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Federalist Radio Hour
The Suffering And Victory Of Good Friday With Dr. Kenneth Calvert
00:43:40
On this episode of The Federalist Radio Hour, Dr. Kenneth Calvert, professor of history and director of the Oxford program at Hillsdale College, joins Federalist Senior Elections Correspondent Matt Kittle to consider the significance of Holy Week,...
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- [00:01]
Matt Kittle
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Matt Kittle
And we are back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, senior elections correspondent at the Federalist and your experience Sherpa on today's quest for knowledge. Did my voice break there just a little bit? Sounded like it. Maybe it's adolescents hitting me once again. As always, you can email the show at radio the federalist.com follow us on XDRLST. Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast and of course, to the premiere premium version of our website as well. Our guest today is Dr. Kenneth Calvert, professor of history and director of the Oxford Program at Hillsdale College. We discuss the good news of Good Friday and just what it means today to millions and millions of Christians and the world at large. Good afternoon, sir. Thank you so much for joining us in this edition of the Federalist Radio Hour.
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Dr. Kenneth Calvert
Thank you, Matt. Great to be here.
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Matt Kittle
Well, you heard my squeaky voice. That's just telling you how excited I am to talk about this issue.
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Dr. Kenneth Calvert
That's great.
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Matt Kittle
This story, this good news. And of course, this is Holy Week. So we begin Holy Week according to scripture, with this great celebration on Palm Sunday, the son of God on the back of a donkey that someone has, well, one could say stolen, but some, but somebody in town you know, said, yeah, sure, go ahead, take my donkey. Yeah, the Lord says that that's a good idea. And, and then you have this triumphant experience. Hosanna. Hosanna. And, and the palms and the people shouting their, their messiah is here. It is now. And by the time you move just a handful of days into Thursday night and into Friday of that week, you have a total reversal of mood, you have a total reversal of sentiment from the people of Jerusalem and the surrounding areas at that time. Let us begin there. How do we get from that absolute joy to that dark Despair. And then let us not forget why we call this the good news, the rolling of that stone.
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Dr. Kenneth Calvert
Right? Right. So I think we have to go back and look at Jesus ministry. And he says over and over again, you know, what must happen. In fact, when he establishes the church, Matthew 16 upon the rock of the Gospel, and the proclamation that Peter gives, you know, that the church, he is the Messiah. He says just a few verses later what it is that he's going to have to do. And Peter is just shocked and opposes Jesus on that. And Jesus says, get behind me, Satan. And the idea here is that through this ministry, pointing ahead to this week, Jesus knows exactly who, what he's going to have to do. And you have in the various Gospels, this notion, you know, in Mark, he focuses the abandonment of Jesus by his disciples during this week, you know, not just Judas. Judas is a traitor and turns on Jesus. Judas has all kinds of motives for doing this, likely just the gold and silver that's involved. But his other disciples also abandoned him. You know, it's about suffering. In the Gospel of Mark and in the Gospel of Matthew, all of the Old Testament points ahead to this in the Psalms, to the suffering servant in Isaiah, you know, the idea that he's going to be the suffering servant, it points ahead to him. There's no disparity between what is said about Jesus in the Old Testament and what is fulfilled in his life. And particularly in this week in the Gospel of Luke, there's a focus on his innocence. But there's also this triumphant notion. Even when he's on the cross, the good thief proclaims faith. And Jesus says to him, today you will be with me in paradise. Now, that doesn't mean the thief gets off miraculously. He has to fulfill his punishment and he dies on that cross. But Jesus has promised him because of the faith of that thief. And then of course, in John, just the wonderful high Christology of John, that this is God, this is God dying on the cross for us. And this is one thing that we just cannot ever forget. And all the Gospels proclaim Jesus as God. The evidence is there, but this is God atoning for the sins of his people. All through the Old Testament, that salvation history unfolds from the beginning, from Genesis all the way on through to the Gospels. It's a beautiful fulfillment. It's awful. It's horrible. Within some churches and their services, the liturgy of the Catholic Church calls this a happy fault, that the fall of man in Adam and Eve, that fall, it's not the end that there's going to be a sacrifice made by God himself for his people. And this is what we celebrate. This is what all Christians celebrate. When we're looking at this week that begins with the entry of Jesus into Jerusalem. If I can talk for a moment about Palm Sunday, I think this is really important in Zechariah. It tells us that he's going to come into the Messiah, will enter into Jerusalem on the colt of a donkey. And so what happens there when he sends his disciples to go and to borrow this donkey is he's fulfilling scripture. And there, again, all the Old Testament is fulfilled in Jesus, and particularly in this week. And sometimes you hear scholars and people talk about, well, did Jesus really know who he was? And I would say, of course he does. All through the Gospels, you can see that. But if you have any question about who he knows himself to be, it's in that entrance into Jerusalem on the colt of a donkey. You know, he's showing himself that you know the world to his people, to Jerusalem, that he is the Messiah, and he's come into his capital as the Messiah, just as Zechariah had prophesied. And of course, we see in the Gospels that that's the moment in which the leadership of both the Jews, and then also with Pontius Pilate, they begin to conspire against him. And I think, too, it's important for us to remember that Jesus is not crucified because he's a good guy, because he teaches people to love their neighbor, because, you know, he tells us to pray for one another. He's killed because he says, I am. I am who I am. You know, I am God. I am one with God. The Father and I are one. He uses this kind of language, which in their minds is blasphemous. They also know that there have been other messiahs out there. And every time one of these guys shows up, there's bloodshed and there's just absolute mayhem. And they're afraid because Jesus is so popular. Thousands upon thousands are following him. He's got a tight group around him. He's a threat. He is a threat. And they believe that if they don't do something about him, there'll be another, some sort of revolution or civil war. Of course they don't understand. And even the disciples are confused as to what he's really about. He's not here to overthrow the Romans. This is a much bigger, bigger, much more important, much more eternal message. And so what's going on in this week? He's in the temple preaching and they're very unhappy and they're afraid to touch him because of how many people are following him. But they know that they want to get rid of him. And today on Wednesday of Holy Week, we remember the moment in which Judas goes and collects his 30, 30 silver pieces to, to, to be a traitor to Jesus.
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Matt Kittle
Yes, you know, so, so much to look at and examine in all of these different days. But all of these days tied together by the ultimate covenant, isn't it? It's the ultimate covenant. That's correct. With, with God and his people and the people of the world. Because as you know, so many times I've thought about just what you mentioned before, that thief on the cross, Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom and scolding the, you know, the atheist if you will, or dying on the other side, you know. Yeah, all of the doubt, more doubt maybe than the doubting Thomas, but thinking, you know, that is, that is the ultimate symbol of all of us, no matter how good we think we are at times. You know, it's what Paul would write about later in Romans and talking about, you're not going to get this by the things you do in your life. You're going to get this promise, this fulfillment of this covenant by giving your life to Christ, who is the Son of God, who was, is and will ever be. But, but you mentioned the disciples and there are all of these signs that these guys have read over the years from what is the Old Testament. Of course, all of these prophets who have told them, Jesus himself tells them repeatedly, I am not here for long. There are so many different examples. Why don't they ever fully understand that?
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Dr. Kenneth Calvert
Because, well, I often call the disciples a bunch of dunderheads. And I think that there's something to that. You know, what is truly miraculous.
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Matt Kittle
I love that term by the way. Is that a theological term? It is dunderheads.
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Dr. Kenneth Calvert
Yeah, it's a very high level theological term. Sure, that's right. But you know, Matthew 28, at the end of that Gospel, we're told that he calls the disciples together and they gather together and it says there are 11, which means Judas is gone by then. And this is after the death, this is after the resurrection of Jesus. And then it says in Matthew 28:17 they worshiped him, but some doubted. And you know, frankly that's the whole history of the church right there among those disciples. What is truly beautiful, what is a great blessing, is that in spite of every effort on the part of Christians to put an end to the Gospel, its message and Its spread, it's still there. And the Lord is going to make sure. And then it says in Matthew 28, and he said, go into all the world and preach the gospel. Just preach the gospel. And then he says, do everything that I've told you to do. Baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. You know, he puts into the hands of these apostles his work. And then he, of course, works through them, but they are called to do the work, the apostolic work, and he works through them. And I often remind my students that each of the books of the Bible, each of the books of the New Testament are not written by perfect individuals. They're written by fallen individuals. I mean, St. Paul is so clear about this. But it's what the Holy Spirit is doing through them and in them that is really the miraculous part. And that's the way it is with the church too. And here at the atonement done for our sins by God himself, by the God of the universe himself. What we have here is this truly powerful miraculous event. And then working through his church of proclaiming that atonement. And then, of course, the wonderful resurrection from the dead. St. Paul talks about the resurrection. If it didn't happen, we're fools. Right. But he also says, I boast in nothing but Christ and him crucified. That's one of the wonderful, just ideas that we constantly have to remind ourselves of that there's nothing we can boast in but his crucifixion, his atonement. And then if he doesn't rise from the dead, you know, we're still dead.
- [14:43]
Matt Kittle
That's right.
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Dr. Kenneth Calvert
He has conquered death. And so this week, it's a difficult thing. I mean, we call it Holy Week, or we call it Easter week. Actually Easter, if you want to talk about that word. I'd love to. It's not a particularly good word in my mind. But anyway, we talk about, about the Passover and the Paschal feast is really what we should call it. This is what happens this week. This is what we celebrate. And all of time, all of salvation history points ahead to this week. Yeah, yeah.
- [15:16]
Matt Kittle
Well, and you're right. I mean, this is the Passover week. That's what Jesus and his followers were celebrating. And they were celebrating. Now think about that in Matthew, Matthew 26. Now, as they were eating, Jesus took bread and after blessing it, broke it and gave it to the disciples and said, right, Take, eat. This is my body, right? And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them saying, Drink of it, all of you. For this is my blood of the covenant. Yeah. Which is of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you, right, I think I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
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Dr. Kenneth Calvert
Right.
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Matt Kittle
Those words, of course, have resonated through times since that very moment. What is it? What. What does all of that mean? Because, you know, for those of us in the, you know, the secular world, we think of that and we go, what is. What is Jesus saying? What. What is he talking about? This is my blood. My blood. You know, take the. This is my body. But this. This is as. As we talked about. This is the covenant. This is exactly what he is about to do for mankind.
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Dr. Kenneth Calvert
That's right. And John the Baptist proclaims him before he baptizes Jesus as the Lamb of God. This is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. What an amazing and remarkable message. And then on the other end, during Paul's work with the Corinthians, he says in 1 Corinthians 11, if they don't know the meaning of this meal and they don't give it the highest of regard, their souls are in danger. So it is at the center of this is this meal that had been prophesied from the time of the exile or the exodus. Excuse me, from Egypt and then up to the time of Jesus and beyond. And we are told, do this every time you meet to remember, you know, what Jesus's message, what this meal, what this new covenant is all about. Yeah, yeah.
- [17:41]
Matt Kittle
Very powerful. So you mentioned before the term Easter.
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Dr. Kenneth Calvert
Right.
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Matt Kittle
Same. There are these terms, and I'd like you to go into Easter, this term coming up for the day of Passover, which we in the Christian faith refer to as Maundy Thursday. And then there, of course, is the day of the crucifixion.
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Dr. Kenneth Calvert
Right.
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Matt Kittle
Is Good Friday. And again, it sounds, you know, it's such a violent moment in time. How can that be good? It's why this is being done and what happens next is why it's so good.
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Dr. Kenneth Calvert
Right, right. And so, you know, we live very much in a time in which we want everything to be happy and wonderful and easy. Right. What is really interesting, and you see this in literature, you see this in the movies, that the idea of something being easy is really not part of the heroic. And I'm not trying to put Jesus as just simply a human heroic level, but that suffering and Struggle on behalf of something, on behalf of someone, say a soldier on behalf of the United States who suffers and struggles and dies for the United States. You know, you have this in Scripture. There may be someone who would die for a good man. There might be someone who would die for someone who is noble. But who's going to die for a bunch of evil people, right? Who's going to die for a bunch of sinners? And this is the idea in Scripture that while we were yet sinners, while we were really without knowledge, God does this on our behalf. And so this is where many call it this week, Holy Week, call it Good Friday, Good Friday. Why Good Friday? Because there was, you know, God suffered and bled and died on our behalf. He made that good, right? In his suffering, in his struggle, he made that a good day for us. Maundy Thursday. The idea in which, really, Maundy comes from the word mandatum, or mandate or command. And he gives this command, a new commandment. I give you you. That you love one another. And this, you know, really being fulfilled in the work of Jesus. That Maundy Thursday is in the minds and in the practices of many Christians, Anglican or Orthodox or Catholic. It's the first of three days, Thursday, in which that new commandment is given. And Jesus goes to suffer, is tortured, put on trial by these earthly powers, you know, the Sanhedrin or Herod's Antipas, who's kind of a knucklehead. And there's that, you know, another theological term and, and, and. And Pontius Pilate, who, really, he's an interesting story, too, as a Roman, really, governor just has kind of an interesting life. He's already in trouble with the imperial powers, but, you know, he's not really sure what to do with this guy, right? And so he bows to the proclamation of the local rulers who want this man dead. And let me throw in one other little part here that people sometimes overlook. There was another guy on trial who was in prison named Barabbas, right?
- [21:38]
Matt Kittle
Who was Barabbas?
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Dr. Kenneth Calvert
Well, so that's the thing. Who is that third cross for before Jesus comes along, before they put him on trial? And many theologians believe that that third cross was actually for Barabbas. Now, Barabbas, the name means son of the Father. Is this a guy who was one of these pretend messiahs? And likely he was, and they were going to kill him. And the irony of this account in the Gospels is that the false Messiah, Barabbas gets off, the true king of the universe, the true king of the Jews, is Sacrificed is crucified. And so that's another part of this whole kind of very beautiful but complex set of accounts that brings all of this together. The rejection of God, the rejection of the true Messiah and in favor of a false Messiah.
- [22:49]
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- [23:27]
Matt Kittle
Our guest today is Dr. Kenneth Calvert, professor of history and director of the Oxford program at Hillsdale College. We're discussing the good news of Good Friday. You had. You had, you know, these disciples and I think about so many interesting lives. I, I only wish the Gospels would give us more light into these people because they're so fascinating to me.
- [23:51]
Dr. Kenneth Calvert
Right.
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Matt Kittle
Reading, you know, reading the New Testament and then, you know, we've seen the movies and the shows over the years and of course they try to fill in the details that we don't necessarily have. But I think about the, the disciple who is best known, arguably best known, and that's Peter.
- [24:11]
Dr. Kenneth Calvert
Right.
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Matt Kittle
Just what a complex guy.
- [24:14]
Dr. Kenneth Calvert
Yeah.
- [24:14]
Matt Kittle
He was to build a church upon. Right, right. I mean, this is the guy who loved Jesus. He was so special to Jesus, yet by the time the crowd or the cock crowed three times, he denied him.
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Dr. Kenneth Calvert
Right.
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Matt Kittle
I mean, this, this guy is all of these, these people are illustrative of our own faults and failures. And I think that's one of the, the really compelling and beautiful parts of, of the greatest story ever told.
- [24:48]
Dr. Kenneth Calvert
Right. So you know, you begin with Eliakim in Isaiah, who is given the keys of the kingdom by Hezekiah. Eliakim is choose chosen as the prime minister of Hezekiah. And anyone hearing Jesus say to Peter, you know, I give you the keys, that what he's doing here is making Peter his prime minister. And in every list of the disciples, Peter is always first. But what's very clear is that that doesn't mean that Peter is perfect in everything he says. Right. Jesus says, get behind me, Satan. Peter gets himself, he's impetuous, gets himself in trouble all the time. And at Jesus's crucifixion, It's not Peter at the cross. Peter has abandoned him. It's John who follows Jesus to the cross. John and Mary. And Mary's sister, also named Mary. There are a lot of Marys flying around in that whole, whole family.
- [25:51]
Matt Kittle
It's like the Bob Newhart show, you know, and we got my. I'm Larry and Larry, this is my brother. I'm Darryl, this is my brother Larry. And Larry. Yeah, this is the case. It's Marion, Mary.
- [26:01]
Dr. Kenneth Calvert
That's exactly right. That kind of thing. But. And then, you know, at the end of the Gospel of John, John 21, Jesus sits down with Peter and this is. He's the only one that Jesus talks to like this. He says, peter, do you love me? You know, feed my sheep. Do you love me? Feed my sheep. Do you love me? Feed my sheep. And so, you know, there is a reconciliation that takes place after Peter's fall away and rejection of Jesus and his abandonment. I don't know if it was a rejection, but it was an abandonment of Jesus. And then in the Gospel of. Or, excuse me, in the Book of Acts, I believe it's in chapter five, we find Peter, you know, passing judgment on two people who, Ananias and Sapphira, who lied to them about, you know, giving things to the Church. And in the Book of Acts, you see the beginnings of the leadership of the Church and the laying on of hands to establish new leadership. But you're right, you don't have the story of these disciples. We know about Peter, we know about Paul. Both die at Rome during the time of Nero. And that's some very strong evidence there, including the bones of Peter and Paul. And then we have. Have some evidence of Thomas going as far east as India, Mark at Alexandria, Andrew in the east, in Turkey. So there are some stories that have some good evidence in them. And then finally John, the Gospel writer who ends up near Ephesus and down at Patmos. I think I. I would argue it's the same John as the John of the Apocalypse. But whatever the case, he goes on to teach a number of people. A man named Polycarp of Smyrna, Ignatius of Antioch. A number of early leaders are taught by John, and we have their writings. And so we have some understanding of who they are. Getting back to Easter, all of them, and all of the writings of these early Christians that we have, whether it be Clement of Rome or Polycarp of Smyrna, Ignatius of Antioch, a guy named Irenaeus of Lyon in France or Gaul in those days, another guy, Justin of Neapolis often called Justin the Martyr. All of them point back to the centrality of that paschal week, of that week in which Jesus dies and rises from the dead. And the central meaning of that for the Christian message, that is the proclamation that he died and he rose from the dead for us. Just, just. And, and you know, these guys, if they're making this up, Matt, if this is just a story that they're making up, how is it that they would go to this, the ends of the earth and die?
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Matt Kittle
Oh my goodness, yes.
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Dr. Kenneth Calvert
You know, they, they believed that what they saw was true. And because they do, I do too. I also believe because I know Jesus. But you know, there's just so much good evidence there for it. Yeah.
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Matt Kittle
I'll tell you what, if, if, if they didn't believe this, you know, and again, they tell the story. They are witnesses. And so they are witnesses to us for, you know, for forever.
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Dr. Kenneth Calvert
Right?
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Matt Kittle
But these, these guys died some horrible deaths. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, and please correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't it just John was the only one who died of natural causes?
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Dr. Kenneth Calvert
Right.
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Matt Kittle
All of these, all of these disciples were martyred in the most horrific ways you can possibly imagine.
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Dr. Kenneth Calvert
Yeah.
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Matt Kittle
And, and that was their full understanding as they wandered, you know, around the world to bring this good news to the people. That was their full recognition, their full experience, right. Of what it means to live the life of Christ and then to do this. And this is what I wanted to ask you, this is that, that Monday, Thursday commandment that mandate, love one another as I have loved you. We always fall short. How do you do that? How do we even get close to that?
- [30:43]
Dr. Kenneth Calvert
Right? It means an abandonment of our pride and abandonment of our narcissism, of our self serving narcissism. It means loving others in the way that Christ loved us. And how did he love us? He served us, he died for us. You know, this is true in Ephesians 5 with a husband and wife. You know, how is a husband to treat his wife as he's to love her as Christ loved the church. And what does that mean? That a husband dies for his wife. Right. And it is a self giving. I think we often forget that again, this is the God of the universe, not just some local Jupiter or Zeus. We're talking about the God of the universe across the span of timelessness and eternity that we are just beginning to touch on in our, in our sciences, right? This is the God of the universe who has done this, who has died for us. In my, in my Christmas lectures, I often talk about that baby in the manger was also still a member of the Trinity, you know, which, which was not only continually creating but also keeping in good order all of the universe. What a wonderful idea. What a wonderful truth. And that's true for the Atonement. So what are these men dying for? You know, they're dying for that. And I don't think there's anything better that you can actually die for. And so many of the Christian martyrs down through the ages and even in the modern day, we've had huge, huge numbers of martyrs in the modern day, all of them dying for the truth of who Christ is and what he's done for us. And this week is all about that. And again, it's not a tragedy. It's not a tragedy, it's a comedy. And what I mean by that, not ha ha, comedy, but in the theatrical term of comedy, that it has a good ending, a good and glorious heavenly, happy ending. And it can only have that because of the work of Christ, the work
- [32:57]
Matt Kittle
of God, the happiest of all endings. No doubt about it.
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Dr. Kenneth Calvert
Yeah.
- [33:02]
Matt Kittle
So I want to talk about that. In relation today, we've gotten a survey, a sense of this Holy Week.
- [33:08]
Dr. Kenneth Calvert
Yeah.
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Matt Kittle
And obviously through that, the mission of Christ on earth in the, what, short three span of three years in which he took his ministry? Obviously, we don't know much, much, not much is written about, you know, his, his early life and the intervening time period. But what does, what does Good Friday, what does Holy Week mean to us today? And I say that in context. We're losing so much of the reason this, this great Republic, and it's 250 years was, was created and how it was created. It was the, the life and times of people for the last 2000 plus years have been made immeasurably better because Christ walked the earth, he fulfilled the prophecies, he fulfilled the covenant, and he lives and reigns now and forever. But it's such a secular world. How does that story still communicate to such a secular world?
- [34:21]
Dr. Kenneth Calvert
Yeah, so, you know, we talk about this. I have a very strong feeling that we don't know even a tenth of what the Lord is doing right now. You know, our press, with present company excluded, of course, our press, our media, they don't like this story. They don't like to pay attention to it. You know, you see sometimes these, these athletes who praise Jesus for what they do and they get, they get, you know, they get punished for that. Yes, you can say anything else. But you can't say that, right? And so I think that there is a, a kind of radio silence of sorts out there of people trying to inhibit the message. But Jesus can't be stopped, right? God can't be stopped. I'm at a college where I see just hundreds of great Christian kids who are motivated, are intelligent and are ready to get out there and do the good work. I support a number of organizations across the country who, at colleges and universities across the country are just going gangbusters. I think Charlie Kirk was someone who really hit a nerve. You know, he really struck a chord and young people were ready to listen to that. There's all kinds of numbers of young people coming into the church, whether it be Protestant or Catholic or Anglican. There's kind of a renewal all over the place. I just came back from Europe and I could see it there. The church I was at, well, the two churches I attended were packed front to back. And they were packed front to back, not just with old gray heads like mine, but with young families and young people. And they're enthusiastically worshiping Christ. So, you know, it's not over and there's a lot more that's going on and going to happen. And you know, again, the Lord is just not going to let his church go away and die and his message go away and die.
- [36:42]
Matt Kittle
Do you, do you think we're in the middle of a reawakening? I asked that because I was in Phoenix recently surrounded by some very faithful people. And one of the questions that came up in our conversation was there is a belief that we are in yet another. We haven't had too many of them that, you know, we can define, but we're in, we're in a modern day reawakening of the importance of all of that. Do you believe that to be the case?
- [37:09]
Dr. Kenneth Calvert
It could very well be the case. You know, again, I'm not even going to pretend to know what the Lord is doing. I can only judge on my perceptions and what I see and hear and read. And I have to say I think I agree with that. I think there's something going on here. And, you know, for young people there's so much confusion, you know, about, you know, are you a man or a woman? What is marriage about? What are children about? I mean, children are our future and everybody kind of loves and desires to have children, but we're told that, you know, they're a hindrance to our happiness or something. When, you know, I have three children and now three granddaughters and that's not a hindrance to my happiness at all. You know, just loved him to death. And I just, I just, I have to tell you, I think that there's a natural as well as just a God given response to all the negativity that's out there, particularly regarding family. You know, people desire to have family, and so I think that's part of it as well.
- [38:22]
Matt Kittle
Yeah. I never did understand. I still can't understand people that don't want to have children and dogs around both.
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Dr. Kenneth Calvert
Yeah.
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Matt Kittle
It's hard for me to imagine. I have three children myself. And, you know, I have made, I think I can count six good decisions in my life. And they, you know, four of them involve my family.
- [38:48]
Dr. Kenneth Calvert
That's right.
- [38:48]
Matt Kittle
Sure. So let me. Let's. Let's go to that, that dark hour as we close.
- [38:54]
Dr. Kenneth Calvert
Okay.
- [38:55]
Matt Kittle
As Mark tells us, and when the sixth hour had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. And at the ninth hour, Jesus cried with a loud voice, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
- [39:14]
Dr. Kenneth Calvert
Right.
- [39:14]
Matt Kittle
What do you take that to mean? Because there's been a lot made of that. Is this, is this the Christ, the Son of God, the Son of man, doubting God, His Father in heaven? And I, I know the, the answer to that is, is no, but you can understand where the question comes up.
- [39:37]
Dr. Kenneth Calvert
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, there's so much in the Gospels that point to perhaps a moment or statement that's made or question that's given where Jesus does not give an answer. When will all things come to an end? He says, only the Father knows that. And so the idea here is that this is God in human form. And so you see both his divinity and his profound humanity.
- [40:08]
Matt Kittle
Yes.
- [40:09]
Dr. Kenneth Calvert
You know, he was given flesh by his mother, the same way that all of us are given flesh by our mothers. And what is really important in that is that he also has all of the same emotions, the feelings, the hurts that come with being a human being. We are told that he was tested and he didn't fail in any of that. And I think even on the cross, why have you abandoned me? I think that in that moment, he experiences as the human Messiah, human Christ. What he is experiencing is the full weight of all of the sins of the world that are coming down upon him and for which he is paying in that moment. You know, you think about all of those sins and just even my sins, you know, I'm thinking, wow, that would be a lot of pain. But in all of that, in that moment, he cries out you know, it's interesting that one of the Roman skeptics of Christianity, a guy named Celsus of Alexandria, he says because he believes that the God, you know, the high God of the universe, has no feelings, has no emotion, has no jealousy or hatred or love, that this God is beyond all of those things because he can't feel those things. He has to be perfect and unfeeling. And what we see here on the cross is God incarnate actually showing his pain, his suffering, his love for humanity and his sense of abandonment that only he could pay the price that he's paying at that moment. It could only be Christ, right? And so, yeah, he's all alone up there and he's paying the price that only he can pay. And so it's a remarkable moment that the Romans and this guy Celsus saw this as showing that he was weak, that he was somehow weak, that he cried out. Because Celsus, as a stoic, believed that God would never cry out like that. But Jesus is crying out because he does indeed have the weight of all human sin upon him and he is suffering for them, for us. Celsus just doesn't understand what this moment means. And, you know, quite often we don't understand it. And, you know, I think that if we look at that and say, you know, maybe he wasn't God after all, I think we have to understand that as God incarnate, as God as a human being. Yeah, he's going to feel all of that and it makes.
- [42:58]
Matt Kittle
It makes him more God to me.
- [43:00]
Dr. Kenneth Calvert
Yeah.
- [43:01]
Matt Kittle
I can't. I can't begin to, you know, explain how others feel about it. They tell me, but that's a very personal thing to me. That moment makes him more holy to me. And in fact, if you think about that moment, and we should reflect upon that moment, moment during this Holy Week, it breaks my heart to think about how much he endured for the sake of the sinner. All of us. And Right. That is the good news.
- [43:36]
Dr. Kenneth Calvert
Yeah, absolutely.
- [43:37]
Matt Kittle
Of Good Friday. Yes, sir. Well, another extraordinary conversation. I very much appreciate your time and I always. I always enjoy our conversations.
- [43:47]
Dr. Kenneth Calvert
Happy to do it. I enjoy it, too. Thanks.
- [43:50]
Matt Kittle
Thanks to My guest today, Dr. Kenneth Calvert, professor of History and director of the Oxford Program at Hillsdale College. You've been listening to another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, senior elections correspondent at the Federalist. We'll be back soon with more. Until then, stay lovers of freedom and anxious for the Fr. Sam.