [41:06]
Carrie Gress
Yeah, no, I think that's, that's really important. And you know, obviously the pet craze has been a huge, huge avenue through which, yes, women are still mothering, you know, now that, especially now that you see dogs and strollers and you know, it's just amazing how far it's gone. But yeah, it is that, that misplaced compassion, that idea of the woman who works for PETA, but she's aborted her own child. And I think, you know, one of the ways that I've started talking about it and thinking about it specifically is just to really, you know, ask that question like how low local is your love or the people that you love? Can you touch them, can you see them? Can they see your face? Because that's really what, where women excel and you know, are so gifted because we're so embodied to be a sense of home for others, certainly in a very real sense as far as, as having a child. It's, you know, a woman is the, is the first home for every human. And then, you know, it only extends out of there in terms of the amount of time that you, you know, you just spend holding a baby, looking at a baby, holding your children, looking, you know, being dialed into them in a very real and, and rich way. And instead we've, we've said, oh, that's not really that important. You need to be, you know, doing big things, you know, saving the universe or saving the world by doing something with people that you have, you know, you probably never even meet. So I think you're exactly right about that real inversion that's, that's happening and continues to happen and be sold to us as a.
- [42:39]
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- [42:43]
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- [43:10]
Kylie Griswold
Let's, let's go back to the three commandments of feminism because one thing in the book that really struck me that I've been kind of noodling on is how these three commandments of feminism, which I think you said are promiscuity. What is it? Autonomy and the occult. Is that correct?
- [43:27]
Carrie Gress
Promiscuity, Contempt for men and women. The occult.
- [43:30]
Kylie Griswold
Oh, yes. Okay. And how they directly attack the Trinity, which is especially interesting in light of the Unitarian beliefs of the early feminists. But can you, can you kind of explain how each of these commandments does directly attack the. The three persons of the Trinity?
- [43:46]
Carrie Gress
Yeah. So this was a fascinating insight that I actually got from my husband because he was trying to find like a quick way for me to describe all of this because it gets. Comes up over and over and over again and again. It comes from Percy Shelley in the early 1800s. So yeah, when you're obviously, if you have contempt for men, it's going to be very hard to have a direct relationship with God the Father because you're not going to trust men. This, the second part would be promiscuity. Well, if you're promiscuous, you're not honoring your body, which is the temple of the Holy Spirit. And then the third way would be obviously the, the occult, which is, is really a violation of the authority of Christ as king and savior of the world. Instead, you're really buying into something that is supposed to be, you know, at odds with his. His power and his kingdom. So I think it's, it's fascinating to see like, that those are the three things because they may get incredibly difficult to then re. Establish. Re establish a relationship with God because the fact that you've gone after these very specific ways that we're embodied. Sou schools that, you know, are, are able to be in relationship with the Trinity. Yeah, I think it's a, it's really, it's kind of devastating when you start seeing just the. How targeted Christianity has been by the feminists from. In that, you know, very. The, the mechanics, not just the general idea, but in the very mechanics of what it means to, to believe in the Trinity.
- [45:19]
Kylie Griswold
Yes. Can you explain a little bit more about the occult aspect of this? Because, um, you know, if, again, if my Instagram is any indication, there are a lot of self described feminist Christian women who are not, you know, blatantly into this witchy occult stuff. They're just posting girl empowerment, you know, memes and think that, that their career is more fulfilling than motherhood. And then, you know, by, by all accounts, it stops there. So what would you say to women who, who maybe would self identify as both feminists and Christians who say, yeah, this doesn't apply to me because I'm not, I'm not into tarot cards and I don't do palm readings and I don't dabble in anything of the occult?
- [46:02]
Carrie Gress
Yeah, well, I mean, I think that you can sort of bracket out the occult in a certain respect because I think there are so many women that do believe that. And actually that was kind of one of the things that, you know, I didn't. I've tried to tone down discussion of that certainly in the last book, the End of Woman, because I just thought this isn't really as important as these other philosophical ide, the way in which we've been brainwashed. And this is why in the End of Woman two, I talk a lot about the communist connection and this idea of the prioritization of work. And so I think that's actually the bigger piece is, you know, Betty Friedan. We know there's a ton of documentation. There's actually a book written by her friend David Horowitz, I think is his name, about Betty Friedan and her connection with communism and this idea of getting women out of the home to do productive work because the communists had decided that motherhood was not productive work. So she uses all these really amazing psychological tactics. Things like, you know, women's fear of missing out and you know, again, the denigration of the home. She calls it the comfortable concentration camp. So she's trying to denigrate that to get women out into the workforce so that, to promote the communist revolution. So I think this is, you know, the problem isn't so much for Christians necessarily on the occult level. It is exactly what you described. It's on the work level and this level of autonomous economy and the prioritization of, of work over the, the much more important elements of faith and family. So I think that that's, you know, that. So for the woman that you've just described, that's really the key issue because in a certain respect it's, it's bought in sort of through the back door communist principles which are obviously not in any way congruent with Christianity either. This idea of, you know, constantly, even that, that language of empowerment, you know, that that sort of implies that women were not in power and, and gets back to that language of victimhood or victimization where women are automatically victims because we're female and men are the victimizers, the oppressor oppressors because they're male, which is absolutely, you know, the language of, of Marx that's been twisted through critical theory and whatnot. So I think there's a lot more going on than people realize that, that it's, you know, that there's, there, it's kind of language that's very loaded with a lot of communist and Marxist concepts that, that we sort of buy into at our peril. And I, and I think that's really what we're seeing. You know, so many of the problems in the culture today is because we've become very communist by focusing on work and the denigration of the home. And we've really allowed this to proliferate because we don't understand the importance of the home. So I think that's hopefully, hopefully that speaks a little bit more directly to that. And you know, aside from the occult, like even if you're not involved with the occult, if you're still involved in this language where women are victims and therefore entitled to something and men are therefore oppressors and not entitled to something, you know, this is where you get into DEI and all kinds of issues about merit and the way in which you structure society such that the family can fundamentally flourish instead of what we're seeing today.
- [49:18]
Kylie Griswold
Right, right. Yeah, well, and I guess, you know, even if you're not into astrology or even if you're not practicing any of these, you know, woohoo kind of out there things, occult things that you can't get away from. The origins of feminism being rooted in the occult. And you also, it makes me think of the garden again like, you know, when, when Adam and Eve sin and after the fall, you know, know they're told, or Eve is told, your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you. And just this like this sort of friction between the sexes and like the way that women try to dominate men and try to take over men's roles and I mean that is just, that's been ongoing since the garden and you know, it's a sin. And so in that way it is demonic. I mean, it's from the enemy. It's not. It's not Christian. And so even if it's cold, it's still demonic.
- [50:09]
Carrie Gress
I think that's such a great point too. And, you know, I. I think that whole ele, really, I mean, feminism fundamentally is based on power and control. And so if. If there's a situation where a woman, you know, fundamentally will says, I will not serve, even though we know that. That God has set up the hierarchy, set up the. The whole Christian order in a certain respect. No, this isn't. Isn't tyranny. This isn't some sort of, like, men have authority. You know, every man has authority over every woman. You know, there.
- [50:40]
Kylie Griswold
There are.
- [50:41]
Carrie Gress
There's a. After 2,000 years, we have a very beautiful understanding of what this means and that this order that God has created and it's. And I think that that's one of the things that gets so tiresome is just sort of the sense of like, okay, this is not what I, you know, I have to explain over and over again what I don't mean. You know, I don't mean that men are tyrants and, you know, on and on. So I think that that's really where we have a lot of work to do, is just in terms of helping people understand the subtlety of it and also, also the fear that women have in terms of. Of first of all, recognizing that we're not meant to be just like another mother to our. Our husbands, that. That there's a real order there. And I think that, you know, one of the things that I think is incredibly attractive in men, and having been around a lot of seminarians and men who are going to be priests, you always see there's women around them, and some of it's because they're comfortable with them, but there's also this element of. There's something very attractive about men who really want to hear God's heart. They really are men. After pursuing, with, you know, making every sacrifice to really know what God wants. And I think that that's an important thing that we have to communicate to men and to women, too, is just that understanding of we've got to stop fudging this and allowing women just to take over, because it's too. It's a lot easier to do that than to fight and vice versa, that we have to start really holding people accountable for what it is that their responsibilities are. And for women to stop taking over what men are meant to do, and, you know, vice versa. We Don't. The last thing we need are, you know, submissive men. So I think that even, you know, having further conversations about this can be incredibly helpful and fruitful, even just in our daily lives with friends and, you know, Bible studies or. And looking at the way other people have lived this well can be really instructive and help us sort of fill out that moral imagination of what it, how this is supposed to look instead of always faulting, defaulting back into this, you know, oh, she's a doormat or she's the empowered overlord of a woman. You know, we have.
- [52:53]
Kylie Griswold
Right.
- [52:53]
Carrie Gress
There's a lot more beauty and nuance in the middle of that that I think we need to start looking at more carefully and with, you know, a lot more precision.
- [53:02]
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- [53:06]
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- [53:33]
Kylie Griswold
I think your, your most recent answer kind of gets to this, but how do you think that feminism specifically has harmed Christian marriages? And maybe sort of a sister question to that is, how can husbands help their wives not to fall into the traps of feminism? Because even women who are married can so often get sucked into these algorithms or sucked into group chats or, you know, wine mom culture or whatever it is where it's. It's the norm to gossip about your husband and it's the norm to tell each other that, you know, you can have it all. And, you know, I mean, there's so much bad messaging that comes from woman to woman and even to married women who have children. So not only how has how has feminism harmed Christian marriages, but also how can husbands help their wives not to be swept into this, short of telling them to, you know, encouraging them to log off and get off social media, because I think that's a start.
- [54:31]
Carrie Gress
But.
- [54:32]
Kylie Griswold
But how else?
- [54:33]
Carrie Gress
Yeah, no, that's really huge. I mean, I think part of that is just first really understanding just how manipulated we are on an emotional level and bombarded by this kind of content all the time, being really picky about who it is that you follow what it is that you watch how you spend your time. That's one thing, obviously filling up, you know, having a regular regime of. Of prayer and of silence. I think those are incredibly important. And really understanding just how to kind of process your emotions, like, especially when you feel provoked and angry about something, like, okay, what's really behind that? What. Who's. Where's that coming from? Is that the voice of God? You know, learning how to discern. Those are. Those are really important things. And I think women, you know, we need to get back to this place where we unders. Where we become steady. There's something so compelling about women that are steady under pressure or they're steady under, you know, when the gossip starts. There's. There's something really powerful about the woman that doesn't say anything, you know, so that is. The other piece is really under. Understanding female steadiness. We have the vice of. We have an attraction to the vice of both envy and. And distraction. And that means that we. The. The opposing virtue is not envy, not comparing ourselves to others, but also being able to sort of be peaceful in the midst of turmoil. So I think that those are important pieces. Obviously, our husbands can help us dramatically in terms of, you know, couples praying together, families praying together, reading the Bible together, you know, making your life focused more around Christ. And, you know, what we know builds up culture and just having frank conversations. You know, one of the things that I know as a. As a woman that I've really come to value is do people know that they can disagree with me? And this is something that I cannot say in every area of my life. I'm good at this, yet, I'm sorry, working on this a lot, because I think all of us are really recovering feminists in so many respects because it's been so ingrained in us. But I think that's an important thing, too, is do I have the humility just to listen and to, you know, let other people express their views and take them on and change, you know, accordingly. So that's important. And then I think more than anything, though, it goes back to that idea of what's local, Loving what is local. Loving your colleagues the best you can, being present to them, meeting their needs, loving your children, loving your spouse, prioritizing those needs. And, you know, it's amazing how even countercultural it is to say we should really prioritize the needs of our husbands. And yet, you know, what could be more basic? Who's closer to you, you know, and even just recognizing what happens when we love others better. They're able to love us better. And just that the goodness that then kind of come springs, you know, the fruit. And the fruit that springs from that is really important too. So anyway, I. I could probably keep talking about this in terms of specifics, but I think. I think, you know, these aren't hard things. It's just a matter of kind of unplugging from what it is that we've grown used to and really recognizing the way those things are manipulating us and using us for ends that are not at all Christian.
- [57:54]
Kylie Griswold
Yes, yes, I'm sure there's a lot of overlap here, but just a slightly different angle on kind of the same question. Let's say there's a woman listening to this who is thinking, I'm a Christian and I would have identified as a feminist, but I'm tracking with you. I'm seeing that is this. This is not. This is not really compatible. What are some concrete steps that she can take to exit? This sort of, you know, because it's. Feminism truly is like the water that women swim in. It's. It's so pervasive. It. It colors everything. So what are some concrete steps women can take to sort of deprogram their minds or retrain their minds? You know, taking every thought captive to obey Christ, to get away from. From these practices that are inherently anti man, anti God, whatever, and to. To really, like, get back and be informed in their womanhood by a biblical worldview.
- [58:47]
Carrie Gress
Yeah. Well, one of the things I do in the book, and of course, you know, my first suggestion is read the. Read the book, but something wicked. But one of the things I do in the book is look at really the role of. Of men in a. In a positive way. I think this is something that's been completely absent in our commercials are devaluing men, denigrating men, making them look like idiots. You know, TV shows on and on, but really to start seeing what it is. What are the. What is the value that comes with a patriarchy and hierarchy? And, you know, one of the things that's amazing is just to see, like, the way the military functions. And we value this in corporate America because women are. Are in that hierarchy. So we understand how it works. And in the military, obviously. But if you can just see the way. Way that men mobilizing and moving out in smaller groups, but every person, every man in that group is. Has an important role to play. And I think this is one of the best gifts that men have, the women don't always have, is that they don't toss People aside, in. In those dynamics because they realize everybody has something to contribute. So understanding that's important, understanding. Even the role that men play in society, like every matriarchy that has ever existed, ends up being ghettoized and losing its wealth. Because men and fathers are the ones who are like, they're the guardians of like a hydraulic dam. They hold in the gifts of the children until the children are ready to use those gifts, like their sexuality. Or they're the ones that are saying, okay, it's time for you to leave the nest. You know, you're ready. You know, especially sons showing them, you know, there were all those rites of passage that used to happen, giving them responsibility, giving them experiences where they could actually fail that they had to rise to the occasion to succeed in. So I think, you know, aside from the things that I've already said about social media and our emotions, I think the biggest thing is to really start seeing. Because the patriarchy is very invisible in our culture. We don't value it until things go wrong or until, you know, my own case, when I. We had an addition built on our home, and I was like, it's all men here. Where are the women who are putting, you know, doing the roof? And I think they showed up when they did the painting and then when they cleaned up at the end. But otherwise it was all. All men pouring the concrete and whatnot. So I. I think that could be really worthwhile thing to do. And, you know, the other thing too is really understand the way in which men love women. This is something I've never been able to do well, because it requires. I could probably do it with poetry, but I think, you know, when the way men talk about women, when they don't know that they're listening, for example, poetry or music lyrics, you get a real sense, I think, of what it is that. That men value about women. And it's usually not because she's bossy, nagging, and, you know, in a pantsuit. Like there's something much more tender and frail. And there's something about the way in which women feel like, allow men to feel that they're home and they're safe and they're cared for, you know, that. That those are important things. I think for us to realize that instead of sort of feeling like we need to check these boxes of, you know, our own prowess and skill set, we need to really look at what is it that we are. How is it that we're saving others around us and being in relationship in a healthy way with the men in our lives. I think that's another important aspect of it.
- [62:10]
Kylie Griswold
Yes, that's such a good point about the music and the poetry and just that men and women's differences is actually what makes things work. I think the platitude, you know, diversity, diversity of our diversity is our strength is such garbage until it comes to, until it comes to marriage. And then I think sometimes that's exactly right. That's what makes, that's what makes things work is, is that we're different. So everybody should read Carrie's new book something Wicked. You can get it on Amazon, but Carrie, I imagine there are better places people could buy it. Where can they buy it?
- [62:41]
Carrie Gress
Yeah, if people want a signed copy, you can get it at My own website, theologyofhome.com or the the publisher sophiainstitute.org is Sophia Institute publisher. So great.
- [62:54]
Kylie Griswold
And where can people follow you? Where can they find you?
- [62:56]
Carrie Gress
Best place is Instagram or theology of home.com and I also have my own website, carriegress.com awesome.
- [63:04]
Kylie Griswold
Carrie, I had such an awesome time talking to you. Thank you for writing this book. Thank you for making time to chat with me about it. I'm so excited for all the people who are going to buy the book now because they will get to hear all the great messaging as well. So thanks so much for your time.
- [63:17]
Carrie Gress
Thank you. My pleasure.
- [63:23]
Kylie Griswold
Thank you so much for tuning in to this week's episode of the Kylie Cast. If you haven't done so already, please like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Leave us a five star review and of course go pick up a copy of Carrie's new book something why Feminism Can't Be Fused with Christianity. It's such an excellent read. It's a resource I will definitely be returning to time and time again. I will be back next week with more. So until then, just remember the truth hurts, but it won't kill you.
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