Decluttering Momentum and the Doom Box

Summary

Podcast Summary: Feminist Survival Project – "Decluttering Momentum and the Doom Box"

Episode Information:

• Title: Decluttering Momentum and the Doom Box
• Release Date: February 28, 2025
• Hosts: Emily Nagoski and Amelia Nagoski
• Description: A podcast for feminists who feel overwhelmed and exhausted by everything they need to do, and still worry that we're not doing enough - hosted by Emily and Amelia Nagoski, authors of BURNOUT: the secret to unlocking the stress cycle.

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1. Introduction

The episode begins with Amelia announcing a new initiative where she will be going live on their YouTube channel every Friday at 4 PM Eastern Time from February 21st through the end of March. These sessions will include answering questions, singing songs, and engaging in light-hearted activities ([00:01]–[00:50]).

2. Decluttering the Doombox

Amelia introduces the concept of a "doombox," a container for items that have been moved but not organized, famously coined by decluttering expert Dana K. White. She shares her journey into decluttering momentum and how it has led her to tackle her own doombox ([00:50]–[02:01]).

• Amelia: “I have a box here that was packed in 2021... four years later, unopened.” ([02:00])

3. Decluttering Momentum and Methods

Amelia and Rich delve into the mechanics of decluttering, discussing the importance of momentum and how it helps in gradually organizing spaces without feeling overwhelmed. Amelia explains that her living space is already tidy, allowing her the bandwidth to engage in deeper decluttering tasks ([02:01]–[05:24]).

• Rich: “But the default is gonna be get rid of it cause you haven't needed it for these many years.” ([04:22])

4. Taking Action: The "Take It There Right Now" Rule

A significant portion of the episode focuses on the "Take It There Right Now" rule advocated by Dana K. White. This method encourages immediate action—putting items in their designated places rather than postponing decisions, which often leads to maintaining clutter ([05:24]–[15:03]).

• Rich: “That's where you have to make a move to take it there right now rule.” ([26:36])

5. Organizing Styles and Personal Systems

Amelia discusses her meticulous organizing style, rooted in micro-categorization, which suits her detail-oriented nature and supports her neurodivergent needs. She contrasts her approach with Rich's more general system, highlighting how personalized organizational strategies can significantly impact the effectiveness of decluttering ([35:12]–[41:34]).

• Amelia: “I sort by those. My underwear drawer is always tidy because I put things away when I have a very detailed system.” ([36:04])

6. Emotional Aspects of Decluttering

The conversation shifts to the emotional challenges of decluttering, especially when it involves sentimental items. Amelia shares her experiences with letting go of items inherited from grandparents and how recognizing that these items occupy physical and mental space has been a breakthrough ([66:35]–[67:56]).

• Amelia: “Just keeping that stuff in a box in the basement is... that stuff is paying rent in my house.” ([66:35])

7. Insights from Decluttering Experts

Hosts reference various decluttering experts, including Dana K. White, Cass Arson, and the Minimalist Mom. They discuss different philosophies and techniques, emphasizing the importance of finding a method that aligns with one's personal needs and lifestyle. Amelia mentions her admiration for Cass Arson’s humorous approach and the OrganizedSoprano's practical tips ([52:08]–[57:07]).

• Rich: “Cass Arson, Dana K. White, and Dawn, the Minimalist Mom, collaborate on the Take Your Haspack course.” ([52:08])

8. Practical Tips and Personal Anecdotes

Amelia provides practical examples of decluttering, such as organizing mail with a three-section system and handling specific items like packing cubes and old electronics. She shares anecdotes about managing household items, demonstrating how incremental changes lead to significant improvements in her living space ([42:21]–[58:35]).

• Amelia: “So now there’ll be like a section, and when that section gets full, I gotta actually address that.” ([43:39])

9. The Impact of Decluttering on Daily Life

The hosts discuss how decluttering has transformed Amelia's home into a more serene and manageable space. Amelia notes that her house is no longer just tidy but feels more intentional and controlled, which contributes to her overall well-being ([46:24]–[52:08]).

• Amelia: “So it turns out having less stuff feels nice.” ([46:43])

10. Conclusion and Encouragement

In wrapping up, Amelia and Rich reflect on the progress made during the episode. They encourage listeners to engage in decluttering alongside them, highlighting the benefits of reducing physical clutter for mental clarity. Amelia emphasizes that the decluttering journey is ongoing and that each step, no matter how small, contributes to a more organized and peaceful living environment ([68:46]–[71:07]).

• Rich: “There are times when I really need silence while I declutter... And it was fucking joyful.” ([68:59]–[69:50])
• Amelia: “So most of the things were 100% emotion-free. Obvious trash, obvious donation.” ([28:47])

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Amelia ([02:43]): “I have a box here that was packed in 2021... four years later, unopened.”
• Rich ([04:22]): “But the default is gonna be get rid of it cause you haven't needed it for these many years.”
• Amelia ([36:04]): “My underwear drawer is always tidy because I put things away when I have a very detailed system.”
• Rich ([52:08]): “Cass Arson, Dana K. White, and Dawn, the Minimalist Mom, collaborate on the Take Your Haspack course.”
• Amelia ([66:35]): “Just keeping that stuff in a box in the basement is... that stuff is paying rent in my house.”
• Rich ([28:47]): “There were two things that took more than half a second to think about where they go.”

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Key Takeaways

1. Decluttering Momentum: Building momentum is crucial for maintaining progress in decluttering tasks. Starting small and gradually tackling more significant projects helps prevent feeling overwhelmed.

2. Immediate Action: Implementing the "Take It There Right Now" rule ensures that decisions about items are made promptly, reducing the likelihood of clutter accumulation.

3. Personalized Systems: Developing an organizational system that aligns with one's personality and lifestyle, such as micro-categorization for detail-oriented individuals, enhances the effectiveness of decluttering efforts.

4. Emotional Management: Addressing the emotional aspects of decluttering, especially with sentimental items, is essential for making sustainable changes.

5. Expert Insights: Learning from various decluttering experts provides diverse strategies and philosophies, allowing individuals to adopt methods that best suit their needs.

6. Incremental Changes: Making small, consistent changes leads to significant improvements in the living environment, contributing to mental clarity and reduced stress.

7. Inclusive Decluttering: Recognizing that decluttering can be particularly beneficial for neurodivergent, disabled, or chronically ill individuals by creating a more manageable and supportive home environment.

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Final Thoughts

"Decluttering Momentum and the Doom Box" offers a comprehensive exploration of the decluttering process through personal narratives and expert advice. Amelia and Rich provide valuable insights into managing clutter in a thoughtful and methodical manner, making the episode an engaging and practical guide for listeners seeking to enhance their living spaces and reduce stress.

Transcript

[Amelia]

Hi everybody, this is Amelia. I wanted to let you know that I'm going to be trying something new on Fridays at 4. I'm going to be going live on our YouTube channel. That's YouTube.com feministsurvivalproject. I'll be going live Fridays at 4 Eastern Time. And from February 21st through the end of March, we'll be answering questions, singing songs, and generally just having a nice time. I hope you'll join me.

[Rich]

That is my preparatory Lacroix. Because today you are decluttering a doombox. What's a doombox?

[Amelia]

Ever since we did the intro to decluttering, I have gone down the rabbit hole.

[Rich]

There's a thing called decluttering momentum.

[Amelia]

I. I mean, there's also such a thing as autistic hyper focus.

[Rich]

Yes.

[Amelia]

Which we'll talk about probably in a shortly upcoming episode.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

But like, I've watched dozens of hours of Dana K. 1.

[Rich]

But it's not just you, Rich, who edits these. Also, like every time he takes a break, he spends five minutes decluttering stuff.

[Amelia]

Yeah. As I'm unpacking this doombox, maybe people want to do the body double thing and declutter something of their own.

[Rich]

But you've been like mainlining Dana K. White.

[Amelia]

I've been mainlining Dana K. White content. Yeah.

[Rich]

She cracked the code.

[Amelia]

And like, look, my house is not at a point where it's out of control or unmanageable.

[Rich]

Right.

[Amelia]

My house is basically fine. If a stranger came to my door, I could open my door and not be like, oh my God, my house is embarrassing.

[Rich]

Right.

[Amelia]

You know, it's. If a visitor is coming, give me 20 minutes and I can make sure everything's tidied.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

And I'm fine with how my house looks, you know?

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

So it's not like it was an urgent thing for me. So I kind of had stopped bothering.

[Rich]

Sure.

[Amelia]

But now that I have, as you say, decluttering momentum, I'm looking at this box. I have a doombox. Doom, I guess stand stands for didn't organize, only moved.

[Rich]

I didn't know that. That's really good.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

Oh, that's relatable.

[Amelia]

Yeah. Yeah. And so I have a box here that was packed in 2021.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

In our old house. And we moved to this house. And this was a box from my office that I was using as my, you know, work from home office. And it got moved into the barn because the barn was going to be my office.

[Rich]

Right.

[Amelia]

And so here it is four years later, unopened.

[Rich]

Didn't organize. Only moved.

[Amelia]

Didn't organize.

[Rich]

Didn't open.

[Amelia]

Didn't I? Yeah.

[Rich]

So let's do it.

[Amelia]

So here, I'm going to open it. Here's. I'm taking the lid off.

[Rich]

Yeah. Because one of the rules is look, look. Always look.

[Amelia]

Yeah. So it's a banker box. So that's the size we're talking about.

[Rich]

It's not.

[Amelia]

It's not huge.

[Rich]

And what are your feelings about the box?

[Amelia]

I'm curious what's in it? I'm guessing most of this is a.

[Rich]

Great state of mind.

[Amelia]

I've never needed any. I mean, I've never gone like.

[Rich]

That's the thing is you could just discard everything because for four years you haven't even wondered if a thing you needed might be in that box. It has. It has been time tested.

[Amelia]

I do have another doombox that I do occasionally go through. Like looking, pawing through, looking for a thing I need. But I haven't actually unpacked it. This is not that box. This is the box I haven't opened. Although now that I'm looking at it, I have opened it because there's another box in it. That's a box that I got since we moved here. Since you moved.

[Rich]

So you opened it and put something else in it?

[Amelia]

Yeah. What's in here is some.

[Rich]

Wait, let me say that dawn, from the minimum mom would call that a time will tell box. That is a time told box. All of that is unnecessary. And you could, if you wanted to, just the whole thing. But let's go through.

[Amelia]

I don't wanna. I don't wanna. Yeah, yeah.

[Rich]

But the default is gonna be get rid of it. Cause you haven't needed it lo these many years.

[Amelia]

Except that it turns out after I open it, there is a thing in here that I put in here. So I had some interaction with this box in the past.

[Rich]

So what's the thing you put in?

[Amelia]

It's a box of pins that I got to give away at in person talks when I ran out of copies of Burnout.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

And they went like a house of fire. They were so popular. And I gave them all away. And I thought I ran out, but look, it turns out I have a.

[Rich]

Box of more pins.

[Amelia]

Of more.

[Rich]

Well, we have events this year, so.

[Amelia]

Yeah, we have events this year.

[Rich]

Great.

[Amelia]

And I do have a place that I keep swag for giving.

[Rich]

You have a place? Like this is the first place I would look for swag.

[Amelia]

Yeah. Where I keep. So I'm just going to go put it there now.

[Rich]

Put it there right now. I'll be back and we're going to time how long it takes. Amelia going to put it there right now. Because a lot of people are like, oh, I don't want to stop my decluttering and go take it there right now. Because it's going to ruin my momentum. It's going to take so much time. I'm going to get to that place and I'm going to forget what I was doing and I'm not going to come back. Bearing in mind also that Emelia is disabled and moves real slow. And that was about 20 seconds. Took you about 20 seconds to. Yeah, it's put that box where it goes.

[Amelia]

I packed. This is an office box. Put in the place that's going to be my office. So probably if anything goes anywhere, it's going to go in this room.

[Rich]

Okay.

[Amelia]

I'm supposed to look for trash first.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

Here's an empty plastic bag. Plastic bag that I can use as my trash.

[Rich]

Amazing.

[Amelia]

I mean, I already had a trash can, but hey, now I can use this trash.

[Rich]

We are fortunate to have plastic film recycling at our big Y. I don't know if you have plastic film recycling available to you anywhere on the Cape.

[Amelia]

No, I don't think so. I mean, if somebody. If I do, I'm sure someone will let me know.

[Rich]

Yeah. Anyway, you don't have an established routine for plastic.

[Amelia]

I don't have an established routine for practice film.

[Rich]

What is that? This?

[Amelia]

This is a. This is an LED light. It's a motion sensor LED light that I used in our bathroom in the old house. It's like an LED strip light and it is. It is broken. It is physically falling apart and it does not work. So it's e waste.

[Rich]

Okay.

[Amelia]

And I have a place for e waste. More trash. This is a pocket sized tissue packet with one tissue in it. I'm throwing away the packet and I'm putting the tissue in my tissue box.

[Rich]

Progress and only progress. If you stopped right now, it would only be better.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

You would not have made a mess.

[Amelia]

There's another empty plastic bag.

[Rich]

Wow, you moved a lot of trash.

[Amelia]

This is a bag of parts.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

I don't know what they're too.

[Rich]

Is that obvious?

[Amelia]

Trash it is now.

[Rich]

Okay.

[Amelia]

Obviously when I packed it, I thought, oh, I might need that. But now I don't even know what it was for. It's for some piece of furniture or something. But yeah, I don't know.

[Rich]

So I have feelings about that kind of thing. You can keep decluttering while I Say this. I used to have a lot of feelings about getting rid of the extra parts that came with stuff you bought to assemble it. Or like you buy a vacuum cleaner, it comes with 15 attachments. I had a lot of feelings about getting rid of that stuff. But like I am not corporate America. Corporate America decided that the way to sell us stuff was to give us a whole bunch of extra stuff for free. But all that extra stuff isn't actually free in any sense. But in particular in terms of our household, we have to find a place to put it. We have to maintain it and remember that it exists and then feel bad if we're not using it. So if something came free with something you wanted, that's, that's easy donate easy trash. I now try really hard to buy stuff that doesn't come with free bonus stuff. That is not the thing I was going to buy.

[Amelia]

Yeah. So here's a little silicone travel container that I will keep. But it's full of pills that I don't know what they are.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

And I'm gonna throw them away.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

Because they've been in this box for four years. Whatever they are, they're expired.

[Rich]

Right. If people are feeling extra meticulous and have the bandwidth, you can take a photo of a pill and get an do an image search to find out what there's a.

[Amelia]

There's a number. They're coded. I could find out what they are. But.

[Rich]

But they're four years. Packed for four years. They, they're probably way more than four years old. What was that? A belt?

[Amelia]

This is a piece of cloth fabric ribbon that came when I ordered a thing and it came wrapped in this like cool, nice cotton fabric ribbon.

[Rich]

Potentially useful. That's trash.

[Amelia]

Yeah, that's trash.

[Rich]

In my house I would put it in textile recycling.

[Amelia]

Here's a piece of string.

[Rich]

That's trash.

[Amelia]

Okay. This is a packing cube.

[Rich]

And what's in it? Look, look. Always look.

[Amelia]

There's nothing in it.

[Rich]

Hey.

[Amelia]

But I think it might be broken.

[Rich]

Oh, you know what that makes it. And I noticed that when you it out, you weren't like, oh, I have really missed this packing cube. I really have like wondered where it was and wanted to use.

[Amelia]

Is not broken.

[Rich]

Okay, then it's a donate I have.

[Amelia]

Not missed is I don't use packing cubes this big. So I'm going to donate. Here is promotional post it notes I got from a construction company. Here is a box that a pair of earbuds came in. I use these when I put them when I Organize a drawer. I like to, like, do sub organization, and I reuse the nice boxes they give you. But this one's been in here four years, and I. I might use these because I am in the process of reor. I'm not gonna. I'm gonna throw these out.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

I'm gonna recycle them. Yeah.

[Rich]

You might not yet have come across Danny K. White's head explosion rule.

[Amelia]

Yeah, I have. Oh, I've come across all the things, believe me. This is a linen curtain. That is a set from the set of linen curtains that I use in the kitchen. And I had too many in the set, so this one winded up here.

[Rich]

Where would I look first for extra curtains?

[Amelia]

If I were looking for a linen.

[Rich]

Curtain that's extra, would it ever occur to me that. That I already had one?

[Amelia]

Yes, Because I also have two more that are in the front guest room also sitting on a chair. Extra. I should donate them. They're extra.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

Oh, there you go. I got a. Here's this sign I bought. In Russian, it says, which means, like, I don't know, like, supply room or. I got it to hang in the barn. As. Like a. As like a funny sign to be hanging in the barn. I should hang that.

[Rich]

That's called procrastic clutter.

[Amelia]

Yeah. Well, I didn't even know it was in this box for four years, so.

[Rich]

So you could donate it. You could put it in the trash, or you could hang it right now.

[Amelia]

The hammer is in the house.

[Rich]

Okay. You could just sit it on the beam next to the picture that's behind you or on any beam.

[Amelia]

I'll do that for now. And then when I bring a hammer out, I'll. I'll put it on the bathroom door, which I think is hilarious.

[Rich]

That is funny.

[Amelia]

Well, that's entertaining and decorative.

[Rich]

But over the course of the many, many weeks that it will take you to remember to bring a hammer and nails, it will still be improving.

[Amelia]

I have to assemble a daybed, so, like, I'll be bringing tools into the barn. I also have to hang curtains.

[Rich]

You got some projects in the barn?

[Amelia]

I have projects. Like. Yeah.

[Rich]

Yeah. So it sounds like you found. You found all the trash.

[Amelia]

Yeah, I think I found all the obvious trash.

[Rich]

And that was a luggage belt.

[Amelia]

This is. Yeah. Luggage belt that I've been looking for.

[Rich]

All right.

[Amelia]

Because I thought, oh, I have a thing that I can use to wrap around my wheelchair when I gate check it. So it doesn't come unfolded.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

Because if you just pull it, it comes unfolded. Yeah. So I Can use this. I've been looking for this to wrap around my wheelchair when I gate check it. So this is going to go in the house. So I'm putting it in my pocket to take in the house.

[Rich]

Great.

[Amelia]

Because if I take it there now, like that's in the garage which is a long way away and I'm too tired for that. But I'll at least, it'll at least make progress.

[Rich]

It's going to make it into the house. It will gradually traverse your home.

[Amelia]

Yeah, yeah. And again, my house is not. Is not in such a state that that would be like.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

Part of chaos. It's just like things have to get moved gradually. Cuz walking long distances is a no for me. This is an alarm clock. I think it works.

[Rich]

Plug it in. It works. It works. That's an easy donate. What good stuff. You're donating a fully functional packing cube. Fully functional digital alarm clock. Oh. Oh.

[Amelia]

This. This is a portable voice amplifier. It's a. It's a speaker with a microphone and you wear it around your neck so when you're talking in public like your.

[Rich]

Voice gets amplified if the place doesn't have amplification.

[Amelia]

Yeah. And the place doesn't have like a built in PA system or if you're walking around or if you're doing Tai chi outside for conducting rehearsal. Outside. Because it's Covid times. Yeah. This is a good thing that I want to have.

[Rich]

If you needed a voice amplifier, where would you look for it first?

[Amelia]

It should be here in the office.

[Rich]

You're going out the door. You need to take it with you. You're desperate. You're sure it's somewhere you're going to spend the next fuck hour looking for it. Where's the first place you're going to look?

[Amelia]

In the desk drawer up there up in the loft.

[Rich]

Okay. Is there anything else in the box that goes in the drawer up in the loft? Not even in the drawer. Anything else in the loft. Because only go up those stairs once. As much stuff as you can carry in your arms. What is that?

[Amelia]

This is a male USB to female HDMI adapter.

[Rich]

Does it work?

[Amelia]

It does.

[Rich]

Okay.

[Amelia]

I mean it did last time I used it. I would probably also look for this in the desk in the loft.

[Rich]

Okay.

[Amelia]

And I found some more pins that were stray and falling out of the box. So I'll put those in the box on my way by because the place I put stuff is halfway up the stairs. So I'll be back.

[Rich]

Okay. And we're going to. Time took me about 10 seconds just to get out of her chair. So that's the level of low energy and slowness that we're talking Less than a minute. That took less than a minute.

[Amelia]

Yeah. There's a lot of stairs, though. So recovery was going to be a thing. Okay, this is a picture frame. It's not broken, but it's not in great condition. I can donate it and maybe somebody wants to make it a craft project. This is a copy of this is your brain on music, which I used as a textbook in one of my music psychology courses that I taught. It's not obvious trash. It's not quite duh donation, but it's a maybe donation. This is a thing that Dana K. White talks about as past identity clutter.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

This is something to do with who I used to be. This is the thing I needed. I mean, many, many days of each semester, I needed a copy of this book with me.

[Rich]

Yeah. Identity clutter.

[Amelia]

Yeah. I don't need this book anymore. Well, I mean, I might use it. I might reference it if I'm doing, like, a video or talking about music psych stuff. This is a pretty old book, though. It's probably a little out of date. It's definitely. It's definitely a little out of date.

[Rich]

2006 is the pub date.

[Amelia]

6 is too long ago. That's a donate 20 years ago. All right, I'm gonna. I guess donate is what you do with old books.

[Rich]

Yep.

[Amelia]

Or recycle.

[Rich]

I donate.

[Amelia]

Can you recycle old books in Massachusetts?

[Rich]

I don't know. We have a. When rich goes to the dump, there's a place that takes books.

[Amelia]

Okay, I'm gonna put in my donate box. This is a jar with paint in it, and it still has plenty of paint in it of a specific color that I painted a piece of furniture. I still have that piece of furniture. I still like the color. And I have another piece of furniture that matches the one I painted that I might also want to paint.

[Rich]

Where would you look first for paint that matches a piece of furniture you painted?

[Amelia]

In the basement, where I keep all the other paint.

[Rich]

Okay.

[Amelia]

So I'm putting it in my pocket. Among the things that have to go in the house.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

Another goddamn pin. This is a bottle of Mood mist comb that smells old. Okay, I'm throwing it out.

[Rich]

Easy.

[Amelia]

Yeah. Right now I'm just going to put it in the trash, and when I empty the trash, I'll pour out the remaining liquid and then recycle the glass bottle. Oh, this is a piece of the Delaware Puzzle.

[Rich]

Hey, I wonder how many more of. Have you already gotten rid of the.

[Amelia]

No, I have. No, I have not.

[Rich]

That's a throwback to our original decluttering episode.

[Amelia]

This is a single wimpy compression hospital compression sock.

[Rich]

Okay, that's trash. These are.

[Amelia]

Braces or supports for shelves. Brackets, Brackets. These are brackets.

[Rich]

I have a real bracket problem. I have a bracket block.

[Amelia]

Oh, yeah, you have a lot of. It's full. Yeah, I have a box of brackets.

[Rich]

Brackets, and dish towels over there.

[Amelia]

I have a box of brackets. I'm gonna go put it in. The box of brackets is the.

[Rich]

Do you want to have a box of brackets in the place where it currently is?

[Amelia]

No, I don't want the box of brackets to live in that place.

[Rich]

But that's not today's project. So just put the brackets in there.

[Amelia]

If I add these brackets to those brackets will not have made things worse.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

Okay. Getting down to the very end here. Wow. This is a tealight candle holder. I have a tea night candle holder just like this in my room. Bedroom that is also just floating around.

[Rich]

Do you use tea light handle?

[Amelia]

I don't use tea lights. No, I don't use tea lights. I used to.

[Rich]

I do, but that one is a mess.

[Amelia]

Well, it's just got wax in it. I mean, I can put boiling water in it.

[Rich]

Yeah, yeah.

[Amelia]

Do you want it? I'll wash it out. It's fine.

[Rich]

Yeah, but I mean, you're sort of making a collection.

[Amelia]

Yeah, I do have a box of stuff to bring to you. Yeah, I always have an Emily box.

[Rich]

Yeah. In the same way that you've got like a donate box and trash, there.

[Amelia]

Can be waste container. I've got to stuff Emily's shit box.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

This is a microfiber towel that I tore off a larger microfiber towel, and it's a very small scrap and I'm throwing it out.

[Rich]

Great.

[Amelia]

This is a Doctor who themed wristlet that is adorable and I like it, but I ordered it from an Etsy maker and I sent the dimensions that I wanted, and they reversed the length and the depth.

[Rich]

So it is not the size you wanted.

[Amelia]

So it's not the right size. And I emailed and was like, oh, you reversed the length, the depth, and they went, oh, my God. Yeah, sorry, that's my fault. And they sent me one the right size.

[Rich]

And so you have this extra one.

[Amelia]

So I have this extra one that.

[Rich]

A Doctor who fan would be super stoked to find in a thrift shop.

[Amelia]

Yeah. It says fantastic on the. On the wrist Thing I. It feels so nice and it's so cute.

[Rich]

Okay. Where would you look for a Doctor who wristlet of that shape and size?

[Amelia]

With my other bags. Wristlets. I. There were some screws floating around in the bottom of the box, and I put those screws in a little bowl where I keep screws for when I use those brackets.

[Rich]

Okay.

[Amelia]

And I did not make a decision about the Doctor who pouch.

[Rich]

Okay. Yeah, sure. No need to make a decision. You don't have to if you don't want to.

[Amelia]

I think this is a case where I need to go take it where I keep my pouches and accept the reality of the pouch space.

[Rich]

Of the space. Does it deserve space in that space?

[Amelia]

It's so cute.

[Rich]

Yeah. So there might be. So maybe it fits. And maybe there's. If it doesn't fit, if that. If your pouch space is full, there's another pouch that is less space worthy.

[Amelia]

Yeah. If I think about having to wide. Like if I had to. If I was doing the real legit. Take it there now.

[Rich]

Take it there right now.

[Amelia]

Address the space, maybe pull something out to make space for it and bring that thing back to put in the donate box. I don't want to do that for this. And that tells me that this is a donate.

[Rich]

That's one of the most valuable things about the take it there right now rule.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

Is if you're like, it is not worth.

[Amelia]

But it's got a sonic screwdriver on it. And like the little. It's got the targets.

[Rich]

You know what, Set it aside. You don't have to. That doesn't have to be the thing you do. Let's do other easier stuff in the box.

[Amelia]

This is the end of the box.

[Rich]

Oh, this is the last thing.

[Amelia]

The box is empty.

[Rich]

The box is empty. Apart from this one thing.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

Do you have pocket space to take stuff back to your house?

[Amelia]

Sort of. But I mean, I have to take the donate box into the house.

[Rich]

Okay.

[Amelia]

So I put in the donate box.

[Rich]

So you can put that pouch in the donate box.

[Amelia]

I did.

[Rich]

And carry the donate box into the house.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

And if that pouch ever makes it to your pouch location.

[Amelia]

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[Rich]

And if it doesn't, that's. Then some Doctor who fan is going to be super stoked to find that bag.

[Amelia]

Yeah. Oh, my God, look at this Doctor who bag. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rich]

Fantastic. It's got a sonic screwdriver on it.

[Amelia]

Yeah, that.

[Rich]

That's the. Oh.

[Amelia]

I also did find two pencils and a pen that I tested that. It does Work. I did not find any further Delaware puzzle pieces.

[Rich]

Okay.

[Amelia]

Which I guess this means that this single lone piece is trash along with the puzzle that it goes. Yeah, but that's over there. And another project.

[Rich]

Yeah. So that's not what you're doing right now.

[Amelia]

What I'm doing right now.

[Rich]

You emptied that box. What are you going to do with the box?

[Amelia]

The box? I'm going to recycle. It's like stained. It's got a little grease spot on it. It's not nice anymore.

[Rich]

You did it.

[Amelia]

I empty the box. How long did that take?

[Rich]

I don't know because it restarted the timer. But I think it's been like half an hour.

[Amelia]

Yeah, it's been about half an hour. And I went slow. Low energy.

[Rich]

Absolutely.

[Amelia]

I wasn't like, let's get this done. I was like, let's get this done.

[Rich]

Yeah. And there were. Most of the things were 100% emotion free. Obvious trash, obvious donation. Obvious. Take it there right now.

[Amelia]

And I did anticipate that it would be like a lot of hard decisions. I mean, like seeing a box that's closed and I don't know what's in it, I assumed, oh, God, I'm gonna have to make a lot of decisions. No, the vast majority was decision free.

[Rich]

There were. There was a book that was Identity clutter.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

There was a pouch that was like, basically like an extra free thing. That it wasn't your fault. You had this thing that was not the thing you wanted.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

And that was it for the difficult stuff.

[Amelia]

And that was it. Yeah. There was. There was two things that took more than half a second to think about where they go. So. Yeah, it was easier than I anticipated.

[Rich]

Which I actually, next time we do this, we should get you to estimate how long you think it's going to take.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

And how emotional you believe it's going to be.

[Amelia]

Yeah. But. So this is, this is, this is after I've done the deep dive into the decluttering stuff that you suggested. And I like it. Yeah. It's. It's good because, I mean, I have a big enough space that I can keep a lot of stuff like.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

And it's out of the way. And the, the part of the house I live in is very tidy and, you know, such a normal house.

[Rich]

Manageable. Under control.

[Amelia]

Yeah. So, like, I hadn't bothered to go into the deeper layers.

[Rich]

Would you say you are over. Yeah. You have bandwidth to do this sort of deep dive stuff because overall your house is under control.

[Amelia]

Right. And also some of the Stuff I've been decluttering. I have been selling on ebay, asking around, like, my step kids. Hey, do you want this? Texting you, hey, do you want this? Texting our brother. Do you want this? Does your daughter want this? And, like, being careful about where things go, because I do. I am not in such a desperate state where I just, like, need to get stuff out. I'm not in a get stuff out place. I am in a pretty. Well, a lot of people are. Absolutely. But that's not me. So I can take time and, you know, I can do the sort of fiddly stuff to make sure that I get rid of a thing in a way that I want to get rid of a thing.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

So I am going slower than, like, somebody who just needs to. My house is overwhelming and out of control. I need to declutter, which is a lot of what Dana K. White talks about. And I'm sure the people who need her help the most. But even I, who have a house that's, you know, pretty. Pretty tidy, pretty organized, I have definitely benefited from going into this deeper layer of clutter.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

That's, like, just untouched and put away.

[Rich]

Yeah. One of the benefits of the method is that so many of the steps do not use emotion to make decisions.

[Amelia]

That is really nice. Like, I'm just gonna go look for trash. And in looking. And the looking for trash is. That's not all I'm doing. I'm looking at what's in there. Yeah. And also it's given me sort of more detailed perspective on what belongs in my house. I used planners, and I had several years of planners that when I was like, where would I look first if I was looking for old planners? And I was like, these are trash.

[Rich]

Yeah. I'm never gonna look for these.

[Amelia]

I'm never gonna look for these. Like, why am I keeping them? Because right when you get done with a planner, like, you know, December 31st, and you put it away, it feels like this accomplishment of this, like, look at all this work I did and how it benefited my life. And then two years later, it's like, this is trash. So. Yeah. Yeah.

[Rich]

Great.

[Amelia]

Yeah. So I threw those out.

[Rich]

And so that doombox was sitting there, and it was a sympathetic activator. Like, it was a source of, like, low level stress that not only activated your sympathetic nervous system, it also obstructed your access to the ventral stuff in your space.

[Amelia]

Definitely.

[Rich]

So getting rid of that box not only helps to eliminate the thing that was stressing you out, it also makes it Easier for the peaceful, connected, loving, joyful stuff to shine as brightly as it deserves to.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

Because there's a lot of stuff that, like, you made really intentional choices about.

[Amelia]

Yes. Oh, yeah. There's, like, sentimental stuff from our grandmother that I've been decluttering because I have a lot of sentimental stuff from our grandmother. You have less than I do. So, like, offering you some things, offering our niece some things, you know, like. Yeah.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

Because I have the bandwidth. I have a foundation of my life is pretty. Okay. It's pretty together. It's pretty under control, as Dana White puts it.

[Rich]

Yeah. One of the ideas that she talks about is a clutter threshold. Like getting decluttering to the point where your house feels like it's under control. Her threshold is like, can you in five minutes get a space together so that company could come over?

[Amelia]

Yeah. Now, I have to admit, we have cleaners who come once a month, and it does take time, too much time and too much energy to get the house ready to be cleaned. Like, to remove the surface layer of clutter in order to access the, like, surfaces that need to be scrubbed. So that's what I was like. You know what? There is a layer. I. I could go. I could go down.

[Rich]

You could go further.

[Amelia]

I could go further and maybe make those days easier.

[Rich]

Yeah. There's sort of two solutions. You can't. I mean, the easiest, the. The sort of, like, larger solution is to declutter down to the point where it doesn't. There's like that layer just doesn't get as thick.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

Or you could do sort of daily five minute pickups, which is one of the things Danny K. White talks about, so that it never gets so thick and things just get returned to where they go. Because it's not that stuff doesn't have a home in your home. It's that you're not the kind of person who puts stuff back. Okay. And we never have been, which is part of our having been disgusting children.

[Amelia]

So it turns out that I am a person who puts stuff back. But. But only if there is a magnificent system in place where that thing has a very specific home.

[Rich]

Right. Because you discovered you're a cricket.

[Amelia]

I'm a total fricking cricket. Like, casual.

[Rich]

It needs to be visible.

[Amelia]

Visible.

[Rich]

And it needs to be detailed microorganization.

[Amelia]

It needs to be detailed microorganization. I need to have.

[Rich]

And it is eventual for you to have, like, a beautiful, precisely defined home.

[Amelia]

Yes.

[Rich]

For each and every thing.

[Amelia]

Not just like, I keep my socks in this basket, but Like, I keep my warm, thick wool socks in this section, and I keep my knee socks, my compression socks in this section, and I keep my crew socks in this section, sorted by weight level. And then I keep my, you know, ankle socks in this section and then my no show socks in this section, sorted by color and weight, thickness. Like that's how I do. And my socks are always tidy because I have this system where I can do all those details. My underwear is always tidy because I have sections where I sort by color, by style, by level of formality. Do I have levels of formality for my underwear? Yes, I do.

[Rich]

Sure, of course.

[Amelia]

So I sort by those. And my underwear drawer is always tidy because I put things away when I have a very. And I realized this was true when I decided I was gonna put my tea stuff had been on a shelf out in the open. And I was like, that looks too busy and cluttery and I want to put my tea stuff in a drawer. So I moved our cloth napkins from a drawer into a basket on the counter and I put my tea stuff in that drawer. And I asked Malan, hey, husband, is it okay if we have these napkins in this basket instead? And he just didn't want us to keep the rattiest of the napkins out. And he's like, it's fine as long as it's the napkins that look nice. And I was like, fair enough. We'll throw away the napkins that are too ratty to keep out. Like, duh, of course we will. And he said, you know, it doesn't matter to me. I know that you like to have things organized to the nth degree. And I was like, do I? I do.

[Rich]

You do.

[Amelia]

Anyway, yeah. So even. Even he had observed that I do like to organize to the nth degree.

[Rich]

You like detail?

[Amelia]

Yeah. And my stepdaughter, who is adhd, was at the house last summer and was like, do you have, I don't know, sunburn relief stuff or something? And I was like, okay, yeah, it's in the bathroom cabinet on the right hand side in the box that says skin and wound on the bottom shelf with the things in tubes.

[Rich]

Jiminy Cricket.

[Amelia]

Yeah. And she was like, I love it being here. Like, you always know where everything is and everything's so tight. Everything's like in a place and like. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, cricket all the way.

[Rich]

That's probably really hard for her with adhd.

[Amelia]

Yeah. I mean, she enjoys participating in the cricket organization, but she couldn't maintain it herself.

[Rich]

Yeah, no, Me either.

[Amelia]

But she does appreciate that I know where things are.

[Rich]

So just to reiterate the sort of, like, clutterbug styles. This is Cass Arson's clutterbug sort of styles. It's a combination of, like, do you want your stuff to be out, invisible, or do you want it hidden? And do you organize with big macro categories, or do you organize with tiny little micro categories like Amelia's talking about? And I am a butterfly. I need stuff visual. I need to be able to see it, or I forget that it exists. And I am never going to take the time to organize things into the tiny little categories like Amelia's talking about. I put my socks in this basket.

[Amelia]

I will. I will only put things away if there's a micro category to put it in.

[Rich]

Yes. So the good thing about that is putting something away in the micro category where you satisfy. It's just like. Just like it takes the exact right. Like, it feels. So it's very rewarding. So, like, the motivation for bothering to create these systems is how good it feels to have exactly the right spot for exactly this specific individual item that you own. As opposed to me having a basket in a drawer where my socks go.

[Amelia]

Just all your socks all commingled.

[Rich]

My socks are sort of in two categories. There's the short socks and the heavy, warm socks are in another place. Because that's sort of like a seasonal division. And that's truly it. And one of our struggles may have been that we shared a room until we were 16.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

And we have different styles of organization.

[Amelia]

Yeah. And I wasn't going to participate in an organizing style, it turns out, until I had a system that I could implement and no one to interfere.

[Rich]

Yeah. And it seems like you can manage kind of a lot of stuff when and only when every single one of that large number of items has a specific home.

[Amelia]

It does mean that for things that I don't have a specific place for, they float. I think this has to go in a specific place. But that structure is not yet set up. The infrastructure for that split for that. So things just sit in piles for later. Which drives Meilyn crazy.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

My mail.

[Rich]

You know what the solution is?

[Amelia]

Just sits in piles. We have a place for Amelia's mail.

[Rich]

This is. This is a very common cricket situation. The cast talks about it all the time, is that you wait until you can do it perfectly.

[Amelia]

So we have a place for my mail, and it sits there and it stacks up. And Malin's like, are you ever going to open that mail? I'M like, if it bothers you, you open it.

[Rich]

And he's like, so what you need is a more micro organized, highly visual system.

[Amelia]

So I had an organizer thing that I had been using to keep my journaling stuff organized in my bedroom. But when I got rid of the journals and stuff, I, like, had extra room, so I didn't need that thing anymore. So I moved it to the hallway. So now I have a three section organizer for mail.

[Rich]

Great.

[Amelia]

So when the mail comes in, I'll. I can put it in three sections of, like, stuff I can ignore for a while and stuff I need to act on right now. And stuff in the middle.

[Rich]

Yeah, you're going to need to get more detailed about what those categories are.

[Amelia]

I mean, I don't get that much mail.

[Rich]

If it's stuff you can ignore, why don't you just get rid of it right away?

[Amelia]

I don't know. We're gonna have to see how the organization works out as I get mail. And I'll need to make decisions about what kind of mail is this?

[Rich]

Yeah. And it's very common in particular for people who need micro categories for there to be a sort of trial and error process of figuring out what system works.

[Amelia]

It's a process I very much enjoy learning. How do I sort these into many categories? But at least for now, Malan can put all. All of the mail in the big slot in the back. And it won't be a big pile anymore. It'll be in a slot standing up in a, you know, mail holding item. And now we'll be implementing the container concept where instead of just a pile that can stack infinitely, it'll be, oh.

[Rich]

Yeah, the piles can grill forever.

[Amelia]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. So now there'll be like a section, and when that section gets full, I'll be like, all right, I gotta actually address that.

[Rich]

Yes. That's a cue that you need to deal with it. That's excellent.

[Amelia]

So this is what I've learned in my. It's been.

[Rich]

Is it highly translucent? Like, is it like a wire?

[Amelia]

It's a wire, yeah.

[Rich]

So you can see.

[Amelia]

You can see it, yeah.

[Rich]

Do you have any pegboard situations in your life?

[Amelia]

Yeah, we have a magnetic whiteboard in the kitchen for, like, hanging, because we have a stainless steel refrigerator that you can't hang things on. It's not magnetic. So we have a whiteboard in the kitchen where we can like hang the list of things that Meilan can eat because he can't eat vitamin K because he's. Or at least he has to Be careful about his vitamin K because he's on blood thinners. So, like, stuff like that that needs to be, like, posted in the kitchen gets posted there. Like, when we have Thanksgiving, I post a schedule on. Because I am autistic, and it makes me like, yeah, the kids have learned that this is a thing that I do, and it actually does help. It's not just me imposing strict whatever onto Thanksgiving, but I post a schedule. Like, we're gonna eat at 4. So, like, at 3:30, Sarah makes the cranberry sauce. At 2:30, Robert starts the mashed potatoes. Like, so they know that. Here's the schedule for the day. This is when things happen. I write it on the whiteboard.

[Rich]

Yeah. Like fucking professional kitchens do.

[Amelia]

Yeah, yeah. And. And people who are obsessive about planning.

[Rich]

Yeah, yeah.

[Amelia]

Like, they. They now come, and they look like, what's the schedule? When do I have to come cook? Like, it's. It's very sweet. They are. Especially since I've been diagnosed with autism, they've been very sweet about accommodating my crazy.

[Rich]

But it's not your crazy. It's just your detail orientation.

[Amelia]

No, it's my. It's my difference. It's my. This makes me more comfortable.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

Yeah. They've been very, very cool about it.

[Rich]

And the end result is that, like, you have dinner at a time and everything's ready. Yeah, yeah.

[Amelia]

And it's not five people in the kitchen all at once trying to, like, get their thing done. Because we have a good big kitchen with lots of counter space, but we don't have time for. There's no space for really more than one person to do something at a time. Even two people starts to get annoying. So it makes the process. Not only is the result good, but the process is better, easier. We've had other kitchens where you could have two, three people working in there at the same time. This kitchen does not work like that.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

Anyway, so I learned a lot from the decluttering thing, and my house is changing because of it.

[Rich]

Their house is getting more and more ultra organized.

[Amelia]

It's getting. It has less stuff in it, and I didn't feel like it needed less stuff, but it turns out having less stuff feels nice.

[Rich]

Yeah. When I first started this way back in 2018, after about a year, I had gotten rid of so much stuff that we had experientially much more space. And it was weird. Like, I had to adjust to the experience of having empty spaces in the house.

[Amelia]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Rich]

And I had this, like, inclination to, like, fill it to put things in the places that are empty now. And I had to like, experience the empty spots and be like, do I really want to put something there or do I want to like, what is this feeling I have about this empty spot?

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

And like, it turns out I like having empty space.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

Not a lot. Like, I am still a butterfly. I like visual abundance. I enjoy things.

[Amelia]

Yeah. Yeah. I am by no means a minimalist. And also I live in a very old house that calls for a certain kind of decoration, coziness. Like I have a 300-year-old fireplace with paneling around it and like beams in the ceiling from like a. It's, you know, barely 8ft tall. Old, old house with 19 and 22 inch wide floorboards. Like, very old house. And you can't. Like that kind of house cannot be decorated mid modern. You know, like, it can't be decorated maximalist. Like it would look weird. So I kind of have restraints imposed by the building, the architecture. So it's not like I have choices. I don't. I mean, I feel like my choices are limited as to like how I can.

[Rich]

Yeah. But yeah, that's a. It's a limitation to the kind of space you like. You bought a colonial era home on purpose?

[Amelia]

Uh, yeah. We bought it because. Because I don't care where we live. And mainly loved it. So I was like, great.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

Like, I don't care where our house is because my home is wherever I live with him. Right. Like we could have lived in a mid century pause for everybody to go, oh, my home is wherever I am with him. Oh, yeah. Which is completely true. I don't care what building we live in. But he likes old houses and so. And I let the architecture of the space dictate what's supposed to be in there mostly. And there's definitely a lot of procrastic clutter. A lot of like a computer from our last house that, you know, we got a new computer when we moved here. And I'm supposed to. I was supposed to move all the old files from that computer onto a hard drive, an external hard drive, and put them on the new computer. That was four years ago. I have not done it yet.

[Rich]

Yep. That's procrast. Declutter.

[Amelia]

Yeah. Yeah. So like that's, you know, that's things that were. Yeah.

[Rich]

And now, you know that. That's decluttering.

[Amelia]

That's decluttering.

[Rich]

Which is. That's. That for me, that feels motivating. That's not just a project. It's when I Do that project, then.

[Amelia]

I can guarantee when I do this, I can recycle. I can put this old, you know, PC tower in E waste when I do that. And that is motivating. But also, like, I have a big glass drinks dispenser from when I used to make kombucha. And then I learned that kombucha is high histamine and I have histamine sensitivity and I can't be drinking kombucha because it makes me itchy and bloated because of the histamines. So I have this big glass drinks dispenser, like two and a half gallon. And I have room for it. It's been sitting in my cabinet for three years. I have room for it, but I should just get rid of it. I should just donate it.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

Somebody else is going to make kombucha in it and they're going to enjoy it because most people can drink kombucha and it's delicious and nutritious. So. Yeah. Coffee maker. Big Tall 10 Pot Coffee Maker we haven't used in a year and a half because we make single cup coffee.

[Rich]

Yep.

[Amelia]

I have room for it. It's in that cabinet, but I don't need it. And then now the cabinet is. There's so much room. And you can see everything that's in there.

[Rich]

Yeah, you might enjoy. So three decluttering experts collaborate on a thing called the Take youe Haspack course. It's. Dawn is the third of them. Yes. Cass and Dana and Dawn, the minimalist mom. You might be interested in her stuff because she really, like, gets down to, like, just because you have the space doesn't mean you should keep it. Her question is, can I do without it? And she's the one who advocates for, like, time will tell bins. Like, move it out of the space and see what it's like to live without it.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

Which is how you experience how good it feels to live without that stuff in your space and just like trimming it down to the, like. It takes extra organization of your habits to live with minimal stuff. But sometimes, especially when life is extra difficult, having minimal stuff makes it easier.

[Amelia]

Yeah, that's what I'm realizing. So I've done. I've listened to a lot of Clutterbug. She's hilarious and fun.

[Rich]

She's very funny.

[Amelia]

And I've listened to a lot of Dana K. White. I haven't gotten so far as minimal mom yet, though. I know that she's like, next on the list.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

But I think you're right. That that's the direction I need to go next. Cause I. A, my house is under control. B, I have plenty of space, but C, I. So I think I'm below my clutter threshold. I think I don't have so much stuff that I can't manage it, but I do think it could be better. So I think, yeah, that's probably the next step for me. So I learned. I learned a lot. It was good.

[Rich]

Let me correct. So in the. In the. In the decluttering episode, I referred to the invisible to do list. It's actually the silent to do list. I said it wrong every single time.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

So if you're searching. Searching the Internet, you search for silent to do list, which is the sort of, like, communication that your items are sending to you about. Like, you should be using me.

[Amelia]

Yeah. You should be using me 100%.

[Rich]

Yeah. Whereas if you just get rid of that stuff, you won't never think about it again. And all of them talk about, like, you know, I watch my old videos and I see that stuff and I didn't even remember I had any of that stuff.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

Much less ever missed it.

[Amelia]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the idea that when you get rid of something that you paid for, it's not waste because you earn back what you get in return is the freedom of the empty space. You know that thing has been paying rent in your house.

[Rich]

Yes. Dawn talks about that a lot.

[Amelia]

Yeah. It's living in your house for free.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

Like, get your space back.

[Rich]

And I feel like it's important to be explosive that the, like, decluttering home organization space, especially on social media, is very full of white straight women. Especially white, straight Christian women.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

And there are cultural reasons for that. So I just want to, like, name that. That's.

[Amelia]

Oh, yeah.

[Rich]

Something we're participating in.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

Is. Is consuming this content, which. One of the reasons why I recommend the Organized Soprano is that she's one of the few black organizing experts on social media.

[Amelia]

Yeah. She. I really enjoy her videos also. She's a classic trained musician, so I enjoy that aspect of her. And she's a gamer, so I also enjoy that aspect of her work.

[Rich]

You would so be friends.

[Amelia]

She's. I would so be friends with games. I think so, too. Yeah. I'm like, we're so on the same wavelength. But she does have a lot of stuff. And she talks a lot about organizing stuff and just decluttering, like when things are broken or when they really.

[Rich]

A naturally organized person.

[Amelia]

Yeah, she's just naturally organized. And she doesn't need complicated systems to stay organized. She doesn't have this perfectionist thing that I like. The progress and only progress start with the trash and the easy stuff. Like, that kind of, like, permission just to make progress and not to have it be perfect right now. That was really valuable for me as this crickety perfectionist.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

I enjoy organized Sopranos content, but her advice doesn't really apply to me except.

[Rich]

Like, the most important thing that I have learned from Kay Patterson, the organized Soprano, is refrigeration. That there are zones in your fridge that are likely to be different temperatures and different levels of humidity. And you should store stuff in your fridge not based on how it looks, but based on the functionality of a refrigerator.

[Amelia]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rich]

I have multiple fridge thermometers so that I can keep track of, like, what the temperatures are at the back of the shelf versus the front of the shelf. That kind of thing.

[Amelia]

Yeah, that's good. I also like from her the, like, how you can reuse an organization solution. Like, when it doesn't serve you one way you can reuse it in this way. So, like, don't go buy a new thing. Like, use what you have. And, like, she's very creative about how, like, a thing can go from being a pantry to an office to a living room to a kitchen. Like, it's the same thing, but it can serve all these different. That's. That's really. I like that about her stuff.

[Rich]

Yeah. She worked at the Container Store for a long time and is an expert in the closet organizing systems and has moved multiple times over the many years that I have followed her.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

And I have seen how she has changed her systems, her closet systems. Like, it's the same system, but it's a new closet. And, like, what's the new way that she organizes it? It's super fun to watch.

[Amelia]

Yeah. She and Dana K. White share in common that they only have one set of sheets. Because you know what's easy to organize? Zero sheets. Just the sheets on your bed.

[Rich]

They're either on your bed or in.

[Amelia]

The wash. Like, and I would like. I would like that. But I get. I've had sheets and I buy sheets, and I feel like I need to keep them forever until they wear out. And, like, I could just donate the sheets. I don't like as much. I could just donate them and. Oh, it's a waste of money.

[Rich]

Oh.

[Amelia]

But what do I get in return is I don't have to manage not.

[Rich]

Having to maintain those sheets.

[Amelia]

Yeah. Like, I actually have had Two sets of sheets in a hamper in my laundry room for months because we switched to winter sheets and I just never washed the summer sheets. So I don't need those sheets.

[Rich]

I think it is worthwhile having. I mean, we live in New England. I think it's worthwhile. We have winter sheets, winter sheets, and summer sheets, and summer sheets.

[Amelia]

But I don't need. I mean, I only have five sets of sheets. Like, it's not like I have, like, crazy amounts of sheets, but I think five is more than I need. And I think my life would be easier and better if I had less.

[Rich]

Two, maybe three, but.

[Amelia]

Two, maybe three. Yeah. But there's. So there's definitely two sets of sheets I can get rid of. And I know exactly which ones.

[Rich]

This is slightly unrelated, but we transitioned to the Scandinavian blanket situation. We have king bed, and we each have a twin duvet on our sides. And it is so much better than trying to share king sized blankets because the dogs sleep in the bed. And so if the dogs are in the middle, then they're like pinning the sheets to the bed and you get what you get. Like whatever. They leave this tiny strip of fabric dangling over the edge. Like we struggled with. For 14 years. We struggled.

[Amelia]

You know what I would do to solve that problem is kick the dogs off the bed. But that's me.

[Rich]

But the dogs get on the bed. Well, like, originally when I got a dog of my own, I was like, the dog's gonna sleep on the couch or in his crate. And that's how it would start. And I would wake up and the dog would be in the bed, because, let's face it, the bed is the best place to sleep. That is why we sleep.

[Amelia]

It is 100% the best place.

[Rich]

100%. The dogs sleep on the bed. Even we're not. When we are not there with them.

[Amelia]

Yes, they do.

[Rich]

That is so wonderful.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

So. But now I have all this king size bedding, these blankets and quilts and duvets, and I am really struggling to let them go because they're beautiful and I picked them. And also they're perfectly functional. And who knows?

[Amelia]

So it's a thing.

[Rich]

Changing systems leaves you with a whole bunch of stuff from the previous system and, like, truly letting go of the stuff because you're fully investing in the new system.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

There's feelings that's.

[Amelia]

Yeah. Yeah. Before you get rid of king size blankets, talk to me, because I love a king size blanket on my queen size bed.

[Rich]

Oh, that's. But you don't need more stuff.

[Amelia]

No. But I have a shitty king size blanket now, so you could trade up. So if you have a nicer king size blanket.

[Rich]

Our stuff is all so nice. It's so good.

[Amelia]

Yeah. I know.

[Rich]

So many different kinds of good betting.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

Because I thought getting really good stuff was the solution to the problem of like not being able to stay warm in our bed because there was no blanket available. It turns out it was twin size bed stuff. Except for the fitted sheet.

[Amelia]

Yeah. Just in the winter we have one duvet and two duvet covers so that we can put one on while one is in the laundry. But in the winter, that is not enough. In the winter, we need a blanket on top of the duvet to hold the heat in. And life hack for people who didn't know, don't put the blanket under the duvet. Put the blanket over the duvet.

[Rich]

Because you want the weight.

[Amelia]

Yeah. To keep the weight, to keep the warmth in. That's. It makes a huge difference. So we have a very crappy blanket that we bought on super sale at Target when we moved and our stuff was in storage and we needed a blanket because we literally had nothing. So we bought this cheap blanket and we're still using it and it's fine. But the thing I like about it is that it's king sized.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

So it just covers everything and you never have to worry about, like it not covering every inch.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

So, like, if you.

[Rich]

Anyway, anyway, when you bring your box of my stuff, you can come shop in our king size bed. Okay. There's so much of it and it's so good.

[Amelia]

Okay. So that's some decluttering follow up change in Amelia's house.

[Rich]

Yeah. It's getting better.

[Amelia]

Definitely is.

[Rich]

And is it increasing your access to sort of eventual state?

[Amelia]

There's part of me that is still like, it's an ongoing project and I cannot rest until it's done because that's. That's the autism.

[Rich]

That's the problem with the decluttering momentum. Yeah. Is you feel like you have to keep going and keep going and keep going and you can't rest and like your brain is thinking about it as you go to bed of, like, all the things you could continue to declutter. And there are people who like, get out of bed and get up and declutter stuff because they can't turn it off.

[Amelia]

Yeah. But I do remind myself that, like, I've made it better. Everything I've done has made it better. I have not made any new messes. I have not made anything Worse.

[Rich]

That's awesome.

[Amelia]

That. That. Which is so. It's great. Like, Meilyn has barely noticed because I'm not putting piles of things places. So it's. It's good. It's good.

[Rich]

When you're doing stuff like this, it takes a long time for people who live in your home to notice.

[Amelia]

Yeah. I don't need him to notice. But, like, I just. I'm just saying, like, ordinarily, if I do, like, a big decluttering project, he's gonna notice because I'm gonna, like, throw everything in the hallway or, you know.

[Rich]

Right. Yeah. You're gonna make a bigger mess, and he's gonna notice the mess.

[Amelia]

Right.

[Rich]

But you're not doing that.

[Amelia]

Yeah. It's good.

[Rich]

You're not making messes. You're just making life easier for both of you.

[Amelia]

Yeah. A little bit at a time.

[Rich]

Congratulations. I'm so glad it helped you. Yay. I contributed something.

[Amelia]

You fully contributed. Yes.

[Rich]

I feel about this the same way that I feel. So Rich just started reading for the first time ever in his life, Pride and Prejudice.

[Amelia]

Oh.

[Rich]

And he's like, it's so funny.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

And it just, like, moves. It's so, like. It's like a freight train. It moves so fast. And I'm like, what is it like to discover as a full adult the most popular novel in the English language?

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

Like, that must be amazing.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

Because I first read Pride and Prejudice, you know, when I was 12 or whatever.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

And then I read it over and over again, and, like, so, like, I can't even access what that must feel like. But I do still remember what it felt like to be like, oh, don't pull everything out.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

Yeah. It was this revelation of, like, yes.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

Yes. It feels so terrible to have that pile of stuff. And the last stuff is the hardest stuff when you're already exhausted and don't want to do it anymore.

[Amelia]

Yeah. Or like, I'm decluttering a drawer and I'm like, oh, I don't know what to do with the. Oh, I'll just skip it.

[Rich]

Just skip it.

[Amelia]

Just skip it. I'll look for trash, easy stuff and donations, and skip the thing that I don't know.

[Rich]

Yeah. And getting rid of that other stuff.

[Amelia]

Makes it easier to see and deal with the stuff.

[Rich]

You don't know what to do. Yeah. Yeah.

[Amelia]

Yeah. It reduces the complexity of the decision.

[Rich]

Making perspective on that stuff.

[Amelia]

Also, it's a seriously. Dana K. White. Crack this code.

[Rich]

Crack the code.

[Amelia]

Yeah. So, yeah.

[Rich]

It's been helpful, and it's even More important for people who are neurodivergent or disabled.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

Or chronically ill. Yeah.

[Amelia]

The fact that I cannot do much in a day, it feels so forgiving.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

And her thing was partly, probably neurodivergence and also having three, three very small children at the time that she was developing the system.

[Amelia]

Right.

[Rich]

There's a lot of moms who are just like swimming in kid stuff.

[Amelia]

100%.

[Rich]

And it's so emotional.

[Amelia]

Right.

[Rich]

Kids stuff.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

Getting rid of stuff you remember your child loving.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

What if you have grandkids? You want to give your grandkid the toy that their. That their parent loved.

[Amelia]

Yeah. I have stuff that's like sentimental and from grandparents. And I'm realizing that, like just keeping that stuff in a box in the basement is. That stuff is paying rent in my house. Like, you know, like.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

Of being a target for mold or dust and.

[Rich]

Right.

[Amelia]

Like, instead I could give it to another family member who's gonna use it or wear it or enjoy it or has space for it, you know?

[Rich]

Yeah. Or like you use it or display it or.

[Amelia]

I do use and display the stuff I can or have interest in using and displaying and the rest of the stuff I just have.

[Rich]

Oh, what if you didn't have to have that stuff?

[Amelia]

So, like, the stuff I've texted to you is like, these are extra, like the peanuts signs. I had one up, but like, putting another one up was just like another extra thing and like too much stuff on the wall, so I only had one up.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

And the other one was just like sitting on my dresser, so. But you're like, oh, yeah, I want one of those, so.

[Rich]

Yeah, I definitely do.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

I would take both if you wanted to give me both.

[Amelia]

No, I want one. I like the snooker one.

[Rich]

Oh, that's great.

[Amelia]

Yeah. You chose the one that I didn't want, so that's great.

[Rich]

Yeah, that's perfect. We have one of the gifts we got for our wedding is Charlie Bown and Snoopy hugging in that same pose.

[Amelia]

Cookie jar.

[Rich]

And Charlie Brown's head is the lid of the cookie chip.

[Amelia]

That's pretty great. That's pretty great. Yeah.

[Rich]

So that goes with our aesthetic.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

Good.

[Amelia]

See, I should have done this earlier and then you would have had the matching thing.

[Rich]

Yeah. But that's, you know, it's fine. It's gonna spark joy for me whenever you come bring stuff. And in exchange, you can get some really amazing king size bedding.

[Amelia]

Nice.

[Rich]

Just like first class, fair trade, organic, high quality. It's just really good stuff.

[Amelia]

Nice.

[Rich]

My bedding is so good.

[Amelia]

Cool.

[Rich]

Thanks. This is much too long an episode considering what it was. But I hope it like people. People liked the decluttering episode.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Rich]

Um, and hopefully this is more motivation. One of the cool things about consuming decluttering content is that it's great for body doubling.

[Amelia]

Yeah. You can declutter while you. I hope. I hope some people want to listen to this and they can declutter while I empty my box.

[Rich]

It's very motivating for me. I always listen to decluttering content while I am decluttering myself.

[Amelia]

Yeah, that's. That's good stuff, though.

[Rich]

There are times I have to say, there are times when I really need silence while I declutter or organize so that I can feel my body telling me how I feel about stuff. Like when I undecorated our three Christmas trees this year. I needed Christmas real frickin bad this year because of obvious reasons and I didn't like. Usually I listened to Christmas music while I did that, but this time I let it be silent so that I could listen to each item, each ornament as I took it down to see how I felt about it and whether we wanted to keep it or not. And it was fucking joyful.

[Amelia]

That's nice.

[Rich]

Because I feel so. Like we've. We've been married for long enough that the things that were my ornaments and his ornaments have very much blended into, like, these are our ornaments. But there are ones that are very much like, the first year we were together. I got jingle bell snowmen. So it's two, like, one small jingle bell and then a larger jingle bell underneath. And one has his name on it and one has my name on it. And I always hang them on the same branch next to each other. So as I was taking down one of the trees, I moved those onto the other tree that I was not yet taking down.

[Amelia]

Oh, yeah.

[Rich]

And that's because I was listening to my body tell me what was important, what do I want to make sure stays in my line of sight.

[Amelia]

How do I feel about my stuff?

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

Cool. I've been trying to end this episode for like 20 minutes, so.

[Rich]

Okay, okay, okay. Let's be done. Let's be done with this episode. And thank you all for listening. I hope it was helpful. And we'll talk to you probably in a week.

[Amelia]

These are trash.

[Rich]

Yeah, I'm never gonna look.

[Amelia]

I'm never gonna look for these. Like, why am I keeping them? Because right when you get done with a planner, like, you know, December 31st, and you put it away. It feels like this accomplishment of this. Like, look at all this work I did and how it benefited my life. And then two years later, it's like, this is trash.