Introduction to Dr. Donna Oriowo

Summary

Feminist Survival Project: Introduction to Dr. Donna Oriolo

Episode Release Date: June 19, 2025

In the inaugural episode titled "Introduction to Dr. Donna Oriolo," hosts Emily and Amelia Nagoski engage in a profound conversation with Dr. Donna Oriolo, a respected sex and relationship therapist and the author of Drink Water, Mama, Mind Your Business. The episode delves into themes of systemic oppression, self-esteem, authenticity, and the societal pressures that contribute to burnout, particularly among feminists feeling overwhelmed by their responsibilities.

1. Introducing Dr. Donna Oriolo

The episode begins with Emily facilitating a personal introduction, allowing Dr. Oriolo to present herself authentically rather than relying on a scripted bio.

Dr. Donna Oriolo:

"My name is Dr. Donna Oriolo. I use she/her pronouns. I'm the author of Drink Water, Mama, Mind Your Business. I'm a sex and relationship therapist, and I practice in the DMV area." [00:29]

Emily emphasizes the legitimacy of Dr. Oriolo's credentials, highlighting the importance of recognizing the expertise she brings to the conversation.

2. Exploring the Book: Drink Water, Mama, Mind Your Business

The discussion transitions to Dr. Oriolo's book, exploring its origins and the cultural significance of its title. Emily humorously references a moment where Cynthia Erivo uses the book's title in a viral clip, questioning its origins.

Dr. Donna Oriolo:

"It's definitely a thing that Black people say. We've been saying, like, 'mind your business' at various levels, but 'drink water and mind your business' feels a little bit more recent." [02:46]

Emily shares her emotional response to the book, revealing how its powerful message resonated deeply with her, leading to an insightful exploration of its core themes.

Emily:

"Nothing says I love you quite like destroying the system that took root within you." [05:48]

3. Systemic Oppression and Supremacy Culture

A significant portion of the conversation centers on understanding and dismantling supremacy culture. Dr. Oriolo articulates how societal systems indoctrinate individuals to believe they must conform to specific roles to be deemed worthy.

Dr. Donna Oriolo:

"We are planted, watered, fertilized in the idea that somebody is better than you, period... it's your duty to change as much about you as possible to make the white supremacist's head delusion happy." [05:48]

Emily echoes this sentiment, discussing how individuals often sacrifice their authenticity for external validation, highlighting the toxic cycle of competition fostered by systemic oppression.

Emily:

"So basically you lose because I'm willing to sacrifice everything about who I am on the altar of your comfort and convenience." [07:33]

4. Self-Esteem and Authenticity

The dialogue delves into the chasm between one's authentic self and the persona imposed by societal expectations. Dr. Oriolo explains how masking one's true identity leads to deep-seated shame and disconnection from oneself.

Dr. Donna Oriolo:

"Most of us are walking around basically as somebody's narcissistic, masturbatory wet dream. We are not ourselves." [26:34]

Emily relates this to her work on burnout, emphasizing the struggle to bridge the gap between who one is and who they are expected to be.

Emily:

"There's a gap between who you are and who you are expected to be... navigate that gap and pretend that you actually already fully are the thing you're expected to be." [24:20]

5. Impact on Personal Well-being

The conversation shifts to the tangible effects of systemic pressures on mental and physical health. Dr. Oriolo shares personal anecdotes illustrating how chronic stress from oppressive environments can manifest in severe health issues.

Dr. Donna Oriolo:

"I went to my doctor and he said, 'You need to choose. Choose the job or your health.' And when I left that job, my body returned to normal." [55:04]

Emily supplements this with her own experiences, underscoring the importance of setting boundaries to preserve one's well-being.

Emily:

"I took one medication six months out of the year, two medications for 12 months... my whole life is defined by whether or not I can sleep as a result of perimenopause." [35:22]

6. Promoting Drink Water, Mama, Mind Your Business

In promoting her book, Dr. Oriolo outlines its intended audience and the resources available to readers. She emphasizes the book's relevance to anyone impacted by supremacy culture, offering free resources to democratize access to information.

Dr. Donna Oriolo:

"This book is for anyone who has been told that self-esteem is a personal problem... impacted by supremacy culture." [16:01]

Emily advocates for supporting the book through various means, highlighting the importance of community and collective responsibility in fostering change.

Emily:

"If your library doesn't have it, please ask them to carry your book... request it from your local library." [43:32]

7. Building Community and Accountability

The hosts and Dr. Oriolo discuss the importance of community support in navigating personal and societal challenges. Dr. Oriolo differentiates between responsibility and accountability, urging listeners to define clear goals and take actionable steps toward change.

Dr. Donna Oriolo:

"Responsibility is task-oriented. Accountability is outcome-oriented... define what you want." [21:05]

Emily reinforces this by sharing strategies for sustainable self-improvement and the significance of collective effort.

Emily:

"Run as fast as you can today and also the three days after that. It's about what's sustainable over time." [85:00]

8. Embracing Authenticity and Overcoming Shame

The episode concludes with a powerful affirmation of self-worth and the importance of embracing one's true self despite societal pressures. Dr. Oriolo emphasizes that everyone's value is inherent and not contingent upon external validation.

Dr. Donna Oriolo:

"Other people may have more than you, but they're not worth more than you." [51:10]

Emily adds a final note on the significance of self-acceptance and the ongoing journey towards personal authenticity.

Emily:

"Your best is what it was today. And that was what you had. It was your best." [85:21]

Conclusion

"Introduction to Dr. Donna Oriolo" serves as a compelling entry into the Feminist Survival Project, setting the stage for future discussions on navigating and overcoming the myriad challenges faced by feminists today. Through candid dialogue and profound insights, Emily, Amelia, and Dr. Oriolo inspire listeners to embrace their authentic selves, challenge oppressive systems, and build supportive communities.

Key Takeaways:

• Systemic oppression ingrains beliefs that undermine self-worth and authenticity.
• Authenticity requires setting boundaries and prioritizing personal well-being.
• Collective responsibility and community support are essential for meaningful change.
• Drink Water, Mama, Mind Your Business offers valuable resources for those impacted by supremacy culture.

Notable Quotes:

• "Nothing says I love you quite like destroying the system that took root within you." – Emily [05:48]
• "We are planted, watered, fertilized in the idea that somebody is better than you, period." – Dr. Donna Oriolo [05:48]
• "Other people may have more than you, but they're not worth more than you." – Dr. Donna Oriolo [51:10]
• "Your best is what it was today. And that was what you had. It was your best." – Emily [85:21]

Listeners are encouraged to engage with Dr. Oriolo's work by obtaining her book, participating in reading groups, and accessing free resources available at drinkwaterbook.com.

Transcript

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Ah.

[Emily]

Things before we start one. I'm just gonna have you introduce you to people so that I don't have to read your bio. Because I think I have been a guest on many people's podcasts and I wish they would just be like, what would you like people to know about you name pronouns? What would you like? What are the parts of your bio that you feel like are relevant?

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

My name is Dr. Donna Oriolo. I use she. Her Dr. Goddess series pronouns. I'm the author of drink water, mama business.

[Emily]

Yes, you are.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

I don't know what else anyone who wouldn't know. I mean, I'm a sex and relationship therapist.

[Emily]

Yeah. With like an actual like all the way education degrees. The doctor is not fake at all. Like, it's not even a little bit.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

And I practice therapy in the DMV area.

[Emily]

Yeah, DMV for people who don't live in that area.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Oh, yeah. Because I don't live at the Department of Motor Vehicles. I live in the D.C. maryland and Virginia area. Except that it is a very specific area. It is the metro area. If the metro don't go, then it doesn't count. Baltimore is not the dmv. Baltimore is Baltimore.

[Emily]

There's a lot of people who introduce themselves as from the tri state. And I'm like, which three states? Because I grew up in the New Jersey, Philadelphia, Delaware, Tri State. Like, Philadelphia is a state, which it kind of is. But yeah, when people talk about their geography, it's very funny how localized they get. So.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yes.

[Emily]

So you're a therapist.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yes.

[Emily]

Hello. This is the feminist survival Project. This is the Emily one. With me today, instead of Emelia is Dr. Donna Oriol, who you just heard introduce herself as the author of the recently published drink water and mind your business. Let me just say that very recently, Cynthia Erivo recently looked into a camera and said the phrase, drink water and mind your business. If Rich can find it, I'm going to have him insert the clip of her saying that in response to which I'm going to reveal myself. So my identity in terms of racial politics in America is white lady who tries. So I'm going to risk that identity by saying, is that. Is drink water and mind your business the thing black people say?

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yup.

[Emily]

Okay. Which makes it an awesome title for a book.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

It's definitely a thing that black people say. I mean, we've been saying, like, mind. Various levels of mind your business have been out there, but like, drink water and mind your business. That feels a little bit more recent, but a little bit More recent, as in, like, the last, I don't know, five, 10 years? I have no idea. Time is fake.

[Emily]

Time. Time fully is a construct. Here's my whiteness. So Douglas Adams, the sci fi author, had his alien Ford Prefect say, time is an illusion. Lunch time, doubly so. So when I say lunchtime, doubly so. What I mean is that's. That's a. That's a Douglas Adams reference. And I apologize for the intense nerdiness of that reference.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

I don't even have to know. Just be nerdy and tell me what it is. I'm. I'm ready to come on the journey.

[Emily]

I. So I read the Hitchhiker books, the original trilogy, but I was in, like, sixth grade. I'm 48. Are we the same? We're like, no, you're younger than I am. You're like 10 years younger than I am.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

30. Something I round up. So I usually just say, I'm 40.

[Emily]

Okay. Yeah.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

And I say, give or take. My family doesn't.

[Emily]

Like, I'm at the state of rounding up to 50. So I read the Hitchhiker books when I was in the sixth grade, at which point I did not understand that a Ford Prefect was a car and that a prefect was like, a position that you had at a private school. I didn't understand any of that. I just thought it was funny. Time is an illusion. Lunchtime, doubly so. And here you are saying the same thing. Lo these.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Time is fake.

[Emily]

40, 35 years later, it's the same thing. So I got to read your book, like, last fall. And where I would like to start in Talking with you, Dr. Donna Arrillowo, is with. When I blurbed your book, I did that by quoting you back to you.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yeah, I was just like, oh, who said that?

[Emily]

I wrote it. I typed it in all caps. So this is a sentence from your book that I typed in all packs. I'm going to lean away from my microphone and yell it. Nothing says I love you quite like destroying the system that took root within you. To which my only commentary in that email was, how dare you? And I will say to you now, why didn't you just punch me in the face? Why don't you just punch me in the face if you're gonna write that sentence and then send me the book so I can read it? Like you're like, here, read this. Instead of me punching you in the face, can you talk to us a little about what that sentence means?

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Oh, gosh. I feel like from when I wrote it to now, maybe the evolution of it has changed or maybe it has rooted differently within me. But we are, we're planted, watered, fertilized in the idea that somebody is better than you, Period. The system is to say that you, the individual, are not that awesome, you're not that great, you're not that important. And. And as a matter of fact, you're such a small, a small speck in the big cog of this machine that the only way for you to level up is to be exactly who we tell you to be. Be the right type of woman, to be the right type of man, to express your sexuality in the right type of way. And if you are a person of color, if you had the misfortune to be born with female genitals, that you are already less than and that you will never be equal to. So it is your job, your duty and your responsibility to change as much about you as possible in order to make the white supremacist's head delusion happy. So basically become a pick me. Pick me. Choose me, Love me. Your whole life becomes about being selected. And people think that when I say that I'm talking about romantic relationships and I am not. I'm also talking about pick me for this job, Pick me to be seen as your mommy. Exactly. Pick me for worthiness, Pick me for humanity, friendship, everything.

[Emily]

So basically you lose because I'm willing to sacrifice everything about who I am on the altar of your comfort and convenience.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yes.

[Emily]

And you don't even have to thank me for it. You didn't even have to recognize that I sacrificed something.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Nope. Because the sacrifice is required.

[Emily]

All you have to do is pick me again next time. Then I know that I did it. Right. Right. Sacrifice is just like what I'm here for.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Exactly. So like sacrifice in the way that most people would talk about it is like a conscious thought on your part to give up pieces of yourself in order for someone else to be able to live.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Or to have livelihood in the way that like people talk about, like parents making sacrifices so that their children can have a better life than that. Except in this case, you are the child and it is your job to sacrifice pieces of who you are, to mortgage them in order for them to be more comfortable with who they are. Because you stop competing. Yeah, because you. And even, even though it doesn't necessarily need to be a head to head competition, because really it is a collaboration, they've created a system of competition. They have indoctrinated you into this system of competition and then said you are the lowest of the low. Prove yourself to me, and I will succeed about selecting you to be considered a worthy, worthwhile human being. That maybe I will let you have more things. And then you will think that having more things means that you are a better person.

[Emily]

Have you watched Andor?

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

I have not.

[Emily]

Andor on Disney is the prequel to Rogue One.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Star wars stuff.

[Emily]

It's Star Wars.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

I've only seen two Star wars movies ever.

[Emily]

Oh, my God.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

I know, I know.

[Emily]

I don't know if you have Disney plus, but if you have Disney plus, I have access. Access is all you need. Andor is a prequel to Rogue one released in 2016, which is the Star wars movie that is explicitly about the origins of the Rebellion. And Andor is a prequel is about the origins of the origins of the Rebellion.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Of the Origin. This is very meta. Origins of the origin.

[Emily]

Super pickety meta. And like, the joke people were making in 2017 after Rogue One had been released is, oh, the reason there's no brown people in the first three Star wars movies is they all die in Rogue One.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

I swear that that is like, somebody's, like, that feels like white supremacist delusions. Wet dream. This idea that black people simply just don't exist. We exist in every iteration of everything. Get over it. Go be upset.

[Emily]

Yeah, right. That's the thing. They had to find a way to sort of compensate for the 1977 movie, and it was to put, like, all the black and brown people into the movie that was released in 2016 and have it end with that. Spoilers for a movie released nine years ago, for which I apologize. It had to be all of them dying all at once. Here's the reason why we didn't meet any of them in 1977 is because in the year Emily was born, they all died. They all sacrificed everything there is to sacrifice. The reason it came to mind is because we're talking about sacrifice. And there's a lot of themes in the Origin of Rebellion in, like, who gets sacrificed and how and why.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yes.

[Emily]

And Andor as a. There's two series. It's two seasons, which is deliberately, vastly more diverse than the other seasons. And it is about, like, the foundations of where the rebellion that we meet with Luke Skywalker is built on the backs of the brown and black people of the galaxy a long, long time ago, far, far away.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

That sounds sad.

[Emily]

It's intense. It is intense. Like, there's no way around the fact that it's intense. One of the things that they do really well so As a fellow sex educator and even more so as a sex therapist, you will recognize when I talk about that fascism over the last hundred years, universally, no matter where on the earth we are talking about in the last hundred years, if we're talking about fascism, autocracy and dictatorships like we're talking about in 2025, I don't think you're going to disagree with me there. It's about white supremacist, hetero. It's not even, it's not even necessarily white supremacist because if we're in Rwanda, it's this tribe over that tribe, Hutu, Tutitua. Like which tribe is oppressing which tribe? So it's not even necessarily white supremacist, but it is CIS heteropatriarchal every single time. It is women on the chalkin block.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And in Andor. The reason I brought up this whole conversation about Andor is because we meet a woman of the empire. She is like raised in the empire. She is fully brainwashed. She's willing to sacrifice everything she has in the name of the empire. She's willing to sacrifice her own love interest and relationship on the altar of the empire. Everything. Do you want to guess how that story ends for her?

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Not well. I'm going to guess. I'm going to say that she. Not.

[Emily]

Not well. She. She ends up in. In prison with no way out. Spoiler for Andor. Just watch. Andor. It's really. It doesn't. You will love it knowing ahead of time that things end badly for Dedra. Yeah. So given that this is like. Cuz you wrote the book before last year's election.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Right. I read it. Oh.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

It's been like written and done for a little bit.

[Emily]

Done. And all that has happened in the last little bit in the last year or so since you finished writing it. I read it in December after the election had happened. But you had finished writing it before then. All that has happened is that the world has gotten more crystal clear in its priorities in minimizing opportunities and access to well being for black women in particular in America.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Which like is grotesque and fully predictable because of the nature of fascism itself is inherently CIS heteropatriarchal. And in America it is always going to be white supremacist.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yeah.

[Emily]

I don't want to, I don't want to shock you. Shock me? I'm white.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

What?

[Emily]

That's my, that's my shocking statement, twin. I know. It's always been true. I don't like to talk about it. Wait, I'm gonna change. I'm gonna change glasses. Oh, yes, your publisher sent me these. They are the glasses on the COVID of your book.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

I had mine, but I can't see. So.

[Emily]

Yeah, no, I can't see. I'm going to have to change back out of them immediately because just the blurriness is kind of making me dizzy. And that's not great. But yeah, it sent me. They sent me the glasses. So as a white lady, I was like, why? Why am I reading this book? Why are you interested in my opinion of this book? Like, it's not for me. And I sobbed, like, had to close the book and pause for a big chunk of time to, like, process my feelings. Even as, like a white lady, I'm not your target audience. So can you talk to us about who the book is for and why now? Anybody should read it.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Goodness. This book is for anyone who has been told that self esteem is a personal problem. Oh. That having it or not having it is a personal failure. That you aren't good enough with no roadmap on how to get better. It's for anyone who is impacted by supremacy culture. And I mean white supremacy, male supremacy, heterosexist supremacy, able bodied supremacy. Pick your supremacy. If you have been impacted, this book is very likely for you. It may not spell it out directly to you because I am very much talking to black women.

[Emily]

Yeah. Anybody smart enough is able to translate a book that is not for them into language that is for them.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Because women have been doing that forever for books that were written for men. Yep. People of color have been doing that forever for books that were written for a white audience.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Exactly. So it's like, just do the extra step. Do your thing.

[Emily]

Just do the little bit of extra step. If you're a white woman listening to this and anyone who is. So Emelia and I first began making. You know, I don't think you've ever met my twin, Emelia. Their agender identifies with she. They pronouns. So just to like, let you know what pronouns I'm going to use, I'm going to use the word twin instead of sister. Anyone who. The reason we began this podcast back in 2019 was because we thought 2020 is going to be a really hard year and we want to make like.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

You knew in 2018 that 2020 would be. Who told you?

[Emily]

I knew in the fall of 2019 that 2020 was going to be hard. So we started the podcast one year out from the 2020 election. We didn't know there was going to be a pandemic. We did not know.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

In a poster fire.

[Emily]

We didn't. We didn't know how bad it. We were honestly, like, our optimistic thinking was, like, there might be a woman candidate for president, and that's going to be really hard for a lot of people, and we want to be there to help them. And we ended the podcast, as we had always intended, in November of 2020, and we had not intended to restart the project, the. The podcast. But then after the election, Amelia was like, we have to start the podcast again. No, we have to. We have to start the podcast again. I was like, I'm not ready. I'm not ready. I'm too stressed out. I'm not ready. And Amelia was like, but the world is ready, but people, like, need help dealing with what's coming. And I was like, I know. So, yeah, there was this musical about a pub in New York City right around the Civil War that was run by free black people. New York City that was both black people and especially Irish people. This musical made about how this pub was set on fire by people who were angry about the outbreak of the Civil War. And right toward the climax of the show, there is a song called Stronger Than the Fire. We're stronger than the fire. And I say let it burn.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Let it burn.

[Emily]

Let it burn.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Let it burn.

[Emily]

Let it burn. Let it burn. I think the title of the song is actually Let It Burn, but we named the title of the episode about it Stronger Than the Fire. But it could have been Let It Burn because we always, like, the thing is, like, do you set it on fire? You can't set it on fire because, like, people live there, and the people who live there need somewhere to go. You can't set it on fire as you have somewhere for them to go.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

But.

[Emily]

But what happened with the 2024 election and with the 2025 inauguration was it no longer became a choice. It was on fire. Somebody else set it on fire.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

I think we're still in it.

[Emily]

And all we had was the reality that it's been set on fire. So we need to be. We're stronger than the fire. Every resource in the world that we can help people to access within themselves and in their faith, family, and in their community, to help them be stronger than the fire that we are all sitting in right now is what this podcast is about.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Oh, I like that. That sounds like community to me, because community is always bigger than whatever. Whatever stuff it is we see outside. It's just a matter of whether or not we're going to take responsibility and accountability, right? Both. Not either or.

[Emily]

How do we do that? No pressure, just solve. Just solve it.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

I think that first we definitely define what it is, right? So like accountability, I think that people get it. People use it like it's interchangeable and it's not. Not really. Responsibility is task oriented. What can you do? What will you do? And accountability is outcome oriented. So what, what you did or did not do that led to what outcome? I think that we are often looking to place blame and I'm just like, okay, we can. Does it move us to where we want to go? Does it get us any closer? I'm not saying, don't say that. Hey, you're to blame. If you want to say it, say it. But also now, what are we all going to do? What is our individual and collective responsibility to get us to a different outcome? And for me, part of the problem that I see is that no one is defining what we're going to do. They're saying, we don't want to be like this right away is not a destination. I want to go, oh, I don't want to be like my mom. I don't want to be like my dad. I don't want to be. I don't like this government the way it is. Okay, noted. What do you want? Like, what do you want? What do you want? I mean, like to take it back to that movie, right? And I'm just like, you've got to say what it is that you want. A way is not a destination. And your brain doesn't even process it the same way. All those don't knows, like when you tell a kid, don't touch that. All they really heard was touch that.

[Emily]

Yep.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Right. Instead you want to give them something else. Like, here, you can play with this. It redirects their focus and you are not redi. You're not redirecting your focus by saying, I don't want to be like mom, dad, uncle, aunt, this government, whatever. That's not enough. What do you want so that you can actually switch your focus. Instead of running away, you're running towards.

[Emily]

Towards something. It's not what you're fighting against, it's what you're fighting for. It's another Star wars reference.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Star wars got it right. Then Star wars definitely got it right. I think that we get stuck in trying to make things be not like that, but we haven't defined what we actually want it to be. I think that that's where we start. We start with saying what we Call a spade a damn spade and say what it is that we want. Yeah, like, stop saying that. Like, I mean, it's like saying, I don't want to eat chicken. Okay, what the fuck do you want to eat then?

[Emily]

There's so many things to eat that aren't chicken.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Exactly. And if. If that's all you've got to say, like, oh, I want to go on a trip. I just don't want to be in Maryland. Well, where the fuck do you want to be? Because I can take you over the border across the street to D.C. or I can get you on a plane and fly you to Fiji. Those are not the same thing. What kind of experience are you looking for? I think that we have, number one, not defined that for ourselves because a lot of us have had choices ripped from us as children. We have not been able to learn ourselves. And no self concept, no self esteem. If you don't know you, you cannot like you. And I know that somebody right now is probably feeling a little bit hurting they feeling. So let me. Let me. Let me tell you what it is that you're probably liking. What you're liking is what someone else told you you should be.

[Emily]

Yes.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

And if you have been successful in dressing up in the vestiges of what they wanted for you, then you like those pieces. But it doesn't mean that those pieces are yours, that it belongs to you, or that it is you. So you have esteem in what you have pretended to be. So you have esteem in your acting skills. That doesn't mean that you esteem yourself.

[Emily]

Yep.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Because if you don't know you, it's very difficult to like you. How can you do it? You.

[Emily]

You.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

You don't even know. You don't even know that person.

[Emily]

You don't even know. So the simple version of this for me is when in Burnout, Amelia and I write about, there's a gap between who you are and who you are expected to be you and expected you. And there's this chasm. And you're supposed to be able to, like, navigate that gap and pretend that you actually already fully are the thing you're expected to be, while also simultaneously working forever to try to be the thing people have told you you are supposed to be.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yep.

[Emily]

And like, God forbid you let the mask drop for a second and just be who you actually are, because then people will know who you truly are. Yes.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

And then you would be judged on that. You would see whether or not people like that. And I think that for some of us, that's Too vulnerable. Right. If you can, if you continue to pretend to be that which other people have given you, then if they don't like that, you know it's not really you, right. It doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt because really they're saying that your acting skills suck. So it's like, damn, now let me, let me do better about that. Right? Let me hide these other pieces of myself. Shame and cover it up with more bravado and more of the trappings of what I am expected to be. And while you're busy doing that, you're still denying yourself. So you still, you end up having like deep seated shame. Not guilt, shame, specifically shame. Because you are not doing a good enough job and at being the expected as opposed to being who you are. So, I mean, I like to say that most of us are walking around basically as somebody's narcissistic, masturbatory wet dream.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

We are not ourselves. We have our. We are busy. Our hands are full of what parents wanted us to be, of what friends think we should be, of what all these people, society included, have told us that we are supposed to be and the limits that they have placed on how far we can go in what we are doing.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

So you will feel disconnected from yourself. You're disembodied. It's hard to have pleasure when you're not even in there.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

So your orgasm suck. The relationships feel like they are only so. So everything feels fraught because it is. Because it's not you.

[Emily]

Because one, you, you're pretending to be the sexual person you were always still. I'm a sex educator. Donna obviously is a sex therapist. And like, yeah, underpinning everything we talk about is always your sexual experience. If the sex you have means that you're always pretending to be the sexual person you think you are supposed to be having the sexual experiences you think you're supposed to have. You're putting on a show, a performance so that your partner's expectations are met. Instead of actually thinking about your own internal experience, experience your own sensations of what's happening right now as opposed to just like, just what? What is it supposed to look like? How is this supposed to seem? How are other people's needs being met in this moment as opposed to like what actually works for me? Like, of course you're, of course the sex you're having is not going to be sex you are interested in having for any reason beyond like getting some external validation of who you believe you are supposed to be, which is in direct contradiction to who you believe you are supposed to be. And every time, you reinforce that narrative of, like, see, this person likes who I pretended to be, which is all the more reason for me to pretend to be that person. So you get more and more trapped. And so I'm sure you've had this client where by the time you get to your 50s and your 60s and your 70s, you're trapped in a narrative of who you're supposed to be, and you've never even experienced it. Experienced pleasure and joy and connection as your true self.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yeah. And even worse, you expect other people to pretend the way that you do. Oh, if you should have offspring, you teach them what you learned, which is to put themselves aside. If you have brothers and sisters, if you have friends, family members, you will look at them being themselves, and you will discourage it. You will be the hater that they are talking about.

[Emily]

We literally had that conversation in high school. Like, I have a twi. I have an identical. An identical age sibling. So we're both in high school. And, like, a thing that was for sure true about me in high school, I don't know about you, but I was. I was a lot. I was like, big. I experienced emotions at a large scale. This is not a new thing for me. This has always been true, is that I am like, I am loud. I feel my feelings at a large scale. And Amelia was a very good girl. They behaved themselves and followed the rules. And one day in, like, 10th or 11th grade, we were still sharing a bedroom, and they were like, you can't just feel your feelings. And I was like, yes, I can. And Amelia's response was fully just like, no, it's against the rules. You are not allowed to make other people uncomfortable with your feelings. And we had this fundamental disagreement about, like, whether or not a person is allowed to be 100% of who they are. And I like. The lesson I had to learn over the next, like, 10 years was like, there's a time and a place to be who you truly are around the people who welcome who you truly are. And, like, there are times and places where who you truly are. Like, that is not the time and place to be 100% of who you are. The checkout at the grocery store, Just be nice. Just make that, like, the person working at the checkout is probably having a hard day, because that's a hard job. Just. Just. Just put on a mask and be nice. Right? And there needs to be a place where people can go where they know that they can be 100% of them true selves. So that it's about recognizing the people and the places where who you truly are is welcome so that you can learn from those people that who you truly are is someone worth being. Does that make sense?

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

It does make sense. I think the part that makes me sad, though, is the part where most of us spend most of our time in spaces where we are not going to be allowed to be ourselves. So you spend most of your day disembodied because you're working a job that does not really want you there. And not. Not your full self, not who you are authentically. So you have to be a version of yourself. And that masking, like, between the masking and the code switching, all of these things can just increase anxiety. And I think that part of the problem that I see is not necessarily that people, like, I don't know that there's a problem with being yourself. I think the problem is that we have decided that the niceties, they supersede the honesty of someone's authentic self. Like, I never aim to be nice. I aim to be kind. Donna's gonna show up as Donna in most places that she's in now, whether or not I'm cussing that day, right? Like, there's some places where you don't cuss. There's some places where maybe, like, I laugh. I still laugh, but I laugh to myself. Like a library, you know, keep it down. Because you don't want to disturb other people. But my whole life can't be about not disturbing other people. Because we are so invested in not disturbing other people, we don't even consider which people are we supposed to not be disturbing, right? And the power that is even at play in that conversation. Like, you dress the way that you dress. You speak the way that you speak. You show up the way that you show up. So that somebody who is already in a position of power doesn't have to be inconvenienced by who you are. Is ridiculous. When I think about science and research, so many things are normalized on white male bodies.

[Emily]

Oh, my God.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

And extrapolated to everybody. Because what we are an inconvenience, and we maintain our silence.

[Emily]

But don't you know that female bodies are just, like, so complicated to study?

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Just like, if you get it with the female bodies, then you can extrapolate it to everybody working in my person. Like, what are you doing?

[Emily]

A body that doesn't menstruate is so much simpler to study. And by a body that does menstruate doesn't menstruate. I do specifically mean, like male bodies.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Ones that have never menstruated, that don't have the hardware. You have to know that like a body doesn't change over the course of a month is so much easier to understand.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yeah. And that makes it so much easier to misunderstand what is going on in anyone else's bodies.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Right. Like male supremacy in that way.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

I don't even think that people understand all the ways that it shows up. Like, have you spent your spring and summer suffering from not being able to breathe? That's because there's tree sperm everywhere and nowhere for it to go. So all of that lovely pollen doesn't have anywhere to go because we don't have fruiting and flowering trees and plants because it's easier to maintain male type trees. I'm just like, so you have to buy the Zyrtec.

[Emily]

Uh huh.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

So you have to buy the Benadryl. So you have to stay inside, cover your nose and suffer and feel like you're dying for weeks at a time because of somebody else's horticultural sexism.

[Emily]

I live in a valley and when I moved here, I transitioned into a life where I have to take allergy drugs literally all year. And I was like, so you're telling me that it is normal to be allergic to the state all year? And my doctor literally said, well, you live in a bowl, a bowl full of pollen.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yeah, apparently.

[Emily]

So I take one medication six months out of the urine, two medications, 12 months, the other six months.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yeah, it's ridiculous.

[Emily]

I'm allergic to the state, quite frankly.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

It's ridiculous. And the thing is insane not to even question it. We're taught not to see it. That's part of the growth.

[Emily]

It's not climate injustice. That's just take a drug.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yes. Right. Like it's, it's capitalism. And like a grotesque artistry to hide the ways in which supremacy culture is present. So that we simply say it is what it is. Which I often reinterpret, you know, like when people say, like, oh, it is what it is, it is what it will be, it's defeatist. So we say it is what it is. We're not just acknowledging what is current, we're talking about what we expect to continue to be. And like, this is why I like Suzanne Collins book Sunrise on the Reaping. Because Haymitch's Boothang is trying to get him to understand that, like, just because every birthday that you've been here, there's been a Reaping doesn't mean that every birthday that you will have moving forward, there will be a reaping. To know what is and to know what is possible is not the same thing. And I think that where, especially where it comes to our self esteem and how that self esteem sort of interacts with the world around us, we do a really great job of talking about it is what it is, as though it is what it will be. It can change. Just because you were dealt a shitty hand, just because you didn't get all the things that you would have liked to get, all the nice accoutrement, does not mean that that's all you're ever gonna have. Ever. Just because your family of origin sometimes is the problem doesn't mean that your chosen family will continue to be the problem.

[Emily]

Right?

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

These things, they're changeable, they're transmutable, they don't have to to stay the same. But if you say it is what it is, rhetoric, then it is what it will be. You've lost before you started.

[Emily]

When Amelia and I were doing an event, we were doing an event at MIT this spring, we actually got asked specifically about the word acceptance because it gets used in mindfulness talk a lot of the time of accepting what is true right now. And it's like for real. Is the ca. James Baldwin wrote about this that you have to like accept. Like, not everything that is accepted can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is accepted. That you have to like recognize what is true in this moment. But just because you've recognized what is true, just because you've accepted the truth of this moment, doesn't mean even a little bit that you've accepted that it can never be changed. But until you recognize what's actually happening.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Right now, you can't do.

[Emily]

Not until that recognition happens can you be like, oh, and I understand, like what the options are for changing it. Like if it's your family of origin, maybe you're never gonna change who you're. The people who raised you, maybe they.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Are who they are, accept their limitation.

[Emily]

And maybe they can still be welcome in your life. Maybe, yeah, that's a decision we each get to make. But that doesn't mean that the people you surround yourself with as a full grown adult now have to be anything like have to recapitulate the dynamic of your family of origin.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Because why are you recapitulating the family dynamic? Right?

[Emily]

That's a real question. Why are you recapitulating your family dynamic? Right?

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Run with both feet or Your wheelchair or your arms, whatever.

[Emily]

You can't run Amelia in their wheelchair. Just be, like, going in the other direction because, like.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Or at the Barely set a boundary, right? Like, understand where someone's limitations may lie and then set the boundaries accordingly. So, like, for what? Like, it took me a while to be able to say, like, okay, I cannot have X conversation with X person.

[Emily]

Right?

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

It's nowhere. It makes me feel shitty. It makes them feel shitty. But I can talk about these other things, and they didn't lose value as a person just because they can't be my everything. Because no one person should be your everything anyway, right? Like, different people feed different parts of you, and that's okay. Let. Let be fed by these various pieces that you get from the community that you surround yourself with. Look for one person to be an entire, you know, Tabernacle Choir. They are one singer in the choir. They're not the whole thing. Mine is Kelly Crumb.

[Emily]

And if that one singer has shown themselves to be not an alto, there's nothing wrong with not being an alto. Let them be a soprano. Yes, they can be that singer. They don't have to be every voice in the choir.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Exactly. And I think that sometimes we're looking for one person to be everything because we have been taught a very. A very, I think, toxic sort of individuality, that the only way to move away from your individuality in that way is to lean onto whoever your romantic partner is going to be. That even your friendships are a temporary happenstance until one meets their one true love. In which case, when you meet this one true love, they will become now your everything. They will be your father, brother, sister, uncle, auntie. They will be your best friend. They will be your child. They'll be your everything.

[Emily]

They're going to meet all the needs you have in the future, as well as all the needs you didn't get met when you were a child. All those needs going to get met by this one person who's going to be able to predict everything that you need before. Before we go on to say other things, because I had to open my library app in order to reserve Sunrise on the Reaping, which is apparently a prequel to the Hunger Games trilogy. That reminds me that my. The Boston Public Library, I have a digital membership in the Boston Public Library does not have copies of Donna's book. So whatever your library is, if they do not have drink water, mind your business. Please ask them to carry your book. If you're the kind of person who has money to buy a book, I have multiple copies of the book already. I can only buy so many, like, truthfully. But so, like, you will 100% be glad that you read this book if you get this book. Did you narrate the audiobook, Tana?

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

I did not. Apparently my voice was unsuitable or they really just wanted to go in a different direction. I have no idea why they chose whatever direction that they chose, but the narrator is a lovely black woman. Okay, I got to choose. And I was just like, yeah, this one right here.

[Emily]

So you like the audiobook? That's the thing that matters.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Well, at least I like the audiobook reader. I don't know, like, being honest. Honestly, I haven't listened to it yet myself, but the samples that I heard, I enjoyed.

[Emily]

You like the narrator. Audiobooks are important to me. So I have asked my library to notify me when they do get copies of the ebook and the audiobook. And when you ask your library to notify you when they get copies, that lets them know that there is demand for this book. So buying the book is great and so helpful from my point of view as an author. Buy the book from wherever. Because buying the copy of the book from wherever is always good for the book. Buy it in the way that suits you. If it's your local bookstore, that's great. If it's Amazon, yeah, it's probably, like, a few dollars less from Amazon. That's probably true. And buy the book from wherever. But it is also really important for support of the book to request it from a local library. That is another thing that if you're like, I don't have $15 right now because, let's face it, in this economy, some people don't. But a way that you can be very supportive of the book and then get to read it for free and be supportive of an author and of a book that you love is to request it from your local library. That is a thing you can do.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

I would really appreciate it because I have a secret goal that is not a secret. Or at least it's not going to be a secret after I tell you my secret goal is to. I would like 5,000 copies of this book in 5,000 hands by the end of the summer. I know that that is large and probably somewhat unrealistic because it is June, but I was just like, you know what? I like to live in Deluland, and I can be as delulu as I want here.

[Emily]

I don't think that's out of reach.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

And I ask if I ask, and everyone takes it as Personal responsibility to say, I will be one to get this book. Then if 5,000 people are like, yeah, I got $20, I'm gonna go get the book. Then go, Matt, but don't just get the book, because that's not the point. I don't want people to just get the book to. For the sake of getting the book, read the book and then put it.

[Emily]

On a shelf and then never read it. Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of people who like, they're like, I purchased the book. That is 100% of the investment that is required of me in order to benefit from this book. It is now sitting on my shelf and therefore I read the. No, no, read the pages. SOB on them like I did.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

And there's free goodies in the book. Right. Like there's a QR code. It will take you to. To get the download. Because I created a workbook companion. Because I don't know about other people. I like writing in my stuff. So I did create a free. It's free.

[Emily]

I had a printed PDF, so like I wrote all over mine. There's like flags on it. Yeah.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

So like you can definitely do that. And I created a free, free membership website sort of thing where I've been having one to one conversations with some other people about how they define self esteem. Because I am an expert. I'm not the expert. I think that a lot of us have expertise and quite frankly, I think that we all talk about the same thing, just in a different way. So for me and my money, I was just like, well, where can I put more resources? And this is where I'm putting the resources. So as I come across things, as I learn more and as I think more about it, I will just be putting it there so that. And again, free. Part of this is me trying to like democratize information so like not have it be all. Like one requires money in order to get it. So even if you don't get the book, you can still get the information.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Drink water book.

[Emily]

Drink water book. That is the easiest thing to spell in the entire world.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Because Oreobo is not that easy.

[Emily]

It is. Yeah. And a nod, right, Is not necessarily intuitive.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

No water.

[Emily]

Totally clever as it is. Drinkwaterbook.com you can get free resources. That is fantastic. The reason Amelia and I, the podcast is 100% free and we like don't take ads and we will never do ads is because we're not trying to make money from this. We're just trying to like help people get access to the resources. They need to survive. What anybody who listens to this must agree is a particularly dark moment in history. And I am absolutely of the opinion that your book is one of the ones that's going to help people provide those tools to stop pretending to be the thing that they have been told their whole lives they are supposed to be. And instead start embracing who they truly are and recognizing that who they are is someone worth being. Even if some of the people around them are never going to agree, who may even feel that, like, if you try to like, love and accept and welcome and embrace who you truly are as someone worth being, that's somehow like, selfish of you or arrogant of you. I mean, I've gotten both of those things.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

I'm just like, selfishness and arrogance are both. Okay.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Like, because Amanda Seal said it, like, who are you? Who else are you supposed to be full of? If you're not full of yourself, who are you supposed to be full of?

[Emily]

Who are you supposed to be full of? Sex joke. I'm not gonna say out loud.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Sometimes the difference between arrogance and confidence is who you're talking to. Right? If someone says that someone like you should not feel this good about themselves, they're going to read you as arrogant every single time.

[Emily]

Yeah, right.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

I'm a dark skinned black girl with blue hair. There are definitely people outside who believe that I should act my skin tone, that I am too dark to think that I'm that cute or that I am too black to think that I'm that smart, that I am something less than I am because of whatever narratives that they have been given and whichever ones that they've decided that they're going to apply, that's number one. Most of that is not my business. What you think about me is entirely your business unless you make it my business. But beyond that, you thinking that I'm arrogant, that's a personal problem.

[Emily]

Yep.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Right. I don't think I like, I'm. I don't, I don't identify as arrogant. It is not to say that I do not take feedback, that I don't hear feedback when it is given, but what I also know is that 100% of people who don't know me can't tell me I'm arrogant.

[Emily]

To have your confidence misconstrued as like, I believe I am better than you. So I recently watched the Extraordinary Attorney Woo on Netflix, which is about an autistic attorney, a lawyer in Korea, and being autistic myself. In the episode where the person who was supervising her at the time Calls her arrogant. Think you know so much, Come in here trying to teach the rest of us. Like, I've heard that, I've heard it so many times. Just because, like, I know things. And I was told my whole life that knowing things is good. Most of my value lies in, like, me knowing things. So for me to come in confidently, enjoy food, like, be like, look, I know a thing, this is what I have to contribute. And then be told, like, how fucking dare you, you arrogant bitch. Coming in here knowing things, trying to teach us something and have it. Be like I'm trying to force something on you. No, like, I have nothing else for you. Like, my knowledge is what I have for you. And now you're telling me even that I'm punishing you. Because I know the thing, that part.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

It'S just identity threat. Right? Because we've also been taught, like, the way that this capitalistic society works is that if you are not the smartest or the best, then you are nothing. So if someone is coming in, teaching you, you, you are feeling like you are nothing because they know something that you do not know. Someone will always know something that you do not know. And your value is not derived from what you know and don't know or what you have and don't have. If you are alive, you have value and your value is equal to everybody else.

[Emily]

They.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Other people may have more than you, but. But they are not worth more than you.

[Emily]

Can you just say that one sentence one more time? And I have had this done to me. Brene Brown, who is a delightful human being, did this to me and I felt away about it, but I'm going to do it to you. Can you just say that thing you said? Can you just say that again?

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Other people may have more than you, but they're not worth more than you.

[Emily]

They are not worth more than you. Work is evil capitalism summarized in one sentence. We're taught that if people have more, they're worth more.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

And we got it way backwards. We're definitely taught that people who have more are worth more and sometimes that they're even smarter. I'm looking like the thing that they were smarter about is stealing. Yeah, sometimes that's what they were smarter about. Some people were smarter about stealing. Some people were smarter about cheating other people. You are not interested in cheating other people. You just want what is yours. So if all you want is what is yours, what you've earned, what you can, you know, to do the things that you can with your hands, with your mind, with your mouth, with Your, with your being, with your body. Then you do those things and you earn what you earn. But I'm just like, I'm not aiming to be anyone's billionaire. Right. I don't think there's such thing as an ethical billionaire. And for anyone who's upset with me, like, go be mad at your mama. I said what I said, go be mad at the billionaires.

[Emily]

There's like seven.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

There should be no time ever where the wealth is concentrated into so few people and everybody else is told to fight it out, Duke it out. Mm, mm. No. I miss choice. That's what I miss. I miss choice. I miss when Sprint was Sprint and T Mobile was T Mobile and Singular was Singular. I miss when Nextel existed and was not absorbed into Sprint. Like, I, like, I missed that there used to be like multiple cable companies companies and you can just pick the one that you want. That where people had to compete. Yeah, I missed Choice. And now we have pseudo choices. Like if you have Disney plus, then you also have Hulu, baby. It's owned by the same company.

[Emily]

By the same company.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Right. And like, so I, I miss, I miss choice. I miss. What I don't like is the, the sort of coming together of all these conglomerates to make a super conglomerate, where then they use their power and money and influence to change all of our lives. I don't like that.

[Emily]

When Come as you are was first published a mere 11 years ago. It was the big five publishers. We are now down. I think it might be the big three. What, in just 11 years, like that much consolidation has happened.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yeah.

[Emily]

But on those occasions when I had been called arrogant and when I saw that experience represented in extraordinary attorney Wu, it wasn't even just about like, I want to be recognized for what I have. It's like my knowledge is my way of being of service. And you're telling me now that if I try to be of service, I can't do that without being selfish, without being self serving. Like what? Like I try to figure out when.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

We got to a place where people couldn't do both. Right. Like, yeah, like I am. I'm a therapist. The work that I do as a therapist, I believe it is valuable work.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

And I also like to eat.

[Emily]

Right.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Right. And I feel like sometimes people are, they try to tell me like, oh, well, it shouldn't cost what it costs. I, I'm like, it's not just that it shouldn't cost what it costs, but really I'm like, you're talking about a systemic problem and you're, you're making me the, the scapegoat.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Right, so it's like, so it shouldn't cost what it costs. What would you prefer I charge? And do you understand what therapy does to the therapist?

[Emily]

Right, right.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Because something that people don't know. So like just a little like, haha, just in case you didn't know this, black women therapists who are number one, you're dealing with racism, you're dealing with misogyny, you're dealing with misogynoir. So you're dealing with all of these things just by inhabiting your body. Not to mention whether or not you're fat, dark skin or light skin, what, what texture hair you have, whether or not you're straight, whether or not you're trans. All of these things are already happening in your individual body. But as a therapist, your job is to be there and hold space with other people, right? Apparently a lot of us end up with chronic illnesses.

[Emily]

How could it. Oh wait, it's the chronic stress suppressing your immune functioning.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Huh?

[Emily]

Huh? It's, it's the lupus, it's, it's the endometriosis.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Like so many people end up developing these other issues. And there's the one in the hospital right now, right? Another one who developed lupus. And when the doctor was looking was like, it could have been your job because of how much stress you were under constantly and consistently.

[Emily]

The phrase just stress drives me nuts.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

My body doesn't behave the way it's supposed to, right? Like my blood does not blood the way that blood is supposed to be blooding. So, so I am chronically tired. I'm chronically tired. I don't have any fucking iron. This is with iron supplements. I take, I take iron supplements every day, 150 milligrams, not 30. It's not, you know, not that little stuff, that big girl stuff. And change my diet to include more iron rich foods, more vitamin C, more whatever, whatever. I go to bed at a reasonable time. I don't wake up too early and I'm still chronically tired. How difficult it is to hold other people's stuff in this world, the one that's outside right now under this administration with being black and all the other stuff, right? Adding it together and holding space for others, it is a recipe like, this may be a TMI moment, but when I was working for the state, not the state of Maryland as a social worker, I was under so much stress that my body produced clear poop. Have you ever heard of someone having clear Poop. I went to my doctor because I was just like, well, that can't be right. And at the time, my doctor, the best doctor, Dr. Bonavente, who is now retired, he sat me down and he's like. He ran the test and he was just like, I think you're gonna need to choose. You or this job. You're gonna have to choose because there is no reason this should be happening. And we have run every test. We've done ultrasounds, They've taken blood. They looked at this, they looked at that. And he was just like, it's not the commute to work. At least not only the commute to work, it's what's happening while you're there. Your body is not processing this stress well. You need to choose. When I left that job, my body returned to normal.

[Emily]

So the thing I think of is when I had a colonoscopy and I had to take boatloads of laxatives, and by the end of it, I was basically pooping water. That's what I think of when I think clear poop. Is that what you're talking about? Something like that?

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

No, it was. I don't know what the hell happened. I really do not know. It happened then, and it was consistently happening until I left that job.

[Emily]

But obviously your body was not functioning.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

I left that job. I got a new job. The problem went away when the new job that I went to started to also stress me out. And I was just like, this feels. Feels familiar. I left that job. And so I let my.

[Emily]

Do you have the wisdom to be like, I recognize what this feels like. And you didn't have to wait to see a cue, like, clear fucking poop to be like, I know what this is.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Sometimes you do not need to fuck around and find out. Sometimes you. You learn from the wisdom of the times before and choose a different course.

[Emily]

I fucked around that one time. I found out. So next time I don't have to wait for the fucking around. I can just be like, and I'm gone now.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Exactly. I learned how to set better boundaries. I learned how to communicate better. I changed my self talk as well. Like, it was a. There was a lot of work that needed to happen. But I remember at that time, all I did was work. All I did was work. And the thing is, they thought I didn't work enough. They said I was not a team player. Like, you're unwilling to come early and leave late. I'm like, I'm unwilling to come any earlier or leave any later. I get to work at 7.

[Emily]

God.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

I work from, like, at the time. I think I worked from, like, seven to seven. I don't want to come any earlier, and I'm not leaving any later.

[Emily]

So when I. You've probably heard the, like, whole can't pour from an empty cup kind of thing. Yeah, like, cool, right? And like, some people are told that when they have an empty cup and they, like, maybe talk about how empty their cup is, what they get told is not, oh, let me put some water in that for you. But rather, like, well, what are you doing with that cup? There's no water in any way. Why don't you give your cup to Jared over there?

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Who needs an extra cup?

[Emily]

Who. Only who.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Who?

[Emily]

Like, he could actually put. He has all this extra water. He could put water in that cup. Why don't you give your cup to, like, I guess good for you that you're, like, protecting your boundaries and, like, protecting your peace by keeping your empty cup. Good for you. But, like, Jared could really use that cup.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

And it always just sounds so damn.

[Emily]

Ridiculous, but the person who's saying it in real life 100% believes it. Word.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

It's the difference between the individual and the system. So people will blame the individual for, like, it's easy to blame me and say, you're the problem. You're the reason. You had your clear poop. Instead of a work culture that says that the only way that I will not be on a performance improvement plan is if I get there early for free and work late. For free.

[Emily]

For free.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Right. That you're supposed to have a working lunch, that you. You. That I know that the building doesn't have heat today. It doesn't mean you shouldn't come. Right.

[Emily]

But also, the people who have less are worth less. So accept less so you can be worth more. Wait, oh, wait. Like.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Like, I even remember that there was a rumor at the time that was saying. Because at some point, I was just like, yeah, I'm not doing this anymore. They were like, donna's difficult to work with.

[Emily]

Right.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

And my supervisor went on maternity leave.

[Emily]

Let the record show Dunn is one of the most delightful human beings on earth.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yes. So I had a new supervisor, and I remember her being surprised that I was not difficult to work with. She was just like, oh, you're actually quite reasonable. I was like, what does that mean? Like, oh, I was told that you were difficult to work with. I was like, in what way? They said that you never. You're not willing to compromise on time. I was just like, I'm not willing to compromise myself for your time. Y' all should have hired more people, not put more work on one person. I'm like, I had people that I'm supposed to see in, like, North Carolina. I'm driving from D.C. to North Carolina like, once or twice a month. I'm like, that's a lot. I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, I left the office at, like. I got to the office so I could take the company car at, like, 6 to drive to North Carolina so I could be back and beat traffic. I'm like, are you be so fucking for real? I'm like, so was it me, the individual, or was it the toxic expectation of work culture?

[Emily]

And people like us are very, very fortunate to know, like, what kind of work feeds our souls, what we're here on earth to do, what our purpose is, and how extraordinary that we get to do work that both provides a paycheck and helps us to feel like there is purpose and meaning in our lives, because not everybody has that. And at the same time, the kind of work we do tends to be the kind of work where they expect you to sacrifice your whole physical self on the altar of service to others.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yeah. And I'm not doing it. I have business to mind. I have water to drink. I have to be able to take care of myself. And I think that so many of us have been taught how to be in service, but we haven't considered what we're in service to. We're in service to the white supremacist capitalistic delusion which most of us will never be able to enter into in any real way. They sold you the promise. They sold you the dream that if you do good work, that you, too, could change your tax bracket. The thing is, you're more likely to die in the same tax bracket you were born into.

[Emily]

That's even more true now than it was 50 years ago.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yeah. But somehow we all believe that we should protect the rich, because one day we'll be them.

[Emily]

One day we could be them.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

I'm like, so one day. You talk about feeling exploited, and your goal is to be an exploiter. Like, that's the goal.

[Emily]

Is that the goal?

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

For some people, it is.

[Emily]

It's not.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

They like the idea that they can get something.

[Emily]

Sure. When you've been punished all your life, there is going to be a part of you that wants to punish somebody else. Yeah.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

You want to hate. You want to haze.

[Emily]

Yeah. I had to behave myself. I had to pretend for so many years. To be somebody I wasn't. And now here you come with your blue hair trying to be like, it's perfectly acceptable and permissible for me to be who I am right here in front of you. And how dare you? Yeah. No, I don't relate at all. This isn't at all why I sobbed over the pages of your book printed out from a PDF. Nothing says I love you like uprooting the system that was planted in you years ago.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yeah. I want people to uproot that system.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Because, number one, I'm like, I'm so excited to meet who you actually are. I am excited. I'm excited by the prospect. Right. Like, one of my sisters is. She's overly friendly, and it used to drive me nuts until I learned that she doesn't have to be me. She can just be her and that I can appreciate how friendly she is with other people. Another one is a cynic. She's everything. And, you know, I'm just like, I kind of like it. Right? Like, I like it. I like this version of her. Now, does that mean that I can always be with super friendly, super cynic? No, it just means that I can appreciate who they are and that they don't have to be me in order to be loved by me or to be appreciated by me. I want to be able to meet them, not the version of them that they feel that they must put in order to be in my presence. I'm like, how many of us know the people who are in our lives? Are they dressed up in the cloak of your expectations, or are they being themselves?

[Emily]

Wait, do you mean this isn't just about how we can finally receive enough love to feel nourished, but also how we can love the people we love so that they, too, feel loved enough to feel fully nourished? Yeah.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

One person doing something, I'm like, I think that people misunderstood. They misunderstand and underrepresent their impact. Right. This is African proverb. If you have not spent the night with a mosquito, right? Like, if you think you're too small to make a difference, you have not spent the night with a mosquito. I have. I remember one time I woke up with so many damn mosquito bites on my leg that I swear that my leg was just one big ass bump.

[Emily]

Yep.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

I'm like, one mosquito makes a hell of a difference. And if all of us do our part, right? Like, you do your part for you, and you show up as you. In showing up as you. Oftentimes what happens is that we give other people Permission to do the same. And when those people, because some people will try to triangulate you back into the position that they know you to be, you must stand strong. You must stand with the tribe that you built of people who surround you, who are happy for you to be exactly who you are, who are accepting of who you are, so that those people, instead of triangulating you back into position, now have to find a new position to be in.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Because we're all like, I mean, triangulation, definitely talking therapeutic terms, but like, we all have a role to play within family systems, friends systems, and also in society at large. And usually it's what other people want to their benefit, not to your benefit. So when you are who you. When you become who you actually are, when you wear it and you just, you're just like, I'm naked and this is it. Hey, once you outside and you naked.

[Emily]

Yep.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Other people will see that nakedness and some of them will comment on the bravery and try to figure out how to do it for themselves. And other people will tell you to get dressed. Just don't get dressed.

[Emily]

Yeah. Because they have been taught their whole lives that they are not allowed to love their body exactly as it is. And how dare you stand out there naked. Like you are allowed to be proud of the body that you have exactly the way it is. What is the opposite?

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Recently. Hold on real quick. So recently I was talking to a friend and I was like, oh yeah, I don't like this person. And she was just like, why? She's really sweet person. And I realized that had nothing to do with her. Everything to do with me. I didn't know her well enough. I don't even have the range to dislike her. It was something that. About how I was feeling about me that I needed to examine. And because this person stood so firmly in who they are and are part of my tribe, a distant part, a not everyday talking part, she challenged me on it. And I had to ask myself the tough questions. And I realized, oh, I'm jealous and I'm envious. I'm both. I was jealous and I was envious. And I was just like, okay. I mean, it's the equivalent of some people saying that they don't like Beyonce. I'm like, what about her don't you like? I'm like, do you know her well enough not to like her? Or are you saying that you don't like her music? You don't feel like you like her politics? What is it that you're feeling like you don't. Like. Like that's okay to say. But you don't. You probably don't know whoever it is you're saying you dislike, you don't know them well enough.

[Emily]

Right. So what is the other direction of the analogy? So anyone who thinks they're too small to make a change has never tried to fall asleep with a mosquito in the room. That's a mis. Like, you can be small enough to be irritating to just about anybody. And that is. That is often where I find myself. But, like, you're, like, so big and so beautiful and so confident and so just fully present over your own center of gravity that, like, oh, this makes people uncomfortable because all of the things that I feel confident and comfortable about that I have esteem for in myself and. Oh, makes other people uncomfortable. Yeah, yeah. Because other. A lot of us, like, get taught our whole life we're not allowed to word.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Everybody's not gonna be comforted by your presence. But those people don't have to be in your presence. They can remove themselves.

[Emily]

Yeah. We're gonna do. Very soon, we're gonna do an episode on shadow work. Amelia's brain. Primary experience of, like, really high quality therapy came through dream work and exploring their shadow self. Like, when you meet somebody who just, like, rubs you the wrong way, somebody you just really don't like, chances are it's because there's something about them that is like, the things you have been taught you are not allowed to like about yourself, or that you've been taught to feel ashamed of in yourself and.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

That you've been hiding.

[Emily]

Yeah. So in. In the same way that Attorney Wu was told she was arrogant, when she came in knowing something, this guy, her boss, felt super threatened by, like, how much mastery she had of the law, and that's why he hated her.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Like, I hate that you know more than me sometimes. It's also, I hate that you have more than me. I hate that I think of you as being better than me.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

And the thing is, whether or not someone is better than you is probably in your head.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Right. Like, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that a lot of people don't actually think that they're better than you, but you might think that they're better. You think that they think that they're better than you, which really is just you thinking that they're better than you.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

And instead of coming home to roost in the fact that it was you that created this cycle, you give it to them and you make it their Responsibility. Me saying that I did not like this person wasn't about that person. It was about this was about this person. It was about me noting their work ethic and also noting the ways in which their privilege helps them in a way that I am not privileged. That won't help me. And that wasn't about her. That's, number one, it's about the system. And number two, it was about, are you doing what you can. Recently, Kev onstage said something like, you are worried about the outcome, but you should be worried about the output. Put out the thing that you want to do. Worry about that, because that is what is in your control. You're not in control of how people receive it. You're not in control of anybody's algorithm. So as long as those things remain true, just put the thing that you want out there, including yourself, right? Put the output and stop worrying about the outcome. Come all the time. Granted, I also know that safety, because everybody doesn't have access to the same amount of safety. So sometimes that output can have death as an outcome. It can impact Dr. Candace Hargans, who wrote Good Sex.

[Emily]

That's another book. If your library doesn't have it.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yes.

[Emily]

Oh, my God. Get that book.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Let's talk about the impacts to. What is it to livelihood, luxury and life and being your authentic self. Showing up outside, liking who you are can have impacts to your luxuries, your livelihood and your life. Especially if other people don't believe that someone like you should have access to it. You have to determine whether or not it is worth it to live a life less than what it could be and what you want it to be in order to keep yourself alive. Survival, or if you're interested in thriving and living, there is no wrong answer. And there will be moments where you're like, oh, I can thrive here, but I have to just survive here.

[Emily]

Yep.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

But knowing the difference, knowing the truth of it, knowing who you are and at the very least, even if it's just private to you and a few others, is, I think, way better than not even having it known to you.

[Emily]

Yep. That has been one of the toughest lessons for me from an autism diagnosis point of view that, like, it was just true that there were going to be some spaces where I could feel comfortable and confident and fully in myself. And there were other spaces where, like, that was just not something that was available to me and that wasn't things being wrong. That was just life as it currently is. And, like, I could do everything that I can within my lifetime to Change that. And also, like, I can make life better for people in generations following me. And it was still gonna be true that there'd be some places where I was welcome and some places where I wasn't.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Right. And part of our work is to just build our capacity to be able to accept who we are and to understand that sometimes other people will not accept us, that we will be rejected. Now you don't want to be rejected and disrespected are not the same thing. Right. Someone not being welcoming and being disrespectful are not the same thing. And certainly, like, pensions of power mean that we all have to be careful because we all have power in some way, shape, or form.

[Emily]

Yep.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Particularly those of us who are white and male and cis, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

[Emily]

Like, we straight and Christian, like, between 25 and 55.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Like, there's a lot of power and a lot of privilege in those identities. We have to watch ourselves.

[Emily]

Yeah. Like, if you're a citizen in America, right now is the moment when you have more privilege than somebody who is not documented in this country. Right. And anybody who has that privilege has a responsibility to use it at a time when people who don't have those privileges are at greater and greater risk.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Risk. And, like, I don't. Like, I want to make it concrete, not abstract. Not just their luxuries are at risk.

[Emily]

Right.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Livelihoods, their ability to make money, to have a roof over their head, to have food in their belly, to have clothes on their back. These things are at risk, as are their lives, whether or not they will be alive or dead. Rest on sometimes what those of us who have the privilege will and will not do. And that is lower accountability as global citizens.

[Emily]

And nobody has to feel any way. We don't have to feel good about it or bad about it. We just have to be honest about where we are with, like, all the different overlapping identities that we have of, like, what do we have access to, what do we not have access to? How can we use the access we have to make life better for people who don't have that access?

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

And you are a shining example of this. You do this a lot. Like, even before I ever remember having a conversation with you, I remember someone contacting me about a speaking engagement at your recommendation.

[Emily]

Oh, great.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

And I was just like, that. That's kind of awesome. Like, because other people, I feel like we can be so entrenched in having everything and sort of hoarding all the stuff that no one ever wants to mention your Name in a room. No one ever wants to say anyone else's name lest that person get that opportunity or less that person earn the money from the thing. Like this shirt was created by Dr. Lex. We've talked about Dr. Candace hard. The capacity expert is Raquel Hopkins on the Internet. And I'm just like, I'm not afraid.

[Emily]

To say other people's names since we're saying the names of amazing people. Shamika Thorpe. Now you have written a book.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Dr. Shamika Thorpe, research explorer, has not.

[Emily]

Written a book yet, to my knowledge that, like, when is she gonna write a book? Oh, my God, I can't wait.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

I'm ready.

[Emily]

And, like, I don't recommend it. Writing a book is not fun.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

No, no.

[Emily]

Actually, you know what?

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

The writing the book part was fine. It's this part. It's the part after. With the marketing, it's hard. Like, the publisher's expectations versus what you. Your expectations were and where you have, like, communication gaps and expectation gaps and how you're going to leap over those gaps and the like. I'm also not a natural salesperson, so.

[Emily]

It'S against everything you've ever been taught you're supposed to be as a human being.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

The second someone says no, I say.

[Emily]

Okay, okay, we're done. Thanks for listening, though.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Meanwhile, marketing says that you're supposed to ask multiple times to make sure that the no is no. Because most people will say no to anything that they have to buy. And I'm just like, but they know their wallets. I don't know their wallets. And they're like, well, it's only $20. I'm like, that's not an only. Because if you work for $20 an hour. I asked you to give up an hour of your life to buy this thing. That's not an only. Especially when you don't know when you're going to die.

[Emily]

So.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

So for me, marketing is difficult.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

So now I have to just think of all things as an invitation. I'm inviting you to get this book.

[Emily]

Yes.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

And if it feels right, like, if after you get it, you read some of it and you're just like, yo, this is great. Number one, tell me. Like, DM me. I read those dms, and it's one of the things that sort of keeps me going with the invitation on.

[Emily]

So you're superb on the Internet.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Who.

[Emily]

Where can people find you on the Internet? Because you are, like. I think the first place I saw you was on Instagram.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

I mean, I used to be super active. Then I got Unactive. And now I'm back to active.

[Emily]

Are you active again?

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yes, Just on a different name. Not under Anat right now, under Dr. Donna Oriolo.

[Emily]

Dr. Donna Oriol on Instagram. So I was supposed to be very. I was. I have always been supposed to be very active on. We should. We need to stop. I have kept you so much beyond the time that you're supposed to be doing this. I'm so sorry. But you're so good at social media. I don't know how you do it, but, like, if people are interested, if people are participating in social media. Are you on anywhere besides Instagram?

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

I'm on TikTok.

[Emily]

Don is so good. So good at video. Oh, my God.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

I'm trying to get better. Figure it out.

[Emily]

You're the. Hey. All videos. The videos where you're just like. Let me tell you about a thing that happened between me and a client the other day. I just want to share this message.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Lauren. I used to be like, therapy walls could talk. They would say, yes, therapy walls could talk. Like, I used to do that one a lot. And then I stopped and I keep saying, I'm gonna. I'm gonna run it back. And then I don't run it back. So now I'm just like, look, this is what's been. The theme of therapy this week has been responsibility.

[Emily]

Oh, my God. This. It's. It's so. And I know that social media is very hard work.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And I know, like, my experience was always like, people can just read the book. If people just read the book, then they'll get all the content. They don't need to. Like, I don't, like, why am I doing all this extra additional work to put out the social media stuff that is free for them to consume but is so much labor for me to produce. And I'm not that gooey at it, but when you make it, I'm just like, everybody who sees this is going to buy your book immediately because they're going to be like, I want that to be my therapist. I'm going to show these to my therapist and be like, why can't you be more like this?

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Because the therapist is who they are. I am who I am because the.

[Emily]

Therapist is who they are. No, my therapist is a very different kind of person. And I, like, appreciate my therapist for who they are. But, like, there is a part of me that's just like, I wish my therapist were this. Just, like, just. Just tell me if I'm fucking up. If I'm fucking up. And it's my fault. And there's like, a big old blind spot that I've had for the last 10 years. I've had the same therapist since 2008. Just.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Just longevity. I've had my therapist since, like, I had a therapist, and then I ended up changing my therapist and. Because the first one, what I loved is that she said, like, I am unable to help you with this thing. And I think that you should see this type of therapist instead. Someone that is trained in this. I'm not trained in that. So I found that person. She's like my unicorn. And I am. I got to do my own work. I mean, that's what it really comes down to. There's. There's work for me to do, and I am doing that work with her. And I'm like, it's weird to see, like, the differences between, like, one therapist to the next, because you would think that, like, I could only mess with this type of therapist. And it's clearly not true.

[Emily]

It's definitely not true.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

It's definitely not true. And it makes me wonder how big people's lives could be if they stop thinking of themselves as only having a certain type. As in not just a type of romantic partner, but also a type of friend or type of job. And if you stop putting limitations, what could you. What could you be? What could you have?

[Emily]

Because the more diversity you interact with, the more you find out about yourself.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yes. And the more that you learn about yourself, the more that you know and the more that you're able to like it. Right. Like, you can hold yourself in so much more esteem with the more that you learn about yourself. Because some people think they are some shit, and I'm just like, no, sweetheart, you are the shit. There is a difference.

[Emily]

Help Everyone listening to this at the end of it is like, oh, right, I'm a good person living in a really difficult world.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yes.

[Emily]

Oh, right.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Not a really difficult person living in a really great world.

[Emily]

Right.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

The world.

[Emily]

The world. Hard world.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Like, this is. This is bath and awkward.

[Emily]

It is rough out there. We are all doing our best. Are you making an effort to be kind? You're doing it right.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yeah. Doing your best every day.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Knowing that your best will change from day to day.

[Emily]

Yes. And on those days when your best is not enough, commit to doing better tomorrow.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

And that's all.

[Emily]

Yeah. Yeah. Your best is what it was today. And that was what you had. It was your best. And just because it wasn't what everything that was needed doesn't mean it wasn't enough for you to Give. It was 100% of what you had to give.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

So good job.

[Emily]

You cannot give more than that and don't give more than that. It's like running. Like, run as fast as you can today and also the three days after that. Because it's not about how fast you can run today. Because it's not just today. You need to run every single day. And running, I don't mean literally, because I'm not gonna run ever again in my life if I can avoid it.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

That's not.

[Emily]

That's not where I am.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Why am I running?

[Emily]

Right? No, I'll walk. I'll ride a bike.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

I will ski. And sometimes that will be the day, right? Like, sometimes you'll be running and sometimes you'll be walking. Sometimes you'll be skipping. Sometimes you'll go back to running.

[Emily]

And I do indeed live in the kind of neighborhood where every now and then there's a bear on the street. And I might run away from the bear, but. But I won't expect to be able to do it again all of the next three days. Because that's. Because it's a. It's about what's sustainable over time. That doesn't make you a worse person. Anyway, I am so incredibly grateful that you could come and talk to me for all this time. Anybody who doesn't already own a copy of Drink Water Mind you'd business.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

You.

[Emily]

You can get a copy. You can get a copy from all kinds of places. If your library doesn't already have it. You, even if you have purchased a copy already by the end of this episode, still go request that your library carry the book. Because that's not just helping you, it is also helping all the other people who don't have the 20 bucks that it takes to buy a copy of the book. And it helps the book. It tells the publisher there's demand and interest so that when it comes time for the paperback, they put a lot of resources behind it. And it's not just an author working her ass off trying to make things happen, which, having been an author, get to that role.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

5,000 books by the end of summer. I would love to know that 5,000 people have had it, have read it. And I am thinking about possibly doing a read with me a little later in the year so that we can go through the process together. I'll probably keep the groups relatively small.

[Emily]

But if people want to find out about that, where do they go to find out about that?

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Drinkwater book.com will be your Drinkwater book.com. yes. Because if you also sign up for, like, my email list through there, then when I'm ready to do something like that, you will be one of the first.

[Emily]

Oh, my God.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

And I'll put it on my social media as well. So if you follow me on Instagram, you'll see it on Instagram as well. Just make sure you hit that little thing, because apparently you can follow anyone you want. It doesn't mean you'll see their stuff.

[Emily]

It does not. Thank you. Algorithms. That's a completely brilliant idea. A lot of people need, like, the extra kick of, like, a deadline to finish reading, like, chapter by chapter of a book. Otherwise they start reading and then they get busy and they stop reading. Like, many people have told me it took them more than a year to recom as yous Are because, like, it's not easy to read stuff that's as confronting. Right. Like, this is.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

And I would do it probably like one chapter a week style.

[Emily]

Yeah. Which makes it so palatable and so supported. Plus, you get to meet other people who are on the same emotional journey that you're on. Oh, my God. That's such a brilliant idea.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

So, like, a little read with me. I'm trying to figure out where my health stuff will be, and once I know where that is, then I'll be able to definitively pick a time to see. Okay, and now we start.

[Emily]

If you ever want, like, someone to talk about sleep and perimenopause, I have become the expert on sleep and perimenopause because, like, my whole life is defined by whether or not I can sleep as a result of perimenopause. It's nuts.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yeah. I might have to. We might have to have that conversation.

[Emily]

Yeah. There's almost nothing I know more about than you, but that might be just because it has been so immediately relevant in my life.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

When the things thing the way they.

[Emily]

Thing, you go to Google Scholar and you look up the things. Yeah.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Like right now, I am trying to become the expert on how does one endure the MRI machine.

[Emily]

Oh, yeah.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Have given me many things to consider. I'm just like, I can't. I'm like, you want me to be buried in that tube?

[Emily]

It is cold. It is loud.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

My body rejects it.

[Emily]

Inherently anxiety inducing. Yeah. You got to have strategies in place.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

I tried twice yesterday and I was just like, nope, get me out. Give me out. Get me out now.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

And I also have claustrophobia, so.

[Emily]

Yeah. Do you not have access to, like, there are open MRIs yeah.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

I'm going to look for open. Someone said look for open mri. Take anti anxiety meds. Do you see if they will allow someone to be in the.

[Emily]

Don't be a fucking hero. Take medication.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yeah, I'm not trying to be a hero.

[Emily]

Take extra.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

I will do all the things that I need to do in order to get this thing done.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

And I decided that it's okay for me to ask for help because there was a point in my life where it wasn't. And I realized that that was also about my self esteem, that I didn't think, number one, I was worthy of help and number two, that I wanted to show people that I was a good enough person to be in their.

[Emily]

Lives, strong enough to be able to do that by myself.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Exactly. So I didn't want to ask people for help. So now I'm just like, nope, I want the meds, I want someone to hold my hand. I want to open an MRI machine and I want a really nice tech. I want it all.

[Emily]

Yeah. I feel like a really nice tech shouldn't be a thing you have to request.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

No. My tech yesterday was phenomenal. He was so kind. Him and I guess like the nurse, they both, they sat there, they were just like, okay, we're gonna take our time. You're crying, so you're not getting in this machine. And so you stop. So I'm not telling you to stop. Take your time. And I was just like, okay, I'm ready. They're like, okay, this is what's gonna happen. This is what you're gonna hear. This is what you're gonna see. And at any moment, if you are like, that's enough. Squeeze this thing. We'll get you out. He was just like, I can tell you before we take every single picture so that you have constant, like there's some constant communication here. You'll be able to hear me. It wasn't enough for me. I need meds and I need someone to hold my hand.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

But they were willing to make accommodations and I appreciate that and I am proud of myself that I asked for the accommodations that I needed.

[Emily]

It is not for me to say this, but I'm so fucking proud of you.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Thank you.

[Emily]

That you asked for what you needed, that you recognized that, like, there's nothing wrong with you for having that experience. And it is completely normal to try to get your needs met. And I am also really glad that they were supportive in there for you.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yes. Being a person with needs has gotten such a bad rep. And I'm Just like we say you're a needy person. And I'm just like, the person is not a needy person. They are a person with needs.

[Emily]

Yes.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

All people. Sometimes those needs supersede what you are able to give. And when they do, don't demolish that person by telling them that they're needy. Simply let them know that you personally are unable to meet all of these needs.

[Emily]

A person doesn't need too much just because they need more than you can give them.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Exactly. Because now you're having a self esteem conversation on both sides.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

One person who's not allowed to have needs and one person who's not allowed to say, I cannot meet all needs.

[Emily]

Okay, we have to stop before we get into like all of ableism, because that was another thing in extraordinary. Attorney woo is basically a conversation about like, can you be in a romantic relationship if you have needs? Turns out it turns out the answer is yes.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Which would make sense because.

[Emily]

Because all people have needs.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

And how much we need and how little we need can change from day to day from one time of our lives to another time of our lives.

[Emily]

And long term relationship is by definition a changing of needs Relationship.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yes.

[Emily]

And increasing because you're committed to it.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Or at least you're committing to the idea of being committed to meeting this person's needs.

[Emily]

However, this person's needs are going to change. I'm going to do the best I can and we're gonna work together.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

Yeah. That's the who I was when I was 17 and who I am as almost 40 or 40 ish. Not the same person. But the needs have changed over time and sometimes I return to earlier needs. But yes, we're supposed to stop.

[Emily]

Yeah. Because I. This is. You've been so generous with your time and I've just been like, tell me everything you know. Thank you so much.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

I feel like I have a lot of useless nonsense as well. So you want some of that?

[Emily]

I have so much more useless nonsense that I could talk about. There's so many, so many things that don't need to be talked about. But so DrinkWaterBook.com is a place where you can go to get like worksheets and sign up for the newsletter and find out when reading groups are gonna happen. If you're the kind of person who's like, I am not gonna read this book unless I can go one chapter per week and hear from the author and be helped through all of the. Because Emily told me I was probably going to sob on the regular while I was reading this and I need somebody to be there for me. If that's going to happen to me.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

I will hold your your virtual hand.

[Emily]

Drinkwaterbook.com I love the book so much. Thank you for writing it, thank you.

[Dr. Donna Oriolo]

For reading it, thank you for your feedback, and thank you for the way that you've honored me with the work that you have been doing around my book. Which is quite incredible.

[Emily]

It is. I mean, when I say it's the least, it's not like the least I can do because I could have done nothing but like, truly for the way this baked book made me feel. This is like just honoring what the book did for me. Cue the ukulele. Our in music is ukulele music.