The Bubble of Love and Connection

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Feminist Survival Project – "The Bubble of Love and Connection"

Hosts: Emily Nagoski & Amelia Nagoski
Episode Date: October 9, 2025
Episode Theme:
A heartfelt exploration of the "bubble of love and connection" concept from their book Burnout. The hosts use their own relationship and pop culture (notably Disney’s Frozen) to tackle the anxiety feminists (and everyone) may feel about building authentic connections, especially in the context of traumatic upbringings or a culture that devalues vulnerability.

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Main Theme

This episode responds to one of the most frequent and pressing questions from readers:
“What if I don’t have a bubble of love and connection?”
Emily and Amelia (with guest contributions and musical moments) share personal stories and research, demystifying what it means to find, create, or nurture real connection—especially for those who feel they lack it.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Addressing the Central Question: "What if I don't have a bubble?"

• Many assume the Nagoskis, as twins, always shared an automatic "bubble."
• In reality, their upbringing was marked by mental illness, addiction, and emotional walls, leaving them estranged into adulthood.
  • Quote [01:32]:

    “People assume that because we're twins, we've also had some special bond, an automatic bubble... By the time we were young adults, we barely spoke to each other.” —Emily

• Their first answer (“just get better people”) was dismissed as simplistic and not true to their lived experience.
• Genuine connection is learned and practiced, often awkwardly and incrementally.

2. Breakthroughs Through Science and Practice

• The journey began by reading the research that “connection is the cure”—and then, hesitantly, putting it into practice.
• Metaphor: The Wall & The Ice Cube
  • Connection felt like melting a 20x20x20 foot block of ice; slow, daunting, but not impossible.
  • Quote [04:43]:

    “The science... just would not say anything other than love, connection, people, vulnerability, authenticity. God damn it.” —Amelia

• Progress required courage: pushing through awkwardness, breaking family rules of emotional silence, and being the first to reach out.

3. "Do You Want to Build a Snowman?" — The Frozen Analogy

• Anna as the archetype of persistent, vulnerable connection-seeking.
• Elsa as the archetype for emotional isolation due to trauma/family norms.
  • Quote [08:40]:

    “Do you want to connect with me? The courage to be that vulnerable, to ask... Anna is a God. She’s a hero.” —Emily

• Both sisters saw themselves as Elsa—afraid, walled off; it was the research that kept urging them to “be Anna,” to keep knocking.

4. Emotionally Dismissing vs. Emotion Coaching Families

• Referencing John Gottman, they clarify that many grow up, as they did, in families (and an “uber culture”) that values suppression over authentic feeling.
• This widespread emotional dismissal—even in adulthood—compounds shame and impedes authentic connection.
  • Quote [13:40]:

    “We live in a large scale uber culture that values self control and autonomy and politeness and obedience over honesty and vulnerability.” —Emily

5. Neurodivergence and Personal Growth

• Both discuss undiagnosed autism and alexithymia (difficulty recognizing one’s own emotions) as additional hurdles.
• Progress wasn’t linear: “If you dump a whole lot of baking soda into vinegar, you get an explosion… we titrated our connection” [23:24].
• Skill-building came from relationships beyond their family, then gradually brought back “home.”

6. Building, Not Finding, the Bubble

• The bubble can be constructed—slowly and with setbacks—by being brave, persistent, and discerning about who grows alongside you.
• “Just find better people” is easier said than done, and sometimes not possible; growth may come from healing existing relationships, or finding/creating new ones.
  • Quote [41:28]:

    "To answer the question, 'What if I don't have a bubble of love?'—the answer is you make it." —Amelia

7. Safety and Boundaries in Connection

• Not all environments or relationships are safe for vulnerability; know the difference between “scary” and “unsafe.”
• Boundaries are critical, especially for those who need to guard against energy vampires and toxic dynamics.
  • Quote [39:17]:

    “Let me just put up a distinction here... boundaries really matter. Being able to protect those boundaries really matters.” —Amelia

8. Effects of Connection (and the Pain of Its Absence)

• Breaking down walls and shedding shells is painful, often feeling worse before it feels better.
• Moments of “breadcrumbs of feel good” indicate progress and future potential for authentic connection.
  • Quote [31:53]:

    “Melting the ice cube does not feel good. It doesn't feel good. Ripping your shell off feels bad. Mostly there's... tiny breadcrumbs of feel good on the way.” —Emily

9. Non-Romantic Love and The Value of Chosen Family

• Connection isn’t just about partners, but friends, siblings, and a wide spectrum of loving relationships.
  • Quote [43:54]:

    “Turns out [Frozen]’s not about romantic relationships. Turns out... there’s a lot of kinds of love.” —Emily

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [06:43] The Fear of "Growing Mighty":

  “When you grow mighty, it’s so scary... because you have no idea what it will look like when you’re on the other side.” —Emily

• [14:21] On Avoiding the Elephant in the Room:

  “If you're not talking about that... it leaves you nothing to talk about.” —Amelia

• [16:38] Mr. Rogers as Shadow:

  “He was like, you should feel your feelings... and you're special just the way you are. Yeah. How dare he.” —Emily

• [32:13] Literal Practice:

  “Sitting at opposite ends of an eight foot sofa. Each of us staring at the wall in front of us... talking about stories from our childhood, stories we've never spoken about because it's against the rules to talk about feelings.” —Amelia

• [35:54] On the Pain of Progress:

  “This one doesn’t feel nice. I mean, maybe it feels nice to some people, but... the ones who… need this the most are not enjoying this.” —Amelia

• [44:06] Cultural Misinterpretation of Sisterhood:

  “Gross. Can you not like, create space for a story about sisters? …It’s how people show their asses…” —Amelia

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment / Topic | |--------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:11–01:16 | Why “What if I don’t have a bubble?” is the most common question | | 01:32–02:49 | Emily reads from the Burnout workbook about their real-life family estrangement | | 04:19–06:10 | The science kept insisting on connection; Care Bear & ice cube metaphors for emotional barriers | | 07:00–08:50 | The transformation of “growing mighty”; you change on the way to connection | | 07:56–10:25 | Frozen’s “Do You Want to Build a Snowman?”—using pop culture as a metaphor for vulnerability | | 12:50–14:31 | Distinguishing between emotion-dismissing and emotion-coaching families; cultural context | | 15:27–16:44 | How their upbringing led them to reject openness (e.g., contempt for Mr. Rogers) | | 20:26–21:36 | Realization: “A whole life’s worth of feelings in my body still unacknowledged” | | 23:10–24:34 | Importance of titrating connection; not all at once | | 26:04–31:09 | Building relationship skills outside the family; dating and boundaries | | 32:13–33:46 | The literal, awkward practice of connection-building; sharing unlived, untold stories | | 35:16–35:54 | Progress doesn’t feel good; “This episode doesn’t feel nice” | | 39:17–41:28 | Emphasis on healthy boundaries and safety in building connection | | 41:28–43:34 | Building your own bubble; evaluation of relationships, letting go when necessary | | 44:06–44:32 | Pushback against misinterpretations (e.g., reading sisterhood as queer propaganda) | | 44:51–46:59 | The "Bubble of Love" song—musical interlude summarizing key themes |

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Tone and Takeaways

The conversation is warm, self-deprecating, and candid—with laughter, music, and vulnerability. The sisters acknowledge the real pain and messiness of healing and connection, never minimizing how hard it is to repair or build a "bubble of love" from scratch. But they provide hope:

• If connection is possible for them, it’s possible for anybody.
• Building the bubble is slow, awkward, and may hurt—but you grow into a new self through that journey.
• Not everyone is able or willing to meet you—discernment and boundaries are essential.
• Healthy connection is learned and practiced, through titration, persistence, and support.

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Conclusion

"If we can do it, literally anyone can." —Emily ([23:08])

This episode does not sugarcoat the cost of connection, nor does it promise comfort, but it encourages listeners that authentic “bubble of love” relationships are possible—with courage, patience, boundaries, and maybe a little science (and a few Disney metaphors).

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Relevant Segment:
[44:51]–[46:59]: “‘Bubble of Love’ song” — musical summary of the emotional journey.

Transcript

[Brené Brown]

Today we're answering our question that we got very early on, right after Burnout was published, which is about Chapter 6, the bubble of love Connection, which is, you know, one of the cures for human giver syndrome. And the person asked us, what if I don't have a bubble? And this is a question we get a lot still.

[Tara Brach]

And it's. It's not even that. Like, this person asked us a question really early on when the book first came out. It was one of the questions we were asked most often, including by journalists.

[Brené Brown]

Journalists. Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

Yeah.

[Brené Brown]

We're like, what if you don't have.

[Tara Brach]

People in your life who will support you like that? Who will, as we described in the. In the fall ventral episode, like, stand and you hold each other up when you are attacked by the riptide of what, other people's opinions about how you should be living your life. Yeah. And our first answer, honestly, was pretty.

[Brené Brown]

Pretty junky.

[Tara Brach]

Yeah. We said, you get better people.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's not. That was wrong.

[Tara Brach]

That was wrong, and we were wrong. The thing is, it didn't even reflect our own actual lived experience. As we were writing the book, we were like, we have to do these things. We have to follow our own advice.

[Brené Brown]

Actually, Emily, have you read the Burnout workbook? No, I'm just going to read a page from the Burnout workbook. Okay. Because it's my workbook. This is from an early draft, so I'm not sure it's 100% the. But there's a page, and the title of the page is, what if I Don't have a Bubble? And here's what I wrote. We get this question a lot, and we asked it, too. People assume that because we're twins, we've also had some special bond, an automatic bubble. But we grew up in a household with mental illness and addiction, where feelings were silenced and compassion was weakness. By the time we were young adults, we barely spoke to each other. In our late 30s, we started writing Burnout together and read all the science that said connection was the cure. Only then did we recognize how drastically our upbringing had misled us about connection. So we started practicing what the research said to do. Imagine the two of us sitting on opposite sides of a wall, wishing the wall wasn't there, wishing the other person wished the wall wasn't there. Ashamed of wishing. Then one day we're reading connection research, and one of us says, hey, are you over there?

[Tara Brach]

What?

[Brené Brown]

To, you know, smash this damn wall or something? And the other replies, yo, that sounds super awkward.

[Guest Singer]

And hard.

[Brené Brown]

But yeah, let's try it. And it was super awkward and hard. We finally talked about the stories we'd never talked about, talked about our feelings, which was extremely awkward to do when we had been taught it was forbidden, weak and dead dangerous. And we dismantled the wall. It was slow and uncomfortable at first, but the more we did it, the easier it got. The point of this story is to illustrate that you can find connection because everyone needs connection, including the people around you. They're all longing to connect, but so many of us feel like we have a barrier preventing it. It takes one brave person, empowered by the evidence to push through the awkward barrier, be the vulnerable one and connect. You may be surrounded by people who are longing for it, just like you are. Just like we were never knowing that they are also surrounded by others who are longing for the same thing. If only one of them knew how simple it was to overcome. We did it stilted and fearful as we were taught to be about sharing emotions and being vulnerable. If we can do it, literally anyone can. So who might be in your bubble? What can you do to invite them to start connecting more if they feel walled up behind societal expectations, to be completely autonomous and independent?

[Tara Brach]

Yeah, we did it. Because the science kept on saying yeah. Like it. The science just would. Like, we were writing a self help book.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

And we wanted it to be evidence based. And the science, we could not get the science to say anything other than love, connection, people, vulnerability, authenticity. God damn it.

[Brené Brown]

God damn it.

[Tara Brach]

In every, every domain of science that we read, we just kept saying it and eventually we. I remember being in therapy. This is before the pandemic. So my therapy was in person and I was like, science, keep saying this. And we're writing this book together that's about this. And the analogy that came to mind when I was in therapy, I remember it really vividly. There is a 20 foot long, 20 foot high, 20 foot thick block of ice between us. Yeah. The sheer thermal mass of it means that both of us, like shining our Care Bear hearts as hot as we can at was still just gonna take so much.

[Brené Brown]

I forgot about Care Bears. Just forgot about Care Bears care altogether.

[Tara Brach]

Yeah. Yeah. It would take so much that I didn't know if each of us individually and certainly us as a partnership have the capacity to do it. Yeah.

[Brené Brown]

No.

[Tara Brach]

And I was like, like, I don't, I don't. I don't know. Not only do I not know if we can. I don't know if I want to.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

Because I don't. I don't have any reference for what it's like to have the 20 foot cube of ice gone.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

Have any idea. And things are. Things are fine right now.

[Brené Brown]

Everything is fine.

[Tara Brach]

It's fine.

[Brené Brown]

Do we really have to do all that work?

[Tara Brach]

So much work. And we don't know. Even though the science just over and over is like, it'll be better if you do this.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah. There's also a phenomenon that we talk about in the book about how when you grow mighty, it's so scary to do because you have no idea what it will look like when you're on the other side, when you are mighty. It's so frightening to think what it would be like when you have that power and that strength.

[Tara Brach]

Yeah.

[Brené Brown]

Because you can't imagine yourself there because.

[Tara Brach]

You aren't there now.

[Brené Brown]

But the thing is that by the time you. You imagine yourself like in the place of success or power or like whatever you've achieved in your. In your growing mighty, and you imagine yourself there as you are now. But the thing is that the journey of growing makes you capable of being in that new space. So, like, probably where we were at in 2016.

[Tara Brach]

We could not be the.

[Brené Brown]

Selves we were then in the relationship we have now. But because we did all that work.

[Tara Brach]

Right. We changed.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah, exactly. To make ourselves comfortable. Being care bear hearts got hotter. Our care bear hearts. Right.

[Tara Brach]

I guess. It's their tummies. It's their tummies. Our care bear tummies.

[Brené Brown]

Another story that tells this same story is, do you want to build a snowman? Because that's what Anna's doing. She's so brave. Anna is the hero of Frozen. She is the one who knocks on the door over and over, day after day, year after year. Do you want to build a snowman? She grows and she changes. Doesn't have to be a snowman. Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

And she.

[Brené Brown]

It doesn't. It doesn't have to be a snowman.

[Tara Brach]

Or ride our bikes around the hall. Like, let.

[Brené Brown]

Do you want to connect with me? Hey. Do you want to connect with me? Hey. Do you want to connect with me? Hey. Should we open this door? Do you want to connect with me? Do you want to connect with me? The courage to be that vulnerable, to ask, to ask for connection, for love. Anna is a God. She's a hero. She's one of the boldest, bravest Disney princess heroes that there ever was.

[Tara Brach]

Yeah. She throws her arm around her sister and sacrifices herself.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah. She's a huge, huge hero.

[Tara Brach]

Like, people make a big deal out of some people. Are worth melting for. But what Anna does is some people are worth freezing for.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

And she. She.

[Brené Brown]

She's the one who asks so that by the time, you know, their parents die and it's just the them and she doesn't have anybody anymore. And it's still, please, I know you're in there. People are asking where you've been. They say, have courage. And I'm trying to. I'm right out here for you. I'm right out here for you. Just let me in.

[Guest Singer]

We only have each other.

[Brené Brown]

We're probably gonna get sued if we release this version of me singing this song.

[Tara Brach]

This is totally fair use. This is our critique, grounded in the science.

[Brené Brown]

This is a fully fair use. And nobody's going to confuse me with Kristen Bell.

[Tara Brach]

But like, there is an image. There is a shot. They decide they have a computer animated. Somebody drew this image of. From the ceiling. You see Anna on one side of the closed door, sitting out in the hallway.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

And Elsa on the other side of the door. It's fucking snowing in there. Because her feelings. The snow power is a metaphor for big emotion. Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. Which we learn in, like the song where her parents teach her what to do.

[Brené Brown]

Seal. Don't feel.

[Tara Brach]

Yeah. Don't let it show. Yeah. Conceal it. Don't feel it. Put fucking gloves on to cover the source of your power. Anyway, she's in there and it's snowing on her. And Anna's on the other side of the door. And I think when each of us saw it, we each thought we were Elsa.

[Brené Brown]

We were both Elsa.

[Tara Brach]

We were both Elsa.

[Brené Brown]

And the research said Bianna. Bianna. That's how you saw it.

[Tara Brach]

Keep knocking on the door. Keep knocking on the door.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah. And then when the person on the other side of the door. When Elsa runs away to an ice castle. Follow her to the ice castle.

[Tara Brach]

Yeah.

[Brené Brown]

And when she kicks you out of the ice castle and sends a snow monster to literally physically drop you out the window of the ice castle, let's be clear.

[Tara Brach]

Very gently. Plonk you outside. Yeah.

[Brené Brown]

You go back again.

[Tara Brach]

Yep.

[Brené Brown]

You maybe go ask for help. But in the end, you just go back again and again. And then that person still hasn't let you in, but they get attacked. And you stand between that person and the attack.

[Tara Brach]

Yeah. And the last lyric in the song, we only have each other. It's just you and me. What are we gonna do? That's the end.

[Brené Brown]

That's the end.

[Tara Brach]

The rest of the movie is the answer to the question.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

You're gonna keep showing up.

[Brené Brown]

You're gonna keep showing up. You're gonna go to the ice castle. No matter. Kicked out of the ice castle.

[Tara Brach]

How many barriers the other person throws up because they have been taught in a way that you were not. Maybe if you're Ana, that connection is dangerous because your feelings are our weapons is what Anna was taught. I did a whole hour long talk that I mentioned in burnout called Frozen and the Science of the Feels.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah. Love is an open door.

[Tara Brach]

Love is an open door. Frozen and the Science of the feels. Because that whole movie is an 100% evidence based metaphor for what John Gottman calls emotion. Dismissing families where you're taught that your feelings do not belong an emotion. Dismissing as opposed to emotion. Coaching families where you're taught names for the emotions you're experiencing. You're taught the meanings of the emotions you're experiencing. You're given emotional support for the emotions you're experiencing. You're not left alone in pain.

[Brené Brown]

And to be clear, it's not just your family of origin. It's not just your family of origin.

[Tara Brach]

Not just your family of origin.

[Brené Brown]

We live in a large scale uber culture that values self control and autonomy and politeness and obedience over honesty and vulnerability.

[Tara Brach]

Especially from people who get raised as girls.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

So like the. I mean, we grew up in a dysfunctional family of origin. It's really common in families where there's addiction that the narrative in the home is you don't talk about it. It's a secret.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

It's not just a secret from people outside the home, It's a secret from each other. You don't talk about it with each other.

[Brené Brown]

You don't talk about it. And if you're not talking about that and it's like, literally there's an elephant in the room and you're not talking about it. Like, don't talk about that elephant that's in the room. It leaves you nothing to talk about.

[Tara Brach]

Yeah. Like you can't, you certainly can't talk about anything difficult because every conversation, the.

[Brené Brown]

Subtext is we're not talking about the elephant.

[Tara Brach]

It means you can't talk about all the shit that an elephant in your room is leaving that you're neglecting.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah. And every conversation is avoiding talking about the elephant.

[Tara Brach]

Yeah. So that, so we lived in that home. But because the uber culture agreed, fully.

[Brené Brown]

Supported that kind of relationship to our.

[Tara Brach]

Feelings, fully reinforced the idea that like, you don't, you are not vulnerable. You don't talk about your feelings. It is, I remember Being a very young child. Oh, God, am I gonna say this.

[Brené Brown]

About myself in public.

[Tara Brach]

Yeah. I was a very young child. And I felt contempt for Mr. Rogers. Me too.

[Brené Brown]

How I hated Mr. Rogers. And of course we did. Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

I idolized Mr. Rogers now. Yeah. He was such a good person who fought so hard for really vulnerable people.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah. Nobody's perfect. But.

[Tara Brach]

Like, the core of who he was as a human being.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

Was a so much of a contradiction of what I, by the time I was six, thought a person was supposed to be. Yeah. That I hated him because. Insert the shadow episode here.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah. Exactly.

[Tara Brach]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Brené Brown]

How dare he?

[Tara Brach]

Mr. Was my shadow.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah. 100%. No. I felt the same way. He was like, you should feel your feelings and use your imagination. And you're special just the way you are. Yeah. How dare he. Tell me.

[Tara Brach]

I'm glad to see you.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah. Fuck you, Mr. Rogers.

[Tara Brach]

Yeah.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tara Brach]

Yeah. So if we can do it.

[Brené Brown]

I mean, Elsa did it because she had Anna and we sort of had to cooperate because it's just not. And we needed evidence based research to convince us that it was worth doing.

[Tara Brach]

Yeah. It took six months of reading the research to pick the knot apart enough for us to be like, oh, shit.

[Brené Brown]

We have to do this.

[Tara Brach]

And we can. We. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So if you have a sibling and you grew up in a family where. And it might not work the first time. Went to grad school. My master's degree is in counseling psychology.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

And over the course of that, I sort of like, did some sibling reach out to be like, do you have any interest in family? And the answer I got was like, no. No, thank you.

[Guest Singer]

Please.

[Tara Brach]

Yeah, you're breaking the rules. And I was like, okay. So the things I am learning about in my master's degree in counseling, about family relationships, I can apply that to all these relationships I have outside.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

Of my family of origin. And I like. I did. And it worked. And one of the reasons why I was able to do it within family of origin is because I, like, strengthened those skills by using them elsewhere. You also do not behave in your marriage the way you were taught to do in our family. No.

[Brené Brown]

That's one of the reasons I married him.

[Tara Brach]

Because Malin is so wonderful.

[Brené Brown]

He taught me that feelings are real again. Alexithymia, autism. When I was 19, 20, I kind of didn't believe that feelings were.

[Tara Brach]

Yeah.

[Brené Brown]

Real. I thought they were imaginary. I thought they were ideas, not internal experiences. Because I was so out of touch with my own internal experience. And he was the first person who Was ever like, no, feelings are real. Instincts are things that everyone has. That's. And I was like, no. He was like, yes, yes. So, yeah, reader, I married him.

[Tara Brach]

Yeah. Add on the layer that, like, we grew up in this dysfunctional family in this profoundly dysfunctional culture and were autistic the whole time.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah, yeah. And undiagnosed, untreated. There was no. There was no level 1 ASD support needs. Teach kids how to, you know, connect with their internal experience and like. So with, like, the whole mental illness, we don't talk about the elephant thing. The extra layer of that for me was alexithymia. And I genuinely had a kind of blindness to the elephant, or at least my experience of ignoring the elephant.

[Tara Brach]

So your experiences that were the, like, origin story of burnout, of getting really sick in grad school and me sending you research that it wasn't just Malin being like, no, your feelings are valid and instincts are real. I was like, I mean, that's how it started.

[Brené Brown]

That's a hundred percent how it started.

[Tara Brach]

Yeah, that's how it started. And then I come in and like. But it wasn't enough to, like, get.

[Brené Brown]

You to, like, not even close.

[Tara Brach]

Work yourself into a literal hospital.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

I come along with a science and you're like, oh, it's not just opinion.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

It's not just in this relationship. It is the foundational fact of human biology.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was so scary because if.

[Guest Singer]

Feelings are in your body for your whole life, that means I've got a.

[Brené Brown]

Whole life's worth of feelings in my body still unacknowledged is going to be hard.

[Guest Singer]

Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

And there's a lot of people who be like, nope, nope, not going to do that because this is going to be hard. It would be too hard to do things differently now from how I have been doing it for these 30 plus years.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah. And oh my God, if I have to face 30 plus years of unacknowledged emotions.

[Tara Brach]

Ah, can I. Have I told you about my favorite review of Come as yous Are?

[Brené Brown]

I don't remember.

[Tara Brach]

It was written by somebody who hadn't read it and it was. I haven't read it because I've read reviews of it and people have told me about their experience of it and I am afraid of what will happen to me if I find out all the ways I've been lied to my whole life about who I am as a sexual person and I don't know who I'll be on the other side of that.

[Brené Brown]

That's the growing mighty problem.

[Tara Brach]

That is the growing mighty problem.

[Brené Brown]

That's the thing, is you're a lobster. I love this, and I know you hate it, but, like, lobsters shed their shell, and they are these, like, completely vulnerable squidgy invertebrates.

[Tara Brach]

Squidgy blobs on the bottom of the.

[Brené Brown]

Ocean while the new shell grows back. Yeah, squidgy blobs. And, like, being a squidgy blob while you grow into your new shell sucks.

[Tara Brach]

Yeah. You have to be in a place.

[Brené Brown]

Where it's safe to be a squishy blob.

[Tara Brach]

It's safe to be a squishy blob. And if your existing relationships don't support that, like, you're just gonna get squishy blobbed into oblivion.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah. So the question is, do your existing relationships or any relationships you might potentially value or value more, are they unsafe because they're unsafe, or is it just scary because nobody's ever opened the door before?

[Tara Brach]

Yeah.

[Brené Brown]

And I think people know the difference. I think people know the difference.

[Tara Brach]

I don't know if I would have known the difference in my early 20s.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah. Maybe not.

[Tara Brach]

But by the time we got to our mid-30s, I. For sure. Even by my late 20s, I could feel the difference.

[Brené Brown]

And I think we were stunted in that growth.

[Tara Brach]

Oh, yeah.

[Brené Brown]

So probably most people know earlier than that, right?

[Guest Singer]

Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

Yeah. Again, like, if we can do it.

[Brené Brown]

We'Re so bad at it.

[Tara Brach]

Literally anyone can do it.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah, Literally anyone. However, we did read a lot of research about the hows, about the whys. So, like, we, you know, we did it very purposefully and intentionally.

[Tara Brach]

And partly because of what the research said, and also partly because of our existing skill set, we naturally titrated. Yes. Our connection. So, like, tiny. So titration. I'm sure we've used it, but just the standard metaphor for titration is if you dump a whole lot of baking soda into vinegar, you get an explosion.

[Brené Brown]

You get a mess.

[Tara Brach]

If you drop a tiny little sprinkle of baking soda into vinegar, you get a. And it's okay. And then you sprinkle in a tiny little bit more. That's titration. Little by little, and you don't get an uncontained blast that will destroy things and leave a terrible mess. We titrated our connection. And also, like, there were times when, like, I was capable of or interested in going further than you were and vice versa, and we, like, had to, like, hear each other be like, nope, not that. Not now.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

So, like, it's, in a way, just find better people Is like an easier answer and one that people are more interested in hearing.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah. Just find better people is what I did when I found my husband. I found somebody who was already there, who already knew who could already do it. He had the skill and he taught me.

[Tara Brach]

Yeah.

[Brené Brown]

I did not transfer that skill to any other relationships. Right.

[Tara Brach]

And if you have. If I mean, so in Magnificent Sex by Peggy Klein Plotz and Dana Maynard, it's. It's interviews with dozens of people who self identify as having extraordinary sex lives. And one of the questions is, well.

[Brené Brown]

How do you get to be a.

[Tara Brach]

Person who has extraordina extraordinary sex? Sometimes a person spontaneously decides that they want to create that, and so they bring the concept to it to their partners. And some people meet a partner who has that and they're like, oh, oh, it can be so much more. And you met Malin and were like, oh, oh.

[Brené Brown]

But not sex, just like being a person.

[Tara Brach]

No, just the human feelings part of, like, being a person can be so much more than I thought being a person can be.

[Brené Brown]

Being a person can be so much more than I thought it could be.

[Tara Brach]

And I got a master's degree in how to have relationships.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

And got better at it. So that, I mean, I. When I finished school, I stayed single for years.

[Brené Brown]

That was a very long pause.

[Tara Brach]

Five years I was single.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

Single. Because by the time I got to full adulthood and had all of my degrees and my job and everything, I was like, I am never going to teach someone the basics of being a person again. Yeah. I'm going to wait to get into, like, a serious relationship until I meet somebody. I don't need to teach the basics of being a person. Yeah. And it took five years. Yeah. I went on dates. Yeah. Five years.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

To find someone who I didn't feel like, well, if I just train them up real good.

[Brené Brown]

Right.

[Tara Brach]

I was willing to teach people in my 20s. By the time I got to my 30s, nope, I'm not going to do that anymore. And one of the problems with dating later in life is you've learned a whole bunch of stuff and maybe you're not interested in having to teach all of that stuff to someone else. So. Yeah.

[Brené Brown]

So for anybody who doesn't know, my husband is 19 years older than I am. We met when I was 21 and he was 40. We were like, together together, like two years later and I was still learning this stuff. And then I went to get my master's degree at one of those conservatories where they, you know, break you down to Build you up and all of that. Like, emotional. I mean, growth. What they do in the conservatory is they rip your shell off and they leave you a squidgy emotional blob. And I did that while living three states away from Malin. So after he had been teaching me.

[Tara Brach]

Which at that point is the only, like, real relationship you have in your life.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah. Only really real relationship. Yes, absolutely. And so, like, up to that point, he'd been, like, asking me to marry him. Like, all, like. Like, gazing at me across the.

[Guest Singer]

Oh, will you marry me?

[Brené Brown]

And let's get married. And me, like, no, there's no reason to change how things are. But, like, it's already fine. Marriage is a piece of paper. Like, you don't need to. No, I came back from Westminster never wanting to be apart from him ever again.

[Tara Brach]

Yeah. Lock it down.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah, Yeah. I need to. I can't do that again. I can't be without him. I see now. I get it now. So, like, it was a combination of him just being like, look, this is a real thing. And then going to a school where I learned to listen and feel feelings in an academic setting and maybe go, oh, learning it from a relationship. And then also from, you know, the. I say all the time, I learned how to be a person on the podium. Right. And that is. That is. That story is one of these pieces of evidence I have for that. So it wasn't just him being. It is a nature, like, part of him being older than me, you know?

[Tara Brach]

Yeah.

[Brené Brown]

And it was a little bit to do with the fact that he was, you know, almost twice my age when we met. But never, never once in our relationship has the age difference mattered. Never once in all the arguments we've had has it ever mattered that he's older than me. Never once, ever. When you're inside a relationship with an age difference, it does not matter. I think it's like. I think it's like any other difference. Like, it's just a difference and it's not. Anyway, I'm talking about the age difference thing because there's, like, cultural commentary on age difference relationships. And I'm like, it's so much bullshit. And you were just saying about how, like, you know, when you're older and you don't want to teach people a new thing, and, like, I don't know how Malin put up with me for in the very beginning, because I was.

[Tara Brach]

Like, you know, I. I have an.

[Brené Brown]

Attachment style that's not conducive to closeness in general. I have an avoidant attachment style. I'll admit that. But like, you know, family of origin and, you know, neurodivergence collude to make me not the touchiest, feeliest, sweet and coziest. So it wasn't just that Malin was like, I'm going to patiently teach this young person that's not how that went. That's not how that went.

[Tara Brach]

Yeah. So there were a lot of things that contributed to our ability to create the kind of connection, the bubble of.

[Brené Brown]

Love, including our academic training for both of us.

[Tara Brach]

Both of us.

[Brené Brown]

And including the relationships that we had with other people, our chosen family. Practice. Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

Yeah. So it doesn't, it doesn't just happen. It's not fast. It is scary. It is pretty poor proposition. Like, it's a hard sell, I think, because like, yeah, again, I was like, a 20 foot ice cube will be so hard to melt, be so difficult and take so long. And I don't know what it, like, I can't say anything about what's going to be better on the other side.

[Brené Brown]

And melting the ice cube does not feel good. It doesn't feel good.

[Tara Brach]

Nope.

[Brené Brown]

Feels bad.

[Tara Brach]

Feels bad.

[Brené Brown]

Ripping your shell off feels bad.

[Tara Brach]

Mostly there's, mostly there's like tiny breadcrumbs of feel good on the way.

[Brené Brown]

Little breadcrumbs of feel good that indicate.

[Tara Brach]

That like, oh, here's what it might feel like if, if we're willing to keep doing this.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

And by keep doing this just to like paint, I mean we've used these like metaphors of the wall and the ice cube. But like what it literally is, is us sitting at opposite ends of an eight foot sofa. Each of us staring at the wall in front of us, not at each other.

[Brené Brown]

Forward, not at each other. Yeah, that would be, that would be two feelings.

[Tara Brach]

Talking about like stories from our childhood, stories we've never spoken about because it's against the rules to talk about feelings.

[Brené Brown]

Right. But we both remember really distinctly a lot of the same, A lot of.

[Tara Brach]

The same specific events. Events that again, we're like 35 almost. No, we turned 40 while we were writing Burnout.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

We're that many years old when we're talking about stuff that happened when we were five.

[Brené Brown]

Preschoolers. Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

That'S how broken shit was. And we still. It's not that we fixed that, it's that we built a new thing. Yeah. So that when people ask the question, you missed it. You said, we built a new thing.

[Brené Brown]

And I said, a snowman.

[Tara Brach]

We built a snowman.

[Brené Brown]

We built a snowman.

[Tara Brach]

It doesn't have to be a snowman.

[Brené Brown]

But if you want to use a metaphor.

[Tara Brach]

But what's the very first thing Elsa creates when she's letting it go with her very first gesture? The very first thing she makes is Olaf.

[Brené Brown]

She builds a snowman.

[Tara Brach]

First thing.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

Yes. She wants to build a fucking snowman. And then she builds a snow monster. Whose name is Marshmallow, by the way. And if you have watched the after credits scene, Marshmallow wanders in looking so sad, and he picks up Elsa's tiara and he just puts on Elsa's little crown and he just is so happy. I have that as a pin. Marshmallow snow monster wearing the crown.

[Brené Brown]

And all the spiky things retract. Back.

[Tara Brach]

And all the spiky things retract. He got his crown. Yeah. And he could relax and soften and just be the marshmallow that he really was all along that movie. Disney knows what they're doing. Yes, they do. There's a reason why that is the single most profitable franchise for them. That's why they have the Disney Princesses line and then they have the Frozen line.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

Because it's too valuable. Products as a commodity. It's too valuable as a brand to fold into generic. Disney Princess.

[Brené Brown]

It's worth as much as a bunch of other princesses combined with. And it's.

[Tara Brach]

And it's. And it's not because of the snow or the magic.

[Brené Brown]

It's.

[Tara Brach]

It's because it's the door.

[Brené Brown]

It's because of. Because of the door.

[Tara Brach]

It's because they open the door.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah. So I'm okay with this being a much shorter episode. The last one was like very long and cozy and feels nice. And this one's doesn't feel nice. This one doesn't feel nice. I mean, maybe it feels nice to some people, but like, I think there's people who are gonna be like, this doesn't feel good. Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

I think the people for whom the thing we're saying is the most relevant are the ones who are gonna be like.

[Brené Brown]

Are not enjoying this.

[Tara Brach]

Yeah. I don't. That's. And other people are gonna be like, yes. Connection.

[Brené Brown]

Love is open to door. It is an open door. Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

And the problem is the song Love is an Open Door is with spoilers for Frozen. The guy who turns out to be the big bad.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

Like, they, like, he. He goes along with her, like falling in love instantly because that's. Love is an open door. But then there's the, like, you gotta like cross the threshold and she just feels like A door has been thrown open. Everything is fine now. And that's not actually the answer. The answer is you have to cross the tundra. You have to be willing to do stuff that go to the ice palace doesn't feel awesome.

[Brené Brown]

And when you get kicked out of the ice palace, keep going.

[Tara Brach]

Yeah. And.

[Brené Brown]

There are maybe some people who are saying, ugh, Disney stories are just Disney movies. It's just an annoying movie that for little kids. No, it's not. There's any part of you that thinks Frozen is just that dumb movie that kids love. It's not for grown ups. Like, maybe you didn't need this message. Maybe this was not a thing that you needed to hear. Maybe this is not free. Maybe, maybe. But that's fine. But 100% absolutely grown ups made this story. Yeah, it's based on a fine. But it's not that they constructed this story in this way using those songs and those images to tell this story, which is so. I mean, if you're not convinced that Frozen is about this, go watch it.

[Tara Brach]

Again with just the idea that when the parents put on a gloves and say conceal, don't feel, don't let it show. What they're actually saying to her is, your feelings are unwelcome in this family.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

If you're going to have feelings, you need to go to your room.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah. And she's got evidence. She hurt her sister with her passion.

[Tara Brach]

She hurt her sister. And thank goodness there were the magic trolls who could say, forget this happened, heal the injury and just leave the fun. By magic, Anna was protected from the damage that would have been done to her if she had truly been exposed to the isolation built into her family. And some people are magical like that. Some people do have like an inbuilt resilience that even though they come from a. They are raised in uber culture that tells them not to. Even though maybe they come from a family of origin that tells them not to be vulnerable and open and kind and caring and knock, knock, knock, knock, knock. Some people, Some people have that. And if you do, congratulations. Oh my gosh.

[Brené Brown]

To be an Anna. Can you imagine how nice that would be? But then again how hard it would be because you keep knocking on doors and there's so many people who are.

[Tara Brach]

Shut off, closed off.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

And let me. I just want to put up a distinction here because it's important that like, like boundaries really matter. Being able to protect those boundaries really matters. There. There's a. An autistic creator on YouTube who showed like neurotypical Tiktokers really angry, not just about autistic people, but about people in general wearing headphones and sunglasses and not making eye contact, like on public transportation, like on the bus. And oh yeah, this tiktoker was like, make eye contact with me, connect with me. Like she felt profoundly entitled to experience connection with strangers on a bus who are using every socially acceptable tool to avoid having their energy sapped by vampires like her. Yeah. So we don't. When we say Anna, we are not talking about like, you get to be entire you. It means you knock on the door and when nobody comes in, you don't like, rattle the thing and be like, what the fuck is the matter with you? You have to let me in. That's not the, that's not the game. That is not it, kid. Yeah, no, it's not.

[Brené Brown]

Entitlement. And like, another thing about Anna is that because she's been left outside the door, that's what makes her vulnerable to Hans, the big bad. She's so excited about the open door because she's like, oh my God, we.

[Tara Brach]

Finish each other's sandwiches. That's what I was gonna say.

[Brené Brown]

It was it, though.

[Tara Brach]

Yeah.

[Brené Brown]

So, like, this is the thing that is true about autistic people too, is that they tend to be. To just take people at face value and not protect themselves and be a little. Maybe perceived as naive about, you know, relationship dynamics and stuff. And this is what happens when, when the door is closed and they never get a chance to see an open door. As you get, you're. You're made vulnerable to the intensity of having the door open.

[Tara Brach]

Yeah. So to the answer to the question, what if I don't have a bubble of love? The answer is you make it. And yep, one of the ways you can do that is by getting people who know how to be in a bubble of love, which is to say, have healthy relationships. And another way to do it is to heal relationships that can be healed. When I talk about romantic relationships and whether or not you should leave someone, they have to be both willing and able to change in the necessary ways. And a willingness to change, even a desire to change, is not the same as ability. Yeah. Some people just are not ready for the kind of growth that you require in order to be in connection. That fosters your well being. That's, that's, that's not because there's anything wrong with you. And it's, it's certainly not like they don't have an obligation to be a person who is ready to be in a Connection that fosters your well being as well as fostering theirs. But if they're not there and they can't do it, then that's all. That's what, that's. That's what that is. And that person just is not someone who stays in like the innermost bubble of love.

[Guest Singer]

Yeah.

[Brené Brown]

And maybe breaking off that relationship is part of you growing out of a shell and being a vulnerable blob on the ocean floor for a little while.

[Tara Brach]

Yeah.

[Brené Brown]

So that you can.

[Tara Brach]

People have feelings about like ending a relationship and like. Yeah. End the relationship if that what is what feels right. But it's really about finding the distance that is safe and comfortable for you where you don't get trapped in their other person's nonsense. Which may mean leaving altogether. And we can talk about how people manage the fear of leaving a relationship.

[Brené Brown]

But in general, your romantic partners are not going to be the only thing in your bubble. I mean, ideally.

[Tara Brach]

No. For a lot of people, especially for a lot of heterosexual women, their romantic partner isn't even their most important person in the couple.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah. So I don't want to get sidetracked about like romantic relationships necessarily because.

[Tara Brach]

Yeah.

[Brené Brown]

But even with friendships like, like, like in Frozen. Turns out it's not about romantic relationships.

[Tara Brach]

Yeah.

[Brené Brown]

Turns out that's there's a lot of kinds of love.

[Tara Brach]

God, there's all kinds of like, gross. Right wing. This is lesbian propaganda. They are sisters.

[Brené Brown]

Gross.

[Tara Brach]

Can you not like, create space for a story about sisters?

[Brené Brown]

Yeah. God, gross.

[Tara Brach]

Like there is. It's. It's how people show their asses.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah.

[Tara Brach]

Is when they cannot watch a cartoon about sisters without thinking it's lesbian.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah. Just because it's two female characters.

[Tara Brach]

Yeah. Gross.

[Brené Brown]

Gross.

[Tara Brach]

I think you should probably. You should probably tag on the bubble of love song to this. Yeah, sure. I mean, not right now necessarily, because.

[Brené Brown]

I don't do it right now because I'm not doing any other time. Oh, okay.

[Guest Singer]

I want to do and be everything that the world has demanded of me. Sometimes I feel I won't deserve love. Not until I'm productive enough. That's when I need supplementary help to reinforce my boundary. In my bubble of love, I am enough love. In my bubble of love.

[Tara Brach]

They'Re people.

[Guest Singer]

Who care about my well being as much as I care about theirs. We guard each other from outside messages, showing each other we care. Cause I wanna, want and like all the goals that the world has set for my role. Sometimes I fear I don't deserve love. Not until I'm successful enough. That's when I need supplementary help to mind. What gives life meaning in my bubble of love I am enough in my bubble of love.

[Tara Brach]

Kizi. Ukulele.

[Brené Brown]

Yeah, and that was so scary, because.

[Guest Singer]

If feelings are in your body for your whole life, that means I've got.

[Brené Brown]

A whole life's worth of feelings in my body still unacknowledged. This is gonna be hard.