‘The Kylee Cast’ feat. Kirk Cameron, Ep. 27: Why He Left Behind 'Left Behind' And Traditional Views On Hell

Summary

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Federalist Radio Hour – The Kylee Cast, Ep. 27

Guest: Kirk Cameron
Host: Kylie Griswold
Date: February 5, 2026
Main Theme:
Kirk Cameron discusses his personal and spiritual journey, his evolving views on Hollywood, family, and Christian faith, and the theological debates that recently embroiled him in controversy—most notably, the nature of hell and his departure from traditional evangelical eschatology.

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Overview

In this episode, Kylie Griswold interviews Kirk Cameron—a former teen actor and well-known Christian advocate. The discussion spans Cameron’s early Hollywood career, his conversion to Christianity, responses to family and adoption, and recent controversies, especially his public questioning of the traditional doctrine of hell (“Hellgate”). The conversation delves deeply into theological nuance, prioritizing respect and intellectual openness even amidst disagreement on “secondary” matters within Christian doctrine.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Kirk Cameron's Hollywood Background & Conversion

[03:10–05:41]

• Kirk began acting as a child, not out of personal ambition but at his mother's encouragement.
• Rose to fame as Mike Seaver on Growing Pains (1980s).
• His faith journey began at 18, spurred by curiosity and philosophical questioning (“It would require more faith to hang on to my atheism than to believe in an intelligent designer.” – Kirk, 04:15).
• Cameron was not raised in a committed Christian household.
• Conversion deeply affected his life and career decisions, steering him away from mainstream Hollywood content.

2. Navigating Faith and Hollywood

[05:41–07:36]

• Faith “incompatible” with some aspects of Hollywood, but not all—many Hollywood stories are, at their core, “stealing from the Bible’s storylines.”
• Modern technology allows for a democratization of storytelling:

  “Anybody with a camera can make their own documentary or film anywhere in the world and get it distributed on YouTube … So, did I leave Hollywood? Kind of, but kind of not.” (Kirk, 07:23)

3. Fatherhood, Family, and Adoption

[08:14–12:26]

• Discusses meeting wife Chelsea on Growing Pains, adopting and raising six children:

  “Some of them are adopted. We can’t remember which ones—they’re all ours.” (Kirk, 08:27)

• Sees marriage and family as “ground zero for advancing the good in the world.”
• Remarks on changing roles and God's unique plans, stressing that singleness or childlessness does not diminish worth or fruitfulness:

  “Jesus was not married. Jesus did not have children. And yet he was the person who impacted the world like no one else ever.” (Kirk, 11:14)

4. Rethinking ‘Left Behind’ and Eschatology

[12:51–17:09]

• Cameron reflects on his eschatological transformation post-Left Behind:

  “It's pretty safe to say that I've left behind Left Behind.” (Kirk, 16:12)

• Shares how initial views were shaped by dispensational premillennialism but later encountered alternative perspectives (amillennialism, postmillennialism, preterism, etc.).
• Warns against making secondary issues a source of division:

  “What I don’t like is when people start to divide and call one another heretics over topics … like, what is the nature of the second coming?" (Kirk, 14:59)

• Highlights real-world impact; how eschatology can shape foreign policy, especially concerning Israel.

5. The Christian Mission Amidst Uncertainty

[19:33–25:54]

• Cameron urges a focus on revival and sharing the gospel, not speculating about judgment:

  “I’m not looking for judgment. I’m not looking for war. I’m looking for revival …” (Kirk, 19:53)

• Discusses whether the world is improving or worsening from a biblical perspective, noting historical cycles of “revival at the worst times you could possibly imagine.”
• Emphasizes urgency and anticipation for Christ’s return, while recognizing the mystery surrounding prophetic fulfillment.

6. “Hellgate”—The Debate on the Nature of Hell

[25:55–45:50]

• Explains the controversy from a recent episode (“Hellgate”) wherein Cameron and his son discussed the doctrine of hell and annihilationism:

  “He asked me, ‘Dad, what actually happens in hell when someone dies? Are they tormented forever … or are they annihilated?’” (Kirk, 26:33)

• Cameron faced significant criticism, even being branded a heretic by some church leaders.
• Insists on respectful intellectual engagement and scriptural analysis rather than outrage:

  “I didn’t expect the cancel culture and the smackdown … to come from the church.” (Kirk, 29:57)

• Challenges listeners to deeply study scriptural arguments for both eternal conscious torment and annihilationism, and to avoid clipping or misrepresenting nuanced theological discussions.
• Points out that, for many nonbelievers, the doctrine of hell is the “primary stumbling block” to faith:

  “For my neighbor, what is often the Mount Everest he cannot climb is the idea of a God who … torments people forever and ever in hell.” (Kirk, 31:38)

• Notes the importance of not letting emotional discomfort drive scriptural interpretation:

  “It would be a terrible idea to begin to try to make scripture accommodate our preferences.” (Kirk, 36:50)

• Admits his own discomfort with all views on hell but values rigorous and charitable conversation:

  “Everything bothers me about hell …” (Kirk, 39:45)

• Reiterates that whatever the view, the solution is the gospel.

7. Final Thoughts: Children’s Books & Community Initiatives

[48:51–50:12]

• Briefly discusses current and future projects, especially See You at the Library Day and Christian children’s books.
• Announces forthcoming events and invites listeners to host library stops via bravebooks.com.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On faith and acting:
  “I thought being an actor was cool … But I don’t think [Hollywood] has to be pitted against faith and goodness and moral virtue.”
  — Kirk Cameron, 05:52

• On the role of family:
  “Being a husband and being a father … it’s a great privilege and it’s a sacred duty. … It’s also a school where you have to learn how to die to yourself.”
  — Kirk Cameron, 09:17

• On evolving beyond Left Behind:
  “I’ve left behind Left Behind, sure.”
  — Kirk Cameron, 16:12

• On the impact of eschatology:
  “This is like real. And it really does impact foreign policy. And we’ve got to think through these things.”
  — Kirk Cameron, 18:11

• On the “Hellgate” controversy:
  “I ended up catching hell for it, pardon the pun … Not only that people had such strong feelings about it, but I didn’t expect the cancel culture and the smackdown … to come from the church.”
  — Kirk Cameron, 26:33, 29:57

• On unity and secondary theological issues:
  “Majoring on the minors … does nothing good for advancing the gospel.”
  — Kylie Griswold, 29:35

• On scriptural exegesis and discomfort:
  “It would be a terrible idea to begin to try to make scripture accommodate our preferences.”
  — Kirk Cameron, 36:50

• On the relationship of justice, mercy, and hell:
  “I don’t see any contradiction in the God of the Bible not showing mercy to the wicked after they have rejected the means of his mercy, which is the gospel.”
  — Kirk Cameron, 47:57

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Hollywood upbringing and faith transformation: [03:10–05:41]
• Faith & Hollywood’s relationship: [05:41–07:36]
• Fatherhood and family as calling: [08:14–12:26]
• Changing theological views post-Left Behind: [12:51–17:09]
• Eschatology and policy implications: [17:09–19:53]
• Mission, urgency, and Christian hope: [19:53–25:54]
• The “Hellgate” controversy explained: [25:55–29:57]
• Hell as a hurdle for nonbelievers: [31:38–36:12]
• Scriptural interpretation amid discomfort: [36:50–39:19]
• Cameron’s candid assessment of all positions on hell: [39:45–42:31]
• Challenging the church to honest discussion on difficult topics: [45:16–47:57]
• Children’s books and future projects: [48:51–50:12]

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Tone & Language

Throughout, both Kylie and Kirk keep the exchange candid, approachable, and intellectually honest. There’s humor (“I caught hell for it, pardon the pun”), empathy, and sober self-reflection. While the topics get weighty and, at times, contentious, the dialogue models charity and careful listening: “I can learn from them … What I do know is that I’ve got today. I want to make the most of the opportunity.” (Kirk, 24:24)

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Takeaway

Whether discussing the nature of hell, the value of Christian family life, or the pitfalls of public controversy, Kirk Cameron advocates for humility, thorough study, and unity within the Christian community—even (and especially) on difficult or hot-button secondary issues.

Most importantly:

“We shouldn’t be afraid of hell. We shouldn’t be afraid of same sex attraction. We shouldn’t be afraid of concerns that people have because the truth is not vulnerable to people’s questions.”
— Kirk Cameron, 36:50

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Further Listening/Resources:

• Watch “Hellgate” via Kirk Cameron’s YouTube for the full roundtable exploration of hell.
• Learn more or host a children’s book event at: bravebooks.com

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Transcript

[Kirk Cameron]

Olivia Culpo here to tell you all.

[Kylie Griswold]

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[Kirk Cameron]

In the app, online and in stores.

[Kylie Griswold]

Hi everybody and welcome to the Kylie Cast. I'm Kylie Griswold, Managing Editor at the Federalist. Please like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We have a new channel specifically for the Kylie cast on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. So if you are only subscribed to the Federalist Radio Hour or you're wrong with Molly Hemingway and David Harsanyi, two of our other great Federalist podcasts, be sure you are subscribed to the Kylie Cast as well so you never miss an episode. Leave us a five star review. It's one of the easiest and best ways you can help out the show. And even better yet, if you're just listening to the show, go check out the full video version on my personal YouTube channel or the Federalist channel on Rumble and then of course like and subscribe there too. If you'd like to email the show, you can do [e-mail] I would love to hear from you today. I am thrilled to welcome to the show Kirk Cameron. You might know Kirk as the teen actor in Growing Pains, or you might know him as the Left behind guy. Or maybe you know him from his videos with Ray Comfort or from his children's books and library tour. No matter what you know him from, he's a really interesting guy. We had a great conversation. We talked about his time in Hollywood, what it was like to become a father, as well as how his views have changed since being the Left behind guy and what you've all been waiting for. The conversation about Hellgate, About Kirk Cameron's views on hell and annihilationism that got him into some hot water recently and broke the Internet, you will see it all here today. You don't want to miss it. So without further ado, please welcome to the show Kirk Cameron. Kirk Cameron, it is such a pleasure to have you on the Kylie cast.

[Kirk Cameron]

Thank you for inviting me. It's a pleasure to be here.

[Kylie Griswold]

So cool to have you joining. It's so funny because people listening or watching might know you from many, many different eras. I first heard about you from my mom's era of Growing Pains and then my familiarity with you started with the Left behind days and Fireproof, actually. And now, of course, you are doing something completely different. So I would love to start back kind of at the very beginning. I would love if you could just fill me in on, like, your Hollywood days, your conversion to Christianity, how that affected your time in Hollywood, and then getting married, leaving Hollywood. What did all of that look like? That's a big question. But if you can just give us kind of the backstory would be great.

[Kirk Cameron]

Let's go back to the 80s, and then we'll go up into the early 2000s. Then we'll come up. So. So I'm not a time traveler. Or am I? Let's see. I never even wanted to be an actor when I was a little kid. I wanted to be a doctor, but my mom had a friend who said, you should go talk to this agent. You live in Hollywood, California. Maybe your kids could be on some McDonald's commercials, save up enough money for college. So we did, and I started working as a little kid and landed the role of Mike Seaver on Growing Pains.

[Kylie Griswold]

So.

[Kirk Cameron]

So Growing Pains was the sitcom in the 1980s that was kind of alongside my sister's show, Full House. Some people have never put those. Connected those dots. Candace Cameron. Kirk. Cameron were brother and sister.

[Kylie Griswold]

Right.

[Kirk Cameron]

And now we're growing up and married. And. Yeah, movies like Left behind, that was after I came to Faith in Christ, and then movies like Fireproof. And so I meet people from different generations who know me. Some kids now know me from Iggy and Mr. Kirk, which is the children's television show I'm doing with Brave Books. And it's kind of like our version of Mr. Rogers neighborhood for this generation's.

[Kylie Griswold]

Families, which we desperately need, by the way. So were you raised in a Christian home but just didn't become a Christian until later, or what did your conversion story look like?

[Kirk Cameron]

I was not raised in a Christian home. I believe that my mom had a love for Jesus ever since she was a little girl, but my dad was not raised in a Christian home. And so it never really took root in our family. And it was when I was about 18 years old, a professing atheist, that I went to a church because a really cute girl invited me and I heard the Gospel. I began asking questions and became persuaded that it would require more faith to hang on to my atheism and believe that God did not exist than it would to believe in an intelligent designer and someone who actually gives some philosophical and moral foundation to believing that anything actually means anything. And so I investigated that along with the resurrection and the Bible and became persuaded that it was true. And I wanted to be a Christian at that point.

[Kylie Griswold]

Amen. Yeah. So did you just find that the Hollywood culture was incompatible with that faith and that's why you moved to more Christian films and then ultimately left the Hollywood scene, or why was that?

[Kirk Cameron]

I think that's a fair analysis. We would look at Hollywood and say, this is not something that is, you know, pumping out biblically driven stories, although that's not actually totally true. So many of the best stories in Hollywood are actually stealing from the Bible's storylines, because those are the stories that resonate most with the human heart, because I think they ultimately reflect the biblical story of heroes and underdogs and against all odds, when all hope seems lost, life comes back from. From death, beauty from ashes kind of a thing. But for me, I thought being an actor was cool. Hollywood is often pitted against faith and goodness and moral virtue, but I don't think it has to be. In fact, I think filmmaking and television and the arts and creativity has been democratized through technology and a breakup of the big studios. And now anybody with a camera can make their own documentary or film anywhere in the world and get it distributed on YouTube. So while I may have left Hollywood proper in Southern California, I now live in Tennessee. I'm still part of an industry of creatives who is trying to turn out truth and goodness and beauty into. In the form of stories and creative projects that are going to bring a little bit more of heaven to earth and shape young people's worldview. So did I leave Hollywood? Kind of, but kind of not.

[Kylie Griswold]

Right. Right. And we saw, of course, a lot of that with your work with Ray Comfort, which I know was very influential. We used to watch your videos with him in school, and it really made us think about a lot of questions about the nature of good and evil and, you know, what the. What the eternal gamble kind of looks like. So those were. Were very influential for me. I know as well. So you have six children. Several. Several of them you welcome through adoption. I know. Can you just tell me what was it like becoming a dad? And what are. What do you think are the biggest things you've learned through fatherhood?

[Kirk Cameron]

Well.

[Kylie Griswold]

It'S a big question. I know.

[Kirk Cameron]

You know, so my wife Chelsea and I, we met on the set of Growing Pains. We were a boyfriend and girlfriend on the show. We've now been married for 35 years. We have raised six children. You're right. Some of them are adopted. We can't remember which ones they're all ours. They adopted us. And now they're grown and they've moved out and they're starting their own families, and we have a granddaughter. So I would say that I've learned that marriage and family is ground zero for advancing the good in the world. And I think we can look to Scripture and see that in the very beginning, God didn't create the federal government. In the very beginning, God created a man and a woman and told them to be fruitful and multiply. And I think that we are the way we are so that we can raise generations of children and through the family, download heaven and distribute it to earth. And so what I've learned as a man is that being a husband and being a father, if God and his goodness and his providence allows us to fill those roles as husbands and wives, mothers and fathers, whether it's adoption or natural birth or whatever, it's a great privilege and it's a sacred duty. And so I want to make the most of every opportunity. You know, family's tricky. Family's difficult. It's also a school where you have to learn how to die to yourself. You know, if you don't learn how to forgive and how to be selfless, your marriage probably won't survive. And if you don't, you know, if you're not driven to your knees by the end of the day as a parent, broken and in prayer, you're probably not doing it right because it's difficult, but it's wonderful. It's. It's the best thing in the whole world. And I think that's how God is advancing his kingdom here on earth is primarily through the instrument of the family.

[Kylie Griswold]

Well, and of course, we know of the importance of family from Scripture. Like, it's. It's very much a part of our Christian worldview. But even if you're not a Christian, you can see that this is just self evidently true. I mean, Brad Wilcox at the Institute for Family Studies and many others have documented the phenomenon of even the happiness among adults who are married with children versus those who are not. There's just this. This component of self giving that is clearly what we were designed for. Even if you fight that within your own life like it's. It's so obvious in the world around us. What would you identify?

[Kirk Cameron]

Jump in real quick if you hope you don't mind. I just want to say that there are people out there who would love to have children, who would love to meet their person and get marri. Just not had that opportunity. Right. And God Bless you. God has very unique purposes and plans, I believe, for every single one of us. Jesus was not married. Jesus did not have children. And yet he was the person who impacted the world like no one else ever. And so there are exceptions and there are rules, but I think our culture has downgraded marriage and family and children so much, and we do that at our own peril. And so I just want to say that. That God knows exactly what he's doing, and he's got you exactly where he wants you.

[Kylie Griswold]

Yeah. Amen. Well, this is just a shameless plug for our listeners and viewers to go back and watch the recent interview that I did with Lee Fitzpatrick Sneed. She wrote a book recently called Infertile but Fruitful, and she tells the story of her and her husband's infertility journey. And at the end of that journey, she never did get a pregnancy, but they. They did become parents through adoption. But through every part of her story, even before they had children, is still fruitfulness. And it's just so evident in every part of her life and in her marriage. And. And even if. Even if she were not married, God has fruitful plans for people who. Who are not yet or will never be even fruitful if they desire it.

[Kirk Cameron]

Absolutely.

[Kylie Griswold]

We.

[Kirk Cameron]

We could go on and on. Right. I mean, the Apostle Paul had said as much that there are different concerns and responsibilities and cares that you have when you're married that you don't have when you're single. And I believe frees you up to be able to do things that married people and family folks just would not be doing because they have other responsibilities and we need all of us.

[Kylie Griswold]

Exactly. Let's go back to left behind for a minute. I'd love to just know. And this is another big question, but I'd love to know how your personal eschatological views have changed since you're left behind days.

[Kirk Cameron]

Here we go. You know. You know, I just. I just. I'm just getting over the. The scorching after talking about the subject of hell. And you want to get into eschatology.

[Kylie Griswold]

Oh, we're gonna get to hell next. So buckle up. I'm warming you up. Yeah, yeah.

[Kirk Cameron]

Warming me up for hell. No, thanks. So eschatology is another one of those fascinating topics that I don't have. I haven't have it all figured out yet. But what I do find.

[Kylie Griswold]

And we won't. Who does? We haven't gotten there.

[Kirk Cameron]

Well, some of our friends have, I think Vodi Bakam and John MacArthur. They finally. They know the deal because they've gone on to be with the Lord and when they find out that they've disagreed with each other on so many things and they find out the truth from Jesus himself, that's got to be a shock. So I don't think that we can know everything because there's mystery there that I think we need to hold on to as mystery. But eschatology is another one of those fascinating topics. I never thought there was another position beside premillennial dispensationalism left behind. In simple terms that everybody's gonna vanish and Christians are going to disappear and planes, trains and automobiles are going to be crashing with clothes left on the floor, just like you saw in the movies or read in the book. But then you, you discover, oh wow, there's a whole different position called amillennialism. There is classic premillennialism and then there's dispensationalism. There's also post millennialism, there's partial preterism, there's full preterism, there's all sorts of positions about the tribulation, pre trib, mid trib, post trip, pre wrath. There's all these things. And you think, wow, how could this be so confusing? And this is all within the church. This isn't even like the atheist position that says it's all a fairy tale.

[Kylie Griswold]

Right.

[Kirk Cameron]

So I find it fascinating. I love these in house conversations. What I don't like is when people start to divide and call one another heretics over topics like, you know, what is the nature of the second coming and what is the timing of the second coming and how does that relate to, to different aspects of people who have died before us and people who will die in the future. I think scripture gives us a lot of clues, but there is still some mystery there.

[Kylie Griswold]

Yeah, absolutely. And how much we miss out on when we focus when we major on the minors. Not that it doesn't matter because of course the end times do very much matter. But again, until we are part of the cloud of witnesses, we will not know for sure. So yeah, I need to, to major on the majors, I guess. But is it weird?

[Kirk Cameron]

How is that for, how is that for a non answer?

[Kylie Griswold]

Yeah, I noticed that you skirted around that just, just a little bit. Yeah.

[Kirk Cameron]

I'll let the, I'll let the, I'll let the deer out of, out of, out of the woods just a little bit instead of the cow, the cat out of the bag.

[Kylie Griswold]

This is a first on the podcast, by the way.

[Kirk Cameron]

I can't. I can tell you that the more that I've studied church history, the more that I've studied the Scriptures, it's pretty safe to say that I've left behind. Left behind, sure.

[Kylie Griswold]

That's a good answer. That's a better answer than your first one. Yeah, well, and I think, of course there are things that matter so much more than our views on eschatology, but I do think there are flare ups of this that bring it into a little bit of sharper focus. For instance, like when we consider our foreign policy toward Israel and when that is shaped by our views of dispensationalism or not, or you know, things like that where it isn't just a cerebral conversation, it is something that actually bleeds into how we live and how we craft policy and how we, how we. Yeah. How we conduct ourselves in the public square and in private. So. So for those reasons, I do think, you know, there is a level of importance that's worth talking about.

[Kirk Cameron]

Oh, I think you're so right. And to be honest, I never even connected the dots and saw the implications of our view about end times because it's a book, it's a movie, it's a fiction book. Right. And we say, well, that's really going to happen because that's what the Bible says. But that really informs our view of Israel and Israel's all in the news. Israel is, you know, is involved in, in wars and the United States politically is tied in and militarily and financially. And so you go, wow, could this actually result in people going to war, the left behind movies or not? And it's very interesting if you really do a deep dive into it. It's not conspiracy, tin foil hat stuff. This is like real. And it really does impact foreign policy. And we've got to think through these things.

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[Kylie Griswold]

Right, right. Well, and just being sure to be careful about recognizing our calling as Christians, our great commission as Christians to go and make disciples to preach the gospel, to evangelize, and not to look at the end times as we need to usher in this final judgment, because that is not our role, that is not our job.

[Kirk Cameron]

Yes, I agree. You know, I'm not looking for judgment. I'm not looking for war. I'm looking for revival and an opportunity to share the gospel with the lost. And we want. There's a whole, I believe there's millions of people out there who are just waiting to hear the gospel of their salvation and so we should preach it to them.

[Kylie Griswold]

Yes. So would you say, I know we're still skirting a little bit, but would you say that your view is that things are generally getting better or getting worse? Like, do you, do you lean toward post millennialism or not?

[Kirk Cameron]

Well, what I would say is that your view on the future and specifically whether it's getting better or worse, has to be framed with some time markers in place. If you were to go back a thousand years and you said, are things getting better or worse? Well, you could say, wow, things are getting worse. I mean, we're at an age where kings and queens are killing Christians and it looks like it's the end. And then you find out, oh, wait a minute, a reformation is coming and a revival and a great awakening is coming. But you couldn't see that then. And so here we are today where things are much, much better, I believe, than living a thousand years ago or 1500 years ago. I mean, we don't have Christians being thrown to lions in a coliseum or lit on fire and raised up to illuminate nighttime entertainment like they did during the Roman Empire. So things are much better today. We have sermons and churches and books everywhere proclaiming the gospel around the world. Healthcare is better, quality of life is better, people are living longer, all of this kind of stuff. But we're consumed with this idea that because in the 1950s we had leave it to Beaver or our grandparents didn't have to deal with, you know, purple haired, nose ringed women who think that they're men, you know, built like linebackers, that things are just getting worse and it must mean that the Antichrist is coming and the rapture will be here by Tuesday. Well, hold on, like go back to the Roman Empire. Go, go back to the time where, you know, you would get thrown in prison and drowned or beheaded for being a Christian. Much worse, in my opinion. And so I'm all for long term. I don't know how much time we have on this earth. And so I just want to be focused on God's faithfulness and the opportunity that I have to preach the gospel with revival and a great awakening in view. It's happened before at the worst times that you could possibly imagine. And I think that is the tee up for better days ahead. And so I want to be at the heart of that kind of a revival.

[Kylie Griswold]

I do think we got a taste of that a little bit at the end of last year with the martyrdom of Charlie Kirk. And you know, of course we know martyrs are the seeds of the church and we saw that. I mean, attendance skyrocketing and of course not all of that is sustained. But, but there are still these moments of revival even amid, you know, our modern day versions of so many of these things. You know, we're not chucking babies into the Nile anymore or sacrificing them, you know, to the God, to, to like.

[Kirk Cameron]

Right.

[Kylie Griswold]

What am I looking for? 2 idols to images. But, but we sacrifice them to the God of self. And we, you know, we still, we still, we still do the same things. History is just, it goes around the same cul de sac and so it looks different. But you know, even today, you know, talking about like the persecution of. We can comfortably say that we are, you know, not experiencing these beheadings and whatnot. But you know, our brothers and sisters in Nigeria are. And so, you know, it just, it depends, of course, it's all shaped by your perspective. And, and there were so many times throughout history where people thought this was the end, this is the end, and it wasn't. And so it's just. But I do think it is healthy. It's healthier. Not in like a conspiratorial way or, you know, looking at the calendar like, oh, I think we're going to predict that it's on this day. But to look toward the coming of Christ with the expectation that it will happen during your lifetime rather than thinking that, oh no, this is just, we're still just, you know, going around the same cycle, like it wasn't then, it's probably not going to be now because we should be looking toward that with anticipation and expectation. Correct?

[Kirk Cameron]

Yeah. But again, I don't have a Crystal ball. And so people who really major on this, they want to take verses from Scripture that were written in, you know, that first century. And many of these things were events that took place in the first century. These were things that they could literally look forward to seeing in their lifetime. And then there are other things that are, I think, rightly understood to be far into the future. And so we've got to wrestle with these things. That's why I like having round table discussions. That's why I like having conversations. Like this is so that we can explore different ideas and understand that we're not the first person who've ever thought about these things. We've got thousands of years of history, of people debating these things with brilliant minds far smarter than I am, and I can learn from them. What I do know is that I've got today. I want to make the most of the opportunity. I want to preach the gospel. God's got the future in his hands, and I don't know how much I'm supposed to know. I should find it fascinating. I like to talk about it, but I want to live with a sense of urgency and anticipation and make the most of the days that I have.

[Kylie Griswold]

Yes, yes. And I think we're saying the same thing there, that it's just the urgency and anticipation. By just expecting that the Lord has said that he will do this. That means that he will do this. So no matter whether it's 24 hours or 24,000 more years, I mean, it truly doesn't matter because our mission is unchanged. It's the same.

[Kirk Cameron]

Yeah.

[Kylie Griswold]

So speaking of tossing ideas around and discussing things like this, let's circle back to the hell conversation because I know that this has gotten you into some hot water recently. And I'm just. I'm loving bringing up stuff that is just difficult. Difficult and not fun to talk about. So let's talk about Hellgate for just a few minutes. Can you just first explain what it is for people who did not see the initial clips or the initial full podcast that you posted with your son, who have no idea what I'm talking about. Like, what exactly happened that got you into some hot water?

[Kirk Cameron]

So this year, I launched a show called the Kirk Cameron Show. It's not really original, but in it, my son and I have these dangerous conversations. And I tell him, james, you can ask me anything you want. I'll be honest with you. And sometimes he gets me into trouble, and he certainly did this time. He asked me, dad, what actually happens in hell when someone dies? Are they Tormented forever, consciously in the presence of God, forever and ever and ever? Or are they annihilated and are they snuffed out like a candle wick when you snuff out the flame? And he was talking about this because he has some friends who were really wrestling with this, trying to understand how eternal conscious torment can coincide with a loving and merciful God, and would ask certain questions like how can a finite amount of sin be justly punished with an infinite amount of torment? Like after a billion years you're not one second closer to it being over. And he talked about some historical positions held within the church called conditional immortality or annihilationism. And we had this conversation and I ended up catching hell for it, pardon the pun. A lot of fiery discussion from church leaders and YouTubers saying that I was a heretic, others saying, no, this isn't heresy, it's history. Martin Luther talked about these things. Early church fathers talked about these things. One of my favorite apologists today, Wes Huff, said, you know what? Most people have never even engaged with the material on the conditional immortality side. And so I decided instead of just being offended by my own brothers calling me a heretic, I thought, well, let's do a deep dive and have a roundtable discussion. John Piper did this years ago on the subject of eschatology. And it was a pre millennial, amillennial and post millennial perspective in a roundtable. And I thought, well, let's do this with hell. I called it Hell Gate because many people are scandalized by the topic of hell and it's out now. People can watch it. It's a two and a half hour deep dive on what the Bible really says about hell because it matters to God and it matters to the people that we love.

[Kylie Griswold]

Well, and it really is a helpful watch. I would encourage all of our listeners and followers to go and watch it because it really steel man's. Both of the positions you really get straight from, you know, straight from the horse's mouth. What do people who believe in this position think? And versus the other side and using scripture to defend, to defend both positions. It's two and a half hours, but you can bump up the speed a little bit and watch it fairly quickly. It's really, really excellent. So I mean first of all, it goes without saying that this is just another example of the stupidity of the Internet to clip things and take them out of context for views and clicks and just the unhelpfulness, especially among believers, to do this to each other like that. That's so divisive. It's not helpful. It does nothing good for the church. It does nothing good for advancing the gospel. I mean, like, you can, you can watch the entirety of the podcast and walk away saying, I don't know, I don't think that's right. But to post a clip of it and then that fuel your outrage. Don't fall for the rage bait, people. This is not, this is not helpful, especially within the body of Christ.

[Kirk Cameron]

That's so true. And that was one of my biggest surprises. Not only that people had such strong feelings about it, but I didn't expect the cancel culture and the smackdown and the insults to come from the church. I expected it from the progressive left, the atheists. But to have leaders within the church call me a heretic, I thought to myself, wow, this is crazy. I mean, you would be calling Martin Luther a heretic. You'd be calling some of the church fathers heretics, and perhaps some of them were. But this is certainly something that's within the pale of Christian biblical thought. And most people just don't understand it or even know why they hold the position that they hold. That's why I made Hellgate, so that we could get four scholars from around the world, the best and the brightest, to talk about this respectfully with intellectual hospitality, using scripture as our north star, not our own intuition, not our traditions, as important as those are. We've ultimately got to come down to what does the Bible really say?

[Kylie Griswold]

Right? Well, and it's another case of majoring on the minors like we talked about before. I do not think that this is a first order issue. It does not affect our Christian witness. It does not affect, it doesn't have to affect unity within the body of Christ. As long as you are applying the whole council of scripture to it. It does not, you know, changing your view on the doctrine of hell does not inherently cause you to undermine other doctrines. I think, you know, we need to be careful that the way that we're approaching scripture, the way that we are, you know, the way that our exegesis and hermeneutics go, that we're not bringing too much of our feeling and that, that, you know, that that can be a slippery slope, but it's not inherently so.

[Kirk Cameron]

And Kylie, can I, can I, can I double click on something you just said, please? You were saying this is not a primary issue for Christians. We don't need to divide over it. But here's the thing. Remember, for my neighbor, it often is the primary thing. It is the hurdle. He can't get over. I mean, I can give you evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ that is pretty stinking compelling. You've still got to exercise faith. But evidence for an intelligent designer, for the credibility of the Bible as a historical document, that is not that difficult. But for my neighbor, what is often the Mount Everest he cannot climb is the idea of a God who appears to him to be the moral monster that torments people forever and ever in hell. And so we have to, as believers say, we can't just sideline this and say, oh, it's a secondary issue. I understand what we mean by that. But for my neighbor, it's a primary issue and may be the obstacle that's preventing him from embracing the gospel. We don't want to soft sell anything. We don't want to mute scripture. We want to be able to have dangerous conversations so that we may be able to say to him, there are other perspectives that have been held throughout the church. And the thing that you are terrified of. Well, let me tell you another perspective that I personally find compelling and scriptural that may open the door for you to walk through and allow God to answer some of these questions for you differently. How many people's health insurances cost more than their mortgage? The Watchdog on Wall street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day, Chris helps unpack the connection between politics and the economy and how it affects your Wal. Some Americans are paying more for the health insurance than their mortgage. And what happened? What if we all just stopped paying for health insurance? Will that force doctors to lower costs? Whether it's happening in D.C. or down on Wall street, it's affecting you financially. Be informed. Check out the Watch Daughter on Wall street podcast with Chris Markowski on Apple, Spotify, wherever you get your podcast.

[Kylie Griswold]

Yeah, so let's push, let's push on that even just a little bit more. Because I did. I don't disagree that it is. That it could be a primary issue for someone. You know, somebody might have no problem believing in the resurrection, but they can't believe in a God who would send, you know, quote unquote good people to hell, for instance. But I do worry because hell is not the only place where people can get hung up on this and turn something, you know, that it can be the primary stumbling block to keep them from coming to faith. And I mean, there's. There are others that come to mind. One of them is, you know, I have friends who identify as LGBT or whatnot. And, and I mean, this is one example among many. Anything could be the primary thing that that keeps you from coming to faith. And I, and you know, they, their contention, or maybe what would keep them from coming to Christ is, well, would God really prevent me from living, you know, a monogamous, you know, devoted life with the person that I love, whatever. And you know, I think of course we can run the risk. And we've seen plenty of so called Christians, you know, completely renege on this, this portion of the faith of, well, no, this is actually, you know, you have affirming churches now, which is, which is the danger there. And I just, I. What I fear is not putting yourselves in the shoes of an unbeliever to evangelize to them and thinking through, you know, what is stopping them up, how can we help them overcome these hurdles. But using that as a starting point to how we exposit scripture as like, you know, if that is inhibiting us from our evangelism, we know that the gospel is foolishness and offensive to people who are perishing. So how do we, how do we, you know, merge these two things where we don't falter in our witness by presenting a view of hell that is, that is, there are no other positions on this whatever, but also recognizing that, you know, God has to do the work of bringing people to himself, of removing our hearts of stone, replacing them with hearts of flesh. We can't do that by coming to scripture with this concern that people are not going to find the gospel palatable because of hell. Does that make sense?

[Kirk Cameron]

Yes. If we've said a lot right here, could you just condense that down to a simple question and I'll do my best to answer it?

[Kylie Griswold]

Yeah, sorry. I'm very worried today.

[Kirk Cameron]

I hear you. It's not easy to streamline all of these thoughts.

[Kylie Griswold]

My fear is that our personal discomfort with hell because it is uncomfortable, no matter what your view of it is, our personal discomfort with hell or the discomfort with hell that the unbelievers in our lives feel that that will affect our exegesis of scripture and how do we prevent that?

[Kirk Cameron]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that would be a terrible idea to begin to try to make scripture accommodate our preferences. Right. If my neighbor came out and said, you know, I just don't want to believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven, I'm not going to try to twist scripture to fit that view. I'm not going to avoid the topic, but I do want to thoughtfully answer questions if I'm able to. And if I don't know the answer to the question, I've got to be comfortable enough to Say I don't know. And the reason I can say I don't know is because I'm not God, so I don't know everything. And I'm confident that God does know and he is able to give you answers if you need them. So we shouldn't be afraid of hell. We shouldn't be afraid of same sex attraction. We shouldn't be afraid of concerns that people have because the truth is not vulnerable to people's questions. The truth can stand up. We just don't want to misrepresent the truth because we've held on to traditions or we have blind spots and have not thought it through. And we're saying things about God, about hell, about marriage, about sexuality and identity that are a misrepresentation of scripture. So I would say lean in and ask people, what are you uncomfortable about with Christianity? What are the most ridiculous positions that you detect within scripture? What are the things that are stopping you from believing what I'm telling you? And then I would say engage on those things because those are the roadblocks and there are good answers to those questions and concerns.

[Kylie Griswold]

So I know through your initial podcast with your son, is it James, you had expressed some of your concerns with the traditional view of hell, the eternal conscious suffering, eternal conscious punishment, torment, whatever word you want to use. I'm curious if you have any concerns with the other view after, you know, more study and, you know, are there any things that bug you or nag at you or don't. Don't quite sit right with the conditional immortality annihilationist view.

[Kirk Cameron]

Yeah, well, first of all, I would encourage people to watch Hellgate or do a study on it. I think I'm going to try to get, get AI to to give us a summary that you could read in maybe 10 minutes because two and a half hours is quite a bit, so that you understand what conditional immortality is actually all about. With regard to questions or things that bug me. Listen, everything bothers me about hell.

[Kylie Griswold]

Mm.

[Kirk Cameron]

I mean, this is sort of like the obvious thing. Jesus said, if your eye or your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off, gouge it out. It'd be better to enter heaven without an eye, without a foot, without a hand, than to have all of it and go to hell. This is a punishment that is eternal, do anything to avoid it. And the solution is the gospel.

[Kylie Griswold]

So.

[Kirk Cameron]

That'S where we all land with Hellgate. With regard to the positions, of course, the idea of somebody being in torment forever and ever, whether it's C.S. lewis's view of the sort of the twisting and disfiguring of your soul as a human being, kind of like Smeagol becoming Gollum over time, just rotting from within as we're separated from all things that are good. Your own pride and selfishness destroying you, or whether it's, you know, torment in flames, like the church has believed for many, many, many, many hundreds of years in physical bodies that feel those kinds of things. That's super bothering. But as two of the scholars pointed out, there appears to be a conscious experience in the punishment and that it is enduring. On the annihilationist side, they're saying, no, this is figurative language. We're talking about the Book of Revelation in particular, where it's really ground zero for these things with the lake of fire and smoke and torment day and night without rest, rising forever and ever. That this is language that is also side by side with a woman who is standing, you know, over the moon and she's clothed in the sun and there's a big red dragon and beasts and with horns and heads. And so this is obviously symbolic, figurative language. And what is it symbolizing and how does this relate to Jewish thought? You know, I find the conditionalist perspective very, very compelling, persuasive, thoughtful, and scriptural. But I also understand why I could be wrong, because most all of my heroes hold the traditional view. And so I just have great respect for those who handle the word of God and the human heart with carefulness and great care and don't throw spears at one another for trying to understand this better.

[Kylie Griswold]

Yeah, I think you brought up the better to pluck out your eye than to enter heaven blind, than to be thrown into the lake of fire, or whatever the exact phrasing is. And there's, of course, several. Several examples given in that passage. Let's see. I think it's in Mark. I think this is the first I'd considered this. But even that passage gives me a little bit of pause because the implication of the text is basically, it's better to torture yourself. It's better to torture yourself and avoid sin and enter into the kingdom of heaven than to be thrown into hell. And then, of course, that's what gets into where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. And of course, I know the conditional immortality view would say that maybe the fire is not quenched, but that does not mean that human souls are not quenched. Whatever. It's hard for me to imagine a place where the worm does not die, but human beings do. And I Just even the imagery of like, it's better to cut off your hand than to be thrown into hell. It's like, well, why is that? Like, if, if torture is temporary either way, then why is that? And I know that's not like, that's not a typical proof text, but even as I was reading that this week, it gave me a little bit of pause because I'm like, what, what's the implication here? If either way, the suffering is temporary, does that make sense?

[Kirk Cameron]

Yeah. Yeah. These are, these are good questions and these are the kinds of questions that, that we dive deep into with, with Hellgate. As you, as you saw and as you heard, and there are, there are robust arguments on both side of this. If you look at the language that Jesus is using there, you're going to go Back to Isaiah 66, you're going to go back into the Old Testament where you see that same language being quoted from by Jesus. And when, when you look at places like Sodom and Gomorrah, when you look at places like Edom, these are places that are not still burning, although it refers to eternal fire, refers to the smoke rising and never ending. And they would say that this is referring to a final complete destruction and judgment. So that's why we did Hellgate, because it's not easy enough to get to the bottom of, in my view.

[Kylie Griswold]

Yeah, it's well worth the watch. Well worth the listen, definitely. I would encourage all of our viewers to go watch Hellgate. Definitely worth it. I of course, brought up one of my very minor non even proof text objections to it.

[Kirk Cameron]

But these are the questions that I think people want to, they want to wrestle with. I mean, this is a straight up Bible study. This is the Bible revival that we need within the church. Because too many people can go to church their whole life and their pastor's never going to talk about hell. Why? Because it freaks people out. It divides them. But shouldn't we talk about it when Jesus talked about it as much as he did, when our friends and family souls are at stake? We've got to talk about these things and we should know why we believe what we believe. And I think the best ways to ask questions like you're asking the one.

[Kylie Griswold]

Thing that doesn't sit quite right with me still, or did and Hellgate didn't quite move the needle. Needle for me on it was during your initial podcast, you had brought up the concern that, you know, is hell is the idea of eternal conscious punishment, eternal conscious torment. Is that really compatible with a God who is loving and mercy, that, yes, God is just, but he is also these things, and so can we. You know, it kind of goes back to the, the classic rhetoric of could a loving God send people to hell? But as a Christian, you know, asking, like, does what we know about the character of God, is that compatible with the idea that a loving God could send, could send people to hell? And what still trips me up about that or is unconvincing for me, is just that God perfectly defines both justice and love. He is both of these things completely. But the way that we experience God's love and mercy is ultimately through Christ and the common grace that he gives us on earth that should lead us to repentance in Him. Repentance and faith. And my question is, you know, we know that at the end of time, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Christ is Lord. And yet that is not an argument for universalism because not all will continue into, into heaven with Christ. So there's this recognition that He's God. And yet the time for repentance, the time for, for salvation is passed. And, you know, at that time, when the goats and the sheep are separated, when the wheat is separated from the chaff, whatever biblical imagery you want to use, you know, do we have reason to believe that it is still time for mercy, you know, or is God. Has God's mercy like, exhausted itself? You know, are we only experiencing. Can, can God's mercy then only be experienced through, through Christ in heaven? And do we need to assume that those who are lost without Christ will continue to experience his mercy? Because I don't know that we do need to believe that. Does that make sense?

[Kirk Cameron]

It totally makes sense. I agree with you. I'm there with you on that. I don't think, I don't believe. I don't see any contradiction in the God of the Bible not showing mercy to the wicked after they have rejected the means of his mercy, which is the gospel. So I don't have any, and I don't see a conviction there. I don't think that makes God a moral monster at all. I, I agree with the logic that, that the greatest commandment is to love God with all of our heart, all of our mind, and with all of our strength. He is deserving of infinite worship and obedience and reverence. And to fail to do that is to commit an infinite sin, and an infinite sin is deserving of an infinite punishment. I see. That tracks all the way through. I'm just asking, is that what the Bible really teaches?

[Kylie Griswold]

Yeah, I think Kirk, that we could probably have a two hour conversation ourselves on this as two non experts. But our time is short so I am just going to end on one final question that is so much lighter than the health topic. I want to talk to you about your children's book and see you at the library day. That's the first way that we actually connected. And I would just love to know, can we expect to see any more children's books from you? And are you planning to re up the library tour in 2026?

[Kirk Cameron]

Yes. Yes. I am so excited about seeing you at the library in 2026. So for those who aren't aware, you know, I was locked out of public libraries when I wanted to read books of Christian virtue about faith, hope and love to kids even though they were letting drag queens in there to read and teach the rainbow religion to these kids about sexual identity and all this. And now under the new administration, we've been invited to the Library of Congress, I mean the largest, most beautiful public library in the country, to read these books about loving your neighbor and about the priority of family and trusting in God.

[Kylie Griswold]

Kirk, is bravebooks.com, also where people can submit requests to be a library stop for the tour?

[Kirk Cameron]

Yes, yes you can. You can find a library. You can host a library event. Go to bravebooks.com awesome.

[Kylie Griswold]

If you want to see Kirk Cameron in your own town, submit a request there. Kirk, we are at time, but I am so, so thankful for your time today. I had a great time talking with you. Thank you again so much for joining the show. Thank you so much for tuning in to this week's episode of the Kylie Cast. If you haven't done so already, please like and subscribe. Wherever you get your podcasts, go check out the Hell Gate video that Kirk Cameron posted recently. It's two and a half hours, but it is well worth a listen. And of course follow him on social media. Check out his own podcast. I will be right back here next week with more. So until then, just remember the truth hurts, but it won't kill you.