Amelia Has Feelings About Pride Month

Summary

Feminist Survival Project: Episode Summary

Episode Title: Amelia Has Feelings About Pride Month
Hosts: Emily Nagoski and Amelia Nagoski
Release Date: June 26, 2025

---

Introduction: Amelia's Upcoming Engagements

The episode opens with Amelia announcing her return to live sessions on Fridays at 4 PM during May and June on their YouTube channel, YouTube.com/FeministSurvivalProject. She mentions her plans to engage with the audience by answering questions, singing songs, and discussing topics like "Murderbot." Amelia expresses excitement about June's focus on Pride Month, setting the stage for a deep dive into her personal feelings about the event.

Amelia (00:00): "I hope you can join us. June is busting out all over. All over the medals and the hand. We're talking about Pride month."

Amelia's Internal Conflict with Pride Month

Emily initiates the conversation by highlighting Amelia's discomfort with Pride Month, prompting Amelia to elaborate on her feelings and experiences related to her identity.

Emily (00:40): "Talking about Pride specifically. Amelia is uncomfortable about Pride specifically because..."

Amelia (00:46): "I am going."

Amelia clarifies that her discomfort stems from her upcoming trip to the Boston Early Music Festival coinciding with the Pride Parade, leading her to question her participation.

Amelia (01:37): "I have not identified as straight kinda, ever."

Exploring Sexual Orientation and Past Relationships

Amelia reflects on her past, discussing her experiences in undergrad where she engaged in relationships with women, not out of personal identification but often as a means to make her boyfriends jealous. This history contributes to her current feelings of not fully identifying as straight.

Amelia (01:53): "I got used several times by girls to make their boyfriends jealous... Guys were everywhere all the time."

Emily (02:28): "But you also were not out as."

Amelia emphasizes that her long-term relationship has led her to live a life that appears entirely straight and feminine, further distancing her from queer identification.

Amelia (02:59): "I live a very straight life. I live a very feminine life."

Gender Identity and Community Perception

The conversation shifts to gender identity, with Amelia identifying as agender and expressing discomfort with outward displays of non-binary identity. She discusses the pressure within the trans community regarding medical transition and societal expectations.

Amelia (04:15): "I have had to replace my entire wardrobe twice in the past four years... I own one shirt with pink stripes and I haven't worn it in over a year."

Emily (05:01): "There's a debate about, like, are you even trans enough if you're not really requiring medical transition..."

Amelia shares anecdotes about transgender individuals grappling with societal expectations to conform to feminine ideals, highlighting the internal conflicts faced by those who do not undergo medical transitions.

Amelia (05:32): "They are she. They're pronouns now. And is non medical."

Pressure to Participate in Pride

Amelia articulates her internal struggle over whether she should participate in Pride, given that her identity is not overtly visible. She grapples with feelings of not being "queer enough" to take up space in Pride events.

Amelia (09:35): "Am I allowed to Pride?"

Emily (11:35): "This year in particular, it is important to remember that Pride started as protests."

Amelia questions her responsibility towards Pride as a form of protest and whether her presence would contribute meaningfully, given her perceived privilege and passing appearance.

Amelia (16:12): "Does the privilege mean that I should get out of the way or does the privilege mean that I should?"

Balancing Personal Well-being with Community Engagement

The hosts discuss the importance of processing one's identity and feelings through participation in community events like Pride. Amelia considers the impact of attending on her mental health, especially as someone on the autism spectrum who finds crowds overwhelming.

Amelia (14:20): "I consider my non participation in public Pride events to be a protection of my mental health because crowds are so intense and overwhelming for me because I'm so very fucking autistic."

Emily encourages Amelia to engage with Pride in a manner that aligns with her comfort level, suggesting attending on the periphery to experience the event without full immersion.

Emily (35:07): "You can touch Pride for the first time. It sounds like if I was going."

Amelia contemplates minimal participation, such as watching the parade from a nearby location, balancing her desire to engage with her need to maintain personal well-being.

Recommendations and Moving Forward

Emily recommends actions for Amelia to consider, including purchasing an Agender Pride pin to signify her identity and exploring how her participation can contribute to her sense of belonging without compromising her comfort.

Amelia (20:10): "Maybe I can just buy an Agender pin at Pride in Boston, maybe. And then it won't be just like, I bought this on Etsy. I'll be like, I bought this at Pride."

The conversation underscores the importance of self-processing and integrating one's identity within the broader community context, even amidst personal reservations and external pressures.

Emily (24:19): "It means complete the fucking cycle. It means feel the feelings that have been sitting there so that they can move through your body and out so that it can be integrated."

Conclusion: Embracing Complexity and Personal Choices

The episode concludes with Amelia acknowledging the complexity of her feelings and the absence of a straightforward solution. She decides to navigate her participation in Pride based on her personal circumstances, such as her plans to attend a 17th-century opera and the physical accessibility of events.

Amelia (34:03): "Maybe there is."

Emily (43:04): "Okay, then."

The hosts wrap up by emphasizing that Amelia's internal struggle is a shared experience among many, highlighting the diversity of identities and the varied relationships individuals have with community events like Pride.

Amelia (42:54): "You are not the only one who has this experience."

---

Key Takeaways

1. Identity Fluidity: Amelia's journey highlights the complexities of sexual and gender identity, especially for those who do not fit neatly into predefined categories.

2. Community and Representation: The episode underscores the importance of representation within Pride events and the internal conflicts individuals may face regarding their participation.

3. Mental Health Considerations: Balancing personal well-being with community engagement is crucial, particularly for individuals with sensory sensitivities or other mental health considerations.

4. Self-Processing and Integration: Engaging with one's identity through active participation can aid in processing and integrating complex feelings, fostering a stronger sense of self.

5. Personal Agency: Ultimately, the decision to participate in Pride is deeply personal, influenced by individual circumstances, comfort levels, and the desire to support and belong to a community.

Notable Quotes

• Amelia (09:35): "Am I allowed to Pride?"
• Emily (11:35): "This year in particular, it is important to remember that Pride started as protests."
• Amelia (14:20): "I consider my non participation in public Pride events to be a protection of my mental health because crowds are so intense and overwhelming for me because I'm so very fucking autistic."
• Emily (24:19): "It means complete the fucking cycle. It means feel the feelings that have been sitting there so that they can move through your body and out so that it can be integrated."

---

This episode delves into the nuanced interplay between personal identity and community participation, offering listeners a candid exploration of the challenges and considerations that come with navigating Pride Month as someone who feels both connected to and distant from the traditional narratives of queerness.

Transcript

[Amelia]

Hi, this is Amelia. I'm going to be doing lives Again, Fridays at 4 in May and June at our YouTube channel, YouTube.coministsurvivalproject I'll be answering questions, singing songs, and talking about Murderbot. I hope you can join us. June is busting out all over. All over the medals and the hand. We're talking about Pride month.

[Emery]

Talking about Pride specifically. Amelia is uncomfortable about Pride specifically because.

[Amelia]

I am going to Boston next week because they're homeless festival.

[Emery]

What? No, I'm just kidding. Like, why. Why would Amelia be uncomfortable with Pride? Because. It's.

[Amelia]

Because I'm going.

[Emery]

Because of how much you hate the gays. It's.

[Amelia]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That is. That is exactly what I meant. Yep. No, I'm going to Boston next week for the Boston Early Music Festival. But what's also happening in Boston next week is pride, the Pride Parade. And I was like, maybe I should go to Pride. And I was surprised at how much I struggled with that idea. I have not identified as straight kinda, ever. Like, in undergrad, I tried to date.

[Emery]

Girls, and I didn't know that.

[Amelia]

I got used several times by girls to make their boyfriends jealous, and that was as far as it got. Yeah. I was, like, into these girls, and a couple of times they're like, why.

[Emery]

Have you never told me this ever?

[Amelia]

It never mattered. Yeah. If I dated a girl, I would have been like, I'm dating this girl. But, like, all it was, the only girls that would be interested in me were ones that were like, let's go kiss and dance together so that my boyfriend sees. Yeah. Because it was the 90s. Yeah. And it was just much easier to date guys. Guys were everywhere all the time.

[Emery]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

So, like, it's not that I've ever identified as, like, completely straight.

[Emery]

Mm.

[Amelia]

And.

[Emery]

But you also were not out as. I mean, like, you've been in the same relationship since you were 21.

[Amelia]

Literally. I met. Well, I wasn't in this relationship at 21, but, like, I met my now husband when I was 21.

[Emery]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

So it has never mattered.

[Emery]

My.

[Amelia]

My interest in not men.

[Emery]

There was like, a year and a half where it could have mattered.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emery]

And that window closed and.

[Amelia]

And there were. There. And that window closed, and now I appear completely straight.

[Emery]

Hank Green actually says something similar. He's like, first of all, am I straight? But, like, I'm so married.

[Amelia]

Like, yeah, exactly. I'm so married. It doesn't matter. Like, Right. So I live a very straight life. I live a very feminine life.

[Emery]

I have also Like, I identified as bi before I ever had partnered sex.

[Amelia]

I didn't know there was an identity to be. Like, I have an identity. I didn't know there was. I was just like, oh, yeah.

[Emery]

So I encounter that as part of my training as a sex educator.

[Amelia]

You. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Emery]

And I don't talk about it because the world does not need a cisgender woman in a heterosexual marriage to be taken up space.

[Amelia]

Right, exactly. So. So I never like, did the pride.

[Emery]

Thing.

[Amelia]

Or like, outwardly identified because, like, it doesn't matter because I live a straight. A straight ass life, you know, Married to a dude.

[Emery]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

And afab, married to a dude. Always identified and lived my life as a woman because there was no other choice. I didn't think.

[Emery]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

And even now, like, I, you know, my life is very. This is, this is why I struggle with pride. It's like, do I pride because nothing in my life appears queer. Even my particular kind of non binaryness being agender and not really struggling with.

[Emery]

My not participating in like, medical transition.

[Amelia]

Right, right.

[Emery]

And you probably are not aware that there is actually conflict in the trans community about, like, I'm gonna, like, I'm not trying to speak for anybody, but like, there's like a debate about, like, are you even trans enough if you're not really requiring medical transition in order to feel like who you are?

[Amelia]

I know about this because of Mercury. Mercury Stardust as a. As the trans handyman now identifies as non binary.

[Emery]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

And go.

[Emery]

I think she.

[Amelia]

They are she. They're pronouns now. And is non medical.

[Emery]

One of my favorite videos of hers is people ask her, like, why, why don't you change your voice to sound more like a woman's voice? And their response is, if I'm a woman and this is my voice, this.

[Amelia]

Is a woman's voice. Yeah. And I. My first vocal student who was trans was really mourning the fact that she has a beautiful kind of baritone voice. And I was like, check this out. And I played Issa Barwell for her and she was like, yeah, I don't want that. Like, she really just wanted to sound.

[Emery]

I know. Yeah.

[Amelia]

Feminine. And especially Issaye Barnwell. It's kind of loaded because she's a black woman who has a very rich alto, low alto voice. She's from Sweet Honey and the Rock. You've definitely heard her sing for sure. But people want to conform to socially constructed ideals.

[Emery]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

And it's, you know, like, she wanted to be thin too. I'm like, yeah, you're like every woman then so you just.

[Emery]

Yep. Welcome to it.

[Amelia]

Yeah, welcome to it. So, like, I am aware that there is debate in the.

[Emery]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

Non CIS community as to whether you count as trans if you're not medically.

[Emery]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

Altered. And I.

[Emery]

Obviously the position we take is.

[Amelia]

Yes, of course you are.

[Emery]

There's no such thing as a right or wrong way to be trans.

[Amelia]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's about identity.

[Emery]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

And if you're a woman, then it doesn't matter what your body is. Right, right. Like, so then it doesn't matter if you medically change it or if you just live in the one you got.

[Emery]

Right. So you struggle with pride because.

[Amelia]

So. But I do feel the pressure of, like, not being. Of not appearing non. Binary. Like, so. Because I have had to replace my entire wardrobe twice in the past four years, I have had the opportunity to revisit what I actually want to wear. And because I'm not buying clothes to go to work, like at a jobby job, I've had the opportunity. Can I tell you that my closet is entirely blue and gray? I literally don't. I own one shirt with pink stripes and I haven't worn it in over a year. But all my other. All my other clothes are blue and gray and black.

[Emery]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

Oh.

[Emery]

I made the decision in, like 2016, in order to simplify shopping and packing for work, that I was only going to include items in my wardrobe that were black, gray, and navy blue.

[Amelia]

Yeah. I don't have a capsule wardrobe. I don't have a minimalist wardrobe.

[Emery]

No, me either.

[Amelia]

But I figured out that I just don't want to wear clothes that aren't blue or gray or black. And I have three dresses and they're all the same dress in different colors and fabrics, but it's the same universal standard button down shirt dress.

[Emery]

Yeah, yeah.

[Amelia]

That I own in blue linen. Black linen and. And long sleeve chambray cotton stretch. That I have owned another one in. In a smaller size.

[Emery]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

That I. So I have had the opportunity to buy all the clothes so that I can look the way I want to look. And the way I want to look, it turns out, is I want to wear dark solids yoga pants.

[Emery]

What? Dark solids that stretch? Dark.

[Amelia]

Dark solids that stretch. Yeah.

[Emery]

And because you're performing like, it's really part of the autism masking, you're recognizing who you truly are. And who you truly are is more androgynous, for sure.

[Amelia]

Like, I actually took, like a style quiz and the result was androgynous. Your style icons are Ellen Degeneres And I was like, no, but. Androgynous. Yes.

[Emery]

Right.

[Amelia]

So I'm. So I'm going to. I'm going to Boston. I'm going to be in town for the Pride parade and festival and Can I. Should I. Okay, so there's two questions. Am I allowed to Pride?

[Emery]

Are you. Are you actually. Because you know the answer.

[Amelia]

Of course I'm allowed. Allowed. Like, I get that I'm. Okay, like, I get that I'm technically allowed, but am I actually allowed? Like, I don't feel like I have. I have the most privileged LGBTQIA2 + life that you could have. Right.

[Emery]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

I'm completely passing for as standard vanilla as you could possibly ask for.

[Emery]

You could go to Pride recognizing that you present as an ally.

[Amelia]

I present as an ally. Yeah.

[Emery]

You could wear an Agender Pride pin.

[Amelia]

I don't have any Agender Pride merch.

[Emery]

You probably can't get one in time for Pride at this point.

[Amelia]

For sure. Not like that's considered. I have shopped on Etsy for Agender Pride merch, and I could never bring myself to buy a thing. Cause, I don't know.

[Emery]

Feels.

[Amelia]

Feels like I don't look.

[Emery]

So I am struggling to understand your concern. Okay.

[Amelia]

I guess it's just feelings that I have.

[Emery]

You have feelings about Pride?

[Amelia]

I have feelings like I'm not allowed to Pride because I'm not non binary enough. Because I'm not to be proud yet. To, like. Yeah. I'm not being proud if I've got nothing to push back against. Right.

[Emery]

So what I'll say is that this year in particular, it is important to remember that Pride started as protests.

[Amelia]

Right. Yeah.

[Emery]

Here we are. We're going to take up space that is denied us because of our identities and get used to it. We hear we're queer, get used to it.

[Amelia]

So here's my next question is, do I have a responsibility to Pride as protest? I know this seems like completely opposite questions, but. But they live in my head together. Am I allowed to? And do I have to? Am I supposed to? Should I. Does.

[Emery]

Does the world.

[Amelia]

Would the world be bet. Would the world say, you should be out being vocal because you are so, like, not seeming. I hate to go in the LGBTQ IG plus like, every single time. I wish there was, like, a. A thing I could say, which is why I keep. I keep saying queer, but I'm not. I know that some people aren't okay with the word queer.

[Emery]

Some people are not. But it's your identity, so you get to choose what words you use.

[Amelia]

Yeah. See, I don't feel like I have permission to do that because I'm not queer enough.

[Emery]

Yes. I feel like I don't have permission. Like, I don't feel good using that word because it's not up to me to take up that space. And I. And it is comfortable and easy for me to say. LGBTQIA2 plus, here's, here's. Here's a piece of this that is a struggle for me. Pride is a parade. Pride is a party. Pride is a crowd.

[Amelia]

Right. And it's.

[Emery]

Why would you want to.

[Amelia]

Well, see, am I supposed to. Am I, Am I. Is it a. Is this like a protestee showing up? We're here, get used to it. Thing that I should be doing.

[Emery]

In how to Tell When We Will Die, which is a book primarily about, like, disability, Johanna Hedva writes about acknowledging that anytime there is a protest in the street, there's also a whole bunch of disabled people.

[Amelia]

Right.

[Emery]

In their beds who would participate in it if they could.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emery]

And they can't. And I consider my non participation in public Pride events to be a protection of my mental health because crowds are so intense and overwhelming for me because I'm so very fucking autistic.

[Amelia]

Yeah. Well, I'm going to be in Boston already, staying at a hotel less than a mile from the parade route. Like, if I was ever gonna go to Pride, this is how I would do it. When I happen to be in town for an early music festival, I'm gonna be there that night to go see 17th century opera. Like, that's what I'm there for. But I happen to be staying at this hotel and I'll be there with my wheelchair and, like, the weather's going to be nice, at least as far as they know right now. Yeah. And I'm like, should I go? Oh, am I allowed to go? And so that's. I just thought we. Surely. I'm not the only one with these conflicted, confused especially. Is it. Is it because I'm, like, technically kind of a baby gay? Because I'm just out? Like, as far as you're concerned, I just came out to you as not straight. Does that technically make me a baby gay? No. I thought it was like, beginners at being out. No. Okay.

[Emery]

I mean, so you're.

[Amelia]

You're not.

[Emery]

You're not. You're not a gay.

[Amelia]

No, no, I know. I know.

[Emery]

This is. This is hard for me because. Because my response is so very much like, why would you want to go? And if you do want to go, Obviously you can go, anybody can go. Straight people go as allies. There's probably straight people outnumbering gay people just by sheer population volume.

[Amelia]

Right.

[Emery]

And does it matter how you are perceived? Because as you say, we have all the privilege.

[Amelia]

Yeah. So does the privilege mean.

[Emery]

Does the, Is the.

[Amelia]

Does the privilege mean that I should get out of the way or does the privilege mean that I should? It's a parade and I guess this is true. Yeah. No, it's not just a parade, though. There's also like a.

[Emery]

You're not gonna march in the parade.

[Amelia]

Go into City Hall. Yeah, sure. No, no, of course not. No, no.

[Emery]

The point is to go take up space.

[Amelia]

Yes, exactly. Should I go take up space? Am I allowed to. Am I a person who matters in that space? Or is it. Or do I. No, you. You really don't see how there's like any like discomfort with the question of. You're just like, it's a parade, therefore.

[Emery]

No, it's a parade and it's a social justice event and you care about. Not just you, it's about all of the people who are being so intensely targeted this year. In particular. In particular, more than in a big chunk of recent history.

[Amelia]

Yeah. And look, okay, so this is also coming in the context of like LA this week is like military, Marines, American military, being sent into an American city.

[Emery]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

Which is, as far as I understand, a violation of the law. There are not supposed to be American military operations against American citizens and a legal order.

[Emery]

And members of the military take an oath to the Constitution and therefore have a legal obligation not to follow illegal orders.

[Amelia]

And yet there they are.

[Emery]

And yet there they are. Yep.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emery]

Because it feels like an oath to the leader, but it isn't. It's an oath to the Constitution.

[Amelia]

Anyway, so there they are. And at the same time with the immigration sweeps.

[Emery]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

Just like picking people up off the street and deporting them without due process.

[Emery]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

You think that they, that people who are visibly non conforming to gender aren't going to attract attention and aren't going to be next on the list.

[Emery]

Right.

[Amelia]

If, if there's no habeas corpus, then you can be just identified as, as unwantable and, and picked up and sent away. And that's illegal. But it's happening.

[Emery]

Yep.

[Amelia]

And you know, first they're coming for the migrants next, who do they think they're going to come for next? People of color? Queers?

[Emery]

Lgbtqia.

[Amelia]

Two plus people.

[Emery]

Yep.

[Amelia]

We just did. We just talked about unmasking for Life by Devon Price. And he keeps calling people with autism. Autistics.

[Emery]

Yeah, autistics.

[Amelia]

And that, like, that hits a little wrong for me.

[Emery]

Yeah, it's a little wrong for me, too.

[Amelia]

Anyway.

[Emery]

And clearly it feels like a really good fit for him.

[Amelia]

Yeah. Which. Okay, so in this context where, like, protest is really important right now, showing up not just peacefully, but also joyfully in public for the optics of, like, numbers of numbers, I feel like there's some responsibility, but I also feel like my number might not be a valid number.

[Emery]

There's gonna be lots and lots of fully straight CIS people.

[Amelia]

Yeah, that's true. But I guess because my internal sensation of.

[Emery]

Non straightness and non cisness.

[Amelia]

Non cisness is so. Is so internal. It's so internal. And I. I, like, there's part of me that wants it to be external. What do I do with that?

[Emery]

Do an Etsy search for an Agender pin.

[Amelia]

All right. I have never been able to bring myself to purchase swag. Like, the idea of Pride. Maybe I can just buy. I bet I'll be able to buy an Agender pin at Pride in Boston, maybe. And then it won't be just like, I bought this on Etsy. I'll be like, I bought this at Pride. Maybe that's what I should do. Maybe that's my solution. Maybe we've solved my problem.

[Emery]

Your mission is to shop for an. Do you know what the Agender flag looks like?

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emery]

Okay.

[Amelia]

Black and gray and white and green. Like a neon green. Like a very unpleasant green.

[Emery]

So there you go.

[Amelia]

Okay.

[Emery]

I still don't understand why it's hard. Have you never been to Pride before?

[Amelia]

I've never been to Pride as an ally. No. It's a parade. Why would I go to a parade? But there's. Look, it's important this year. It's important and showing up and being like.

[Emery]

And you're gonna be in a city, as opposed to, like, tiny little village, small town. Hamide. This is like the kind of pride that's going to be covered on the news.

[Amelia]

Yes. There are media stands on them on the Google map. So there are places where the media is going to be so it's covered.

[Emery]

By the news and you can just, like, avoid being interviewed.

[Amelia]

Oh, yeah. No, no, no. Yeah. There's no chance of that.

[Emery]

So you. I feel like it's an important part of your processing, your identity and your place, if any, in the community to go and, like, sit in that complexity. Go, be there. Feel what it feels like.

[Amelia]

Okay.

[Emery]

Process it. And then come back and be like, here's What? It was like.

[Amelia]

Something in my body said no to that.

[Emery]

Interesting.

[Amelia]

I kind of blanked out what you said. I sort of dissociated a little bit. Wow. So you need to say it again.

[Emery]

It's an important part of your process of.

[Amelia]

Oh, processing my. Oh, fuck.

[Emery]

Your. Your place in the community, if any, and your own identity by putting yourself in that context and feeling what it feels.

[Amelia]

I literally, like, heard you say it, and then it disappeared from my memory.

[Emery]

Wow.

[Amelia]

And then had all these feelings. I don't know why.

[Emery]

Well, there is a reason why you haven't even told me. You were kind of interested in girls, and we're 48, and I am who I am.

[Amelia]

It never mattered. It literally never came up.

[Emery]

It wasn't until now that. Okay, sure. And there's a reason why you also, like, are so late, like, recognizing your relationship with your assigned gender. And, like, it's like, I accept that it was never relevant. And also, like, it could be. There is absolutely risk in being out. The reason it's a big deal is that there is actual risk in being out.

[Amelia]

I don't think for me. I don't think there's any risk for me. Which is part of the. Am I allowed? Slash, am I responsible? Am I allowed? Do I have to? Like, I. I guess I have to go process it.

[Emery]

But when you say those words, you do not have the big. You don't have the big rush of emotion when you talk about, am I allowed? Do I have responsibility? Do I have to? That's not what gives you the big feelings. The big feelings is, go put yourself in that situation and feel what it feels like.

[Amelia]

No, the big feelings was process my. Oh, I don't even know what process means. Like, what.

[Emery]

It means complete the fucking cycle. It means feel the feelings that have been sitting there so that they can move through your body and out so that it can be integrated.

[Amelia]

Well, I think maybe that's 48 years worth of feelings, so. Fuck.

[Emery]

Yeah, there's. There's an integration that happens when people process these things. And following that integration, people are different.

[Amelia]

Integration is just like having it be a part of your understanding of yourself. Yeah.

[Emery]

So fortunately, we're gonna do. We're gonna do an episode on Shadow Work.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emery]

You're going to be incorporating this aspect of your identity that you have been squishing like a cockroach under your shoe.

[Amelia]

The thing is, I haven't been squishing it like a cockroach under my shoe.

[Emery]

Haven't you?

[Amelia]

No. I just didn't know There was a word for it.

[Emery]

Process your identity. Sob face. Come on. Fuck you.

[Amelia]

Oh. Oh. I haven't been squishing it, but I definitely haven't processed it. It's been in storage. It's been in storage?

[Emery]

It's been in storage. Where has it been in storage?

[Amelia]

In the garage?

[Emery]

Yeah. That's an excellent place to put shit you never intend to clear out. You're just gonna leave it there. You're gonna die, and people are going to be like, what's all this? I don't know, but it was in the garage. It's trash.

[Amelia]

That's not true for my garage.

[Emery]

Okay? If I have to clear out your stuff, anything I find in the garage, I'm going to be like, it was in the garage. I'm going to throw it out.

[Amelia]

Okay, well, everything that's in my garage belongs in my garage, okay? It's stuff that can't be anywhere else. Yard tools and my wheelchairs and my car extension cords and your identity and my. Shut up.

[Emery]

Because this isn't your literal garage. It's your metaphorical garage. Your metaphorical garage is where you put the stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else.

[Amelia]

But when I say when I say when I say, you're an asshole.

[Emery]

Welcome to why I didn't become a therapist. Because I'm like, here are the words you said. Here are the words that, when I said them, they made you have a feeling. No, let's go back to the words that you said that made you have a feeling. And all I'm doing is repeating the words you said and the words that.

[Amelia]

Why is identity so hard?

[Emery]

I don't know.

[Amelia]

Well, figure it out.

[Emery]

Why is identity so hard?

[Amelia]

I don't know.

[Emery]

We wrote a whole chapter about how there is a chasm between who you are and who you're expected to be. That is the identity shit. You. You are more comfortable having a conversation with your madwoman than with who you are. And it's not every aspect of who you are. It's maybe not just this one or these ones, but, like, these are the ones that are sitting in front of us right now. And they're like, hi, I exist. That's your gender identity. And then your sexual orientation is like, I, too, exist. And you're like, can I go to Pride? Must I go to Pride? What is my relationship with showing up in public to fight for the rights of people who. Who have parts that are like my parts?

[Amelia]

Yes. What's the answer to that? I don't know.

[Emery]

You got to go put yourself in that experience and process, what it feels like, I thought there'd be an answer.

[Amelia]

Like, oh, well, here's where allyship meets something else. The being of a.

[Emery]

And instead, it's like, you're not an ally. You're a member of the community, whether you like it or not. What kind of.

[Amelia]

But am I, though? I mean, yes, but I don't look like it, so does it matter?

[Emery]

Let me tell you about an experience I had back when I was a grad student and I was doing a lot of work directly around lgbtqia, two issues and with that community. There is a National Day of Silence where you spend the whole day not speaking. So I participated in the National Day of Silence, and at the same time that on that day, I happened to be preparing for an event, and I had to go to a giant big box hardware store, and I couldn't find the thing I was looking for. But because I was participating in National Day of Silence, which is like an honoring of the ways that people cannot talk about who they are, that they cannot come out, that if they do speak, there are unwanted consequences. When I was in that hardware store and I couldn't ask for the help I needed, that was when I was like, oh, this is why we do. National Day of Silence is so that people who have never had to confront the potential consequences of coming out have to face the consequences of not being able to ask for the help you need.

[Amelia]

And how did that relate to your identity? I'm looking for clues. I'm looking for you to solve the problem for me. So the cuz solving it seems hard.

[Emery]

This is a story about not being able to.

[Amelia]

Yeah, no, I know, I know, I know. You putting yourself in your. In the place of somebody having the experience of somebody who really couldn't do the thing that you were voluntarily choosing not to do. Right. Which is sort of like showing up at a thing to represent.

[Emery]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

Stuff.

[Emery]

There was also. On that same day, I had lunch with a group of people, including somebody I had never met before, who was a friend of a friend of mine who was at the lunch. And the friend and I were both participating in National Day of Silence. And when this new person came and sat down, they asked what my name was, and I was like, I don't know. They silence. I cannot tell this person who I am. And my friend who was also participating said my name out loud. And the new person happened to be Japanese. And so she said, hi, Emery, because in Japanese, l and R are the same sound. And so what she heard was Emery. Which is an English language word and name. And neither my friend nor I. He had already like broken the rules by saying my name. Was he going to do it again to correct that pronunciation when like, how much does it matter?

[Amelia]

Not at all. Yeah.

[Emery]

So I can't ask for help. I can't tell people who I am when they make assumptions or hear something that isn't correct. I can't let them know what's actually true about me. That one was closer. For the people listening at home, that second anecdote was the one that resulted in sob face.

[Amelia]

So what do I do?

[Emery]

Tell people who you are or just process what it feels like to think about telling people who you are.

[Amelia]

So I should go. That was extremely high pitched. So I should go.

[Emery]

I don't know. What experience do you want to have?

[Amelia]

I mostly want to go see a 17th century opera.

[Emery]

Sure.

[Amelia]

And I.

[Emery]

Is the opera before or after the parade?

[Amelia]

After.

[Emery]

Okay. So I'm going to ask you to be real about your spoons and say, will you be sacrificing your ability to see the play the opera if you go sit in the discomfort?

[Amelia]

Maybe.

[Emery]

In which case it's a solid maybe. So I'm gonna. Because I would say that the 17th century opera is much closer to your core identity than this is, simply because it is the thing you have been doing with your life for the last 30 years as opposed to the other thing. So don't sacrifice the opera.

[Amelia]

I already had to sacrifice one of the operas because I had a sinus infection and couldn't. It was too sick to go to the first weekend's opera.

[Emery]

So imagine how you would feel at the end of Pride when you get back to your hotel room and you are post exertional malaise processing my identity. Yeah. You have. You're like too exhausted. Your body cannot get you to this other opera.

[Amelia]

Yeah, that would suck.

[Emery]

So maybe there is.

[Amelia]

I paid so much money for these tickets and I've had to miss half the festival.

[Emery]

If you could be at the periphery of the event and just sort of see it rather than being in it, you can touch it without having to go sit in it.

[Amelia]

That is. The plan would be to just go to the parade, the point of the parade that is closest to the hotel, which is less than half a mile from the hotel, and just be like on the sidewalk. I'm at Pride.

[Emery]

Woo. Yeah. Which you can do for one float's worth of time and be like, I went to Pride.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emery]

I touched Pride for the first time. It sounds like if I was going.

[Amelia]

To go get an agender pin, I'd have to go all the way to Boston Common, which is like almost a full mile.

[Emery]

Let me offer another anecdote. When I went to Disneyland for the first time, I really wanted to get a trash can ornament. So the trash cans in Disney resorts are legend. And for a while, you could buy trash can, like Christmas tree ornaments, basically. So I went to the store where they would be sold, and the lady told me, yeah, we don't sell them anymore. And I was like, okay. But I came and I asked. And so now when I go buy one on ebay, I have the story.

[Amelia]

Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah.

[Emery]

And I have the thing. So you can go touch pride and then go get your pin on Etsy.

[Amelia]

I would never, ever wear that pin. Never. Not once.

[Emery]

You wouldn't wear it to the opera that night if you had one, because it's pride.

[Amelia]

Would I?

[Emery]

It's not just pride of the parade. It's a month. It's every event out and proud.

[Amelia]

That's true. Maybe. Maybe. I have pins.

[Emery]

I don't wear identity pins.

[Amelia]

No fawn pins.

[Emery]

There's a recent novel called woodworking by Emily St. James, which is. So the. The main story is about a trans girl in high school and her teacher who is trans and not out to anyone.

[Amelia]

Oh.

[Emery]

And it is meeting this trans student.

[Amelia]

Like trans and passing or trans and.

[Emery]

Like not out to anyone, living as a completely different gender, the gender they were assigned. She was assigned one gender, and her whole internal identity is different. And she has not told anybody.

[Amelia]

Right.

[Emery]

And has not felt pressure inside herself to tell anybody, even herself, until she's confronted with this trans student who is living out and proud and bearing the consequences of being out proud. So the part of the story I actually wanted to tell, the reason the book is called Woodworking, is because they talk about people who transition early and then abandon everything they have ever known, go to live someplace else. As cisgender people in their. In their identity, they disappear into the woodwork. Is why it's called woodworking. They are in deep undercover. And the result is that they are safe, safer than they would be if they were out as trans. And they are disconnected from a huge part of their life. And they are disconnected from a community of people who would recognize and cherish what's actually true about them.

[Amelia]

Continue. I interrupted because I had sob face.

[Emery]

So the. In the acknowledgments, Emily St. James says thank you to the trans woman who came to the trans support group. She had been Living stealth for decades. This is the first time she's come out to anyone as trans in all of these years. She shows up one time, she sobs out her story and disappears back into the woodwork. And Emily St. James will never know this person's full story. And she'll never know what it's like to live disconnected from a community of people who would fully accept everything that you are and feel. And also recognizes the the benefits of trading who you are for safety. It's a good book. Highly recommend. Audiobook is real good.

[Amelia]

What's it called again?

[Emery]

There's a Woodworking is the title of the book. There's a really clever trick in the audiobook. Anytime somebody deadnames the teacher narrator who is again living not her actual gender, but her assigned gender. And so she gets dead named all the fucking time. And so instead of playing the name, there's some white noise. Oh that's great.

[Amelia]

That might be jarring.

[Emery]

I think the text of the book has the name represented as asdf. Just like noise on a keyboard.

[Amelia]

So the answer is maybe.

[Emery]

Yeah. So you can tell us what choice you make. We'll. We'll check back in.

[Amelia]

So what I gotta do is listen to the part of me that's in the garage.

[Emery]

Yes.

[Amelia]

Which I was kind of hoping you would just tell me what to do because you're the expert lady.

[Emery]

Uh huh.

[Amelia]

No.

[Emery]

One of the things that I say over and over again is I'm an expert in science facts. I'm not an expert in you.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emery]

There's only one of those that sucks. And it's you.

[Amelia]

Well, I'll probably decide on the day when I do. And it probably depends on whether or not I go to the morning seminar about the producing of the opera that I did not get to attend. Which might depend on how late I'm up the night before, which might depend on how early I get to leave the daeba. So it's really going to depend on a lot of physical accessibility questions.

[Emery]

Yeah. Other marginalized aspects of your identity.

[Amelia]

But I've been addressing those on the regular for years now. So those are not the parts that are gonna give me sob face.

[Emery]

Right.

[Amelia]

I get.

[Emery]

I'll.

[Amelia]

I'll figure it out on Saturday. Then I'll figure it out and I'll. We'll, we'll get. We'll make the thumbnail of the YouTube version of this either a picture of me at the opera or a picture of me at Pride.

[Emery]

Okay. Was this an episode?

[Amelia]

I think yes. I think it's a short minisode or. Actually, there's at least 20 minutes of stuff.

[Emery]

Yeah, I think it's an episode because.

[Amelia]

I think I cannot be the only one.

[Emery]

You are not the only one who has this experience. Yeah.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emery]

And I got to recommend a book.

[Amelia]

And you got to recommend a book. Yeah.

[Emery]

Okay, then.

[Amelia]

Okay, so thanks. And thanks for listening. Cue the ukulele.

[Emery]

We did it.

[Amelia]

I'm looking for clues. I'm looking for you to solve the problem for me because solving it seems hard.