Episode Overview

Podcast: Fiasco
Host: Leon Neyfakh (Pushkin Industries)
Episode: Benghazi: Episode 5 - Greatest Hits
Date: September 29, 2025

Main Theme:
This episode explores how the 2012 attack in Benghazi, which resulted in the deaths of four Americans including Ambassador Chris Stevens, was transformed into a long-lasting political scandal targeting Hillary Clinton. Through in-depth interviews with Fox News insiders, whistleblower Greg Hicks, lawyer Victoria Tunsing, and ex-right-wing operative David Brock, host Leon Neyfakh traces the evolution of Clinton scandals, the media ecosystem that amplifies them, and the playbook of outrage that defined the Benghazi narrative in conservative media. The episode highlights the mechanisms of scandal creation and maintenance, the personal impact on those caught in the crossfire, and the shifting dynamics between fringe media, mainstream outlets, and social media in the modern political landscape.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Fox News Coverage: Outrage as Entertainment

• Fox’s Amplification of Benghazi:
  Fox News—under the strategic influence of founder Roger Ailes—devoted relentless coverage to Benghazi, framing it as a political cover-up implicating the Obama administration and especially Hillary Clinton (03:03).
• Editorial Direction from Roger Ailes:
  As a Fox insider put it:

  "By the time you became an executive producer at Fox, you could channel Roger. It wasn't hard. Obama, bad. Muslims, bad. Hillary, bad. Republicans, good. Democrats, crazy. Like it wasn't rocket science." (04:40)

• Incendiary yet Superficial Coverage:
  Fox & Friends Weekend was described by producers as "a morning zoo of political talk" mixing doomsaying with light hearted segments—an entertainment product designed for outrage, not nuanced reporting (06:18).

2. Hillary Clinton’s Testimony & the Birth of a Meme

• Anticipation and Framing:
  Clinton’s 2013 testimony before Congress was built up with teases and slogans—emphasizing not facts but a sense of scandal (08:18).
• The ‘What Difference At This Point Does It Make?’ Soundbite:
  Clinton’s emotional response—

  "With all due respect, the fact is we had four dead Americans... What difference at this point does it make? It is our job to figure out what happened and do everything we can to prevent it from ever happening again." (10:55, Clinton via Camerota)
  —was clipped by Fox to omit her full explanation and spun as callous indifference.

• Manipulation of Narrative:
  Alison Camerota, then a Fox anchor, later criticized the editing:

  "They would end it right there instead of ‘it is our job to figure out what happened and do everything we can to prevent it from ever happening again.’ That’s her next sentence. And they wouldn't always play that part." (13:37)

3. Outrage as Programming

• Training the Audience:
  Camerota described the feedback loop:

  “We did train the audience to become outraged. ...We told them they would be outraged. We told them afterwards, we’re sure they are outraged. And lo and behold, they became outraged.” (14:34)

• Meme Creation & Slogan Use:
  Slogans like "stand down order" became central, regardless of factual accuracy (51:38).

4. Clinton Scandal Origins: Historical Echoes

• The Arkansas Project and Scandal Laundering:
  David Brock explained how early Clinton scandals (Troopergate, Travelgate, Whitewater, the Vince Foster rumors) were manufactured and laundered from conservative outlets into the mainstream.

  "It used tactics of journalism, but it was more like political opposition research without any scruples at all." (21:17)

• Cycle Repeats with Benghazi:
  Brock drew a direct line from the 90s to the 2010s:

  "The idea that Hillary was a liar... was one of the through lines in Benghazi... Every allegation kept getting knocked down and debunked and disproven. Didn’t seem to slow it down. The facts didn’t matter." (30:01)

5. The Whistleblower Moment: Greg Hicks

• Retaliation and Paranoia:
  Greg Hicks, former deputy chief of mission in Libya, described feeling blacklisted after the attacks, drawing comparisons to Vince Foster:

  "I absolutely felt they were a threat to me. ...I was literally afraid for my life." (37:50/40:20)

• Representation by Tunsing & DiGenova:
  Tunsing and her husband—veterans of Clinton-era scandal-mongering—helped Hicks go public.
• The Build-Up to Congressional Testimony:
  Fox fueled anticipation for whistleblower hearings.

  "Guess what? There’s four whistleblowers now who say that they have new information about Benghazi and what exactly happened that night." (41:54, Camerota)

• The “Stand Down Order” Catchphrase:
  Although evidence for such an order was flimsy or misrepresented, the phrase became the catch-all for public frustration and conspiracy.

  "Where’d the stand down order come from?" (47:03, repeated throughout segment)
  "Who gave that order to stand down? Who was it that said don’t send help to our people who were under attack?" (49:27, Camerota)

6. Personal Toll & Media Exploitation

• Victims’ Families as Symbols:
  Patricia Smith, mother of a Benghazi victim, was repeatedly featured by Fox as the embodiment of grievance. Her pain was widely broadcast, often shifting the story from policy to personal emotion (52:44).
• Anchor Dissonance:
  Camerota and others described discomfort with the manipulative coverage and the exploitative use of grief, describing efforts to "preserve my integrity" while feeling complicit in an "outrage factory" (54:13).

7. Shifts in Media Ecosystem

• Mainstream Skepticism Grows:
  By the 2010s, it became harder for right-wing scandal narratives to “jump” into mainstream outlets, partly thanks to increased awareness of media manipulation (59:51).
• Fox News’ Power:
  Scandal-mongers no longer needed to launder through mainstream media; direct broadcast to a large, ideologically aligned audience was sufficient, especially with social media amplification (61:22).

8. Reflections: What Was the Real Impact?

• Did it Work?
  Victoria Tunsing evaluated success not just by policy change, but by whether clients “walked out of the emergency room” (62:25). For Greg Hicks, a new career with congressional Republicans replaced any vindication or restoration at State.
• Greg Hicks’ Own Perspective:

  "It's hard to think that people are just evil. I think that Mrs. Clinton exercised very poor judgment in a lot of instances over this incident. ...Vince Foster, who knows, kill lists, that seems far gone to me. ...That's not me." (64:10)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Fox’s Narrative Direction

• "Obama, bad. Muslims, bad. Hillary, bad. Republicans, good. Democrats, crazy."
  —Fox News Producer/Insider, on channeling Roger Ailes's wishes (04:40)

The Clip That Wouldn't Die

• "With all due respect, the fact is we had four dead Americans... What difference at this point does it make?"
  —Hillary Clinton, played and replayed (10:55)

Insider Reflection

• "We did train the audience to become outraged. ...We told them they would be outraged. ...And lo and behold, they became outraged."
  —Alison Camerota (14:34)

On Scandal Manufacturing

• "It used tactics of journalism, but it was more like political opposition research without any scruples at all. It had no fealty to facts or truth. If it was a myth that could stick, that was fine."
  —David Brock, on the Arkansas Project (21:17)

The Power of a Slogan

• "Stand down order became the catchphrase that just kept on giving. ...It never got old. ...It was too valuable to get rid of, because that kept the viewers watching."
  —Fox News Producer / Insider (49:42)

Personal Impact

• "I'm tap dancing pretty hard on the air, and I'm trying to preserve my integrity. ...It’s just really unpleasant to be part of that outrage factory."
  —Fox News Producer / Insider (54:13)

On Leaving the Clinton Orbit

• "It's hard to think that people are just evil. ...Vince Foster, who knows, kill lists, that seems far gone to me. I've never actually seen a list of names. Show me the names. Give me the facts."
  —Greg Hicks (64:10)

Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |------------|-----------------------------------------------------------| | 03:03 | Fox News as outrage engine, endless story angles | | 10:55 | Clinton's 'What difference does it make?' moment | | 13:37 | Camerota on selective editing at Fox | | 14:34 | Outrage feedback loop described by Camerota | | 21:17 | David Brock on Arkansas Project and scandal laundering | | 37:50 / 40:20 | Greg Hicks’ paranoia and fear of retaliation | | 41:54 | Fox News anticipation for whistleblower hearings | | 47:03 / 49:27 | 'Stand down order' catchphrase | | 52:44–53:27 | Patricia Smith, grieving mother, as outrage symbol | | 54:13 | Producer/insider on moral dissonance at Fox | | 59:51 | Brock on mainstream media skepticism by 2010s | | 64:10 | Greg Hicks walks back belief in Clinton evil, kill lists |

Conclusion

This episode of Fiasco masterfully dissects the lifecycle of a modern American political scandal, showing how the Benghazi tragedy was reframed into potent conservative mythology. It exposes how outrage is manufactured, how historical patterns repeat, and how personal lives are caught in the churn of partisan media. Listeners come away with a deep understanding not only of Benghazi, but of the broader strategies and mechanisms—the “greatest hits”—of American scandal politics.