Ep 464: Hiring A Director Of Talent To Shape The Development Of Next Generation Advisors (And The Lead Advisors Who Train Them) with Katie Calagui

Summary

Financial Advisor Success Podcast Episode 464
Hiring a Director of Talent To Shape the Development Of Next Generation Advisors (And The Lead Advisors Who Train Them) with Katie Kalaghi
Host: Michael Kitces
Guest: Katie Kalaghi, Owner of Katie Kalaghi Consulting
Date: November 18, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of the Financial Advisor Success podcast dives deeply into the evolving dynamics of talent development in advisory firms. Michael Kitces is joined by Katie Kalaghi, an expert on people operations and talent consulting in the financial advisory industry. Together, they explore both the strategic and tactical approaches required to attract, train, and retain next-generation advisors—and the crucial role a specialized Director of Talent can play in driving firm success. They also confront the cultural, technological, and interpersonal challenges that often hinder effective people development, offering rich anecdotes and actionable advice for leaders, advisors, and early-career professionals alike.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Role and Impact of a Director of Talent

• Why Invest in Talent Development Roles:
  Katie emphasizes the need for a dedicated function focused on people development, distinct from operational HR. Firms scale only by growing people, not just processes or tech (09:09, 16:32).
• Early Adoption and Results:
  At Hewins Financial, Katie helped professionalize employee experience, which contributed to significant firm growth: doubling staff from 30 to ~100 in five years (13:48).
• Distinct Functions:
  "There's HR, and then there's your people strategy and your people development... our people are our biggest growth strategy.” — Katie (48:17).

2. The Human Factor in Advisory Firms

• Challenges of 'People Stuff':
  Michael comments on the tension between wanting to serve clients vs. managing people, calling out the "service business full of humans" dynamic (02:51).
• Emotional Load and Burnout:
  Katie spotlights burnout and the invisible load (especially for women), urging leaders to facilitate support and flexibility (84:03).

3. Creating a Culture of Growth and Collaboration

• Real Executive Teams:
  A high functioning exec team isn't founder-controlled, but operates collaboratively with experienced leaders working autonomously within their expertise (16:34).
• Building an Internal Talent Engine:
  Hewins Financial’s proactive strategy included recruiting from university programs, mentorship, clear career pathways, and promoting quickly (17:24, 23:24).
• Notable Firm Culture:
  “We had a culture where we’d go out, we’d find great talent, train them, and let them do their job.” — Katie (18:24).
• Transparency and Support:
  Advisors were made aware of new expectations: they’d be developing others and given direct coaching support, not left to figure it out alone (22:07, 29:19).

4. Measuring Success in Talent Development

• Multiple Metrics:
  Advisor performance tracked by client and people outcomes: client retention, revenue growth, staff retention, promotions, comp increases, engagement (22:36, 23:48, 39:13).
• People Outcomes Matter:
  Even high producers weren’t forced into management if it wasn’t a fit; strengths-based placement trumped a one-size-fits-all approach (25:25, 26:19).
• Pipeline Planning:
  On ratio of people developers to advisors: “Probably maybe 10 to 20%... are better focused on not running a team. The rest need to get pretty good at it.” — Katie (45:11).

5. Coaching, Training, and Manager Development

• Coaching as Primary Tool:
  Leadership and people development often starts with 1:1 or group coaching, supplemented by external leadership consultants, internal mentorship, and study groups (29:19, 31:57).
• Offsites and Formal Learning:
  Regular team off-sites and annual retreats help with both skill building and cultural cohesion (33:29).
• Performance Management Redefined:
  It’s about clear expectations, continual feedback, visible career paths—not just annual reviews (54:47).

6. Adapting to Technological Change

• AI & Intern/Associate Roles:
  Some firms are tempted to shrink entry-level hiring because of AI automations (note-taking, workflows) (61:26).
• Katie’s Perspective:
  “Don’t slow down your talent growth... if AI can take notes, great, because we can get our associates doing more meaningful work sooner.” (63:08, 63:20)
• Critical Thinking Still Key:
  Reviewing cases, writing emails, mastering planning—these learning experiences shouldn’t be automated away (64:19, 64:54).

7. Helping Advisors Grow—Without Losing Them

• The Retention Fear:
  Many firms worry about “training people just to leave.” Katie’s not concerned:
  “If you’re a great place to work, people won’t leave... make sure you’re truly living your values… and investing both time and financially in the development of your people.” (67:52, 68:30)
• What Makes a Great Place to Work:
  • Feeling part of a family
  • Being valued and seen
  • Open communication and respect
  • Good systems, fair compensation, and manageable workloads (69:36, 69:46)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Myth of a Talent Shortage:
  “Our industry says we have a talent shortage... There’s 300 million people in the country! At worst, we have a shortage of training of the talent.” — Michael Kitces (04:57)
• On Collaboration vs. Founder Control:
  “It’s not like a command and control type of leadership. It’s a collaborative team that leads together.” — Katie (16:34)
• On Coaching’s Power:
  “The biggest lift you get… is one-on-one coaching. It’s super, super powerful when you have a space to really unpack situations you’re facing as a leader.” — Katie (30:40)
• On AI and Pipeline Risk:
  “I feel a ton of caution bells...do not want to blow up your talent pipeline. If AI can take notes, that’s great, because we can get our associates doing more meaningful work sooner.” — Katie (63:07)
• On Measuring Advisor Team Success:
  “Are you retaining your people? Are your people happy?... Are they growing and being promoted? Are we giving compensation increases?” — Katie (22:36)
• On Retention Fears:
  “Most people don’t want to go start their own business... Focus on being a great place to work. Make sure you’re really, truly living your values...” — Katie (67:52)
• On Culture’s Real Test:
  “Our biggest goal was... when people are playing to their strengths and they enjoy the work they’re doing, they’re happier and productive wherever they are. And when you’re happy and productive, you’re going to grow your career.” — Katie (41:53)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Katie’s Background & Path into Talent Management: 05:13–14:35
• Building an Effective Executive/Leadership Team: 16:32–18:24
• The Talent Engine & Recruiting Practices: 17:24–24:59
• Measuring Success for Advisors as Developers: 22:17–25:25
• Coaching & Professional Development for Managers: 29:19–35:00
• Centralized vs. Team-Based Training Approaches: 43:05–44:48
• Director of Talent Role: Scope & When to Hire: 46:24–51:48
• Talent Challenges in AI/Tech-Enhanced Firms: 61:26–65:09
• Advice on Retention & Creating a Great Place to Work: 67:52–72:41
• Career Paths & Performance Management for Advisors: 54:47–60:14
• Compensation/Title Pathways for Team Nurturers vs. Soloists: 38:41–41:29
• What Makes a “Great Place to Work”: 69:36–72:41
• Katie’s Consulting Coaching Framework & Pricing: 73:05–77:12
• Closing Thoughts & Reflecting on Success: 88:31–89:15

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For New and Growing Firms

• When to Consider a Director of Talent:
  Typically when reaching 30–40+ employees or ~$10M+ revenue (46:24).
• What That Role Includes:
  Both HR operations and all aspects of culture, employee experience, leadership development, feedback systems, and performance management (50:24).
• If You’re Still Small:
  Outsource HR operations, focus on fractional or part-time coaches/consultants for people development until full-time makes sense (54:22).

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Practical Advice for Advisors and Firm Leaders

• Clarify Expectations Early & Consistently:
  “70% if not more of breakdowns...are because of lack of clear expectations.” — Katie (55:09)
• Play to Strengths, Not Roles:
  Not everyone should be forced into people management – let the natural developers rise (26:19, 41:29).
• Proactive Talent Pipeline is Critical:
  AI can enhance, not replace, the critical thinking and relational skills built through traditional pathways (63:28).

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Conclusion

Katie Kalaghi encourages the advisory profession to see people strategy and development as central enablers of growth—not afterthoughts. Building, training, and empowering a next generation of advisors is a leadership imperative, requiring commitment, vulnerability, clarity, and a willingness to continually improve firm culture. The decision to elevate a Director of Talent or equivalent signals a maturity that not only fuels business expansion, but also positions the firm as “a great place to work” where everyone can thrive.

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For further resources, visit Nerd’s Eye View at Kitces.com

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(For detailed segment navigation, see timestamps above.)

Transcript

[Michael Kitces]

Welcome to the Financial Advisor Success Podcast where you go behind the scenes with financial planner, speaker and consultant Michael Kitces to hear stories of how leading financial advisors navigated the inevitable challenges that arise on the path to success and get insight from leading industry consultants about how to break through to the next level in your advisory business. And now, here's your host, Michael Kitces.

Welcome everyone. Welcome to the 464th episode of the final Financial Advisor Success Podcast. My guest on today's podcast is Katie Kolaghi. Katie is the owner of Katie Kalaghi Consulting, a coaching and consulting firm that works with financial planning firm executives and leadership teams. What's unique about Katie though is how she supports firms in building out their talent development capabilities to boost employee retention, create a pipeline of next generation advisors and ultimately facilitate stronger and more sustainable growth. In this episode we talk in depth about why Katie thinks that firms can benefit from investing in a people development role that spends their time focusing on firm culture and training rather than operational HR issues how Katie finds that the best places to work are where employees feel like they're part of a family being valued and seen in their organizations, while those that struggle tend to have controlling leaders and employees aren't trusted to take on higher level work and Katie's key metrics for determining whether a firm's people development strategies are successful, including promotion and retention rates as well as growth in advisors, total client headcount and average client size. We also talk about why Katie thinks that maintaining a strong talent pipeline is as important as ever for firms, even as artificial intelligence powered software tools become increasingly capable at handling tasks such as note taking commonly performed by newer employees How Katie believes that improved AI support could actually allow firms to accelerate their talent development, for example, by giving emerging advisors more time to think critically about client conversations they join and how they might approach them themselves and how Katie finds that firms benefit when getting newer advisors involved in business development, in supporting senior advisors, in keeping the process organized and in starting to build out their own networks and be certain to listen to the end Where Katie shares that while many advisory firm leaders think their talent issues are unique, that many share the same problems, often around areas such as expectations and a lack of clarity How Katie counsels early career advisors to play the long game and build their skills and relationships to set themselves up to thrive in what could be a multi decade career and why Katie thinks the best coaches are those who are able to draw out the wisdom firm leaders already have and then help these clients gain the courage to apply it. And so with that Introduction. I hope you enjoy this episode of the Financial Advisor Success Podcast with Katie Kolaghi. Welcome, Katie Kolaki, to the Financial Advisor Success Podcast.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Hi, Michael.

Thanks so much for having me.

[Michael Kitces]

I really appreciate you joining us today and I'm looking forward to getting to really dig into all the dynamics that crop up when we, when we try to train new advisors in our firm. I guess sort of the general term, like developing talent. Right. It's, it's, it's hard for most of us. I mean, I think we're, you know, advisory firms. I mean, I kind of joke sometimes, like we're, we're businesses full of humans serving humans and humans do human things. Humans are going to human. And that makes it hard, you know, for a lot of advisors. Like, it's, it's not necessarily. We got into it for. Right. I got into this to serve the clients, not to, not to manage people. And I just, I see a lot of very practical challenges with firms. Like we, we hire too late because we underestimate how many months or years it takes to get a team member to a certain level. Or we get frustrated that it feels like they're learning too slowly and that we can't handle things as quickly as we wish. Or we get turnover and then we have to do it all over again. Which for some of us is why we say I'm just going to stay a solo so I never have to hire a person. Then I have to never have to deal with turnover and I won't have to worry about that stuff. But, but because it's a, like the advice business at the end of the day is a service business where the services are delivered by people we live between. We're the services between what the tech does. Otherwise someone Silicon Valley would just make like a financial planning tech thing and take all our businesses away. It's like we have to grow by people. And when we look at any industry research, there's an almost perfect linear correlation that every time an advisory firm doubles its clients in revenue, it doubles its people like plus or minus a very small percentage. But, but almost all of us seem to struggle with the actual training and developing people part. So I think today just, I'm excited to get to talk about how we actually like bring people in and train them in our firms and not have this all be a frustrating mess. Not to frame it too negative. That's where it is. Our whole industry says we have a talent shortage. And I'm like, there's, there's like 300 million people in the country like, we can't have a talent shortage. At worst, we have a shortage of training of the talent. Can't have a talent shortage when there's 300 million people who don't do financial planning, who could be hired into our firms.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yep.

[Michael Kitces]

So, right. I think to. To kick off this discussion, first just give all, everyone who's listening a little bit of context of just who you are and what you do. So we, we kind of understand the background here.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah, I think just to follow that thread, I think the ultimate goal of what I do, that I tell people is I really try to make this journey we're on and growth for firms more fun and easy. That is helping them with the people stuff because we can solve our business problems pretty easy. It's the relationships, it's managing people, it's holding each other accountable, giving feedback. All of that human stuff like you described that creates friction and stress for us. And so I really work with firms on helping to work with them through those human dynamics so that they can have an easier, more fun ride in this business. So I think where I got started was really in this business. I was kind of a science nerd growing up. I loved science and health. I was a biochem major through college, but I watched my father build his advisory firm in the early 90s when I was a child. So, yeah, I always say I've had a front row seat to this business from a very young age. You know, he was a stockbroker out of college, did that for, you know, a few years and just really felt very early on that he wasn't aligned with that. And so he was one of the early RAA firms that started back in the early 90s and became a fiduciary. And at the time, you know, you know, that was really difficult. It was a big uphill climb.

Very difficult.

[Michael Kitces]

I mean, that was, we talk about like the Independent channel is a little bit more pioneering and build your own stuff.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah.

[Michael Kitces]

The reality today is there's actually a really big ecosystem of like tech providers and platforms and things to support you. But yeah, back then it really was like, look, I found land. Let me bring a saw and cut down the trees and we'll make a log cabin with our own two hands.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah, I mean, it was nothing. There was nothing there. And there was so much.

Just social headwinds. Right.

I mean, to talk about passive investing or indexing in the early 90s or talking about being a fiduciary and not bragging about your stock picks and stuff, I mean, it was just there were so many uphill battles that I watched him go through.

And we felt it as a family.

It changed our lifestyle. We made a lot of sacrifices for that pursuit. So that's kind of my front row seat to what it took to start this business. Kind of what G1 experienced. And so he convinced me. I started my career in biopharma and drug development, which was a really interesting experience because I was working with these highly cross functional teams. I just kind of landed in project management. So I was on these teams with scientists and marketing people and doctors and business people. And so it was just this really dynamic group of personalities. And as project managers, our job was to get them to work together and get a project over the finish line on time. And a big project, right? A clinical study which had a ton of nuances to it. So. So I got a lot of like really good exposure to human dynamics. And they invest a lot in leadership training in those organizations because it is because of the heavy people dynamics that have to work. And so I really fell in love with that and just working with this diverse group of individuals. But my dad convinced me to make a career switch. He pulled me into his firm in.

My late 20s and he was at.

That point where he had to hire people.

He was growing, he had a few.

Advisors, was a pretty siloed model back then. He loved the investments, he loved working.

With clients, you know, the people stuff.

And running the business was hard. And my brother was also at the firm at the time. So my brother and I really helped him build the practice and grow it. So I realized, you know, I became an advisor. I wanted to learn what it was like to work with clients. It was really rewarding. But I also kind of ran the business for him. And so I immediately started getting involved in a lot of study groups and people that were thinking about the business now from the internal side.

And it was really clear to me.

That, you know, having watched my father do this, I'm like, wow, okay, this idea worked. These businesses are growing. This is going to be really successful. The only way we grow is through people. We don't make a product, you know.

We don't make widgets, like only deliver.

What we do through people. And there wasn't this emphasis on the employee experience the way there was on the client experience.

And so I became really passionate about.

How do we create an employee experience that can attract and keep great talent, how do we develop that talent and create that next generation growth engine for the firm. So I got really passionate there and Being in study groups, I had an opportunity pop up where a growing firm was looking to build out a formal talent department. They wanted to hire a director of talent management. They were very ahead of the game in this way. They were starting to recruit young advisors right out of college, build a bench and just create this people engine for the business, which was very smart and very, again, ahead of the game at the time. So I took that opportunity, left my dad's firm after being there for almost a decade.

[Michael Kitces]

Wait, wait, sorry, I gotta pause there for a minute. So tell me about leaving dad's firm after being there for a decade running the firm, where I'm gonna guess there were some era parents, kinds of assumptions probably building up by then.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah.

Well, so I will start by saying my dad is young. My parents had me pretty young, had.

Me when they were 20 and 21. So at the time that I left, he actually had a very long Runway.

And that was part of why it.

Was a good time for me to leave. Because he and his business partner were.

Not ready to really hand over the reins yet.

They were okay.

They really liked what they're doing. And yeah, it was a family business. And to your point, all businesses, the human dynamics are hard. So we had that extra layer of family dynamics. But I think, you know, my one, we were all very committed to our family relationship being the most important. And my father's always been super supportive of wanting me to just all of us, all of there's four of us in the family of really playing to our strengths and going out in the world and doing what we do best.

So it was, you know, it's not to say it wasn't easy. It was a very hard decision. It was a very hard process to go through.

A lot of growth, growing pains for the firm for sure, throughout that. But overall, he was very supportive. My brother was very supportive.

And yeah, we just continued to navigate the business together and be great thought partners.

[Michael Kitces]

So what were you being pulled out for or towards? What was this siren song in the other direction?

[Katie Kolaghi]

I really wanted to be in a growth environment. I wanted to really focus on the practice management and building a bigger company. At the time, my father's firm, him and his business partner, they liked being a boutique firm.

They were really comfortable with where they.

Were, weren't looking to hire and expand the team super aggressively at that time.

And I was just really excited about.

Growth and working with more people and.

Building a team and learning how to.

Really take this business from a practice to a professional organization.

So that was what I was pulled towards was the chance to do that. I was hired directly onto the leadership team of. At the time it was Hewens Financial, Whipley Huins. They were partnered with a large accounting firm in the Midwest.

Like I said, they had a huge recruit. You know, they were really trying to.

Build a recruiting engine out of the universities which. So I got to go on campus and meet with students and you know, really help students start to carve their path in the career, but then also work with the advisors who now had to manage and lead people and build teams. Great at working with clients, but not so much at working with people and developing younger talents. So I became kind of the in house coach for them, which was just a lot of fun. And it was just clear that's where my passion was, was around the people, development and leadership side of the business. So, so that's what I was really drawn to and why it made really good sense for me.

[Michael Kitces]

So I guess help us understand a little bit more of the, the firm, I guess the, the, the size of the firm. Like how many, how many people, how many advisors, how many teams? Like just what was the scope here?

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah, so it was a pretty big.

Shift going from a small, you know, boutique ria, where I think there were.

Maybe seven of us at my dad's firm. So at the time Heughan's Financial had.

Merged with Whipley llp, which is an.

Accounting firm in the Midwest.

So they were the wealth management arm for Whipley. And So in the RIA, we had.

I think about, gosh, probably 30ish people. And I think we doubled that over.

The time I was there.

When I left, we were actually about.

Closer to 100, which is what, over what time period? That was over a five year time period.

[Michael Kitces]

Okay.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah, so they had one office out.

In the Bay Area.

So I am originally from the San Francisco Bay Area.

And so I was working out of.

That office with that team.

But then they had advisor teams.

There were like eight or so offices across the state of Wisconsin and a few in Minneapolis.

So they had these small advisor teams.

Kind of spread throughout Wisconsin and Minneapolis. So multiple offices. I think There are about 3 billion under management at the time. It might have, I don't know, we might have started at 2 and grown to about 3. But very high growth. You know, Roger Hewins was the founder.

Of the financial advisory firm Hewens Financial.

And he had just done a really great job early on at investing in the business and he invested in people. You know, he was very tech forward too but he really, really invested in people, and not just people, but leaders. So he had built a very cross, functional, experienced leadership team. And they all were able to really run their departments autonomously and grow them.

So that was a really great thing to see. And I think that's why the firm was able to grow as rapidly as they did. So, so it was a, you know, like a full, real executive team. It was probably my most favorite team I've ever been on. It really upped my game. It was just a great dynamic on that group. It was really gender balanced, which I think was. Actually worked really, really well. And so, yeah, so that was kind of the scope of the company and what we were doing. And we had the overlay of trying to work through this partnership with an accounting firm. So testing that model of can we sync up and grow our businesses together and you know, whatnot, which has a lot of complexity as, you know.

So, yeah, so lots of fun stuff.

And lots of challenges.

[Michael Kitces]

So I want to understand a little bit more like just a very, I would say mechanically, practically, like how this, how the people development stuff started happening there. But, but I actually want to go back a moment. You, you made some very interesting comments about humans as it had come in that like they had, what do you say, sort of quote, like real, real leaders, a real executive team that could run their departments. So just. Can you talk more about what. I mean, what does that mean? What is, what is a real executive team and how does that contrast to the not so real executive teams that most of us have?

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah, I think it really, you know.

Most candidly, it's when it's. That's not founder controlled. Right. It's not like a command and control type of leadership. It's actually a collaborative team that leads together. And so, you know, that's. Everyone on that team was very experienced in their area. So they had knowledge, they had expertise in the area that they were leading and they had the freedom to operate there.

We were really good at collaborating.

We talked through things in a very professional way, but we also stayed in our lane and you know, again, we're able to really focus on those parts of the business. There wasn't a fear to hire. You know, I think that was just such a distinguishing factor was, you know, Roger just didn't have that concern of, oh, we're over investing in people or.

We'Re hiring too many people. You know, he just knew that like.

That was the only way we could.

Grow was through people.

And so there was just a mindset and a Culture of, you know, we go out, we find great talent, we hire them, we train them, and we let them do their job. And so they. So from a advisor pathway, you know, they started an internship program. They had already started getting into universities. You know, having the accounting firm in Wisconsin. We had a great feeder program out of UW Madison. They have a financial planning program there and just had great students. So we got on campus, started, you know, at the intern level, got those interns into associate advisors, you know, were very quick to promote them. Like, there was this culture of, we want you to grow and we want to hand over the reins. We don't want to hold people back and make them, you know, pay their dues for a decade before they're called an advisor. So it was just a kind of a mindset of, like, yeah, we're going to be a big team and we are going to invest in people. And there just wasn't that fear or concern of, like, oh, we got to hold back or we're hiring too many people.

[Michael Kitces]

I hear that the phrase that you said, that stuck for me, right? Just we had a culture where we'd go out, we'd find great talent, we'd train them and let them do their job. And it's a part of me. It's like, well, yeah, if we always went out and got great talent and then they did a great work at their job, I would hire more people, too. It doesn't feel like that's necessarily how it always works out. So what. What was different that when they went through that process, they got the great talent person who trained up really well and then was wonderfully successful in their job, because I did. Don't feel like that's necessarily how the story always goes.

[Katie Kolaghi]

No, it definitely doesn't. Yeah. Yeah.

So I was lucky.

So I reported into Martha Post. She was the COO at the time. And, you know, Martha was so, so supportive of everything that I, you know, brought in terms of people in leadership training. You know, a lot of times when you talk about people development and leadership training and investing in our people and, you know, giving feedback, a lot of. A lot of people like, run for the hills, right? They just. It's not what people want to lean into. But she really believed in that and gave me a lot of room to bring that into the organization. So starting with coaching, the managers, actually calling out to the advisors that we were putting these new advisors on their team, these associates said, hey, you have.

A new skill you have to build.

And that is you have to learn how to lead a team and be collaborative with your people and develop these people. So we called it out and then we gave them support with it. So whether that was me coaching them, whether that was bringing in outside training, I was in charge of, you know, the off sites for the company all year and all of the internal development activities that we did. I worked very closely with every hiring manager and when they ran into a snag with an employee and things weren't going well, I was on the phone with them, coaching them through that. And then if we needed to bring in outside coaches, we did that too. So there was just, you know, a mindset and a belief and support to do that and to invest in it, which is the biggest thing. Right. Like, you have to be willing to invest in it. So, yeah, I mean, it was. We, you know, of course we had great advisors, great business developers that were terrible at managing people, you know, and that was, it was difficult and a lot of work. So, yeah, it was not like smooth sailing. But I think the thing that we did that was different was that we recognized that need and we didn't try to brush over it or fix it with other things. We recognized, like, we have to help people learn how to work together.

[Michael Kitces]

I'm fascinated by this because, yeah, like, for, I think for a lot of advisors, the first time they go down this road of, well, now, now I'm hiring someone, now I'm working with someone and there is this, like, I have to manage them. Like, we, I mean, no one really says, like, I don't want to be collaborative, but in practice, some of us are not. Not actually as collaborative as maybe we think we are. We don't necessarily want to spend the time training and developing the people because I want to serve the clients and do and do the other things. So I am struck in that world where I see a lot of firms say, like, well, I know we'll centralize all the financial planning under director of financial planning. We'll put all the paraplanners under there. We'll have the director of financial planning try to train them all and then the advisors won't have to deal with this. That you just like, you took this very opposite tack of saying, like, no, we're just going to be candid with all of you team leaders. Like, this is part of the gig now. And if you aren't doing it, we're here to help you to learn how to, like, you will be learning how. It doesn't sound like it was really optional. It was just sort of like, congratulations.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah, yeah. And we had to start by building that into what their expectations were and what success looked like holistically for their role.

So it was really easy to give them.

Well, it wasn't easy, actually. We had to do this too, right? Like, give clear metrics on what does it mean to be a successful advisor.

Right.

We had to get better and more uniform about doing that.

[Michael Kitces]

But then we had what metrics showed up. Like, how do you metric? Yeah, especially when you're getting things like develop your people.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Right? So on the advisor side, it's, you know, client retention. How many clients are you managing?

Is your average size client going up?

Are you bringing in referrals and closing them? Right. Like, those are the things that we can evaluate to know, is this a. Is this advisor performing well? Right. Are they being successful as an advisor? But we had to add to that, you know, what does it look like to be a successful people leader? So it was now this holistic look at, are you retaining your people? Are your people happy? You know, are they growing and being promoted? You know, are we giving compensation increases? Because that shows people are developing. Are they sitting in meetings with you and starting to take the lead in meetings? So there was this whole new set of performance outcomes that we had to share with them. We'll develop and share with them around what it meant to be successful holistically in their role.

[Michael Kitces]

Can you even take that one step further? I mean, just like, what are you. What are you measuring? When are you measuring it? Right? Like, are you. Are you retaining your people and are they happy? Are they getting comp increases? I mean, like, are these, Are these monthly metrics? Are these annual metrics? Like, some of these, I kind of get how to measure I, you know, turnover, retention rates. But are your people happy?

[Katie Kolaghi]

Like, yeah.

[Michael Kitces]

I don't know. Bob seems pretty chipper when he comes into the office.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Well, you know, when your people aren't happy. And part of that was we had created a safe culture for that. So, you know, we. We had a great hiring approach. And so, you know, we hired pretty top talent. And so they were not shy about wanting to know what they had to do next to get to the next level, about wanting opportunity, wanting to do well. And so if they were feeling stifled or frustrated, I mean, I heard about.

It, so they called me.

And so, so it was really clear. It's pretty easy to know, like, where are the teams that are having the most friction? Where are we team members that are getting disengaged or frustrated? And it's really obvious when they leave. And that definitely happens if young advisors especially, and this is now almost a decade ago. At that time they were in the driver's seat in terms of talent competition. So if you were two years in as a financial planner and you weren't happy, you could get a job pretty easy then.

So we had pretty good competition and.

People weren't hesitant to leave and move if another firm gave them a bump in title or a bump in compensation.

So, so it's, it was pretty easy.

To flesh out and see, you know, where were teams struggling and where were they really thriving.

[Michael Kitces]

And so then how does that show up for the advisor? I mean, right. The, the quintessential moments. Usually, you know, advisor has big client base and great retention and brought in a lot of assets and isn't scoring well on some of your people metrics. Like are you really going to fire them if they're not doing that well? Like how does this.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah, no, that's the idea. Totally. That's the other big part of it is also putting people in the right seat on the bus. Right. You know, both are traction folks. And so, you know, there's some advisors where we recognize like managing people was not going to be their strength, but they were a huge asset to the organization. They were great with clients. You know, they might have been great at business development. And so we also tried to be very skillful and strategic about who among our more senior people, you know, have more strengths around developing and working with talent, are just, you know, naturally show strengths in that area, but also want to learn and develop in that area and have kind of raised their hand. So we tried to be strategic about that and we weren't trying to force anybody who didn't have those strengths into that role because, you know, I'm a big, I'm doing a strengths finder workshop in a few hours with a team here.

Right.

So, you know, I'm very much a.

Believer in focus on people's strengths and not their weaknesses.

So it wasn't a requirement per se for every advisor, but we had to.

Identify enough that could also be good.

Leaders so that we could develop our talent.

[Michael Kitces]

So you end out, I mean, I'm just trying to visualize this across a larger organization. So you, you end out with a series of advisor teams and some advisor teams just have a person at the top who's doing awesome things for their clients because they're great at the client stuff and maybe have a little bit of support around them because that just helps. And then other Advisors really do have an interest in the people development in training and bringing up associate advisors. And so their teams become the ones that are the training grounds with a steady flow of talent coming in and growing up through them.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah, that was certainly one approach that we took. The other thing that we did then or you could do now that I would consult with clients on is you also can look at the next level. Right. So if, if your top person, your most senior advisor isn't a great people leader, look at the people maybe a level below and move them up a little bit faster into a people develop, people development role. So that, you know, is something that I find very often is that we kind of have this sort of dormant talent sitting there in terms of people that are stronger at managing and leading people, and so just elevating them faster into that role. And, you know, they always surprise us, like every time we've done that, whether it's in client service teams or ops teams or advisor teams, when you find people that the rest of the team really likes to work with, they're very collaborative, just supportive leaders. Formalizing them into that role sooner than later is another really good strategy.

[Michael Kitces]

So can you talk a little bit more for the. So you go out the team and you say, we're going to be adding new associate advisors to your team and you have a new skill to build. You need to start learning to be collaborative and actually develop your people. So some team members say, awesome, I love that. Some of them say, grumble, grumble, leave me alone. And it sounds like you kind of left them alone. And then there's some subset in the middle. I'm assuming they're like, okay, kind of sounds interesting. Don't really know how to do that. Really nervous. But hey, like, I like learning. Like, okay, maybe I can get good at this. But you have to actually figure out how to train and develop them to be the good managers to then train and train, develop others. So what, what do you do? I mean, what, what literally what was the training systems or the process or the tools? What did you have to do to bring up these people who were advisors and said they had a willingness to learn, to develop talent, but they still had to learn how to really do that and what that means.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah, so I think. And this kind of goes back to something you said earlier. So I'll talk about this in the bigger firm context and then I can talk about a little bit in terms of what I see now. But when I was working within, at Huan's Financial, in particular, the Mindset we had too was that you can't outsource that role to hr. And I think a lot of firms try to do this right. And so having that culture of we're going to teach you how to fish was really important. And so with those natural leaders, coaching was a huge part of it. So whether it was one on one coaching with one of our executive team members, because all of them were really good people leaders, so making sure they had a good mentor or person that was coaching them on how to do that, coaching with me internally or bringing external coaches in, I think the biggest lift you get, and this is why I do this now full time, is one on one coaching. It's super, super powerful when you have a space to really unpack situations that you're facing as a leader, have somebody who can kind of put a lens to that and help you develop self awareness and what's going on for you in those situations and then learn the tools that you can apply to handle those more skillfully. It's just, that's where you're going to get the most lift in terms of leadership development.

But you augment that with getting them.

In study groups and around other leaders, going to conferences.

We brought in a lot of in house training. We did pretty regular in house team.

Events where we did leadership training and skill building there. So you know, it's, it should be multidimensional. But I think the recognizing that there has to be, you know, that coaching, whether again it's from a direct manager and, or an outside person, how important that is because you know, it's, it's something you have to learn.

It's not like you said, like being.

Humans is very challenging. So there's a lot of skills to learn there in terms of developing self awareness and eq.

[Michael Kitces]

So when you talk about setting this up internally with mentor coaching other leaders of the firm you like, is it, I'm just sort of wondering, is there a structure? I mean, is there a. You always have a weekly one on one with one of the executives for your coaching mentoring session or once a month or. No, no, no. It's just kind of ad hoc. Like when you're dealing with a thing, this is who you go to, who can, you know, be your wizened sage and help you figure out how to get it. Like what was the structure to it? I'm assuming like everyone's busy and has a lot of stuff going on.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah.

So I'll talk through the lens of my clients now because my clients that are doing this what we do is they've, you know, it's both. So I have a regular cadence of coaching with the executive team leaders. So I coach them as a team, but then also individually and then they select kind of their next level leaders within the firm. And I coach them on a regular cadence as well. So, you know, whether that's bi weekly or monthly, it kind of depends on the role. But getting into a regular cadence of coaching is a really important component. But then, you know, also I am available ad hoc as needed, so my clients can call me if you know. I mean, things pop up right in the middle of the week that we don't expect. And so if there is a situation in the moment, we can get on the phone and kind of talk through that together and I can kind of help, you know, coach and guide them through those situations. So that works really well and they've really invested in that and they see it, you know, they can see the impact that has on helping them all learn how to one, work together better, more effectively, but then also develop their talent. So that's kind of how like the coaching works. And then, you know, all of my clients get their team off site at least once a year, some of them three to four times a year, where we come together as a group and we do some skill building together, work on building relationships, work on practicing those skills, like giving each other feedback or learning about each other's strengths, whatever it is. But you know, making, taking time out of the business to learn how to work together and be a team. So setting that up into kind of.

More formal trainings and workshops and retreats is another key component of what we do.

[Michael Kitces]

So, so now take me back to the, the advisory firm. I'm still just pressing through this. You, you've told the advisors they need to be better managers or become managers and people developers and be more collaborative. So was there other training or tools you put in place beyond the coaching or was like the coaching was the thing, the key, the driver here?

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah, I mean, I'm trying to think back in terms of, I mean we.

Like, you know, like I said, we would bring in outside leadership consultants and.

Experts that would do in house training with us, you know, being partnered with withly. We had access to, you know, they were a 3,000 person organization, so they had a whole training department.

They had actually, you know, contracted internal.

Training methodologies and programs that they had.

That we had access to.

So that was great.

So that could be a combination of.

Some online learning tools, some, you know, workshops that they did throughout the year on a regular basis that, that we.

Were lucky our employees could go during the workday and pop into those.

So it was yeah, a really kind of diverse approach of some kind of textbook presentation learning, if you will, and.

Then coupled with kind of the in.

The moment coaching that we would do.

[Michael Kitces]

So for folks who are listening who have not gone down this road.

[Katie Kolaghi]

How.

[Michael Kitces]

Do you find the good experts, consultants? I mean like one of my. If I'm an advisory firm with two or three lead advisors and I don't know, probably five to 15 people, right. Like I'm just sort of starting down this road. We've got a couple of multiple, a couple of lead advisors, we've got a couple of people is probably not happening well and consistently across the organization about who's developing or not. Like how do I, how do I find the right people or program? Like what am I even looking for?

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah, I mean, well, I'm lucky. I have a very big group of great coach friends that I know, so certainly give me a call and I've got a big network of folks in the industry. But I think if you're going to study groups and you're going to industry conferences, talk to your peers about it because a lot of people are starting to engage coaches. It's great to see. And more people are using EOS implementers and strategic consultants as well. And so I just ask around and ask about who's had a good experience and who people are using. Don't hesitate to ask because everybody struggles with all these people things. So if they, you know, if you ask somebody and they haven't engaged a coach, they're probably looking for one as well. So, you know, I would say ask around.

You know, I tell people when you're.

Looking for a coach, kind of how we give people advice on how do you select an advisor. You know, you want a coach that is great at listening and being able to draw your wisdom out from you. So you know, coaches aren't there to give a lot of advice. They're there to kind of walk this path and help you discover things about yourself and wisdom that you have and then help you build the courage to apply it. And so you want someone who, you know, when you're with a coach, you want to feel like you're in a really safe space. There's a high degree of comfort and.

Rapport, really non judgmental space.

Right. Like we can talk about all of our flaws as humans very openly and as managers. I mean, I always coach my younger, earlier career folks on letting them know that, hey, when I'm talking to leaders and executives and executive coaching sessions, they're just as nervous to manage you as you feel to be led by them or intimidated by them managing people and having tough conversations and giving feedback, it's really intimidating, it's emotional. And we all, the reason it's hard is it all stems from the same fears we have. We don't want to be confrontational, we don't want people to not like us, all of these things. And so everybody has that at any level, to be able to feel like you're in a really safe, nonjudgmental space and that, you know, someone's asking really good questions and listening really well and helping you, you know, uncover solutions that really align with your values and with the goals that you have for whatever situation you're dealing with.

[Michael Kitces]

So, and then I just want to come back once more. So how, how does this evolve for the advisors over time? When you get some who, I'll say just, I don't mean that in a pejorative way, but like some who just continue to be the awesome client service people and grow their client base and others who become team growers and talent developers, do they get a different title? Do they get different compensation? Do they get different bonuses? I mean, like, how does this vision, like you're a large firm when you're doing this, so these people start gravitating down very different looking tracks over time. So how does that show up in the title structure? Compensation, does it get reflected? Is there a difference between the great client servicers and the great team builders?

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah, I mean, that's always quite an art to get right. So just with compensation there, there's multiple factors that go into every compensation discussion. And as you're kind of building out your compensation tables for what it's worth. So that's always a multifactorial discussion. So you're looking at how are individuals adding value to their role and where are they strong at and you're accounting.

For those in different ways.

So I wouldn't say that one gets paid more than the other. I think it really, it's very individually based.

In terms of titles. That's kind of a firm preference. It sort of depends on how the role evolves.

I think when I was in the firm setting, in the company setting, everybody had a certain basic level of expectation in terms of you have to be collaborative, you have to follow our values, so you don't necessarily need to be the best people, developer or leader, but you still have to be a productive person to work with and a collaborative person. That was first of all had to level set there. Like, you know, that's kind of the no asshole thing, right?

Like you can't just get away with.

You know, being toxic and creating problems.

So assuming like that was a level.

Playing field, then it was, you know, again, getting people to play to their strengths and compensating them appropriately for that. And so sometimes that would be different. Sometimes it might get to, you might get to the same place. If you have an advisor that maybe doesn't do as much business development but is growing a team of, of six associates and doing it really well, and then you have another advisor that's out doing more business development, they might come in close. You know, it kind of depends again on that whole picture.

[Michael Kitces]

So it sounds like it wasn't necessarily for you, like the, I don't mean to make this a like better, better, worse thing, but it, it wasn't a, you know, look, the client, you know, the, the big, the big revenue client servicers are, are, are still at the top and the, and the associate builders are second class. Nor was it like, no, no, no, we're a, we're a talent growth organization and the team growers are at the top. And if you're just serving your clients well, like that's fine, but you're, you're, you're not the same level. Like it, it sounds like just you, you had some of each. Both were fine. I guess you, you wanted some of each or you need some of each because yep, someone's going to be doing some talent development. But it was, it was okay to be either path. It was less. At the end of the day, everyone actually has to learn to be a good talent developer and more. Let me at least put this out there and let the talent developers raise their hands. I guess the natural ones or the ones that are just willing to learn and then we'll put the time and energy into them. But not everyone's going to do it. And that's still okay?

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah, yeah, 100%. And I think, I mean you've known as our business has evolved that mindset and culture across the board around valuing all of the roles that it takes to make these businesses work is super important. And so again, our biggest goal was we know that when people are playing to their strengths and they enjoy the work they're doing, they're happier and productive wherever they are. And when you're happy and productive, you're.

Going to grow your career. You're going to do well financially in this business. And so that just kind of, that's the formula that works, is getting people focused in work that they love doing.

And that they are able to grow.

In and get good at and place to their strengths. And then again, creating that culture where all of those roles are valued, it's not. Yeah, there's not like a hierarchy of oh, you're, you're worth more and more valuable if you choose this route or that route.

[Michael Kitces]

And, and I guess sort of for, for the record, as it were, like what. Why push it out to the teams and not just do this more centrally? Because I do see firms that are, they hire like a centralized director of financial planning. They bring in a whole bunch of paraplanners, they train them there and then they like move off to their own teams or like start their own teams once they're ready to graduate out of the centralized department. But they, they don't put it on the lead advisors, they do it more centrally. So I'm assuming there was some intentionality to do this. It's like all the advisors, we're setting a new expectation. You should be practicing the skill of being more collaborative and developing your people. So why the intentionality to be team based development versus centralized development? Or was there?

[Katie Kolaghi]

Well, I think that was just that one experience, but I think both can work. I think there's a ton of value. I mean we actually had, that was an. Another big thing we had done was we centralized client service, which was a great move. We had a director of client service, you probably know her, Jandy Rowe, who is excellent at building a client service team. And her client service people reported to her, not to the advisors.

That worked really well.

And other firms will, maybe associates will report into one particular lead advisor that kind of owns training and development for that. So the centralized models can work really well. But at the end of the day, who you work with day to day, you still have to be able to have a collaborative relationship with and they still have to be able to lead you productively, even if they're not necessarily reporting to you. So like if you're sitting in meetings with a lead advisor, whether or not they're your direct manager or not, a direct report, that lead advisor still needs to give you feedback. They still need to be available to help answer questions and, you know, support your training and your learning.

And your.

Interpersonal dynamics have to be strong. So that lead advisor has to earn your trust and they have to help make you feel safe and comfortable in your role. And so I think regardless of reporting relationship, everyone needs to learn how to.

Work well with others.

And if you're advancing in the firm, you have to learn how to lead and support the next folks coming in, whether you're officially their manager or not on paper. So I think even if you centralize and again, I think either way can work and that's really company based. But even if you are centralized, you still need your lead advisors to be.

Collaborative, supportive leaders, if you will.

[Michael Kitces]

And was there some ratio of advisors who can develop people versus the rest that you wanted or had to shoot for? How many people like this do you need in your organization to be able to sustain the talent flow and pipeline?

[Katie Kolaghi]

In terms of like, okay, if you look at the number of people that are maybe your advisors that have to lead teams, I would say yeah, there's probably maybe 10 to 20% of them that are going to be better focused on not running a team. And the rest need to get pretty good at it. Because you have to create as a growing organization, you really have to, to create this kind of development engine. Right. So it just, it needs to be like you always need to be recruiting at the intern and associate level and you know, those folks need to be moving up. So like to have that engine work, you know, your top level advisors need to be actively engaged in that in some capacity for the most part.

[Michael Kitces]

And I know going all the way back. So what, what was your like role and title in the firm? It seemed like you had this central role of being the coach developer to have all of these different advisors and to make all this happen. Presumably like you have to be a certain size firm to be able to have a role like that. But just tell me what was the actual role? What did they hire you to do? How big was the firm at the time? When do we get a seat like this in our organizations if we're growing? Growing.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah. So. Well, when I got hired, I was hired as the director of talent management. I think they were around one and a half or two billion at the time. Again, I think there was like about 30 to 40 people. And then eventually I was the chief people officer. So at that point we had grown.

To about 100 employees. Okay.

[Michael Kitces]

Yeah, okay, okay. So that, that's helpful just for, for context. So I'm assuming just by, you know, revenue plur employee numbers, like they were, they were a 10 million revenue organization, give or take a little when you, when you came into one of these roles, say, okay, we've got 30 plus people, we're going to have someone whose job is specifically focused on making sure all the organization is developing the people.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah.

And, you know, and there's two. And what was unique about that is that, I mean, there's two parts to that, right? So there's HR and then there's your people strategy and your people development. And it surprises me how so many of these larger firms right now, they wrap all of that into one person and they have one person doing that for hundreds of employees. It kind of amazes me how many firms are still doing that. I mean, I talk to these, and they might just be directors of hr, even HR managers that are just trying to do both of those roles for really, really large teams. And I think we were talking about earlier in the conversation that, like, our whole business is built around people. It tends to be the place that we invest in the least. And so I think, you know, for growing firms and firms are getting larger, they really have to think about both of those functions. One, making sure they're both covered, but thinking about them differently. So your HR function, that's kind of your operational piece, that's super important. Like, you need somebody that's running the operations for your internal clients, your employees. So, you know, benefits, all of the.

You know what it's like to work.

There, like payroll, compensation. I mean, there's so many operational details around people, and that needs to be managed really well with people that are good experts in that. But then having somebody also dedicated to the people strategy and the development, and to me, I would put that in the growth part of the P and L. That's kind of similar to hiring your marketing team, because our people are our biggest growth strategy. You know, it's like developing our people is how we grow our business. And so we should think about that from an investment standpoint, the same way we think about investing in marketing and sales. And in fact, if we're investing in marketing and sales, it's crazy to not be investing in our people development, because if you're getting a bunch of leads, they have to go somewhere, you know, so you have to have the people that can service those and take them on. And so I think that that firms that are growing would be really wise to one, invest more holistically on the people strategy, but then make sure you've got the ops really covered so that people are having a good experience at work and it's easy to get the support that they need, and it's easy to get their questions answered and you're competitive and staying ahead of the game on the benefits and compensation standpoint and that you also have somebody who can really put their focus toward, you know, culture and development and the experience of growing the talent as your growth strategy to support the growth of the firm.

[Michael Kitces]

So I don't know if you can recall in detail, but I guess can you, can you list out like what, what was in the job description for director of talent? Because it's like I hear, you know, chief people officer, I'm like, like cool. But like that, that's a, that's a big firm. Like that's a big, big firm thing. Most of us are not large enough that we're really going to have like a C level executive chief people officer, but like a director of talent, when I get to a couple of dozen people feels at least a little more within reach if I'm, if I'm a faster growing firm. So what is that seat?

[Katie Kolaghi]

I mean it was both of what I described. It was kind of that all encompassing role. So you know, I, for me it was all of the HR stuff. So making sure you handling all that operational piece, our benefits, recruiting, compensation reviews, performance reviews, all of that, you know, more tactical operations and then also the people development piece as well.

So yeah, so it was, it was kind of all encompassing.

[Michael Kitces]

And does that include the, just for some firms like the, the culture aspects as well? I know people and culture is showing up as a. Yeah. A title in that, that sort of business function now. So all of that was wrapped in as well. It's like you had all the people things.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yes. Yeah. I mean I was, you know, that role is definitely your big champion for culture. But I always, you know, I think culture really is owned and driven by the leadership team, you know, so that, that group really has to own culture and they have to, they have to model it first and foremost. So. But I think the, the people person tends to be the champion for that and they're the person that are also really connecting with employees and making sure that they're hearing the experience they're having, they're seeing what's happening in practice and making sure that the culture that the company wants to have or is aspiring to have or thinks that they have is actually happening at the ground level.

[Michael Kitces]

So what came next for you on your journey?

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah, so after wifli, I went to Savant, which was about twice the size as chief people officer as well. So I kind of did that role again more under the corporate setting at a larger firm firm that was growing very quickly when I joined. They were really getting Aggressive on M and A. So that was kind of a whole new experience and dynamic that came into the people and culture space of how do we add firms and find firms, integrate firms. It's like a whole nother thing. As you know, private equity came onto the scene so it was much more dynamic experience.

So did that for a couple years.

And then three years ago decided to go out on my own and do my own practice and become a consultant and coach to mostly REA firms. I have a couple clients that are not in the REA business, but it's 90% REA firms and really go back to helping those independent firms that are. I work with firms of all sizes. I'm executive coach for some solo advisors and some small partnerships. But my sweet spot is kind of that 1 to 5 billion firm where they, they need to have a high functioning leadership team. They, you know, are, they have a larger team, you know, of 10 to 30 to 50 people. So they've got to get really organized and you know, good on the people development side and building their team and they're, you know, they're in an active growth mode. So I work with their leadership teams on getting their leadership process really buttoned up. So making sure they have a good strategy in place. They've got clarity on where they're headed and they're very focus and executing really well. So I use a lot of EOS traction with all my clients to do that. And in parallel I'm coaching them as a leadership team on how to work well together. So on their interpersonal dynamics, how to communicate better, how to navigate conflict more skillfully, how to give each other feedback and hold each other accountable. So it's kind of a dual, like there's the process piece to running a good team and being effective and then there's the interpersonal dynamics and we have to pay attention to both of those. And then I'm really helping them with that people strategy. So the firms I work with, it doesn't make sense to probably hire a full time person to do that yet they can generally outsource most of the HR operations piece. They have a good benefits person and a good HR consultant that they can.

Call on for that stuff.

So then I can help them kind of on a fractional basis with their feedback system, their performance management, their job descriptions and expectations and their developing of their people.

Right.

So I then coach, like I said.

A lot of the leaders one on.

One so I can help them as they're navigating those challenges with their people on how to show up as a better leader and you know, keep their team, team members moving forward.

[Michael Kitces]

So, so for those of us who haven't been down this road before, I mean I, I get job descriptions and, and compensation. What is performance management?

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah, I mean it's, I hate the term quite honestly. It's just like I, there's not a, I don't know, there's not an alternative.

That'S out there, but it's, you know.

To me the heart of it, the way I build it with firms is, is first and foremost making sure we're setting really clear expectations for our people. Because I would say 70 if not more percent of the interpersonal breakdowns that.

Happen in the workplace are because of.

Lack of clear expectations. And that just creates a whole mess.

Of drama that we can avoid if we're better at just being clear about expectations. So it's really making sure people are clear on what they need to do to be successful, that they're getting the feedback they need on a continuous basis. So a traditional performance management, like that's like, oh, your annual review, you know, and your quarterly check ins. I really try to work with firms on making sure there's a culture of feedback and that it's happening on a continuous basis so that, you know, you can't develop if you don't know if you're doing the right things or the wrong things. So really helping them communicate well with their people, getting comfortable with feedback, again, nobody likes to give feedback. We all avoid it at. So a lot of that's coaching leaders on getting comfortable with feedback and then creating the structures for the career path so people can see, okay, what's next for me and what does it look like to build a career here? So giving visibility to that is super helpful. So we'll build those career paths out. If we do have a new leader that is up and coming or someone that is kind of on the brink of that next level, I help them really lay out, like what does that look like? Like, let's show them the steps to get there and what the expectations of the new role will be and what gaps do we have and how can we fill that for them and get the training they need? So you know, to me it's when I say performance management, it's really like how do we help our people perform at their best and do their best work?

[Michael Kitces]

So can you share a little bit more just because it sounds like you, you do and live this a lot. Like what, what are typical advisor career paths looking like at this point? Like I know. Are there some common standards or waypoints of how they're getting built, how they're structured, what the levels typically are, what you normally have to do to move up?

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah.

[Michael Kitces]

Share with us some of the best practices.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah, I don't, I don't think they've changed too much.

I think most firms are, you know, very comfortable with knowing that you're going to have two advisors, you know, maybe three working on a relationship, and you should have a couple in the meeting. So I think that team structure is pretty well utilized. So it's, you know, you kind of start with your associate. People have a lot of different titles for that. It can be financial planning associate, an associate advisor, wealth management associate. There's lots of titles, but it's kind of your associate sort of out of college. You're either about to take your CFP exam, you know, within a year or two, or you've already completed that. And so that's, you know, your first, first two to four years of just really learning the business, learning the client relationship, learning the planning. There's a big emphasis on, you know, the financial planning piece. I think in your first kind of five years is really mastering that. And all firms are doing so much more on that end. So you really have to become a technical expert on the various parts of financial planning. And then you know, that's. There's kind of this next level sort of in between where you're starting to take a more lead role with clients. You're becoming more the point of contact. Maybe there's a subset of clients that you're leading more independently, having more speaking roles within meetings and whatnot. And so that. Yep.

[Michael Kitces]

At that point, like, am I. Am I still in this? Is that like a senior associate or is that a new level? Like when I, you know, I start taking some of my own, but I'm also working with someone else's clients.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah. So in practice it would be a senior associate. Again, firms use a lot of different titles. Sometimes they'll just, just that'll be an advisor and then there's a senior advisor, or it could be a senior associate and then there's lead advisor. So, you know, everyone kind of has their different nuances to titles. But I would say in practice, that's kind of a senior advisor, you know, early lead advisor type role. And then your kind of next year, third level, if you will, that's really your most senior advisor that is leading your core client relationships. So they're the, you know, primary person response responsible for that relationship. They Give the, you know, most complex and advice and guidance on the investment side and the financial planning and really, you know, kind of oversee the relationship. So it's, yeah, so it's, you know, it's about, it's kind of three levels I think is the pretty standard thing that we're seeing now that people move through are those kind of three key phases of becoming a lead advisor. And when you're at that third level, that's also where are, you know, you're doing business development now, you're learning how to, you know, one, you're getting referrals from your own clients and you're able to nurture those and close those. And then you're also starting to develop your own channels and ways of getting outside business.

[Michael Kitces]

So how, how long in those worlds does it take to get up to a lead advisor level? You said kind of two to four years as an associate learning the business. Like two to four years and then I'm a lead advisor, like two to four years, then I'm a senior associate and then I've got some more time before I'm typically moving into a full lead, I guess like full autonomous lead position.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah, I mean I think of like that senior advisor role as someone generally with, you know, 10 plus experience, years of experience, but with a lot of, you know, I think that between the five and 10 years there's, you know, a lot of room for variability. Right. So some people step into that role sooner and they're able to take a lead role eight years into being in the career. I used to always coach my younger career advisors on just really focusing on the long game because I love the ambition and there's so much desire and everyone wants to work with clients and be that point person. You know, there's an element to what we do that it's just like you have to have a certain number of at bats. Right. You need to be in a certain number of meetings, you need to see a certain number of different cases with clients and financial planning scenarios and issues that come up. And so, you know, I think that transition between kind of like moving out of that more entry level, you know, that kind of after you're about five years into your career, that kind of next five to 10 years is, is more fluid and you know, can look a little different for everybody.

[Michael Kitces]

But yeah, and, and do you see these paths training as we get into a, like a technology AI driven world? You know, I've, I've seen a number of firms now starting to debate things like there are AI Note takers that do right like that, take great notes and capture the takeaways. And that's basically what I used to have my associate advisors do because it meant they could train and learn because they're in client meetings and they're not. I'm not just paying them to sit there, do nothing. Like I'm paying them to also take good notes, capture the follow ups, make sure the client tasks get done, record for compliance or just like there were benefits to having the person in the room and now maybe I don't need the person because I've got an AI note taker. So do. What do they do? Do they do something different? Are we all going to use AI tools and like blow up our talent pipelines? Yeah, I'm a little nervous about it. How do you like, how do you about this? Because this is, I'm very much seeing this start to show up. At least it's like a, a question, a debate, a conversation in a lot of firms.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah, it's top of mind for me because it's coming up a lot with.

Clients and you know, in conversations in our, you know, in our study groups.

[Michael Kitces]

And not clients, clients making advisors. Who are your clients?

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah, yeah, my clients. Yeah, yeah. Not end client. Yeah, it's this kind of thought of, oh, well, if, you know, if we have AI notetakers and whatnot, maybe we don't need to hire as many associates or we can slow down kind of our hiring trajectory. And, and it's, you know, for me I just feel a ton of caution bells kind of ringing on that because, you know, I think to your point, like, we do not want, you do not want to blow up your talent pipeline like you, you want, you've got.

To create that engine and you have.

To have it steadily growing. And I think that if AI can take notes, that's great because we can get our associates doing more meaningful work sooner. So I would focus more on like, how can we leverage those tools to.

Accelerate and enhance the development of our talent pipeline rather than like, how do we scale back our pipeline?

Because, you know, I mean, I think, you know, our biggest edge is always going to be the personal relationship that we bring to the advisory relationship. You know, we had this scare back in the robo advisor days that didn't pan out because people want to have a relationship with the person that's guiding them on their financial journey. And I think, you know, there's definitely going to be people.

I saw something you posted recently about.

There'S going to be people that will.

Sit down and use AI to be their financial planner. But I still think the majority of people, if not more, are going to want and value the personal connection we bring because we are living in such.

A virtual world now.

So I would not slow down your talent growth. I would continue to hire and I.

Would just put those people to better use as you embrace tools and I would be really careful about not losing.

The first part of your career. That critical thinking is such an important part of your development.

Even client note taking, I think a.

Lot of it can be tedious and.

It'S fine to outsource that, but I.

Think there's also a ton of value into reviewing a client meeting and your advisors, your associates, really learning how to.

Capture what meant the most to my client. What did I really hear in this.

Meeting and how do I want to make sure I factor that into the relationship I create with them and not allowing them to not do some of that critical thinking and just outsourcing that to AI.

Write your own emails. It's really important to learn how to write an email and how to communicate well. You're in a relationship business so you have to learn those skills. So I'd be a little cautious about that as well, to not hinder the development of our next gen talent.

[Michael Kitces]

So I guess in that vein just, I mean, you kind of said like leverage the tools for our talent pipeline instead of scaling it back or like, you know, find other better things for them to do as the tech supports them. So can you just speak to that further?

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah, I mean if they're not spending a lot of hours writing notes, like.

That'S time that they could be sitting in client meetings.

That's times that they could be reaching.

Out and getting client meetings on the calendar proactively. I think, you know, we know that, that clients want more for what we do.

So, you know, spending more time on financial planning, mastering that, you know, just getting more at bats at, you know, if a client has a situation that like the lead advisor would normally do.

Because the associate is bogged down with the note taking and kind of the more administrative stuff, like get them involved in that, you know, like look for ways as a lead advisor, like if there's anything you can delegate because you freed up a pretty substantial chunk of time with note taking, like start delegating those things faster. You know, your people will generally surprise you at what they're capable of and.

Then that frees up your time to be out in front of clients and.

Out in the community and you know, doing more Business development for the team. If you've got, you know, a bunch.

Of support that has some freed up.

Time to, you know, help in those other areas. Areas.

[Michael Kitces]

So what else am I delegating them to them as a lead advisor?

[Katie Kolaghi]

You know, I think if you are able to be out and doing business development, getting them involved in your sales process. Right.

I think everybody struggles with that disciplined.

Process around, follow up with prospects and creating that consistent experience. So helping them keep you organized in that, like giving them ownership of that.

Sales process and seeing that through, you.

Know, getting them to start thinking about what their personal networks are going to be. I think the smartest firms, what they're doing on the BD end is they're allowing some flexibility around. Go out and find the communities that resonate with you. Yes, we kind of know our target market. Yes, there's a lot of good things around creating a niche and whatnot. But when you can get people out in the communities that they resonate with, I think that's a really smart business development angle. So. So getting them out to whether it's prospecting and business development activities or getting them into industry activities, especially in our virtual world, if they can get to more conferences or if they can join a study group, I think those are.

Just immensely valuable opportunities for development.

[Michael Kitces]

And how do firms then combat the fear of. I'm just training them to eventually leave and hang their own shingle.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah, I think if you're a great place to work, people won't leave. I mean, you know, most people don't want to go start their own business. I mean, it's, it's a lot of work. I can tell you. It's not for the faint of heart.

Right? It is not for the faint of heart. So, you know, if you can work.

With a great group of people that you enjoy every day and you've, you've got good earning potential and, you know, good benefits and you like the work you're doing, you're not going to leave. So I think just, you know, focus on being a great place to work. Make sure you're really, truly living your.

Values and that you are investing both from your time and financially in the.

Development of your people of, you know, building their careers of learning how to interact and be humans better together to.

Be a place where, you know, everyone's not only developing professionally, but they're becoming better personal.

I think those are the things that make it pretty hard for people to leave.

[Michael Kitces]

So you articulated some of it. But can you just go a little further of what really makes me a great place to work, that my advisors won't leave because I don't know anybody in the advisor world that says, yeah.

[Katie Kolaghi]

I don't really want to be a.

[Michael Kitces]

Very good place to work. It's going to be crappy around here. We're just going to grind them hard. Right. I mean, I think particularly just we're service businesses. It's a service profession, it's a helping profession. I've never surveyed it, but I'm pretty certain that 80 to 90% of advisory firms would rate themselves as an above average place to work.

[Katie Kolaghi]

For sure.

[Michael Kitces]

Just like our driving habits. So in all seriousness, like what, what really distinguishes the firms that are greater places to work and risk for team turnover.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah. So I can tell you when I'm talking to employees what I hear on the positive side and what I hear on the negative side. So, you know, on the positive side.

The clients that really love where they.

Work, they feel like they're part of a family. You know, they feel like they are valued and seen in the organizations that they're in. They feel like when they have a problem or a system's not working or process isn't working, that they're hurt and that's fixed and it's given attention to. They feel like they get acknowledged and appreciated for the part that they play.

In all the work that we do for clients.

They feel like they're compensated well, they.

Have good benefits, but it's more like the feeling that they have when they.

Walk in the door.

They can approach any of the leaders and they're not intimidated to have those conversations. They're just really treated with a lot of respect. So I think those are the things that when people tell me I just love working here, I never want to leave here.

Those are the things that stand out.

And mean the most to them. The folks that are frustrated by where they work are the ones where, you know, there's high drama. They might work for a manager that's really controlling, doesn't delegate well, is really intimidating in how they talk to their people. You know, maybe condescending, you know, just where it's like, it's scary to have.

Your voice, you know, with the, with the senior person you're working with.

That creates a bad experience. When they're just not getting the at.

Bats and they're not getting the trust.

To take on higher level work. When there's just a process that's way too long and drawn out for that, that's super frustrating. Burnout, you know, I mean, firms that don't hire ahead of time and don't stay proactive on capacity. You know, people are so overwhelmed at work and we don't turn it off. And in our business, we're a service business. And so, you know, I think being really, really mindful of the level of expectations you have and being careful with capacity and building in good capacity. So those are the things that I think people where they start to be like, you know, I don't know if this is the right place for me. You know, I've had some, you know, folks that I've coached where there's kind of an expectation of, you need to be an advisor like me.

Like, you need to talk the way I do.

You need to kind of have the same personality or, you know, know, show up in meetings the way I do. And that's really, really stifling for folks. I think it's super unwise from a leadership standpoint. You know, your best advisors are going.

To be people that are really authentic.

And your clients are going to know that instantly. And, you know, our client bases are really diverse. Some people want, you know, a more technical, outspoken type of personality. Some people want, you know, someone that's more slow and works with them. You know, I mean, all personalities are needed, I think, to work with the type of clients we work with. So being really careful to not just hire clones of yourself, but then also try to create clones of yourself, but really tap into, like, what makes my people unique and giving them an opportunity to bring that forward, you know, that that'll create a lot of stickiness with your people.

[Michael Kitces]

So. So now I take us back just to all the things you do again. I mean, you, you mentioned a little bit earlier around some coaching and consulting, but I guess just for your business as exists today, just for folks who may be curious, can you just walk us through, like, what do you actually do, Katie? You actually do?

[Katie Kolaghi]

What do I actually do? So I would say I serve as.

Both a consultant and a coach to.

Executive teams and individual leaders and like I said, mostly of RAA4 firms. So, you know, I have a range of solo advisors to larger firms with 30 plus employees, but really serving as that kind of executive team consultant and coach to advisory firms in that 1 to 5 billion ish range. You know, I help those teams, the firms and the executive teams get really aligned and clear on their strategy. And I serve as an accountability partner.

And a facilitator to ensure they stay.

Focused and they execute. So that's why I use traction eos. It works really, really well for doing that. But the magic behind traction and eos is the consistency and following the rhythm. And that's very, very hard to do on your own. And so I really help bring that rhythm and consistency to the process so that we can actually see the traction happen and execute. And then in parallel, like I said, when I'm working with leadership teams, I'm also coaching them on how to be an effective team. So, so we're having the hard conversations when we need to. We're learning how to navigate our different personalities and interpersonal dynamics, helping them work through conflict, helping them actually have conflict in the first place, which is actually a really healthy part of a team. Right. So again, being comfortable sharing where we disagree and bringing up issues that are sticky and learning how to handle those in a productive way, helping them all gain more self awareness and emotional intelligence, both individually and as a group.

So that's.

So I'm really braiding like the consulting and the coaching.

So that's really where the coaching comes in.

And like I said, the ultimate goal is just to help these great firms that are like my ideal client is a firm that is very, very focused on people. They see that as a big part of their growth strategy. They love working with people and they want to take care of their people. And so helping them grow the firm in a way that is more, more, you know, has less stress and more ease. Because as much as you love people, working with people is hard.

Like that is the hardest part is.

Humans are going to human, humans are going to humans. So you know, helping them make that journey less, you know, more, more, A lot more ease and less friction.

[Michael Kitces]

And can I ask how, just how you price this, how you price services just so folks can at least get reasonable expectations of what's involved for this kind of like coaching, consulting relationship.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah, so my coach engagements are all very different. So most, so my kind of core clients are generally on a retainer. So we've got kind of a, you know, usually an annual engagement.

Most of my clients have been working.

With for over two years. So we have a monthly retainer based on the amount of support that they need. And then they can really use that retainer. I mean there's certain things we always do. So I'm generally always leading their leadership team meetings, I'm leading their eos code kind of rhythm. So doing annual planning, quarterly rock setting.

And whatnot, and then some one on.

One coaching and then from there it depends on what level of support they need and want for their team. So I Can kind of adjust it up and down for that.

[Michael Kitces]

Can you give us some sense of a range? Just I. For folks who've never hired, Like, I just have no idea. Did you just describe a thing that like is 1 or 2 grand a month or like 10 or 20 grand a month or.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Well, it actually ranges. Yeah. So I have clients that are on $2,000 retainers.

I've had clients on $12,000 retainers a month.

So there is a pretty big range and it is really kind of like.

What level of fractional support do you need given the size of your firm? So yeah, and that kind of depends on firm size and number of employees.

But I have some of my more.

Mid sized clients pay the highest retainers.

Because they want a lot of support.

So yeah, so that's kind of what.

That can look like from a retainer standpoint.

And then I also do one on one coaching. Executive coaching. Coaching, yeah.

Okay, so usually those are usually like booked in six sessions at a time and you know, six to eight. It kind of depends on the client. But then we use those based on what they need. So that can just be a bi weekly or a monthly call. And that's just like your very traditional one on one executive coaching.

[Michael Kitces]

And then how do you, how do you price that?

[Katie Kolaghi]

I think what I notice in my peer coaching world is that, you know, executive coaches are going to, you know, range anywhere from 350 to 550 an hour typically, is kind of what I'm saying saying.

[Michael Kitces]

So as you've gone these routes, just what surprised you the most about like building out all these people and talent functions in advisory businesses over the years? You did it at Whipley, you did it at Savant. You're now doing it on a consulting basis. Like what, what surprised you the most about doing this or what it takes to do it? Well, in advisory firms?

[Katie Kolaghi]

I think, I mean, it's kind of surprising, but also not at the same time. I mean everybody has the same issues, right?

Like this.

It's kind of the same themes are everywhere. I mean, it's funny, when I work with a new client, they'll be like, oh gosh, I'm so embarrassed. Like, you probably think we're crazy or whatever.

I'm like, no, I literally see this with every team I work with.

It's kind of like how you describe that iceberg. Like we all have a bunch of stuff below the surface.

[Michael Kitces]

Everyone thinks they have these unique problems of them having some people issues because it seems like everyone else's advisory firm is growing so, well, and the truth is, like, oh, no, they're having. Having people things as well.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Everyone has people things.

[Michael Kitces]

They just don't post it on LinkedIn and Instagram.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Exactly, totally.

And they all stem from kind of the same things. Our ego, our fears, our lack of clarity and expectations. So I think there's just so much similarity in kind of the people challenges we all face, and everybody is facing them at different levels. And I think, again, I don't know if this surprises me or it just makes sense, but the folks that invest in it and pay attention to it and come to the people side of their business, but also the people stuff, the friction with, you know, lower egos and more vulnerability. Like, those are the best places to work when you have the leaders that are the most vulnerable and lean into that stuff and they're willing to get support with it and they're willing to, you know, learn about their blind spots, and they're committed to coaching and learning. Those are by far the places that people love working the most.

[Michael Kitces]

So what was the low point for you, you on this journey?

[Katie Kolaghi]

You know, I was thinking about this.

I mean, it's kind of the obvious one that you would. That comes to mind is, you know, I eventually ended up relocating out to Wisconsin when I was at Whipley, and five months later got laid off at the start of the pandemic as the market was going down. So that kind of stands out as a low point.

But I have to say, though, I was thinking about this question. I think the split before that, what.

Preceded that was that Roger Hewins and wifli, eventually they ended up splitting the advisory firm away from the accounting firm. And so Whiffly kept its own financial advisory arm, and the Hewins team went back to running their firm independently.

And that process was really. That was really tough because I loved that team. It was really hard to kind of know which way to go.

So to see that team kind of break apart. And then that was a great example of how when you're moving through something difficult, how we can either the human dynamics can be really, really stressful and difficult, or we can make them less so. And so that was probably another low point. I was really bummed to see that team split apart and then not work with some of the folks that I was working with and kind of have to make go through that process.

So I'd say those are probably the two.

[Michael Kitces]

So I'm fascinated that by what happened. We hear a lot about accounting firms acquiring advisory firms to bring wealth in. You don't hear so many and it didn't work out and they split back apart. I don't know. Now at least you get the lens of hindsight. What didn't work?

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah, I mean, I think that the idea of it makes so much sense.

But in practice it's really difficult because the structure of the business is so different.

Right. I mean you just look at how an advisory firm is valued versus an accounting firm. I mean, just at that basic level. Right. I mean there's just like, you know, were fee based, they're more transactional based. So like the business structure is, is different and that's hard. The culture is different certainly as well, you know. So I think again it was, it's like the concept is great, but they're, they're actually two pretty difficult cultures. Like there's not as much synergy as you would expect.

[Michael Kitces]

Which, which I now find interesting. The other direction, because now we're seeing more and more advisory. Yeah, like the trend I feel like in the 2010s was, was accounting firms bringing wealth in. Now the trend is wealth firms bringing accounting or at least tax in house and doing tax prep and starting to wonder if we're going to see the same thing bubble up in the other direction, which is, oh my, my wealth management business has a really different culture and style than this tax business.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah, it'll be interesting. I mean, I think that way has a better success likelihood because our margins are so much better. So we have a little bit more room to, to experiment and invest in certain things. I think there's a lot of CPAs.

When I was working at WIFLI that.

Became financial planners and they make great planners.

That can be a really, really powerful combination. I think the biggest thing is the shortage of talent.

There is a shortage of talent on the accounting side. It is really hard to get CPAs. And so I know advisory firms are.

Really nervous about how to even keep up with tax work, whether it's external or internal.

[Michael Kitces]

Yeah. I do find there's an irony I've seen for a lot of firms it's so hard to find good CPAs to refer too. We're just going to bring the tax prep in house and do it instead. It's like, where are you going to find where you. Like, where are you going to find the good CPAs to hire? Like, if you can't find people to refer out to, where are you going to find them to hire? You know, if your business doubles in the next five years, like, where are you going to find enough tax Preparers who are at that quality level.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah.

[Michael Kitces]

To double your tax business. So we'll see summer training EA at least Easternly, you don't necessarily go out for CPA if your focus is tax returns and not testing audits and such. But right there, just, there is an irony to me of like, yeah, there's a talent shortage to refer to ourselves. I'm like, it's the same talent problem. Like you're.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael Kitces]

Still going to have to navigate it for better.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Totally. And now you have to be an expert in hiring a different, you know, field.

So.

Yeah. Yep.

[Michael Kitces]

So what else like do you know now you wish you could go back and tell you from 10, 15 years ago about just the dynamics of the talent and people function in advisory firms. What do you know now that you wish you go back and tell you from the past?

[Katie Kolaghi]

Well, I think.

Getting support. Well, so I was thinking about this.

Personally, but then in terms of how to translate that for firms. So I would have gone back and told my younger self to get, get a lot more support early on.

So, you know, I, I'm the breadwinner for my family and you know, I'm.

A mom, I've got three kids.

And so I would say especially for women, you know, getting more support early on personally, because.

[Michael Kitces]

What does that mean?

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah, so, so like, you know, honestly.

Working into our family budget, you know.

A personal assistant, a personal trainer, like whatever it is, because as women, you know, hopefully you've heard and more people.

Are talking about it, but there' really.

Big invisible load, mental load that we're.

Carrying kind of running our households and running our jobs and you know, it's part learning how to do that better in partnership at home, but it's also getting more support.

And so I think in the workplace, I think that's something that also from a people development standpoint needs to be talked about more and understood more. I think male colleagues need to understand that better in terms of, you know, just the load that women are carrying, it is different.

You know, as moms, when you have.

Children at home, there's just a mental.

Load that, that women carry more than men. And so I think workplaces need to be very attuned to that. I think they're getting better about that.

I think also men in the workplace are seeing that at home with their wives and so we need to be very aware of that too and giving them support to be better partners to.

Help their wives with the, the mental.

And physical load that they're carrying.

So I think just understanding the Lifestyle needs and, and being a lot more open minded about that and not worrying.

So much about, okay, are people putting in the right amount of hours?

Do we have too much vacation?

Do we have too much flexibility?

Like, you know, if you just, if.

You have good people and again, you're creating a great place to work, you know, helping them also manage their lives outside of work is really important.

So I'd say that's one thing that.

I'd go back and probably think about because you know, I'm enough of a Gen Xer where I kind of came out of that generation of like, like it's a, you know, you have to be grinding and you have to be working so hard and you know, it's that head down butts and seats kind of thing and, and you know, just.

[Michael Kitces]

Just be your own autonomous, independent self and figure it out. Ever since you had to let yourself into the house alone at Right, right.

[Katie Kolaghi]

School and I just, I don't think that's going to be sustainable. I, I, you know, people are burning out too much and, and firms have.

Got to really pay attention to that.

[Michael Kitces]

So what advice would you give younger, newer advisors, like looking new, become, become a planner today and like want to, want to navigate this path well, yeah.

[Katie Kolaghi]

So you know, I'd say, like I said earlier, like, focus on that long game. Don't get too caught up in what's happening kind of year to year. But know that like this is such a great career long term, it's, it's a great lifestyle career. It's, you get to do great work for clients, you get to work with great people. It's lucrative, all the above. So you know, focus on that long game. But I also tell younger folks like really take ownership of your development. So of course I've talked this whole podcast about what leaders and firms need to do to develop their people.

But there's another big part of that.

Equation which is for individuals to really own their development.

And so by that I mean if you're not clear on expectations, be proactive with those conversations. Help your managers lead you right. So go to them and ask for regular feedback. Knowing that it's hard to give feedback. I tell my younger advisors, a lot.

Goes unrecognized, very little goes unnoticed. People just aren't great at giving feedback. So ask regularly. What am I doing well that you want me to do more of and what impact is that having? What do I need to do less of or do differently?

Really soliciting that feedback and looking to find study groups to get involved in and looking for mentors and reaching out to them and, you know, and those things.

So just, so just really taking ownership of your development and learning how to ask the right questions and get the guidance you need if you're not getting it. I see too many people that are like, oh, you know, they're not talking to me about my career path or.

They'Re not giving me this or doing.

This, and I'm like, well, go ask them. You know, you can ask the question and that can be a huge advantage for you.

[Michael Kitces]

So as we come to the end, this is a podcast about success. And just one of the themes that comes up, right, that that word success means very different things to different people. So, you know, you've had this wonderful path of like, building people and talent at multiple very large organizations now, now doing it on. On your own as a consultant. And so the. The business seems to be in a wonderful place now. How do you define success for yourself at this point?

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah, for me, it's first and foremost being healthy, you know, staying very healthy. My family is thriving and that I'm doing work where I'm really playing to.

My strengths and I'm being authentic. You know, I think as you're developing your career, you spend a lot of time trying to be a lot of different things to a lot of people. And I have found that, you know, just showing up as myself and playing to my strengths is when I do.

My best work and I feel the most rewarded.

So, yeah, healthy, healthy body, healthy, thriving family, and, you know, doing the work I'm best at with the people I love working with.

[Michael Kitces]

Very good. Cool. I love it.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah.

[Michael Kitces]

Thank you so much, Katie, for joining us on the Financial Advisor Success conference.

[Katie Kolaghi]

Yeah, thanks for having me, Michael. This is a. I mean, great discussion and such an important topic. So glad to be here.

[Michael Kitces]

Thank you.

Want even more ideas, tools and resources on how to break through to the next level of success as a financial advisor? Check out the leading financial planning industry blog, Nerd's Eye. View [e-mail], where Michael covers the latest practice management trends and financial planning strategies. And by joining the members section, you can earn IMCA and CFP continuing education credits along with exclusive member content. Get it all now at www.kitsis.com.