Dominated By Immaturity

Summary

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Financial Audit with Caleb Hammer

Episode: Dominated By Immaturity (October 13, 2023)

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Main Theme

This episode features Medea, a 32-year-old Austin resident, as she undergoes a rigorous financial audit with host Caleb Hammer. The discussion dives deep into how financial immaturity, denial, lifestyle choices, and repeated justifications have led Medea into a cycle of credit card debt, minimal savings, and a precarious reliance on her partner. Caleb, known for his no-nonsense, direct coaching style, pushes Medea to confront hard truths about her spending habits, chronic financial mismanagement, and avoidance of responsibility.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Medea’s Employment & Income (00:00–04:55)

• Medea is between jobs, having just accepted a new customer service (advisor technician) role in tech paying $23/hr, 40 hours/week, biweekly pay—approximately $3,986/month before taxes.
• Her previous role was better paying but extremely stressful with unreasonable hours, leading to burnout and eventual resignation.
• Medea admits her new role pays less than her previous job, but finding work was challenging due to being "overqualified."

Quote:
"I was having breakdowns. I was just not happy. I was being berated because ... I was salary ... doing 60 hours. You're asking me to do more. ... Like, I'm prioritizing me."
— Medea (02:06)

Financial Hardship, Divorce & Debt’s Origins (05:10–06:40)

• Medea’s financial woes began after separating from her ex-husband seven years ago. She survived initially by maxing out credit cards and living with little to no savings.
• She still isn’t divorced, admitting paperwork is incomplete due to procrastination.
• Financial survival entailed buying essentials and furnishing an apartment with debt.

Quote:
“I didn't have savings, I didn't work very much, and I suddenly had to be on my own … I was like, okay, I'm gonna live on my credit cards. I have great credit. Like, I can do this for a month. And a month turned into 2, 3, 4...”
— Medea (05:39)

Snowballing Debt & Questionable Spending (07:01–15:36)

• Despite claiming to pay only for necessities, Medea’s credit card statements show frequent dining out, coffee shop visits, online food delivery, clothing, and non-urgent expenses.
• Hammer repeatedly challenges her self-perception and calls out her rationalizations, contrasting claimed hardship with discretionary spending.
• Multiple cards carry balances going up, not down, due to making purchases exceeding minimum payments.

Quote:
"You say you can't make a minimum payment off. Yes, you can. Yes, you can. Just the Taco Bell itself ... Boom. Minimum monthly payment was made. You chose ... all that other stuff. Over minimum monthly payments."
— Caleb Hammer (29:59)

Chronic Avoidance & Lack of Responsibility (12:30–31:17)

• Medea demonstrates a pattern of denial and deflection, using phrases like “I’m doing my best” and “it doesn’t happen that often” to excuse missed payments and repeated unnecessary spending.
• Caleb forcefully insists that progress requires true ownership of past and present choices.

Quote:
“You are not doing your best. Your best is not this. ... Your future matters more than you want it to right now.”
— Caleb Hammer (31:17)

Partner Dynamics & Enabling Behavior (32:40–33:23)

• Medea’s partner covers all living expenses, enabling her to (theoretically) focus on paying down debt.
• Caleb warns that if the relationship ended, Medea would have no safety net, emphasizing her dependency is risky.

Quote:
“He’s enabling your bad behavior. He’s saying what you’re doing is okay. It's not.”
— Caleb Hammer (33:00)

Justifications, Mental Health & Motivation (33:23–36:01)

• Medea admits birthday spending and other justifications override her discipline, and she views paying debt as the only purpose of working, which hinders her commitment to change.
• Caleb reframes the situation, arguing that sacrificing now means freedom later, not endless repayment.

Quote:
"You're extending this situation for years and years to come. You're preventing yourself from getting out of it."
— Caleb Hammer (34:29)

Full Debt Picture & Consolidation Loan (36:35–40:39)

• Medea totals about $46,830 in debt (credit cards, car loan, and a high-interest personal loan).
• She previously consolidated 12 credit cards into an $18,000 personal loan at 32% interest but continued to accumulate new debt, leaving many accounts open "for credit score" reasons.

Quote:
“Your credit's not benefiting you. This is a tool against your own destruction, not a tool for your own success.”
— Caleb Hammer (39:05)

Lifestyle, Health Limitations & Employment Choices (22:39–25:16)

• Medea’s health: Dominant arm injured from a scooter accident and arthritis hampers her ability to take most service jobs with better tips.
• Caleb presses for maximizing earning given these constraints, suggesting she look for any jobs that work around her physical issues.
• Despite limitations, Medea expresses resistance to working multiple jobs due to burnout concerns.

Budget Planning & Path Forward (41:08–49:43)

• Medea pays no rent or utilities, with minimal living expenses.
• Hammer calculates she could throw about $1,000/month at debt aggressively, more if she picked up extra work.
• He prescribes a “snowball” debt payoff plan: start with smallest debts to gain momentum with eliminated minimums, emphasizing temporary sacrifice for permanent gain.

Quote:
“If you go work the extra job … you could finish this in a year and a half to two years.”
— Caleb Hammer (46:14)

Hammer’s Assessment & Closing Thoughts (50:30–end)

• Caleb delivers a tough-love wrap-up, scoring Medea’s financial health at essentially zero across spending, emergency fund, and retirement readiness.
• He urges her to finally accept personal accountability, sacrifice, and consistent effort to escape the debt spiral. Medea acknowledges the conversation's impact and understands the cumulative effect of small, frequent discretionary purchases.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Caleb (on missed payments and denials):
  “Don't lie to me. If we do it at all, dude, that's all it is... We're never choosing Starbucks and Uber Eats over making a minimum payment.”

• Medea (on justifying birthday spending):
  “I don't think that it's worth living to just pay a credit card. I should be able to do a little stuff here and there.” (34:18)

• Caleb (on mindset and the future):
  “That's a toxic mindset… I want you to attack it now, make sacrifices now, so by the time you're 35, 34... you never have to pay a credit card again.” (34:29)

• Caleb (on dependency):
  “The other person at the end of this leash... They have so much power right now in terms of your life.” (42:57)

• Medea (on recognizing poor habits):
  “Like you said, it doesn't feel like I'm doing a lot because it's here and there... But yeah, I see how it adds up.” (50:30)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–04:55 | Medea's job change, salary calculation, exit from toxic work
• 05:10–06:40 | Divorce, origins of debt, financial survival post-marriage
• 07:01–15:36 | Deep dive into credit card statements & habits
• 22:39–25:16 | Waitressing job, physical limitations, employment choices
• 32:40–33:23 | Relationship dynamic, partner's enabling
• 33:23–36:01 | Birthday month spending & mental hurdles
• 36:35–40:39 | True debt total, consolidation loan, open credit cards
• 41:08–49:43 | Hammer's plan: snowball method, budgeting, emergency fund
• 50:30–End | Final thoughts, summary, Hammer's financial score

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Summary Takeaways

• Denial and Rationalization: Medea's biggest obstacle is not just financial but psychological—continually deferring responsibility, justifying irregular and unnecessary spending, and minimizing the severity of her situation.
• Debt, Not Living Expenses, are the Main Burden: Her partner’s support means her cash inflows should cover debt—but she continues to spend on non-essentials.
• Path Forward Requires Sacrifice: Both Caleb and Medea agree: it will take extreme discipline, possible side work, and cutting out discretionary purchases to get her out of debt within a reasonable timeframe.
• Accountability is Non-Negotiable: Caleb’s uncompromising approach highlights that radical honesty and sacrifice, not comfort and rationalization, are required for financial turnaround.
• The Real Impact of Small Purchases: Seemingly minor, frequent indulgences have kept Medea trapped in debt—awareness and conscious budgeting are vital.

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Hammer Financial Score:

• Spending/Budget: 0/10
• Debt Management: 0/10
• Emergency Fund: 0/10
• Retirement: 1/10
• Real Estate: 0/10

"It's going to be a tough path forward. I really hope she listens. I hope she accepts responsibility and sacrifices. That's what's needed right now."
— Caleb Hammer (End)

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For viewers, this episode serves as a raw, instructive example of how unchecked financial immaturity can snowball, but also how confronting the truth—and adopting radical discipline—can begin the path to financial health.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, my name is Medea. I'm located in Austin, Texas. I'm 32 years old and this is Financial Audit.

[B]

What do you do here in Austin for a living?

[A]

Right now I'm in between jobs. I just accepted an offer with a technology company.

[B]

That's incredible. That's awesome. What's this new job?

[A]

It's customer service. So I think that the official title is like Advisor technician.

[B]

Oh, okay. What's the PNUK pay gonna be?

[A]

23 an hour.

[B]

23 an hour. How many hours a week are you going to work?

[A]

40.

[B]

How much time do you take off on normal? Like how many weeks do you take off a year?

[A]

I take every PTO day that I get, so I think so.

[B]

Okay. Paid time. Okay, so 32 or 23. 23 times 40 times 52 divided by 12 giving average of about 39 or 39. $3,986 a month on average. Because some months are going to be longer, some months are going to be a little short. When it comes to the pay period, is it bi weekly or semi monthly?

[A]

Bi weekly.

[B]

Okay, so does that sound about right before taxes? Have you looked at.

[A]

Sounds a little high.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. I mean with this, that, I mean that's with taking pto, but in terms of like actually like do you have to accrue the pto? Well, I guess that doesn't matter. That's before taxes though. So that's not what hits your account. But that's 52 weeks of 40 hours a week at that wage.

[A]

Yeah. I mean my last job I made quite a bit more and that seems more than what I made in my last job. So that's why I think.

[B]

Okay, well, it's 23 maybe ambitious with the 52, 40 times, let's call it instead of 52, 49, $45,000 a year.

[A]

That sounds.

[B]

You're making less than your last job.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Why?

[A]

I have had the hardest time finding a job. I get interviews. I've been told that I have too much experience for what I'm applying for and so I'm not going to get that job. People aren't hiring.

[B]

Why'd you leave this last job?

[A]

I wasn't happy. I was super miserable. There was expectations to work six days a week from 6am to 9pm Customer service? No, no, no. I was a team leader, so it was extremely stressful. I was having breakdowns. I was just not happy. I was being berated because I was like, hey, I'm salary, I'm supposed to be 40 hours a week. I'm doing 60. Right. And you're asking me to do more. It's like I'm gonna start clocking out at 40 hours, and that's it. Like, I'm prioritizing me. I'm not gonna dilute my pay. And they just. They weren't happy with that. So I got put on a performance improvement plan and.

[B]

Oh, that's not very good sign.

[A]

Once that started, it was just downhill from there. It didn't matter if I met or exceeded the performance improvement plan. I got put on a different one for something else. And it was just like, you know what? The money ain't worth it.

[B]

I just noticed this, and this is just pure curiosity. What is that around your neck?

[A]

This is my collar. So I'm part of the BDSM lifestyle.

[B]

Like a dog collar thing?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, I didn't know we were. Okay. I didn't know we were getting into that. Okay. I was just curious. Oh, so you wear that everywhere?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I wore this at my last job. I don't wear it.

[B]

It's your last job?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't kink. Shame. I'm just, like, beyond curious. I'm just, like, shocked.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, in general, no one really says anything. I did have one co worker who brought it up and was like, hey, what's that? And it was like, I know you know, that's why you're asking. And they were like, okay, we'll leave it at that.

[B]

Thought maybe. But I wasn't 100% sure, so I had to ask out of curiosity. Okay. Okay. Interesting. $3,000 a month post taxes is what I think is going to be coming in on average. Ish. That's hard to say. Plus contributions and stuff like that. So you quit when you quit, did you have any. How long ago did you quit?

[A]

I quit in March.

[B]

That's a long time without a job.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Why this pile of just debts are just extreme and chaos and death.

[A]

Not really. So I had enough savings to cover about two and a half, so I did that. I was like, I'm gonna take a break. I didn't think I would have such a hard time finding a job. I did have a hard time finding a job site, especially in tech, which.

[B]

Is where you went from and where you went to. I mean, especially towards the beginning of the year, it was quite rough in terms of the layoffs.

[A]

It was. Yeah, it was intense. I did a few interviews with some cool places, and again, just over experienced or would have required a move to a more expensive area and I was.

[B]

Like, austin's an expensive area.

[A]

I mean, California is way more expensive.

[B]

It is, but would the pay have compensated for that?

[A]

No, it would have been like maybe 5,000 more than my previous job. And then the added increase of $5,000 a month in rent.

[B]

It's been more than two and a half months. How have you been surviving?

[A]

Yeah, I took up a job as a waitress while I was waiting to. Yeah.

[B]

So, okay, then what's this pile? Cause I thought that would explain this pile. What's this pile? This pile. Just like we've just been around forever or something.

[A]

No. So about seven years ago, I got split from my ex husband.

[B]

I'm 25.

[A]

Divorce. Yeah, I'm still. Still dealing with the divorce. It's amicable. I'm just. I've been slow. I haven't done it.

[B]

Wait, the divorce hasn't happened?

[A]

No, I have all the paperwork filed, and I'm supposed to do the final decree, and I just. I haven't done it, so.

[B]

See, the one with the leash? Can't let go of the leash. Okay.

[A]

No, that's my current partner. No. So when we split, I mean, I didn't have savings, I didn't work very much, and I suddenly had to be on my own. I couldn't go home. I didn't have anywhere to go. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna live on my credit cards. I have great credit. Like, I can do this for a month. And a month turned into 2, 3, 4, and it was just like, I had to furnish an apartment. Right. I didn't have a bed. I laid on the floor for two months. It was just me and my cat on the floor. Didn't have a tv, didn't have a bed.

[B]

When I first moved here, I slept on the floor for seven months until I could afford it.

[A]

Yeah. And so that's what I did. But, I mean, I had to eat. I had to buy groceries, and I was buying cup noodle, and I was, you know, I had to pay car insurance because my job at the time was delivery driver.

[B]

No, that sounds a lot of debt for, like, cup of noodles.

[A]

It is.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

It is.

[B]

It sounds like we were living it up a little. I mean, come on.

[A]

Nope, I had to pay car insurance. I had to pay for just car insurance.

[B]

Okay, well, how long did it last then?

[A]

It was about two years before I was on my feet.

[B]

I get the emotional trauma that can come from a divorce, but that's. Oh, you were just extending your pain, financially speaking, because now you're dealing with it because when we've gone through this, the amount of interest that is being stolen from you a year at $23 an hour is like.

[A]

Yeah, no, I think about bankruptcy all the time because it's, I mean, I live to pay the debt.

[B]

Yeah, but at the same time you also around with it. I mean, you're not paying it off as aggressively as you can.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, right now I just don't have the money to make more than the minimum payment with what I'm making as a waitress. But even before, I mean, I was paying rent, I was paying car insurance, I was paying food. And then at the end of the month, I'd have maybe 800 left over.

[B]

Man. I'm going to call you on a little bit of your bull, to be honest, which is, it's okay. It's sometimes good to get a wake up call, but I mean. Okay, so bank of America, let's go through these. And I don't think I have to call you on your when it comes to this one. Or maybe I do. Let's see. So $68 of interest stolen from you in $2,944. So it's currently owed on it. Again, even that alone I would be like at the, the dollar wage we're at like, you know, become struggle at a $97 minimum monthly payment. These minimum payments are about to stack up and they're about to get heavy and they're about to get painful and they're about to get death. So we made a $91 payment. Lovely. But we went and purchased $215. What do we do? Oh, we don't have the money to make minimum monthly payments. Okay, lovely. So we're gonna get Fruity Rudy, we're gonna get a Starbucks, we're gonna get some Mango, Mango Nadas. We're going to get some Southside Pizza and we're going to get some Starbucks. So I immediately have to push back and call you on your bull.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I, the way I see it, 215 wasn't going to make a drop in the bucket. And all I do is pay bill.

[B]

Drop in the bucket. What about the buckets overflowing? The bucket's drowning you. This is like, okay, let's take a sip out of it every month. At least that counts for something instead of just letting it waterboard us. I mean, this is okay. I get the relative sentiment. But if we're making a $91 minimum monthly payment, which is the minimum monthly payment at that time you're doubling. You're more than doubling what you paid towards it for more than doubling. That's not about dropping buckets. That's about you just making your situation worse and extending the process. You took the balance from 2751 to 2944?

[A]

Yep.

[B]

People always ask me, what high yield savings account do I use for my own money. Some of you know by now it's sofi. I love them. It's great for my checking account needs. It's great for my high yield savings account needs. And right Now I'm getting 4.5% interest on my monies. I love that rate on my monies. So if you want to get a great rate like that on your monies, just check out the link in the description below. I have a paid affiliate link there. You can get bonuses all the way up to $250. And I took advantage of that, and you should, too. What? Yeah.

[A]

I mean, that's that's five charges over a month, and that's the only five things that I get to do.

[B]

No, it's not, because we're gonna go through the rest of statements. No, it's not. No, it's not. I mean, again, you youu said you didn't have the money to put towards minimum payment in general, and then I immediately have to call out and say, okay, but here's these purchases. And now I'm gonna have to call out again, call you on the bull. And I'm sorry, I'm gonna be rough because I don't allow lies to be given at the table. But no, those aren't the five purchases you've allowed. And we're gonna go through and prove that. Fees this year so far, missed payments Maybe, I don't know, $68.74, $419 stolen from you. Stolen aggressively taken from your life and interest this year so far. Okay, so here's Target. Target doesn't have any purchases. We have a current balance of $1,402.51. We made a minimum payment of $48. $33 is being sucked from us, stolen from us, burned from our wallets on a monthly basis. So really, even though you made a $48 payment, only $14 was actually taken from the balance on this. $302 have been taken from you this year so far. 28.15% interest on that money is accrued now on Walmart, we have a $28 purchase that was made on this Walmart card, even though we made a $28 payment. Now, this one's not at a crazy balance. This is at $85. I don't even know if that exists anymore today. But even still, with the purchases we're allowing in, the balance we're holding, Even if minimal $1.82 of interest was taken from you this month. So, I mean, we're clearly demonstrating you're not a credit card person. I don't know if you've heard that term before or not, but it just means you cannot actively use credit cards. You've demonstrated that you're the majority of the people. You're just like the majority of Americans, which is fine. That's fine. You don't need to use credit cards. Who cares? It's not a status. You would be better off without credit cards. You're a debit card or cash person. Use the money that exists there and nothing more. Because what happens is we just even hold balances on a card like this where you could have easily paid it off. Actually, in fact, I'm curious why, why is this not paid off? Why are we losing interest on this?

[A]

Yeah, right now, like I said, as a waitress, I don't make enough to pay it off. So I went and bought some pairs of jeans and then I bought stuff that I needed for work, like the non slip shoes and, and Starbucks and.

[B]

Eating out and a bunch of other bullshit. So again, I like. The reason I have to beat you up a little right now is because we're not going to get anywhere if you're, if you don't accept that. If you're not accepting that we're around still, it's like we're just not going to make any progress. Do you agree we're around?

[A]

I mean, I guess so. Yeah. I'm. I don't feel great when I go to Starbucks. Right? Like I could make coffee at home, save some money.

[B]

I'm not saying it like that. I'm saying like you just have to accept that it's existing, dude. And then we went and purchased from Walmart. Walmart's impossible to exactly know what it could be. It could be close, it could be you, it could be groceries, it could be anything. Walmart's hard without me saying 19,000 interest has been stolen from you this year so far. 28 hours of fees. Now we have Capital One, Capital One Platinum, $386. Previous balance, $25 payment, which was the minimum payment made good. I'm glad you're at least making that. No purchases. Fantastic. $8.27 of interest accrued, bringing the new balance to $351.27. $25 of fees this year is charged so far, and $84.88 of interest. And this is at 28.99%. So 29%, basically 30% now here on a mileage plus United. By the way, you've opened every credit card that has ever, like, entered your life, haven't you?

[A]

No, I. I mean, at one point, I was doing it to get up to a certain credit score. I thought I was gonna buy a house. And after that, I just. I stopped.

[B]

Have you met. You haven't been opening credit cards since then?

[A]

I've had all of these.

[B]

So in order to build your credit, you open, like, 50,000 credit cards.

[A]

It was over three years.

[B]

It's a lot of credit cards you open for just three years. You've opened more credit cards in three years than I've opened in my entire life. To be clear, we have a balance on here. 4776 and 70 cents. $10 of purchases, $165 payment made, which is the minimum monthly payment. 164. $116.61 of interest stolen from you. What did we do? Oh. Oh. Because we need it and we have no other money to spend. And those are just the only five purchases that I made my entire life that I allowed myself to do. No, we're getting doordash. We have doordash. We have a doordash subscription, giving us access to spend even more money on DoorDash. $1,000.39. No, $1,039.21 has been stolen from you. And interested this year so far. $124 of fees this year so far at essentially 29 interest. So again, that's not bull. That's not bull. We're having doorpress premium. Come on. Come on.

[A]

So to be fair, that came included with the card as a feature for the first year, and I just haven't canceled it. But I don't use it to be fair.

[B]

Cancel it. City custom cash. We have $2877.32. Our current bounce with a $104 minimum payment. That's very difficult on the waitress opposition. Actually, a lot of waitresses in Austin. I've met waitresses in Austin who, like, make almost six figures. But I assume this is not the position you're in.

[A]

Definitely not.

[B]

No purchases here. Good. $96 payment, which is the minimum monthly payment at the time. Interest of $75 stolen from you. Oh, they're just adding up, let me tell you. Adding up. Oh, $29 of fees and $464 of interest occurred this year so far at essentially 30% interest rate. Amex every day. Okay. With a balance of $1,327.29, $41 minimum monthly payment. Again, these are just bullying you into the ground. $28.22 of interest accrued. 29 of fees. You're getting fees on everything. $253 of interest stolen from you on this car. So we're definitely thousands in the drain this year. We didn't even have a job for a while. Carmax, what is the car that you have?

[A]

I have a 2016. Smart.

[B]

Smart.

[A]

They're the little, like, clown cars. They're tiny.

[B]

Okay. Is it electric?

[A]

No.

[B]

Oh, okay. What. Who's the maker of the car?

[A]

So they're like an offshoot of what's the Mercedes? They don't have a presence in the states anymore. They stopped in 2018.

[B]

Does that mean the value of this car has gone up sometimes it could do that.

[A]

No, not really.

[B]

No supply. Oh, that could be interesting. But okay. $8,722.16 owed on this minimum payment of. Oh, this smells long term. You got a long term on this, didn't you?

[A]

I have a five year and I think I'm into it.

[B]

No, still much longer than the three years, which would be max, but 236.69 minimum payment. 10.95 interest. So essentially 11, 5, 11 interest on this Daily Finance charge. $2 and 60 cents a day stolen from you a day now Costco, and hopefully they're better. I can't audit the purchase. I don't know. You never know. I'm sure some of it was good things, but was everything I don't know from this conversation and I wouldn't be able to trust anyway. So $2,226.15 of is the current balance with a $39 interest stolen from you. $261 of purchases made. Even though we made payments of 54 and then credit to 70. So our balance went up from 2000 to 2226, the $61 minimum payment. So again, we're. Our balance is going up. It's not the first card where that has happened yet. And this was just. It was a single Costco purchase, but again, we don't know what it went towards. And our rewards balance this year so far? $7.86. $7.86 of rewards that's the reward you've gotten from using this card when we've lost $40 this month in interest. So you're not a credit card person? Never use a credit card. If you're going to use a card, use the fizz card. It's in my resources, dude. But that's, like, the one thing I would use because at least it pays it off immediately. It's like a debit card, but $20, 20.49% interest. So low interest compared to the rest of your cards, but it's still death Free Spirit. I've never even heard of this. What even is this?

[A]

It's the airline.

[B]

It's a spirit airline card. Jeez. First one I've seen with that. So $3136.97 with $70 of purchases. $117.80 minimum monthly payment. Again, balance went up. Not the first time we saw that. Hopefully it's the last time. I know we've gone through a lot of cards. 726 hours of interest loan from you this far with $29 of fees. Oh, this one pops up a lot. You get massages every second of your life, by the way.

[A]

Nope. I've been fighting that charge for the last four or five months.

[B]

Just this charge?

[A]

Yeah, that's it.

[B]

What about all the ones we're gonna go through on the ch, which is Massage, massage, massage, massage, massage.

[A]

Free spirit. That. That one is specifically massage envy. That's 70 bucks a month.

[B]

Have you been fighting for that long? Usually credit cards are pretty darn responsive.

[A]

Because I have to go. I have to give them in writing. I give it to them in writing. They tell me they don't get it. Then I'm like, okay, hey, you know, I've been trying to keep.

[B]

You reported it as, like, fraud.

[A]

No, no, this is through Massage Envy. They don't let you terminate the contract unless it's in writing. They conveniently lose the writing all the time. And they accidentally cc'd me with all the other people trying to cancel and gave away all our info to each other.

[B]

What the even is this?

[A]

Yeah, I don't go.

[B]

Massage envy. Jeez. 33% interest. Oh. Even without the purchases, the balance on this is still insane. With an interest rate. That's crazy. 33.24% interest. That's crazy. Oh, Massage envy. Okay. I mean, but you did attempt to cancel before that charge. Then report that to the credit card. Report that to the credit card. Let them know that, hey, I attempted to cancel everything. And see. See what they do because it's their money, so they'll. They'll actually fight. Amazon card. I love the Amazon card. I don't know if I'd want it for you because that gives more excuses to spend on Amazon. Did we make any purchases? I don't think we made any purchases. So good. $979.75 of not interest. That's the balance. That'd be a crazy monthly interest. Monthly interest. $24. And then $40 of fees. $40 of payments. $974 is your minimum monthly payment. Fees. So late fee. Did you know that?

[A]

Nope.

[B]

You didn't even know that?

[A]

I just.

[B]

You don't have it on auto?

[A]

No, I don't have anything on auto.

[B]

Yeah, I might not in your situation either. Let's talk about this waitress job for just a brief second. Brief interjection of going through your debt. What have you been making on average in this waitressing job?

[A]

I make about 120 a day, and I work five days a week.

[B]

How many hours a day?

[A]

That's like 600.

[B]

How long have you been doing this?

[A]

I started that in July, like the.

[B]

Middle of July at one of those classic places that serves pancakes. Okay, so there's a lot of places in the food industry that you could have made a lot more money this entire time. Why? If we know we're not making it and we're not making the money, why did you just accept that position instead of, like, okay, let's go make more money at Jimmy John's even.

[A]

Yeah, it was an immediate hire when I was. I had, like, five days till my next payment started coming through with no money in my account. So it's like, hey, I need cash now. And they're hiring two.

[B]

No, that's fine. I'm glad you got the job. Why didn't we realize, okay, we're obviously not making ends meet. Let's get a better job in the service industry. Because the service industry, yes, Tech, has taken a step back, and they've done lots of layoffs, especially earlier in the year and late last year. Service, at least in the. I. And I know Austin. I know Austin very well. Every place still has desperate to hire. We'll give you the monies. Is it an overnight thing? Obviously not. You know, resumes and applications and interviews. That's all on the individual. But I know you could at least gotten the foot in the door if you at least attempted. Why do we not do that?

[A]

Yeah, this is a lot easier on my body. A lot of the other jobs I was going to have to carry trays. I can't carry a tray. I carry one or two plates at a time. It was going to be a lot longer hours. Right now I think I do six to eight hours a day on average.

[B]

Yeah, but about six to eight hours a day. Like whataburger or something, though. They're always hiring.

[A]

Yeah, but that would actually be less than what I'm making right now.

[B]

How much are you making a day?

[A]

You said about 120.

[B]

It would have been about the same. Just about the same. Okay, so I don't want you to push your body to a point of pain. What's going on there?

[A]

So last year I fell off a lime scooter downtown, and I obliterated my dominant arm. And it's just. I can't pick up things anymore. I can't hold much weight. I can't hold my own body weight. I drop things all the time. So it's been. It's been life changing.

[B]

I'm sorry that's hard. But you can stay standing quite often?

[A]

Somewhat. I have arthritis in my hips, and so the. Just the walking alone at this pancake place is. It's pretty bad. I hobble like a grandma after work.

[B]

Okay, so customer service is obviously good. We're sitting down. Yeah. I mean, I would have just attempted as much as we can just because we know we're scraping by. Well, are you collecting any kind of disability of any kind? Have you attempted to.

[A]

Nope. You can't collect disability if you're married.

[B]

You're married.

[A]

I'm still legally married.

[B]

Yeah, you're still legally married. That's true. Well, I. I personally don't know that. I mean, I can't educatedly speak on that, so I'm not gonna speak on it, but okay. It's interesting. Oh, and by the way, don't forget to subscribe. We're trying to get to a million subscribers. That's awesome. Thank you to everyone who has gotten us here so far. Love you all so much. You guys have any kids? Do you have any kids?

[A]

No, I don't want kids.

[B]

Okay. Again, I would rather you stand over the fries at Waterburger for 10 hours a day. You know, and you would have made it more money and you wouldn't have been walking back and forth. Wouldn't. I mean, sure, there would have been some weight there, but it would have been as crazy as, like, we're potentially making things out to be, like, carrying a bunch of drinks or anything, like, at a waitress job. I'm just Saying, I think we could have looked for options. And I wish I had. I wish. I wish we started this conversation then, because I could have at least coached you through that and, like, encouraged you along the way. But you already have a job now, a new job. I'm happy. Which is obviously gonna make more money. So this is like payments and then deciding to purchase the bull checking account, $131. It's a very scary balance, which, you know, goes with what we've talked about so far. $12 of service fees. This is what I knew was coming, and it upset me. It legitimately upset me earlier for you, because I want you to care. I want you to care more than me, and I care a lot. So that's why I was very upset earlier. When you're like, These are the $5 that I allow myself or 5 purchases I allow myself. No, no, no, not even close. No. Because we're Krispy Kremen. We're Big Lots, and we're Starbucks, and we're getting massages. The Klarna. We didn't even talk about Klarna. So we're probably. We have financing things. We get a massage every second of our life. Uber Eats. Uber Eats, Starbucks, Amazon Spirit, Halloween. We don't need to be doing it if we can't afford to live more. Klarna. Go into the movies. 33, $33.76. Getting some teas, Panda Express, JCPenney, 84 bucks. So that's it. Was that the jeans?

[A]

JCPenney with shoes.

[B]

You didn't have any other shoes?

[A]

Not the shoes that I needed, no.

[B]

For what?

[A]

So September's my birthday month, and my partner paid for a Punta Cana vacation, so I needed shoes to be able to walk on the beach because the only shoes I have are some slip.

[B]

Ons, Bakery, Uber eats, getting waxed, TJ Maxx, UberEats, Taco Bell, some payment through Google, Amazon, Zelling out money. Upstart. Did we even talk about upstart? I don't think we talked about upset. That wasn't in the loans that we talked about. Upstart. Selling out. Zelling out, Zening up now. What was it for? Is for eyelashes. We don't need to be doing that when we just can't afford to live. I want you to, but you can't afford to live. And pinballs. We certainly don't need to be selling out $55.50 or 90 cents for pinballs and selling out for sushi. We're not getting sushi. We're getting sushi. Right now. Dude, I'm sorry. So the five purchases you allowed yourself. No, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. But off you went and then purchased an additional, what, 15, 20 of just bull. This is like almost every day, maybe every other day. Sometimes it's like we have a bull purchase here. Bull purchase here. And I know a day can feel long, and two days can feel long. A week can feel long. Those small little purchases, they can feel like, okay, I just did it here. Not much else has happened. Haven't done much else wrong. But throughout the month, if we just take a look back at this. Dude, this is every day. Sometimes every other day, we're Uber eating, or we're getting a massage or we're getting waxed, or we're getting eyelashes or we're going to pinball, or we're sushiing or we're Panda Express. We're just around. You say you can't make a minimum payment off. Yes, you can. Yes, you can. Just the Taco Bell itself. The Taco Bell itself, combined with a couple of the Uber Eats. Boom. Minimum monthly payment was made. You chose. You chose around. And all that other stuff. Over minimum monthly payments. Over being responsible.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I'm paying everything. So again, I don't.

[B]

We missed the minimum monthly payment. There's a late fee.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I don't do that often still.

[B]

Don't lie to me. If we do it at all, dude, that's all it is. Please, I mean, come on. I don't do it often. It should be a never thing. We're never choosing Starbucks and Uber Eats over making a minimum payment. We're never doing that. I'm being tough on you because I was in a situation, if not worse than this 10 years ago. No more than 10 years ago. And I wish. This is the exact conversation that I wish someone had with me. And that's how I do this. And I know this is tough. You're very brave for coming on the show and wanting to make progress and putting your situation on display for everyone because other people are going to be helpful from it as well. And I hope you make progress. But I need to be very clear. I'm not having it with the line and I'm not having it with the oh, it just. It doesn't happen that often type thing. So. No, we need to accept responsibility now or there is no future with this. If we don't fully accept the responsibility, there is no future.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I'm doing my best.

[B]

You're not. You're not. You just did it again. You're not accepting it. You're not accepting the reality of the situation. You are not doing your best. Your best is not this. Your best is not this. Let me make sure it's all blacked out. It is. Your best is not that. What, three, four purchases that are reasonable on there? Everything that's highlighted is around. When I just asked for you to accept it, you said, I'm trying my best. You are not trying your best. That is not accepting responsibility. That is you deflecting. Just saying, oh, no, I'm trying my best. It's okay. It's not. Your future matters more than you want it to right now. Then your future matters more than you were showing. It matters right now. And then if you and your partner are together forever, your future together matters more. You don't want to bring this into that kind of relationship. If you guys go into a divorce and then get in another marriage, I don't know if that's in the plan. I don't really care. It doesn't matter. But if you go into the long term relationship partnership, I don't want the dog at the end of a leash. Being carrying a bunch of debt and around. Does it make sense?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, that's why he's already doing a lot for me. He helps me, right? Like I'm not paying rent, I'm not paying utilities, I'm not paying anything so that I can at least make my minimums.

[B]

You know what that kind of also means, though? This sucks to say because I know this has been a hard conversation so far.

[A]

No, it means if he kicks me out, that I'm. I'm f ed.

[B]

It means that him taking care of all those other payments and you doing this and around this much, he's enabling your bad behavior. He's saying what you're doing is okay. It's not. So are you willing, Willing to accept responsibility for this?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I'm aware that I did it.

[B]

Are you willing to accept that this is bad and that you will not do this in the future? Will you stop? So let's talk about the reason why we're doing all this then. Why do you think every day, every other day we are going and spending bull money? What do you think your reasoning is?

[A]

Yeah, like I said, I think that this one is a bit of an exception. It was my birthday month and yeah, I wanted to not live with $0 or not have nice things for one month. It was like, I want to enjoy my birthday.

[B]

But you're pushing off the pain you're making. You actually enjoying every month of your life further and further away by digging yourself deeper in the hole. So we're using excuses around different situations and every month's gonna be unique in a different way. We can always justify different things in the end. If your birthday month came around, would you do this again? Would you try to justify again?

[A]

I probably would, yeah. Because I don't think that it's worth living to just pay a credit card. I should be able to do a little stuff here and there.

[B]

That's a bad, that's a toxic mindset for your future because you think the only reason you're living is to pay off the credit card. I want you to attack it now, make sacrifices now, so by the time you're 35, 34, who knows we can figure that out. You never have to pay a credit card again. What you're doing is you are living to pay the credit card because you're extending the process. Your actions are contributing to the thing that you say you don't want to have. So you around for a month because ew, it's my birthday month. Woo. You're extending this situation for years and years to come. You're preventing yourself from getting out of it. You're preventing yourself from ever having enough saved up for retirement so that you can survive. So you're not working in your 80s in order to afford rent because you never saved up enough money to put a down payment on a house. So you're dying on the Walmart floor in order to survive. And who knows what Social Security is going to be like where we're around the same age when we retire. We can't rely on that. People can barely rely on it now. So that's what you are creating. You are living by the thing you do not like paying, living to pay the credit card because you are extending it forever. Instead of saying, okay, I'm gonna be an adult, a mature adult now, take care of this now. So I never have to pay a credit card again in my life.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, that makes more sense.

[B]

Okay, so birthday month comes around. Would you do this again?

[A]

Not if I'm still like, I don't even know how much debt it is.

[B]

So you would not. No. Good. Good. That's. That's really good. That's really good to hear. That's. See, that's the important part of this conversation. I'm so glad just hearing that alone. I am so glad you are here because just that mindset shift itself could save you thousands, if not tens of thousands of dollars. So let us get your total debt because you just said you don't even know how much it is. Is there any other? Oh, there is, yeah.

[A]

It's my personal loan.

[B]

All right.

[A]

I was pretty sure I sent it over.

[B]

This is the off start. I don't have it. I want to take a brief moment to thank today's video sponsor, Aura. Are you sick and tired just like me and everyone else, honestly, of receiving endless spam calls every day? I mean, look at this. Let me open my phone. Look at this. This right here is all spam. It's crap. Except for one friend. There's one friend phone call. The rest is spam. Data brokers are making a fortune selling your information to robocallers, spammers and others who want to learn more about you, like where you live. But with Aura, they can identify data brokers exposing your info and submit opt out requests on your behalf. Brokers are legally required to remove your info if you ask them to, but. But they make it super hard to do. Let Aura handle that for you. Aura also does a lot more to protect you and your family from online threats you can't see. It's really easy to set up so you don't have to download several different apps to get things like parental controls, antivirus, vpn, password management, identity theft insurance and more. You can get everything at one affordable price. Let Aura do the hard work of keeping you safe online so you can focus on other things with peace of mind. Go to aura.com hammer or check out the link at the top of the description below. Thanks again to Aura for sponsoring this episode. What's the balance?

[A]

The total I took out or the total I owe? Oh, 18,000.

[B]

Oh. When did you do this and why?

[A]

I did this last year because I consolidated a bunch of credit card debt. So there's like 12 credit cards that are fully paid off, haven't been used.

[B]

Oh, so it actually worked.

[A]

Yeah, so I had.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

What I did to try to limit myself was I only put all additional.

[B]

Credit cards that you opened within that three year time. Spanish. Wow. You open a credit card every other month. Okay, sorry, go ahead.

[A]

Yeah, so I had a whole bunch of debt. It was like almost $1,000 in payments just to make the minimums. It was unsustainable. I was able to get a personal loan that would bring it down to 650. So it was like a 250 savings, which at the time was worth it to have the extra 250 to try to put elsewhere. And. Yeah, that's. So I did it and I. Oh, sorry. I got sidetracked. So I took those 12 cards and I put them in a little purse and I put them in a drawer, and I don't have access to them. I don't use them.

[B]

Because you close the accounts.

[A]

No, because I would close the accounts.

[B]

I don't give a. About your credit. Your credit's not benefiting you. Your credit's not benefiting you. This is. This is a tool against your own destruction, Not a tool for your own success. Right now, I don't give a single credit. Credit can be a good tool for people who know how to utilize. You don't, so I don't care. Close them so you don't have access. Okay. What's the interest rate? What's the minimum monthly payment?

[A]

I think that. That one is 32% and the minimum monthly payment is 653.18.32% on a personal loan of death.

[B]

That may as well be a credit card. Utilities is paid by boyfriend. Okay. And now I saw some klarnas.

[A]

Yeah, I bought four outfits for my vacation.

[B]

Vacation wasn't much of a gift, was it? This was a. Let's go further into debt. Okay. Any other debt?

[A]

Not that I can think of. No.

[B]

$46,829.71 of debt. None of which is benefiting you. None of it being good, none of it being proper leverage of any kind. It's all just negative, bad death, destroying the world debt. Okay, what do you want to do from here? Because this feels like a different conversation than normal. What do you want to do from here?

[A]

I want to work it down. That's why I took out that personal loan. Because like I said, I closed those. Not closed. Right. But got rid of the balance on those 12, and it reduced my monthly payment by 250. And I felt like that alone was a little bit of a win. That loan's paid off in three more years, so I kind of. That's what I'm aiming for. In three years. My car's paid off, my loan's paid off, and that puts almost $1,000 a month back in my pocket. And then I can start working to pay other things off.

[B]

If I gave you a very strict budget, would you follow it?

[A]

If I could, yeah.

[B]

What do you mean, if you could?

[A]

I mean, like, if it makes sense. If it covers everything that I need.

[B]

Well, it's going to cover everything you need. I'm not going to have you die. Okay? So you don't pay for rent, you don't pay for utilities? Correct. Okay. How does grocery shopping and everything work in this household? With your.

[A]

Right now they are covering pretty much 100% of all living expenses.

[B]

Okay. So you don't have to do that. Oh, geez. Your minimum payments just on your debts? 1653 1. Wow. Wow. Car insurance. Are you paying for that? How much?

[A]

I pay 120.

[B]

It's not bad. We're going to be starting with just the new job in terms of how we're calculating your pay and expenses and everything. I'll give you like 50 bucks a month for makeup and whatever else you need for the house to just feel comfortable and whatever. Call your toilet paper fund, phone bill. You pay for it?

[A]

Yeah, I pay my portion. My portion is. I think it's also like 125, 135.

[B]

Any other gas? How much do you spend on gas?

[A]

Almost nothing. I would say I spent maybe $30 a month.

[B]

That's good. What else do you have to pay for on a monthly basis?

[A]

So I pay for his food, his litter. Okay, give me a monthly amount, maybe 35.

[B]

Anything else?

[A]

Not that I can think of.

[B]

So it's very critical, by the way, for you to have an emergency fund in a non marriage situation relying on a partner so much. The other person at the end of this leash. They have so much power right now in terms of how your life. You can't just move out if it's a dangerous situation ever. Not saying that. That's of course, you know what would happen or anything. But if anything happens, a breakup, whatever, we need you to have something because you can't afford.

[A]

Yeah, I used to like to have about 5,000 in the bank. That was where I would float.

[B]

Yeah, I would do minimum 10, but I mean, yeah, just about. I'm gonna say you have an extra. Cause you need $2,020 to survive on a monthly basis in this budget. And you said you needed everything. You will follow a budget if that's everything you need to survive. That's everything you need to survive. Correct. So you'll follow that budget?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Good. So you have about a thousand dollars extra with your new job on a monthly basis. Ish. Again, some months are going to be a little more. Some months are going to be a little less, especially on hourly with that, I mean, there's going to be a compound effect. The way I would do it for you. We need to get rid of minimum monthly payments as quick as we can in order to make more and More progress. So I think again for like the vast majority of cases on the show, the snowball method is going to be what's most effective. So it's the smallest debt to the biggest debt. First month, let's set that 1,000 bucks aside. Second month, let's set another thousand bucks aside. Boom. That's two months. It'll cover you. It's a two month, one month emergency fund saved in two months. Month number three, let's pay off that Walmart card and the Capital One Platinum card. Then let's put the rest towards Amazon as well. I think you could almost pay off the entire Amazon card. You'd pay off the entire Amazon card and Walmart card actually. And all of a sudden we're just getting more money. We're able to start throwing the things and the next month you throw off the platinum. So I'm just going to do some quick math because we're just going to do smallest to largest and thinking about the compounding effect it. Or just I just want to give you an idea of how your hard work can pay off. That's actually easy. So without any compound, without any compound effect. Take rounded up four years on that budget. Four years compound effect as you're going through killing them and you have more minimum payment. Probably do this in about three and a half, maybe three years.

[A]

I mean that would be nice. That's when the personal loan and the car off.

[B]

Yeah, essentially. And you'll be, you'll be killing them. Those, both of those are your larger ones. So they're gonna be going towards the end anyway. The second to last that you pay off is that car. And then the last debt you pay off is the upstart. So you'll be attacking them, but we're gonna attack smallest, largest. But that's with a thousand hours left on an extra month. What I want you to do is try to work as many hours as you can at this job. Now you're sitting. And that works with your medical situation.

[A]

I used to volunteer for overtime at a similar, the first job I got when I got here.

[B]

And let's volunteer. But if you're not getting overtime, we're probably making some fries at Whataburger after work or we're continuing the pancake moving around type thing. The extra money, let's just say you bring in an extra $250 a week. You know, times that by 52, divide that by 12. Okay, lovely. That's about an extra thousand. About a thousand bucks a month, you know, so that's that doubles this. That doubles the extra money you have to throw towards this. You could cut this in half. You could finish this in a year and a half to two years. You're. And a half to two years. You just go work. This is what I'm talking about with the temporary sacrifice. The temporary sacrifice is the month of your special birthday month where you wanted to spend money. Okay? We're not doing that because we just want to get out of the situation so you can have a special month, every month, budgeted. If we work our butt off right now, just go wild, go wild. You can pay this off in a year and a half to two years. But that's your choice at this point. It's your choice if you're going to follow this budget. It's your choice if you're going to have special months and justifications and excuses. It's your choice if you go work the extra job. I, from this conversation, want you to succeed very much. And we're gonna make sure that we're in constant communication that we do. I will say that I'm very nervous just based on the excuses we made, the white lies and everything around that and the justifications and everything. So I'm a little nervous. To be very clear. I want you to prove my nerves wrong. I want you to prove my nerves wrong. I want you to go work that extra job. I want you to come back in a year and a half to two years, sit here and tell my nerves to. And that they're dumb because you kicked ass. Because by the time you're 24, if you go and go wild or 34, by the time you're 34, you are not even halfway through your life statistically, yet you have decades and decades and decades of your life yet left that you can be saving just a little bit for retirement. You can be spending more on fun, and you can fully afford your portion of living expenses without having to rely on anyone else. That's what I want for you. But how bad do you want that for yourself? Bad enough to follow this, the way I talked about it. Bad enough to go work those extra jobs.

[A]

I don't know about working the extra jobs, but, I mean, I'm willing to.

[B]

Why not the extra jobs?

[A]

Because if I don't have any time off, I'm gonna burn out.

[B]

I'm not saying no time off. Not saying no time off. Let's say you work from 8 to 5 Monday through Friday. Let's call Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday we go pick up a shift at Pancakes. Then we have Wednesday evenings off and we fully have Saturday Sundays off. Boom. Time off, recuperate. And you're right, there is chance of burnout. And I need you to watch that and be safe. But let's not just immediately set up excuses not to do something. Do you want this to last four years?

[A]

Not really.

[B]

I feel like you're gonna burn. I think. I feel like there's a. I feel like being on a strict budget and all the money going towards the paying off debt that you could be having fun. I feel like there's a higher chance of burning out in four years than going a little crazy for two years.

[A]

I mean, maybe. I don't know.

[B]

Okay, well, I don't know what else I can add. That's what I would do because I was in a similar situation, but I also had like private student loans. I had less credit cards, but I had private student loans and really bad car debt, family debt and stuff like that. So I was in a very bad situation as well. And I worked my off. I sacrificed and going through that. And again, wishing I had this exact conversation over a decade ago. This is what I would literally do if I woke up tomorrow in your body. I would take off the collar because I'd probably find it uncomfortable and scratchy, but this is exactly what I would do. And that's the only way I give advice.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I appreciate it. I didn't. When I look through it, like you said, it doesn't feel like I'm doing a lot because it's here and there. And I don't feel like the. The amounts were very high. Like it was $50 or less. But yeah, I mean, I see how it adds up.

[B]

Any final thoughts? Any questions?

[A]

No.

[B]

That's a tough conversation. It's going to be a tough path forward. I really hope she listens. I hope she accepts responsibility and sacrifices. That's what's needed right now. Hammer Financial Score Spending a budget. I mean, picking Uber eats over a minimum payment. 0 out of 10 debt. Pretty. I mean, that's an extensive crazy debt with those minimum 0 out of 10 emergency fund. Nothing. 0 out of 10 retirement, very behind for age 1 out of 10. Real estate. Certainly not a part of the conversation yet. 0 out of 10 gonna be generous and say that's a 0.5 out of 10. Make sure to check out all the resources linked in the description below. They are what I use or would use in specific situations. If you want to be in an episode of Financial Audit and you're able to make it down to Austin, Texas. Fill out the survey in the description below.