Transcript

Emily (0:11)

We need to talk about the upcoming holidays. Do we? We do. We do. Because they're coming. Yeah. And I know this is not how you do holidays, but for almost everybody, they're a time of gathering with family and friends. And most people love this about the holidays. I know, I know. You don't believe me.

Lindsay (0:38)

No, I believe you. I believe you.

Emily (0:40)

This is, this is. The vast majority of humans feel this way about holidays.

Lindsay (0:49)

But it's not merely that, like, I'm not a gathering type person. It's that I don't have within 2 degrees of my immediate family any MAGA people that I know of.

Emily (1:07)

Right.

Lindsay (1:08)

Unlike you.

Emily (1:09)

So. Yeah. So even though you have people you get along with in your family, you still don't do the gathering with people? No, no, I find it not regularly, not annually, not even biannually, but most of us do.

Lindsay (1:29)

And most of us.

Emily (1:30)

Yes. Are within 2 degrees of a bigot. Yeah. Most of us run the chance of encountering a bigot at a holiday. And the question is, do you, what do you, what do you do in that case? Do you ignore them? Do you make everyone miserable by just being argumentative the whole time? Like what, when, why and how do you deal with a bigot at your holiday gathering? That's what we're going to talk about today.

Lindsay (2:07)

And I'm going to go straight to the bystander stuff that I always go to.

Emily (2:13)

Who? Okay, well, I'm going to talk about when, at what times is it appropriate to argue with your bigot in your family. And I'm going to say that you always have the choice not to show up. You can stay home, you can go visit friends instead of your family. You don't have to go, you don't have to invite them to your house. You can maintain that your house is a place that's not safe for bigots. You can set that boundary. You can just not go.

Lindsay (2:43)

And you can for sure maintain that a bigot's house is not a safe place for you.

Emily (2:47)

For sure. For sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you can always just, I mean, so in the face of the recent despicable murder of Charlie Kirk, which is a bad thing that we absolutely do not support and think should be bad and no one should do. There has been talk about the tone of these conversations and can't we all just get along finally? The middle class white people are like, can't we all just get along? Do we have to argue why, why haven't we been open to conversation? And you, you don't have to be Open to conversation. You can say, no, we're not doing this. I'm not confronting you. I'm not going to put myself in your presence. You can be the one who like, disowns the bigot. That's totally. That's totally fine. If that's what you got to do to keep yourself safe, to keep yourself feeling ventral and connected, that is what you should do. If being around these people drains you and makes you feel bad and makes you feel like your energy is being sucked out of you so that you don't. You don't enjoy holidays. Holidays are for enjoying. Don't. Don't do the things. If you're not having fun at the party, don't. You don't have to stay at that party.

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Navigating Holiday Gatherings With Family"

Podcast: Feminist Survival Project
Hosts: Emily Nagoski & Amelia Nagoski
Episode Date: November 13, 2025

Overview

In this timely episode, Emily and Amelia Nagoski tackle the complexities and emotional labor of navigating holiday gatherings with family—especially when encounters with bigoted or MAGA-aligned relatives are likely. The sisters unpack the pressure to attend family events, different strategies for self-protection and boundary-setting, and practical bystander interventions. Pulling from lived experiences, feminist theory, and examples in American culture, they offer listeners permission to protect their own peace and invite them to consider what meaningful action looks like in politically charged family environments.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Fundamental Dilemma: To Gather or Not to Gather?

Question: Should you even go to a holiday gathering if you expect to be around bigoted family members?
Emily highlights the pressure many people feel to attend, despite discomfort:

"You always have the choice not to show up. You can stay home, you can go visit friends instead of your family. You don't have to go... You can set that boundary." (02:13)
Lindsay and Emily both clarify that not attending is a valid option, especially for one's own safety or mental health.

Navigating the Presence of Bigotry at the Table

Most people are "within 2 degrees of a bigot" (01:30), so the conversation turns to practical options:
- Ignore the person
- Set explicit conversational boundaries ("We’re just not going to talk about that." - 05:16)
- Choose to enforce stricter boundaries by excluding them from your home

Notable Quote

"If being around these people drains you ... so that you don't enjoy holidays — don't. You don't have to stay at that party." (03:57, Emily)

When and How to Confront or Engage

Personal Thresholds: Emily acknowledges, "Maybe every time you look at that person, all you think is they want people like me not to have rights." (05:29)
- If you can’t let it go, it’s okay to not be present.
Honest Communication: Emily shares a personal example of directly telling a relative:

"BTW, I'm non binary. I'm one of those transes he was talking about right when he got shot ... this is why I haven't allowed you in my house." (07:53)

Strategies for Engagement

The 'Crack in the Edifice' Approach

Referencing cult expert Daniela Mestanek Young (@knittingcultlady), Lindsay explains:
- Engaging people in cult-like mindsets (such as MAGA) is likely futile for changing their minds, but "you can create cracks—small seeds of doubt—by asking simple, open, genuinely curious questions." (12:29)
- The goal: Gently expose cognitive dissonances, not to argue, but to slowly destabilize certainty.

The 3D Model of Bystander Intervention

Based on the Green Dot program, the sisters outline three bystander strategies:

Direct (20:33)
- Setting clear boundaries ("That’s not acceptable at this table.") or calmly addressing comments (21:25)
- Important to stay calm: "If your heart rate is above 100, you’re not calm enough" (32:56)
Delegate (34:48)
- Enlist someone else to intervene or offer support if you don’t feel able or safe.
- For example, asking for help, or even just making eye contact with someone safe as a signal
Distract (38:01)
- Change the subject to de-escalate ("Did I tell you what happened at school the other day?"), preferably to something neutral
- "Confine your remarks to the weather and the condition of the roads." (41:34, Jane Austen reference)

Notable Quotes

"The cost of the lowest risk of escalation is that [distraction] doesn’t show directly to anyone at the table that you object ... but it is often the one with the highest harm reduction profile." (42:10, Lindsay)

Understanding the Emotional Realities

Boundaries are not Aggression:

"When people set boundaries and limits, often people who are not used to having boundaries react as if it's aggression. But just because they respond that way doesn't mean that's what happened." (30:55, Lindsay)
Empathy as 'Weakness':
- Discussion of right-wing rhetoric reframing empathy as a flaw—contradicting core Christian values ("a lot of these people self-identify as Christian." - 22:32)
Communication Disconnects:
- Emily, as an autistic communicator, reiterates: "Listen to the words I said. Don't hear what I didn't say." (29:44)

Risks and Realities of Confrontation

Escalation: Addressing bigotry can increase risk for vulnerable people at the table, including children affected by prior trauma.
Personal Capacity: Not all confrontation is beneficial for every person. Emily finds value in objecting for the sake of solidarity, while Lindsay feels the cost is too high if it leads to regret or shame.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (With Timestamps)

"You always have the choice not to show up. ... You can set that boundary." – Emily (02:13)
"Murder bad." – Lindsay, on the Charlie Kirk incident (06:52)
"The goal is not to change their mind. The goal is to soften or create a crack." – Lindsay (51:20)
"When people set boundaries and limits, often people ... react as if someone has aggressed against them, that you setting a boundary ... somehow harms this other person." – Lindsay (30:55)
"Confine your remarks to the weather and the condition of the roads." – Emily, quoting Jane Austen (41:34)

Cultural Symbols & Parables

The Grinch as Parable:
Emily offers a highly personal, alternative reading of "The Grinch Who Stole Christmas," suggesting the Grinch is "autistic and protected himself by withdrawing from the noise." She challenges the narrative that difference needs to be reformed, concluding:

"I think it's okay to be the Grinch if you need to be. Your heart's the right size." (57:10)

Deep Dives & Bonus Context

The History of 'Separation of Church and State'

Emily discusses origins at length, illustrating that the principle is historically more about preventing government subjugation to religious authority, not only about freedom of worship:

"When you’re writing a constitution... that's the real separation: does the Pope tell me what to do? Does the Bible... or does the Emperor decide?" (44:51)

How to Subtly Introduce Dissent

When faced with extremist views, the hosts recommend curiosity clothed in warmth:

“That’s so interesting. Tell me more about that. Tell me how that’s going to impact people of different faiths in this country.” (46:43, Lindsay)

Takeaways & Closing Advice

You Do Not Have to Attend, Engage, or Endure: Opting out of family gatherings is valid self-care.
If You Engage, Have a Goal: Whether it’s to create a crack, protect others, or simply survive the meal.
Boundaries Are Healthy: Don't absorb others' emotional interpretations.
The '3Ds' Give You Options: Direct, Delegate, Distract—choose what fits your safety and capacity.
It’s Okay to Be the Grinch: Self-protection is not wrong, and you don’t have to change to suit others’ comfort.
Protect Yourself—Don’t Steal Christmas (or Anyone’s Stuff): (“You’re not allowed to take anybody’s stuff ... just protect your limits.” - 60:37)

Useful Timestamps

02:07 — Setting boundaries about who to invite/attend
09:18 — Engaging with cult-like belief systems ('cracks')
19:01 — The fragility of extreme beliefs
20:33 — The '3Ds': Direct, Delegate, Distract
30:55 — On boundaries and perceived aggression
41:34 — Jane Austen’s conversational advice
44:51 — Historical perspective on church & state
51:20 — The real aim: cracks, not conversion
57:10 — The permissive 'Grinch' reading

Tone & Language

Empathetic, sometimes humorous, always forthright. Emily and Lindsay model both vulnerability (discussing personal boundaries and hurt) and practical, feminist resolve—reminding listeners to trust their needs and reject the narrative that family harmony is always paramount. Their candor includes moments of exasperation, reflection, and solidarity for those who can’t or won’t tolerate the intolerable.

For listeners overwhelmed by the prospect of holiday gatherings, this episode offers both validation and a practical, permission-filled toolkit grounded in feminist values and deep compassion.

Navigating Holiday Gatherings With Family