Iran Contra: Episode 7 - Olliewood

Summary

Fiasco: Iran-Contra – Episode 7: Olliewood

Released on May 19, 2025 by Pushkin Industries, "Fiasco: Iran-Contra" delves deep into the intricate web of political scandal, media frenzy, and Hollywood’s attempt to dramatize one of the most pivotal events in American history—the Iran-Contra affair. Episode 7, titled "Olliewood," specifically explores the intersection of Oliver North's public persona and Hollywood's efforts to capture his story on screen.

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Introduction: The Birth of Olliewood

The episode opens with a historical anecdote highlighting a pivotal moment in Oliver North's career. On the day he was dismissed from his position at the White House, President Ronald Reagan called him, referring to North as a "national hero" and speculating that the Iran-Contra affair would someday become a movie ([02:17]). This moment symbolizes the beginning of Hollywood's fascination with North and the broader Iran-Contra scandal.

Notable Quote:

“Hollywood's already drawing up its wish list for a TV miniseries. It's got all the elements of it. It's a very dramatic story. It's complex, but it's a dramatic story.” — Leon Neyfakh, Host ([02:17])

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Hollywood's Pursuit of Oliver North

Hollywood's interest in Oliver North is characterized by both admiration and opportunism. The media and producers quickly recognize the dramatic potential of North's story, envisioning it as a blend of action, legal drama, and spy thriller.

Notable Incident:

• Hologram Prank: To emphasize North's star power, pranksters in Los Angeles altered the iconic Hollywood sign to "Ollywood" ([03:18]), reflecting the nationwide fascination with North, dubbed "Olimania" ([03:29]).

Notable Quote:

“The scandal had everything you could want in a blockbuster international intrigue. Communist bad guys, secret rendezvous abroad. It was an action movie, a legal drama and a spy thriller all at once. And at the center of it stood a dashing, charismatic man of conviction.” — Narrator ([03:29])

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Ben Bradlee Jr. and the Quest for Authenticity

As Hollywood races to adapt the Iran-Contra affair, Ben Bradlee Jr., son of the legendary Washington Post editor, embarks on writing a book titled Guts and Glory. His goal is to provide a comprehensive and nuanced portrayal of Oliver North, delving into the constitutional crisis that Iran-Contra represented.

Notable Quote:

“I felt that Iran-Contra was a really important story, really, about a constitutional crisis.” — Leon Neyfakh, Host ([04:21])

Bradlee's book is intended to serve as a foundational source for the upcoming television adaptation, ensuring that the complexities of the scandal are faithfully represented.

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Mike Robe and the Birth of "Guts and Glory"

Producer and director Mike Robe senses the urgency to capture North's story before it becomes oversaturated. With the intention of staying ahead, Robe commits to adapting Bradlee's Guts and Glory into a television miniseries.

Challenges Faced:

• Character Development: Crafting a multi-dimensional portrayal of Oliver North, who was already a polarizing figure, posed significant challenges.
• Political Differences: Robe, a former military officer, vicariously understands North's pressures and ideology, which sometimes conflicted with the director's own perspectives.

Notable Quote:

“I was fascinated by Oliver North from the get-go. I was a former military officer. I understood the pressures he was operating under. I understood a lot of his attitude.” — Leon Neyfakh, Host ([06:54])

To address the lack of internal conflict within North's character, Robe introduces a composite character, Aaron Sykes, who serves as North's moral counterbalance within the narrative.

Notable Dialogue:

Oliver North: “The end justifies the means.”

Aaron Sykes: “But that's not what America's about, Colonel. America is about the means.”

This dynamic underscores the ethical dilemmas inherent in the Iran-Contra operations.

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Casting and Production Hurdles

Casting the right actors was pivotal for the authenticity of the miniseries. David Keith, a rising star known for his role in An Officer and a Gentleman, was cast as Oliver North. Amy Stock was selected to portray Fawn Hall, North's secretary, after an extensive audition process.

Casting Challenges:

• Political Alignment: David Keith’s conservative Republican views contrasted with Robe's, creating tension on set regarding North’s portrayal.
• Portraying Real Figures: Amy Stock's commitment to a truthful and multifaceted portrayal of Fawn Hall led her to seek interactions with the real Hall, though she faced resistance.

Notable Quote:

“When I tried to get David to behave as someone undergoing emotional stress, he felt I was trying to make Oliver North look crazy.” — Leon Neyfakh, Host ([31:06])

Despite these challenges, filming proceeded with a tight schedule to align the miniseries' release with the actual events unfolding, particularly North’s trial.

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Parallel Journeys: Filmmaking Amidst Legal Proceedings

As "Guts and Glory" was being filmed, Oliver North's trial commenced, adding a layer of real-time drama to the production. The episode juxtaposes the behind-the-scenes efforts of Hollywood with the high-stakes environment of the courtroom.

Key Events:

• North's Trial: Charged with multiple counts, including conspiracy and obstruction of Congress, North's trial was a media spectacle. His legal team faced hurdles in presenting evidence due to North's immunized congressional testimony.
• Promotion and Filming: The production crew had to navigate filming locations near the courthouse and manage the pressure of aligning the miniseries' narrative with ongoing legal developments.

Notable Quote:

“What happens when you do these things is that the network had already slotted the miniseries for May sweeps... We ended up shooting the entire film in the Los Angeles area with just two days at the end of the schedule in Washington, D.C.” — Leon Neyfakh, Host ([30:18])

The convergence of production deadlines and North's trial created a unique dynamic where art imitated life, often blurring the lines between reality and dramatization.

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Reception and Aftermath

Upon its release, "Guts and Glory" received mixed to negative reviews. Critics pointed out the dissonance between the dramatized events and the real-life complexities of the Iran-Contra affair. The miniseries struggled to capture the intricate nature of the scandal, leading to underwhelming ratings and limited cultural impact.

Notable Criticism:

• A crucial scene depicting North's heroic yet implausible actions in a firefight drew particular ire for its lack of authenticity and over-the-top dramatization.
• The gradual dissipation of "Olliewood" mirrored the public's waning interest in Oliver North, leading to the miniseries being the only significant Hollywood attempt to portray the entire saga.

Notable Quote:

“In the end, I kind of felt like David's defense of North's ideology kind of fit the character. I mean, that's kind of who Oliver North was.” — Leon Neyfakh, Host ([32:22])

Ultimately, the miniseries failed to cement itself as a definitive account of the Iran-Contra affair, overshadowed by the real-life resolution of North’s legal battles and the fading public fascination with his persona.

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Conclusion: The Legacy of "Guts and Glory" and Oliver North

"Guts and Glory" stands as a testament to Hollywood's race to encapsulate political scandal within a dramatic framework. While the miniseries aimed to provide a compelling narrative, it struggled to balance factual accuracy with entertainment, resulting in a lukewarm reception.

Oliver North's legacy, despite the fervent efforts of Hollywood and conservative admirers, did not sustain its initial momentum. The episode concludes by contemplating the reasons behind the ephemeral nature of "Olliewood" and the enduring impact (or lack thereof) of the Iran-Contra affair in American collective memory.

Final Notable Quote:

“Ultimately, the American people judged that there just was no complexity or intellect or reason to keep following this one-dimensional Marine.” — Mike Robe, Producer ([39:48])

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Key Takeaways:

• Media and Politics: The episode underscores the intricate relationship between media portrayals and political narratives, highlighting how Hollywood's interpretations can influence public perception.
• Character Complexity: The challenge of creating multi-dimensional characters based on real-life figures with polarized reputations is a recurring theme, emphasizing the difficulty in balancing factual representation with dramatic storytelling.
• Historical Memory: "Guts and Glory" serves as a case study in how historical events are remembered—or forgotten—based on their portrayal in popular culture and the public’s evolving interests.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• “Hollywood's already drawing up its wish list for a TV miniseries. It's got all the elements of it. It's a very dramatic story. It's complex, but it's a dramatic story.” — Leon Neyfakh ([02:17])

• “But that's not what America's about, Colonel. America is about the means.” — Aaron Sykes ([20:45])

• “I still think Oliver North is a hero. And on the other hand, in any talk about what I might do or pardons and so forth, I think with the case before the courts, that's something I can't discuss now. But I just have to believe that they're going to be found innocent because I don't think they were guilty of any law breaking or any crime.” — President Ronald Reagan ([15:51])

• “I think the story had evaporated by the time we actually got on the air, even though we got on the air as quickly as we could.” — Leon Neyfakh ([37:12])

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Production Credits: Produced by Andrew Parsons, Madeline Kaplan, Ula Culpa, and Leon Neyfakh, with editing by Camilla Hammer, research by Francis Carr, and additional archival work by Caitlin Nicholas. Music by Nick Sylvester and artwork by Teddy Blanks.

Subscription Information: Listeners can binge the entire season of "Fiasco: Iran-Contra" ad-free by subscribing to Pushkin Plus via Apple Podcasts or Pushkin.fm.

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Disclaimer: This summary is based on the transcript provided and aims to encapsulate the key discussions, insights, and conclusions of Episode 7 of "Fiasco: Iran-Contra." For a comprehensive understanding, listening to the full episode is recommended.

Transcript

[Host]

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Have you ever wondered why we call French fries French fries? Or why something is the greatest thing since sliced bread? There are answers to those questions. Everything Everywhere Daily is a podcast for curious people who want to learn more about the world around them. Every day you'll learn something new about things you never knew you didn't know. Subjects include history, science, geography, mathematics, and culture. If you're a curious person and want to learn more about the world you live in, just subscribe to Everything Everywhere Daily, wherever you cast your pod. Pushkin the day Oliver north was fired from his job at the White House, Ronald Reagan called him on the phone and told him he was a national hero. It was a brief conversation, but Reagan found time for some gallows humor, telling north he thought Iran Contra would make a great movie someday. Reagan, a former Hollywood actor with nearly 30 years of experience in the movie business, probably didn't realize how quickly someday would come.

[Host]

Hollywood's already drawing up its wish list for a TV miniseries. It's got all the elements of it. It's a very dramatic story. It's complex, but it's a dramatic story.

[Narrator]

Ollie north was the rare star witness in a political scandal who had actual star quality. Norman Lear, the creator of all in the Family and Good Times, marveled at his stage presence. He gets tears in his eyes, lear said. Tv eats up moist eyed people. There were times when this career military man demonstrated a brilliant gift for using.

[Host]

The media through the day. Across the country, Americans watched as network soap operas were replaced by Oliver North.

[Narrator]

Even before the Iran Contra hearings ended in the summer of 1987, journalists and producers in Hollywood were talking about who should play north on the big screen.

[Guest]

If they ever get around to making the movie of the Contra hearings here in Hollywood. Oliver north look alike. Treat Williams would seem to be the front runner for the leading role.

[Narrator]

At one point during North's testimony, pranksters in Los Angeles covered up the H in the Hollywood sign so that it Ollywood.

[Host]

An anonymous caller, said he made the change, quote, not to condone North's actions, but to give expression to the nationwide wave of Olimania.

[Narrator]

The scandal had everything you could want in a blockbuster international intrigue. Communist bad guys, secret rendezvous abroad. It was an action movie, a legal drama and a spy thriller all at once. And at the center of it stood a dashing, charismatic man of conviction. A perfect cipher for American attitudes about government, patriotism and democracy.

[Host]

Is Oliver North a hero who kept the Nicaraguan resistance alive after Congress had forbidden it, or a zealot who subverted the system by repeatedly lying about his activities and shredding the evidence?

[Narrator]

The expectation in publishing circles was that north would eventually be able to get seven figures for his autobiography, which could in theory be optioned for TV and film. But that could take years, and producers wanted to capitalize on the buzz as quickly as possible. That meant they'd have to find their source material somewhere else. So they turned to journalism.

[Host]

I felt that Iran Contra was a really important story, really, about a constitutional crisis.

[Narrator]

This is Ben Bradlee Jr. He's the son of legendary editor Ben Bradlee, who oversaw Watergate coverage at the Washington Post.

[Host]

You know, the ideologues in the Reagan administration used north as an agent to circumvent the law.

[Narrator]

Ben Bradlee Jr. Was a reporter at the Boston Globe. In February of 1987, it was announced that he would chronicle the Iran Contra scandal in a book called Guts and Glory.

[Host]

You know, he had sex appeal, north, sort of a do it yourself gung ho brand of patriotism and making things happen. Grabbing the bull by the horns, exploiting power vacuums and filling them. That's why I really chose north as a vehicle to tell the story of Iran Contra in this book.

[Narrator]

Bradley was still working on Guts and Glory when an outline of the book started circulating in la. Mike Robe, a producer and director, first heard about it from an executive at cbs. Robe had recently produced a TV movie for the network called Murder Ordained.

[Host]

Unmercifully and without compassion, Murder Ordained was very successful. I was sort of in the good graces of cbs and I was beginning to think about what I wanted to do next. And along came Olimania.

[Narrator]

Robe worked in the increasingly popular genre known as the docudrama, a kind of fictionalized nonfiction that, as Newsday put it, gave viewers instant history, the way a noodle mix and hot water give us instant soup. Murder Ordained was a prime example of the form. It was based on the true story of a minister in Kansas who was accused of killing his wife.

[Host]

It was a crime beyond belief. Starring Terry Kinney, Jo Beth Wigg. They were very popular at the time. The networks were looking for any extra boost in notoriety, in sizzle that could elevate the interest in their project above that of their competition. And it became a whole new art form, an original American art form.

[Narrator]

Robe was intrigued by the idea of making a docudrama out of the Oliver north story.

[Host]

I was fascinated by Oliver north from the get go. I was a former military officer. I understood the pressures he was operating under. I understood a lot of his attitude. I wasn't sure if he was hiding something, but I did feel he's a heck of a performer and he was rather spellbinding to watch. He is unquestionably telegenic. You'd perhaps say that the force is with him. He is a natural. I was working desperately to keep the hostages alive. Good grief. We'd had this stuff all over the newspapers. The Israelis were calling me every half hour and I was working.

[Narrator]

Robe did have some reservations from the very get go.

[Host]

My problem as a dramatist, my challenge was how do you make this terribly convoluted scheme dramatic for a mass television audience in a way that they can come to care about someone in the show and to understand the very twisted machinations of Iran Contra?

[Narrator]

At the end of the day, Robe couldn't say no, and he signed on to adapt Bradley's book into a television movie event. He and Bradley would collaborate on the screenplay while Bradley finished up his reporting. CBS wanted them to move fast. If they didn't, the Guts and Glory movie could end up being just one in a sea of Iran Contra adaptations.

[Host]

No matter which direction you look these days, you'll be facing north. Oliver north has been all over television and he's soon to be all over everything else. We heard rumblings of other networks thinking about doing Oliver North. If your subject is a hot topic, you want to get on the air as quickly as you can. We looked at a lot of pressure in that way.

[Narrator]

Among Robe's would be competitors was a producer named Jay Weston, who had announced his own plans to make an Oliver north biopic. North was reportedly a fan of heartbreak Ridge, Weston's 1986 movie starring Clint Eastwood as a fictional Marine who leads a platoon during the invasion of Grenada.

[Host]

An assistant in operation on the island of Grenada to rescue American citizens there.

[Advertiser]

The island of what?

[Host]

Grenada.

[Narrator]

For the title, Weston was considering grenade Reluctant hero, American hero gone wrong, and carrying patriotism too far. But Weston's project never made it off the ground. In September of 1987, he told a reporter that it had all become too complicated and that life was too short to do that tough A project plus with the congressional hearings over and a stream of shocking revelations dying down, Weston felt like the Iran Contra story was getting kind of played out. In his opinion, there would have to be another twist, some other development that could recapture public interest. One thing that could generate that kind of heat, Westin said, was if Ollie north got indicted. I'm Leon Naifak from Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries. This is Fiasco Iran Contra.

[Host]

Welcome to the National Security Council. Major. You ready to do battle for the administration? Absolutely. On the set, we would have disagreements. You're right about the job, Ms. Hall.

[Narrator]

Fine Hall.

[Guest]

A lot of people probably thought she was a gold digger or a bimbo. I didn't want to portray her that way.

[Advertiser]

His involvement in the Iran Contra arms.

[Narrator]

Deal has left him without a job, but with a new responsibility as conservative spokesman.

[Host]

I fight any way I can.

[Narrator]

Bite, Scratch, Lie Episode 7 How Hollywood Tried to Turn Iran Contra into a Movie While Oliver north tried to avoid going to prison. We'll be right back.

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This podcast is supported by Talkspace.

[User]

When my husband came home from his military deployment, readjusting was hard for all of us. Thankfully, I found Talkspace.

[Advertiser]

Talkspace provides professional support from licensed therapists and psychiatric providers online. Military members, veterans and their dependents, ages 13 and older can get fast access to providers, all from the privacy of their computers or smartphones.

[User]

I just answered a few questions online, and Talkspace matched me with a therapist. We meet when it's convenient for me, and I can message her anytime. It was so easy to set up and they accept Tricare. Therapy was going so well, my husband and I started seeing a couple's therapist through Talkspace, too.

[Advertiser]

Talkspace works with most major insurers, including Tricare. Match with a licensed therapist [e-mail] military go to talkspace.com military to get started today. That's talkspace.com military.

[User]

The new Trump regime is taking a brick bat to norms, the Constitution and the law, seemingly saying to the US justice system, make me will the courts hold?

[Narrator]

What you're seeing right now is a.

[Host]

Fundamental disregard of basic constitutional principles.

[User]

Join me, Dalia Lithwick on Amicus Slate's podcast about the courts and the law to hear from the lawyers, judges, advocates and analysts who have the answers. Search Amicus, that's Am I C U S wherever you listen to podcasts, because legal knowledge is power.

[Narrator]

As you heard in the previous episode, there were three major investigations into Iran Contra the Tower Commission, the Congressional inquiry, and the criminal probe of the independent counsel Lawrence Walsh. By 1988, the first two had completed their work, and only Walsh was still chugging along. Independent counsel Lawrence Walsh is saying nothing. Since his appointment 14 months ago, he Thirty lawyers and 50 investigators have poured over hundreds of thousands of documents and conducted at least 1500 witness interviews.

[Host]

A federal grand jury in Washington has indicted four men for trying to help the countries at a time when Congress had forbidden it.

[Narrator]

On March 16, 1988, a grand jury brought indictments against Oliver north, former National Security Advisor John Poindexter, and Richard Secord, who oversaw logistics for the Contra resupply operation and the Iran weapons sales.

[Host]

All are accused of having participated in the illegal diversion of Iranian arms sales profits to the contras in Nicaragua. Lt. Col. Oliver north was named in 16 counts ranging from conspiracy to obstruction of Congress.

[Narrator]

The charges included making false statements to Congress in response to early inquiries about the Contra war, obstructing the Attorney General's weekend investigation into the Iran arms sales by shredding official documents and defrauding the IRS in the course of fundraising for the contras. Those charges could plausibly be defended as efforts to protect the president's foreign policy agenda. But a few of the other charges Walsh brought against north were harder to frame as acts of government service. During their investigation, some prosecutors in the independent counsel's office suspected that north had somehow enriched himself as part of the Iran Contra scheme. Their thinking was with all that money sloshing around from the arms sales and the donations to the contras, north could have found a way to line his own pockets. As one member of the Walsh team reportedly told his colleagues, no jury will convict north unless they think he's a crook. In the end, the best evidence of self dealing, Walsh found, was a security fence that north had installed at his family home and which Richard Secord had paid for through one of the Swiss bank accounts associated with the Renn Contrast.

[Host]

A gift by Secord out of the security system. The acceptance by north of the security system.

[Narrator]

The fence cost $13,800. Walsh characterized it as an illegal gratuity and alleged that north had tried to cover it up after the Iran Contra scandal broke.

[Host]

North's obstruction of our investigation by developing false documents to conceal his acceptance of that gift.

[Narrator]

North had allegedly gone to a department store and used a floor model typewriter to fabricate a pair of backdated letters in which he discussed paying for the fence with the contractor who had installed it.

[Host]

Meanwhile, the Walsh investigation continues, which could mean more charges against those named today or against others in the Iran Contra affair.

[Narrator]

The prospect of criminal trials for North, Poindexter and Secord invited a host of new questions about how the Iran Contra scandal would play out. Would Reagan be called to testify? And if any of the accused were found guilty, would they be pardoned? Reagan downplayed that possibility, but he made clear that he was standing by Oliver North.

[Host]

I still think Holly north is a hero. And on the other hand, in any talk about what I might do or pardons and so forth, I think with the case before the courts, that's something I can't discuss now. But I just have to believe that they're going to be found innocent because I don't think they were guilty of any law breaking or any crime.

[Narrator]

In the meantime, Ollie north was beginning his second act.

[Host]

While awaiting trial, north has been giving speeches. Last week, this one In Virginia raised $18,000 for his defense. I don't believe that there's anything wrong with faithfulness to this country or its ideals.

[Narrator]

North started touring the country, meeting his fans and raising money for his legal defense fund. In the process, he morphed into something between a politician and a motivational speaker.

[Host]

Friends of Oliver north paid $20 each to listen to a pep talk this morning.

[Narrator]

$150 each to hear the man who fought congress.

[Host]

They love him and his cause. I thought, the man's a hero. I wish we had more like him. He's just what we need in America.

[Narrator]

Somebody who stand up and protect our land. North was invited to address Washington's football team before the Super Bowl. He also delivered the commencement speech at Liberty University, where he was introduced by the school's founder, Jerry Falwell.

[Host]

The first question is always asked, why are you having an indicted man to speak to the students at Liberty University? I said, well, we serve a savior who was indicted. His involvement in the Iran Contra arms.

[Narrator]

Deal has left him without a job, but with a new responsibility as conservative spokesman. With the 1988 election approaching, north became one of the most popular spokesmen for Republican candidates on the campaign trail. Pretty soon, people were wondering when Ollie north might make a run for office. Himself.

[Host]

There has been talk of a political career for Oliver North. Even though he has no experience and no money, north is is a hero to conservatives. He is now free to speak publicly and to criticize Congress. Political careers have been built on less.

[Narrator]

While north traveled and prepared for his trial, Mike Robe was hard at work on the script for Guts and Glory. One of the questions he was asking himself was, how do you craft a multi layered character out of someone most viewers are going to either love or hate before they even see the movie?

[Host]

The problem that I had with Oliver north as I got into his story was that what he believed with all his heart was in the beginning, understandable and somewhat admirable. But he was done in. In his passion and his failure to have perspective on those acts which were illegal and horribly detrimental to the process of government in the U.S.

[Narrator]

There was another problem too. Even though the real life story of Oliver north was full of exciting scenes and details, from a screenwriter's perspective, it was missing something crucial.

[Host]

One of the challenges of writing the script was to give voice to an opposing ethical, moral, legal point of view when it came to the shenanigans that north was carrying off.

[Narrator]

As Robe saw it, Oliver north needed a foil. Someone to challenge his point of view, to generate conflict and introduce a moral counterweight. The trouble was, Robe didn't think that person actually existed in the Reagan White House. Bud McFarlane apparently didn't fit the bill.

[Host]

And I resorted out of necessity, frankly, to a much used docudrama device called the composite character. And I named him Aaron Sykes. I'm looking for Mr. Sykes. That's me. Oliver north reporting, sir. Major, U.S. marines. Aaron Sykes. Tiger. Princeton University. Welcome to the National Security Council. And I made him a colleague of Oliver Norse at the National Security Council. A man who fictionally knew Oliver for most of his career and became the voice of reason when it came to judging Oliver North's misdeeds. Listen, Ollie, were those maps for the Contras? Yeah. But I thought we weren't allowed to pass on any kind of military. Well, the CIA can't. I can. But that's not what we're hearing.

[Narrator]

Why in Aaron Sykes, Robe created a White House official with misgivings. Someone who was willing to push back against North.

[Host]

There's a line I remember at one point when north is facing expulsion from the nsc. North is irate and he. He says to Aaron Sykes regarding all of his transgressions, he doesn't care, because the end justifies the means. The end justifies the means. You're Damn right. And Sykes retorts, but that's not what America's about, Colonel but you don't understand. America is about the means. Wake up and smell the dog crap, Aaron. We're fighting for democracy down there by keeping it a secret from democracy here. Sell that somewhere else, Colonel. And that's the way in which Aaron Sykes became the conscience of Oliver North. But also the rebuttal from so many Americans who were polarized and critical of what north represented.

[Narrator]

With a tight deadline from cbs, Robe and his team got started on the other major part of pre production, finding the cast.

[Host]

Once the miniseries was announced, there was this national furor, this big brouhaha over who should play whom. I was hearing crazy things like Al Pacino should play Oliver north, or Farrah Fawcett is obviously Vaughn Hall. That was very popular. I kind of recall. However, there wasn't quite as big a flood of interest in playing Oliver north himself, which is kind of ironic and maybe, maybe that can be chalked up to liberal Hollywood.

[Narrator]

The production team eventually found their Oliver north in one David Keith, a Tennessee farm boy, turned up and coming actor.

[Host]

Who was probably best known at the time in his role as Richard Gere's Buddy and Officer and a Gentleman. I'm just not like you, Mayo. I can't shit all over people and just sleep like a baby at night. And I was fine with that choice. I. I was fine with David as an actor. I think he was okay with me as a director. What I didn't know was that he was a staunch conservative Republican, and I wasn't. It may be bullshit to you, Buddy, but I wasn't raised that way.

[Narrator]

One of the most sought after roles in Guts and Glory was that of Fawn Hall, North's secretary, who had testified before Congress about shredding documents and smuggling them out of North's office in her clothes.

[Guest]

When I first moved to Hollywood, I had kind of a little career going playing older actresses in younger flashback scenes.

[Narrator]

That's Amy Stock. She had started her career playing the younger version of Joan Van Arc's character on the soap opera Knott's Landing.

[Guest]

You know, I was very generic blonde, and so when Vaughn hall came around, yeah, the resemblance was pretty striking.

[Narrator]

Stock had just wrapped an arc on the hit drama Dallas when she landed the audition for Guts and Glory.

[Guest]

I went for the initial call, and I'm pretty sure it was either the shredding scene between Oliver north and Fawn Hall.

[Host]

Are you sure? Hell no. I wanted to show this to my grandkids, but I'VE never disobeyed an order in my life.

[Guest]

Or it was the interview when Sheena walks into Oliver North's office.

[Host]

You're right about the job, Ms. Hall. Fine Hall. Ms. Hall, if you'd like to come aboard, I'd be honored.

[Guest]

And then I was called back, basically because I looked so much like her. I'd like to think it was because I was a great actress, but, you know, I think it was more because I looked a lot like her and then got the part and was thrilled. Major North's office. And I immediately said, I want to meet Fawn Hall. I want to talk with her. I want to get close to her as I possibly can get about her story and her side of things.

[Narrator]

Stock wanted to do Fawn hall justice, both because it was her first time playing a real person and because she felt Hall's portrayal in the media had been rather one dimensional.

[Guest]

Well, I'm just going to say it. She came across as kind of shallow, you know, like a glory seeker in the newspaper. And she had this tiny minor role, important in what happened, as it turns out. But a lot of people felt that she was trying to promote herself during this whole thing. And I didn't want her to come across that way. So I tried to make her as honest as possible that she truly believed that what she was doing was right.

[Narrator]

Stock tried to schedule a meeting with hall to get a better idea of her experience and motivations. But hall did not want to talk. The rumor was that she had hoped to play herself in the movie, but that idea was ultimately shot down. As Robe said at the time, it would have blurred the line between the illusion of reality and reality itself. Stock did not give up. She knew that Fawn hall had moved to Los Angeles after her star turn in the Iran Contra hearings. She had started hanging out with celebrities and was said to be engaged to Rob Lowe. As it happened, Stock's Guts and Glory co star David Keith ran in the same circles as Hall. So Stock asked him to put in a word for her. And one night it seemed like he was going to make the introduction.

[Guest]

We all met at the Chateau Marmont. David was going to this rave which were very popular back in the late 80s. And so he invited us to come along and he said, fawn hall will be there. And I went, oh great. I would just love to even meet her. So let's go.

[Narrator]

The party was in the Hollywood Hills. The guest list included celebrities from the A list to the Z list. And the music was loud.

[Guest]

Some kind of 80s pop crap, you know, the stuff that goes boom, chicka boom, chicka boom, you know, and you just can't really think. And there were a lot of people around, and one of them was Madonna, and she was sitting at David's table and. And so I got to meet Madonna and it was great. In Fawn hall, she was there. I walked up to her and I said, hi, my name is Amy Stock, and I will be playing you in Guts and Glory. And honestly, she gave me a look. I don't even remember her saying hello necessarily. She just kind of walked off with that.

[Narrator]

Stock let it go. Hall just wasn't going to talk to her. Thirty years later, she declined to talk to me too. Guts and Glory started filming in Los Angeles in the winter of 1989. At almost the same exact time, the trial of Oliver north was getting underway in a Washington courtroom.

[Host]

After nearly a year of legal wrangling, the trial of former White House aide Oliver north began today in federal District Court in Washington.

[Narrator]

From the outset, North's attorney and the independent Counsel's office were locked in a procedural battle over evidence. The fact that north and Poindexter's immunized testimony before Congress could not be used against them meant that Lawrence Walsh and his prosecutors could not rely on it in any way while making their case. That didn't just mean the prosecutors couldn't refer to it. It meant that none of their witnesses could either.

[Host]

North's attorney's arguments that grand jury witnesses had been exposed to the highly publicized congressional testimony.

[Narrator]

The judge in North's trial instructed witnesses not to rely on any information they had learned from his immunized congressional testimony. But that was hard to enforce, and there was always a chance something inadmissible would slip out. That created a huge risk for Walsh's prosecution. It also presented an opportunity for North's legal team should they find themselves having to appeal an unfavorable verdict. Instead of a military uniform, north wore a simple blue suit to the first day of his trial. Sitting next to his lawyer, Brendan Sullivan, he filled multiple yellow legal pads with notes. The trial was covered by all the major networks.

[Host]

On the witness stand today, former Reagan administration Attorney General Edwin Meese. Today's witness was Adolfo Calero, a rebel leader who described north as, quote, the savior of the Contras. Oliver North's former White House secretary, Fawn hall, came to court today to testify at her former boss's trial. Hall also told of the intense atmosphere in North's office and how he would occasionally break the tension with jokes, including some about how he may end up going to prison. She said, he's a man with a wonderful sense of humor.

[Narrator]

Meanwhile, in California, the cast and crew of Guts and Glory were trying to make their deadline. They had about 40 days to shoot the entire film.

[Host]

And what happens when you do these things is that the network had already slotted the miniseries for May sweeps. That's the period of time when the network is judged on its ratings. So we were pushed. We ended up shooting the entire film in the Los Angeles area with just two days at the end of the schedule in Washington, D.C. to pick up backdrops that would ground us in real world.

[Narrator]

Robe and his crew arrived in Washington a few weeks into North's trial. At one point, they were shooting a scene at the Jefferson Memorial, less than two miles from the federal courthouse. In the scene, Oliver north tries to recruit Richard Secord to run the Contra resupply operation.

[Host]

Director wants you, General, and your country needs you. I'm a businessman now, and this is a business proposition. With the usual markup, the CIA is making a fortune.

[Narrator]

Writing in the New York Times, Maureen Dowd described it as a collision of art and life being played out back to the Future style. By this point, the relationship between Mike Robe and David Keith had become strained. As it turned out, their political differences placed them at odds on the question of who Oliver north was and how he should be portrayed in the movie.

[Host]

David liked essentially that north said what he believed and believed what he said and acted on it. Now, once again, the same gang of Reds are establishing a potential nuclear base right in our own hemisphere in front of us. Mr. President, we're not ready to lick up his ant island, sir. What's become of us? There was a period and a scene where Oliver north was hospitalized during a rocky time in his marriage, during the time he had come back from Vietnam and he was hospitalized for emotional stress. What did the doctor tell you? Emotional distress, whatever that means. That's documented. But when I tried to get David to behave as someone undergoing emotional stress, he felt I was trying to make Oliver north look crazy. And I tried to say, David, that's why he's in the hospital.

[Narrator]

David Keith, who didn't respond to interview requests for this podcast, told People magazine that he had tried to make north more of a hero and Robe had tried to make him less of one. We probably wound up with something around the truth.

[Host]

In the end, I kind of felt like David's defense of North's ideology kind of fit the character. I mean, that's kind of who Oliver north was.

[Narrator]

We'll be right back.

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[User]

The new Trump regime is taking a brickbat to norms, the Constitution and the law, seemingly saying to the US justice system, make me Will the courts hold?

[Narrator]

What you're seeing right now is a.

[Host]

Fundamental disregard of basic constitutional principles.

[User]

Join me, Dalia Lithwick on Amicus Slate's podcast about the courts and the law to hear from the lawyers, judges, advocates and analysts who have the answers. Search Amicus that's Amicus wherever you listen to podcasts, because legal knowledge is power.

[Host]

The Oliver north jury began debating criminal charges today against the former Reagan White House aide with strong ties.

[Narrator]

After eight long weeks, Oliver North's trial began winding down. On April 21, 1989, the jury began its deliberations.

[Host]

The fate of Oliver north now rests with the jury in his charge to the jury.

[Narrator]

In the midst of those deliberations, the cast and crew of Guts and Glory were in the final days of a promotional blitz before the premiere of their movie.

[Host]

David Keith is Oliver North. Peter Boyle is John Poindexter. Amy Stockpoint is Fawn Hall.

[Narrator]

David Keith appeared on the COVID of TV Guide in a white Marine dress uniform. Uniform journalist Ben Bradlee Jr. Went on fresh Air with Terry Gross to talk about the adaptation of his book.

[Guest]

You describe in your book the phone.

[Host]

Call that President Reagan made to Oliver.

[Guest]

North, and he ended, according to your report, this phone conversation by saying to north, I'd say this is going to make a great movie one day. I think it's kind of funny that your book is actually becoming the first movie about Oliver North.

[Host]

Yeah, and actually it's even funnier that that very scene is in the movie, which when I saw it, makes me laugh. It's sort of a self fulfilling prophecy, I guess. And I'm satisfied that the film will do the book and history justice.

[Narrator]

On April 30, nine days after jury deliberations began, part one of Guts and Glory premiered on CBS.

[Host]

You don't ask good men to risk their lives for nothing. You fight to win.

[Narrator]

It was the 31st most watched program of the week behind Bionic Showdown, the return of the $6 million man and the bionic woman. The second half of guts and Glory was set to air a few days later.

[Host]

A secret operation explodes. But taking the heat could destroy Oliver North. Never done anything criminal, ever. The stunning conclusion of Guts and Glory tomorrow.

[Narrator]

Reviews for Guts and Glory were not positive. It is fitting that television is rushing to tell North's story before it has concluded, wrote a TV critic for the San Diego Union Tribune. And particularly fitting that a story so confusing has become even more muddied when told in a television drama.

[Host]

I think some of the critics didn't quite know what to make of it. They had their expectations. The ratings in the end, weren't particularly great.

[Narrator]

Critics were especially harsh about a scene in which Oliver north flew a plane through a firefight in Central America to rescue a group of soldiers.

[Host]

No, it's a waste of fuel, Tad. The man's dead. Get the wounded. Get the wounded. Get the wounded.

[Narrator]

In his book, Ben Bradley Jr. Had noted that the story may have been apocryphal because no one had ever heard of north being able to fly. But the main problem, according to a review in the Buffalo Times, was that America seemed to be ollied to death already.

[Host]

I think the story had evaporated by the time we actually got on the air, even though we got on the air as quickly as we could. I mean, people had had enough of Oliver north one way or the other. It had been fricasseed and fried and stewed.

[Narrator]

Olly mania, it seemed, was not a phenomenon. It was a f.

[Host]

The jury now has spoken and answered the question of Oliver North's guilt in the arms for Iran. What happened to the money case?

[Narrator]

On Thursday, May 4, 1989, two days after Guts and Glory finished airing on CBS, the jury in North's trial returned.

[Host]

A verdict leading the news this Thursday. A jury found Oliver north guilty on three of 12 counts. The guilties came on charges of obstructing Congress, destroying government documents, and accepting an illegal gratuity in the form of a security system at his home.

[Narrator]

On all the other charges, the jury found north not guilty, an indication that they didn't see him as a ringleader or even a rogue operator, but it.

[Host]

Seemed to be saying, we're not going to throw the book at him. This was the low man on the totem pole. So we agree he did something wrong, but we're not going to buy all of it. We're not going to pile on.

[Narrator]

North immediately appealed the verdict and took the opportunity to address the media.

[Host]

I have just a very brief statement that is that today's verdict by the jury here in Washington is a partial vindication for what has been, for my family and me, a very long and difficult process. We will continue this battle. We will be fully vindicated. Thank you.

[Narrator]

Guts and Glory ended up being the first adaptation of Iran Contra to be released, and strangely, it was kind of the last. Though there have been a few feature films about the Contra war, Hollywood has failed, at least so far, to produce one definitive account of the whole saga. There is no all the President's Men for Iran Contra. And though Oliver north has held on to various forms of relevance over the years by appearing on Fox News, leading the NRA and running unsuccessfully for a Senate seat, I think it's fair to say that he has not endured. As an object of fascination, I've been trying to figure out why why north didn't last, why Iran Contra didn't last, why Guts and Glory ended up being Hollywood's only attempt to capture the story. Mike Robe thinks a big part of the problem is Oliver north himself.

[Host]

Ultimately, the American people judged that there just was no complexity or intellect or reason to keep following this one dimensional Marine. Frankly, a Marine does what it takes. I fight any way I can. Bite, scratch, lie. Because in the end, America's worth it.

[Narrator]

The Washington Post review of Guts and Glory summed it up nicely, saying that north as portrayed by David Keith did not live up to the status of tragic hero because his flaws were mundane and his heroics self aggrandizing. I think that's true about Oliver north as portrayed by Oliver north too. Even when he published his memoir in 1991, north came across as a man without much capacity for self doubt or inner conflict about the events of Iran Contra. After the sugar high of Oli Mania north, it just wasn't that much fun to keep thinking about him and so he faded away. There's another theory I've heard about why Iran Contra isn't more prominent in our collective memory. The theory is basically that the ending sucked. Instead of crescendoing into impeachment proceedings or prison time, Iran Contra evaporated gradually. One year after his trial, North's conviction was overturned because of concerns over witness testimony being tainted by immune statements. As for Ronald Reagan, he got to ride off into the sunset as a triumphant two term president, succeeded by his VP, George H.W. bush. As it turned out, Bush had some ideas of his own about how Iran Contra should On the next and final episode of Fiasco, the Independent Counsel's office tries to finish its work on Iran Contra while contending with two presidents at once.

[Host]

The three leading television channels ran the story of the Vice President and all hell broke loose.

[Narrator]

For a list of books, articles and documentaries we used in our research, follow the link in the show notes. Fiasco is a production of prologue projects and it's distributed by Pushkin Industries. The show is produced by Andrew Parsons, Madeline Kaplan, Ula Culpa and me, Leon Nayfak. Our editor was Camilla Hammer. Our researcher was Francis Carr with additional archival research from Caitlin Nicholas. Our music is by Nick Sylvester. Our theme song is by Spatial Relations. Our artwork is by Teddy Blanks at chipsny. Audio mix by Rob Byers, Michael Rayfiel and Johnny Vince Evans. Copyright Counsel provided by Peter Yossi at Yossi Butler PLLC thanks to truetvmovies.net, eddie Brandt's Saturday matinee, Anne Rowe, Robert Papazian, Jim Hirsch, Jay Weston, Michelle McGonagall, the Writers Guild foundation, the Paley center, as well as Sam Graham Felson, Katya Kamkova and Soraya Shockley. Special thanks to Luminary and thank you for listening. Binge the entire season of Fiasco Iran Contra ad free by subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Sign up on the Fiasco show page on Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin FM plus. Pushkin plus subscribers can access ad free episodes, full audiobooks, exclusive binges, and bonus content for all Pushkin podcasts.

[Advertiser]

This podcast is supported by Talkspace.

[User]

When my husband came home from his military deployment, readjusting was hard for all of us. Thankfully, I found Talkspace.

[Advertiser]

Talkspace provides professional support from licensed therapists and psychiatric providers online. Military members, veterans and their dependents ages 13 and older can get fast access to providers, all from the privacy of their computers or smartphones.

[User]

I just answered a few questions online and Talkspace matched me with a therapist. We meet when it's convenient for me and I can message her anytime. It was so easy to set up and they accept Tricare. Therapy was going so well, my husband and I started seeing a couple's therapist through Talkspace too.

[Advertiser]

Talkspace works with most major insurers including Tricare Match with a licensed therapist [e-mail] military go to talkspace.com military to get started today. That's talkspace.com military.

[Narrator]

Hi, I'm Jane Coston, former writer and podcaster for places like the New York Times, the Atlantic, and National Review. And now I'm here to hang out with you five days a week on what a Day, Crooked's daily news podcast. That's right. Now, who's respected on both sides? These days, it's hard to separate what matters from all the noise, especially when the noise is an elderly guy mumbling conspiracy theories he heard on Newsmax. That's why every weekday, the team and I scour the headlines to bring you the stories that matter most to the way you live. In just 20 minutes, you can listen to the show. Wherever you get your podcasts, you're listening.

[Host]

To an iHeart podcast.