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Federalist Radio Hour
‘The Kylee Cast’ feat. Leigh Fitzpatrick Snead, Ep. 25: When God Calls You To Parenthood But Not Pregnancy
01:03:23
On this episode of "The Kylee Cast," Leigh Fitzpatrick Snead, a fellow at The Catholic Association and author of the new book "Infertile But Fruitful," joins Federalist Managing Editor Kylee Griswold to share her story of infertility, her bad...
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- [00:00]
A
Hi everybody and welcome to the Kylie Cast. I'm Kylie Griswold, Managing Editor at the Federalist. Please like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. If you don't know, we have a new channel specifically for the Kylie Cast on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. So if you are only subscribed to the Federalist Radio Hour or your are Wrong with Molly Hemingway and David Harsany, two of our other wonderful Federalist podcasts, please also subscribe to the Kylie Cast as well. Leave us a five star review that is one of the easiest ways you can help out the show. And even better yet, if you're just listening to the show, go check out the full video version on my personal YouTube channel or the Federalist Channel on Rumble. And then of course like and subscribe there too. If you'd like to email the show, you can do so@radiothefederalist.com I would love to hear from you today. I am so excited to welcome to the Kylie Cast Lee Fitzpatrick Sneed. Lee is a fellow at the Catholic association and she is also the author of the brand new book Infertile But Fruitful. In the book, Lee walks through her personal story of infertility and what it was like going to see a doctor that did not align with her Catholic worldview that really tried to immediately push her toward ivf. She also talks about then pivoting to a different doctor that worked with her wants and desires and within her Christian beliefs. She talks about adoption and the difference between a desire for a baby and a desire for pregnancy. She talks about breastfeeding. She talks about her faith and her life and her marriage. There is truly something in this book for everyone, especially because even if you don't personally struggle with infertility, you either know somebody or will know somebody who struggles with this and it's just such a good resource to help understand and have more compassion for people who are walking through this road that can be so dark and so lonely and so difficult. I'm so excited for you to hear our conversation. We had a great time. Definitely don't sleep on the opportunity to pick up Lee's brand new book. It's such an easy and delightful read. I found myself crying at parts and laughing at parts. It's very thought provoking and she also offers a lot of helpful practical lessons that she's learned along the way that you can implement in your life whether you struggle with infertility or not. So without further ado, please welcome to the show Lee Fitzpatrick Snead. Lee, thank you so much for coming on the Kylie cast. It is such a privilege and an honor to have you.
- [02:32]
B
Kylie, thank you so much for having me. I'm really happy to be here with you today.
- [02:35]
A
Yeah. I was telling Lee right before we started recording that because I review so many books and do so many interviews with authors on the podcast, often reading a review copy of a book means more like heavy skimming or speed reading. And I sat down with Lee's book and I read it in one sitting, and I could not put it down. And it was like a full, thorough, not a speed read. I was just completely engrossed by it. At the end of every chapter, you just have to keep reading because there's just so much great stuff as part of her story. So I don't know if there's like, a better recommendation to a book than one that you just can't put down. So everybody should read Lee's book. But, yeah, Lee, I don't want to give the book away, but can we just start by you giving us just kind of a 30,000 foot view of walking us through your story to just kind of give people a sense of who you are, where you come from, and what brought you to write this book?
- [03:24]
B
Yeah, Well, I met my husband in college, freshman year. We got married soon after. Um, we met. We saw each other at church, and we, you know, it sort of. We put off kind of casually having kids because we were younger and, you know, we were living in D.C. and sort of that lifestyle every. No one. None of our friends were even married really at first. And so we put it off. And then we really started trying to have a baby in earnest. And a year went by and no baby. And over the years, we sought different medical treatments at different times. We decided to pursue adoption, actually, simultaneously with trying to still get pregnant. And I did some. I was in graduate school for philosophy, but I left my program with a master's when my first son was born. And I eventually got into doing some freelance writing, and that sort of ebbed and flowed over the years. My husband's a professor at Notre Dame. And we built. We moved, we left D.C. we built a life here in Indiana. I started working with the Catholic Association a few years ago, doing more writing and hosting our syndicated radio show, Conversations with Consequences. And I had written a couple articles for the National Catholic Register about my infertility experience, I think maybe even for National Infertility Week or something. And one of them was an open letter to those suffering from infertility. And it really resonated. I got a lot of messages, a lot of comments, a lot of sharing. A couple just really great stories from that. You know, I had some friends who actually didn't realize were suffering from infertility that reached out, and then that sort of blossomed into a really, really very full friendship with them. Another young married man was up at night searching for answers. He and his wife weren't getting pregnant, and they were, you know, sad and not knowing what to do. And he was just looking, and he came across my article and then saw my last name and realized that he had been a student of my husband's. And so we've, you know, we've maintained a friendship with them, too, after that. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so I had a mentor who thought the same thing, and she said, lee, this is your book. And so then I decided I put it together. And I was in my late 40s. It was sort of. That time was come. I mean, it was closed. But, you know, in your brain, you kind of have to get used to the idea. You have to be able to say, I am never going to get pregnant. Because no one ever told me that. No doctor has ever said that to me. But they would now because I'm 50 and, you know, I've never been pregnant so far. So, you know, being able to say that and being like, okay, this is where I am now. Now I can go back. I just, you know, I just want people to be able to. I want people to see themselves in a book, because I feel like we're kind of unrepresented in all kinds of stuff, whether it's nonfiction or fiction or entertainment or, you know, just culture at large. I mean, you see families with biological children everywhere and. Or just families with children in general. And, you know, I think that the conversation is getting better and more fruitful all the time. And I think a lot of people are writing and talking about it, which is fantastic. But infertility needs to be. Needs to be something that everyone is, you know, a little. At least a little bit fluent in and is used to talking about and aren't they aren't uncomfortable talking about it. I think that's really what I wanted to do. I wanted to sort of, like, break the ice on the conversation.
- [06:53]
A
Yeah. And I think your book does that really well, because I think for people who do struggle with infertility, this is. It's such a great book for them to feel seen and to feel like, I'm not alone, and they're other people who struggle with this Especially because you do include other stories besides your own in the book that are so different from yours, just. Just to give people hope who maybe are in the same struggle. But I think it also really helps people who do have children or who are pregnant or, you know, who don't suffer from this to kind of understand what that road looks like and how to come alongside somebody who struggles with that and be a better friend and a better sister or, you know, whatever it might be to those.
- [07:30]
B
Exactly. Especially when you say sister, because I think that that's who I've heard from a lot. It's like, I didn't know how to talk to my sister about this. And especially if you come from a big family and maybe all your other. Your mother obviously had lots of children, maybe your sisters are having lots of children, and you're sort of the odd man out. People, they want to help and they want to be there for you, but they don't make you feel worse. And so oftentimes they say nothing. And then you don't know how to bring it up, and maybe you're kind of ashamed and so you don't bring it up with them. So no one talks. And then everybody just gets kind of lonelier and sadder. I think there's a belief, too, when you're suffering with infertility that I'm not gonna really talk about this. I'm just gonna wait it out because one day I'm gonna get pregnant, and that'll be the news, and that'll be my story, and I won't have to think about any of this other dark stuff again. But, you know, you need to be ready for that not to happen. And I think it's. It's so. It's, you know, it's more. It's more common think. I mean, it's still. I think I've heard anything between like 1 in 5 or 1 in 10 couples, but it's. Again, that could be just a delay, that it takes more than a year, the typical year for somebody under 35 to get pregnant. Yeah.
- [08:46]
A
Yeah.
- [08:46]
B
Well.
- [08:46]
A
And especially just the loneliness and the isolation that comes from that. Like, the enemy loves nothing more than to isolate us and to make us feel like we're alone or, you know, or to drive us into the dark corners of not opening up about these things and not finding people who can mentor us and disciple us or even just sit with us in our grief. Such a lonely place to be. And that's exactly where he wants us to be, so.
- [09:05]
B
Exactly. And that's when you're, you start feeling that. And I really try to be honest about those dark and raw kind of moments when, you know, you're jealous, you're jealous of people, you know, you're envious, you're, you're resentful. You know, it's hard to take joy in other people's joy. There's a lot of why me or why not me? You know, there's a lot of. You get weird thoughts with like your husband about like he should have married somebody else or you know, like just really dark things. I think I tell the story in the book about. I remember one couple times I had a dream that my like my 50 year old mom at the time was, was pregnant, you know, because like obviously everybody can get pregnant except for me. Right, Right. Yeah. And so I think that's right. I think you need that accompaniment with, you know, your friends. And I, you know, I hope that like pastors and you know, seminarians and priests and they read it too, so that have a couple in their flock that need this help if they kind of have that language ready to talk to them or can just share my book.
- [10:07]
A
Yes, yes. One of the things I love about your book is that at the end of each chapter, it's not, it is your story, but it's not just your story. You also give really practical tips and like takeaways and advice. I don't know what exact, I don't remember exactly what you call it, but.
- [10:20]
B
They'Re just like little lessons along the way, I think.
- [10:22]
A
Lessons along the way? Yes, and they're great lessons. And one of them from early in the book, you talk about how you met your husband when you were fairly young and you dated for a few years, but you know, when you got married, none of your friends were married or had babies. And so it was just like the normal thing to do, to wait. And I think one of the lessons that you give is like, you don't have to wait. You know, it's actually good to get started early. Can you just speak to like the cultural messaging that we get about, you know, you don't want to be the first one to have kids when all your friends are still out traveling and all these things. Like, you know, what do you think contributes to some of that messaging and maybe talk to somebody who is freshly married. Like what, what do you think they should do?
- [10:59]
B
You know, I think even as now that I'm the parent of a 20 year old now I can see why parents can fall into that trap of sort of, you know, yes, on paper, this is what we believe. And you should. I hope you find your husband and you get married and this. But, you know, you've invested money and time into your child's education. You want them to be proud. You maybe want them to go to graduate school. You want them to do this. You want. And maybe you have a concern that you want your daughters to be financially secure, and you don't want them to take those risks because that's your baby. And so you're protective of them, and so you project a little bit those expectations onto people. I think, even though sort of culturally, you might be totally on board with the early marriage, early babies thing, and that's something we do probably without even knowing about. I think another thing to consider is that, you know, if you really don't want kids yet, maybe it's not time to be married yet. I mean, obviously, I really. I treasure those first couple years. We really had, you know, a really fun time. But it's a. You know, I think that we could have also done that while still, you know, going a courting, you know, but it's. Again, I mean, I don't know. I'm all in favor. I think people put off marriage for the same reasons. They think, oh, I need to do this first. Whereas, I mean, my husband and I met when I was 19. He was 21. We did a lot of growing up together. I think we're glad about that now. We made a lot of mistakes, and the only. We were the only two that know, you know, like some embarrassing stories and things like that. Gotta keep it in the vault. And, you know, I think that we were able to, because we grew up. And we grew up differently than we were brought up.
- [12:38]
A
I mean, we. We.
- [12:39]
B
Our house is different from the houses that we grew up in with divorced parents. And I was an only child, but we had meeting young. We had time to sort of craft and plan for the life and to kind of gather information as we went along. Yeah, I think. Does that address the question? I can't remember.
- [13:00]
A
Yeah, definitely multifaceted.
- [13:01]
B
Yeah.
- [13:01]
A
Yes. Yeah. Well, and I think one of the messages, like, I hadn't really thought about the parental component of it, of, you know, even the messages that you get from your parents where they want certain things for you that maybe would delay some of those things. But also, of course, we get so much cultural messaging now, and it's so much secular messaging. But even, you know, some people believe it's pro life messaging, which I would disagree with, and I think you would too, that, you know, well, it doesn't really matter when you start trying to have babies, because you can always freeze your eggs or you can always pursue ivf. But bas just that there's always a backstop. There's always a fallback. Even if things don't work out for you, you know, there's always a way to remedy that. And you talk in the book about a couple of different doctors that you pursued over the course of your struggle with infertility, and the first one being one that really pushed for ivf. Can you talk a little bit about your experience with that doctor and kind of like some of the pitfalls that associated your pursuit in trying to get answers to your infertility?
- [13:55]
B
Yeah, well, so my husband was actually working as the general counsel for the President's Council on Bioethics with Leon Kat. That's under George W. Bush. And he was the chief drafter of a government report called Reproduction and Responsibility, right around the time we were really trying to get pregnant. And so, basically, as we went on, every month not being pregnant, he was also every month learning about something that can go wrong and the different ways they treat it and the ethical implications of those things. And so it just. It was like we were being hit at on all sides, like, this is the fertility world. But at the same time, you think, okay, because he met with infertility associations and things like that. He knew the name simplicity. We lived in D.C. we had access to a lot of doctors. This doctor, I think, had been featured in Washingtonian magazine and everything. And we're thinking, okay, well, he probably does some stuff we don't agree with, but he's really good. And again, you think, I'm in my 20s. This has got to be an easy fix. Go the great doctor. You get in, get out, right? Fix it. It's going to be easy. And so we went and we thought we were armed with our. What we called earlier our Catholic infertility playbook. We thought, we'll write the rules. And he just. He wasn't having it. I mean, he told us all the time, you know, I'm a cradle Catholic. I don't see what the big deal is. And, you know, he's like, I'd really like to enroll you in my IVF program. Enroll me in the program. Because, I mean, it was like 26, 27, I think, at the time. So, you know, I was great for success rates. Maybe, maybe. I mean, you know, who knows? But.
- [15:29]
A
Right. How long did you see him before he. He expressed an interest in enrolling you in ivf? Like, was that right off that.
- [15:37]
B
Right off the bat? Yeah. And so we had to kind of, like, see, like, hey, can you try? Can we do some more diagnostic tests? You know, like X rays and stuff? And. And so it kind of humored us, thinking that eventually we'd crack. I think it's what they do, because every month when we'd have a meeting after, you know, he'd sort of like, you know, what's the. Well, I can't think of the word. But he didn't really want to. But he gave us these big kind of band aid treatments. Not really. No. That band aid treatment, that's not really what I'm looking for. The word I'm looking for is, like, he was trying to pacify us until we could get. Until we just would agree to do what he wanted to do. Yes. And sorry for that word jumble.
- [16:18]
A
You're good.
- [16:19]
B
The. You know, we go in, he'd be like, okay, so what do you think now? What do you think now? This medicine is really not working for you. Let's do ivf. Let's do ivf. And I think that was about maybe like, four or five months in. And we're like, you know, we told you, no, that's not what we're going to do. Is there something else? You know, and he got so enraged and frustrated with us, he pointed back to his lab, saying, I'm creating life back there, not destroying it.
- [16:50]
A
And were you just so taken aback, like, I don't even know.
- [16:54]
B
Oh, I'm having a reaction right now, just remembering it. It was awful. And to think this is the person that's supposed to be, like, caring for you, your body, especially something so intimate is your fertility. So my husband grabbed my hand, we walked out. I don't even think we checked out at the desk, and we just never went back.
- [17:11]
A
Yeah.
- [17:11]
B
And the weird, sort of anecdotal part of it is, and I do try to make great efforts to not conflate infertility and adoption, because I think they're too. You know, you might have a calling to adoption. You might not be infertile, might be infertile and not called to adoption. But about nine months after we walked out of that office, my son, my oldest, was born.
- [17:31]
A
That is so redemptive and just beautiful. Yeah. And it's just so crazy to hear that story, like, you know, because you think there's probably a lot more women who. Well, there's plenty of women who see no ethical qualm with ivf. And the second the doctor, you know, recommends amends it. Especially because so much of unexplained infertility is just unexplored infertility. Not all of it, of course, but if you're being pushed toward IVF the moment you walk into a fertility clinic, that's clearly not something that they're exploring. And so just the number of women who are just put onto this cash cow conveyor belt of ivf, and they don't see anything wrong with it, and many of them then do see something wrong with it later down the road and have lots of regrets about it, but just those women. And then you have the few that, you know, are seeking real, real, real treatment, a real answer for their infertility, and they know for a fact, no, we are not going to do this. We're not going to do this. You walk out of that clinic, how many other women walk in there with a vague notion of, no, we don't want to pursue ivf, but they face that kind of pressure and that kind of pushback and just that persistence and anger from a doctor supposed to be caring for you, and just, I mean, that is so much pressure. And.
- [18:33]
B
Yeah.
- [18:34]
A
You know, especially people who are not, well, catechized or not, you know, not. Not theologically sound. I don't know, just like, how little pushback it would take to cave to a doctor that's that persistent and awful.
- [18:48]
B
Yeah. Because it's really, really tempting. You go in there, the walls are plastered with baby pictures. There are pregnant women everywhere. And you think, you try to, you know, in those, you know, late at night when you're kind of crazy in and out of sleep, you start thinking like, what if we just did one embryo? What if just two, you know, no extras, we wouldn't selectively reduce, you know, all these things you're trying to make. These. Is, could it be okay? You know, and it's tough. And again, that's again, why you need that support, why you need to have your family and your loved ones around you so that you're not dealing with those sort of temptations alone. Because if you're already dealing with your infertility and secrecy, I think it would. It's not easy. It's not hard to imagine doing IVF also in secrecy, maybe because your community, you're also surrounded by people who don't, you know, want to do ivf, but you think you just do it, and then nobody knows. And I never have to think about that again.
- [19:44]
A
And it's just those thoughts are so. That's always where the pro life mind goes. Right. Because it's you, you so badly desire for people to be helped who are struggling with this, but to be helped in a way that doesn't violate our consciences and doesn't violate our, our view of the sanctity of life. And I just had a really good conversation with Katie Faust recently about IVF specifically. And just her talking about the fact that like, even if this is what you, if you talk to an IVF fertility doctor about these desires, they won't even do them. Like they won't even let you do a cycle with just, you know, one embryo or two embryos because they need you to come back for more. They need you to have embryos frozen there. Like it is such a racket. And so it's just, it's just heartbreaking because it's such an exploitative process. And you know, people who are in their most vulnerable state and just preying on, on that good God given desire.
- [20:36]
B
To bear children 100%. And I think you got, you hit on it a little bit ago about the not getting to these root causes. And so that's why it's really heartening to see the proliferation of these restorative reproductive medicine doctors and Nepro technology doctors being trained by Dr. Hilgers in Nebraska or just even people who advertise themselves. I'm a doctor, I'm also a man or woman of faith and we can work on this together. I talked to one person who had helped actually with a different part of my book. And they had, she and her husband were having some problems that she couldn't find anyone to help with. Conventional doctors, even some of the restorative medicine doctors weren't able to help her. But what she found was a Jewish practice. And while they had no problem doing, these two doctors had no problems with ivf and they suggested it a couple times. They were also very strong in their faith and so they respected my friend's views too. And so they were able to actually to successfully treat her. And I think she has four children now.
- [21:49]
A
Yeah, that makes all the difference is finding a provider that shares your values and even if they don't share them, respects them from the outset.
- [21:55]
B
Respect. Yes.
- [21:56]
A
That's so important. I was actually going to ask you about Napro next and your alternate fertility treatment seeking with Dr. Hilgers. And can you just explain more in detail what Napro technology is and like what the Creighton model is?
- [22:13]
B
Sure. I mean, this is going to be, you know, just like the late the lay woman's explanation. There are lots of people out there who can get into the nitty gritty details with you. It's a symptom. Both. Well, it's, it's symptomatic charting. And you, you, we have these different stickers that indicate different kinds of body signs for your fertility and the. When you are under the care of an physician, you'll. For infertility, you'll have like blood work done and there'll be adjustments to, you know, hormone levels, things, things that are, you should have going for you anyway. In fact, like, lots of young women are now learning the method early to figure out what's going on. Like, why is my PMS so bad? You know, I actually have a friend who's a napro practitioner and also practices it and she actually detected through charting her own precancerous cells.
- [23:13]
A
That is crazy.
- [23:14]
B
I mean, it's amazing. The ways that this affects the quality of your life are just so far reaching so far beyond even just being able to achieve pregnancy when you can't.
- [23:24]
A
And I think now rebuke to the other way of just putting you on this quick fix method. Like, you know, there's so many underlying things in health that just, they need to be addressed. And you know, I even think like now so many women use and men use these aura rings, which is obviously different. But that also gives you so many, so many indicators of your body and like the way that it can tell you you're probably going to get sick tomorrow because of what your body temperature is or like, you know, something that seems a little off. And it's just like your body gives, gives so many signs about everything. And so tracking those is just such a holistic way to approach something that does have such distinct underlying causes. So I'm sorry, I totally cut you off.
- [24:07]
B
No, I love it. I love how excited you are about it. And there's a real, I think generational shift that's happening too that people are turning to that, you know, people are throwing away their hormonal birth control pills and things like that, respecting their bodies more. Which makes sense when you think about like Matcha drinking and yoga ladies and all these other things that we're doing for ourselves. Why are we putting these chemicals into our bodies all the time too? But I think that part of it is that big business thing we just talked about a lot of these strategies, a lot of them take time to heal if you're really addressing these underlying root causes. And I think that conventional doctors often want you on the Schedule and once you pass, you know, the one year mark and then maybe you've done, I mean, if you're willing to pay, I think a lot of doctors will let you try IVF until, you know, the money runs out. But, you know, but I think that, you know, I know women who have really younger women who have stuck with it for years and have just continued seeing doctors and trying different things, doing things like diet, which obviously is not going to affect you your next cycle. You know what I mean? Like, that's going to take time, right. Inflame, inflammation, all these different things. And you know, five, six, late six years later, they're having a healthy pregnancy. But because you're not on that fast track, you know, this artificial timeline that people create. Right. And again, if it is, if it's true, if you've been to your own, like, you know, feelings or maybe you didn't meet the right guy or woman until you were older. Yeah, you're under the clock a little bit and you need to respect that. But these, yeah. The idea that it's over for you and there's only this one solution is just, it's maddening.
- [25:56]
A
Can you talk about, you discuss in the book the difference between the desire for pregnancy and the desire for a baby. Can you explain what you mean by that distinction and kind of how that manifested for you?
- [26:07]
B
Yeah, and that's actually, it's really good timing with that question because I was just sort of thinking it. I don't know if I would have had it in me to stick with it. It five, six, seven years. Really wanted to be a mom with a baby right now. And I think some people, some people, you know, have the, have the metal to go the distance, you know, and can do it and, But I, and I never, you know, we never stopped trying to have, even if we weren't under care, we never stopped like being open to life and really wanting to be pregnant. Right. But it's. Once that door opened and we saw that, I mean, really, I, I had a, a real clear message. You're an adoptive mom and you know, you, I knew it. But then he told me, so this. Yeah. And it just, it was, it just was so, it was so clear to us. That was our vocation that, you know, if we had other babies, that was fine, but this is something that we could do and we wanted to do and. Yeah. And so that made it easier for me. I do think that, you know, other people really want to experience pregnancy. And I do. I mean, I still, I still mourn. That idea. But, you know, in the end, I just. I just. I wasn't hesitant to jump on the adoption train pretty early, but it was my. My first son was three when we saw Dr. Hilgers, just to sort of put people. Okay. Within the timeline. Yeah, yeah.
- [27:43]
A
Just the clarity that your call was to parenthood, if not to pregnancy.
- [27:47]
B
Yes.
- [27:48]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, let's talk a little bit about the trip that you took. Was it to London for six months?
- [27:55]
B
Yeah. My husband. Yeah. Taught in the London program in Notre Dame for six months. And we decided to take a break from our treatments with Dr. Hilgers just because it's like a lot of medicine and needles stuff and just felt like I already felt being in Indiana, away from him in Nebraska was already kind of far enough. Putting an ocean between seemed like too much. And then you just have, like, a suitcase full of needles and whatever. And we thought, okay, great, six months. Let's just take a little break. And the needles really do get to you. I mean, it got to a point where I think all the blonde ladies out there will understand this, that even just getting foils for highlights was. I was just so sick of being, like, messed with all the time, you know, that I just. It was nice to just have a break. And we really had a nice time. We know. We just had our. Our first son. He was 4. He turned 5, and we were there. We went to the theater, we went to restaurants. We did lots of cultural things. You know, we traveled to Italy for two weeks to see friends there. It was just really, really great. And when we were ready to go home, you know, we're sort of, you know, making sure or, you know, our son was enrolled for school the next year. And because it was like May, June, I guess, and everything was in line for us to come home with the dog sitter, whatever. Oh, I should probably call Dr. Hilgers and let him know, you know, coming home and what I. What do I need to do to get started back up again? Do I need to go get blood work done? And my husband said, you know, maybe let's just not. Let's. Let's just adopt again. And it was almost like he gave me my permission to give myself permission to stop. Because you do feel that pressure, like, I gotta keep doing this. I've got to keep doing this.
- [29:34]
A
Yeah.
- [29:36]
B
Because it's, you know, it's gonna work. And we got a 75% chance of success. You know, that's what, you know, he predicted for us. And it was such a relief to Be like, okay, you know, but again, like not forever off the table. I always, you know, thought about it again a couple times, but it just didn't make sense for us. You know, I think we thought if it happens, it happens. But if not, we know that this is a way that we can be parents and it works for us. And so again, we got home and it wasn't very long before we got our home study done. And so we got home, say like June of 2010. And in March 2011, we got a call from our agency saying, hey, we got all your paperwork, background checks, you know, know, criminal records, blah, blah, blah, Everything looks good. We'll let you know, you know, what's going on with your profile every month. We'll check in with you. But by the way, there's a woman who's expecting twins at the end of this month. Are you open to being considered by her? And we're like, oh, sure. And we're thinking, great, this is great. We're getting a little nipple now. Definitely. This is our year. We'll get a baby. And then the next day she wants to talk to us. And then the next day we were going to take her out to lunch and then she was admitted to the hospital. And that night the twins were born.
- [30:50]
A
That is so cool.
- [30:51]
B
So that's about 48 hours. Yeah, we still haven't quite recovered. 14 years later, almost 15 years later.
- [30:57]
A
I don't know where you ever will.
- [30:59]
B
No, no, no, no.
- [31:08]
C
Will Washington's housing fixes backfire? The Watchdog on Wall street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day, Chris helps unpack the connection between politics and the economy and how it affects your wallet. Trump plans on purchasing billions in mortgage backed securities as well as allowing people to use retirement to make does adding more cash bring down the price or add fuel to the fire? Whether it's happening in D.C. or down on Wall street, it's affecting you financially. Be informed. Check out the Watchdog on Wall street podcast with Chris Murkowski on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast.
- [31:46]
A
There was this passage from your book where you're talking about that and just, yeah, I'll just read this passage because it was so beautiful to me. Often bleary eyed and with your first son right there in the mix, we three gazed at our two sweet and snuggly little miracles and knew, just knew with every bone in our tired bodies that leaving the needles behind and instead preparing ourselves for another adoption was exactly what we had been meant to do. I'm sitting on my Couch reading this by the fire, literally just crying. It was just so beautiful. And I just love, love that and the way that your husband gave you permission, you know, that you felt just that relief and permission to just give your body a break. And I also just love, like, you know, inherent in your story in London is just also the beauty and the importance of the fact that when you're going through struggles, struggles like this, because when you start trying to get pregnant, that becomes kind of your sole focus, especially if it doesn't happen right away, like, that is the only thing. You are, like, one track mind. This is what we're doing. And just the importance of, you know, your marriage to your spouse, it will still always be the most most important relationship you have. And it's so important to prioritize that. And just like the beauty of. Of having that time to reconnect away from the constant bombardment and pressure and feeling of, this is what we're doing. We gotta track. We gotta do this and that. And just there's so much redemption and beauty even in that part of the story. And it's like there was not. There was not a conception in that part of the story. And still it was so beautiful and redemptive. And I mean, I. I love the title of your book for that reason too, because throughout every page, it's just like, yes, it is about infertility, but it is also such a fruitful story. And I was just overwhelmed by that over and over throughout the whole book. So.
- [33:30]
B
Oh, I'm so glad, because that really is the message, I think. And I think, again, it's one of the reasons why I was called, felt like I needed to write it now, is that, you know, I want people to look at our family and say, like, oh, hey, they never got pregnant. You know, that's not so bad, what they've got going on there. Like, that's a happy life. And. Yeah, and again, that's why I wanted to include other women's stories too. Like, I like to call the other flavors of infertility, especially the story of, you know, Ann, who. She and her husband don't have children because there are lots of women with infertility who, you know, don't have a calling to adopt or for whatever reason, don't adopt children. And I think that culturally, in Christian Catholic circles, sometimes we don't know. We don't know what to do with them. So again, we don't talk to them about it, you know, and it's kind of like, well, they must not care that they were infertile because they didn't adopt or do you know what I mean? Like those weird little assumptions you can make. And I know because even though I am on the infertile side, I make assumptions like that about people all the time. You know, it's just, it's just human nature. You just want to kind of wonder about. You get nosy about people's business and of course you can't ask because that's like the most intimate thing ever. But I think that when we think about, when we reduce fruitfulness to just baby, you know, we forget about like the fruitfulness of like, you know, our Catholic priests are celibate, they're fruitful, you know, like it's not just Mary married couples. And after you're done raising your children, you're still called to be fruitful. As a single person, you're called to be fruitful. So I think it's, it's really easy to think that your purpose in life, you know, your God given purpose is not, is in your failing because you're not having a baby. And to open up our idea of what real fruitfulness can mean, whether that means hospitality or godparents or your writer or your other gifts, the world, anything, any, if you like. It's, it's not even, you can't even really get examples because you don't know what, what you, what your fruits will.
- [35:31]
A
Be, if there'll be fruits. And you know what I mean, you.
- [35:33]
B
Don'T know until you shared them. Right? Yeah, you've shared these things and then they bear, they bear even more fruit. So I think that that's, that's a really important thing to remember is to really think about people who choose not or who don't adopt. And we still need to embrace them and we, and we still have to assume that they also suffered too. Yes. Yeah. I don't want them to go forgotten because it's easy again. Like, I think like, oh, it's great they were infertile and then they adopted babies and that's great, but you know, it's not. Life can be really great even without children, you know, and if that's, you know, but, and it's hard because every, every time we get reminded that we don't get to choose what happens with our lives, that's hard. And this is a big one, you know, especially, you know, for women, especially I think for Christian women. But yeah, it's a thing.
- [36:23]
A
Yeah. I have a number of Christian female friends who badly desire to be moms and wives and they still are having trouble with the first step of just like really struggling with singleness. And yet I look at their lives and there is so much fruitfulness there. And so much of that does come from still the motherhood, the God given motherhood, instinct and gift that women have been given. And you, you write in your book, even if infertile quote, our vocation to motherhood is no mistake. And I think even for women who, you know, it's not just for women who are infertile, but they are adoptive mothers, it's also for women who are still single and desiring marriage and motherhood, who fulfill that role and are just, they're using their God given biological gifts to motherhood long before they will even be wives and mothers. And I thought that was a really beautiful part of the. Also as I watch women walk that out right now.
- [37:20]
B
Yeah, I mean, you can mother your friend. I mean, we have this capacity for motherhood that in motherhood, again isn't just about raising your own biological children. It's about the way you approach the world. It's the way, you know, you just, it's what you bring to the workplace. I mean, it's, it's sort of, it's everything. It's, it's who we are. And so I think that it's. But when you, I have to tell you, when you're in the, in the midst of it and when you're in the depths of despair, it's these kind of thoughts, they kind of skim right off, you know, the surface.
- [37:48]
A
Right.
- [37:48]
B
So I was thinking, actually thinking about our podcast today and thinking about what we might talk about. And I know that I say in the book that I wrote it for like the 20 year old me or 25 year old me, you know, the book I wish I had in my 20s, but I, I don't even, I'm not sure I would have been able to sort of stick with it, you know, I think, I don't, you know, so that makes me sort of rethink that. I mean, I do think it's, it's just, it's important to think about a life that doesn't, you know, your fertility journey doesn't end in pregnancy and I think that's good. And I, I like to prove that we're a positive example of, you know, what that looks like. But, you know, I think, I think that it's really hard to listen. It's really hard to listen to anyone, you know, unless it's someone calling you from the doctor's Office telling you that your blood test shows that you're pregnant, you know, and so and again and again, that goes back to what we talked about right at the. At the start of it, you know, taking this out of the shadows, talking about it, writing about it, letting everyone know about it, people understanding. People understanding what IVF is, what that means. Why don't I just do ivf? Like, people have a kind of a working knowledge of that and, you know, and also can. Can just empathize more, can understand, like, what's that? Like, what do my children mean to me? What would that have been like if I hadn't been able to get pregnant? You know, and then also I think too, on our side, it's our side, the infertility side, you know, it's. It can. You can get a little edge to you after a while. And I think it's important to see, you know, the crosses that other people carry. For instance, I mean, you know, I know a couple who, you know, they just sort of like, wave to each other across the room and they have another child. And, you know, that's been a kind of a cross for them that sort of like. Like mega, uber fertility financially for their other children, you know, for her body. You know, when you get after eight kids, you know, it's like, it's a big thing. And so I think that we too have. We realize it just. Everyone has their prostate carry and they look different and they feel different. And I think if we just, you know, if we don't like, sort of rank them as worse or think that I have it worse than you or you have it worse than me or anything like that. I think it's just, you know, just. We just need to come together, get off our phones.
- [40:06]
A
Yeah, yeah. And try to make fewer assumptions, because you're right that that is a natural thing to do. But it's just. It doesn't help us and it doesn't help the people we're making assumptions about. It's so hard not to do, but.
- [40:17]
B
Oh, it's so hard. Yeah, I know. You can write their whole story just staring at the back of their head in search.
- [40:24]
A
How bad is that? It's so bad.
- [40:26]
B
So many levels is bad.
- [40:27]
A
Yes, yes. Yeah. And social media doesn't help with that either, because then we think we know more about people than we do, which is dangerous. A dangerous game. So this is totally changing gears, and maybe this shows my absolute ignorance as it comes to these issues, but I. Can you share what it was like breastfeeding your son Like, I didn't know that you could breastfeed an adopted baby after not having just given birth. Like, I should have known that because I knew you could like induce lactation. But I just, I'd never connected those dots and that part just fascinated me. So I would love if you could share a little bit about that.
- [41:00]
B
That. Yeah, you know, I have this friend who makes a couple of appearances in the book. She's actually one of the people who has sent me a photo of her in the book. She's already got it in the mail. She was a friend of mine. She had a little bit of trouble getting pregnant too. And so we had sort of like, you know, talked about that together. But then she did get pregnant and she was a nurse midwife and you know, she was a big fan of, of nursing and breastfeeding. And you know, I think it really was her when I think she had told me about it and I thought, that sounds great. But again, you think, you think you have all this time that you think adoption is going to take a long time, which is sort of why we started pursuing it almost immediately, before we even thought about seeing Dr. Hilters. But, you know, with our first, it didn't really take very much time at all. And I had about a week to get ready, two weeks maybe. And I thought, okay, I'm gonna shelve this breastfeeding things. I can't. On top of everything else, you know, I've got this Dupont Circle apartment I've got to make, get ready for a baby. I have nothing. So she said to me, she was like, you know, Lee, you know, you would have wanted to do it. You would have wanted to breastfeed your baby. That was a thing that you liked. And let's, why don't you just try, why don't you just go downtown to the Breastfeeding center of Washington in and talk to a lactation consultant. And I'll tell you what listeners lactation consultants love when adoptive moms want to breastfeed. It's like they're like Mount Everest. And again, I think there's a lot of different ways to do it. I didn't have a lot of time and so I used what's called a supplemental nursing system, an sns. Some mothers use it when they have a low milk supply and it's kind of like a juice bottle box size little canteen and you can hang it around your neck with a string. And then you have a catheter that meets up with your nipple and the baby when the baby latches on. It's the tiniest, tiniest little tube that takes the formula or donated breast milk out of the canteen thing and that it also stimulates the prolactin in your body to then produce. And I also took like supporting herbs and another medication that is used for something else but off label can have the side effect of producing lactation. And so, and then. Yeah, so that worked for, that worked for me. Yeah.
- [43:29]
A
That is the coolest thing. Like I read that and I was, my mind was blown and I was like, this is awesome. And I can't wait to ask her about this because it's super cool.
- [43:36]
B
Oh, I'm so glad because I really like talking about it, but I don't. Not everybody likes to talk about it, so. Especially like when people are like, oh, we wanted to tell you thanks for talking to us about infertility or adoption, whatever. We're adopting a baby. And I'm like, you gotta nurse it. I come on a little bit too strong. So I try not to lead with that. But I think, I think you're right. I think a lot of people don't. I mean, I had a book called like Breastfeeding the Adopted Baby, but I think there's a lot, a lot more information about that now and a lot more lactation consultants are familiar with it. Okay. Yeah. But I, yeah, I recommend it. It was really great. It's a nice, wonderful oxytocin boost. It's nice to have your body cooperate and just do something a little bit normal. But again, it's them. I think it takes, it takes a, it's, it's. I think if you can build a full supply. A lot of people do that. A lot of people when they just start the adoption process will start the whole protocol with pumping and they end up being able to freeze some breast milk and then it's a whole big thing. I was, I never had that time, lead up time. So it was more, I mean we used to call it recreational. It was like more comfort nursing. I mean, I made some milk, but we did have to supplement with formula. And my kids are great and they had a lot of formula. So I think no pressure either way.
- [44:51]
A
Right? Right, totally. Well, there's so much that happens through breastfeeding too, where like signals between your, your body and the baby's body and all of that. Does that occur in those instances as well? I would imagine that it does to some degree.
- [45:07]
B
Yeah, I would think so. I think when you both are like, experience like the oxytocin together. I think there's something that happens there. I mean. Yeah, I mean, something's happened. I mean, my kids are like barnacles. Even though they're big now, they just want to be close to me all the time. So I don't know, but we're kind of a huggy family. The. Yeah, I mean, it's just. It's a. It's a very. It's a very, very special thing. You know, actually, I've known even adoptive mothers who have not even tried to induce the actual lactation, but have just comfort nursed and. And I think that's a beautiful thing, too. And I think that's something we don't talk about. I think people think it's kind of weird. Some people think just normal breastfeeding is we. I mean, you know, I think you just got to do what's right for you and your baby.
- [45:50]
A
I look at it as just another. Another fruitful part of the story. Like, it's just super cool and like, it was redeemed. That was really, really awesome.
- [45:56]
B
Awesome.
- [45:58]
A
You talk in the book also just about, like, entering into perimenopause or the menopause part of your life and what you call grieving, fertility you never had. Can you just speak to that a little bit and kind of what that process has been like for you and how.
- [46:12]
B
How you're.
- [46:12]
A
How you're dealing with that?
- [46:14]
B
Yeah, it's really weird. I mean, it's not. Weird isn't not a very precise word. Just I'm kind of in the thick of it right now. Perimenopause is just not for the faint of heart, even though apparently we're all destined for it.
- [46:28]
A
So much about womanhood is not for the faint of heart.
- [46:31]
B
Right, Exactly. And it's just so many hormones and things going up and down and deciding what to do and how to treat it and. And things. And I just. I always wonder too, like, if. Because there wasn't any. You know, I think. I bet. I mean, I'm surely. If you. Let's just say you're a mom of like five or six. There comes a certain point in time where, you know, you haven't gotten pregnant in two or three years. You think, okay, this is. This is where I am now. This isn't going to happen, you know, but, you know, you've had these kids and it's. I don't know, it's just. There's no. No, it just seems to last forever, too. I mean, the perimenopause. I mean, they say 10, 15 years. There's no cutoff. You know what I mean? So it was only really like somehow it took. I mean, somehow turning 50, I'm like, okay, this has got to, there's got to be it, you know, because I've never, I've heard people like in their late 40s get pregnant, but also, I think those people had also been pregnant before. It's just, I mean, it's a. Maybe my tongue tied crazy nonsensical things shows you like what those emotions are like. Because it really is a very strange thing because it's, it's, it's. I mean, for me, really, it's just like sort of closing technically just closing the chapter on menstruation, hopefully. But you know, but at the same time it's, it is, it's. I know, yes. It's grieving for the fertility I never had and to always live with that little bit of a hope, little tiny hope that maybe you're going to get pregnant. Maybe there's going to be some weird thing, you know, like as you get older, sometimes you like dump a couple extra eggs out because your body's getting ready and you know, maybe one of those. Maybe, you know, you never know. Right. You open to the possibility of a miracle and to realize like, oh yeah, I'm not going to be one of those stories for real. I mean that probably was true like you know, 10 years ago, but it's a really, like it's really, really happening now, you know? Yeah, yeah. But I mean, luckily we have, I mean there seems to be a whole commercial side to Perimenopause now. There must be enough of us doing it. It's everywhere and everyone's at least talking about that.
- [48:39]
A
An article about it.
- [48:40]
B
I feel like in my newsfeed every other article, although it's. I'm sure Big Brother is targeting me, I'm sure. Yeah. But yeah, it is strange to do that, to have that kind of like. Yeah, well, I mean, you know, so I wrote the book. The end of the story. Yeah, end of the story. Yeah.
- [48:57]
A
And yet there is still so much more to the story. Like you have. Is it a three year old? Yes, yes. So there is so much yet to be written. And that's exciting that, you know, just because this chapter is closing. Like you, you know, you may have grandbabies ahead, you may have, you know, you still have so much child rearing ahead. It's just, it's also such an exciting time. Even though I'm sure there is a lot of grief just that accompanies like finally fully closing that chapter, but forgot the book. There's a lot left to be written there.
- [49:26]
B
Right. But even little things like, you know, that my youngest, because I was 47 when he was born, you know, he's probably most likely not going to have any little siblings. Siblings. And it's again, it's like something that never really occurred to me before, that obviously the last, whatever, whoever is last, doesn't have any little siblings.
- [49:43]
A
Right.
- [49:44]
B
But now that I've. And growing up an only child too, those are kind of things I'm learning just from seeing my own children. But seeing how my middle two and my eldest, you know, are together and the way my middle two, like, really grew into big brothers with the arrival of Gigi, our little one, it just, you know, you think like, oh, the last one, the caboose doesn't get, you know, another caboose.
- [50:11]
A
Right, yeah.
- [50:12]
B
Right, right. Yeah.
- [50:14]
A
Yeah. That's hard. That's hard. Well, maybe your oldest will have children that will kind of take that, that place, that role.
- [50:23]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [50:24]
A
To experience what it's like to be a big brother, even though they're not his younger siblings. Yeah.
- [50:28]
B
He is definitely dad material. Yep. In fact, at his little Montessori preschool, they did one of those videos where they interview all the kids, like, what do you want to be when you grow up? And you know, fireman, A princess? Ballerina. He said a dad. And so, yeah, I think we're gonna definitely get some grandbabies out of that one.
- [50:47]
A
So sweet.
- [50:48]
B
So sweet.
- [50:49]
A
You share in your book stories of friends who have suffered with male factor infertility specifically. And you know, of course, when you think about infertility, and this is another assumption, but you think of a lot of husbands been supporting their wives through infertility and kind of what that looks like. And of course there's, there's a certain kind of grief that accompanies, you know, men struggling through infertility. But there's also so much of it that is, you know, grieving, not having a pregnancy, which is unique to women. So it's just, it's such a different thing that men and women struggle with. But you know, specifically for couples who, who struggle with this male factor infertility, what, you know, how can wives love and support their husbands, Women, well, through.
- [51:30]
B
That, you know, I think it's just like how we can do it through everything by listening, by asking the right questions, asking open, asking open ended questions, understanding that their grieving might be different from yours. Being very careful not to place any blame. I think Men, really, because so often it is something wrong, you know, going on with the woman that men really are our husbands just, like, rise to the occasion and are just like princes to not do that, because we already feel guilty, you know, and I think we have to be careful, you know, not to do that to our husbands as well. I was really glad that my friend contributed her story because I actually didn't know until she shared it with me that that was why they were infertile. And I think people don't talk about it, people keep quiet about it. And it's such a strange sort of. I mean, I do like, you know, a man that's a protector and like, all those masculine virtues, but it is sort of like an outdated thing that we would think that, you know, he's somehow less of a man because he's got some sort of vascular issue that causes this problem. You know what I mean? It's just a medical problem. And again, I think that's. That's the next. I mean, you know, that's another one of the steps that. That needs to be talked about as well. And, you know, I think that, you know, there's. It's probably not a bad idea to address young men, to be like, these are the things can do to make sure, you know, or these are the exams you should get, or, you know, more awareness that that actually is a thing that happens. It's not just a punchline.
- [53:05]
A
Right, right, yeah, absolutely. And that starts early. I mean, there's so many things we do to fuel our bodies and, you know, things that men and women consume that, you know, maybe women are thinking about how it might affect their fertility, but men might not be thinking about how it's affecting them. And so, yeah, they're very important conversations to have and things to keep in mind. But at the end of the day, you know, that stuff can still happen. And it's just like trying to. Trying to support and love the best that you can. And I think, actually.
- [53:30]
B
Oh, sorry. I was just going to add a little bit to it. I think that even when it is female factor infertility, wives really need to remember that their husbands are grieving, too. And it's not just about you. And that so much the attention is on you, but you're the one that's not pregnant. You're the one at the doctors, you're the one having the test, you're the one with the injections. Um, but there's. You know, they're sad, too. They're sad and they're sad for you, I mean, it's a very multilayered kind of grieving that you're both doing together. And I think it's important to take the time to listen and not just assume that they're okay and that they're just there to be your rock to lean on.
- [54:07]
A
Right, right. Because infertility can take such a toll on marriages. But at the same time, it's also such a gift to experience it in marriage because you are not doing it alone. So, you know, if. If husbands and wives can support each other, well, that truly the best gift that you could have. When you're walking through something that is one of the. One of the most difficult things you can walk through, to just, to innately be doing it with another person is just. That's a sweet kindness from the Lord.
- [54:32]
B
Yes.
- [54:32]
A
Yeah. To have that support that's just built in, you know?
- [54:35]
B
No, it's amazing.
- [54:38]
A
Speaking of support, how. How would you advise friends who maybe are very fertile or family members who are very fertile, how can they best love and support and understand what infertile couples are struggling with, and how can they be good friends to them? You know, it's hard to know, like, you know, if you're struggling with infertility, like, there's. There's still going to be that pregnant friend that you have or whatever. Like, how does that person love you? Well, without, like, you know, it being in your face that, like, they are not struggling with this thing. Like, that's a really tough dynamic. And I just love your.
- [55:14]
B
It really is. It really is tough. And I think that it sometimes can place that fertile person, pregnant person, in an unfair person position because you can have. You can have moments where that person can't do the right thing for you. You know, they're just. They have their everything. They have everything that they want and you don't. And your attitude's terrible. But I think, you know, your true loved ones, if they can sort of weather those days along with, I think some practical tips just in conversation, is not to make comparisons between yourself and them or comparison persons or like, say things like, oh, I wish I could have a baby for you, or, you know, you know, lament your own fertility or things, you know, those are. Those are just like sort of normal, I think, rules about talking to other people, they apply here too. You know, again, I think, I think not excluding them from groups, you know, I. When I first moved here, I joined, you know, like most young moms do. You know, we all had found each other through different ways. Like at the gym or through work or whatever. And we had a little mom's group, and we met every week, and our kids were all about the same age. And a woman who I knew, who had experienced infertility for a while but was adopting from China, she asked if she could join our group even before the baby came. And I think that was. That was really great for her because otherwise, you know, she just. She just felt like, you know, she wasn't with this group. She wasn't with that group. And so I think, you know, or, you know, I think you can say things like, listen, I'm gonna have these friends over. Everyone's bringing their babies. Is this something you want to do or something you don't want to do? Again, I think bringing it up in the first place, if your friend hasn't told you, but you suspect they're experiencing infertility, that's the really hard part. But, you know, I think just the general, like, everybody, like, is there anything I can pray for you about? Are you doing okay? Like, how's. How are things going? You know, you guys have. You know, I think there are ways to open. Open up without the pressure. I think that's good because, again, they're already putting so much pressure on themselves.
- [57:16]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Before we close here, I just want to bring it all back to the gospel because that really does infuse so much of the book, too. And I just. I was really struck. I was, like, making notes in the margin as I was reading this part. But just the. The concept of carrying your cross and everybody having a different cross to carry. And I just. This quote from Father Sebastian White, really?
- [57:41]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [57:42]
A
Stout. To me, it was so good, and it's so obvious. It's such an innate part of the Gospel. Like, this is not rocket science. This is basic stuff. But as I was reading it, it still just stuck out to me. And I was just kind of meditating on it and pondering how important this is. That quote is. This is just part of it. But it is precisely through the cross that the Lord shows his love for. And I was just thinking about the fact that Jesus died on the cross that he asks us to carry. He does not ask more of us than he asked of his own son. And it's just like, that's a hard thing to grasp, but it's also such a beautiful and comforting thing that the hardest things that we go through are still just, like, he knows our suffering because he's done that. He carried the cross and died on the cross. Yes, yes. As A man. And I just. Yeah, just if you can talk a little bit about what that means to you and how. How that has gotten you through some of these dark.
- [58:43]
B
You know, somebody asked me a similar question recently, and I've been thinking about it even this morning. And, you know, I do think that we've talked a lot about it today, about how infertility or pregnancy, all of it. And just being a woman is just. I mean, it really is true for everyone, but it's just like. Just a fleshy experience, you know, like, we're dealing with. We're dealing with sex. We're dealing with checkups. We're dealing with blood and all kinds of fluids and, you know, things and the limits of your body. And, you know, you can have this will and this heart and the soul that desires motherhood, and their bodies not cooperating, and you're suffering, and you live in this world in time, and you realize that God did that too. God entered the world. God entered time as a man and suffered. And it's. It's humbling. And when you embrace that and pick up your cross and carry it, you feel drawn into Jesus. And we know not to me, he suffered, died on the cross, and the cross is now a symbol of joy and love. And so that's what we find. We find that good news of salvation in that through his suffering. And I think when you just realize the mirror. I mean, this, like, the fact that God became man for us, put suffering in this sort of corporeal way into perspective.
- [60:02]
A
Yeah.
- [60:02]
B
You know. Yeah.
- [60:04]
A
And just the way that he. The example of Christ through his suffering and just, you know, I'm reading in the book of Luke right now, and I've been reading about, you know, that the crowds are pressing in on him, and Jesus is just like, finding a desolate place to pray. Like, he. He is God incarnate. And yet he is just constantly communing with the Father. And then, you know, as he's facing his own crucifixion, which is he. It's his whole mission. Like, it's what he knows he's here to do. He was born to do this thing, and he's still just pleading with the Father that, like, if there's any way. And obviously, you know, when he's talking about the cup passing, he's talking about the cup of God's wrath. Like, he's talking about the punishment for sin. And yet, you know, there's so much of that that we do where we just plead with the Father, like, if there is Any way that you can let this difficult thing that I really don't want to do pass and so that I don't have to experience it. Like, please, please do that. And just like the fact that that cup did not pass, it was poured out fully on Christ and like the redemption that we can have through that reality. And just like on such a smaller scale, but no less real, you know, we experience these things that we plead with the Father, like, if there's any way that we don't have to do this thing, please, you know, and sometimes he takes it away and sometimes he marches us right through it and there is still so much joy and so much redemption and it's just like such a picture of what we experience in Christ, all of that fullness. But we can also experience that as we commune with God and as he does call us to suffer like Christ suffered. And yet there is joy and there is love and there is redemption. And I was reminded of that with your book. It was so encouraging to me. Everybody can get Lee's book now because by the time this airs, it will be out. That's so exciting. Don't, don't sleep on that. Go get a copy of Lee's book. You will not regret it. Lee, where can people buy your book and where can they find you online for more content and just more of your thoughts and to follow you?
- [62:03]
B
Yeah, you can follow me at. You can look at my website, Lee fitzpatricksneed.com you can also follow my work at the catholicassociation.org you can order my book at Barnes Noble or Amazon, but it'd be best if you order it from Sophia Institute Press.
- [62:19]
A
Awesome. That's always good to know. Yeah, don't give your money to Amazon. Give it to give it to Sophia Institute Press. So, Lee, thank you so much for your time today. It was truly a pleasure to talk to you and I'm so excited to hear just everybody's feedback on your book because I know they're going to love it. So thanks again for being here.
- [62:35]
B
Thank you.
- [62:40]
A
Thank you so much for tuning into this week's episode of the Content Kylie Cast. If you haven't done so already, please like and subscribe wherever you get your podcast so you never miss an episode. Leave us a five star review. It's such an easy way for you to help out the show so much and go get a copy of Lee Fitzpatrick Sneed's brand new book, Infertile But Fruitful. It is a delightful read and you will not be disappointed. I will be right back here next week with more. So until then, just remember the truth hurts.
- [63:08]
B
But it won't kill you, Sam.