← Federalist Radio Hour
Federalist Radio Hour
There's Nothing Stopping Blue States From Letting Noncitizens Vote -- Yet
00:50:03
On this episode of The Federalist Radio Hour, Avi Fortenberry, president of Americans for Citizen Voting, joins Federalist Elections Correspondent Matt Kittle to weigh in on the citizenship voting debate and explain why using a constitutional...
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A
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B
Foreign. We are back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, senior elections correspondent at the Federalist and your experience Sherpa on today's quest for knowledge. As always, you can email the show at radio@the federalist.com follow us on XDRLST. Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast and of course, to the premium version of our website as well. Our guest today is Abby Fortenberry, president of Americans for Citizen Voting, an election integrity organization dedicated to ensuring that only United States citizens can legally vote in elections at all levels, not just in federal elections. Abby, thank you so much for joining us on this edition of the Federalist Radio Hour.
- [02:03]
A
Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
- [02:06]
B
Absolutely. You know, before we get into the, the meat and potatoes of the Save America act, previously the, the Save act, and of course, the laziness and the squishiness of Republicans in the Senate. Because I don't know if the Save America act has any chance with these folks at this point, but I wanted to get into your story because you know, all of what we're talking about here. This, these issues of election integrity involving citizens only, citizens voting in our elections. You come from a, you know, from an immigration standpoint, little perspective on that, is that your backstory is you became a US Citizen and you did it the right way, just like so many millions of Americans have done over the years. And therein lies the difference. And I think you have a different perspective on this than, you know, the members of Congress, quite frankly. Tell us a little bit about how you how you got into advocating for citizen only voting and where you come from?
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A
Well, I actually became involved in this because the organization had reached out to me. Americans for Citizen Voting had reached out to me to particularly tell my story, simply because I had become a citizen, as you mentioned, legally through the right channels, but also in my adult years. So when my mother and I came from Brazil, it was because in Brazil she had met my stepdad, who is an American. And he and my mother dated for three weeks while he was in Brazil on business and then subsequently wrote letters back and forth for three years. And after that span of time, you know, they had each dated other people and he would send my mom mixtapes and gifts or, you know, send her flowers. It was, it was a very sweet romance. They realized a problem.
- [04:25]
B
Mixtapes. Did you say this was serious then? If he is getting involved in the mixtapes.
- [04:30]
A
Yeah, I know, and, and sending them internationally. So, you know, it just gives adage to. If he wanted to, he would, you know.
- [04:37]
B
Yeah, exactly. Can I ask you real quickly, what, what were on the mixtapes? I. I always like to know as a child of the 80s and of the mixtape generation, I always like to know what, what folks are putting on their, their individual mixtapes.
- [04:53]
A
Well, you know, my dad is really big into 60s and 70s music, particularly the songwriter era. So that's everything I grew up on. And what's really fun about it is that a lot of these songs, like one of them is, and now I forget the artist. Is it George Thorogood, if you could read my mind.
- [05:12]
B
Oh no, that's Gordon Lightfoot. Sure. Yes, the happy Canadian.
- [05:17]
A
But I, I knew that melody before I ever knew English. So I couldn't understand English. And it wasn't until, you know, because I would hear that all through my childhood and it wasn't until my adult years when I listened to the song again that I was like, oh my word, what a beautiful song. Because all I had ever remembered was the melody. But yeah, it was a lot of singers and songwriters. And what I thought was sweet is he really played the long game. He sent her one mixtape, it was called Various one. And then, you know, a couple months later he sent her another mixtape. It was various too. So I mean this is like multi album mixtape.
- [05:54]
B
That's. That is beautiful. And he picked. It sounds like he picked some great artists. I would imagine perhaps the Edmund Fitzgerald showed up as well from Gordon Lightfoot. But. So all. So this budding romance is taking place. And I remember you talking about this at an event in Washington D.C. you said your mother at the time didn't even have her own landline. And so it was. It was all, you know, letters and mixtapes and that sort of thing.
- [06:24]
A
Yeah, and my mom still has those letters to this day. They are. They're all in a. In a binder, you know, in. In little pocke sleeves, and every single one of them is handwritten. My dad has this beautiful cursive penmanship, which you just don't see anymore either. And, you know, sometimes it was photos and cards. But what I thought was really lovely is that the reason my mom even decided to come here. So this would have been October of 1988. And the reason my mom decided to come here was because my dad made her no promises. It was like, hey, why don't you and your daughter come and, you know, just visit? Let's see how it goes. Let's see how things are. So, you know, it wasn't the kind of thing that my mom could turn down simply because it's the man she's been pining over for three years, but also a tremendous opportunity to come to this country. And so we did. She calls it our boativersary. The day we came off the boat, we did not come by boat, but I think it's really sweet. My mom is probably one of the funniest people I know, and I think it just adds to the comedic value that she has a beautiful Brazilian accent. But she always celebrates our boater anniversary every October, you know, when. When we came to the country, because it was a huge deal. And so that Christmas. So this would have been Christmas of 88. My dad, who is from Wisconsin originally, he's from a small town called Park Falls. And so he brought.
- [07:53]
B
Well, I know it well.
- [07:55]
A
That's awesome. So he brought us to Park Falls, and we got to meet all of, you know, his extended family. And after that Christmas, he said to my mom, you know, I loved having you and Abby at Christmas, and I never want to spend a Christmas without you guys. So they got married March, and we've been together ever since. So, you know, he is. He's the person I refer to as my dad, because my biological father, though I know him, he was never really present in my life. And for me, the title of dad is something that's earned. And so. So the other gentleman I refer to as my biological father and, you know, my American dad is the guy that raised me.
- [08:40]
B
Well, we have three things in common right off the top. The first is what we're going to spend the duration of our conversation, talking about, and that is citizens only voting election integrity at its core. The other two things we have in common is I grew up in Wisconsin in a small town, southwestern Wisconsin, in the university town called Platteville, the University of Wisconsin, Platteville in southwest, as I said, the southwestern part of the state. And I also grew up with a stepfather who was my dad. My. My dad, biological father. I love him. My parents have passed away, but, you know, he was not present, very present in my life, and my stepfather was. And, you know, he. He is the guy who. Who raised me. He is the guy that I look up to still to this day. He is the guy who, you know, set the example of what being a man was about, you know, and his beliefs, his faith, first and foremost, his love of family, all of that. So that's something we have in common as well.
- [09:53]
A
I love that. And, you know, on the note of, you know, the title of dad being earned by the man that put forth, you know, the effort and the time and the love and the attention, I think that segues beautifully into citizenship because you fast forward to my life when I turned 18, and mind you, my mom, by marrying my dad, she and I each had green cards and we were allowed to live and work in the country indefinitely. So there was no reason for me to get my citizenship apart from the right to vote. And so again, when I turned 18, and the political climate is changing and my friends are becoming involved in things, it occurs to me like, oh, I can't weigh in. And much like the dad title is given to my stepdad because he put in all of that effort, my allegiance is to this country because America raised me, and I moved here when I was six years old. So any memory that I have, really of my life is in the US and while I do still have family in Brazil and I visit whenever I have the opportunity, I do speak Portuguese. You know, America is it for me. It's such an amazing country. The opportunities that it affords people are tremendous. And I understand why people would want to come here and why they would want to be a part of it. And one of the conversations my mom and I had was that had she never met my dad in Brazil, that she and I would have stayed in Brazil, you know, we would not have illegally come to the country, because she's the type of person that's, you know, you do what you can with where you are and what you have kind of a person. So I. I really admire that about her, and I admire the citizenship process in a way that I wouldn't have had I been born in this country.
- [11:55]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I see that. And it is all tied in to this sense of allegiance to the United States of America as citizens, as individuals come to this country and then want to be citizens of the country. But unfortunately, what I have seen, and I think a lot of us have witnessed over the last several years in this country, particularly during the Biden administration, when you had this massive, let's call it what it, what it was, an invasion. Invasion that was by design, cynically, I, I think, quite frankly, from the Democratic Party. But you had, you have a lot of people who have come to this country that have little or no allegiance to this country. And that, I think has a lot to do with why so many people, the vast majority of Americans, want to make sure that only citizens vote in our elections. And that's, that's exactly, I think it's in the title of your organization. It's exactly what you do. Do you have the same sense as you travel around and talk to people about this frustration about, you know, massive illegal immigration and what it means ultimately to this republic?
- [13:17]
A
Absolutely. And I, I think one of the biggest things as I've participated in this organization, which, you know, by the way, I do as a project, I'm really impassioned by this cause. And one of the things that I think surprised me most is that a lot of Americans don't realize that right now where we currently stand, the Constitution does not explicitly say that only a US Citizen can vote in federal elections. So I know that, you know, partisanship exists and sides keep blaming each other. And I know one of the things the Democrats have said is that, you know, Republicans even talking about this, it's all a fear tactic and they're fear mongering. This isn't actually happening. But the truth of it is, is it not only is it occurring, but again, our Constitution doesn't say that only a US Citizen can vote. And I think that's an assumption that a lot of Americans are operating under. And so as we're talking to people, you know, we've realized this is a nonpartisan issue. I mean, we're talking 9010 support. And how many issues can you say that? And even naturalized citizens overwhelmingly support this, you know, for the same reasons that I do, where as you go through the citizenship process, you do gain a new appreciation and understanding of not only our Constitution and our, you know, our branches of government, but also how you can make an impact. So I think that's really Important.
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B
I think you spell it all out in a new op ed that appeared in Real Clear Politics. I'll just read the opening here because I think this pretty much sums up where you are going, what your philosophy is on this. You write again in Real Clear Politics. The past several weeks have been an extended debate in Congress. There has been an extended debate and among the American people regarding the Save America Act. You say, I understand the public's desire to make our elections more secure, but doing so will require efforts more robust than enacting statutory changes via the Save America Act. Truly secure elections will require amending the United States Constitution itself for the very reasons you just mentioned. Because just like in so many states across this country, the US Federal Constitution does not spell out exactly definitively, you know, what we're talking about here.
- [16:07]
A
That's exactly right and I'm glad you brought that up because the SAVE act is actually about enforcement. So it's focusing on verifying citizenship during voter reg, but then it's a statute, meaning that it can be changed or repealed depending on who's in power. And so what we are trying to do with house Joint Resolution 152 is we are trying to prevent states from legalizing noncitizen voting. We are determining who is allowed to vote to begin with.
- [16:45]
B
That is a good point and I guess I want to start there too because I think about Virginia in particular and believe me, it's not the only leftist run state that we have that's you know, delving into this area. In, in Virginia you have a governor and a legislative branch, you know, clearly moving that state farther and farther to the left and I think closer and closer to non citizens voting in elections. But I guess the question is the language is not in the Constitution. Why haven't we seen some of these Democrat states try to push this? I know we've seen some cities, obviously states can indeed and do, I should say local communities have allowed non citizens to vote. I think of Maryland, I think of Vermont and Washington D.C. yes, our nation's capital. But I would think given as far left on this issue as Democrats have been, that they would have tried this approach before saying, well it's not in the Constitution, we think non citizens should vote. Why haven't we seen that?
- [18:11]
A
You know, I, I don't think that that has been publicly called out. But who's to say that that's not the back end strategy? Because the, is that because of the way our Constitution is currently written with the 17th Amendment, Article 1, Section 2, all of this Basically it's tied to who can vote in state legislation, legislative elections. And what happens is if a state allows a non citizen to vote in their state election, then that raises constitutional question about federal elections too because essentially they could be legally required to allow the federal election to happen if the state allowed the noncitizen vote to happen at the smaller level. So again, I don't know that it's been a public call out, but I wouldn't doubt it if that wasn't the tactic on the back end. Even with, as you pointed out, Biden opening the gates wide, getting that, that non citizenship into the country kind of facilitates that process.
- [19:25]
B
Oh yeah, no doubt about it. And that's why I say it was a cynical approach. They, they knew exactly what they were doing that was by design to let millions of non citizens in and then ultimately say you owe us and, and you're going to pay us back at the polls when we make you eligible to vote. You know, and, and all of that said, you have at the same time as Democrats try to, at every level try to fight this movement, the Save America act at the state level and trying to amend constitutions to spell out the language that only citizens can vote. You have, you keep hearing from Democrats arguing, hey, hey, it's already illegal for non citizens to vote in the election. They have to check a box, Avi. And they, and it's, you know, these folks are honorable to begin with and so we can trust this honor system that they wouldn't lie. And if they do lie and they are non citizens and they say they're citizens, then they can be charged with a felony and go to prison for a year. Of course that never ever happens because once a vote is cast, first and foremost that vote is cast and you don't take that vote back. Secondly, it's very difficult to, you know, find people non citizens. It's just the process is just not open to that. So. But what do you say about that defense? If they keep saying hey, it's already illegal, then are you, are you concerned that, that they, they may do this end around if you will, with the lack of language in the Constitution?
- [21:18]
A
Well, call me old fashioned, but I believe that federal elections deserve constitutional clarity. And the fact is is we don't have that right now, period. End of story. So you could argue that it's implied. Great. I want it in writing. And isn't that ultimately what the Constitution is about? I mean this country wasn't founded on the honor system, right? We, we wrote it all down and that's what the law of the land is. So I, I believe that the U.S. citizen voting amendment provides that constitutional clarity. I mean, you know, if a state is allowing a non citizen to vote in their legislative election, then those non citizens are allowed to vote in the federal election. That's how our Constitution currently reads via Article 1, Section 2 of the 17th Amendment. So you can argue this every which way you want, but ultimately this is a nonpartisan issue. And you can't say the same for the SAVE Act. The SAVE act is clearly partisan, but if people want to read house Joint Resolution 152, it's a half page sheet. I mean it's very clear, it's very clearly stated. There's nothing additional snuck in there for the sake of benefiting one party or another. And again, it's universally agreed upon that this should be already in place. A lot of people are operating under the false assumption that this already exists. And so I think as we're kind of bringing light to the issue, more and more people are getting on board and saying, yes, how can I support this? I'm 100% in favor of this.
- [23:03]
B
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- [25:07]
A
Yes, that is true, but I will say that we're working on this on a state level as well. So states are hopping on board and as we have, you know, larger state participation, then obviously that's going to make it easier. But essentially we would need, I think, a 2 3rd majority vote in the House and then it would move to the Senate and then the popular vote. But honestly, I don't believe that it's out of the question. I actually think that we're closer to this than we have been to any other issue recently, simply because of the political climate. And again, because this is a nonpartisan issue and because we're a nonpartisan organization, I think that only strengthens our efforts. I think a lot of American people are looking more for what things do we have in common versus what types of things divide us. And so this gives us an opportunity to kind of unite as a country and put things the way we all assumed they were, if that makes sense. You know, again, if you went around and polled Americans and asked, you know, can a non citizen vote? Most people are going to say no, of course not. And then you say, well, how, how do you know that that's true? And they, they would say, well, it's in the Constitution, but it isn't. And that's what we're wanting to amend.
- [26:34]
B
Yeah, I guess. As a follow up to that, do you think that an amendment to the Constitution, changing the constitutional language on this front and making sure that it is absolutely clear in the Constitution, do you think that has a better chance than the Save America act? Which of course, as we know, I mean, it's been. The Save America act was passed multiple times in the House. Just about every Democrat voted against it, but the House has moved it. The Senate cannot get this thing done and they argue it's because of the filibuster and all of these sorts of things. I would argue that yes, there's. The filibuster cannot be denied here, but I believe it's the lack of backbone from a number of Republicans, the Senate. But you say that this, this path to amendment would be easier than, than passing the Save America Act?
- [27:29]
A
Absolutely. Not only easier, but what people forget about the SAVE act is not only is it just about enforcement, right? It's, it's focusing on verifying citizenship during voter registration, but also it's a statute. So all of this song and dance that we're going through. I mean, the reality is, is that it can shift with political. So you know, unlike the SAVE act, the US Citizens Voting amendment is answering the foundational question of who is eligible to vote in federal elections. And then it's putting that into the Constitution where it's not going to shift. Over the years it's in there, it's amended and now it's solid again. You know, people on both, I won't even say both because honestly it's probably a spectrum politically, but people on all sides of political leanings are in agreement that only a citizen should vote. And again, I'm by no means opposed to immigration, being myself a naturalized citizen. But the reality of it is that there is weight to voting in a federal election. And if you're not elected, if your allegiance hasn't been declared to this country, I don't think you should have the right to weigh in. And you know, you can live here, work here, just like I did with my green card. You can enjoy all of the public services that you receive from being a tax paying citizen again. All of which I did throughout, you know, my upbringing. But then at age 21, when I finally got my citizenship, now I have the right to weigh in on where this country is headed because I became a part of the F. Right. I entered the inner sanctum, the family of being a United States citizen. You know, my husband and I were joking the other night and I told him that, that ultimately what citizenship means to me and not that I anticipate in any way that this would ever happen, but ultimately, if it's a, if it's a war between Brazil and the United States, I'm on the US side. That's what my citizenship means to me. Right? Is that my allegiance is to this country, regardless of where I was born. And that's what it means to be, you know, a natural citizen. This isn't my place of birth, but it is my choice of allegiance.
- [29:54]
B
That's right. And as we talked about before, not everybody has that sense of their adopted country, if you will. And we saw that with so many national flags, you know, protesting immigration law enforcement in this country over the last several months. And I think that that that is telling to a lot of Americans about how important citizen only voting is. But you mentioned, you know, a state, a statute of any kind at the federal level, state level, that can be changed with a change in the legislature, a change in the executive branch to sign that legislation, just like it is with executive orders. And that's what we've seen over the last year plus of Trump 2.0, a lot of, I believe, very, very good and solid election integrity reforms. But they're just executive orders. And as we know, Trump's executive orders from his first term were thrown out almost immediately by his successor.
- [31:06]
A
Yeah, and honestly, as a mother of four, my personal opinion, and this has nothing to do with any organization I'm affiliated, but my personal opinion is when my kids can't share a toy, you know, I either take it away or I split time between the kids that are fighting. Right. And in the same way, my, my thought is fine, then one party gets one term and the next term is going to be the next parties. And you guys don't fight it out and make decisions that are going to be long standing knowing that your opposition is going to come in next, you know, but, well, the future is not
- [31:45]
B
guaranteed to any of us. Certainly isn't. It isn't guaranteed to your particular party. And again, this is one of those issues that the vast majority of Americans stand behind and you know, it should be, although it's not. And I think that is what is just baffling to the average voter. Why would an entire party fight against this basic, basic principle that only U.S. citizens can vote in U. S. Elections? And I've asked this, in fact, I recently spoke with Ken Cuccinelli, former attorney general for the state of Commonwealth of Virginia, a guy who has worked in election integrity for, for a long time. And I asked him the question that I asked a lot of people. I'll ask you, why do you think it is that the Democrats have been fighting so hard against what you have been fighting for?
- [32:48]
A
Well, I think we touched on it a little earlier, but to me it has everything to do with the fact that they are counting on non citizens voting. And that's why you have California, Illinois, I think Vermont, Maryland, D.C. as you pointed out, I mean, these are places that are already allowed non citizen voting. So you know, if, if a state has efforts like Maine has efforts to allow non citizen voting, or if states are currently allowing non citizens to vote like California or even in our Nation's capital, Washington D.C. to me that says that that's their goal, right? That's their end game. They want to get it to that point. And to me, I honestly think that it's, it's taking advantage of people to do that. And the reason I say that is they're counting on non citizens not because they care about the non citizens, but it's because they want to Manipulate them to vote in their favor. And honestly, I think that's egregious. I'm the type of person that has a tremendous respect for all people and living things. And, and I don't think it's right to put politics over people. And I ultimately think that that's what they're doing with this. It's, you know, if you are looking to manipulate masses of people for your own gain, to me that's wrong. And I feel like a lot of Americans agree with that. And that's another reason why we've received so much overwhelming support, is because they see it for the tactic that it is.
- [34:42]
B
Well, it's clear to me that you will never run for political office. This is exactly. Manipulating people is exactly what politicians do, even the best of them, the most principled ones. That's, that's the, the name of the game. But I do believe, believe. I believe the word is cynicism. I think that, that, that it's a very cynical thing that the left in this country that the Democrats are doing. That's not to say that Republicans don't do cynical things in this particular issue, and I believe there are a number of them. But in this particular issue, you see the Democrats acting cynically because they know this isn't about a human rights issue, as they like to put it. It is their.
- [35:36]
A
Yes, that's exactly right. And honestly, I, I don't lean any way politically. I think that it's two wings of the exact same bird. And I, I will say on the manipulation front that, you know, in my personal life, I'm in marketing and you know, marketing to a degree. And advertising is also a form of manipulation.
- [35:58]
B
Oh, sure.
- [35:59]
A
Even the way that I choose to go about that, it's about under promising and over delivering. So you can do that in a way politically or you can do that in a way through advertising that still maintains integrity and doesn't seek to gain personally at the expense of others. And so I feel like, again, you know, Americans are more informed than ever, not only about what's happening in the country, but what's happening globally. And I think we can thank, you know, social media for that. It's connected in a way that would never have been possible in the past. And I think people are kind of waking up to the fact that ultimately people matter more. Right. And I don't care about a corporation's profits or, you know, a politician's, you know, personal gains. And I think the majority of people feel that way as well, that they want kind of this greater good overreach that, you know, decisions made are benefiting all long term. And I think that's the other key as well, because again, I'm not opposed to immigration at all. And honestly, I would argue even that our citizenship process is unnecessarily complicated and maybe not as accessible as it ought to be for people that genuinely do want to become citizens. So in that regard, we can do things like, okay, let's make the citizenship process more accessible, let's make it easier for people to become, become legitimized, but also let's protect our borders while we do that. Like both things can be true. It doesn't have to be one or the other.
- [37:43]
B
Yeah. I hope any reforms that come to that area, though, include allegiance to the United States of America, just as you feel, just as so many millions who have done it the right way feel, you know, that this is their country now.
- [37:59]
A
Yes, yes.
- [38:00]
B
And they, they, they do owe an allegiance to it. And it's not the, it's not the, the kind of alle. That a certain Supreme Court justice once said recently about how if she's in Germany and you know, she, she gets, she steals a wallet from somebody, she has allegiance to that country because she's going to be part of the, the legal process. It is so much more than that than Ketanji Brown Jackson likes to point out. And that's, that has to be part of the reform too. But just on the, the, on the citizen voting side of things, I know that the amendment question is critical to what you're doing at the federal level. It is also critical to what you're doing at the state level. And you've had a good deal of success over the last several election cycles on this. How many states now have amended their constitutions to reflect that only citizens can vote in their elections?
- [39:10]
A
I'm counting right now. I think it's 21.
- [39:13]
B
Yeah, that's a good sign. You have to. You're counting them. You know, it used to be just a handful. I mean, up until about 2017, 18, it was just a handful of states. Again, you've really had a lot of success on this front.
- [39:25]
A
Yeah, absolutely. And that's not any credit to me necessarily. There's a tremendous team behind this. And again, all of the people are impassioned about the same thing, and that is, is protecting this amazing country that we live in and maintaining integrity. Again, federal elections do deserve constitutional clarity, and that's all we're trying to make happen, is to bring the clarity that people have assumed was already there. And I'd encourage people to go to uscva.org that's us citizensvotingamendment.org and they can see all of of the stats for themselves. You can actually read House Resolution 152 and see for yourself just how clear and how simple it is. I mean to me this is really a no brainer. And again, it's something that I take time out of my regular life to participate in because I'm truly passionate about this cause. I think it matters in a major way for our future.
- [40:32]
B
I would assume you've learned a great deal with this issue about where Americans stand on, you know, on these core constitutional issues. They're also, they'd also, again, I know you're a nonpartisan group, but it also is, is good politics because as they say, good policy makes for good good politics. I see a lot of people, I saw it in, in Wisconsin when they had a citizen only amendment. A lot of people came out for that and voted for that amendment. I saw the same thing in Iowa and South Carolina. South Carolina was a little different because they, you know, they have a different process on that. But there is a great deal of enthusiasm for this move.
- [41:25]
A
Yes, absolutely there is. And again, you know, because we live in a much more informed time, you know, people are now aware that non citizens today are legally voting in 24 cities in four states and in our nation's capital. And personally I think that's what adds insult to injury. Do you know what I mean? I'm like not my nation's capital. Yeah, I stand for this country. And I think part of that again is protecting that integrity. And it has nothing to do with, you know, not liking immigrants because obviously I, you know, I myself am one, so is my mother, so is my sister in law. You know, there's a lot of legal immigrants in my life. And I will say on that note as well that my biological father, who is Brazilian as well, he came to this country illegally and at one point in time had asked me to support him in something. I can't remember what it was, but he wanted me to co sign for something and they were going to run a background check and a credit check for me. And I told him no, because ultimately if, if you are a person that would illegally come into this country, then that says something to me about your personal integrity. And again, I understand more than anyone can realize the opportunities that are afforded here that people don't have in other countries. You know, the way that the poorest American lives Doesn't compare with how some other people live daily in other countries. I get the desire to come here, but again, there are channels, proper channels for a reason, and I don't think that it's right to bypass those.
- [43:13]
B
Well, what a difficult position to put you in to begin with on that front. And I'm sorry that you, you had to go through that because, you know, you can only imagine there, there still is. This is your biological father and he's, he's asking a favor of you. But. Yeah, but I think what you said nails it on the head for the vast majority of Americans. And that is, you know, the vast majority of Americans do support immigrants, immigration, legal immigration, and they support immigrants in that fashion. But they do get it that if your first act in the process of becoming an American, or at the very least living in America is to break the law, then that does communicate something very powerful. And I guess we'll close with this question. Question. It feels a bit dystopian to do this, but let me ask you, if your amendment that you're pushing right now, if that doesn't go through, if there isn't some fix, the Save America act as the enforcement side of things, certainly I understand its limitations. But if something isn't done, what do you foresee happening in this country in the years to come?
- [44:38]
A
Well, honestly, I'd have to imagine an alternate reality because I truly believe that this is going to go through. But just for the sake of a thought experiment, if there was an alternate reality where this didn't go through for any reason, I honestly think it would be the decline of our country. And I don't, I don't say that to be, you know, to fear monger, but I say that with just a broken heart. You know, there's so much of what makes, makes this country fundamentally different and special. And I think a lot of that is tied to our Constitution and how the nation was founded to begin with. And again, even the fact that we have the capacity as a people to come together to unite and propose House Joint Resolution 152, to have an opportunity to even amend the Constitution, to have these conversations, is part of what makes America so great. And so to lose something like that and to kind of open our voting borders in that way, I think is just a dangerous road ahead. We need people voting that have a vested interest in maintaining the integrity of the United States. And by integrity, I mean that everyone on board is for this country, not against it, not trying to dismantle it, not trying to make it like any other country, but just for America. America.
- [46:06]
B
Well, I don't want to close on a downer note. I, you know, I like landing on some hope and some promise. And I do think there is hope where there is vast agreement on something. And I think that the fact that this is an 80 10, 9010 issue is extremely helpful to the cause of doing right. But all of that aside, you're not just an American, Avi. You're a Wisconsinite, or at least that's. That's where you grew up, just like me. So I have to ask you, are you now, as we speak, eating a bowl of fried cheese curds or a bratwurst for that matter?
- [46:54]
A
I'm not, but I will say that one. I always have my packers shirt on the ready.
- [47:01]
B
Good. Good lady. Good lad. Yeah.
- [47:03]
A
I eat cheese at every meal, so that is probably my number one food group. Yeah. If it, if it has cheese, I'm on board.
- [47:12]
B
So very good. Very good. And of course, a natural loathing for the Chicago Bears. It's all built in.
- [47:18]
A
Yes.
- [47:19]
B
You know where I told you before, where I grew up in Platteville, it was a difficult time for a lot of Packer fans at that point, because the Chicago Bears back in the early mid-1980s and they, they. They were there for a long time, but they used to have their summer camp at the University of Wisconsin, Platteville. And so we would see, you know, the, The, The. The assorted players and some very legendary players. Walter Payton, you know, we saw. We saw William the Refrigerator Perry, they called him that because he could eat the contents of a refrigerator in one setting. You know, to watch him at the, at the quick trip buying Susie Q's and other assorted items was surreal. But a lot of those, and I. And I tie this all in about your allegiance, right? You come to this country, your allegiance should be to the United States of America if you want to be a citizen. And I think the same thing as a Packers fan, but so many of those Platville folks became Bears fans. What do you think about that?
- [48:26]
A
You know, Yeah, I. I guess I, I will never begrudge someone their right to change their mind. And I would defend it to the death. I think that kind of freedom is part of what makes this country great. But, man, when it comes down to being for the United States or against the United States, you're. You're for the US or you need to get on back home. That's kind of my thought process. Process.
- [48:57]
B
I appreciate that as well as I appreciate the same sentiment for packers fans, you're either a Packer fan or you're suffering some horrible other reality. Well, it, it, it all ties in nicely together. But ultimately, at the end of the day, it's what so many Americans have been talking about, more so than ever, is that if you want to vote, vote in US Elections, you have to be a US Citizen. Right now, that is not necessarily the case, and that is a topic that has not been discussed. The language of the Constitution, the loopholes, those are big problems. And I know that's what you and your organization will be addressing moving forward.
- [49:47]
A
Absolutely. Yeah. And you know what? It's so much easier to just establish it from the onset set versus having to, you know, make changes in the future, because then at that point it's going to be, oh, now you're taking rights away, you know, and again, I go back to, well, those rights should only exist if you are a citizen of the country.
- [50:08]
B
So absolutely. Thanks to my guest today, Abby Fortenberry, president of Americans for Citizen Voting, an election integrity organization dedicated to ensuring that all, only United States citizens can legally vote in our elections. You've been listening to another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, senior elections correspondent at the Federalist and devoted Packer fan. As you've heard, we'll be back soon with more. Until then, stay lovers of freedom and anxious for the fray. Lots of places can expose you to identity theft. That's why LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity, which is way more than anyone can do on their own. If we find any anything suspicious, like new loans or changes to your financial accounts, we alert you right away all through text, phone, email or the LifeLock app. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com iHeart terms apply.
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A
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- [52:20]
B
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