Podcast Summary: Feminist Survival Project – "Unmasking: Or, Masking Part Deux"

Release Date: July 10, 2025
Hosts: Emily Nagoski and Amelia Nagoski
Title: Unmasking: Or, Masking Part Deux

Introduction to Masking and Unmasking

The episode delves deep into the concepts of masking and unmasking, particularly in the context of autism and feminist experiences. Amelia begins by announcing upcoming live sessions on their YouTube channel to further explore these topics, inspired by Devin Price's books Unmasking A for Life and Unmasking Autism.

Amelia (00:00):
"We're talking about masking and unmasking because we got requested to talk about it more and in more detail."

Emily provides a concise overview, emphasizing that masking is a trauma response aimed at safety, but it leads to significant internal dissonance and health issues.

Emily (01:25):
"Masking is a trauma response. You do it in order to feel safe. And it's not good for you because it causes all this dissonance."

Personal Experiences with Masking

Both hosts share their personal struggles with masking, highlighting how it affects their sense of self and interactions with others. Emily discusses feeling alienated from the autistic community due to her unique manifestation of autism, which contrasts with common portrayals.

Emily (02:27):
"I feel alienated from the autistic community by books like this because even among neurodivergent people, I am in a minority in my How Autism Manifests for me."

Amelia echoes similar sentiments, noting that only about half of autistic individuals experience alexithymia, leading to a lack of representation for those who are highly attuned to their internal experiences.

Amelia (03:44):
"Truly, only half of people with autism have alexithymia."

The Consequences of Masking

The conversation shifts to the negative impacts of masking, including increased stress, physical illness, and mental health challenges. Emily shares her struggles with interoception and neuroception, making it difficult to engage in people-pleasing behaviors typically associated with masking.

Emily (04:00):
"I am hyper sensitive to interoception, which is body sensations... I think I am also quite sensitive to what Stephen Porges calls neuroception."

Amelia adds that masking leads to sacrificing one's true self for the sake of others' happiness, creating a persistent gap between who they are and who they present themselves to be.

Amelia (06:00):
"We have less of a sense of, like, self that stops at the skin. Does that make sense?"

Unmasking in Personal Relationships

The hosts discuss how unmasking affects personal relationships, particularly with family. Devin Price's experiences highlight both negative and supportive interactions during the unmasking process.

Amelia (10:45):
"If they're not all good, in which case they are no longer in his life."

They explore the emotional toll of revealing one's true self, which can lead to strained or severed relationships but ultimately fosters authentic connections.

Emily (11:28):
"As we began unmasking... As soon as I put on the mask, I would have to hard solve in the bathtub for half an hour because there's a profound incongruence."

Finding Community Beyond the Mainstream

Amelia and Emily emphasize the importance of finding supportive communities, particularly within the queer and kink communities, which are more welcoming to neurodivergent individuals.

Amelia (13:45):
"He talks about ways you can create social connection out of your special interests, you know, meetups."

Emily elaborates on how these communities embrace diversity in identity and preferences, making them ideal spaces for unmasking and authentic self-expression.

Emily (14:12):
"Neurodiverse people, specifically autistic people, are more likely to identify as kinky and participate in the kink community."

Structural Injustices and Professional Challenges

The episode highlights systemic injustices faced by autistic individuals, including employment discrimination and even deportation for immigrants with autism diagnoses.

Amelia (19:14):
"Turns out there are news stories about people being deported from the UK, New Zealand, Australia, because autism is seen as a medical burden."

Emily shares her personal experiences with job interviews and the challenges of masking to secure employment, only to face ongoing masked demands at the workplace.

Emily (21:44):
"If interviewers know that the person is autistic, they tend to hire that person more often and have more positive feelings."

Strategies for Unmasking

Drawing from both Devin Price's and Megan Anna Neff's work, the hosts discuss mindful and gentle unmasking strategies. Megan's Autistic Burnout Workbook introduces principles like the play principle and the pleasure principle to facilitate unmasking.

Emily (45:18):
"Play is the universal mammalian motivational system of friendship... it's fun and you can stop at any point."

Amelia reflects on reclaiming agency over masking, choosing when and how to wear the mask rather than doing it reflexively for survival.

Amelia (52:12):
"I now am much more conscious of the mask... it's a choice now."

Balancing Masking and Unmasking in Professional Life

Both hosts explore the complex balance between masking for professional effectiveness and the personal cost it entails. Emily discusses how her role as a sex educator relies on her ability to mask naturally, but unmasking leads to concerns about being taken seriously.

Emily (60:25):
"If I do that, I can't teach about sex. I have to be teaching about autism."

Amelia shares her fears of how unmasking could impact her career as a conductor, highlighting the persistent challenges in professional settings.

Amelia (53:25):
"Am I too off-putting for large groups of people? Am I not relatable enough?"

The Dual Costs of Masking and Unmasking

The conversation concludes by acknowledging that both masking and unmasking come with their own sets of challenges and consequences. However, the long-term benefits of unmasking—such as improved health and authentic living—outweigh the immediate discomfort and risks.

Emily (49:54):
"And the solutions are the same. Except even more so."

Amelia reinforces that unmasking requires embracing one's true self, even if it means facing societal rejection or structural barriers.

Amelia (64:53):
"The chasm is just bigger and the cost is higher."

Conclusion

"Unmasking: Or, Masking Part Deux" offers a profound exploration of the intricate dynamics between masking and unmasking for feminists and autistic individuals. Through personal anecdotes, research insights, and practical strategies, Emily and Amelia Nagoski provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the challenges and rewards associated with living authentically.

Amelia (69:15):
"We have never talked about this before... It's a relief that explains so much."

Emily (69:17):
"We don't have to do an episode about autistic burnout because we wrote a book. We did it already."

This episode serves as both a guide and a source of solidarity for those navigating the path toward unmasking and embracing their true selves.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Amelia (00:00):
  "We're talking about masking and unmasking because we got requested to talk about it more and in more detail."

• Emily (01:25):
  "Masking is a trauma response. You do it in order to feel safe. And it's not good for you because it causes all this dissonance."

• Amelia (06:00):
  "We have less of a sense of, like, self that stops at the skin. Does that make sense?"

• Amelia (13:45):
  "He talks about ways you can create social connection out of your special interests, you know, meetups."

• Amelia (19:14):
  "Turns out there are news stories about people being deported from the UK, New Zealand, Australia, because autism is seen as a medical burden."

• Emily (45:18):
  "Play is the universal mammalian motivational system of friendship... it's fun and you can stop at any point."

• Amelia (52:12):
  "I now am much more conscious of the mask... it's a choice now."

• Emily (60:25):
  "If I do that, I can't teach about sex. I have to be teaching about autism."

• Amelia (64:53):
  "The chasm is just bigger and the cost is higher."