Gender: It Begins

Summary

Podcast Summary: Feminist Survival Project - Episode: "Gender: It Begins"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Feminist Survival Project
• Hosts/Authors: Emily Nagoski and Amelia Nagoski
• Description: A podcast for feminists who feel overwhelmed and exhausted by everything they need to do, and still worry that they're not doing enough - hosted by Emily and Amelia Nagoski, authors of BURNOUT: the secret to unlocking the stress cycle.
• Episode: Gender: It Begins
• Release Date: December 6, 2024

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Introduction

In the episode titled "Gender: It Begins," hosts Emily Nagoski and Amelia Nagoski delve deep into the concept of gender, its origins, and its pervasive impact on both personal identities and broader societal structures. They aim to dismantle the "binary mirage"—a term they coined to describe the illusion of a strict gender binary enforced by societal and autocratic systems.

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The Binary Mirage and Autocracy (00:35 – 08:06)

Emily (Speaker A) introduces the concept of the binary mirage, emphasizing its foundational role in sustaining modern autocratic states. She explains that the enforcement of a rigid gender binary is not a new phenomenon but has been integral to fascist regimes since the early 20th century.

"The binary mirage being enforced, being policed on our bodies, is to keep us fueling the engine to make the richest people in the world who are in control of our government now even richer." [08:06]

Amelia (Speaker B) adds historical context by referencing Mussolini's Italy and Hitler's Germany, highlighting how these regimes used gender roles to control and manipulate populations. She underscores that these rigid roles were strategies to maintain power and suppress dissent.

"Enforcement of rigid gender roles was a major highlight of old school fascism in Mussolini's Italy and Hitler's Germany." [02:50]

---

Historical Context and Fascism (08:12 – 17:00)

Emily elaborates on how fascist leaders like Mussolini and Hitler used misogyny and rigid gender roles to consolidate power. She discusses the specific ways these leaders targeted various groups, including LGBT individuals, to instill fear and maintain control.

"Adolf Hitler absolutely targeted LGBT people in his regime. He burnt books about transgender health." [04:10]

Amelia connects these historical practices to modern-day autocratic states, explaining that the patriarchal and cis-heteropatriarchal norms remain a cornerstone in sustaining these regimes. She emphasizes that regardless of the target group, the underlying motive is to enforce conformity and suppress diversity.

"There is always a rigidly enforced, patriarchal, cis, heteropatriarchal, specifically misogynist culture, laws, norms integral to all of these autocracies." [05:21]

---

Personal Experiences with Gender Identity (17:00 – 32:18)

The conversation shifts to personal narratives, with both hosts sharing their experiences navigating gender identity within societal constraints.

Amelia discusses her role as a stepparent and how parenting influenced her understanding of gender roles. She reflects on her initial reluctance to embrace parenthood and how she found fulfillment in it despite societal expectations.

"I actively did not want children, and it was a hesitation for me getting together with my husband... But it turned out to be, like, the best possible thing ever to happen to me." [08:26]

Emily shares her struggles with conforming to gender expectations, recounting incidents where her natural expressions clashed with societal norms. She highlights the internal conflict that arises when attempting to fit into the prescribed gender binary.

"I have been misgendered. I've been called Mr. Nagaski." [20:12]

---

The Science of Gender Development (32:18 – 57:23)

Emily introduces the scientific framework for understanding gender development, referencing the work of Sari van Anders and Dr. Anfasso Sterling. She outlines the three developmental phases of gender identity formation:

1. Intersubjective Project (First 15 Months): The co-creation of an infant's understanding of their body and gender through interactions with caregivers.
2. Transitional Period (15 to 36 Months): A phase of instability where the child begins to form a subjective sense of self, including gender identity.
3. Subjective Self-Stabilization (After 36 Months): The consolidation of gender identity based on cultural and familial influences.

"Gender identity develops as the product of a lifelong three-part... it's a jazz improvisation of three instruments between your nervous system, specifically your body in general, and your environment." [33:16]

Amelia reflects on her personal journey with gender identity, discussing how societal messages often conflict with internal experiences. She recounts a moment in ninth grade where an assignment forced her to question and eventually redefine her gender identity.

"The first time the feedback loop failed me... it wouldn't reward me for conforming to feminine ideals was in the ninth grade." [37:44]

---

Language, Pronouns, and Identity (57:23 – 66:59)

The hosts explore the significance of language in shaping and affirming gender identity. Emily shares her experiences advocating for the use of the singular "they" in her book Come as You Are, emphasizing the importance of respecting individual identities over rigid grammatical rules.

"I'm going to use the singular they because the people that include matter more than your goddamn stupid fucking rule." [46:14]

Amelia discusses the challenges of adopting new pronouns, especially for those who are rule-followers or have a strong affinity for grammar. She highlights how societal rigidity in language often oppresses non-cisgender identities.

"The rules... felt like a big ask... I was a rules follower. That was a thing that genuinely stopped me from feeling natural and comfortable with." [45:55]

---

Exercises for Exploring Gender Identity (66:59 – 67:42)

To empower listeners, Emily and Amelia provide practical exercises for individuals to explore and affirm their gender identities:

1. Analyze Gender Rules: Identify and evaluate the gender norms you’ve been taught. Highlight what resonates and what feels oppressive.
2. Write Letters: Compose letters to an ancestor who was denied opportunities due to gender, and to a descendant, outlining how you’re contributing to a more inclusive future.

"Write letters to an imaginary ancestor... or maybe a real ancestor... Tell yourself a story about who wanted an education and couldn't get one because she was a girl." [63:02]

Emily encourages listeners to embrace their unique identities and challenge the imposed gender binaries, fostering a more inclusive and understanding society.

"When we create space for gender diversity, the people who are included when we do that, it doesn't just make the world better for the people who are included in this new language. It makes the world better for everyone." [53:35]

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Conclusion

Throughout "Gender: It Begins," Emily and Amelia Nagoski offer a comprehensive exploration of gender identity, its historical enforcement through autocratic means, and the personal struggles many face in reconciling internal identities with societal expectations. They emphasize the importance of dismantling the binary mirage to foster a more inclusive and equitable world. The episode serves as both an educational resource and a call to action for listeners to critically examine and reshape their understanding of gender.

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Notable Quotes:

• Emily: "The binary mirage being enforced, being policed on our bodies, is to keep us fueling the engine to make the richest people in the world who are in control of our government now even richer." [08:06]

• Amelia: "Enforcement of rigid gender roles was a major highlight of old school fascism in Mussolini's Italy and Hitler's Germany." [02:50]

• Emily: "I'm going to use the singular they because the people that include matter more than your goddamn stupid fucking rule." [46:14]

• Amelia: "The rules... felt like a big ask... I was a rules follower. That was a thing that genuinely stopped me from feeling natural and comfortable with." [45:55]

---

This episode of the Feminist Survival Project provides listeners with a nuanced understanding of gender beyond the binary framework, blending historical analysis with personal narratives and practical guidance for fostering gender inclusivity.

Transcript

[A]

That's the sound we all needed.

[B]

I got me some hot tea in a.

[A]

In a Snoopy mug and a very.

[B]

Happy snoopy mug in a very large, large mug. I love this mug.

[A]

Large canopy mug.

[B]

It fits fully two cups.

[A]

And today we're talking about gender.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Here's the deal. Rule number one is always sing as beautifully as you healthfully can. Two, do as you were told. Rule one always matters more than rule number two. There are occasions when singing not beautifully matters. And as long as you have infrastructure in place to heal from the times, when you sing less beautifully because it matters that you do that. This is all me summarizing what we've said so far here in the zombly apocalypse edition. And we decided that our next step after Let it Burn because the world is on fire is one of our most powerful fire hoses is the deconstruction of what I have come to call the binary mirage.

[B]

Good. Yeah.

[A]

So let's first talk about. And if you've read the two chapters about the binary mirage in come together, then you know approximately what I'm talking about. But here's why it's so important if.

[B]

Anybody doesn't know what come together is. It's Emily's newest book.

[A]

Yeah, it's the book I published this year about sex and long term relationships of any structure and any gender combination. And so 2020, for no particular reason, I spent a lot of time learning about what a sex educator's role might be in an autocratic state, especially in a modern autocratic state. And it turned out to be quite simple because it turns out the gender binary is a keystone of the modern autocratic state, particularly the kleptocratic kakistocracy, particularly in the kind of kleptocratic kakistocracy that is intended for the American autocratic state.

[B]

Before you define kistocracy for us, I also want to say that enforcement of rigid gender roles was a major highlight of old school fascism in Mussolini's Italy.

[A]

Oh, yeah, I'll get there.

[B]

Hitler's Germany.

[A]

Just.

[B]

Okay, okay. Good, good, good. It's not just. It's not new.

[A]

Yeah, no, it's not. It is in no way new. It is absolutely foundational to any 20th century onward. Like from the very origins of fascism, Mussolini was sexually compulsive with crowds of concubines whose lives were permanently changed once Mussolini had had sex with them because he would have soldiers follow them around. It was very bad and gross. It was all gross. The Mont is making all the bad faces you're making all the faces that make sense to make one. We talk about Mussolini sex life.

[B]

Gross.

[A]

Mussolini's sex life was real misogynist surprise. And in case anybody got confused by J.K. rowling not knowing this, Adolf Hitler absolutely targeted LGBT people in his regime. He burnt books about transgender health. That's absolutely an J.K. rowling upon being confronted with like, hey, so does it bother you at all that the thing you're saying is in line with what Hitler said?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she was like, that's not true. And when people were like, here's some history, she was like, it is in no way true that transgender people were the primary target of the Holocaust. Like, bitch. Nobody said they were.

[B]

They were a target.

[A]

We all know the Jews were the primary target. But you don't have to be the primary target to be. To feel very fucking targeted, to be.

[B]

A literal target and to be in.

[A]

Extreme danger for your life.

[B]

Because it's never just one group they come for.

[A]

It's never just one group they come for. And here's the thing, there's always a different group that different groups come for, right? So whether it's Italy in the original fascists of the 1930s, or it is the Hutu power movement of the 1990s, or as present day Poland or Turkey, they always have a them. But the them is going to be different depending, you know, what continent and culture is claiming dominance. Right? The them is going to be different.

[B]

Because it isn't actually the. The villainy of that group that's the problem. It's the fact that they need to name an enemy, so they just pick somebody who is actually perfectly innocent.

[A]

So the specificity of the enemy is going to vary from culture to culture. But what does not vary from culture to culture doesn't matter what century it is. It doesn't matter what continent the fascism or autocracy is on. There is always a rigidly enforced, patriarchal, cis, heteropatriarchal, specifically misogynist culture, laws, norms integral to all of these autocracies. There is a father of the nation, and his moral authority is deriving from his strength to physically dominate others. So why, why, why do all of these fascisms, autocracies, dictatorships, require rigidly enforced gender binary? Because the men are the gears and the capitalist machine until they are needed as cannon fodder. And women are the manufacturers of those gears. The government requires women to raise and make the babies and men to make and use the weapons. The autocracy requires our bodies to perform our genders according to our reproductive anatomy in order to fuel the churning destructive engine of the kleptocracy. In particular, at the core of 21st.

[B]

Century autocracies, for example, women were punished in Hitler's Germany for not wanting children, for. For refusing to marry and have children, and also for being what they called promiscuous, for having too many partners and not having children within the structure of a family. Like a nuclear family. Yeah.

[A]

All the way up to Putin making the LGBT movement illegal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Add to that project 2025 and we are caught up to the full future. And so it is a universal aspect. The function of the binary mirage being enforced, being policed on our bodies, is to keep us fueling the engine to make the richest people in the world who are in control of our government now even richer. Our bodies are a combination of manufacturer and cannon fodder.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So is that a bleak enough assessment of why we need to talk about the gender binary?

[B]

I believe you. Yeah.

[A]

They're going to punish us for not behaving ourselves. We're not having enough children. We are two people who have never given birth, either one of us, though. You have parented three children.

[B]

Yeah, I'm a step parent. I'm a stepparent of three people now in their late 20s and early 30s.

[A]

And you've been in their lives since they were tiny children?

[B]

Since they were tiny, tiny children. Yeah.

[A]

Sarah was a baby.

[B]

Sarah was a baby.

[A]

So you have parented. You've done a lot of parenting under difficult circumstances.

[B]

More than I ever expected to. Like, I actively did not want children, and it was a hesitation for me getting together with my husband. Like, he's got kids. I'm gonna have to be a stepmother, and oof. I don't want to do that. But it turned out to be, like, the best possible thing ever to happen to me. Like, I love almost everything about it. It's. Yeah. I still am glad I never gave birth to children. I. I didn't want to do it. I don't think I could have been a competent mother when I was younger. So, like, I think the role I had was, like, the level of parenting that I was prepared to do was had the capacity for. Does that make sense? Yeah. Okay.

[A]

So you got to make a positive contribution. You got to do something that contributed, I am absolutely sure, positively to those kids lives. And also. It was good for you too.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

And let's face it, it was really good for you to be in the presence of someone fathering their children beautifully.

[B]

Yeah. He's a Good dad. He's a great dad.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He like tells his kids he loves them out loud, they hug, they like stuff that are, they seek hugs. Yeah. They call him Daddy. Like as adults, I mean they're grown and they're like, love you, Daddy. Like. Yeah. Like witnessing someone be a father like that when our father was never like that, like it was, it was really moving to be a part of that and. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So we are, we are not anti child, we are not anti parent.

[B]

No, no, no. Yeah. This is not for us.

[A]

We just are people who never did that and therefore defied the script and are exactly the people that J.D. vance means.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When he says childless cat ladies. And he believes that we are miserable because we are not fulfilling our role.

[B]

Yeah. Although both of us have been teachers and I taught elementary school, middle school and high school, as well as college, I have taken on the, the shaping the future of, of children as a profession and I love it. And I feel like I, I made a difference to some kids, so.

[A]

And I don't enjoy children and I feel like I don't understand them and the world is a better place because I, I never taught children. I only ever taught at the college level. So the reason we're talking about gender is because an autocratic state, especially a kleptocratic state, so, so khakistocrhy.

[B]

Castocracy, a.

[A]

Kakistocracy is, is a state that is run by the worst of us. The intention is to destroy the institutions so that they are badly run, so that theft can take place, which is the kleptocracy part of it. So that we already live in rising wealth inequality that's going to go up rapidly. And the point of breaking our institutions is to make like crack it open like an egg so that Elon Musk can suck out joke. And it's going to leave the people who are already struggling the most in the worst shape. And the lie that's going to be told is that it is the fault of feminists because we, we apparently broke the economy. Apparently we in our feminism in the 70s broke the economy. It's us and not trickle down economics. And let me say like there's a correlation in the, in the time periods that women went into the workforce and trickle down economics. But I'm gonna go ahead and say that women moving in vast numbers into the workforce had more to do with. It was no longer possible to buy a home and raise a family on one income because of trickle down economics than it was because women were in the workforce and that deflated salaries.

[B]

Yeah. Correlation, not causation.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The causation is between trickle down economics, the attempt at that. That's the causation.

[A]

But there's, there's a, there is a.

[B]

Correlation between women joining the workforce, but that's not where the cause leads. Lies.

[A]

Right. And so that's the lie that's going to be told as the economy gets worse and worse and worse and worse. And all the people who voted because they wanted eggs to be more affordable are going to find that eggs are way less affordable. Not least because there's going to be a whole lot more bird flu in our eggs.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If. If RFK gets nominated. Oh, my God, don't get me started. If that happens, we'll have a.

[B]

Hey, let's just talk about gender. Let's.

[A]

We'll just have a whole Public Health episode. Some other episode.

[B]

Let's focus. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

We'll talk about the price of eggs later. When. But the reason. So they're going to lie. They're going to say that it's because women are not obeying their natural biological role.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that's the reason why it is so essential that we not buy this myth. It is not in any way supported by anything that the science has had to say about gender by any reasonable scientist for a couple of decades now.

[B]

Let's talk about the natural biological role of gender for a hot second. Because I needed you to explain this to me.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

Back many years ago, I needed you to explain to me about. Because. About gender. Because I was like, well, isn't it an anatomical though? Like, isn't that true? And you were like, yeah, anatomical sex, not binary. And I was like, but I mean, there's that whole XY thing. And you were like, yep, chromosomal sex, not binary, not binary. And I found that to be a tremendous relief. So in terms of anybody claiming that, like, the science says there are two sexes. So if anybody feels like they don't have the weapons to argue that, to fight against that, the science that refutes that is anatomical sex, not binary. Chromosomal sex, not binary. Social gender ideas.

[A]

Gonadal sex, also not binary. Gonads are your sexually producing organs. It's your testes, ovaries.

[B]

That's what I meant by anatomy.

[A]

Anatomy is your external organs. So whether you have a penis or a vagina or a clitoris, like, there's the. So intersex folks are the example of anatomical sex not being binary. And there's a wide Variety of intersex conditions that result in genitals that. I mean, when you look at them, maybe some people see it's a boy and some people see it's a girl, But a lot of people are like something in the middle.

[B]

Yeah. So anyway, anatomical, gonadal, chromosomal, all not binary.

[A]

All real.

[B]

All real. All biological sex is real, not binary.

[A]

And at no level of analysis is it binary.

[B]

And also culturally, it's really only a few cultures who decided that gender is a strict binary and there's no in between. And we happen to be the culture that colonized most of the rest of the world.

[A]

Yes. Western Christian colonization erased from the earth a great variety of cultures where as people grew up like they were growing up in cultures that had three or four or five or no genders as differentiated based on reproductive organs.

[B]

Yeah. So which is why all of us can confidently say that gender is a social construct of the white supremacist patriarchy.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's colonialism, it's imperialism.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So even biological sex is not binary.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So why on earth would cultural gender be binary?

[B]

Right.

[A]

The reason it would be binary culturally is that the machine needs cogs.

[B]

Yeah, Right. Yeah.

[A]

Great. Good, good. So clarifying. Biological sex, real and on no level, binary. And the autocracy requires you to believe that binary is not only real, but also mandatory. And you are violating your role as a human on Earth if you do not follow the rules that are associated with the category you get put into on the day you're born and people look at your genitals and go, it's a boy or it's a girl or it's an intersex person. We're gonna have to operate. Which the United nations special reporter for torture has. It's been categorized as a form of torture to operate on the genitals of an intersex person before they are old enough to give consent. Yeah, just that's. That's the thing. That's been true for a long time now. For way over a decade now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And here we still are.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So have we all bought into the idea that gender not sex. Biological sex, for sure. Not a binary, biological sex, real and not binary. And I want to acknowledge that humans are like a sexually dimorphous species. Our basic system of reproduction is based on, like, the it's a boy people having sperm and the it's a girl people having eggs. But that does not in any way change the reality that when you get down to the individual level, you find a vast Array of diversity.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not just people. In the. It's a girl group. In the. It's a boy group.

[B]

That's a science thing I learned while writing Burnout. The difference between things that are true at a population level and the things. Those same things, as they manifest at an individual level, are so much more nuanced. And it's valuable to talk about things at a population level. Girls become women who have babies. At a population level, that's true. But at an individual level, that means nothing.

[A]

Yes, it means nothing. So you as you are you. And it may be true for you. It may be true for any given listener, as it is for me. That basically, the role I got assigned on the day we were born was not an awful fit for my identity. When people indicate me and say she, that feels better for me than if someone indicates me and they say them or he. I have been misgendered. I've been called Mr. Nagaski. I've been called Mr. Fly. Yeah. We fly together.

[B]

And people think we're like a married couple or something.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And they call me Ms. Nagaski. And you Mr. Nagoski.

[A]

Yeah. Even even though we're both technically Dr. Nagolski.

[B]

Even though we're both technically Dr. Hagoski.

[A]

And this was, like, actually a revelatory moment for you because it happened and I was like, well, it doesn't feel good.

[B]

I was like. I was a little jealous.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How come you're the one who got misgendered?

[A]

How come I'm the one who got misgendered? It's just because my choices in clothing were slightly more obscuring.

[B]

All our lives, I have presented as more feminine than you. Would you say that's true?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I think that's partly why you carry around.

[A]

And I have always been like, why are you doing that? Why are you putting on makeup? Why are you wearing a dress? Yeah.

[B]

And I've always been like, how come you're not doing this thing we're supposed to do? Because I have been performing gender for as long as I can remember. As kids, my favorite color was pink because I was told that's what girls favorite. It was never my favorite color. I'm just admitting that. I'm sorry, Aunt Sally. You bought me all that pink stuff because you thought I was my favorite color. It was the color. I was told that girls were supposed to be their favorite, so I was.

[A]

Doing that when we got our first big girl bikes.

[B]

Yeah. I'm a rule following autistic, Right?

[A]

Yeah. Right.

[B]

I'm not A rule being autistic.

[A]

Yours was sky blue.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

With a big banana seat and streamers on the handlebars.

[B]

Yeah. And clouds, but it wasn't pink. And I was. I really, like, I love that bike so much.

[A]

Mine was a black bmx.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I love that bike.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And credit to our mom. I was like, I want that one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I got no shit for it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

None.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Clearly, our mother had other things. Bigger stuff. Rye. In our lives than, like, which bike her kid chose.

[B]

Yeah. She didn't care.

[A]

But, like, there are a lot of parents who would be, like. Would have, like, at least questioned my choice, pointed me towards something more feminine, and it just didn't happen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Thank goodness our mother had bigger fish to fry than my gender expression.

[B]

Yeah. And I also think that she had had experiences where she felt obliged to put on the sleep every time she left the house. And she knew that that was uncomfortable and kind of unfair. And she, you know, anyway, I absorbed the idea that these are things that girls do. And so I, as I always. You have the blessing of having an internal experience that shouts at you.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So that you just don't. If a rule doesn't feel comfortable, you just don't follow it.

[A]

Mostly.

[B]

Yeah, mostly.

[A]

Unless I get punished for not following it.

[B]

Whereas my internal experience is barely a whisper. So if a rule comes along, that's.

[A]

Much louder to me than anything coming from inside you.

[B]

Right. So I just follow the external rules until the stress of trying to reconcile the external rules with my internal experience become so stressful that I end up in the hospital. Yeah. So that's not great. But I think that's why I always conformed more to, like, the gender expectation than you ever did. And I think that might be why you kind of still have this, like, underlying feeling that I was always the pretty one. I was always the one who was.

[A]

Following the feminine one. Oh, that's interesting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You were the one who obeyed. And that made you pretty.

[B]

It made me conform.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And conforming is kind of what we always thought of as pretty.

[A]

Whereas I have always had access, for example, to my rage.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So in the fourth grade, I was really angry at an adult.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that adult told me, you look really ugly when you're angry.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I remember that. And. Yeah. You just didn't have access to your rage. And so nobody ever told you you were ugly when you were angry. Yeah.

[B]

Because I.

[A]

You didn't do it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So let's. Let's talk about. Do you want to talk about the science of this, I don't feel equipped.

[B]

To talk about the science of it.

[A]

Do you want me to explain to you some of the science of how our gender identity develops? Please do.

[B]

You tell the science and I'll be like, oh yeah, this is true or not true for me.

[A]

Yeah. So we're primarily looking at the research of Sari van Anders and has been studying this since the 80s and her work.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Really, really essential. Yeah. Back in the 90s she was writing about the five sexes and it's just really brilliant. Way ahead of its time work. I, I don't recommend that people go and read the work from the 90s because like, the language has changed so fast.

[B]

Right.

[A]

The science has changed so fast that it feels out of date in a way that can feel alienating to people who aren't aware of the history.

[B]

Gotcha.

[A]

But like, let's just stick with the work from the 20 from the 2000s. Okay. So Dr. Anfasso Sterling explains the development of gender as beginning roughly at birth and in roughly three developmental phases. Are you ready?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Phase one, the first 15 months of after birth. The phenomenon that she and Sari van Anders label gender sex is an inter subjective project. An inter subjective project. So it is between two subjects, and those subjects are the infant and the caregiver. The infant and the caregiver are co creating the infant's first understandings of their body and its parts and what all of those things mean. Your body gets held and bathed, your diapers are changed, Your vocalizations are responded to by people who have ideas about who you are likely to become based on the gender they assigned you when they looked at the shape of your genitals. Does that make sense so far?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So if you are assigned the it's a boy category based on the shape of your genitals, then when you have a really loud protesting vocalization, you're being a boy. And if you have the it's a girl shape of genitals and you make a really loud protesting vocalization, you're being a bad girl.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Does that make sense?

[B]

Yeah. Aren't you a bossy little baby as opposed to, oh, what a strong man boy you're gonna be. Yeah.

[A]

A woman read come as you are. She told me the story of watching her adult brother changing his baby daughter's diaper and she was all clean. He reaches for the fresh diaper. When he looks back at her, the little baby is touching her genitals and he goes, don't touch that. And this woman who had just read Come as you are. Was like, I was thinking, what would he have said? How would he have reacted if his baby had had a penis instead? Yeah, like he might have been like, get out of there, I got to change your diaper. But would he have scolded his child? And don't we love it when our babies discover new parts of their bodies? Don't we celebrate when a baby finds their feet? Did you find your feet? Did you find your feet? Are you a baby toes? You woozies, right? Yeah. So that's the intersubjective project, the first year and a half, approximately, of a child's life where your body is having its identity co created with the adult caregivers who, who hold your body and respond to your needs. Yeah, there's a short sort of like 15 to 18 months window that is sort of a transitional period of instability is what Anne Foster Sterling calls it. We are transitioning from the intersubjective phase to gender, sex, subjectivity. So it's just like a massive transition that we don't really understand yet. And eventually there'll be a calculus formula that explains the transition from phase one to phase three. But phase three is the initial stabilization of the subjective sense of self. This is, we were talking last time about how, like, babies at first don't understand that they're different and separate from other people, and then they're like, I could say no. So the initial stabilization of the subjective sense of self comes along with the realization that this person is separate from other people. 18 to 3, 18 months to the age of 3, 36 months in this period, this little tiny human is getting their own sense of self, and that includes their own sense of their gender sex. The super short version is that you spend the first year and a half of your life being told over and over and over, you're a girl, you're a girl, you're a girl, and you're adult caregivers. Whether you're a parent, they're a parent, they're an employee at an orphanage, or whoever they are. They engage with your body in ways that are shaped by their understanding of what it means that you're a girl, you're a girl, you're a girl. And you meet with all these other humans who are like children around you and adults, and they're all treated as boys or girls or men or women. And all of this is teaching your body who you are in the context of your family and in your culture. From then on, your identity is the product. So that's now you're three. And you have understood that you are a participant in this culture, that you are. You're a girl, you're a girl, you're a girl, or you're a boy, you're a boy, you're a boy. You're learning by the way people treat you and by the way people in your category are treated and people not in your category are treated. What that means about how you're supposed to behave. Are you a strong boy? Are you a sweet, pretty, nice little girl?

[B]

I gotta say, you just repeating, you're a girl, you're a girl, you're a girl. Feels a little bit like you're poking me. It feels a little uncomfortable. I know you're not talking to me, but even just hearing it makes me like, yeah, exactly. Now that I can hear my internal.

[A]

Experience, because would you say something has changed within you?

[B]

Something is not the same.

[A]

Are you through playing by the rules of someone else's game?

[B]

I can't remember the next line.

[A]

Me either.

[B]

I don't know. I don't think it has changed.

[A]

There's a reason why Wicked is wicked. There's a reason why Cynthia Erivo is Cynthia Revo.

[B]

I don't think it has changed. I think I am more attuned to my internal experience.

[A]

Yes. The thing that has changed within you is not your identity. It is your ability to recognize your internal experience.

[B]

Yeah. Just yesterday I went to an opera and I asked somebody who was working there, where are the restrooms? And he went, the ladies room is around the corner. And I was like, oh, you're just gonna gender me like that, huh? I mean, and I know, I know everything about me cries middle aged lady. I know that. But like, the discomfort that comes of.

[A]

Being told, I bet all the bathrooms were over there. And it was just unnecessary for that person to say the ladies room.

[B]

No, literally was. The ladies room was over there and the men's room was like, on the other wing, like, so he did have to specify.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because he kind of emphasized the ladies room is over here.

[A]

Yep. Oh, dear.

[B]

Yeah. So, I mean, it just was like. And I get it. People are going to do that. It's fine. I get it. But it was like, now that I'm aware of my own internal experience, I can feel how uncomfortable it is.

[A]

So that's important because though we don't have a solid model for how gender identity develops beyond the third year of life, because that's already so complex what happens in those first three years.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But at a broad, I'm Just going to sort of broadly describe what's happening inside the body of a human navigating the world. Your identity develops as the product of a lifelong three part. You can think of it as like a jazz improvisation of three instruments between your nervous system, specifically your body in general, and your environment. Right. So your nervous system knows things, and it tells your body what to do about that knowledge. And your body does the things that your nervous system tells it to, and thus it engages with the world, and the world gives feedback about what you did. And the body receives that feedback and passes it on to the central nervous system.

[B]

Yeah, which teaches the brain.

[A]

Oh, the brain receives new information which shapes what the brain tells the body to do next, which changes how the body behaves, which changes the feedback you get. It's this constant ongoing loop. So if you get the it's a boy assignment, you're a boy, you're a boy, you're a boy. Your brain is learning that affectionate cuddling with a parent feels good, because that's just true. So it tells the body to go seek some affectionate cuddling with an adult caregiver. And the parent responds by telling the child to be a big boy and go play. And the body conveys that feedback to the brain, which knows that acceptance from adult caregivers for children is literally a matter of life and death, life or death. And so it learns that how. It does not matter how nice affectionate cuddling feels. It's not as important as being accepted by the adults in your life. And so you got to find something else that feels good, since affectionate cuddling is out of bounds. Yeah, but imagine. Imagine a world where you live in a culture where there's more than two genders. Let's just simply create three genders. Okay, so I'm going to use the phrase two spirit here, acknowledging that it is a compromise term that collapses Indigenous American cultures into one term, just to make it easier to talk about. Because across indigenous populations of North America, many different cultures had many different ways of constructing gender. And, like, there's not a right number of gender identities. 2 isn't right. 0 isn't right. 5 isn't right, 4 isn't right. There's just different ways of constructing gender. And the gender construction that exists in the culture of your life is going to shape how your body receives it. So if you grow up in a culture where there's, say, there's men and there's women and there's two spirit people, and you happen to be a young two spirit Child you were assigned probably girl or boy at birth, but you're going to wander through your culture family member to family member, meeting people who are men, meeting people who are men, meeting people who are two spirit. And you learn that even if the adults treat them like, you're a boy, you're a boy, you're a boy. Also, your brain is like. And these other people exist too, too Spirit people. And as you develop within that world, your brain learns that spaces filled with two spirit people are the places where you feel comfortable. And so your nervous system is going to guide your body to those spaces where your body finds joy and comfort that it doesn't find in the it's a girl spaces or the it's a boy spaces. And thus the identity evolves in response to accesses of those spaces. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So if you're a trans woman and you go to the grocery store and the person at the checkout interacts with you based on their perception of you as a woman, that feeds back to your brain and reinv. It's. This is the reason why it's called gender affirming care.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is because it feeds back to the brain's understanding that you're a woman, you're a woman, you're a woman. And this all follows a period of life when the world was reacting to her body with, you're a boy, you're a boy, you're a boy. And it felt that poke, that poke that you felt. It's like that for every day, every moment, for years, and it feels so wrong. And then you find out that transgender is a thing a person can be.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you're like, oh, I could fix this. What if I could fix this?

[B]

When I heard the term agender for the first time, I was like, Because I. In my 30s, I kind of had an idea that I didn't identify quite okay. No. The first time the feedback loop failed me that it wouldn't reward me for conforming to feminine ideals was in the ninth grade. Mrs. Robinson assigned us a poem. And the assignment was to write a poem that went, I am a adjective noun. And the noun would stay the same and the adjective would change. So, for example, I am a tall girl, I am a brown eyed girl or whatever. And I could not bring myself to put I am a anything girl or anything woman.

[A]

I.

[B]

They just felt, just everything in me said no. And so some boy I knew was taking French glass and he was like, how about you use femme?

[A]

That's the.

[B]

That's the French word. And I guess the, the word, it was foreign enough to my brain because I did not take French that like. So I ended up using I am a whatever femme in it. And I. There was no language about being like a femme boy.

[A]

That did not exist in 1991.

[B]

Like that. That was not part of the vocabulary then. So it worked out. But that was the first time that I like my internal message was louder than the external message. I remember it very clearly. So in my 30s when I was like in doctoral school and I had people around me who were studying gender studies at the doctoral level talking about gender identity and stuff, I had the thought like, my gender identity is boss ass bitch. Because that felt truer than any like girl or woman or anything had ever felt.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then I learned the term agender and I was like, oh. Because I never felt I was male or female or masculine.

[A]

Because you didn't want to write I am a whatever boy.

[B]

No, that wasn't true.

[A]

That also didn't feel like.

[B]

And if I had known the term like non binary, as if I have a gender. It's just not either one of these two. It's a third thing, which is what I always perceive non binary to be is like some other option of gender.

[A]

Sure. Like genderqueer. Gender fluid. Gender fluid. These are sort of the opposite of agender in a way because it's like, yeah, whole bunch of lot of like Alok, who is this like spectacular poet, performer, comedian, brilliant gender fluid person. And if you're not familiar with the work of Alok Menon, you should go for. Find them everywhere. Spell it Alok.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Is all you need. And they just have like lots of gender expression. They express a lot of gender in different ways given the day.

[B]

The idea that people feel gender is so weird to me. It feels like like term does not apply to me. Just none of that. No. Thank you. No. I didn't know there was a word for that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is funny because my sister is one of the world's leading experts in gender and sex.

[A]

And I feel like you were kind of like I said the word. But I mean, I would definitely not have like paused to define it.

[B]

No.

[A]

Because like so many people who have people in their lives under the trans umbrella, it didn't occur to me that I might have someone in my life in my like, immediate family. Yeah. Your twin. It truly just didn't occur. You might.

[B]

That might have identical genes to my.

[A]

Identical twin would have a different gender identity. Yeah. And it's not that I feel like deeply woman.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's that woman is better than anything else.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He for sure doesn't feel good. And this is, like, a simple way for people who identify as cisgender to, like, find their way into exploring their gender identity.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like, how does each pronoun option feel to you?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because sometimes people use they for me when they're not sure what genders I. What pronouns I. Sure. And it's a way of being polite.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, like, it doesn't feel as good as she. She feels best, huh?

[B]

Yeah. I, again, since high school, have been, like, baffled that people talk about me as she. They mean me. I'm a she. Okay. Like, I guess that's true. And I've gotten used to it, but, like, I had to get used to it. I really definitely was like, she means me.

[A]

Whereas I had, at almost exactly the same time, maybe a year later, I was in the school play because, of course I was in the school play.

[B]

Of course you were.

[A]

It was the Crucible, as a matter of fact, I had a small role. I had four lines in the crucible, and Mr. Smith was.

[B]

I was stage crew for the Crucible, just so we understand the roles we played.

[A]

Yeah. And Mr. Smith was giving direction, and he pointed at me, and he pointed at the path I was supposed to travel. And he's talking to a different actor on stage and says, she's gonna go from here downstage to here. And I had a little flutter of gender joy. I really liked the feeling of being referred to as she. At 15, there is a part of.

[B]

Me that is still one year old, assuming that everyone's experience of gender is the same as mine, because it really feels like I still have kind of the default feeling. I know that this is wrong, but I have the default feeling, like, people are only ever performing gender. And I know that that's not true, but it still feels confusing to me that people really do identify that I.

[A]

Have an internal experience of being placed in the category of a gender and feeling good about it.

[B]

Yeah. That seems weird to me. I kind of assumed that everyone was just performing gender like me.

[A]

Like, we all knew it was fake, and we're all just following the rules.

[B]

And you're all just exactly like emotions. Like, that's how I felt about emotions. Like, in college is people who are big and dramatic are just, like, faking emotion because they think that they're supposed to. I know that that's not right or true.

[A]

Yeah. And here I have this, like, really clear memory.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Of feeling so affirmed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

By. And there was no reason anybody would ever refer to me as anything other than Xi in 1992.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

So if you're, like, exploring your gender, start by exploring pronouns.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And if what you come to is okay, so other pronouns feel different, then you might be somewhere under the transgender umbrella.

[B]

My thoughts about pronouns were very much flavored by our grammar conscious father upbringing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Like, we were quizzed on grammar at the dinner table, and I was always very good at grammar. I scored, like, my. My GRE score in. In verbal intelligence with people who are, like, had master's degrees in writing and stuff. Like, I was in the top, top, top percentile for verbal.

[A]

Yeah, I had the highest.

[B]

So me. And also because I am a rules follower. I love grammar because the rules are so complicated and interesting and purposeful. I mean, they do have.

[A]

Interesting and complicated. Yes.

[B]

I mean, no. And, like, when you break a rule, it's purposeful. And like, whether or not to.

[A]

It does something to the meaning.

[B]

It does something to the meaning. And to know the rules and to break the rules on purpose has value. Right. So anyway, my. One of the holdbacks I always had about non, he, she pronouns was the grammar of. It felt like a. Like, it was so much. It was such a big ask of a person to use a different pronoun. I don't feel that way now. I understand now. Yeah. But that was. That was because I was a rules follower. That was a thing that genuinely stopped me from feeling natural and comfortable with. With.

[A]

Let the record show that in 2014, I had to fight through three grotesque copy edits of Come as you are, where I insisted over and over again. I don't care what your fucking grammatical style. She, whatever. I'm going to use the singular they.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm not going to use he or she. I'm not going to use S slash. He. We're using the singular they because the people that includes matter more than your goddamn stupid fucking rule.

[B]

For the record, three copy edits is way more copy edits than one is.

[A]

The usual number of copy edits. Yeah, it was disgusting. I had to write a letter explaining that the human beings involved here matter more than the rules. And I do believe that Come as yous are is the first book published by Simon and Schuster that intentionally uses singular they throughout. Yeah, and there was like, I had a hard.

[B]

Now there's no argument. Now people know.

[A]

Within 10 years later, the Chicago manual style changed the rules to include the singular they. And when we copy ed burnout in 2018, 18, there was no fight. 17 There was no fight.

[B]

Yeah. No fight. No.

[A]

So in some domains, things have changed. The rules changed fast. When people started fighting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When like, just like huge numbers of people refused. And I'm sure there were authors before me who fought. Who fought hard.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I happened to continue fighting hard enough because it mattered enough to me that I was like. And the thing is, it's so small. It is this tiny change.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It is almost invisible, especially 10 years later. It is an invisible reality that took up months of my life that I had to fight for that. And this is me claiming credit for, like, the work I put in to make this tiny fucking change. And that's the thing, is that it takes all of us working as hard as we can, caring about the details of inclusion to make tiny changes.

[B]

And this just goes to show the rigidity of the gender binary in. So rigid in society that we do value a grammar rule over the honoring of human identity.

[A]

And let's face it, we all fucking understand what singular they means.

[B]

We do. But we were all also explicitly taught, do not use it or else that shit sits deep inside us.

[A]

Let me offer two. Two experiences that I can name myself having because I have a degree of, like, expertise and legitimacy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where that protects me from the judgment that might come from these two stories. Story number one. The first day in my life that I ever had to talk about a non binary person in the. In the third person, I was talking to a student who was in a relationship with a non binary person. And it was the first time I'd ever had to do it. This is 2008, and it was a tongue twister that first time and only that first time. But let me acknowledge there's some friction the first time you refer to an individual human with they and themselves. Do you think themselves? Is it themself?

[B]

I think it's themself.

[A]

I use them self. But yeah. No, it was like that first time I had to stop and think about it. It used a little bit of cognitive load.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I feel comfortable saying that out loud because it was just that one time. And, like, you get over it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. New stuff is new and you. Yeah.

[B]

And it does take a little extra thinking. And you know what does it take you so much effort that it's that.

[A]

You'Re not gonna recognize that other person's human experience.

[B]

Right, Exactly. Like the amount of so minuscule compared to, you know, the importance of being a respectful communicator. Yeah.

[A]

And so that same year is the first time I heard the phrases people who get pregnant and people who menstruate.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was working at Smith College, and I had been working with and around and for transgender people for many years at that point already. And this was a new way of talking about reproductive roles.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Even though I 100% knew that it mattered because, like, I'm not a person who menstruates, I haven't had a period in a really long time because of my birth control. And I recognize the value of having a term that described only the people who are included, only the people who have periods need to be talked about here. But everybody who has a period needs to be talked about here, regardless of what their gender identity is. And we have already established that your gender identity is not constrained by your reproductive organs and their functioning.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so. But I was working at a women's college, and I was feeling the ways that women do not yet have all the things that they deserve.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I had a moment. I had a thing happen in my heart that was like, I want women to be able to take up space. I want that for women, because we still have, in America a really shocking rate of maternal morbidity and mortality, and we haven't fixed that. And we're already going to transition into language that includes trans and non binary people when even just cisgender women still have so much ground to cover to catch up to cisgender men.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Really? Are we gonna do that? And I didn't talk about it online because I recognized that this was a me problem.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I talked about it with my therapist, who also does work around, like, supporting trans students at every grade level. And she could hear me say, I know that both of these things are true, and I need a day to make space for it inside me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that was 2008. And I made space for it inside me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I did not fucking tweet my feelings. Because some feelings are feelings that you have inside, inside with your friends, with your helping professionals, and some feelings are feelings that you put on the Internet. And the way you tell the difference between those two is. Have you processed this privately first?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Have you looked at where your feeling is coming from? And does that feeling matter more than the people who are included in this new language?

[B]

Yeah. No.

[A]

No. Because when we create space for gender diversity, the people who are included when we do that, it doesn't just make the world better for the people who are included in this new language. It makes the world better for everyone.

[B]

And honestly, we all know that a lot of women are included in that. Like, the, the thing that TERFs complain about is that that kind of language erases women. That's just.

[A]

There's so many of us. We are not gonna get erased. And I. The thing is, I know when they say. When they say that that language erases women, I know that that is coming from their feeling that, like, I have been erased.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Girl, I feel you. I get that. I get that feeling. And imagine being fucking agender.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How erased is that?

[B]

Yeah, like, I'm a person who menstruates because I'm not on birth control. But I. I really felt uncomfortable when that dude told me where the ladies room was.

[A]

And I don't know because, like, I. I don't know what the bathroom answer is for you.

[B]

The answer is the ladies room because it's much cleaner. Like, no, I would never go into a men's room. Like, first of all, they smell worse. I don't have the. Like, you know, you go into a stall.

[A]

But they have fewer stalls.

[B]

They have fewer. Like, no. And I, I have no interest in the men's room. Like, a men's room is not more comfortable to me than a women's room.

[A]

But it is cleaner. The women's room.

[B]

It's cleaner. There's more stalls.

[A]

Like, and nobody in there is going to assault you, probably, right?

[B]

Nobody in there is gonna assault me. Like, yeah, it's. And honestly, the problem in the bathroom is that usually if I'm using a public bathroom, I'm in a wheelchair. And, you know, is there only one accessible stall? And is that stall being used by someone who is in their. Because they prefer a big stop.

[A]

Were you using your wheelchair when you were directed to the ladies room?

[B]

I was.

[A]

And I don't suppose you could have asked for, like, is there a specific accessible.

[B]

No, it. It was a very. It was in Boston at Jordan Hall.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So, like, the building was 150 years old. And, like, there's only one elevator in the building.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's very slow. And like, they have a separate entrance for people in a wheelchair. Like, it is a jerry rigged ass backwards. Yeah. Disability accessibility is, again, another separate issue.

[A]

But, yes, a different thing.

[B]

Okay, so we have covered why gender is important to talk about when we're fighting fascism. We've talked about what gender kind of actually is and how it develops in infancy.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then I've talked about some of my experience of, like, coming to understand outside messages versus inside messages and discovering that, like, the word gender doesn't apply. I just don't it doesn't apply to me. And then your like CIS experience of being like, yep, absolutely. I want to talk for just a hot second about being non binary and autistic because there is a very high correlation.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Between trans and non binary people and autistic people like that. The, the overlap on that Venn diagram.

[A]

Because the ones like me who are not rule followers will like get to adolescence and be like, those rules don't have anything to do with anything. That's all nonsense. I'm not going to do it.

[B]

Yeah. Of like being able to see that the rules are bullshit and being like, oh no, I'm not conforming. Which is kind of why I have. I do still have a feeling that there are more non binary people in the world who just. Oh yeah, again, this is me assuming everyone is like me. But I can't help but think that there are more non binary people in the world that just haven't thrown off the shackles of the gender binding. Actual.

[A]

25 years ago, the GLBT, a student group on the Indian university student campus, that's what it was called at the time, had a panel. The GLBTA student group had a panel of bisexuals. And I volunteered to be on that panel.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And a guy in the audience, a gay boy in Indiana, God love him, raised his hand and said that, I think that when gay people are more included, no one will identify as bisexual. And I said, I think when gay people are more included, almost everyone will identify as bisexual.

[B]

I kind of feel the same way.

[A]

I'm like bearing in mind that who you are attracted to is a separate thing from how you identify.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

How you identify as your gender identity, who you're attracted to as your sexual orientation.

[B]

Totally independent of each other.

[A]

So yes. So we talked about why they're going to try and enforce the gender binary. That is why trans people were the target of so much hate and have been increasingly the target of so much hate for the last, God, close to 10 years. We talked about the fact that the gender binary is a total illusion. It's a mirage. It looks real, just like any good mirage, but the closer you get to it and the more you know about it, the more you. It disappears.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is what we've been trying to do here is to help the mirage shimmer away. And you're like, oh, there's no water there.

[B]

And the loudmouth people who say, like, gender is basic science. Yeah, it's basic science that you learned in middle school. But like, there's a reason that it's basic. It's because it's incomplete.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know what? I can tell you that triads are the only acceptable kind of harmony. But, like, the minute you get into harmony 102, the second level, not even, like, the fifth level, not gra. But like, the second level of music theory, you learn how dissonance works and that you do it on purpose. Right, right.

[A]

And the second level of gender is there's any number of genders.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And there's. There's any number of biological sexes because you gotta count gonads and chromosomes and anatomy in addition to the whole, like, gender identity piece of it that develops over the first several years of your life. And then, like, there's the ways people mask their deep identity because they're so busy performing.

[B]

Yeah. Because the feedback loop rewards conformity.

[A]

And if you have Netflix, go ahead and watch Will and Harper, which is about a road trip with Will Ferrell and his trans friend Harper. And they go to, like, dive bars and stuff. And I like Will Ferrell.

[B]

Good. I'm gonna watch that.

[A]

Yeah. If you have Netflix. I don't have Netflix, so I haven't seen it. My therapist.

[B]

I got it just for this month so that I could watch something specific.

[A]

Another thing that we have done in this episode, this is the part where we summarize what we did. We talked about the ways that you can begin to explore your own gender identity if the cisgender thing maybe is not working for you. Begin with playing around with how it feels to be called certain pronouns. Think about, like, what are times that you have felt really affirmed in your gender? Times that you have felt really uncomfortable and dissonant in your. The gender that was assigned to you. And if you're a person who's like, yeah, it turns out cisgendered, like, I just. I just. I'm. They told me I was a girl. Turns out I'm a girl.

[B]

Yeah, most people are like that, probably.

[A]

Yeah, most people are like that. It's way less than 10% are.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Something other. But again, like, as it becomes, if.

[B]

You'Re autistic, it's almost half.

[A]

Yeah. Because the rules. So for a lot of people, it's going to turn out that you're cisgender. And your job is to, one, create as much space in your brain as possible for the different experience of people under the transgender umbrella. And you want to work really hard to dismantle the bullshit part of what you were assigned. Because just because you're a woman doesn't mean you need to reproduce. It doesn't mean you don't deserve an education. It doesn't mean that you deserve to be submissive in a relationship or that if you your. That your closing choices can cause a man to stumble.

[B]

I. I want to talk about a thing right there about the. Because even though I was performing gender always, I don't think I never, I definitely never internalized femininity or womanhood so that when I in the eighth grade decided I wanted to be a conductor and you know, people say if you can't see it, you can't be it. And representation matters. Like, I didn't need to have ever seen a woman conductor to feel like I could be a conductor because I. I didn't know that I was supposed to con. I didn't know that I was going to be a woman when I grow up. All I knew was I was going to be a conductor when I grew up. And I feel like that did free me to be a thing that otherwise I might never have occurred to me that I could be.

[A]

Yeah, no, I feel like autism has protected me from a lot of for sure bullshit also.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I also want to so in it. So if you get come together. I have these sections where I talk about like, what are the rules of the it's a boy people? And what are the rules you're supposed to follow if you're an it's a girl girl person. And you can just like read those sections and choose like highlight the ones that feel like they match what you were told, cross out the ones that don't feel like they match what you were told. Circle and highlight the things that feel like I have felt like I had to follow this rule and it has felt so wrong and bad and victimizing. And if there are ones that feel empowering, like highlight those, like write, figure out what the rules you've been following are and make choices about the rules that you want to follow. And last tip as because you're going to need to do a whole bunch of work if you're a cisgender person who is new to building space in your body and your heart for the diversity of gender expression, then I'm going to ask you to write letters to an imaginary ancestor or maybe a real ancestor. If you know of one who was denied something she wanted because of her gender, maybe there's an ancestor you know of for sure. Or you can tell yourself a story about who wanted an education and couldn't get one because she was a girl. It was never even Consistent. Considered. Maybe you have an ancestor who was transgender or lesbian. Like, write a letter about the ways you're working to make the world. That would create space for that ancestor. And I want you to imagine a descendant, or it could be a living descendant, about the ways you are working to make the world better so that she does not have to work as hard as you do.

[B]

I feel like this would be a great exercise for trans people, too. I remember very.

[A]

They've already done a lot of work. Like you. Go ahead.

[B]

I'm sure.

[A]

But.

[B]

Okay. I was talking to a trans student who had just come out and she was in my office talking about stuff. And she has a beautiful singing voice. Right. She got a lot of solos in choir and she was complaining. She wanted to be like a soprano and have a much higher voice. And I was like, a, your voice is beautiful the way it is. And B, I played her a recording of Isaiah Barnwell, who is a very low voiced, I believe, CIS woman.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I've met her in person and she. Anyway. But she has never come out as anything other than a CIS woman. And her voice is also gorgeous. And I was like, this is another way to be a woman. She also was like, I want to be so much thinner than I am. I feel like I'm too fat. I'm like, welcome to it. Just like every other woman.

[A]

Welcome to being a woman.

[B]

So I feel like if you're trans and, like, you're just like.

[A]

And she had learned from being a.

[B]

Woman the things that a woman should be.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And because she's trans and she wanted to be more to appear and to perform. Her femininity.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

100% all the way.

[A]

Yeah. She felt like she had to go.

[B]

I'm like, there's so many more ways to be a woman.

[A]

One of the things I like about Will and Harper is that Harper is making a choice right now not to change her voice. That, like, her voice is the voice of a woman because she is a woman.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And this is what her voice sounds like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, I mean, we're gonna end up talking about this some more. I have to go do therapy.

[B]

Okay. Well, I feel like we hit all the. All the points we wanted to hit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Except that I think I'm gonna go by they. Them pronouns from now on.

[A]

Okay. And I'm gonna work really hard. The podcast is gonna get to hear all the ways that I fuck that up after 47 and a half years.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

So, yeah. You get to learn that it's okay to make mistakes by seeing me make mistakes and being forgiven. Begrudgingly.

[B]

Not begrudgingly. Because I know how hard it is.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

People are still listening to this, and I'm amazed and actually feel very good about this opportunity.

[B]

Good. Next week, we'll talk about Polyvagal Theory 101.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Bye. Even though we're both technically Dr. Dagowski.

[B]

Even though we're both technically Dr. Nagolski.