Navigating Holiday Gatherings With Family

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Navigating Holiday Gatherings With Family"

Podcast: Feminist Survival Project
Hosts: Emily Nagoski & Amelia Nagoski
Episode Date: November 13, 2025

Overview

In this timely episode, Emily and Amelia Nagoski tackle the complexities and emotional labor of navigating holiday gatherings with family—especially when encounters with bigoted or MAGA-aligned relatives are likely. The sisters unpack the pressure to attend family events, different strategies for self-protection and boundary-setting, and practical bystander interventions. Pulling from lived experiences, feminist theory, and examples in American culture, they offer listeners permission to protect their own peace and invite them to consider what meaningful action looks like in politically charged family environments.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Fundamental Dilemma: To Gather or Not to Gather?

• Question: Should you even go to a holiday gathering if you expect to be around bigoted family members?
• Emily highlights the pressure many people feel to attend, despite discomfort:

  "You always have the choice not to show up. You can stay home, you can go visit friends instead of your family. You don't have to go... You can set that boundary." (02:13)

• Lindsay and Emily both clarify that not attending is a valid option, especially for one's own safety or mental health.

Navigating the Presence of Bigotry at the Table

• Most people are "within 2 degrees of a bigot" (01:30), so the conversation turns to practical options:
  • Ignore the person
  • Set explicit conversational boundaries ("We’re just not going to talk about that." - 05:16)
  • Choose to enforce stricter boundaries by excluding them from your home

Notable Quote

"If being around these people drains you ... so that you don't enjoy holidays — don't. You don't have to stay at that party." (03:57, Emily)

When and How to Confront or Engage

• Personal Thresholds: Emily acknowledges, "Maybe every time you look at that person, all you think is they want people like me not to have rights." (05:29)
  • If you can’t let it go, it’s okay to not be present.
• Honest Communication: Emily shares a personal example of directly telling a relative:

  "BTW, I'm non binary. I'm one of those transes he was talking about right when he got shot ... this is why I haven't allowed you in my house." (07:53)

Strategies for Engagement

The 'Crack in the Edifice' Approach

• Referencing cult expert Daniela Mestanek Young (@knittingcultlady), Lindsay explains:
  • Engaging people in cult-like mindsets (such as MAGA) is likely futile for changing their minds, but "you can create cracks—small seeds of doubt—by asking simple, open, genuinely curious questions." (12:29)
  • The goal: Gently expose cognitive dissonances, not to argue, but to slowly destabilize certainty.

The 3D Model of Bystander Intervention

Based on the Green Dot program, the sisters outline three bystander strategies:

1. Direct (20:33)

   • Setting clear boundaries ("That’s not acceptable at this table.") or calmly addressing comments (21:25)
   • Important to stay calm: "If your heart rate is above 100, you’re not calm enough" (32:56)

2. Delegate (34:48)

   • Enlist someone else to intervene or offer support if you don’t feel able or safe.
   • For example, asking for help, or even just making eye contact with someone safe as a signal

3. Distract (38:01)

   • Change the subject to de-escalate ("Did I tell you what happened at school the other day?"), preferably to something neutral
   • "Confine your remarks to the weather and the condition of the roads." (41:34, Jane Austen reference)

Notable Quotes

"The cost of the lowest risk of escalation is that [distraction] doesn’t show directly to anyone at the table that you object ... but it is often the one with the highest harm reduction profile." (42:10, Lindsay)

Understanding the Emotional Realities

• Boundaries are not Aggression:

  "When people set boundaries and limits, often people who are not used to having boundaries react as if it's aggression. But just because they respond that way doesn't mean that's what happened." (30:55, Lindsay)

• Empathy as 'Weakness':
  • Discussion of right-wing rhetoric reframing empathy as a flaw—contradicting core Christian values ("a lot of these people self-identify as Christian." - 22:32)
• Communication Disconnects:
  • Emily, as an autistic communicator, reiterates: "Listen to the words I said. Don't hear what I didn't say." (29:44)

Risks and Realities of Confrontation

• Escalation: Addressing bigotry can increase risk for vulnerable people at the table, including children affected by prior trauma.
• Personal Capacity: Not all confrontation is beneficial for every person. Emily finds value in objecting for the sake of solidarity, while Lindsay feels the cost is too high if it leads to regret or shame.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (With Timestamps)

• "You always have the choice not to show up. ... You can set that boundary." – Emily (02:13)
• "Murder bad." – Lindsay, on the Charlie Kirk incident (06:52)
• "The goal is not to change their mind. The goal is to soften or create a crack." – Lindsay (51:20)
• "When people set boundaries and limits, often people ... react as if someone has aggressed against them, that you setting a boundary ... somehow harms this other person." – Lindsay (30:55)
• "Confine your remarks to the weather and the condition of the roads." – Emily, quoting Jane Austen (41:34)

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Cultural Symbols & Parables

• The Grinch as Parable:
  Emily offers a highly personal, alternative reading of "The Grinch Who Stole Christmas," suggesting the Grinch is "autistic and protected himself by withdrawing from the noise." She challenges the narrative that difference needs to be reformed, concluding:

  "I think it's okay to be the Grinch if you need to be. Your heart's the right size." (57:10)

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Deep Dives & Bonus Context

The History of 'Separation of Church and State'

• Emily discusses origins at length, illustrating that the principle is historically more about preventing government subjugation to religious authority, not only about freedom of worship:

  "When you’re writing a constitution... that's the real separation: does the Pope tell me what to do? Does the Bible... or does the Emperor decide?" (44:51)

How to Subtly Introduce Dissent

• When faced with extremist views, the hosts recommend curiosity clothed in warmth:

  “That’s so interesting. Tell me more about that. Tell me how that’s going to impact people of different faiths in this country.” (46:43, Lindsay)

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Takeaways & Closing Advice

• You Do Not Have to Attend, Engage, or Endure: Opting out of family gatherings is valid self-care.
• If You Engage, Have a Goal: Whether it’s to create a crack, protect others, or simply survive the meal.
• Boundaries Are Healthy: Don't absorb others' emotional interpretations.
• The '3Ds' Give You Options: Direct, Delegate, Distract—choose what fits your safety and capacity.
• It’s Okay to Be the Grinch: Self-protection is not wrong, and you don’t have to change to suit others’ comfort.
• Protect Yourself—Don’t Steal Christmas (or Anyone’s Stuff): (“You’re not allowed to take anybody’s stuff ... just protect your limits.” - 60:37)

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Useful Timestamps

• 02:07 — Setting boundaries about who to invite/attend
• 09:18 — Engaging with cult-like belief systems ('cracks')
• 19:01 — The fragility of extreme beliefs
• 20:33 — The '3Ds': Direct, Delegate, Distract
• 30:55 — On boundaries and perceived aggression
• 41:34 — Jane Austen’s conversational advice
• 44:51 — Historical perspective on church & state
• 51:20 — The real aim: cracks, not conversion
• 57:10 — The permissive 'Grinch' reading

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Tone & Language

Empathetic, sometimes humorous, always forthright. Emily and Lindsay model both vulnerability (discussing personal boundaries and hurt) and practical, feminist resolve—reminding listeners to trust their needs and reject the narrative that family harmony is always paramount. Their candor includes moments of exasperation, reflection, and solidarity for those who can’t or won’t tolerate the intolerable.

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For listeners overwhelmed by the prospect of holiday gatherings, this episode offers both validation and a practical, permission-filled toolkit grounded in feminist values and deep compassion.

Transcript

[Emily]

We need to talk about the upcoming holidays. Do we? We do. We do. Because they're coming. Yeah. And I know this is not how you do holidays, but for almost everybody, they're a time of gathering with family and friends. And most people love this about the holidays. I know, I know. You don't believe me.

[Lindsay]

No, I believe you. I believe you.

[Emily]

This is, this is. The vast majority of humans feel this way about holidays.

[Lindsay]

But it's not merely that, like, I'm not a gathering type person. It's that I don't have within 2 degrees of my immediate family any MAGA people that I know of.

[Emily]

Right.

[Lindsay]

Unlike you.

[Emily]

So. Yeah. So even though you have people you get along with in your family, you still don't do the gathering with people? No, no, I find it not regularly, not annually, not even biannually, but most of us do.

[Lindsay]

And most of us.

[Emily]

Yes. Are within 2 degrees of a bigot. Yeah. Most of us run the chance of encountering a bigot at a holiday. And the question is, do you, what do you, what do you do in that case? Do you ignore them? Do you make everyone miserable by just being argumentative the whole time? Like what, when, why and how do you deal with a bigot at your holiday gathering? That's what we're going to talk about today.

[Lindsay]

And I'm going to go straight to the bystander stuff that I always go to.

[Emily]

Who? Okay, well, I'm going to talk about when, at what times is it appropriate to argue with your bigot in your family. And I'm going to say that you always have the choice not to show up. You can stay home, you can go visit friends instead of your family. You don't have to go, you don't have to invite them to your house. You can maintain that your house is a place that's not safe for bigots. You can set that boundary. You can just not go.

[Lindsay]

And you can for sure maintain that a bigot's house is not a safe place for you.

[Emily]

For sure. For sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you can always just, I mean, so in the face of the recent despicable murder of Charlie Kirk, which is a bad thing that we absolutely do not support and think should be bad and no one should do. There has been talk about the tone of these conversations and can't we all just get along finally? The middle class white people are like, can't we all just get along? Do we have to argue why, why haven't we been open to conversation? And you, you don't have to be Open to conversation. You can say, no, we're not doing this. I'm not confronting you. I'm not going to put myself in your presence. You can be the one who like, disowns the bigot. That's totally. That's totally fine. If that's what you got to do to keep yourself safe, to keep yourself feeling ventral and connected, that is what you should do. If being around these people drains you and makes you feel bad and makes you feel like your energy is being sucked out of you so that you don't. You don't enjoy holidays. Holidays are for enjoying. Don't. Don't do the things. If you're not having fun at the party, don't. You don't have to stay at that party.

[Lindsay]

Absolutely.

[Emily]

Yeah. So when is at your own discretion. Right. You don't have to even make the confrontation. You don't even have to be in their presence.

[Lindsay]

However.

[Emily]

Yeah. What you're gonna say, there's a sort of.

[Lindsay]

I mean, there's a middle ground of you're allowed to be here, but you're not allowed to say things.

[Emily]

Yeah, that was my next step.

[Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Emily]

If you do elect to be in the presence of the bigot, then there's the matter of like, maybe that person is someone who just doesn't talk about politics and they'd rather just leave it. And you. And in that case, you can choose not to. Not to bring it up, just let it lie. Just like sleeping dogs. Yes, sure.

[Lindsay]

Yep. Yep. You can do that. And you can make it an explicit rule.

[Emily]

Yeah, you can make an explicit rule.

[Lindsay]

We're just not going to talk about that.

[Emily]

We're going to try and make the holidays pleasant and we're just going to ignore the thing. Or maybe you're like me and you can't.

[Lindsay]

Yep.

[Emily]

Maybe every time you look at that person, all you think is they want people like me not to have rights. They believe that people I love are a danger to society when all they want is to exist. And in that case, that's why I don't let these people.

[Lindsay]

Right.

[Emily]

Because you. Yeah, you can't. Because I can't.

[Lindsay]

And if you. And like, for the record, like, I can't either. But my choice around not being able to is not being around them.

[Emily]

Yeah, me too. Yeah. To the extent that there's a member of my family who I will not allow in my house, my extended family will of my in laws that I allowed once in my house and I made myself scarce. And after that I decided I was like, what the this is not, this is not the right decision. I caved to my husband and from now on, no, this person's not allowed in my house. My house is not a safe space for bigots. So now this person's not allowed in my house and I don't go see that person. And after the despicable murder of Charlie Kirk, which should not have happened and is a bad thing, and we absolutely disagree with it just being clear.

[Lindsay]

Murder bad.

[Emily]

We don't murder bad. She texted politically, A rise in politically.

[Lindsay]

Motivated violence is a leading indicator of a rise in autocracy.

[Emily]

Yeah, she texted like, what a shame it is. We can't all just talk. We can't all just get along. And she acknowledged that she has been someone who just like, doesn't talk about things and lets them. Just tries to ignore and pretend that these disagreements don't exist. And I let her know at that time, just FYI. Yeah, that's exactly the reason why you're not allowed in my house, by the way. Just so you know, I had in the past used other excuses like I have something to do or I don't feel well or like, I'm just too autistic to be around people today anyway. Yeah, but you got honest after. She was like, I'm open if you.

[Lindsay]

Want us to be able to talk about these things.

[Emily]

Here's reality. Yeah, she invited open conversation. There was one day of texting where I was like, by the way, I'm non binary. I'm one of those transes he was talking about right when he got shot. And also, just so you know. Yeah, I've been for. This is why I haven't allowed you in my house. So if you. I'm totally excited. You want to be open to conversation, that's great. Here are some resources to start learning about the things that I think are important for you. Have not heard another word since. Anyway, so if there's no explicit rule saying we're not going to. I am going to go be in the presence of this person. We're not going to set a rule explicitly that says we're not talking about this stuff. Or if they break the rule and inevitably they say something bad, they say something like, you know the things they say. You know the things they say.

[Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Dog whistle things. Fox News talking point things. Lies and, and, and, and, and bigotry that they spout. Do you object? I mean, I think unless you feel really unsafe, you're gonna want to, but I think this is the time when you talk about the bystander things.

[Lindsay]

Okay. So before I talk about the bystander things, I want to offer a resource for people who know that they're going to be confronted with people in the maga cult. There's a social media person who goes by knitting cult lady, Daniela Mestanek Young. That's her actual name.

[Emily]

She wrote a book about cult.

[Lindsay]

She's written a couple of books now. One of them is coming out next year. One is called Uncultured. She was raised in the Children of God pedophile sex cult. And when she was kicked out of the cult, she came to America and joined the. As she describes it, the cult of the US Military. Is a combat veteran and an intelligence officer. Was when she was in the military.

[Emily]

And is an expert in cults.

[Lindsay]

Is like an actual. For multiple reasons in lots of ways. And the second book is called the Culting of America. And her social media. She posts very regularly and has a lot of insight into what a person outside the cult can and cannot do to help a person get out of the cult. And mostly the moral of the story is you can't. And what you can do is cracks. Cracks in the edifice of. Of certainty. So which the.

[Emily]

The Charlie Kirk martyr did create scores for some people.

[Lindsay]

It did. And also the situation with the Epstein files was a big crack for a lot of people because people especially who were transitioning out of Q and into maga, whose primary allegiance was the cult of MAGA now because they wanted to bring down the elite's pedophile sex ring like Epstein. Like that.

[Emily]

That.

[Lindsay]

That was the pedophile sex ring of the elite.

[Emily]

There it is.

[Lindsay]

Show us the files. Yeah.

[Emily]

And the fact that Trump isn't in it.

[Lindsay]

Trump is like, nope, not gonna do it. Is this massive betrayal of the central mission for many people of the cult. So that's another crack. Another way to help just bring cracks into police people's belief system calcified is simply by asking really, like, the simplest kind of questions that you as an outsider ask. Because you just don't know anything. And you're just talking. You're not like going into the cult and like trying to like, do you know, gonzo journalism or anything. You're just like talking to a human being in your house or in their house. And you're like, so tell me all about this. And you ask the kind of question, the simplest things, like, the goal is simply to, like, ask questions. Look for. So look for points of cognitive dissonance. So this is true. How can this. What, like, how come that doesn't negate this other thing.

[Emily]

Yeah. That requires you to be pretty informed about.

[Lindsay]

No, it doesn't. You're just listening. Okay.

[Emily]

But see, going back to Charlie Kirk, one of the things he did was the, you know, feminism is a cult, convince me I'm wrong, or whatever the hell his things were.

[Lindsay]

Yeah. Okay.

[Emily]

And yeah. Which he did almost exclusively with college students who would do this, ask him questions and try to catch him in his whatever. And he would evade. And this is why conservatives love him, is because he's good at the rhetorical turn to not answer the question. He doesn't develop cracks. He doesn't. He just, you know, somebody asks him about feminism and he asks, well, can we first agree what a woman is? And like, no, that's a bullshit evasion. Like, so that he doesn't have to answer this. Very obvious. Yeah.

[Lindsay]

Unless he's talking to someone like me where I'm like, yeah, let's agree what a woman is.

[Emily]

Which he would never, ever, ever, ever do. And therefore, that's why nobody and nobody.

[Lindsay]

Like me frequently get caught out their time with him. Exactly.

[Emily]

Which was what made his content so appealing is that he seemed so calm and rational and never to get caught out because they are ignoring the fact.

[Lindsay]

That he's not answering the question rhetorically. He's just real good at a relevant sounding pivot.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Lindsay]

How many transmasch shooters are there? He gets asked with the like, rhetorical idea being none.

[Emily]

None, None. Yeah.

[Lindsay]

And his answer was literally one.

[Emily]

Right.

[Lindsay]

Which you can say that about any kind of mass shooter.

[Emily]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's too many mass shooters.

[Lindsay]

The question needed to have been what percentage of shooters are. Even though it shouldn't have been a question in the first place. The whole conversation is bogus.

[Emily]

Yeah. And the only reason he even had an audience was because he had some rhetorical skill.

[Lindsay]

So why are you bringing up the bogusness of.

[Emily]

Because you were saying when you ask a question out of a place of total lack of knowledge, you could potentially bring a crack, tap a little crack into the belief.

[Lindsay]

Right. Cause what they're doing is repeating the talking points that they've heard literally over and over. And this is one of the things I learned from an Inkult lady is that when people are in a cult, one of the ways you can tell is that all of them say exactly the same thing in exactly the same way because they've been taught what to say.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Lindsay]

There's a wonderful phrase, a thought stopping cliche. It is what it is.

[Emily]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lindsay]

That kind of thing. And they're gonna, their first line of defense, their first answers to questions are gonna be thought stopping cliches. Don't let it stop your thoughts. It is what it is. So what is it though? Like I'm asking, like, I'm like, tell me about it. Like we don't, we don't talk about this. I don't know enough about who you are and why this matters to you. It's clear that it really does matter to you. So what is it? If it is what it is and you, your ability to tolerate people saying ugly stuff might need to be. I don't know how fast it's gonna turn ugly, but chances are, especially like if they're talking, you're expressing compassion and empathy and curiosity. This like warm approach, this open door. Tell me what this is like for you. It's not gonna get ugly real fast because they're gonna be on their best behavior and you may never know that a question you ask.

[Emily]

They may not be on their best behavior.

[Lindsay]

You never gonna know. Or they might go in because you're being so warm and approach oriented. They're gonna feel welcome to go ahead and say all of the ugly stuff. In which case everyone at the table gets to hear them say the ugly stuff, which for better or worse, everybody hears them say the ugly stuff.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Lindsay]

And what we're talking about right now is not about the vulnerable people at the table. We're talking about creating cracks in the calcified knowledge system.

[Emily]

Right. There are also members of this cult belief system slash perspective who really just feel entitled to feel this way. I mean the people who think that white people are being replaced definitely feel a sense of superiority and that their perspective ought to be listened to, that they are fighting for something.

[Lindsay]

Uh huh.

[Emily]

So they're going to not filter, they're going to go straight to yes, of course I feel this way. This is correct. Because they feel a sense of entitlement to it. And it would not occur to them that this is bad or shameful maybe.

[Lindsay]

And they're going to say the ugly stuff out loud for better or worse.

[Emily]

Okay, so the answer to when is at your own discretion. Yes. Huge permission. Just not to be in that circumstance. The answer to how step one is with curiosity.

[Lindsay]

Yeah. How? Depends on why. Is your goal to create a window of opportunity to put a crack in the, in the calcification then?

[Emily]

Oh that's right. Why was second not sorry?

[Lindsay]

Yes. So why are you doing it? Because you want to like soften the calcification or are you intervening and Having a conversation about it because you want to protect the vulnerable people at the table, because you want to establish a boundary. And then you get to how. So the bystander stuff for me is relevant. Not if you want to soften the calcification or put a crack in that edifice that. And the thing is, it's so superficial. This kind of belief system is so shallow. Its fragility is part of why people get so defensive so fast. Because part of them is aware that the smallest crack could cause the whole thing to shatter. Because it is.

[Emily]

Yes.

[Lindsay]

So it's an eggshell, a tap in the right place.

[Emily]

Whereas so they're intuitively defensive because it.

[Lindsay]

Like a tap in the wrong place could do it wrong. Whereas if you put consistent pressure all over an egg, it's never going to break. It seems like it's very strong, but when you drop it on the floor, it shatters. Because there's differential pressure on one side. So don't get pressure on all sides. Don't do a squeeze. You want to tap. Okay. Anyway, so if your goal instead is to protect their vulnerable people, then you want a bystander intervention. And we're going to go to the Green Dot program led by Dorothy Edwards, which goes by the. The. The three D's. The first one is distract. This is the least direct intervention. Okay, so let's do direct. Direct is the most direct intervention where they say something maga y. And your direct intervention, you might choose to have it be a soften up thing. Like tell me more about that. I'm really curious. Or it might be simply boundary setting. I heard what you said and that's not acceptable at this table. We don't use that word at this table. And I am not stopping your free speech because I am not the government. I'm a human being sitting at this table setting a boundary. And I'm allowed to do that. And if you don't like it, you are welcome to leave.

[Emily]

Mm. That's if it's your table with. You have authority to set boundaries.

[Lindsay]

And if it's not your table, if you're like, so I am not okay being at a table where that's the kind of thing gets said. And if we can just establish a limit that. That's. We're not going to say that word. We're not going to talk about this topic. Great. And if we can't do that, I'm afraid I can't be here. And that doesn't change how much I love you. That doesn't change what an Important role you've played in my life. It just means that I cannot be in the same room as that vibe. That energy is physically toxic to me. For me, it's like sitting in a room with poison gas.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Lindsay]

Like, if. If you're.

[Emily]

And that's when they accuse you of being a special snowflake. And you know what? That just means that they don't care about you and your feelings. And that's probably a sign about what that relationship is.

[Lindsay]

Yeah. I don't know why it's like such an own to call somebody like a special delicate snowflake. Because they have a feeling that got hurt. Like. Yeah. What you said believe that empathy is a weakness. What? Yeah. So Lindsay Ellis, who is great, made a long video about the right wing. It's long and it goes to very dark places. But one of her most important points is that the right is having to go to this extreme length of convincing MAGA followers that empathy is weakness. These are like. A lot of these people self identify as Christian.

[Emily]

Mm.

[Lindsay]

So to go and be like, one of the central tenets of Jesus.

[Emily]

Love thy neighbor as thyself.

[Lindsay]

Right.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Lindsay]

He didn't mean, like, if you feel bad that someone's suffering, do something about it. He meant, who's suffering, though? Who's suffering though? Not the women who die because of lack of access to reproductive health care, but the embryos and fetuses who are defensive where the pregnancy is determined because.

[Emily]

Of the choices of the.

[Lindsay]

No, you can only feel bad about them and not feel bad about the actual human beings in which that embryo or fetus is gestating. Right.

[Emily]

Yeah. Pro life means pro this particular kind of life at this particular kind of stage.

[Lindsay]

Her Starting point was Ms. Rachel, who is a social media person for very young children specifying language development. And she started posting about, like, children dying in Gaza and got just like, yeah, a shit wave of hate for posting about how it's not okay.

[Emily]

This was not in her content for.

[Lindsay]

Children directed by children.

[Emily]

That was in her content that's directed for parents or just general audience. Even though she does have content that is for children. She distinguishes and differentiates separate feats.

[Lindsay]

Right.

[Emily]

She's not going. Gaza is a holocaust. Like, she's not doing that.

[Lindsay]

So, yeah. So the right is freaking out about Ms. Rachel having empathy for children dying of starvation. Children.

[Emily]

For whom her audience, her whole thing is helping children. Yeah.

[Lindsay]

And Lindsay Ellis, who has two kids now, is like. Has the same experience of, like, seeing pictures of hungry children and being like, only because of an accident. Of geography. Is that not my child? Yeah, that's empathy.

[Emily]

That's empathy.

[Lindsay]

And that is the sin of Miss Rachel. It is the sin what makes them call Mr. Rogers an evil man. Because he tells children they are special and good and he's proud of them and he teaches them to have empathy and, and like, how dare children's television. Famously apolitical, right?

[Emily]

Yeah. There's another story about, in a classroom in the, I think, Midwest, there was one of those posters, everyone is welcome. And like, just hands, drawings of hands of a lot of different shades. And the teacher was instructed to take this down because this was too political.

[Lindsay]

So, you know, a political movement is on its last legs when it is starting to reverse direction on one of the central tenets of its foundational teachings. And let's face it, like, Christianity has never very much been about kindness and empathy. Like, it's very much been about conquering. It's been weaponized and politicized and not.

[Emily]

In its application at the level of government, which.

[Lindsay]

But when you're having to be like, I know you feel bad about these young trans children who are more likely than almost any other group in the United States to be unhoused, to harm themselves, to die, to be assaulted in all of the ways a human body can be assaulted. I know when you hear that story, it makes you feel bad. But they're evil and therefore don't feel bad. You're feeling bad, they're manipulating you. They're trying to get you to agree with their evil agenda. Right. So when you as a human being go and say a thing about like, so I need to let you know that the thing you just said hurt. Ouch, ouch. That was the thing that hurt. And I can't stay in a place where I'm just going to get hurt over and over. Big defenses. Because you're, you're trying to manipulate them.

[Emily]

By having a hurt, having feelings.

[Lindsay]

Yeah. Your feelings cannot matter to them. And so, like, don't expect, like, when you talk about, like, I'm coming to you from a place of authenticity and genuineness. I'm letting you know what it is about that that's unacceptable to me. And I want you to know that I am just like, for my own survival, for my own well being, I can't be near that. And I am not trying to manipulate you. I'm not trying to change you, I'm not trying to change how you think I'm. I'm just trying to get through my day and the way for me to do that. Is to not be in the middle of. Not be near that. Or is for you to make one small change in your behavior that you. If it matters enough to you that I am here, then you will make that one small change in your behavior. Not asking you to change what you think, not asking you to change what you do. When I'm not here, what I'm asking for is this little change in behavior. If using that language and talking about this matters more to you than my presence, that's a choice you get to make. And I'm gonna go. And I'm not trying to manipulate. Look how calm I am. Like, look how chill I am about this. Just let me know what matters more to you.

[Emily]

Yeah. I have also, in my journey with my autism and developing relationship with unmasking, have noticed so many times when someone objects to something I say, the thing they're objecting to is not something I said, but the way they interpreted what I say. And I am very reliable that I say words that I mean. And I try very hard to make the tone match what I mean, but that does not stop people from interpreting it the way they interpret it and putting all kinds of layers of inference on top of the words. And there's an autistic YouTuber, TikToker, whatever, Kalen Partlow, who talks about, like, listen to the words I said.

[Lindsay]

Don't hear what I didn't say.

[Emily]

Don't hear words I didn't say. Like, I just meant the words I said. Actual words I said the actual words I said. And, like, I get, like, maybe other people communicate in ways that do include those layers. And you can interpret, like, for me, at least, I just mean the words that I said. I didn't mean all whatever else. Like, that was in your head.

[Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And this is the lesson I learned.

[Lindsay]

As a sex educator, because people are hearing what I'm saying through this, like, really thick layer of cultural lies.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Lindsay]

So they're hearing a lot of stuff that is not coming out of my mouth because it's being filtered through what they already know. They can only understand what I say through the filter of what they already know. So I need to start where they already are and, like, gently, like, dig them out from under the many decades of cultural bullshit they've been buried under. So I like, yeah, I have that experience.

[Emily]

Yeah. So it's possible someone responds emotionally to the gesture you're making of opposition or disagreement without listening just to what you said.

[Lindsay]

Yeah. When people set boundaries and limits, often people who are not used to having People set boundaries and limits, react as if someone has aggressed against them, that you setting a boundary to protect yourself somehow harms this other person. And like, look, they might respond that way. Just because they respond that way doesn't mean that's what happened.

[Emily]

Yeah, yeah. One of the reasons, for example, that my distant relative liked Charlie Kirk was the civil tone, the civil discourse that he seemed to present. And his. His appearance was one of civility, but his words were violent. His words were aggression, were hate.

[Lindsay]

And a lot of doesn't sound civil to me. I don't understand why anybody thought that was civil sounding.

[Emily]

That's because you listen to words, and a lot of people don't listen to words. They listen to tone.

[Lindsay]

No, even his tone of voice, he is an aggressive. He was an aggressive douchebag who reveled in humiliating people he disagreed with. That's unambiguous. And it was very obvious in his emotional presentation.

[Emily]

He, however, wasn't aggressive and angry in.

[Lindsay]

A I'm yelling at you, you have.

[Emily]

Violated my rights kind of way, which is what his people who disagreed with him, their rights were. You know, he wanted to eliminate their rights. He wanted to make it more difficult for them to live their lives. He wanted to oppress people. And so he was met with this more sort of surface level aggression instead of his, like, twisty, sardonic, rhetorical, snide kind of aggression. So the first kind of intervention is.

[Lindsay]

This direct and like, look, if you want to, like, yell, if you want to escalate, just know that escalation is escalation. It increases the risk of harm happening to somebody, even if it's just somebody who gets caught in the crossfire. There might be a kid at the table who, you don't know it, but they're being raised in a family where there is conflict and violence, and you are recapitulating the psychodrama in which they live and they're going to go into turtle mode. And that's so, like, I don't love the choice of escalation for anybody because it increases the risk of harm. And you may not even be aware of the harm that's being perpetuated by anybody. So I recommend, if you're gonna do a direct intervention, don't have it be an escalation. Make sure, like, the nerdy way to talk about it is your heart rate stays below 100 beats per minute. And if it's above that, you're not calm enough to be able to have a conversation. That doesn't increase the risk of escalation and therefore harm. So direct is one of them. Do it if you can do it calmly and do it if it is like the defense that you have to prevent yourself from being harmed further. Delegate is one that I love. It's the second D. The first D was the direct intervention where you just directly address the person and the thing that is happening. Delegation is when it can't be you. Like, when you are like, too shut down, you are too escalated. You can't be the one. You are like the target of the person's bigotry. When you're like, not out as the target of the bigotry and you don't want to be out because it's not safe to be out.

[Emily]

Safe, yeah.

[Lindsay]

And so what you need is for somebody else to do it. And so you make eye contact with somebody else. And maybe you say something to ask for. Maybe you just make eye contact and you ask. You ask for help. That's what delegate is, ask for help. And that person might choose to do a direct intervention toward the person who is the bigot. They might be like, hey, can you come with me into the other room for a second? To you, the person asking for help in some way, maybe your delegation is making eye contact with somebody safe and being like, hey, can you come with me into the other room? I got to talk to you about something. That's just our business. Right? And if.

[Emily]

Yeah, yeah, get help is.

[Lindsay]

And if the person who's being a jerk is like, hey, no, I'm talking to you. We're in the middle of a conversation. I'll be right back. Put a pin in that. And like, you can just not go back. You can take the other person into a different room and be like, so what I need for you to do is for you to gather up my stuff and I'm going to meet you outside and I'm going to go, can you help me out with that? And that person is going to help you with a delegated intervention. Make sense? There's all kinds of ways you can delegate. My favorite, though, is distraction, because it is the way to, like, if you want to continue having your holiday event.

[Emily]

Let's go back to why. So just to be clear that delegate is so direct is when you have the emotional capacity and you've decided that this is important for either to protect someone who's around you or just.

[Lindsay]

And it might be that you know that there's somebody in the room who, whether or not the other person knows it, like, there's somebody there who is being harmed by what the other person is saying.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Lindsay]

And you want that other person to see that not everybody feels that way and somebody is willing to stand up and say, hey, that.

[Emily]

No, that is absolutely my. Why? A. I'm comfortable with direct conflict in ways that most people aren't.

[Lindsay]

I am not.

[Emily]

Yeah, exactly. So I choose direct because I am more comfortable than most people and because I feel a responsibility to make sure that anybody else who hears knows that there's another perspective and that the one that they've just heard from that other person is not okay with everyone and that there is someone who is saying no to that. That's. That's why I go for direct when I need to, unless it's against the objections of my husband, whose house it also is and whose relative it also is. Anyway, so why. And you might go for delegate because you yourself are not in an emotional place to do it or you're not safe to directly. What's the word?

[Lindsay]

Confront.

[Emily]

Confront. Thank you. And so the third one is distract. And why might you choose distract?

[Lindsay]

Because you want to make sure that what you do has the lowest risk of escalating into further harm being perpetrated. And also, if you want whatever's currently happening mostly to continue happening, but you just want to change directions. And a lot of people. A lot of people can take a hint and are. There's a sort of like, basic social decency where they understand that if somebody changes the subject, the subject has been changed. Not everybody. Some people are douchebags. And the more you try to change the subject, the more they'll be like, oh, you're trying to change the subject. But, like, you can totally, like, you just crack a little joke. You just ask for that person, please to pass the potatoes. You calm whatever dish they contributed to the whatever. You ask them where they got something they're wearing. It reminds me of something I got from xyz. Literally anything. Literally. You can start singing a song. You can get up from the table and go over to the piano and start just playing. You can do anything. You can just be like, did I tell you what happened at school the other day? Literally anything. Hey, let's just change the subject. You could say, I know, let's put on a show. You could start talking about your plants. You could start talking about your foot problem. Everybody's got a foot problem.

[Emily]

Are you really looking forward to dessert?

[Lindsay]

Talk about dessert. God knows. Start though any food topic, like risks. If this person is a douchebag, in one way, they're probably also a douchebag in a food shaming, body shaming way. So, yeah, I wouldn't necessarily choose food, but.

[Emily]

Often we're talking about doing this around the table, which is a metaphor, of course. It's not literally a table, but sometimes it's literally a table.

[Lindsay]

Sometimes it's literally a table. Boy, that centerpiece is gorgeous wrapping paper. What's your recipe for? Literally anything. You know how Rich takes a little.

[Emily]

Snippet of a thing and puts it at the end of the episode? I think this time he's just gonna be wrapping paper. By the way, you said it was very odd.

[Lindsay]

What are your plans for tomorrow? Drives, commutes. If a person traveled someplace, ask somebody who traveled.

[Emily]

What was the.

[Lindsay]

What was the traffic like? Yeah, talk about like, what drives your family used to make when you were a kid. We used to only drive on Thanksgiving day because that's the day the, the traffic is the lowest. Whereas on Wednesday, the day before Thanksgiving, that's the day the traffic is worst. Holidays are worse. It's a great day to fly on Thanksgiving. Right? Like, it's a great trap, man. Traffic.

[Emily]

Talk about the weather and the condition of the roads.

[Lindsay]

Exactly. Kindly.

[Emily]

Follow Jane Austen's advice.

[Lindsay]

Jane Austen's advice. The weather and the condition of the roads.

[Emily]

Confine your remarks.

[Lindsay]

And that's like a great thing to say to somebody who's like, if you cannot find anything civil to say, kindly.

[Emily]

Confine your remarks to the weather and the condition of the roads. Confine your remarks to the weather and the roads.

[Lindsay]

Condition of the roads.

[Emily]

How is the traffic?

[Lindsay]

How do you like that new car? So that's, that's distraction is you. You. And this is the one that has the lowest level and the cost of having the lowest level of risk of escalation is that it does not show directly to anyone at the table that you object. It's. It might like, especially like among people who are watching for signs, it might communicate enough. But because it has the least risk of escalation, it is often the one with the highest harm reduction profile.

[Emily]

So Those are the three Ds.

[Lindsay]

Distract, delegate, direct. So those are the bystander things. Those are the whys and the hows and the whens and.

[Emily]

Some specific details about why. This year it might be a little different. Maybe it's time to put a crack in somebody. Maybe it's really, really not. I want to say one more thing about the large scale, like why and how of the autocratic fascistic movement that's going on. I want to talk about the separation of church and state. The history of the separation of church and state in the west kind of begins with Charlemagne. Charlemagne, the Holy Roman Emperor. I know, I know. It seems pointless. Emily's making what face at me. In America, we think of the separation of church and state as the removal of government intervention and direction as to how and why and who is worshiped. Right. The Quakers came here because they're. They were not allowed to worship in England. Right. The way that they wanted to. There was oppression and stuff. So we in America think of, like, that freedom of worship is what separation of church and state means. But if you look at the actual history of the separation of church and state, it's not about what the government does to people. It's about the relationship between government and church authority of. Does the king have to do what the Pope says? Does the. Does the Pope tell the world who the Holy Roman Emperor is? Does the Pope have to anoint an emperor? Or does the Emperor declare, I'm the Holy Roman Emperor and the Pope just has to suck it up? That's about this. That's the real. I mean, when you're writing a constitution and when you're in charge of the government, that's the separation of church and state is, does the Pope tell me what to do? Does the Bible tell me what to do? Does the Quran tell me what to do? It's about the relationship between government and religion, not between the government and how people worship. Does that make sense? Yeah. It's an important thing to remember when people start talking about the separation of church and state. And is it a good thing? This is just information that is useful for right here, right now, when casual people are like, maybe we shouldn't have separation of church and state. Like, just, you know, maybe it would be a nice crack to talk about how Charlemagne wanted to be Holy Roman Emperor, and he, like, had to make this concession with the Pope that that's the. That's the history of separation of church and state, not what we think of it as people who.

[Lindsay]

Yeah, I mean, the guy who runs the OMB is actually literally.

[Emily]

No.

[Lindsay]

For real. Wanting to establish a Christo fascist state. That's a literal stated goal for Rusvote.

[Emily]

Right. That's a relationship between government and religion that is about. I want to impose religious rules.

[Lindsay]

My religious rules.

[Emily]

My religious rules on every person in the country. And I think that's for the best. But. But, like, that's really not what church and state is about. It's about, does the government have to get its authority from somewhere on high. Does there have to be like a supernatural element to.

[Lindsay]

No, that's the same thing that Russ votes. Wants the government to follow Christian rules as he understands them. He wants the government to get it.

[Emily]

He has a misunderstanding about the nature of the separation of church and state throughout history. Like, it's a. So if you want to put a.

[Lindsay]

Crack in something, it doesn't feel like it would work. But if. Sure. If people want to talk about Charlemagne. Sure.

[Emily]

Or just like when Kennedy was elected, there was a lot of concern that a Catholic president was going to do what the Pope said. Right. If that's a more recent, you know, example of the same thing, I think.

[Lindsay]

The kind of thing that puts a crack is to be like, okay, if somebody broaches the leg, maybe there shouldn't be a separation of church and state. Maybe we've kind of been doing it wrong.

[Emily]

Cool.

[Lindsay]

Neat. Tell me more about that. Tell me how that's going to impact people of different faiths in this country. Tell me what that's going to be like for the Jewish people who live in America. Tell me what that's going to be like for the Muslims who live in America. Tell me what that's going to be like for the Sikhs who live in America.

[Emily]

They're going to say that they shouldn't be in America.

[Lindsay]

Make them say it out loud. Make them say it out loud.

[Emily]

That feels terrible.

[Lindsay]

Yeah. They believe terrible things. Yeah, make them. Make them say it. And if they don't feel ashamed of themselves, that's very valuable information. And one of the things that an incult lady talks about is differences in points of view. So if you are surrounded by people with really different points of view. It is very hard to be in a cult if you're surrounded by people who only have one point of view. It's real easy to believe in a culture, which is. Which is why they isolate people. So.

[Emily]

Yeah. Which is why Fox News encourages the boomers to just like spend their whole day with Fox News on and never.

[Lindsay]

So the presenting other points of view being like, that's so interesting. Tell me more about that. And then talking about different points of view, like, what would it be? So tell me what it would be like for you if the Muslim people in America decided we all had to follow their religious rules or the Sikhs, because they're not going to know what a Sikh is. If the Sikhs told us, we all. If the Taoists were like, we all have to follow their. What if atheists got control of the government, were like, everybody has to follow atheism's rules. Nobody's allowed.

[Emily]

They already have. We live in a secular humanist, blah, blah, blah.

[Lindsay]

Oh, that means you're not allowed to go to church. Is that what that. I mean, like, have you been stopped?

[Emily]

Well, you never know when somebody's gonna show up.

[Lindsay]

But, like, has it happened, though?

[Emily]

And, and there's an example. Here's an example of a. Of a thing that was made up, but I saw on Fox News.

[Lindsay]

Yeah, people, I want to know more about that. Tell me more about that. Can we look that story up? I'm so interested because I haven't heard that. I haven't heard that, like, somebody was stopped, prevented, not. Not allowed to go see.

[Emily]

Where are you getting your news? Where are you getting your news?

[Lindsay]

Obviously somewhere different, because I didn't hear that. Let's go find out what happened.

[Emily]

Well, see, you can't trust the mainstream.

[Lindsay]

Media, Can I tell you?

[Emily]

The lamestream media, you can't trust them.

[Lindsay]

One of the things that I have learned having, like, tried to get clear information about this stuff, guys, again, like, I'm trying to learn about it, is if I can't find it in three unrelated places, then I'm skeptical about it.

[Emily]

Well, you can't trust because it feels.

[Lindsay]

Like if something is like, being reported on that, like, happened in life, like, to people, there's gonna be at least three different places given, like the whole Internet and all of social media. There's gonna be.

[Emily]

I saw the same story on Breitbart and Fox News and Truth Social, which.

[Lindsay]

So maybe it happened. And it seems like those might be three related sources and like, maybe one is the Truth Social. You just saw like a re. Sharing of the Breitbart story, like, that kind of thing.

[Emily]

Donald Trump posted it himself and he's sent from God. He's our. He's our savior in this time of.

[Lindsay]

Of.

[Emily]

Of whatever the fuck I am.

[Lindsay]

So I'm. This is one of the most fascinating things to me. Donald Trump sent from God. Wrap this up for me as a savior for Christians. Yeah. How many times has he been married?

[Emily]

I can't.

[Lindsay]

I can't keep it up. I can't. How many affairs has he had? Like, he has none.

[Emily]

That's. That's love.

[Lindsay]

Even hating is like, I don't know if I'm going to heaven.

[Emily]

Women who aren't even attractive enough to assault. It gets dark, doesn't it? It gets dark fast.

[Lindsay]

It sure does.

[Emily]

Yeah. So somebody's gotta be ready for going to the. And I can't anymore.

[Lindsay]

I'M done.

[Emily]

I'm done with the role playing.

[Lindsay]

I understand real, like, I got a master's degree in counseling. I can stay listening.

[Emily]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lindsay]

In a neutral. Tell me more about that. I'm just so curious. And the goal is not to change their mind. The goal is softening her a crack. So just a little tap or just.

[Emily]

To make them say the dirty, dark stuff out loud so that.

[Lindsay]

Make them say it out loud.

[Emily]

Everybody else who is around is like, that sounds a lot like Hitler.

[Lindsay]

And they get to feel. Because most people can feel when, like, it passes around the table like fans in a crowd doing the wave. The like, oh, that's not okay. Yikes.

[Emily]

So what you're doing does take training, I think. It doesn't come instinctively to a lot of people, but if somebody has the capacity for it.

[Lindsay]

Wow. And like, maybe. Maybe your job, if you are the person who can do that and let the record show. I'm not. Like, in real life, I can't, like, because my blood pressure just goes. And I, like, I got. And I have learned through experience that every time I try to tell people they're wrong. Object out loud, I always feel regret and shame about the ways I did it inadequately. And it is not worth the cost to me to do any of the good that it does to confront people, because I know I'm not going to change their mind. And I'm not doing a good enough job of it to feel like I'm putting on the kind of protective, defensive performance that the vulnerable people at the table need me to do. So I don't.

[Emily]

Whereas I feel it's good enough that I tried. Yeah, I raised an objection. And that showed the person at the table who was more vulnerable than me that I'm someone who objects. I'm someone who they can feel connected to, but maybe unsafe with.

[Lindsay]

Maybe if you're. Especially if you're somebody who, like, can take everything they say with a grain of salt and be like, tell me more about that. This is fascinating, but with less sarcasm. Go all the way. They're not gonna know it's sarcastic.

[Emily]

Just.

[Lindsay]

I mean, maybe your job is to sit near them at the table or whatever and engross them in conversation, let them talk and have it just be between the two of you so that you, like, consume their energy and it's not directed outward to everybody else until they say something really gross and horrifying. When you can turn to the table and be like, I want everybody to hear this. This is such a fascinating thing that Uncle Luke Just said we don't have an Uncle Luke. For the record.

[Emily]

We don't have an unbelievable.

[Lindsay]

Can you say that again for the table? It's like bread for sharing.

[Emily]

Yeah. So this is our episode on holidays and family gathering and the inevitable bigot.

[Lindsay]

It's not inevitable. You can absolutely have a family gathering that excludes those people. That is also a strategy.

[Emily]

And if it is inevitable, you can just not go.

[Lindsay]

Yeah, I know a lot of people who really do. And I don't know how I got so lucky that like there's no one within a two degree of separation of my family who is someone I would not at least be willing to spend an afternoon with.

[Emily]

Yeah, I only have a few. It's very. It's a very small number.

[Lindsay]

Yeah, we're quite fortunate. Most people have a direct.

[Emily]

It's half. Ish.

[Lindsay]

It's a third. I want a third of the country is fully.

[Emily]

It's a third of the country in the cult. It's a concentrated third though they occur in clusters. And I'm outside that cluster. I wanted to close with a parable of a cultural touchstone in our country. If not sort of like capital W, Western world. And that is the story of the Grinch. The Grinch who stole Christmas. I think the Grinch is autistic and the Grinch isolated himself from the noise and the piles of people and made the choice to just be him and his dog up in his cave protecting himself. And he's portrayed as having a heart that's two sizes too small. And that is a terrible, terrible story that portrays someone who is different as a monster. And when it gets too much and he's like, I need to protect myself. I need to just like remove all of their. All of their sources of noise and the thing that they do that I just, I can't take it. And in the end they show that like, well, all you have to do is. Is show that person love and what this means. And like that could be a strategy that you use to change someone's mind about what it means to be connected. Or you could interpret this as a very terrible story. This is what I. How I think of it as a very terrible story about how we have to inculcate people who are different from us into our way of thinking. And how, boy, if we only convince them that our intentions are good, then they will be able to tolerate and celebrate and be like us. And I.

[Lindsay]

And I think that if you're the.

[Emily]

Person who is the Grinch and you just can't tolerate the noise that your heart's the right size and it's okay not to. Not to. It's like, I think it's okay to be the Grinch if you need to be. Like, I'm just not gonna be a part of that.

[Lindsay]

If there's anybody else hearing this who's like, that's a pretty selective reading of that text.

[Emily]

It's 100% a selective reader. I'm there with you.

[Lindsay]

I feel like that's not what that story's about.

[Emily]

But the Grinch. The Grinch bothers me because as a. Not the Grinch himself, but the Grinch as a story bothers me because it's about someone who is different being reformed. Not because they have hate in their heart. Not because they've taken any action that harms people until the story takes place.

[Lindsay]

But for years and years and years, the Grinch lived in his cave all alone.

[Emily]

Doing his Grinch thing, protecting himself from all the noise. And I. I relate hard to the Grinch rather than the who's down in Whoville. No. Okay. This is a selective reading. It's only me who's relating hard to the Grinch and wishing that the Grinch could have been celebrated for who he was.

[Lindsay]

Yeah. If we're only talking about the Grinch up until the point when the story begins.

[Emily]

Yeah. And then the Grinch does. It does a bad, misguided thing because he is hurting physically. Like, oh, God, this noise is making me, giving me pain. Your clatter and your decorations are so. It's all too much. It's sensory overwhelm is what it is.

[Lindsay]

And he has.

[Emily]

He has a bad day and he does a bad thing in a very funny way. He pretends to be Santa. And haven't we all pretended to be Santa in order to defend us?

[Lindsay]

A little girl.

[Emily]

Named Cindy. Lulu. Okay, maybe my reading is a little too specific. But what I'm saying is there are other ways to read the story. And I, for one, I want the Grinch to be able to be who he is. And he doesn't need to. He doesn't need to have his heart grow three sizes. That's become a thing that he's not intended to be.

[Lindsay]

He doesn't steal Christmas. It's one day he can get earplugs. Yeah.

[Emily]

But he's had no support. He's been given no indication that, like, maybe he could be okay if only he had, like, some kind of intervention to help him deal.

[Lindsay]

Sure.

[Emily]

I don't think he has ears.

[Lindsay]

Then why does he go with a noise, noise, noise, noise. Why does he do that if he has no ears?

[Emily]

Yeah, well, he doesn't deserve to be called a mean one. And a. And a slimy black banana.

[Lindsay]

Okay.

[Emily]

We good? Protect yourself is what I'm saying. I feel like Protect yourself is the potential alternate reading of Grinch.

[Lindsay]

Yes, you're not allowed to take anybody's.

[Emily]

Stuff, but don't take anybody's stuff. Don't take any stuff.

[Lindsay]

The real moral of the story is you don't have to try to take anybody's stuff just to protect your limits.

[Emily]

That's true.

[Lindsay]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Save yourself. One bad day and a potential jail sentence for impersonating Santa Claus. Okay, I think.

[Lindsay]

I think we're done now.

[Emily]

And then. Talk about Charlemagne.

[Lindsay]

Relatable. Okay, Kyuzi.

[Emily]

Ukulele.

[Lindsay]

We're done. Wrapping paper. What's your recipe for? Literally anything. You know how Rich takes a little.

[Emily]

Snippet of a thing and puts it at the end of the episode? I think this time he's just going to be wrapping paper.