No Buy Low Buy

Summary

Podcast Summary: Feminist Survival Project – Episode "No Buy Low Buy"

Release Date: February 14, 2025
Hosts: Emily Nagoski and Amelia Nagoski
Title: No Buy Low Buy

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Overview

In the "No Buy Low Buy" episode of the Feminist Survival Project, hosts Emily and Amelia Nagoski explore their personal journeys toward minimizing consumerism through a deliberate no-buy or low-buy year. They discuss the motivations behind this decision, the challenges they face, and the practical strategies they've implemented to align their spending with their ethical and personal values. The conversation is rich with actionable insights, personal anecdotes, and thoughtful reflections aimed at empowering feminists overwhelmed by the pressures of modern consumer culture.

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1. Introduction to No Buy Low Buy

Amelia kicks off the episode by announcing a new live segment and transitions into discussing the concept of "No Buy Low Buy" (00:02 - 02:07). She states:

"My goal is not to buy any clothes this year because I had to replace my entire wardrobe last year because I changed sizes."
— Amelia [02:07]

Emily echoes this sentiment, sharing her own commitment to reducing consumption without setting strict limits on necessary items like food and skincare products (02:07 - 02:22).

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2. Motivations Behind No Buy Low Buy

Emily outlines two primary reasons for adopting a no-buy low-buy approach:

1. Economic Principles:

   "I don't want to participate in the Trump economy if I can avoid it."
   — Emily [02:35]

   She emphasizes avoiding support for corporations that don't align with their values, citing examples like Amazon and Meta.

2. Decluttering and Sustainability:

   "There's also the ecological impact, right? Like, we reduce our consumerism and we reduce the amount that we are contributing to landfills."
   — Emily [02:48]

   This includes minimizing environmental footprints by reducing waste and avoiding contributing to pollution.

Amelia adds personal necessity as a motivator, having had to overhaul her wardrobe due to changing sizes, which made her resolve to limit new clothing purchases (02:07).

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3. Aligning Spending with Values

The hosts delve into how their purchasing decisions reflect their ethical stances:

• Supporting Ethical Businesses:

  "We are also going to continue to spend money on the least unethical groceries we can."
  — Emily [11:22]

  They prioritize buying from local, humane, and environmentally responsible sources, even if it means paying premium prices.

• Avoiding Corporations with Contradictory Practices:

  "I canceled my Audible subscription, which I have been using since long before Amazon acquired them."
  — Emily [04:04]

  This includes discontinuing subscriptions and services from companies misaligned with their ethics.

Amelia discusses closing her Twitch account due to its ownership by Amazon and shifting her viewing habits to more ethical platforms (04:05 - 04:09).

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4. Practical Strategies for Reducing Consumption

Use What You Have:

"Use your libraries in your no buy situation. And then there's stuff I'm just gonna slow down on, like bath and body care products."
— Emily [15:58]

Both hosts advocate for maximizing the use of current possessions before considering new purchases.

Wait Before Buying:

"If I feel a desire for a thing, I'm gonna wait at least a week before I actually purchase anything."
— Emily [16:00]

This strategy helps curb impulsive buying and ensures that purchases are necessary and thoughtful.

Prioritizing Needs Over Wants:

"Do what you got to do with the resources you have available. And if you don't have the resources to make choices solely based on your, you know, racial and social justice."
— Amelia [05:54]

They emphasize making purchases that fulfill genuine needs rather than succumbing to consumer-driven desires.

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5. Navigating Challenges and Avoiding Consumer Traps

Dealing with Subscriptions and Hidden Costs:

Amelia shares negative experiences with subscription services like DoorDash and BetterHelp, highlighting issues with unauthorized charges and poor customer service:

"They just started charging me for it. So no buy, low buy."
— Amelia [52:07]

Emily emphasizes the importance of being vigilant about where your money goes and understanding that:

"If you're not paying for it, you're the product."
— Emily [17:34]

Avoiding Recreational Shopping:

"You're not gonna use that much of your time and attention and energy trying to find shit."
— Amelia [49:16]

They discuss how shopping can become a numbing hobby and advocate for reclaiming time and attention for more fulfilling activities.

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6. Personal Experiences and Adaptations

Amelia's Wardrobe Overhaul:

"I ended up with two pairs. One I bought new and one I bought secondhand. The secondhand ones are not great, but they're waterproof and casual and fine."
— Amelia [49:42]

Emily's Selective Spending:

"If you have $55 and a candle... that's a ton of money."
— Emily [10:38]

They share how they've adapted their spending habits to prioritize items that bring joy and align with their values, such as ethical candles and high-quality, sustainable foods.

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7. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Empowering Consumer Choices:

"You are the boss of your home. You get to choose."
— Emily [60:12]

The hosts reinforce that individuals have the power to make conscious spending decisions that reflect their values and contribute to their well-being.

Encouragement and Support:

"Do what the best you can with the resources you have available."
— Amelia [06:09]

They encourage listeners to reflect on their consumption habits and make choices that enhance their wellness without judgment.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Amelia: "My goal is not to buy any clothes this year because I had to replace my entire wardrobe last year because I changed sizes." [02:07]
• Emily: "I don't want to participate in the Trump economy if I can avoid it." [02:35]
• Emily: "If you're not paying for it, you're the product." [17:34]
• Amelia: "They are stealing it from you." [51:52]
• Emily: "Do not follow my tips on, like, spend more money on your ground beef." [43:02]
• Amelia: "Better help is selling your information." [54:43]
• Emily: "You are the boss of your home. You get to choose." [60:12]

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Key Takeaways

1. Align Spending with Personal Values: Prioritize purchases that reflect ethical beliefs and sustainability.
2. Minimize Clutter and Reduce Consumerism: Use existing resources fully before acquiring new items to reduce environmental impact.
3. Implement Mindful Spending Strategies: Employ techniques like waiting periods before purchases and setting clear priorities to avoid impulsive buying.
4. Stay Vigilant Against Consumer Traps: Be aware of hidden costs, unauthorized charges, and the manipulative nature of online shopping platforms.
5. Empower Personal Agency: Recognize the power to make conscious spending decisions that enhance personal well-being and align with broader ethical standards.

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Conclusion

In this episode of the Feminist Survival Project, Emily and Amelia Nagoski provide a compelling narrative on the importance of mindful consumption. Through personal stories and practical advice, they inspire listeners to reassess their own spending habits, encouraging a shift toward more intentional and values-driven consumerism. The discussion underscores the significant impact that individual choices can have on both personal well-being and broader societal and environmental issues.

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Transcript

[Amelia]

Hi, everybody. This is Amelia. I wanted to let you know that I'm going to be trying something new on Fridays at 4. I'm going to be going live on our YouTube channel. That's YouTube.com feministsurvivalproject. I'll be going live Fridays at 4, Eastern Time, and from February 21st through the end of March, we'll be answering questions, singing songs, and generally just having a nice time. I hope you'll join me.

[Emily]

That's me with my Lacroix. The Key lime Lacroix is quite special. It's different from lime lacroix. I don't like the lime Lacroix. The Key lime Lacroix I poured into a cup and an actual fruit seed came out.

[Amelia]

What?

[Emily]

Yeah. Key lime La Croix. Not sponsored.

[Amelia]

I'm drinking peppermint tea.

[Emily]

The La Croix. If you're listening, I drink about 8 La Croix a day.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

So I'm made mostly of Lacroix.

[Amelia]

In my brain, it's always Lacroix. And I cannot make myself say La Croix unless I hear you say it.

[Emily]

Yeah. It's not French. It's Wisconsin.

[Amelia]

Then why isn't it La Croix?

[Emily]

Because it's the name of the river. Probably settled by French speakers.

[Amelia]

Why wasn't that Lacroix?

[Emily]

It probably was at first. Why are we talking about this?

[Amelia]

You started it.

[Emily]

Okay. So what we're talking about is a thing that Emelia and I spontaneously decided to do without talking to each other. And then I mentioned it, and Amelia was like, oh, yeah, me too. Which is a no buy slash low buy or no spend, low spend year. Right.

[Amelia]

That's the thing you're doing specifically. My goal is not to buy any clothes this year because I had to replace my entire wardrobe last year because I changed sizes.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

So my goal is just to, like, have a wardrobe for a year and not have to fricking buy anything new anymore. Right.

[Emily]

So the first question to ask when you're thinking about a no buyer, low buy year is why? Why would you do this? And I have two really big reasons. My first one, to be totally honest, is I don't want to participate in the Trump economy.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

If I can avoid it. My second is related to our decluttering episode, which is that I don't want to bring new things into the house that are going to continue to live in the house.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

So I haven't set any particular limit on things that get used up, like food and Lacroix, but, like beverages and skincare products and bath bombs like those get used up and they exit the house, sometimes creating trash. Often not. But there's also the ecological impact, right? Like, we reduce our consumerism and we reduce the amount that we are contributing to landfills and to wish cycling that actually ends up, like, in the ocean, poisoning a fish, which eventually poisons us. And there's also the benefit of not participating in the economy of corporations that don't align with your values. Much like Amazon. The Washington Post withdrew their endorsement of Kamala Harris because Jeff Bezos said not to. A lot of people responded by canceling their Washington Post subscription. Yeah, I responded by canceling our Amazon prime, which is a thing I wanted to do.

[Amelia]

I also canceled my Twitch subscription and closed my Twitch account because Twitch is owned by Amazon.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

So now I watch the streamers that I watch on Twitch. I watch on YouTube.

[Emily]

I canceled my Audible subscription, which, like, I've been using Audible since long before Amazon acquired them. It is.

[Amelia]

Oh, that's.

[Emily]

That's a hard one for me. But in my cancellation of my subscription. Why are you doing this? Because. Because of Bezos. And, like, I wish. I wish Amazon had never acquired you because I've been using this since 2002. Yeah, so that was. That was a rough one. But there are a lot of companies that have just been, like, capitulating.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Facebook meta.

[Amelia]

Yeah, that is to say.

[Emily]

So I have, like, I have 120,000 followers on Instagram, and I have been like, what do I do about my participation in Meta? This isn't about low buy, no buy. But it's like, you've got to make choices about, like, what are the companies that just immediately were like, hell, yeah, here's an excuse to eliminate our DEI program.

[Amelia]

Yeah, yeah.

[Emily]

McDonald's, Walmart, which there were already plenty of reasons not to buy stuff at Walmart. Let me add the caveat that I have the financial privilege to make these choices. And also the physical ability, the delivery of stuff to your home by Whole Foods and Amazon when you can't leave the house or when it costs you energy and physical pain to leave your house and stuff gets delivered, or if buying stuff at the absolute lowest price you can find is necessary because of your financial situation, we are not recommending that you make choices. Like, as the Project for Awesome says, make responsible financial choices.

[Amelia]

Yeah, you could. I mean, as you were talking about with the decluttering episode, you. You do the best you can with the resources you have available. And if you don't have the resources to make choices solely based on your, you know, racial and social justice, to.

[Emily]

Buy Your books at full price from the local bookstore.

[Amelia]

Right? Yeah. Like, do what you got to do. You're doing the best you can. That's fine. And there is no judgment from us for anyone making whatever decisions they have to make.

[Emily]

Absolutely.

[Amelia]

To do what they got to do. It would be ideal if you could make those decisions consciously and with full awareness. Like, I don't think anybody needs to get Chick Fil A. No one's needs are being met by Chick Fil A that aren't being met elsewhere.

[Emily]

By Popeyes.

[Amelia]

Yeah. Like, much better by Popeyes or Canes. And they don't support, you know, gay conversion therapy.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

And then lie that they don't, but then still do it under the table anyway. And then lie that they stopped and then still do it anyway. Like, nobody needs Chick Fil A. So, like, I'm gonna judge you if you buy Chick Fil A. That's true. I am gonna do that. I'm gonna judge you if you. If you pay for Harry Potter products, I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna judge you if you do those two things because you don't need those things. And you can buy unlicensed Harry Potter stuff that does not profit a bigot, which is Joanna KKK Rowling. Just making decisions about where you shop and how you shop in general. No judgment from me, but those two things I will judge you for. Okay, can I also say that a third, a fourth maybe reason why people would want to do, like, no buy low buy is, like, for me, I spent hundreds of hours shopping online for clothes last year because literally every shoe I owned was too small. I've worn the same size shoe since 1989.

[Emily]

Yeah. When you say you change sizes, even your feet change size.

[Amelia]

My feet hadn't changed sizes for 30.

[Emily]

Since we were sixth grade plus years.

[Amelia]

Since the sixth grade. And we're going to be 48 this year.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

So, like, 35 years of shoes. I've always been the same size. And then last year, my feet got bigger, and I had to replace literally every shoe I owned. And trying to do that with secondhand shoes mostly, like, it takes so much time.

[Emily]

Yes.

[Amelia]

And I spent so much time, and I just want to, like, spend my time doing other things instead.

[Emily]

Yes.

[Amelia]

And I think a lot of people default to shopping as, like, either a recreational activity or a soothing activity. And I think that if we use some other thing that maybe connects us with other people instead of shopping, that we might, you know.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

We might be able to use that time to increase our wellness Rather than just to have more stuff.

[Emily]

Our decision making process about what we would.

[Amelia]

Oh, Shelly.

[Emily]

Shelly's having her moment of the morning. She probably just pooped and wants to tell us about it. Thank you so much, Shelly. Okay, so stuff that I am spending money on despite my no buy low by year healthcare stuff. No scrimping.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Because improving my health this year is like priority number one. Being a person.

[Amelia]

Yeah. I spend $6 a day or so on supplements and medication.

[Emily]

Yeah. And that's just where we are right now. That's absurd. And that I need a lot of health support from.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Not cutting things I subscribe to. Including the Patreons that I support.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And including my monthly candle subscription.

[Amelia]

Y'all.

[Emily]

If you have 50 or $60 a month to blow on just like something that's beautiful and smells delightful and you're a candle person. Wax Oil Wick is the name of the company. I learned about them because it's run by the relative of one of the sex educators who co hosted an event with me. And this cousin came to the event and gave me a candle and I was like, fuck, this is the best candle I've ever burned in my entire life. So I've subscribed monthly ever since then. And it brings it. If you. This is the way Amelia taught me actually to think about money. In one hand I have this candle and the other fragrance y stuff that comes with it because they'll be like a fabric spray or a room spray or a perfume. And then, and, and then in the other hand I've got $55. Is this $55 worth of happy? Do I have the $55 and is it 50? I have the $55.

[Amelia]

That's not how I talk about it sometimes.

[Emily]

Well, sometimes you talk about like you can have the cash or you can have the thing.

[Amelia]

Yeah. That's the main thing is like would I rather have this candle or this $55.

[Emily]

And I'd rather have like when it gets delivered, it's in this beautiful box and I get this moment of joy of opening the box and in January to feel. Little card that I mounted on my desk and it says, instead of setting a million goals, pick your vibe for 20, 25. Let this card remind you to create moments that just. That feel just right. Calm, joyful, adventurous or whatever lights you up. I love this thing so much. I'm not going to cut that. And it's like, that's a. That's a ton of money. That's.

[Amelia]

That's some rhetorical niceness lights you up.

[Emily]

Get it?

[Amelia]

Because candles.

[Emily]

It lights you up. Right. Like, it's so good. We grew up poor. I was broke as an adult until, like, 2016. 2017.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Maybe even 2018, because that's when we could finally pay our student loans.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

So, like, $55 a month is a huge amount of money for me, but that's how much joy it brings me. We are also going to continue to spend money on the least unethical groceries we can. We can afford to pay $10 a pound for ground beef that comes from a local cow that we know lived a delightful life eating grass in a pasture and was processed humanely. And that's a ridiculous amount of money to spend on ground beef. But it aligns with our values. It aligns with my nutritional needs. And we're going to continue to pay that money for groceries. Coffee, ditto. Most coffee comes from very terrible labor conditions. And we pay extra for specialty coffee where the labor conditions where it's, like, owned by the workers and they benefit from the sale of extraordinarily good coffee.

[Amelia]

I feel like maybe your list is not super relatable.

[Emily]

Oh, God, yeah. The next thing on my list is Epsom salts, basic pet care, like, food and vet stuff. Like, you just don't scrimp on that stuff. You have an obligation to the animals you adopt. And also charitable giving and mutual aid. We have a budget for, like, when we see a GoFundMe, we don't know the person, but, like, shit, like, we have it. So let's kick in some. The way I calculate how much to give to a GoFundMe in case people are looking for a standard is I look at how much they've raised so far, and I divide it by the number of people who've donated so far. And that gives me the mean or the like measure of central tendency of how much people are donating. And I give a little more than that just to kick the average up. So that's another. So those are the things that I'm. But things I'm going to avoid buying, like you. Clothes, shoes, bags. I have enough bags. There is no bag need that could possibly arise that is not met by my current collection of bags.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Pet unnecessary things.

[Amelia]

Toys.

[Emily]

Pet clothes. Toys. We have so many pet toys. We don't need any additional pet. Pet toys and blankets. Like, we have so many soft blankets for the dogs. I'm going to call a moratorium on pet blankets. Tech items like phones and computers and televisions and anything electronic. Like, we have all the things that we need. And one of the other points of privilege is that, like, we have all the things we need. We don't need a new thing. And I have this. The most likely thing to break for me is my phone. And I pay the monthly. Like, no matter what happens, if my phone breaks, I can replace it.

[Amelia]

Yeah. Throw it out the window. Get a new phone.

[Emily]

I literally call throw it out the window. Warranty.

[Amelia]

Yeah, yeah.

[Emily]

Cause it doesn't matter. Like, did it get wet? I can replace it. Did I actually throw it out the window? I can replace it. Plants and the related items that go with plants. Have enough plants. I should take care of the plants I have and propagate the plants I have. And plants and books. I'll talk about books a little more in a second. But borrowing library books is supporting the author. I say this as the author of books. I love it when people get our books out of the library because the library bought the books. So borrowing books, if you're worried about supporting authors and, like, what's the best way to support authors? But you're like, I don't have $25 for this book, or I don't have $8 for this paperback. Borrow it from the library. If your library doesn't have it, request it so the library knows to buy it. That is supporting an author. Glorious. Use your libraries in your no buy situation. And then there's stuff I'm just gonna slow down on, like, bath and body care products.

[Amelia]

Do you have, like, a numerical limit?

[Emily]

No. What I have is a process of, like, if I feel a desire for a thing, I'm gonna wait at least a week before I actually purchase anything. Cause I am not gonna run out anytime soon. Apart from Epsom salts, which I run out of on the regular restaurant food. Eating out, getting takeout, doing that less. Because, like, cooking at home is cheaper. And I get to decide all of the ingredients that are in the food and household cleaning products.

[Amelia]

Again, can I say that, Emily, Cooking at home is a pretty big sacrifice because you're not a great cook.

[Emily]

And I don't enjoy it.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

At all. What I do, like, is science. And so I follow things like Serious Eats, where they talk about, like, the chemistry of why this recipe does this thing. They do a lot of, like, myth busting. So, yeah. The other thing about books, this is the next category. So as you're thinking about no buy, low buy, why are you doing it? What are the categories of things you're just not going to bring into your home? And then there's the use what you have rule. So I'm gonna. I have a. Like, many people who love books. I have a big pile of books I haven't read. I'm gonna read the books I have instead of buying new books, and I'm gonna use the subscription and entertainment that I pay for every month instead of spending so much time on social media. The thing is, social media is free because your attention is the product. The product.

[Amelia]

You are the product.

[Emily]

If you're not paying for it, you're the product. Right?

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

So I'm gonna spend less time on social media and spend more time using the subscriptions that I pay for. And that's all I have for, like, use what I have. And of course, wear the clothes that I have, especially if they're things that I don't wear. If they're like, tucked away. Like, wear it this year. And if I don't wear it this year, get rid of it because I didn't use it over the course of an entire year. Also work to, like, when I buy things, buy things that cause, like, harm reduction. Like places that are like the local farmers market and hyperlocal places. Like, we have a local co op where we can go to buy a lot of groceries. Is it more expensive? Oh, yeah. We have a local butcher. Is it more expensive? Yeah. Yeah. But I'm buying less so I can spend money in a way that feels more ethical to me. I could. Instead of spending it on stuff I don't need, want, or use, I'm spending that money in places that feel better to me. Buying secondhand, as you mentioned.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Costco has been a fucking ace.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Yeah. Their shareholders voted overwhelmingly to continue their DEI efforts.

[Amelia]

Nice.

[Emily]

Yeah. In the face of the federal government being like, we're not doing this. Which corporations took as permission not to do it either, which is bogus. I also use Grove Collaborative. Is it more expensive? Yes. And is pretty ethical. Trader Joe's and Aldi so far have not just completely buckled under pressure so far.

[Amelia]

I don't shop at Trader Joe's because.

[Emily]

Yeah, they're worker. I know.

[Amelia]

No, I mean, yeah, but they decided that they were not going to do curbside delivery where they're gonna bring your groceries out to you. The only way you can shop at Trader Joe's is to go into their store, walk up and down the aisles, get what you want, stand in line, old school. They don't. They're like, if you have disabilities, we don't need you to shop here. And I was like, okay, great. Then I'M not gonna.

[Emily]

Well, their business model is like Target. Like you go in and you go in for two things and you walk out with a full cart. That's.

[Amelia]

But you know what? Target has spots, curbside delivery dedicated in their parking lot where an employee will come and bring your stuff out and put it in your car for you.

[Emily]

That's totally.

[Amelia]

You know what Target does now? Bags are optional. You can click a thing that says bring my own bags and they will not put your stuff in bags. And you can put it in your own bags in the trunk of your car.

[Emily]

And they have already cut their DEI programs and things like their deliberate effort to buy from black owned businesses. Well, fuck yeah. I mean, so I, I have Target on my list of harm reduction places, but it's like last on the list. Whole Foods obviously is owned by Amazon, so that's not on the list. Ulta is better than Sephora. If makeup and skincare and hair care stuff are a thing that you buy and it's not just like drugstore things. Ulta instead of Sephora is a little better. Walgreens is. Has not yet capitulated. These things may change. You got to keep paying attention. Am I putting my money in a place that aligns with my values? And bear in mind that the federal rules around DEI programs only apply to places that receive federal funding. Corporations don't receive federal funding. They absolutely do not have to eliminate their DEI programs to protect their federal funding. They're just making this choice because they can now. Because they've gotten permission.

[Amelia]

Yeah. Now they have permission.

[Emily]

Yeah. There are ways that this is easier for me than for other people because there's a lot of stuff I already wasn't spending money on that a lot of people spend a lot of money on already. Like haircuts.

[Amelia]

Yay.

[Emily]

We cut our own hair sometimes. You cut my hair?

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

I bleach my own hair and color my own hair.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

I don't get nail stuff done. I don't get waxing done. I don't blame buy makeup beyond truly the minimum for work. And I have standards for makeup and skincare. It has to be petroleum free, cruelty free. I try to do plastic free, but that's virtually impossible. And also I'm a like total cheapskate because I grew up poor and I was broke for a long time. So my favorite skin cream, my skin cream that I have used since 2002 was discontinued. And I have a couple of jars left and I'm gonna use those. But I asked Blue sky for recommendations of other Skin creams. And there are people who are paying literally 10 times what I paid for this cream. Jeez, like $50 for a two ounce jar.

[Amelia]

But you do have a monthly candle subscription, so.

[Emily]

Right. Like I'm not saying you're a little weird. My priorities are what my prior are and the reality is like I've been using this cheap ass skincare cream that is cruelty free and petroleum free for years, decades. And there are people out there who are buying skin cream every month for 50. They're spending on skin cream. What I spend on like special beautiful candles. So everybody makes and like nails and hair and like everybody chooses what their priorities are. And if for you like going to get your hair done is like feels to you like the specialness of this candle subscription feels for me. Like do you do your thing and like have a budget and allocate funds in the way that feels right to you? I also like don't do Starbucks or Dunkin or.

[Amelia]

Right.

[Emily]

Like I don't like we, we pay for our coffee that we drink at.

[Amelia]

Home and you pay just about as much as somebody who would have gone out for their coffee. Right. Because we spend fair trade but it aligns with your values.

[Emily]

Right. And we're not getting single use cups.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And fancy, like we don't drive fancy cars. We have, we have Volkswagen Golfs that I'm going to drive this car into the ground or until it approaches 100,000 miles. Because I have absorbed the idea that past 100,000 miles your trade in value drops wildly. And so 100,000 miles is sort of the cap on a car for me. Every car that I've traded in mostly has been like, it's at a hundred, it's approaching 100,000 miles. And we don't like eat at fancy restaurants and I don't wear fancy clothes mostly.

[Amelia]

And so can I ask about your Disney budget?

[Emily]

Yeah, that's. So then I have the list of stuff I haven't fully examined. And vacation travel is first on the list of like I haven't yet been able to tolerate thinking about my vacation budget.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

I truly just don't know. Truly. I just don't know my need for vacation travel. We're Disney pass holders. That's a chunk of money every year. And then there's the trips which are a chung of money.

[Amelia]

Yeah, you fly there and find a place to stay.

[Emily]

Now that I have my beautiful. Like we did a lot of house. We spent a ton of money putting an addition on our house as well as repairing some shit that was like, desperately broken. And I have this bathroom that I just adore. And I need less vacation 100% because my house is so wonderful now.

[Amelia]

Yeah. When we moved to this house, I needed less vacation than.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

When I lived in a house without a deep enough bathtub.

[Emily]

Yeah. Which is like, again, you make choices about where you put your money. Yeah. So another, like, threat is, like, we are done with home additions, even though I have more ideas about things we could change. Like, we're just not gonna do. We're not gonna spend any of that money this year because I don't want to participate in Trump's economy except for.

[Amelia]

My candle subscription and Disney trips.

[Emily]

And maybe some Disney trips. Yeah.

[Amelia]

Yeah. I mean, we are planning to go.

[Emily]

For a birthday for our birthday, for example. Yes.

[Amelia]

That's happening.

[Emily]

So those are the ways that I have been thinking about no buy, low buy. It sounds like your only true no buy is, like, close.

[Amelia]

Yeah. And I am also. I did reduce my Amazon spending.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

Like, I'm gonna. I got a subscription to Thrive Market, which is a subscription service where you get access to discounted, mostly packaged food, but also frozen food that has been vetted by them as being fair trade and least environmental impact.

[Emily]

That's what Grove Collaborative is for. Cleaning products and skincare.

[Amelia]

Yeah. So I do have that. So I can get the, you know, more responsible packaged goods without having to.

[Emily]

Shop at Whole Foods. And has it been good?

[Amelia]

I've only had one month so far, and it's okay. I mean, I'm not ready to be like, it's awesome. But I mean, that's all right. They definitely have more, like, stuff for specific dietary restrictions. And you can shop by filtering by dietary restriction. And because of my health situation, I have some dietary restrictions that come and go depending on where I'm at, health wise. So it's nice that I can shop and filter by dietary restrictions. So that is. That's nice.

[Emily]

Gluten free, low histamine, blah, blah, blah.

[Amelia]

Yeah, exactly. Well, not low histamine. I have to. I have to do that.

[Emily]

You have to know.

[Amelia]

But, like, I'm. I'm practiced at that, so it's fine.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

Anyway, that's a change that I made to shop at Thrive Market instead of Whole Foods. And in general. Yeah. That's my really only two active things that I've changed.

[Emily]

I deleted the Amazon app from my phone. I noticed that I was spending time just scrolling on Amazon like it was a social app.

[Amelia]

Yay. Which I've never had the app on my phone.

[Emily]

It's Better. I noticed that I was using shopping that way as a way to distract myself and numb out. So I removed it. And again, I am using what I pay for because otherwise my. Like, when I click on stuff, when I search for things, I'm giving Amazon data.

[Amelia]

Right. So that's. And that's one of the primary things that I wanted to change is not to shop recreationally anymore.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

Because it had become a habit when I had to replace literally every piece of clothing in my closet, including every pair of shoes.

[Emily]

Yeah. Like, you have to do it every day. Cause it takes so long to find the right thing.

[Amelia]

Right. And when you're looking for stuff secondhand, you gotta keep searching for like what's in stock now. Yeah, yeah.

[Emily]

And secondhand places like Mercari and Poshmark. Because it's just individuals, there's going to be a mixed bag of how successful those transactions are.

[Amelia]

Right, Exactly. Thredup is more reliable in terms of that. But there's also new stuff every day. Like, I am a. I am like the highest ranking Thredup customer. Like, you have, like, rewards programs for like the most common shoppers. Like, I am the highest one you can be, you know, because I spent so much money at Thredup last year.

[Emily]

So if you find yourself shopping as a way, as a hobby, as a way to numb out, know that your attention is a product that you are giving to businesses. And is this a business to whom you want to donate?

[Amelia]

And consumerism has been sold to us as a hobby that, like, being a consumer is an activity that we can participate in. And it is a toxic thing to do, to be, not to do. Like being a consumer is necessary. You have to consume things because you're human and you have needs and desires and that's important. But like, to be sucked into consumerism as a habit, as a pastime, as a thing that you do instead of connecting to other people, instead of looking to your community for resources.

[Emily]

That's. That's. Yeah, that's the.

[Amelia]

That's the. Whoosh. Nope, that's. The white supremacist is heteropatriarchal, late capitalist machine looking to exploit you.

[Emily]

Yeah. Looking to exploit your natural hunter, forager, gatherer instincts. There's a store at our mall that opened recently that buys Amazon returns and sells them to you at deeply discounted prices. So you don't know what's in the store. You go into the store because you want to hunt. You want to see what there is. You want to get the best deal.

[Amelia]

Yeah, that's like HomeGoods and Marshalls and TJ.

[Emily]

TJ Maxx. Yeah.

[Amelia]

Sierra Trading Boats. Never the same place twice.

[Emily]

Yeah. So you, you go in and like see what there is and like feel cool because you got a great deal on the thing.

[Amelia]

Look at this bargain.

[Emily]

I found the retail was absurd and not arbitrary, but based on like the most it could get you to pay.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Grounded in the least they could pay to have it produced, which includes not paying the labor a decent livable wage.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

So that kind of, that kind of shopping is participating. And like if you just love shopping, we are not the ones who are going to judge you. We're letting you know that like you got taught that that's a hobby.

[Amelia]

Yeah, yeah. By, by a system that is, that is using your natural desire to, to suck you dry of your energy, of your attention, of your money. And, and when we, and I am using this year especially because I'm, I mean if I change sizes again, I'll do what I have to do, but like fingers crossed that I'm going to be this size for at least another year so I can use this opportunity to give my attention to things that I choose instead of these stores that, you know, profit from my eyeballs.

[Emily]

Can we talk about. So this, this store that buys Amazon open box stuff is linked to thrifting. So in our family, we have a family member who is a hoarder and how the house gets hoarded is through thrifting.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Going and buying stuff at just an unbelievable value.

[Amelia]

Well, not value, a low price.

[Emily]

Cheap, cheap, cheap, low, low price. And can you believe what a potentially useful thing or what a cool, neat thing this is? Purchased for a couple of bucks and then it just like lives in a pile forever and then gets peed on by the rodents who live in the home.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Cause it's not a good situation. And there are people who thrift who like, you know, you got multiple kids and you need to close those kids and you're got a low income. Thrifting is a great way to buy kids clothes. It's a great way to buy kitchen stuff that could be very, very important and useful in your home for way less donated by somebody who bought it. They bought this instant pot. Totally sure that they were going to use this instant pot all the time. Three years later they haven't taken it out of the box and they're like, I'm going to donate this to the Goodwill or the thrift store. And so yeah. And if you are thrifting for the sake of the hunt that is the same thing as the people who go to any retail store or department store of any kind just for the hunt. Does that make sense?

[Amelia]

Yeah. Just. Is that your hobby and how you want to spend your time? And I would say that it's way less dangerous to do it secondhand than, you know, online.

[Emily]

From a money spending point of view, and potentially from a supporting a business point of view, there are a lot of good things Goodwill does in addition to selling stuff secondhand for low prices.

[Amelia]

And we can talk about how different charitable organizations have different values. Like, I won't shop at Salvation army because they work against abortion access.

[Emily]

Yeah. And because it's a religious organization, they're allowed to discriminate against LGBTQIA two plus people.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Right. Yeah, me too. Don't go to Salvation Army. That's. That's my choice.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Flea markets and garage sales. Garage sales, you guys, ebay, e bay, eBay. These are all using shopping as a hobby. And I would recommend. This is just like, my recommendation. You don't have to do anything I say, but if you are a person who loves flea markets because they're freaking fun, there's all this stuff that's so neat to go hunting for. All the cool, neat stuff. Right. And garage sales. It's also. People love looking at other people's shit. It is so fun to see what your neighbors are getting rid of.

[Amelia]

And, like, as a community activity, like, I. I think that's kind of like. That's so cool. Go talk to your neighbors. Go meet some strangers and be like, oh, yeah, I had one of these too, and I can't get rid of it either, you know?

[Emily]

Yeah. Buy one thing to, like, support your neighbor. And if it's not a thing you actually need or have a home for, just donate it. That's fine. They will never know. Because since you've listened to our decluttering episode, you have created an established home for your donation pile, your donation box, your donation bag. Right, sure. Yeah. You've done that. I have that highly recommend it.

[Amelia]

I have not found a place for my donation box yet, but. Well, I'll work it out.

[Emily]

Yeah. You have a cabinet trash thing, which is super fancy and great.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And it does mean that you don't have, like, a space outside of a cabinet to put stuff that doesn't have a place in your home.

[Amelia]

Yeah. I mean, I have a little waste basket in every room, so surely I can just have, like, a little donate basket in one of the rooms. I'll work it out. It's Fine.

[Emily]

You'll find a way. But so my recommendation is that if you just, like, truly enjoy these hobbies, before you bring something into your home, think ahead of where it's going to live. And, like, if your home is close to full, know what you're going to get rid of to create space for it. Like, our kitchen cabinets are pretty close to full. We just got a 14 cup food processor last night. I made butter in 8 minutes out of a pint of heavy cream. It's fricking delicious. It took almost no time. And, like, we love it. And I got rid of three different appliances that we were not using in order to create space for this one machine that we have already used more than all those other three combined.

[Amelia]

I've had a food processor that I really like for several years now, and I've never made butter. Never even occurred to me to make butter.

[Emily]

Oh, yeah. Make butter with just like the standard blade.

[Amelia]

Okay.

[Emily]

Takes about eight minutes in ours.

[Amelia]

Maybe I will.

[Emily]

I'm still learning how to use it. I'm not great at it. I accidentally pureed my sofrito.

[Amelia]

Oh, yeah.

[Emily]

I'm still learning.

[Amelia]

Takes practice.

[Emily]

But when I purchased it, I knew. I purchased it in December. It's not part of my no buy. But we, like, I got rid of enough stuff to create space in our already close to full kitchen cabinets.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

So it also doesn't live on the countertop because we have limited counter space, like many people, and we do not have. We cannot afford to just like allocate permanent counter space to a food processor that I don't use every day. The only. There are two appliances that live on our kitchen counters. One is the coffee maker, which we use literally every day. And the other is the toaster oven, which we use almost every day.

[Amelia]

You have a very small mid century kitchen.

[Emily]

We have a small mid century kitchen with limited counter space. But those counters are beautiful. They are.

[Amelia]

They're very, very pretty.

[Emily]

Yeah. We have concrete kitchen counters.

[Amelia]

I. I do leave my food processor out on the counter, but I have. You have way more counter space than me.

[Emily]

So much counter space.

[Amelia]

I do. I do.

[Emily]

You have an island.

[Amelia]

I have an island. My kitchen's really nice.

[Emily]

We have a wall oven. Okay.

[Amelia]

But when you moved into your house, you already had a wall oven and.

[Emily]

You had tables from approximately 1983.

[Amelia]

When I moved into my house, the kitchen was made of mold.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

We had to strip it to the studs to make it habitable by humans.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

To make it safe for occupation, we had to rip it down and replace everything in the kitchen for safety.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

So I got to design a kitchen from scratch.

[Emily]

If the word remediation is involved in your home renovation.

[Amelia]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Mold remediation was step one for this house that had been unoccupied for five years.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

It had sat vacant. It had a raccoon living in it.

[Emily]

And the humidity on the Cape is. Wow.

[Amelia]

It's made of moisture 100% and has.

[Emily]

Been going up at a very rapid rate for the past 20 years.

[Amelia]

How do you know that?

[Emily]

Rich showed me a graph.

[Amelia]

I know that because I talked to a woodworker who was like, yeah, I've been measuring the humidity because I work with wood, and the humidity is just skyrocketing on the Cape. It didn't used to be like this. And I was like. I assumed it was because of water. Anyway. Anyway, there was crazy mold. So I had this amazing opportunity to design the kitchen I wanted.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

And you know what I got? Counter space.

[Emily]

Yeah. Yeah. We didn't get that.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

We got the kitchen layout that we had.

[Amelia]

So the one luxury that I have that you don't have.

[Emily]

Yeah. So we had a wall. Oh, walls. Every time we used this wall oven from 1984, which looked gorgeous. Both of us very much enjoyed how it looked, but we couldn't use it without setting off the smoke alarms.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

So we lived without an actual oven for a number of years. We just got a new oven this past year. That's.

[Amelia]

Have we mentioned that Emily doesn't really cook much?

[Emily]

Yeah, Emily. Emily doesn't cook much.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

We cooked Thanksgiving turkey breast in the toaster oven.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

It wasn't great.

[Amelia]

Anyway, we're talking about low buy, no buy. And one of the reasons that people do low buy, no buy, as we're talking about is because they don't have space for all the things.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

And so not acquiring more things because you don't have space for it.

[Emily]

So if shopping is a really valuable entertainment for you, if you're going to bring something into your home, have a plan ahead of time of where you're going to put it and what you're going to get rid of to create space for it.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And I want to talk to people who have, like, hobbies that require stuff like crafting and sewing and plants.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Again, container concept. Thank you. Dani K. White. Like, you can have as much as will fit in the space available and still have the stuff you need, all accessible and easy to get to, like, with one hand so you don't have to brace your Shelf full of stuff to pull out the one thing you want so that everything doesn't come out with it. Amelia's laughing because she knows exactly what I mean. It fits. Look, I can push.

[Amelia]

I can fit it in there.

[Emily]

Just because it's not usable, I can't get to it. But it's there. Yeah. If it's hard to get to, it's gonna feel. It's gonna give you a sympathetic or a dorsal feeling instead of the vengeful feeling that our hobby should give us.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Like, if shopping feels ventral for you, if it truly feels like connection and joy and peace. Spectacular. And let's not ruin our peace at home by bringing in more stuff than we can easily manage. Does that make sense?

[Amelia]

Yeah. Low buy, no buy. So there's a lot of reasons to do it and a lot of reasons to do it ethical and practical.

[Emily]

And sometimes it's about saving money. And when it's about saving money, like, absolutely. Do not follow my tips on, like, spend more money on your ground beef.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Just buy the cheapest ground beef you can get. Buy it the day before it expires. 50% off, $1.99 a pound instead of $10 a pound, which is a stupid price to pay for ground beef. The eggs we buy have a note. I describe it as having a note from the chickens, but it's a handwritten note from the lady whose chickens they are. That's how local our eggs are. But they cost almost a dollar each.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

It's a stupid amount of money to spend on eggs. But also, if we don't. We're recording this at a time when we don't yet know whether or not RFK Jr. Is going to be confirmed as the Secretary of HHS. And I'm interested in food safety.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And hyperlocal is one of the ways to increase food safety.

[Amelia]

I did also in this effort not to buy food from toxic companies. I subscribed to Cape Cod Local Fishing Co Op. So I gave them $200 in advance to say, I'm gonna want some fish in the next three months. Go fish me some fish. So that, like, funds the shipping, the fishing expeditions and lets them know that there's a guaranteed market for their. For their fish.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

And so then I gradually spend that $200 I gave them over a couple of months, and I say, I want fish this week, and I pick which fish that they caught that I want.

[Emily]

Yeah. And it's what they caught. So it's what's in season and it's what the Local current law says is acceptable to fish for sustainability reasons. Chances are all of that is going to go away. And whether or not people choose to follow those rules is going to become more and more about how the individual organization chooses to operate.

[Amelia]

Yeah. Well, because I live on the Cape, there's a, there's. This is an, this is a thing I have access to that probably most people don't. I know it's not relatable, but in.

[Emily]

Western Massachusetts, I don't have access to that.

[Amelia]

No, you don't.

[Emily]

So.

[Amelia]

But this is, this is one thing that I was like, I have access to this, so I'm gonna do it.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

There's also a lady down the street from me who has chickens who puts out like cooler chests of eggs.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

And a box. And you just leave money and take some eggs.

[Emily]

That is how you usually buy eggs.

[Amelia]

Yeah. Not in the winter, so they're not available right now.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

But during the summer, you know, once or twice a week. Just eggs.

[Emily]

Yeah. The thing is, these are low supply things. These are sold actually at our co op. So sometimes they're there and sometimes they're not. And we buy them when they are and when they aren't. But we need eggs, then we buy the next best thing.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

You're gonna look for certified humane on your. On your chicken egg carton.

[Amelia]

Pasture raised.

[Emily]

Certified humane. Pasture raised is the combo that's like the best you can do.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

In terms of.

[Amelia]

Or from the lady down the street whose chickens you can see.

[Emily]

Yeah. If you don't have a lady down the street or you don't have a carton with a literal handwritten note on every carton, then just do the best you can. Because if you're gonna eat animal products, there's always gonna be a compromise. But vegan is not available to us. We should do a whole thing on food. I know that we. It's a rough thing to talk about, but especially when we're talking about like.

[Amelia]

Yeah, we should talk about food.

[Emily]

The thing that people cannot stop buying is food.

[Amelia]

Yeah. So we should probably.

[Emily]

So it's about how you make choices about it.

[Amelia]

Yeah, I think so too. I suggested that and you were like, no, it's too complicated.

[Emily]

It's because I. Because I have feelings about it. But yeah, we probably should. Another way to think about buying clothes is making sure you look at the fabric contents.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

I got real tempted to buy a clothes thing and it was all polyester.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And I was like, oh, that's like never going to go away.

[Amelia]

That's literal plastic.

[Emily]

These clothes that are permanent, including when they have torn and gotten stained and are no longer wearable as clothes, they will continue to exist forever. So not so much. So natural fibers, if you can.

[Amelia]

Polyester is a good fabric for you. Secondhand is a great opportunity.

[Emily]

Great opportunity.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And wear the clothes you have. And yeah, natural fibers are almost always more expensive.

[Amelia]

Yeah, they sure are.

[Emily]

Cotton is complicated because of the amount of water. It's a God almighty. Like, it's all complicated. Do the best you can with the resources you have available. And resources include time and energy and attention and money.

[Amelia]

Yeah. But going on a low buy, no buy, whatever you decide to do, the fact that you set conscious limits on what you're going to buy and how you're going to buy it means that you're going to make better choices because you thought about it in advance instead of just being, you know, not everything needs to be spontaneous that you're spending money on. And. And it can make you more confident that you're spending it in ways that you can feel really good about or at least better about because you have to spend money for things. We live in a capitalist economy. That's the way it is.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

You know, if you can create a little micro economy in your community of bartering and like, join the free cycle groove or, you know, look at your local offer up page Craigslist. Great. But you know what? I don't have any energy for that and I do not want to interact with strangers because that costs me way too much energy. So you do the best you can with the resources you have available. But we want to talk about low buy, no buy because it's a thing we're both doing to very different degrees and with very different rules and very different reasons.

[Emily]

Is your rule anything other than no.

[Amelia]

Clothes, I mean, or shoes or bags?

[Emily]

Bags.

[Amelia]

I'm definitely not buying bags. I haven't set any strict rules beyond no clothes. And I honestly don't even know if I'm not buying clothes because of money or because of closet space. Mostly I don't want to be shopping. I don't want to spend time shopping anymore.

[Emily]

Yeah, you don't want to use that much of your time and attention and energy trying to find shit.

[Amelia]

That's what my. That's what my no buy, low buy is about is I want to be a person in the world more than I want to be looking at my phone, trying to replace those gray ankle boots that I used to wear all the time that no longer fit me. Yeah, it Took me the literal whole year.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

To replace my gray ankle boots.

[Emily]

Dude. Of, like, shopping over and over and over again looking for the right thing literally every day. You're committed to those ankle boots?

[Amelia]

Yes. I ended up with two pairs. One I bought new and one I bought secondhand. The secondhand ones are not great, but they're waterproof and casual and fine. The other is from American Duchess, and.

[Emily]

They are beautiful, handmade, glorious.

[Amelia]

Yeah. They're my dress shoes now. They're my only dress shoes besides a pair of loafers. Like, if I have to get dressed up nice, I've got these boots. And if it's in the summer, I've got a pair of loafers that's as dressed up as I'm getting.

[Emily]

Yeah. And you are already doing a whole bunch of, like, ethical consumerism stuff already. That's just how you live your life.

[Amelia]

I mean, I try. Yeah.

[Emily]

Yeah. You're a very by it used kind of person.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And both of us, because we were poor or broke for so much of our lives, have an instinct for waiting until it's on sale.

[Amelia]

Oh, yeah. No. Yeah.

[Emily]

So we already, like, have ways of saving money. We each taught our spouses about shopping by unit price.

[Amelia]

Oh, yeah.

[Emily]

Thanks, mom, for teaching us in the grocery store when we were very young children how to shop by unit price.

[Amelia]

This is one objection I have about Thrive Market. You can't sort by unit price, which I stop at. I. You, like, stop and shop is the local grocery chain on the Cape that I shop at. Mostly they have an app and you can sort by unit price. Awesome. Thrive, you can't do that. And I really annoys me because then I have to do the math.

[Emily]

One of the things that bugged me about Amazon is you could shop by unit price, but the unit was different for many, many items. Some of it's for ounce, some of it's per unit.

[Amelia]

Yeah, yeah. Per one.

[Emily]

So you have to, like, count how many ounces it is and then do math. And, like, that's not what this function is for.

[Amelia]

Yeah. And when they don't make it comparable, then you still have to do the math. And it's like, halfway deceptive because they count on people just not noticing. Yeah, yeah. The. The manipulativeness and the. And the exploitativeness of capitalist apps and stores. I want to get out of it.

[Emily]

And the way prices are changes based on their knowledge of your past shopping history.

[Amelia]

Yeah, it's exploitative.

[Emily]

You may save money at Amazon, but you are donating to them your time, attention, and Data?

[Amelia]

Yeah. Not donating. They're stealing it from you. They're taking it from you.

[Emily]

They're taking it from you in exchange for you paying less actual money.

[Amelia]

Did I tell you about DoorDash yesterday? No. I looked at my credit card statement and I saw that I had a withdrawal from DoorDash which I don't use for $9.99 for DashPass. They've been taking $9.99. And I went to DoorDash and they've been charging me the subscription fee. I guess I haven't noticed it on my. Because it's only $9.99. So I haven't noticed on my credit card bills for months for most of last year.

[Emily]

Oh my God.

[Amelia]

And I checked my email. I had no emails from them saying you have enrolled in this subscription service or we're taking this out of your thing this month. They had not alerted me. They just randomly started charging me for it. So I went online and was like, hey, I mean I canceled it. And then I went online. I was like, I need a refund for these past months. And they were like, no, we can only refund you for this past month. And I was like, no, I don't have any emails from you saying that this began or saying that you are withdrawing any of these. And that is fraud and it's illegal and I need my money back. The money still has not cleared. And when they asked for my feedback on that call, I was like, well, I asked them for a confirmation email. I haven't got that. The money for the refund still hasn't cleared. So, you know, I'll be joining that inevitable class action lawsuit because the law now is that it has to be just as easy to unsubscribe as to subscribe. And I as I didn't even subscribe to it.

[Emily]

Thanks, Biden.

[Amelia]

Yeah, yeah, that was a good piece of legislation that I think we can all agree was makes the world a better place.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Amelia]

Anyway, we don't have to include this in the episode.

[Emily]

I think we should definitely include this in the episode because keeping track of your money is part of like, how do I not get scammed by Internet based companies?

[Amelia]

It's seriously predatory. They just started charging me.

[Emily]

People, people kept asking me about like betterhelp.com because I'm the kind of person people ask about that. So I logged in to like poke around and just like, what is this about?

[Amelia]

They're a data mining scheme.

[Emily]

And they started charging me a quarter at a time. I had never given them Any payment information? Yeah, I had never given them my credit card information. I had never purchased anything from them at all. At all. But because I logged in with my Google account, they had access to my GPAY account and so they were charging my, they only charged me once and again, like, inevitable class action lawsuit. And that like, Better help is bad.

[Amelia]

It's a data mining scam.

[Emily]

I, I sure do hope that anybody who like, has a therapist through them is having a good experience and is receiving help that they deserve.

[Amelia]

And also like Better help is selling your information.

[Emily]

The organization is very bad. And also stealing from you. Yeah, potentially. Like, they stole from me and I had to like, it's like $150 or something.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

So no buy, low buy. Sometimes people are just like taking your money and being like, here, you bought this? No, I didn't know.

[Amelia]

And they will. And they will. The guy was like, oh, no, I can only refund you this past month.

[Emily]

Yeah, you have to fight.

[Amelia]

And then I pointed out that I know that this is against the law. You're committing fraud. I'm not just going to set. You're going to tell me when you.

[Emily]

Said, I know that this is against the law.

[Amelia]

I said, I said, I haven't received this, I haven't received any emails. I have no record of any blah, blah, blah. That means that this is fraud. And the next sentence that came back was, I have refunded your blah, blah, blah. I hope this satisfies your request or something.

[Emily]

There you go.

[Amelia]

Yeah, good boy.

[Emily]

Except that he hasn't yet refunded.

[Amelia]

Except the money hasn't come through and nor do I. I said I'm waiting for a confirmation email. Have I. Have I answered all your questions? I'm just waiting for the confirmation email. I reply, okay, you'll receive that shortly. Okay, how am I going to get it today?

[Emily]

Consumer today.

[Amelia]

Where's my confirmation email? I took, I told him I'm taking screenshots of this because I guess I don't have the confirmation email. These screenshots are the only record I have that you have agreed to give me this refund.

[Emily]

No, you have to stay on the phone until you like. I have done this with Google as.

[Amelia]

I was taking screenshots and I went off the screen to take the screenshot. He left the chat. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Emily]

Oh, so you didn't call, you did a chat? Yeah, chat thing.

[Amelia]

Yeah, I did a. Of course I did a chat thing. I gotta talk on the phone.

[Emily]

Did you say, I'm gonna stay here until.

[Amelia]

Yes, I Said, I would like you. I said, please wait, I am taking screenshots. And he's like, I understand. And then while I was gone, he did the automated message of I haven't heard from you for a while and then was gone. Because it took me two minutes to take screenshots, which, by the way, I waited more than five minutes for replies from him. And then more than 10 seconds go by and he's like, oh, I haven't heard from you, so I'm gonna hang up.

[Emily]

Yeah, yeah.

[Amelia]

Oh, garden. Anyway, not to participate. I don't want to participate in the online economy because of all of that.

[Emily]

Even though it is extra costly to us in terms of energy and all kinds of stuff to go out into the actual physical world. These online companies, man, it is hard to think of one.

[Amelia]

I'm afraid I'm gonna have to keep shopping at Target because I need light bulbs sometimes.

[Emily]

Yeah, sometimes you just need a damn light bulb. Yeah. And you live in a place where they don't do same day delivery, which I find that very sad for you.

[Amelia]

I live 20 minutes at least from anywhere.

[Emily]

Yeah. That's not even rural.

[Amelia]

I know. But there is a lady who has eggs and horses down the street from me. So it's a little bit rural.

[Emily]

It's a little bit rural. Whereas we live in the kind of place that has a cooperative with eggs that leave a little note.

[Amelia]

If I drive 40 minutes, I can get to a place that's a cooperative where the egg. Where the chickens leave you a note.

[Emily]

40 minutes each way is a lot.

[Amelia]

40 minutes each way is a lot. But that's what it takes for me to go to a place that has like locally grown vegetables and eggs and stuff.

[Emily]

Yeah. One of the reasons we decided not to leave our town is because this branch of the co op opened in our. Like, we waited for years for this place to open and they finally did. And when it did, it was so great. We're like, let's just find another house in the same town and stay here because how much better is it going to get than this?

[Amelia]

Not much better.

[Emily]

Not much better.

[Amelia]

You have a pretty good.

[Emily]

If only. If only we had a beach, which is the thing you have access to.

[Amelia]

That's the thing. I have. I have countertops and the beach.

[Emily]

Yes. You have so much counter space and five minutes from the beach.

[Amelia]

I don't know if any of this was helpful.

[Emily]

So many reasons. So many reasons not to participate in the economy. So many reasons to think about why and how you are making choices about what you purchase like what you do with your money. Another way to think about it isn't like, if you make an hourly rate, like, how many hours of work does this represent?

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

I find that one. That one when I was broke was very helpful for stopping me from buying fast food and takeout.

[Amelia]

Right.

[Emily]

Because if it's like, okay, it's cheap, but it's still three hours of my day.

[Amelia]

Yeah.

[Emily]

That's paying for this. Oh, Shelly is coming to say hello.

[Amelia]

Oh, what a good kid. I hope this was helpful.

[Emily]

Don't use doordash or betterhelp or do. It's up to. It's completely like we're not. That's what you have to do.

[Amelia]

Are the boss of you resources you have available.

[Emily]

You are the boss of your home. You get to choose. We're just talking about our experience in this one.

[Amelia]

Yeah. And it definitely affects your wellness. So 100%. I hope it was helpful. And we'll see you next week.

[Emily]

Well, you'll hear us next week.

[Amelia]

And the cat was not meowing while you said that.

[Emily]

Not while I said that.

[Amelia]

I've had a food processor that I really like for several years now and I've never made butter. It never even occurred to me to make butter.

[Emily]

Oh, yeah, make butter.