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- [00:12]
A
Okay, so this is an episode of the Feminist Survival Project. Is that what this is?
- [00:17]
B
Yeah, I think it's the feminist survival project 2025.
- [00:24]
A
Okay.
- [00:25]
B
Which makes me a little nauseous when I say it out loud like that.
- [00:28]
A
Yeah.
- [00:28]
B
So maybe it's not that.
- [00:30]
A
Maybe it's the Feminist Survival Project Continued.
- [00:33]
B
Yeah.
- [00:34]
A
Okay, well, so that's. This is an episode of the Feminist Survival Project, which we're kind of restarting, reinstating, reviving, due to the need for it. Is that accurate?
- [00:48]
B
Feminist Survival Project. The zombie apocalypse is upon us.
- [00:53]
A
Yeah. I mean, that's less accurate and more fun than fascist Hellscape is upon us.
- [00:59]
B
Yeah. But if this is a zombie podcast, because it's back from the.
- [01:03]
A
Yes, it's revived.
- [01:06]
B
So it's thematically linked.
- [01:08]
A
It wants to eat your brains. I think that's good.
- [01:12]
B
Okay.
- [01:14]
A
Okay, so this is an episode of the Feminist Survival Project, Zombie Apocalypse Edition. Great. Okay. And the reason we're doing it is because I had a thing in particular I wanted to say as advice for how to survive, which is the same advice I give my choirs, how to survive is there are two rules. Rule number one is always sing your best. Rule number two is do as you are told. Have you heard these rules from me before?
- [01:41]
B
No.
- [01:42]
A
Oh.
- [01:43]
B
I mean, maybe.
- [01:45]
A
Okay. Rule number one is always sing your best. Right? Which means always sing your best. And rule number two is do as you are told. And rule number two is not as important as rule number one. Rule number one always takes precedence over rule number two. And what this means in particular is if I tell the altos to altos, I need you to sing louder. This is. This is marked fortissimo. And you're giving me like a. Like a. Like a lukewarm mezzo forte. I need some fortissimo out of you. But you're an alto, and you're already singing as loudly as you beautifully can. As loudly as you healthfully can. That means I'm not talking to you. That means that there are others, other altos around you who are not singing as loudly as they beautifully and healthfully can. And I'm talking to them. So rule number one means if I say something and you cannot, and you know from your own caring for your own voice that that's not an option for you or that you're already doing as much as you can. Don't do the thing that I'm telling you to do. I'm talking to the people around you who have the capacity to do more. Does this make sense? And do you understand it as a metaphor for right now.
- [02:55]
B
Yes.
- [02:57]
A
Okay. So when people are like, now's not the time to lay down and die, now's the time to fight even harder. Like, rule number one is always sing your best. And if you are already fighting as hard as you can, or if you're tired and you need a break, you should do that. That's rule number one is do the thing you gotta do.
- [03:17]
B
We should note for the record that I said, hey, we should start podcasting again maybe in January. And you were like, I think we should start sooner. And I was like, how soon? And you were like, last week soon. Yeah. And I was like, yeah. And you said that what you wanted to say was like, permission to rest. Permission to rest. Permission not to fight, and you don't have to fight. And I was like, can the first episode be me opting out because I don't feel ready?
- [03:48]
A
Yeah. Do you want to put the puppet in your chair or something?
- [03:53]
B
I want to contribute the thing that I have to contribute. This isn't in any way mine. There's a website, findingsteadyground.com which is resource that asks explicitly, please share this as widely as possible, obviously with credit findingsteadyground.com strengthening our spirits to resist and thrive in these times to be in shape for the long haul, we have to get our minds and spirits ready as well as jump into action. When we're in bad shape, our power is diminished. We're less creative, more reactive, and less able to plan strategically. If we intend to stay active and effective in the world, we have a responsibility to tend to our spirits. Here are seven behaviors we can use right away to strengthen ourselves so we can keep taking more and more powerful and strategic actions every day. 1. I will make a conscious decision about when and where I'll get news and what I'll do afterward. What you choose to pay attention where an if I'll get news when and where and if what you choose to pay attention to during the day has an impact on you. Which news sources help you understand the world more fully and which ones only leave you fearful and despairing after getting your news? What works for you? Moving your body, talking to your friends, hopping on social media? Make it conscious and if it doesn't work, don't keep doing it. Many news quote news sources are designed to trigger fears, sell products, create an addiction to that source, or reinforce pre existing beliefs. Our goal is to understand what is happening in our world fully enough to be able to engage with it. Much of the information we need comes not from the news, but from the world around us. I. E. Observable natural and human capacities. So it is critical that we pay attention to those as well. That is number one, I also want.
- [05:52]
A
To say that throughout human history, it is only very, very recent that any normal regular old people have known anything about world events. It's really unusual for humans to think of themselves as global citizens and needing to know what's going on 3,000 miles away. You really don't need to.
- [06:18]
B
And in the tradition of the strategies that deal with the stress in your body are not the same as the strategies that deal with the things that activate the stress in your body.
- [06:28]
A
Yeah.
- [06:29]
B
They're two different things. If it helps for people to feel permission. I myself have opted out of news entirely for the time being. Me too. 100%. Me too. That's a choice I am making for myself because it only weakens me which makes me less able to contribute the things that I would otherwise be able to contribute.
- [06:47]
A
100%. And you. Yeah. And we really don't need to be as immersed in news as many of us are.
- [06:55]
B
No.
- [06:55]
A
People feel like they don't have a choice because they need to be engaged. And like you don't. You don't.
- [07:02]
B
Yeah.
- [07:03]
A
Only when you're ready. Only when it helps you.
- [07:05]
B
Yes. One of the things I struggle most with in moments like this is a problem. I have called not my circus, not.
- [07:12]
A
My monkey, not my pig, not my farm.
- [07:13]
B
So for example, our electoral system needs to be protected precinct by precinct all over the country immediately.
- [07:23]
A
Yeah.
- [07:24]
B
I have to believe that somebody who's an expert at that, that somebodies who are experts in that all over the country are making that happen. Because that is outside my wheelhouse. That is not my circus. That is not my monkey. I have a lane. I have a job to do and that is not it. And I have to believe that there are other people out there doing their jobs.
- [07:46]
A
Yeah.
- [07:47]
B
So I don't need to watch the news for whether or not somebody is doing that.
- [07:52]
A
Right.
- [07:53]
B
Because it's not what I should be doing anyway. So number two on this seven item list from findingsteadyground.com I will make human to human connection with another person and make sure we stay in motion. The goal is accountability so that we don't freeze up in the face of overload or despair. Check in to share and reflect on how you are staying in motion. Like writing letters, volunteering, creating resistance art, working on virtual campaigns. As we face increasing social isolation, we may have to work harder for this contact and it is more important than ever. If we can't physically be in touch with people in informal spaces such as cafes, dinner tables, or the gym, then we need to get creative. Virtual dinner tables, phone calls, video chats, distance walking, or even writing. Whatever we do, we must resist social isolation. A natural response is to fight, flee, or freeze. In the right context, these instincts can lead to survival. Recognizing when you are frozen is important because the longer you stay stuck, the harder it is to move, take care of yourself, and be an agent of change. Of course, the goal isn't just a fight or flight survival response, but linking that to our higher brain functions and bigger strategic actions, the support of others helps us to do that.
- [09:17]
A
I think the thing that this is missing is the language of polyvagal theory, which is they're talking about fight, flight, freeze, and flop. The other. Yeah, and the other fawn. Polyvagal state sympathetic, which is fight or flight. Freeze, which is dorsal, and connection, which is ventral polyvagal state. So they're encouraging us to stay in the ventral polyvagal state.
- [09:39]
B
I think we should do a whole episode on polyvagal stuff and come back to it.
- [09:43]
A
But I also think that a goal that we should have as we, you know, revive and reawaken the zombie feminist survival project is to include more of the language and vocabulary of polyvagal theory because we found it helpful.
- [09:58]
B
Yeah.
- [09:58]
A
Polyvagal state.
- [09:59]
B
Do you want to be a co author of my tiny book?
- [10:03]
A
Maybe.
- [10:04]
B
Yeah, maybe.
- [10:05]
A
Yes. I mean, I do want to do a thing, so maybe. But, like, really maybe. But the point is, there's nothing inherently dangerous about freeze or fight or flight. And so I don't like the idea that it's telling us to avoid freeze at all costs by staying in ventral because, like, sometimes I need to take two baths in one day, you know?
- [10:26]
B
Yeah.
- [10:27]
A
I need to sit in the bathtub for an hour and a half and listen to a podcast or an audiobook. So, like, if that's. What if that's the protective state that your body goes to, it's a protective state for a reason. So, like, you definitely need to balance the protective states.
- [10:41]
B
Yeah.
- [10:42]
A
So, like, I like the idea, like, reach out for connection, because that's a thing that's more difficult to do. But I don't want to be like, oh, let's vilify freeze. Let's vilify dorsal.
- [10:51]
B
I was on a podcast yesterday. We were supposed to be talking about something else completely, but we ended up talking about this because, of course, that's what we talked about, because of course you did. Yeah. And. And I was like, yeah, you're gonna know. And they were talking about being, like, all over the place. Like, they would go from, like, lying down sobbing to raging to, like, baking a cake. And I was like, yeah, that's a really good sign that shows flexibility and movement in your neurology and that, like, you want to stay flexible and moving through all of the states. All of the states are good and appropriate, and it is only when you get stuck that you begin to be at risk for anything. So allow the movement.
- [11:33]
A
Yeah. But don't force the movement.
- [11:36]
B
Yeah, forcing the movement is probably going to be counterproductive because it brings in a. Anyway.
- [11:42]
A
Yeah.
- [11:42]
B
Number three. From finding steady ground, I will pray, meditate, or reflect on those I know who are being impacted by oppressive policies and extend that love to all who may be suffering. Learn to cultivate love. One starting point may be holding compassionate space for your own pain or the pain of those close to you who are being impacted by the policies and politics of the time. In that reflective space, you can give yourself space to be. Feel loss, grief, anger, frustration, helplessness, and conviction. Then hold your love and extended beyond to others you may not know who are also suffering. And lastly, take time to notice that this is not all of your reality. You may also have joys with your folk around you, be surrounded by beautiful music or nature and take delight in creation. Joy in the face of hard times is not a luxury. It is a necessity. We have to learn to hold the emotions of these times and continually grow our hearts to be in touch with the suffering of others, both within and beyond our own circles. Without extending our love to others, we are in no spiritual position to defend and struggle with them.
- [12:57]
A
That piece of advice feels like a mess because it's like, feel empathy and extend your love and care and. And, you know, bear in mind the suffering of yourself and others, but also notice the pleasure of nature. And. And it's like.
- [13:12]
B
Yeah, that's a. That's. That. That was more than one thing in the. In the one thing. No, it. Actually, it was like number three.
- [13:19]
A
But, yeah, that was a mess.
- [13:20]
B
There was a whole bunch of stuff in there.
- [13:22]
A
Yeah.
- [13:23]
B
I think the short version is practice mital loving kindness.
- [13:27]
A
Yeah.
- [13:28]
B
Toward yourself, towards your loved ones, toward your neighbors, towards strangers, toward the people who wish you ill. In that order.
- [13:36]
A
Yeah. Practice loving kindness, but, like, bearing in mind the suffering of others. Like, if the suffering feels overwhelming to you, you don't have to. You don't have to.
- [13:45]
B
Yeah.
- [13:46]
A
Think on it and pray on it every day. Like, if other people's suffering overwhelms you, yes. Take a break. You're allowed not to have to feel bad for other people all the time. You're allowed just to eat half a pint of ice cream.
- [13:59]
B
One of the resources that has been very, very helpful for me is Fall Asleep podcast called Nothing Much Happens, and it's written and read by a Michigander lesbian, former yoga teacher.
- [14:17]
A
Nice.
- [14:18]
B
So she also has a morning podcast called first this, which is a mindfulness practice. And just last night, I listened to an episode called Softly Softly, which is about, if you find yourself in a place of rigidity, feeling like you need to cling to the rules, about how you're supposed to do something in a way that begins to be punishing rather than rewarding or nourishing, which is what the practice was supposed to be in the first place.
- [14:51]
A
Yeah.
- [14:52]
B
Say to yourself, hold, hold. Hold the rules. Softly. Hold. All of these. Finding steady ground rules. Softly.
- [15:01]
A
Yeah.
- [15:01]
B
4.
- [15:02]
A
I like that better. Hey, there's also. Hold on. There was also an audible. I know you're not really. You're not doing the things that profit Jeff Bezos, but if you're looking for ways to spend your leftover credits, there was a book called, like, Something About Sleep read by Richard Armitage.
- [15:19]
B
Oh, I'm not sure I could fall asleep to Richard Armitage. He's too good.
- [15:26]
A
Armitage. Sleep Sound with Richard Armitage. Armitage. It's two hours, probably.
- [15:34]
B
If he put himself into, like, the actor's task is to put the listener to sleep, he could do it. But, yeah, I mean, part of the deal with Nothing Much Happens is a yoga teacher knows that soporific voice, that softness.
- [15:53]
A
You want a bit? Richard Armitage knows it, too. Richard's rich, calm voice will lull you into a state of deep relaxation, while gentle landscapes play out and fade into the background. It's the description.
- [16:09]
B
I think people masturbate to that.
- [16:14]
A
There it is. Sleep Sound with Richard Armitage. I knew. I thought I was like, that would be Epitomous Alley. That would ring her damn bell.
- [16:25]
B
4. I will read, listen to, or share a story about how others have resisted injustice. Millions have faced repression and injustices, and we all can learn from them. Stories may be from ancestors, contemporaries in this country, or lessons from those around the globe who have faced more severe and repressive governments. The goal is to become a student of history so that you can take inspiration and deepen your understanding of how to struggle and thrive. There's a list of books and case studies. I really like the podcast Words that Win. Anat Shankar Osorio is a political messaging specialist who is very data driven and I think does an excellent job. So I'm going to recommend that. There's also the books. This is an uprising. Building a movement to end the New Jim Crow. And the films A Force More Powerful and Bringing Down a Dictator, which is about Serbia.
- [17:34]
A
I also want to recommend fictional stories.
- [17:37]
B
Oh, yes. Heck yes.
- [17:38]
A
Of heroes. Makes your body feel good.
- [17:43]
B
Yeah.
- [17:44]
A
Maybe lower stakes.
- [17:45]
B
5. Once a week, I will be aware of myself as someone who creates. A goal of injustice is to breed passivity, to make us believe that things happen to us. Events happen to us, policies happen to us. To counteract this, we need to stay in touch with our sense of personal power. One goal is to see ourselves as people who create. Whether it's cooking a meal, organizing a dazzling dramatic action, knitting a hat, making a sign, or playing the piano, we are more than consumers and our humanity must be affirmed.
- [18:21]
A
Yeah. Do a thing.
- [18:22]
B
Do a thing.
- [18:22]
A
Make a thing.
- [18:23]
B
That's.
- [18:23]
A
Yeah. Teach your body that it has the capacity to do a thing.
- [18:27]
B
Part of our patriarchy chapter is Do a thing. I immediately after the 2016 election, you built a pathway, a walkway outside your house. And I wrote a very long article in 2017, Joy policing can go fuck itself.
- [18:44]
A
Yeah.
- [18:45]
B
Joy do a thing as a part of activism has become mainstream.
- [18:51]
A
Yeah.
- [18:52]
B
And that is a difference now than in 2017, which is. I feel good about that.
- [18:58]
A
I feel good about that, too. Like, the word joy is like a word people say and talk about. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's good. Did you do a thing this year?
- [19:07]
B
I first I went to Portland, Maine, and spent some time with people I haven't seen in years. We played drag bingo and it was great.
- [19:18]
A
Good.
- [19:19]
B
And then I got home and I Rage wrote 5,000 words of what might be the new book.
- [19:25]
A
Yeah.
- [19:26]
B
Which I'll talk about in a minute. That's the thing that I did.
- [19:29]
A
For the record. I waxed my legs. I don't have the physical capacity because I have long Covid now, so I can't do really hard physical activity. But waxing my legs is a physical challenge for me now, and it accomplishes a goal. You can see an immediate result, and it's a little bit painful, which is a nice sort of, you know, purge. You know what I mean?
- [19:52]
B
Yeah.
- [19:53]
A
That's what I did.
- [19:57]
B
So. One of the people who really liked my in 2017, joy policing can go Fuck Itself was a friend of mine, a Librarian and Eastern Massachusetts who died in 2023 of cancer. PS fuck cancer. But as part of the memorial for her, there is a bench that has been engraved with the phrase queer joy matters. Stay safe. Stay furious. Practice hope.
- [20:44]
A
Cool. Sad and cool. Yeah.
- [20:50]
B
She did a thing on Instagram, the hashtag365feministselfie daily photograph. That's like, this is what we look like every day when we're not trying. When, like, it would take too much effort to curate what we look like today.
- [21:08]
A
Yeah.
- [21:09]
B
And I have started doing that again and I miss my friend. 6. I will take a conscious break from social media. Yeah. Instead, fill time with intentional and direct human interaction. You could take a full day, a week away from social media as a healthy minimum, but you decide what's right for you. The research is clear. Staying on social media leads to more anxiety, more disconnection, and more mental distress. The exposure to graphic images and reactionary language too often keeps us in our reptilian brains. That's not to deny the power of social media, but for our own well being, we must find healthy boundaries.
- [21:50]
A
Oh, yeah. That's like the best piece of advice on this list so far.
- [21:54]
B
So far. Well, that's number six.
- [21:55]
A
I mean, it's worth, like actionable short term. Do it right now to feel better. Yeah.
- [22:01]
B
And I think it goes with like the news thing. Like, find an amount of exposure that you can tolerate.
- [22:07]
A
Yeah.
- [22:08]
B
That nourishes you and does not detract.
- [22:12]
A
Yeah. Start with no exposure. Try that first. See if you can. Yeah.
- [22:17]
B
Check out for a week.
- [22:19]
A
Yeah.
- [22:19]
B
I guess after you listen to this podcast. Yeah.
- [22:25]
A
This isn't social media because we aren't. This is media, not social media.
- [22:30]
B
Yeah.
- [22:31]
A
Because we're not interacting. Like people can leave comments if they want, but we, we don't. We don't. We don't read them.
- [22:36]
B
Maybe we're not gonna read them comments and.
- [22:38]
A
Yeah. Maybe Rich will read them and like, let us know if there's things we should like, respond to, if there's good ideas or whatever. But this is not interactive. This is not.
- [22:46]
B
Yeah.
- [22:46]
A
Cultivating a parasocial relationship with listeners. This is just us talking to each other because that's good for us and because I felt like I had a thing to say.
- [22:55]
B
Something I was exposed to on social media was a guy who was following like podcast recommendation Reddit.
- [23:02]
A
Yeah.
- [23:02]
B
And he found it very entertaining when periodically podcast listeners would reinvent audiobooks because what they were looking for was like a single narrator with a story that they can follow each week. That's what I want too.
- [23:26]
A
It's called an audiobook.
- [23:27]
B
I was told that podcasts with just one voice don't work, but, like, they're my favorite.
- [23:34]
A
They're my favorite too.
- [23:36]
B
So we're making the kind of podcast we would not listen to. That might be true, but people do find it entertaining to listen to us talk to each other.
- [23:52]
A
Yeah. Well, there you go.
- [23:54]
B
So. And like, part of Burnout's message is that, like, community genuinely matters and we offer the invitation that, like, you can be our sister in connection.
- [24:08]
A
Yeah.
- [24:08]
B
If you want to.
- [24:10]
A
Yeah. But like, we as sisters, like, barely talk to each other.
- [24:15]
B
We text most days.
- [24:17]
A
We text mostly.
- [24:19]
B
Mostly pictures, screenshots of our sleep for the day.
- [24:23]
A
Right. So, like, welcome to sisterhood the Nagaski way. Which is very little.
- [24:29]
B
It's very autistic is what it is.
- [24:30]
A
It's very super d autistic. So. Yeah.
- [24:34]
B
Which means it's nourishing for us.
- [24:36]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [24:37]
B
But might not be. Whatever. It's not for everybody. Okay. Number seven. Once a week, I will commit to sharing with others what's helping me. Here we go.
- [24:47]
A
There you go.
- [24:48]
B
This is not meant to be a complete list, but rather a baseline for maintaining emotional well being in hard times. These are keystone behaviors that can help generate new patterns and consciousness. Share this list with others and add your own to it. Creating a commitment to health and building accountability as we strive for a better world. This again, is all available@findingsteadyground.com they want people to share it, so I am sharing it as a starting place for thinking about how we get through. Yeah, it sounds like a big part of how we get through is making conscious choices about what we let into our brains.
- [25:29]
A
Yeah. It's real easy to get swept into narratives that are given to us about what we should be doing. But the real advice on what we should be doing is gonna come from our own internal experiences and listening to our bodies. Yeah, right. I know, I know. It sucks, but there it is. It's the real advice.
- [25:50]
B
So can I tell you about the very small book?
- [25:54]
A
Yeah.
- [25:55]
B
My goal, I wanted to write an extremely short book for a long time. Come Together started out as like a very tiny book. And it. Yeah. Was longer than Come as you are. Oops.
- [26:07]
A
Oops.
- [26:08]
B
But I want this one genuinely to be tiny. Like 30,000 words. 35. And I want it to be for.
- [26:17]
A
People who don't know how many words books are. Burnout is 80,000 and Come as yous Are is more like 100. Right.
- [26:23]
B
And come together as 110. Yeah.
- [26:25]
A
110.
- [26:26]
B
Yeah. So I struggled to write short. I think it was Benjamin Franklin who said the thing about. I apologize for the length of this letter. If I had had time, I would have made it shorter.
- [26:39]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [26:40]
B
Like the editing is the hard part.
- [26:43]
A
Yeah. Not saying things.
- [26:45]
B
But I had the idea for it when I listened to Kamala's remarks following the election. Her concession speech or where she conceded the election.
- [26:58]
A
Yeah.
- [26:59]
B
But she said, I do not concede the fight. We will continue the fight, she said.
- [27:05]
A
Eventually, when we're in the ballot box.
- [27:08]
B
In the courtrooms, and in the public square.
- [27:13]
A
Yeah.
- [27:14]
B
And we will fight in the quiet ways, in the way we live our lives, in the way we see the face of a stranger, we can see a neighbor, in the way we use our strength to lift people up. And I thought the quieter Ways is a really good title for a book.
- [27:33]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [27:35]
B
And I thought my audience, which I do not fool myself, is primarily college educated middle class white women.
- [27:48]
A
Yeah. Well, those are the. Those. That's the. That's the primary audience for books in general.
- [27:53]
B
Yeah. A lot of us are profoundly depleted and dysregulated.
- [28:02]
A
Yeah.
- [28:03]
B
So how the fuck on earth are we going to look in the face of a stranger and see a neighbor when our bodies are so activated in a stress response that we can't even look in a mirror and see a friend?
- [28:20]
A
Yeah.
- [28:21]
B
So I thought I would write a very short book on how to practice domestic ways to practice tuning into our nervous systems, allowing flexible movement and building neurophysiological regulation at home and in our bodies so that when we are in the public square, we can stay in a regulated state even when we are looking in the face of a stranger. And maybe that stranger is a member of our own military pointing a weapon at us. Because we are protesting. We need to build profound access to regulation and moral courage. And the place that happens is not in a moment of crisis, but in our everyday relationship to our tasks of daily living. So.
- [29:26]
A
Yeah. Wax on, wax off.
- [29:28]
B
Yeah.
- [29:28]
A
Embrace tiger, return to mountain.
- [29:30]
B
Yeah. It's all. It's all. Like much of it is in burnout, but like, people don't want to read 80,000 words.
- [29:38]
A
80,000 words, people in 26 pages of references. People don't.
- [29:41]
B
That's not. Yeah, yeah, it's.
- [29:44]
A
That's a narrow audience of people who.
- [29:45]
B
Yeah. This is. This would be like a three hour audiobook. Like, much smaller. Yeah. So I don't know. This is going to be a feeling story about dogs.
- [29:54]
A
Okay.
- [29:56]
B
One of the Pieces of advice that I intend to integrate into this very tiny book is to take a month and very mindfully clean your whole house and notice when you get bored and when you get frustrated because there's no task more guaranteed to grant you opportunities for both boredom and frustration than cleaning. Like, there's no way not to take it personally when the dirt just keeps coming back, even though it's not personal. Yeah, dirt happens. That's life. But your body is going to be like, fuck you, oven.
- [30:35]
A
Yeah. Yeah. And the dust is literally made of your own exfoliated cells.
- [30:40]
B
Right. So what happened was. So some people may know that we had a very sad day some years ago now when we had to put down both of our dogs on the same day.
- [30:54]
A
Right.
- [30:55]
B
And people with fur babies know that when your pets die, their fur is still all over your house.
- [31:05]
A
It's fucking everywhere.
- [31:06]
B
Yeah. Which is both. I mean, it's heartbreaking, and you sort of want to keep it. But. So I. That day, I started cleaning the house. I swept the fur, and I vacuumed, and I just. I started, like, I kept going because it felt good to be doing something that. And what gradually happened is it turned into a mindfulness and gratitude practice where I was literally cleaning my walls and feeling grateful that I had walls to clean. And, yeah, it was boring. And, yeah, it was frustrating because I would clean something today that I had literally just cleaned yesterday, but it needed to be cleaned again. And that was an opportunity to notice that I had gotten bored or frustrated and be like, wait, this is an opportunity for gratitude. This is an opportunity to practice patience and acceptance of the cycles of life which cleaning, doing dishes, doing laundry. It doesn't have to be cleaning your house. It can also be parenting. There is so much of parenting that is some combination of boring and frustrating and, like, what a great opportunity each of those moments is to notice and turn it into a moment to say. And. And also, in addition to this boredom and this frustration, there is the gratitude that I get to have this experience.
- [32:46]
A
Yeah. I. Because I have long Covid. Don't have the physical capacity. I don't have the strength or the endurance to clean more than a couple of minutes a day. So that, as a. As a literal practice would not be okay for me. I would experience exhaustion long before I experienced frustration or boredom. But, yeah, the idea that you could do it while parenting or something else that you're already definitely doing, like, the two minutes that I can clean a day or cleaning me.
- [33:21]
B
Yeah.
- [33:22]
A
Bathing. Yeah.
- [33:23]
B
I mean, if. Yeah, bathing you is a Thing where you get bored and frustrated. I was also thinking, like, wash day for people whose hair routine takes multiple hours.
- [33:34]
A
Yeah.
- [33:34]
B
Like there may be windows of time when you feel bored and frustrated and want to shave your whole head. And what an opportunity to practice gratitude. And we can add to it now that if you do have the capacity to clean for like an hour every day, to be grateful for the health that lets you do that. Because I also cannot do that.
- [33:57]
A
Yeah.
- [33:59]
B
I can do laundry.
- [34:01]
A
How many times have you thought about shaving your head this week?
- [34:05]
B
Most days.
- [34:07]
A
Yeah. I did in fact, cut off a lot of hair.
- [34:12]
B
Yeah. Hair is a different topic from the way. But the idea is that in, in these things you have to do.
- [34:21]
A
I just thought it was worth bringing up because you said shave your head. And like, I know that you were.
- [34:25]
B
Saying that I've been thinking about shaving my head. Yeah. My. My wash day routine doesn't take multiple hours, though.
- [34:30]
A
No.
- [34:31]
B
So I don't. I don't know if it's a great idea, but the. But it's. It's happening. The thing is, I'm not really in control of it. Like, the writing of the book is happening and it's incorporating ideas and thoughts that I've been having for years. Like the. The practice of cleaning my house is from 2018. I wanna talk about what I do because my hope is broken, which I think is a valuable thing for a lot of people right now. That's a thing that is already written and I would like to keep it in the book.
- [35:05]
A
Yeah.
- [35:05]
B
I have a thing on when you're in the pit. When you're in the dark. How about 65 to 75% of the way through any Pixar movie? You're in a literal dark place. You're in a literal dark place.
- [35:23]
A
Sometimes they don't mess with metaphors at Pixar.
- [35:26]
B
With, with. With Frozen 2, they said out loud the snowman. What's his name?
- [35:34]
A
Olaf.
- [35:35]
B
Olaf goes. Where are we? And Anna goes in a dark pit with. No, they don't fuck around with metaphors.
- [35:46]
A
They don't know.
- [35:47]
B
And like. So why in a story do you need a dark moment like that close to the end? Because it is only when you are in a dark place with nothing to lose. Inside out. Little dark. Literal dark pit. Literal dark place.
- [36:03]
A
Yep. Literal dark pit.
- [36:05]
B
It is only when you have lost everything that you can let go and be able to pick up the thing. You actually. You let go of all the things that you want. This is Pixar storytelling 101.
- [36:18]
A
Yeah.
- [36:19]
B
The main character transitions from pursuing what they want to getting what they truly need. And that transitional moment happens in a dark place when they have to drop what they want in order to create space in their arms for what they truly need. And I think this is a moment where a lot of people feel like they're in a dark pit and they don't know what to do and they don't know how to get out. And I have the advantage of having multiple times been in a pit so dark I couldn't see any light.
- [36:59]
A
Multiple times.
- [37:01]
B
And every single time, there's a way out. Which means I know the way out.
- [37:09]
A
Yeah.
- [37:10]
B
Which means I can write a book about the way out.
- [37:13]
A
Yeah.
- [37:13]
B
And getting out of the pit is, for some of us, going to be a necessary precondition before we can practice the quieter ways of continuing the fight for greater freedom and justice and trying to fulfill the as yet unfulfilled promise of America.
- [37:34]
A
And as a literal reference To Inside Out 2, my thought is that Feminist Survival Project, the Zombie Apocalypse Edition, could be like, when you reach into Pouchy, you can pull out FSP Zae.
- [37:48]
B
Oh, yeah. We can be in Pouchy.
- [37:49]
A
We can be in Pouchy.
- [37:51]
B
Yeah.
- [37:53]
A
That's the sound Pouchy makes.
- [37:58]
B
I wonder how many people have seen inside out 2. Inside out 2. It made a bajillion dollars, so probably a lot of people. Man. Girl Puberty is a blockbuster.
- [38:10]
A
It's making money. Well, I think. I think Disney Pixar realized that this was a gap in. In the market, in the stories they were telling.
- [38:18]
B
Yeah.
- [38:19]
A
So they started making them. Yeah.
- [38:21]
B
Yeah. And so Turning Red also has a literal dark moment. It happens in Mae's bedroom.
- [38:26]
A
Yeah.
- [38:26]
B
When her father sits next to her watching the videos and starts talking about how huge her mother's panda was. She was so big and so big.
- [38:37]
A
Really big.
- [38:37]
B
And Mae realizes she needs to choose to keep her panda. What she truly needs is her panda. So she needs to let go of what she wants in order to create space for what she truly needs. Literally, it's every, Coco. Literally every.
- [38:51]
A
Yes. It's weak. People know.
- [38:53]
B
People know.
- [38:54]
A
They're thinking of it, too. Yeah. So it's FSPZae. Is that what the new. Is that what this is? New thing?
- [39:00]
B
Yeah. Feminist Survival Project, Zombie Apocalypse Edition. Maybe we're starting two thirds of the way through the story in the Dark Place.
- [39:12]
A
Yeah. We're starting in the Dark Place. And thing number one is I think it's okay to be in the Dark Place for a minute. Like.
- [39:21]
B
Yeah. I think the most important sentence that either of us has said was the one you said. That there is nothing inherently bad about any of the stress responses.
- [39:32]
A
Yeah.
- [39:33]
B
It's getting stuck that's the problem.
- [39:36]
A
Yeah. So if for right now you're in freeze, that's okay. Like, just don't stay there. Don't stay there.
- [39:42]
B
Yeah. And the way not to stay there.
- [39:44]
A
If that's what you need right now, permission.
- [39:47]
B
So for me, when I'm in a dark place, something. What? Sometimes what I need is to hear echoing from somewhere that I cannot see. Hey, I know you're in the dark place. And I want you to know that I'm out here in the light. And when you are ready, I could come down there in the dark place and we can figure out where your limbs are to see if you could use them to locomote in literally any direction. Because the thing is, the light is in any direction that you go.
- [40:24]
A
Yeah.
- [40:25]
B
Which doesn't make sense in physical space. But we're not in physical space. We're in emotional space.
- [40:32]
A
Yeah. But also in a physical sense of like dorsal shutdown, freeze is gonna make you be still and feel like not moving. Yeah, that. I mean, our bodies do that on purpose because it allows them to rest. So, like, it's okay to be.
- [40:46]
B
Have I talked about my blueberry metaphor on the podcast?
- [40:50]
A
Oh, yeah, I think you talked about that on. We could do hard things.
- [40:53]
B
So probably a lot of people have heard it. But quick reminder, my depression, when it consumes me, I call it the blueberry pie. Yeah, it feels like floating in like blueberry pie filling. It's sticky and gummy and it like fills up my mouth. And what I have learned is the way out is not to fight it, not to like beat myself up for being in the blueberry pie. Because there is no swimming out of it. When you're truly deep in the suck, when you're all the way in the dark, what you do is you soften so that you sink. You allow yourself to sink through and drop down out the bottom and you will land somewhere that is not the blueberry pie anymore. And where I usually land is on an emotional beach where the ocean washes away the blueberry pie. And I can just like lie there at the edge of the shore and breathe air again. And that's. So instead of fighting or beating yourself up for being in freeze, surrender to it. Because your body knows how and wants to transition through these states. And by being non judgmental, turning with nonjudgmental awareness toward whatever State you're in. Why are you smiling?
- [42:24]
A
Because we started this. This idea where you were going to. Not you were going to ignore the call to arms and you were. You didn't have anything to say and I was just going to like, be in charge and you. And like, turns out you had shit to say.
- [42:39]
B
I have rage written 10,000 words in four days. The thing I didn't know was if I had it in me to say any of it out loud.
- [42:48]
A
But turns out yes.
- [42:51]
B
Yeah, boy, do I have this, like, need to know whether or not any of that is acceptable to be heard by humans.
- [43:04]
A
Can confirm 100% yes. Does that, does that. Did that do the job? Did I.
- [43:12]
B
Do you feel it now? No, of course I don't. Because I'm in dorsal and I don't have access to connection.
- [43:24]
A
Yeah, well.
- [43:30]
B
I think that's intellectually, you.
- [43:32]
A
Know, that you heard it from me. That. Yeah, that's all good things to be heard.
- [43:36]
B
It is valuable for people to hear from someone who has spent a lot of time in the dark. And in every experience in the dark, it always ends.
- [43:48]
A
What I like about the blueberry pie metaphor is blueberry pie is fucking delicious.
- [43:52]
B
I don't particularly like blueberry pie. I like blueberries. I don't particularly of the fruit pie.
- [43:59]
A
It's not gross. You're not in hot lava. You're not in.
- [44:03]
B
Oh, yeah, that's true.
- [44:04]
A
You know, you're in blueberry pie. It's a kind of a warm, safe, edible.
- [44:09]
B
I explained the blueberry pie to our brother because he stayed in our guest room. And our guest room. He has a lot of blueberry art.
- [44:17]
A
In the guest room.
- [44:18]
B
Has a 4 foot by 4 foot painting of just like up close, larger than life blueberries.
- [44:25]
A
Yeah.
- [44:25]
B
And he was like, if we do.
- [44:26]
A
Video, you should sew a picture of it.
- [44:28]
B
What. What's up with the blueberries? And I was like, well, it's a metaphor for my depression.
- [44:36]
A
That's a very big painting of very big blueberries in a quite a small room.
- [44:41]
B
Yeah. Yep. So. So he wanted to know, so I told him. And he went womb, like. And I was like, that's not wrong. That's not wrong.
- [44:53]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [44:53]
B
And like a birth, like you, you. You drop out.
- [44:59]
A
I made a gross noise. I'm sorry.
- [45:03]
B
It is in my. In my imagination as these things happen. There. There's just silence until there's the sound of the water on the shore.
- [45:13]
A
I assume there would be a transitional noise.
- [45:17]
B
Well, now there is. Thanks very much for that contribution to my psychological Process.
- [45:30]
A
I also want to remind you that, like, it's not just a metaphorical shore that you're sitting on, but like when you physically go to the literal shore. It has that same.
- [45:38]
B
It has that same. Yeah. There's the reason why my mental metaphors are what they are. And it's because there's, there's, there's real physical corollaries that when I stand at the edge of the water in real life.
- [45:50]
A
Yeah.
- [45:50]
B
Something happens in my body. That's true.
- [45:52]
A
For a long time. I want to remind you that I. That I live 3/4 of a mile from Boston Bay. So if you want to come stand on the shore of a thing that's. You have access to that. Yeah.
- [46:01]
B
This is a long drive for. It is.
- [46:03]
A
It's like two and a half hours.
- [46:04]
B
And I have to be very far away from my own extremely wonderful bathtub.
- [46:09]
A
You do have a nice setup there. Yeah. It's true.
- [46:12]
B
Like we built it on purpose specifically for this mental state that I am in now.
- [46:17]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [46:18]
B
Where I go take 2 hour baths.
- [46:21]
A
Same daily. I don't have the energy to take daily baths.
- [46:24]
B
But, you know, lately I have been feeling like I'm not sure I have the energy to take a bath. And I'm like, I'm going to really explore to see if I have energy because I know that if I can get the bath, that will be nourishing for me.
- [46:39]
A
Yeah.
- [46:40]
B
And there are days when I don't have the energy for the bath. And that's when I know things are really dire. The only other thing that I can lose that is an indication that, like, things have gotten as bad as they get is if I can't write. I just had therapy before this and my therapist was very proud of me for writing, for how put together I am emotionally, for how good I'm doing.
- [47:12]
A
Hey. Hey. I mean, she's probably talking to some people who are ripped up.
- [47:17]
B
Yeah. Cause a lot of people, unlike me, had very serious hope and expectations.
- [47:24]
A
Yeah.
- [47:25]
B
I had one weekend of being like, maybe, maybe. And I don't regret that I spent that time allowing hope to dwell in me. I don't regret that. But I also don't regret that I spent all of 2020 preparing myself for how to be a sex educator in the context of a rabidly cisheteropatriarchal misogynist autocracy.
- [47:51]
A
Yeah.
- [47:52]
B
One of the reasons I'm doing so well is because I've been preparing for this for a long time.
- [47:57]
A
Yeah.
- [47:58]
B
And so now I guess we are doing the Thing that we spent all that time getting ready for. So what is the plan? What are we doing with the zombie apocalypse?
- [48:09]
A
I think the plan is to do this once a week to do a thing where we practice what we preach in the book.
- [48:19]
B
And it'll probably be different practices from various chapters.
- [48:23]
A
Yeah.
- [48:25]
B
And then also the darkest of the dark stuff like this. Because sometimes. Sometimes we're gonna need the darkest of the dark stuff.
- [48:33]
A
Sometimes you have to sit next to Bing bong and cry.
- [48:35]
B
Yeah. Before you have the revelation that mom and dad, the team, they came to help because of sadness.
- [48:44]
A
Yeah. Not every week will be a Pixar.
- [48:47]
B
Movie, but maybe we should do that. Maybe every week it should be like, let's look for the dark moment in every Pixar movie, starting with Toy Story 1.
- [48:58]
A
I think that's a little too specific.
- [48:59]
B
Okay.
- [49:00]
A
And if that's a thing we do, it should be like a separate thing.
- [49:08]
B
How many examples is too many examples? Three, generally, is the absolute max. You're right. I should have stopped at three. And even that was a lot.
- [49:19]
A
Yeah, we had plenty of examples. I. I did cut you off after a few. It's like, no more for you, ma'am. You gotta drive.
- [49:31]
B
I haven't had any drinks yet today and it is noon, but you've had.
- [49:36]
A
Plenty of Pixar references, and so I didn't. Time to have some water instead.
- [49:41]
B
Not planning on driving today?
- [49:44]
A
Yeah, no, I have therapy in seven.
- [49:47]
B
Minutes, so we should definitely keep that in.
- [49:53]
A
Okay, so here's us wrapping up. So we'll. We'll see you then next week.
- [50:00]
B
Weekly content that. That does.
- [50:02]
A
Feminist Survival Project Zombie Apocalypse. Richard's rich, calm voice will lull you into a state of deep relaxation while gentle landscapes play out and fade into the background. It's the description.
- [50:26]
B
I think people masturbate to that.
- [50:31]
A
Whoa, there it is.