’You're Wrong' With Mollie Hemingway And David Harsanyi, Ep. 193: Birthright Citizenship

Summary

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Federalist Radio Hour: ’You're Wrong’ With Mollie Hemingway and David Harsanyi

Episode 193: Birthright Citizenship
Date: April 1, 2026
Host: Mollie Hemingway (The Federalist), David Harsanyi (Washington Examiner)

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Overview

This episode delves into two major topics: the recent developments around birthright citizenship—prompted by a Supreme Court case that may reshape the interpretation of the 14th Amendment—and a key Supreme Court ruling affecting counseling for gender dysphoria (often labeled “conversion therapy”). Mollie Hemingway and David Harsanyi adopt their signature frank, incisive tone, exploring the legal, cultural, and political ramifications. The episode also features commentary on Christy Noem’s recent personal controversies, discussions about marriage and morality in public life, and a lively culture segment including TV and travel recommendations.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Journalism, Blogging, and Social Media’s Evolution

(00:28-02:10)

• Mollie and David reminisce about the evolution from traditional journalism hierarchies to the democratization via blogs, then the chaos of today’s social media.
• Mollie observes:

  “When I first became a columnist...that I would just sit in that seat for the rest of my life. And then blogs came along and everyone was a columnist so it didn’t really mean much.” (01:24)

• Both agree that social media has made discourse more toxic and disorienting; Mollie notes the emotional toll and recommends stepping outside for perspective.

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2. Kristi Noem Controversy and Marital Morality in Public Office

(02:10-14:05)

• The duo discuss reports regarding South Dakota Governor Kristi Noem’s husband’s cross-dressing fetish and the political and personal fallout.
• David frames this as part of a wider cultural phenomenon:

  “Sometimes this story, a story comes along and you’re like, wow, people are weird out there... I’m really glad that I just have a happy, healthy, normal marriage...” (03:38)

• They analyze the difference between cross-dressing, transgender identification, and sexual fetishes, arguing the latter is distinct from gender dysphoria.
• Mollie ties Noem’s personal issues to her political decisions, especially her handling of trans-related legislation.
• David stresses that marriage is not just private but a social contract; public figures’ personal actions inevitably become public business.
• Both express sympathy for the familial impact, especially on children and grandchildren, and critique “non-traditional” relationships as less fulfilling compared to secure marriages.

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3. Kristi Noem’s Policy Tenure and Performance as DHS Secretary

(14:05-18:28)

• Pivot from personal to political, critiquing Noem’s term as Secretary of DHS under Trump:
  • Praised for securing the border but failed to execute mass deportations—one of Trump’s core promises.
  • Poor public messaging and accusations of corruption/grifting undercut her effectiveness.
• David:

  “If you don’t have mass deportation of some of the mass illegal migration here, it’s very bad for the country. So it was a very serious job. I think Trump should have picked someone much more serious... and now we’re all reaping the consequences.” (16:18)

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4. Supreme Court "Conversion Therapy" Ruling

(20:00-26:37)

• Supreme Court rules 8-1 in favor of a Colorado therapist, affirming that bans on “conversion therapy” are a violation of providers’ First Amendment rights to free speech.
• David explains:

  “...if you want a kid to mutilate themselves... you have every right to talk them into it... But if you think that’s an unhealthy idea, which it is, you are penalized and banned by the State of Colorado from helping that minor.” (22:08)

• Mollie reads from Gorsuch’s opinion:

  “The First Amendment stands as a shield against any effort to enforce orthodoxy in thought or speech in this country.” (23:34)

• The hosts criticize mainstream media’s framing of the decision as an “LGBTQ vs. Christian conservative” battle, emphasizing the neutrality and universality of free speech protections.

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5. Birthright Citizenship and the 14th Amendment

(26:37-43:41)

• David shares anticipation for attending Supreme Court oral argument on the question: Does the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment automatically grant citizenship to children born to illegal immigrants?
• Both recount their evolving views—David credits reading constitutional scholars (e.g., John Eastman, Randy Barnett) for changing his mind.
• Mollie:

  “If I could write the 14th Amendment today, I would exclude people here illegally, explicitly... It just seems to me if you’re here illegally, you’re not under the jurisdiction of the United States technically, so you shouldn’t be a citizen.” (27:33)

• Key insights:
  • The “jurisdiction” clause's original intent was to ensure citizenship for freed slaves, not to cover illegal residents’ children.
  • Historically, citizenship laws and policies have changed (e.g., Native Americans were only granted citizenship by act of Congress decades later).
  • The Supreme Court’s current case is unprecedented and could reshape U.S. policy.
  • David projects the court's possible decision dynamics, noting Roberts’ unpredictable philosophy and the likely split between originalist and progressive justices.
  • Mollie and David agree: if the law changes, those already considered citizens should be “grandfathered in,” and changes should be forward-looking.

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6. Culture Segment: TPUSA Commentary, Personal Notes, and Recommendations

(43:57-53:17)

• David shares impressions from visiting the Turning Point USA (TPUSA) complex in Phoenix, especially noting mementos sent for Charlie Kirk after his assassination.
• Both hosts decry the severe public attacks and “bullying” against Erica Kirk (Kirk’s widow), especially from alleged conservatives.
• Mollie:

  “A widow with two young children just constantly abused by major voices, alleged conservatives in the media. ...It’s the biggest bullying job I’ve ever seen in my life. ...I think it’s evil.” (45:08)

• David reflects on empathy and the need to guard against cruel impulses, referencing social media’s role in amplifying negativity.
• Travel tales: Federalist Summit, family confirmations, and amusing airplane anecdotes.

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7. Culture Picks & Listener Interactions

(50:37-53:17)

• TV Recommendation:
  • Mr. Inbetween (Australian crime drama, very dark, not for children but “really well done”)
• Art Exhibition:
  • Muscarelle Museum of Art, Williamsburg—currently showing “Abstract Expressionist Women”
• Listener feedback appreciated: recommendations for content and thoughtful commentary.
• Mollie’s upcoming speaking engagement announced.

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Notable Quotes

• Mollie Hemingway:

  “I noticed for myself [social media] makes me miserable. … I think it like highlights all the most terrible people and terrible things that are on constantly to the extent where people start thinking this is how the world is when it’s not.” (02:10)

• David Harsanyi:

  “Marriage is a public thing. ...When you are literally on a zoom cam with other women, there’s a public aspect to that, even if you think it’s private.” (13:12)

• On the Supreme Court conversion therapy ruling:

  “The First Amendment stands as a shield against any effort to enforce orthodoxy in thought or speech in this country.”
  —Justice Gorsuch, quoted by Mollie (23:34)

• On birthright citizenship:

  “If you’re here illegally, you have done none of that now, not even in a legal sense, but you have not pledged any kind of allegiance.” —Mollie (31:23)
  “It turns out he [John Roberts] was telling the truth there [about having no judicial philosophy].” —David (37:37)
  “If you didn’t have rules about coming here... when the 14th Amendment was passed, all the way up until Congress passed a law…giving Native Americans US citizenship, they were not viewed as citizens. …Which to me is a really strong argument.” —David (34:30)

• On TPUSA and empathy:

  “If you ever find yourself in a position where literally weeks and months after…a woman is having to raise her family and carry on her husband’s legacy after watching him be assassinated in public…if you find yourself piling on against that widow, you’re in a bad place.” —David (45:48)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:28 – Show begins, reflection on journalism & social media
• 02:10 – Kristi Noem controversy, marital morality, cross-dressing vs. gender dysphoria
• 14:05 – Policy critique: Noem as DHS Secretary
• 20:00 – Supreme Court conversion therapy ruling
• 26:37 – Introduction to birthright citizenship debate
• 34:30 – The tribal citizenship argument and shifting interpretations
• 43:57 – Culture & travel: TPUSA, attacks on Erica Kirk
• 50:37 – TV recommendations & art exhibition
• 53:17 – Listener responses, culture wrap-up

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Tone and Style

The discussion is candid, sometimes blunt, but also thoughtful and occasionally self-deprecating. The hosts blend humor, criticism, and empathy, particularly when discussing sensitive cultural and personal issues. Their approach is unabashedly opinionated and often skeptical of mainstream narratives.

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For listeners who missed the episode, this summary captures the legal debates, cultural critiques, and personal touches that define “You’re Wrong” with Mollie Hemingway and David Harsanyi.

Transcript

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[Molly Hemingway]

who's ready for the trust fall? Welcome back everyone, to a new episode of youf're Wrong with Molly Hemingway, editor in chief of the Federalist, and David Harsanyi, senior writer at the Washington Examiner. Just as a reminder, if you'd like to email the show, please do so at radio the federalist.com we'd love to hear from you and Molly. I forgot what my title was there for a second. Took me a second stumbled.

[David Harsanyi]

I'm not a big title person and I, I value people, but I just don't care what their title is.

[Molly Hemingway]

It's matter. It matters less and less in journalism, at least when I started out, you know, you were like a cub reporter then senior this, that, and there was sort of a structure. But now everyone does a little bit of everything at websites. It writes about a little bit of everything. When I first became a columnist in 19 in 2004, being a columnist was like a big thing. Like I, that I would just sit in that seat for the rest of my life. And then blogs came along and everyone was a columnist so it didn't really mean much.

[David Harsanyi]

I liked the blog era.

[Molly Hemingway]

Oh, I think it, I think it's the, I think it was the best. I mean I discovered so many interesting voices. People out have these amazing debates. It really just opened the world up to me in a, in a way to a lot of interesting people and. But then it all came falling down with social media.

[David Harsanyi]

Been good for me personally, but I don't think it's great for everybody meaning like for the world. Seems like it's had some downsides.

[Molly Hemingway]

I, I do, I think so. I think it's changing the way people think. I don't. I'm not smart enough to know how technically in the brain that's happening. But I noticed for myself that it makes me miserable when I'm on it and I do this thing where I try not to go on at night where it upsets me. I think it like highlights all the most terrible people and terrible things that are on constantly to the extent where people start thinking this is how the world is when it's not. So get outside. Now, speaking of the real world and the weird world, let's talk, if we can, a bit in. In a very careful way about Kristy gnomes. Not in a careful way.

[David Harsanyi]

Why do we have to be careful?

[Molly Hemingway]

We don't have to be careful. Christy Noam's husband is, apparently has a.

[David Harsanyi]

Would you call it a fetish, A cross dressing fetish.

[Molly Hemingway]

Right.

[David Harsanyi]

Where he puts on enormous tatas and like hot pink tight pants and then talks to women online.

[Molly Hemingway]

It's called. Called bimbofication. Bimbofication. It's a fetish scene. Apparently people. There are many people involved. He looks like such a, you know, he looks like a handsome fella, like normal manly man. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[David Harsanyi]

I feel like this explains so much, really. Sometimes this story, a story comes along and you're like, wow, people are weird out there. I am. You know, I'm. I never want to be proud about anything, you know, like, related to my marriage because I understand how precious each day is. But I'm really glad that I just have a happy, healthy, normal marriage. And Mark and I seem to be very happy in it. You know, we enjoy each other. And Kristi Noem used to be so beautiful. I don't know if you remember this, but, like, when she first ran for office, she was legit beautiful and very natural. But then she started doing a lot of body modification. And I'm wondering if her husband's issues played a role in her thinking she needed to change. She claimed today that she had no idea that this was going on. And I'm not sure I believe that. But, you know, I bet she did at least sense something if she didn't know outright. So I think maybe she was at first trying to change herself and then. And then it also would explain why she's having an affair with Corey Lewandowski. I'm not justifying it. You should not cheat, even if your husband is going through major issues like this. But also, do you remember when she obstructed that trans bill in South Dakota?

[Molly Hemingway]

Ah, yeah, I do, I do.

[David Harsanyi]

The Federalists used to be very pleased with her in general. She was saying the right things and doing the right things. And then she just like did a very weird approach, which I think had something to do with one of her chief donors being the hospital system that made so much money off of mutilating children and other people.

[Molly Hemingway]

Well, it was a sudden U turn. I remember, like she was all. Seemed to be a board and Then all of a sudden it's like someone spoke to her about it and then she changed her mind. Yeah.

[David Harsanyi]

So I don't know, I feel like it all kind of comes together in her husband's bad behavior. Maybe, though maybe it was the opposite. Maybe she was the one who was going off the deep end and this was his response. I don't know. But

[Molly Hemingway]

I will say this now. I'm going to ask you. I'm going to phrase this in question form. Tell me. There are people who believe that they are a part of a gender they were not born, which is, I think, a mild form of mental illness, usually. Right. Like, that's how I view it. I don't know.

[David Harsanyi]

Yeah, it can be a major form of mental illness too. But yes, go on.

[Molly Hemingway]

When people start mutilating themselves, I think that's a major form. But typically, I just think it's maybe something. Even when you're young, you might think and get over. Right. With some help or on your own. This doesn't seem to be that kind of thing. Right. It just seems to be an actual fetish where the guy, like, for whatever reason likes to do this sort of thing. Right. I mean, there is a difference to be had between those two kinds of thinkings. Not saying the other one's not also some sexual component to it in fetish.

[David Harsanyi]

I mean, you know, sometimes people say, like, oh, trans stuff has always been with us. And then they will mention cross dresser. And it's like, I get why you would group those together. There are some issues of overlap, but cross dressing is actually like a totally different thing than pretending to believe or believing that you are a different sex than the one you are. And cross dressing does have a lengthy history. I mean, you'll even see references in the Bible about how you're not supposed to do it. Like Old Testament stuff. But I don't know about. Even among cross dressers, there's huge variation. It's also a sign that things are not operating properly in the mental health department. And sometimes it's a function of child abuse and reactions to child abuse or sexual. Sexual confusion in terms of being attracted to the same sex and thinking that if you're dressed as the opposite sex, that that will.

[Molly Hemingway]

But yeah, there's also a culture of like, drag. Right. Kitschy. It seems very different. So going back to Shakespeare or where. Where men dress as women for entertainment purposes, I think that's also a different strand.

[David Harsanyi]

Or just like drag for. For comedy is a big thing. Right?

[Molly Hemingway]

Right.

[David Harsanyi]

Whether it's in a. You Know, for a role or for a, you know, drag burlesque show or something like that. I have a question, David. What percentage of the world is truly messed up this way? Sometimes I feel like it's a lot. And maybe also I feel like in the Washington D.C. slash political environments, it's overrepresented the being messed up stuff.

[Molly Hemingway]

I. I'm always. So. I'll be. I'm just walking through life doing my best. And sometimes I will hear a story and it'll. In, you know, it'll be someone I know. I don't mean I'm friends with them, but someone I know in the world or I've maybe met once or something. And there'll be a story. Yeah, they were, you know, they were involved in threesomes, of having affairs, this or they were actually doing this. And I'm just like, what is going on behind the scenes? I feel like I am clueless and that the world is much more exciting. Not in a good way, really exciting than I thought.

[David Harsanyi]

Nasty.

[Molly Hemingway]

Yeah. Well, let me ask you a question. Was he. This is obviously cheating of a sort, right? Because he. I think he's doing it on zoom or whatever it is. That's not okay, right? There's emotional cheating, there's this kind of cheating, but it doesn't. It's like you could fix something like this because there was no physical. There was no physical cheating.

[David Harsanyi]

Right. I mean, first of all, I actually think even if there is the worst betrayal, you could still fix it. And that should always be the goal. Even, you know, so even that. But certainly this could be repaired if they wanted to kind of get the feeling neither of them wants to, but it's. It's sad. And I would say to people who are struggling with issues, whether it's, you know, addiction to porn or cross dressing or whatever the case may be, you can fix. You. You can work on it and improve the situation.

[Molly Hemingway]

When I was a kid, I've known people who.

[David Harsanyi]

I've known people who've done that very successfully.

[Molly Hemingway]

Yeah, I know. I just. Because when I was a kid, I watched the movie every. Every thing you always wanted to know about sex but were afraid to ask by Woody Allen. And it was not a healthy way for me to learn about these things. But one of the chapters is, well, well, there's the Woody Allen the Gene Wilder chapter where he falls in love with the sheep, which is very weird to watch now. But one of the chapters is our transvestites homosexuals, where the guy who is like the Charmin Squeezer do you remember those commercials? The old guy, he. He puts on women's clothing and he likes to prance around, but he is not a homosexual. So that's what I feel like maybe is going on here. Right.

[David Harsanyi]

I was, I was listening to this. I love this podcast Issues Etc, which is.

[Molly Hemingway]

Do they talk about stuff like this, Molly?

[David Harsanyi]

Well, more serious way, I imagine sort of the opposite. There was a thing that I was listening to about that verse from Philippians. Is that right? Philippians 4. 8. Hold on, let me get the. Let me get the actual passage. Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy, meditate on these things. And so the podcast I was listening to, which had this great theologian Will Whedon on, he was just going through each phrase and what it meant. And I think it's good to meditate on good things and not bad things. Like the gnome marriage, perhaps.

[Molly Hemingway]

There's probably a lot of hurt here. I don't want to be. Oh, yeah, yeah. So. And it's very embarrassing for the person. And I don't really think it's very much my business.

[David Harsanyi]

I will say.

[Molly Hemingway]

No, no, I'm just saying. But. But because she's a public figure and she's with, you know, she's have. Carrying on this relationship. Still married. They're still married. Right. And she's carry. Carrying on this relationship with Lendowski.

[David Harsanyi]

I mean, it puts that also, I believe, still married.

[Molly Hemingway]

Right. I think it becomes our business in a sense to talk about it. Not in the way like the New York Post puts it up, but just in, you know, in that kind of TMZ way. But. But yeah, it's just something I think that's worth talking about. Maybe I'm just rationalizing why we're talking about it in a way or justifying it, I think.

[David Harsanyi]

Cheating on a spouse. So a marriage is a public thing. It's a. It's a declaration to society that you are in a bond with this person that is private and secure and monogamous. And when you are literally on a zoom cam with other women, there's a public aspect to that, even if you think it's private. You know, these are people outside that contract, outside that bond of marriage. So, yeah, I'm not relishing it. And I will say I feel just sick for the man or. Sorry, the husband, the wife and their children and grandchildren. I mean, this is not this has got to be a horrifying thing to go through to learn this about your father this way and grandfather and just

[Molly Hemingway]

tangentially I guess I, I read a lot of stories lately and in you know, in New York kind of magazines or in Vanity Fair, wherever, even in the New York Times about non monogamous multi partner relationships, why they're okay, what benefits there are this and that, but I've never actually seen a long term, any kind of long term situation where that people are happier in that kind of world than they are in a secure marriage. So I think we handled that rather delicately, as delicately as one could. She's terrible by the way. I mean I, I, I, I, I just want to say there's a political matter. From that moment on she, she, she was head of Homeland Security, right? And she is just was incompetent and her messaging was incompetent and the way she ran it was incompetent and she should just been thrown out of the administration altogether. There was no way reason for her to have a job that long. And I kind of weird because Donald Trump used to fire people left and right in his first term and ever will fire anyone it seems to me.

[David Harsanyi]

I would say there are two main issues with Gnomes management of dhs. The first and probably more important one is that the signature policy goal of Trump's campaign was to close the border and deport the illegal aliens. It is true that she did a good job of closing the border and I will give her credit for that. But the deportation of the millions upon millions upon millions of illegal aliens, it does not seem that she had a very good plan for that. The numbers, you know, even though some have been deported. That's true. She walked right into the trap in Baltimore where you know, we got an indication of this during the Los Angeles riots shortly after Trump first was elected where we saw like Antifa was organizing these. We know what Antifa's game plan is which includes to have martyrs that they can exploit and they want to create violent conflict. And she didn't really seem to think that through or have a, have a PR strategy that worked or a way to not again not give Antifa what they wanted there and they got kind of what they wanted. But more than anything the numbers are just not there for deportations and really a lot had to be done in the first two years because historically the minority party makes major gains in the midterms and already there were such narrow majorities in the House and Senate that that meant that, you know, Democrats are likely to take over and start to shut down anything from the deportation angle, even though that's a very popular policy goal of President Trump's. So she let him down on that. And I, I think if you don't have mass deportation of some of the mass illegal migration here, it's, it's very bad for the country. So it was a very serious job. I think Trump should have picked someone much more serious to do it and now we're all reaping the consequences.

[Molly Hemingway]

And also just I know this isn't as important though she is the head of an agency, is that the messaging looks terrible. The way she conducted herself was embarrassing quite often.

[David Harsanyi]

I just want to say the second thing is corruption. People who seek to have personal gain instead of the policy goals that we have a very limited time to achieve are sabotaging the Trump presidency. I do not know in any way the details of allegations. You know, I, I know there are allegations that there was grifting going along, going on under her leadership in terms of friends getting contracts.

[Molly Hemingway]

Oh yeah, things like that.

[David Harsanyi]

So if that is true, that is a horrible betrayal of the MAGA cause to engage in corruption instead of doing what people worked really, really, really hard to achieve in terms of deportations.

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[Molly Hemingway]

Okay, Molly, let's move on to a couple of Supreme Court cases. One was decided on Tuesday, eight to one decision in favor of a therapist named Kaylee Childs in Colorado. The court decided that it was first amendment protected right to engage in, quote, unquote, conversion therapy, which is just a euphemism for speaking to young people about their biological sex in real terms. I think it's a huge victory because there are 20 other states that have similar laws, right?

[David Harsanyi]

Yes. I mean it's, it's a, it's a really big victory. During the, during height of the trans insanity, states were passing laws telling men they could be in or telling males they could be in female sports and locker rooms that you could do nothing about it. Penalizing speech. When it came to someone saying, you know, if I, if I'm, if I as a man tell you to call me a woman, you have to say it. And that was codified into law. And you also had bans on talk therapy. So in the case in question, the therapist, the licensed therapist in Colorado was not prescribing medication or anything like that, but she was helping, she wanted to be able to help patients with gender dysphoria. Colorado banned what they called conversion therapy, which is sort of loaded term to make you think there's something wrong with trying to help someone who's gender confused or.

[Molly Hemingway]

And therapy intimates that there's something physical going on where it's just talking to someone. Right?

[David Harsanyi]

Yeah. And it prohibited them from engaging in, just prohibited therapists from having speech. So you were correct when you said it was a big deal. And I think the fact that it was 8:1 was a big deal. And

[Molly Hemingway]

Katanji Brown.

[David Harsanyi]

Yeah, she's great. And the ruling itself I thought was well done, unsurprisingly by Gorsuch, like whether you like him or don't like him or agree with him or not agree with him, he does a pretty good job with his written opinions. And he said that the First Amendment protects individual's right to decide how best to speak. And it strongly disfavors content based restrictions on viewpoint. And he pointed out that the law does discriminate on viewpoint because if you want a kid to mutilate themselves and, or to get mutilated by doctors is how I should say it or to sterilize themselves. You have every right to talk them into it or talk, you know, to affirm that or to support that. But if you think that's an unhealthy idea, which it is, you are penalized and banned by, by the state of Colorado from helping that minor. And then he also said that just because you're in a professional setting or a therapeutic setting, you, you don't lose protection. And he gave some examples of how the court had previously ruled on that. And yeah, it was good. It's just great.

[Molly Hemingway]

Well, Gorsuch, I love, I think he's the best writer. I mean, I enjoy reading his stuff better. And he, here's a line he wrote. The First Amendment stands as a shield against any effort to enforce force, orthodoxy in thought or speech in this country. It's a kind of a neutral view of speech there. So whether you agree with what is being done or not, it clearly speech, whether it's orthodoxy or not. But think about when I thought, I mean, essentially what they're saying is that a doctor, because these are psychiatrists often and they have doctorates, are not allowed to accept biological reality and talk about it. I mean, that is mind, mind blowingly authority Orwellian. Right?

[David Harsanyi]

It's Soviet.

[Molly Hemingway]

But at the same time, in these same states, they want to allow you to mutilate physically that same child and do something that to them that can oftentimes never be corrected when they're adults, should they change their mind? They can't change their mind because they're not even allowed to hear from a doctor that says you should maybe change your mind about this or not do this.

[David Harsanyi]

Well, speaking of people who feel differently and how disturbing that is. Yeah. That 35 page dissent from Ketanji Brown Jackson is not, not good from her or her supporters.

[Molly Hemingway]

Forget her for a second. Here's NBC News. This is a news story on the NBC News site. Just the lead. I'm going to read you. In a blow to LGBTQ rights, the Supreme Court on Tuesday ruled that Colorado's ban on conversion therapy aimed at youths struggling with their sex, sexual orientation or gender identity violates the free speech rights of conservative Christian therapists.

[David Harsanyi]

That is not what I, the Supreme Court media are just awful at being accurate. Who wrote that? Do you know?

[Molly Hemingway]

Lawrence Hurley?

[David Harsanyi]

I knew it. He's not good.

[Molly Hemingway]

I mean, that's insane because first of all, he doesn't understand the neutrality of free speech at all. Right? This, he, he says this is LGBTQ against Christian, conservative Christian therapists.

[David Harsanyi]

Like if an atheist who does not want to harm children encourages that child through talk therapy not to go on hormones. He's not Christian. He's not conservative. He's, you know, it protects everybody.

[Molly Hemingway]

I mean, did Neil Gorsuch say that only Christian conservative therapists can talk this way? No. I mean, it's, it's just, first of all, Christian conservative therapists have the same rights as the LGBTQ therapist does. This doesn't stop anyone from saying anything, as you pointed out. It just galls me when I hear this because I am not a. I'm a secular person, and I just can't stand when they bifurcate morality in this way. Like, I'm not on the side of people who mutilate children, and I'm not a Christian conservative therapist. Anyway, so there's another big case, and I think you told me you're going to be at the court to hear arguments, is that right?

[David Harsanyi]

Yes, I'll be going to oral argument. We're taping this late on Tuesday, so tomorrow morning, and that's why we're not taping in the morning. And I am really interested in the birthright citizenship case, in part because I have changed my mind on this topic. I don't know if you were with us at the Federalist when we commissioned that piece from NOW Judge Ho about in, in support of birthright citizenship, but that was in accordance with my views at that time. It was a long time ago, like more than 10 years ago. And through reading the arguments, including those of Elon Wurman and Randy Barnett, John Eastman, you know, there are all these different constitutional scholars, they have changed my mind on it.

[Molly Hemingway]

I, this is weird. I don't really have a strong opinion in the sense that I, I, if I could write the 14th Amendment today, I would exclude people here illegally, explicitly. It seems like the political jurisdiction clause or what. Or in. In the amendment kind of already does.

[David Harsanyi]

Fiction thereof.

[Molly Hemingway]

Yes, right. But I would make that explicit because I don't think it makes sense that someone can just illegally come here, have children and make them citizens. But, but again, and I'm not an expert, it seems to me like they weren't really thinking about that at the time. So that this, it just seems to me if you're here illegally, you're not under the jurisdiction of the United States technically, so you shouldn't be a citizen. I think if you're, if you're not, like, I actually think. I'm not sure if my parents are fully citizens yet. When I was born here, they may still have been in the process they

[David Harsanyi]

were subject to the jurisdiction.

[Molly Hemingway]

But they, exactly. But they were subject, they were getting a green card. They were, they were, you know, they were, the wheels were turning. Whereas an illegal person shouldn't be here at all. So I mean that's just my emotional response to it.

[David Harsanyi]

If we can back up. It is sort of commonly believed that if you are born here that you are a full citizen with all the rights of citizenhood. And believe it or not, this issue has never ever, ever gone to the supreme court. Whether the 14th amendments, you know, phrase applying citizenship subject to the jurisdiction of the United States has anything to say about that.

[Molly Hemingway]

But, but wasn't there a case where there was a Chinese railroad worker and

[David Harsanyi]

they had children, that person was a legal resident.

[Molly Hemingway]

Ah, because it was more likely the

[David Harsanyi]

child of legal residence is a different issue. Who could be argued to be subject to the jurisdiction thereof. And not like that was a particularly great court at that era.

[Molly Hemingway]

But my assumption is that there was not any process like we have now right for citizenship, I assume so people would just come and work.

[David Harsanyi]

That's the other thing. Our laws regarding citizenship have changed over time. So you have to, you have to calculate that in as well. So we used to have fairly open borders and now we have non open borders. And that does affect this issue.

[Molly Hemingway]

Right.

[David Harsanyi]

And if you didn't have any rules about coming here. Well, here's how. One of the, one of the briefs that I read was talking about how it used to be assumed that if you came here you were kind of coming here permanently. That was a wrong assumption by the way. Plenty of people would come and go but, but that was sort of the legal assumption was like if you came across on a boat to move here, that meant you wanted to be a citizen and, and the, the laws of Congress were just set up differently. But if you look at when the reply brief, I would recommend, if you want to read anything on this, David, I would read the reply brief that John Sauer submitted last week and he's the Solicitor General and it kind of goes through everything, the history, all the different arguments and it's very convincing. I have heard so many people say recently that they had also changed their mind on this issue. And it's kind of a fun thing to change your mind or, you know, I don't do it often, so when it happens I'm always kind of excited that I'm still being open minded

[Molly Hemingway]

and

[David Harsanyi]

able to hear arguments and be convinced.

[Molly Hemingway]

But I mean my historical knowledge on, on this is just. The 14th amendment was written about slavery and had really nothing to do with the issue at hand here. So that we need different laws for this. That just seems like the most obvious thing from my reading. You know, setting aside the legality, but also a person who is a citizen here or wants to be a citizen, pledges some kind of allegiance to the Constitution and which are the laws of the country, right? If you're here illegally, you have done none of that now, not even in a legal sense, but you have not pledged any kind of allegiance. And maybe many people come here, want to go back, they just want to work here for a few months or whatever it is. And to make those children citizens automatically just doesn't seem to make sense, practical sense to me. I don't know.

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[David Harsanyi]

The reason why this got to the court is that shortly after he was inaugurated, President Trump issued an executive order saying that the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment, along with this provision that's related to it in the Immigration and Nationality act, grants birthright citizenship clause only to children born in the United States, to parents who are domiciled in the country. And that means permanent allegiance to the US and complete subjection to US Political jurisdiction, and that it excludes children of tourists and temporary visitors and sojourners and people who are here illegally. And it separates that allegiance issue from merely being physically present here. And the main argument that Sauer lays out is that the phrase subject to the jurisdiction thereof requires complete subjection to US Political jurisdiction, which has historically and originally meant domicile and mutual allegiance, not merely like you're in a place that has a police, that has police, you know, overseeing the neighborhood, or has a local government. And the primary purpose of the clause was, of course, and I don't think anyone really denies this, to secure citizenship for the freed slaves and their children. The historical evidence from the debates on the 14th Amendment, the Civil Rights act of 1866, all of this supports excluding temporary sojourners and those not domiciled. It points out what I told you already about that US vs Wong Kim arc, which only related, which only held that domiciled resident aliens are citizens. So you so it can, since he

[Molly Hemingway]

was not here illegally, even if he didn't have the same kind of paperwork right So I get that.

[David Harsanyi]

Yeah. And then the really interesting stuff about it is all about how when the 14th Amendment was passed, all the way up until Congress passed a law, I want to, I mean, I can't remember if it was like late 20s or 30s giving Native Americans US citizenship, they were not viewed as US citizen. I mean, extensively weren't viewed as US citizens. They were viewed as tribal nations that were within our borders, and they were within our borders in different ways. Like some were on reservations, some were not, and some were federally protected in certain ways in ways that others weren't. So there were all sorts of different kinds of tribal nations, and none of those people were considered citizens after the 14th Amendment until Congress passed a law saying that they were, which is to me a really strong argument and one that I have to imagine Gorsuch will find convincing. But I could be wrong.

[Molly Hemingway]

I mean, as, as if being an originalist doesn't mean being a literalist. So if I asked someone who was voting for the 14th amendment or wrote the 14th amendment, I forgot the Michigan senator's name. And he. And within the amendment, I think there's immunity, right. For like foreign diplomats, for instance, if they have kids. So you're telling me that they didn't want foreign diplomats who had children to be citizens, but they wanted, who was here illegally invading the country to, to be a citizen. That just doesn't strike me as, as logical at all. And I forget what the other instances are. I guess like you said, the Indian tribes, they never considered it, but also maybe invading armies or. So I forget what's in the, in the, in the amendment, but so, yeah, I could see the originalist in the

[David Harsanyi]

court and on that point, yeah, the originalist, meaning debate on this has never happened until like a year to two years ago, did occasionally have people saying stuff, but it never like, led to a debate, never led to real academic insight. And the stuff on this is super interesting. I mean, you do have five originalist justices on the court now, people who claim themselves to be originalist. And now I don't know how this is going to go. And I would not be shocked if it goes like 7, 2 down just given how people are.

[Molly Hemingway]

Yeah. Robert scores such. Yeah. I don't know if they're sure things, but.

[David Harsanyi]

Well, I think Gorsuch, because he understands tribal law so well and knows that history so well, I actually think he'll find the reply brief pretty convincing. I think Thomas and Alito have already, you know, written things that suggest that they would take an originalist approach on this. So then the question becomes the other three. Like I have to assume today's ruling notwithstanding that the three Democrat appointed justices will do exactly what you think they will do.

[Molly Hemingway]

Yeah, I think so.

[David Harsanyi]

It goes down to then the next three. I think again, we don't know how anyone's gonna go on this. And I assume John Roberts will go work. Like if there are four on one side that firm up, you know, he might go with them or might be inclined to go. Here's the best case scenario, which I'm not anticipating. I just want to say again. But best case scenario is one of Robert's former clerks told me that he has this belief, you know, he famously doesn't have a judicial philosophy. He said. He said he didn't have one and he didn't think you should have one. Which is wondering. I just always wonder what Republicans were doing by confirming him. Like it turns out he was telling the truth there. But he does have this belief that the clerk calls. No great nation would do this. And there is something so absurd about the fact that there are like a million Chinese citizens who explicitly, according to the law of their land, have allegiance to China. Being able to order mail in ballots in this country, you know. Yeah, no great country would do that. Or there, you know, there's a leader of a Mexican cartel who has American citizenship because he was born here. There are absurd things that I wonder if Roberts will deploy his philosophy of no great country can tolerate this. And then for Amy Coney Barrett, I also think she would find that reply brief pretty convincing as a law professor. And I have no idea on Kavanaugh. Sorry. Despite being written a book about him, I don't know exactly where he would go.

[Molly Hemingway]

I'm a big fan of Randy Barnett and he wrote a book. I think it's the original meaning of the 14th amendment or something, which does

[David Harsanyi]

not include anything on this, by the way. But go on.

[Molly Hemingway]

I was gonna say I don't remember his position, but I never. I don't remember reading that he was. Thought that this was only concerned slaves and. And so on. But I have seen him writing recently and he seems to have turned a corner, let's say. And I think he's become more. More conservative on it. Right. Like he's changed his mind maybe.

[David Harsanyi]

I don't know if he has changed his mind so much. I would say that he was writing a lot about the previous 14th Amendment cases. And like I said, this has never hit the court before. So also, that's kind of exciting. That's why I Want to be there tomorrow. You rarely get an opportunity to see something that they have never dealt with in their history. And here we're going to get a discussion.

[Molly Hemingway]

Yeah.

[David Harsanyi]

On. On a major issue that relates to like, are you a real republic or not? And I'm excited to go there. So we'll have to talk about it next week, too.

[Molly Hemingway]

To me, it seems the conversion therapy case, I'm just using their, their nomenclature is that it is cut and dry on the First Amendment. Frankly, I just don't. Anyone who is voting on the wrong side of that, I just don't think cares about the Constitution here. Roberts has an out because it's not explicitly clear. Right. There is. There is leeway and it has. And he seems like, for lack of a better word, like a traditionalist or someone who would like. Because it's been this way for so long that he may want to preserve it. That's all. I'm just trying to get into his mind, considering the other things that he's done. Though, to me, again, it seems like this should be a matter of voters. Voters should decide who becomes a citizen.

[David Harsanyi]

They still could. I mean, Congress, like how I mentioned Congress declared Native Americans to be citizens decades after the 14th Amendment. Congress has a lot of leeway in terms of who is a citizen or not. Let's say the court does say that children who are born to parents who are here illegally and therefore have allegiance to a different nation, that, that they're not citizens. Congress could immediately say, well, we're going to grandfather everybody in. I'm not saying they should, but they could easily do that. They just say going forward, we're not going to do this. Or, you know, they can do whatever they want so determining that the 14th Amendment does not grant you automatic citizenhood. Or they could say anyone who's living here right now is.

[Molly Hemingway]

Now that you mention it, this could be a sticky problem because there are people like, let's say my parents had overstayed their visa when I was born. And so that mean I'm not a citizen, even though I've participated in all these, you know, in citizenship for so long. That seems like a problem for, for a lot of people. I wonder if people would be grandfathered in.

[David Harsanyi]

I'm just saying Congress would probably have a lot of pressure to, to do.

[Molly Hemingway]

Congress can have all the pressure on earth they're not going to do. I just don't see them being able to do anything here.

[David Harsanyi]

Think about. We began this discussion by saying it's a commonly held idea that people who are born here are citizens.

[Molly Hemingway]

Right.

[David Harsanyi]

A couple years ago, everyone already thought they were. Now when people are like, oh, wait, why did I think that? Where did that idea come from? And realizing that they just were basically taking a Woodrow Wilson policy or, I don't know, FDR policy and just like, deciding that that policy had the strength of permanence, it wouldn't be that big of a change. It would improve things going forward.

[Molly Hemingway]

Yeah, I agree.

[David Harsanyi]

I, I said we're just gonna.

[Molly Hemingway]

Yeah.

[David Harsanyi]

Now that it's clarified finally, for the first time in history, from this point

[Molly Hemingway]

forward, I, I think people accepted it as true. And I did. And I. And I believe that it should be grandfathered. I believe moving forward, it should change, not backwards. But I, I think it plays on the generosity of the American people. Right. Just as immigration in general does. But I think people have taken so much advantage of it. The people have gotten very cynical.

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[Molly Hemingway]

You want to talk about culture?

[David Harsanyi]

I do.

[Molly Hemingway]

I. Well, do you have. You want to go first?

[David Harsanyi]

I was like, I do, but I don't have anything to talk about.

[Molly Hemingway]

Oh, is that true? Have you been traveling or.

[David Harsanyi]

I've been traveling, like, almost non stop. I was out in Arizona. After last week's show, I flew out to Arizona. Oh. Shaun Davis and I hosted. Or no. Shaun Davis and I were guests on the Charlie Kirk show, which was fun. I always liked being out there. I also loved just being in the TP USA complex. They have this one room that is just filled with things that people like old men to young kids sent in after Charlie was assassinated. And it was nice to see it. I mean, multiple Purple Hearts that men sent in. And then also little notes to Erica and, you know, crosses and art. Some of the art was quite good, which I just loved. And I. It was very nice to be there and see what they're doing. And, you know, just.

[Molly Hemingway]

I don't know if we want to talk about this, but. And I won't mention names, but last week, and I don't. I'm not even a TP USA fan, honestly, it's like some of the people. I find some of the people that they put forward not that great, but just seeing what's happening to Erica Kirk and what people do to her is so enraging to me. I'VE never witnessed anything like it in my life. And a widow with two young children just constantly abused by major voices, alleged conservatives in the media. It's just. It's enraging to me. It's the biggest bullying job I've ever seen in my life. And I don't know. Just horrifying. Horrifying to me. I don't know.

[David Harsanyi]

I think it's evil. And if you ever find yourself in a position where literally weeks and months after a woman, a young woman, is having to raise her family and carry on her husband's legacy after watching him be assassinated in public and. And all the horrible stuff associated with that, like the rejoicing from people on the left. If you find yourself piling on against that widow, you're. You're in a bad place.

[Molly Hemingway]

I tweeted that, and it was crazy how many people attacked me on there. Like, they just. There. There are a bunch of. And there are. A lot of them are women, frankly, have been convinced. It seems to me that there's something shady going on in this and that she's not acting right. She's not speaking right. How do you know how you're supposed to speak after you watch your husband be assassinated? I don't know what. What you're. How you're supposed to act. Everyone acts differently, and I don't even know what they're saying is true. I know there's a lot of AI slop out there and. And, you know, edited videos and this and that. I don't know what they want from this person. This. I just. I feel bad for her. And I agree. I think it's evil. Something evil out there. And I don't know if it's always been there in America or it's just human.

[David Harsanyi]

It's like it's. So you have to guard your heart and work on not being that yourself.

[Molly Hemingway]

That's why we were just going back to the beginning. This is why I can't be on social media all the time, because it's just really a downer. Anyway. I don't know.

[David Harsanyi]

We were out there, and then we

[Molly Hemingway]

also had a. I'm sorry, is this in Phoenix? Is that where they are?

[David Harsanyi]

Yeah. And we. We had a Federalist Summit, which was awesome for multiple reasons. We had some of our supporters out there. We got to talk to them about what we do and what we are planning to do. And also, as you know, the Federalist is a. Is like a remote staff situation. We have people all over the country. Alaska, California, you know, Indiana, New York, Texas, I'm in Virginia. And that means we don't get a lot of face to face time. So it was also really great to see wonderful staff. Not like everybody got to go, but those of us who were out there, it was nice to have that fellowship. So it was just great. I enjoyed it. We really have some great, interesting supporters and readers and it was very cool to meet them.

[Molly Hemingway]

I. I enjoy Arizona. Don't love the heat sometimes, but I enjoy going out there. It's just, I like the vibe out there and that in New Mexico. They're just great, great places to visit. Oh, wait, well, yeah, yeah. Oh more.

[David Harsanyi]

Then I flew to Denver and I got to see my nephew. Get confirmed. Are not my nephew, he's my cousin's son. And that was fun. Confirmed in the Lutheran. In the Lutheran Church. And it's always this dramatic thing, like you recite that you would suffer all, even death rather than depart from this confession of faith. And I always remember when I like casually was like, oh yeah, totally. I'll suffer all up to death, you know, and then as you get older, you realize what you vowed and it just becomes heavier. But it was beautiful service Palm Sunday, which is the beginning of our Holy week. And it was nice to be at the church that my, you know, my dad was at until he died and that my mom goes to. And this is so unimportant, I don't even know why I'm saying it, but my mom and I were flying back in the bulkhead seat right behind a bathroom. And. And I will admit that she is. She and I are both sensitive to smell, I will admit that. But I think every single person on the plane used that bathroom at least once. I mean, it was just non stop in and out and there was no, there was no bad smell coming out of it other than the fragrance that they use, which was overpowering. And I was like, gives me a migraine. Light end. Yeah. Anyway, how's that for culture?

[Molly Hemingway]

I wonder if people can tell if we were struggling to find topics.

[David Harsanyi]

No, I did do a puzzle, a puzzle sister while I was out there. And it was, you might like this. Not that you're a puzzle person, but it was 50 absurd things that are against the law in each state. So like Nevada would be like, it's illegal to ride a camel on the interstate. And.

[Molly Hemingway]

Right, right. I love that.

[David Harsanyi]

Or more women can't rent an apartment. You know, just whatever.

[Molly Hemingway]

When I wrote my book nanny state almost 20 years ago now, I had a list of those kind of laws. I always Found them quite funny. I actually have a strong recommend, and I might have mentioned this a long time ago, but I want to say and preface all of this by saying it's extremely dark, this show. It's a dark show. It's not for children. It is in the, I'd say, Breaking Bad mold. It's called Mr. In Between. Have you ever heard of this?

[David Harsanyi]

Never.

[Molly Hemingway]

It's Australian. It stars a guy named Scott Ryan, and he is a. It's on Hulu, I think. And he is a. I guess a hitman, sort of used to be in the military. And there's something wrong with him morally, but he knows that and tries to constantly function in the real world. He has a daughter and all this. So he's in between this really ugly underworld and the regular suburban world he lives in now. It kind of sounds tropish, I guess, in a way, but it's really well done. It's Australian. Funny sometimes, as these shows do, it gets darker as it goes on. I think there's three seasons. They're not very long. I binged it in a couple, you know, the weekend and a couple a day. Really liked it. So I would recommend that show. The other thing I did, and I want to occasionally brandish my cultural. My actual cultural activities. But I went to a place called the Muscarella Museum of Art in Williamsburg, which is really nice. It's new. It's on the campus of William, William and Mary. Beautiful facility. If you're into art and you're around here, you should go. And I'm a fan of abstract expressionists, and they had abstract expressionist women. And it was a really cool. It was a really cool exhibit. If you like that kind of art, like Elaine de Kooning or whatever, they had those kind of paintings. It's traveling exhibit and they have a standing exhibit there that's kind of cool, too, if you're into it. So I just don't want people to think I watch shows about hitmen all the time. Occasionally my wife drags me to a museum.

[David Harsanyi]

I was gonna say you asked listeners for recommendations on procedurals, and I thought you got some really good recommendations. And I asked listeners for thoughtful commentary on the war. And I loved, like, loved the responses I got. I just was. I found.

[Molly Hemingway]

Yeah, no, we got. We got very thoughtful and long and thought out. I don't mean long. And in my negative way, I usually contain long emails. Remember, we need to keep it under 500 words, but these were longer and very well thought out. And I think you asked for that kind of response. And I think people gave it to you. And yeah, there were many procedurals. I actually made a list. Mr. In between might have been on them. I'm not sure. But so I look forward to watching some of those as well. On Wednesday night, I'll be speaking at the Virginia Forum in the Glenn Allen Cultural center about the history of guns forged in fire. I think it's called starts at 7. If you'd like to hear me speak. If you'd like to reach a show, you can do [e-mail] we love to hear from you and we will be back next week. Until then, be lovers of freedom and anxious for the fray.

[Lou Reed (Wild Side Song Excerpt)]

Holly came from Miami, fla. Hitchhiked her way across usa, Plucked her eyebrows on the way, shaved her legs and then he was a she. She says, hey babe, take a walk on the wild side. Said hey honey, take a walk on the wild side.

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