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- [00:00]
Lyndon Blake
You know what's crazy? There's actually bread, pastries, even noodles out there that you can enjoy and you don't have that guilt trip of eating junk food. And they're honestly not that bad for you. I'm actually traveling right now, but I have a hero bread box waiting for me back in Nashville, and I am genuinely looking forward to getting home and trying everything from their white bread to their everything bagels. Herobred makes products that look delicious while focusing on high quality ingredients, including prebiotic fibers that are good for your gut. Why do you think it's so important to go with your gut?
- [00:35]
Host of That's So Criminal
Your gut has to be healthy.
- [00:37]
Lyndon Blake
Herobred is a breath of fresh air. Their products contain zero grams of sugar and are sweetened with alternatives to traditional sugar. One thing that actually really caught my attention is their seeded bread. It has just 60 calories per serving compared to other brands that have around 110 calories per serving. If you're like me and have to be mindful of nuts, I'm allergic to quite a few. Herobred also offers products like their white bread, spinach and herb tortillas and croissants without nuts. And they don't stop at just bread. They have pasta too. So I can already tell you one of the first things I'm making when I get home is penne al arrabbiata. And if you've got a little sweet tooth, Herobread has options there as well, including treats like their pain au chocolate. If you're looking for a smarter way to enjoy bread, pastries and pasta without sacrificing the taste, join me on this better bread journey. I'll keep you posted on what I like after I open my box. Herobred is offering 10% off your order, so go to Hero Co and use code dwcrime at checkout. That's dwcrimehero Co. You know what's crazy? There's actually bread, pastries, even noodles out there that you can enjoy and you don't have that guilt trip of eating junk food. And they're honestly not that bad for you. I'm actually traveling right now, but I have a hero bread box waiting for me back in Nashville, and I am genuinely looking forward to getting home and trying everything from their white bread to their everything bagels. Herobred makes products that look delicious while focusing on high quality ingredients, including prebiotic fibers that are good for your gut. Why do you think it's so important to go with your gut?
- [02:19]
Host of That's So Criminal
Your gut has to be healthy.
- [02:21]
Lyndon Blake
Herobred is a breath of fresh air. Their products contain 0 grams of sugar and are sweetened with alternatives to traditional sugar. One thing that actually really caught my attention is their seeded bread. It has just 60 calories per serving compared to other brands that have around 110 calories per serving. If you're like me and have to be mindful of nuts, I'm allergic to quite a few. Herobred also offers products like their white bread, spinach and herb tortillas and croissants without nuts. And they don't stop at just bread. They have pasta, too. So I can already tell you one of the first things I'm making when I get home is penne al arrabbiata. And if you've got a little sweet tooth, Herobread has options there as well, including treats like their pain au chocolate. If you're looking for a smarter way to enjoy bread, pastries and pasta without sacrificing the taste, join me on this better Bread journey. I'll keep you posted on what I like after I open my box. Herobred is offering 10% off your order, so go to Hero Co and use code DWCRIME at checkout. That's D W CRIMEHERO CO.
- [03:30]
Podcast/Show Tagline Voice
That's so criminal.
- [03:38]
Lyndon Blake
Thanks for being with us all week. As we have covered Tyler Robinson's preliminary trial. If you missed any of today's proceedings, here's a recap of the final day. I'm Lyndon Blake, and you're listening to that's so Criminal.
- [03:53]
Podcast/Show Tagline Voice
That's so Criminal.
- [03:55]
Host of That's So Criminal
Welcome back in, everyone. I'm the host of that's so Criminal. Lyndon Blake here as we are wrapping up Tyler Robinson, the accused killer of Charlie Kirk's preliminary hearing. The hearing took five days and court is adjourned till September 1, when both sides come back and have a total of a total of four hours for the state and the defense to argue their final call for the judge to see if Tyler Robinson goes to trial again. This is a police preliminary hearing for probable cause. A lot happened on day four today. We saw the defense wrap up with their final witness. That was Caitlyn Oliver. She was the DNA section chief of the atf. Before we get to our guests, I'm going to quickly go over the points that stood out to me from her time on the stand. I do want to say this was a defense witness. They were there to create confusion, to hold her to her account. So she says something is so at the preliminary hearing and she changes up in trial. The defense can bring that up and say no, you already said this on the record in the preliminary hearing. So the things that stood out to me, they talked a lot about statistics and the defense was questioning a lot about the limitations of the strategies and the, the methods that they use there and her in her DNA department at the atf. But one thing that stood out is she said the chances of the DNA on the rifle being someone else's other than Tyler Robinson is less than 1 in 1 trillion. And trillion is just as large as they go. And Oliver said the DNA found on the rifle is at least 1 trillion times more likely if it originated from Tyler Robinson than if it was someone else's DNA. That was a big argument for the defense. They were talking about the number of DNA profiles found on some of these household items that were shared amongst Tyler's family, that was shared amongst Lance Twigs and Tyler Robinson. And where she said she can't tell the action of the DNA, which to me is common knowledge that you can say that DNA is present on an object that's what she is testing for, but that DNA cannot tell you how a major contributor used an object. That made a lot of sense to me. But of course that's the defense doing their job as a good defense team by just saying like, oh, well, if you can't tell me that, then do we believe, you know, what other limitations does your DNA testing have? It's kind of a good way to look at it. But again, when she was cross examined, the prosecution really helped guide her into some straight statistics that they were able to get on record to like the DNA on the rifle being someone else's is less than 1 in 1 trillion. So we wrapped up the preliminary hearing with the Kirk family and in the courtroom viewing that enhanced surveillance footage. This is with the zooms. The zooms outs the circles of the UVU footage that the public was shown, the raw footage a couple of days ago. That is how it wrapped up. So again, both sides are going to break. The prosecution said they would need about six weeks to get their briefing together. That just means their argument, their final argument for Judge Tony Graf to say, this is why we believe Tyler Robinson should go to trial. Or once they make their briefing vas, the defense will get it and be able to make their argument for Judge Graff and say this is why our client should not be bent over to trial for the murder of Charlie Kirk. So this will all happen on September 1st. And he made it clear today because time constraints were a big thing. We saw the defense get reigned back in twice today. By the prosecution and the judge saying, hey, we're going down the rabbit hole beyond probable cause. So again, Judge Graff said four hours for total argument for both side. On September 1st, the defense did say they want Robinson present. Tyler Robinson today did deny his opportunity to give testimony. That is not surprising that he did not take the stand. And we were told today that he would not be entering a plea. So still no plea from Robinson. With that being said, now that we can put a bookmark on this case. For now, after the preliminary hearing, I want to bring back in David Gelman. He is a defense attorney. He has been very insightful for all the evidence and for all the tactics that we have seen in this very public preliminary hearing. And I am just so interested to hear his takeaway. So, David, thank you so much for joining us again.
- [08:43]
David Gelman
Hey, Lyndon, thanks for having me. Three days in a row. I love it.
- [08:46]
Host of That's So Criminal
Hey, you know, three strikes was brought up today in court. We have you three days in a row, but you are not striking out, my friend. You have been batting a thousand with us.
- [08:56]
Lyndon Blake
And I do want to just start
- [08:58]
Host of That's So Criminal
with an overall question. What is your biggest takeaway from this preliminary hearing?
- [09:05]
David Gelman
Nothing. I mean, this was a waste of time. It really was the DNA expert. They did not need to bring the her in this today. Why? Because this is a probable cause hearing. This. I mean, I feel like I'm getting deja vu. Like Groundhog Day. We keep saying this every day. There is no need for this. That would be a trial issue. We know what's going to happen. We know that the judge is going to rule that there is probable cause and that this can proceed to a trial. I mean, frankly, the judge today could have just said on the bench after everybody was done, all right, I find probable cause because it is such a low burden to prove. And he could have said that. And then he could have said, oh, look, I'll give you a written opinion about that. So we have it for the record. But obviously he wants to, you know, cross his T's, dot his I's, make sure everybody has an opportunity. And everybody knows the writings on the wall. We know what's going to happen. But look, I guess the defense, they're really just wanting to get as much evidence out of the prosecutor as possible and to see, you know, what they have to. That they're going to be attacking them.
- [10:12]
Host of That's So Criminal
Yeah. So their drawn out strategy for the defense could have potentially been, we're going to keep this going and see what else the prosecution feels like they need to bring to the table to cross examine our witnesses or present after we bring up a witness for themselves to kind of get a better idea of the prosecution strategy if this goes to trial.
- [10:33]
David Gelman
Yep, that's exactly it. I mean, look, it's, it's a good strategy, but look, I'm sure the judge is not happy. This should have really been done in two hours, three hours at most. I mean, again, it's a probable cause hearing. You don't need to make a spectacle, which is what they did. I don't know if they did that just because it's such a highly publicized case and that with national interest, which that certainly could be possible, or they just want to make sure that they have everything for maybe a potential appeal eventually or like a plea. I, you know, so there's a lot of different scenarios and reasons why they did it. I, you know, we'll probably never know, but it really was something that could have been avoided. And, and for the Kirks, too, you know, they didn't have to be put through all of this for the whole week.
- [11:18]
Host of That's So Criminal
A big debate to kick off day five. The preliminary hearing was about that note that was not supposed to be shown to the public in the courtroom yesterday. Tyler Robinson's alleged note that was underneath the keyboard that was made public back in March when documents were unsealed. But I do think it went to the defensive strategy. But what did you see from them bringing that up in court today? And do you think that they were able to. To get enough out of it by getting evidence being blocked from public view today? Like, do you think they would consider their appeal there a win?
- [11:55]
David Gelman
Oh, yeah, a thousand percent. I mean, look, if you don't have to have the cameras in the courtroom and. Well, I'm sorry, the cameras can't show exhibits in the courtroom today. I definitely think that's a win because the defense doesn't want this to be going out any more than it already is to the public. Now, look, the public knows. I mean, most, most people realize what happened that particular day that Charlie Kirk was murdered. Now, do they know the details? I don't know. Not everybody in the world is following this, but a lot of people are, especially in that particular area. So if they can keep certain things to close to the vest so the public doesn't know, yeah, that's a definite win for the defense.
- [12:33]
Host of That's So Criminal
How strong was that Lance Twig's recorded testimony in regards to being very solid evidence for the prosecution? If you were the defense, how do you attack that?
- [12:47]
David Gelman
Look, it's going to be Difficult. It's going to be really difficult. He was very credible in his statement. Now, granted, he didn't have anybody challenging him, cross examining him. However, he was calm, he was cool, he was collected. All right. He was very specific in his answers. He wasn't answering it like, well, maybe, or, you know, I'm not exactly sure. No, he knew, he said it specifically. You know, questions were, you know, have you ever talked, did he ever talk about transgender rights and Charlie Kirk? And he said no, flat out, no. Talked about the hunting, that the bullets were being engraved for hunting. All these things were very detailed. And I would be very, very scared if I'm the defense. And he's going to be testifying at a trial because if he does it, really, I don't, you're going to try to have to cross him up a little bit, but he's going to be coached very well by the prosecutor. And again, he is very credible. So it's going to be a very, very difficult time for them if that does come to fruition.
- [13:47]
Host of That's So Criminal
Speaking of credible witnesses, and this is us kind of theorizing here, if this does go to trial, do you foresee Tyler's parents taking the stand?
- [14:00]
David Gelman
You know, we, I know we talked about this before. I know the prosecutors are going to want, want them to take the stand. I, I, if you're a parent, I think it's going to be very difficult to throw your kid under the bus. I mean, you know, don't you, I, I just, I don't see them doing it. I see them taking the Fifth Amendment of privilege. With that being said prosecution, all they can do is say, you know what, no problem, we'll give you immunity. So now you have no Fifth Amendment prosecution. You can't, you can't deal with it. So I think they, they could potentially do that, but I don't think the parents are going to want to testify if they can avoid doing that. And that's just another reason to do a plea.
- [14:46]
Host of That's So Criminal
What do you think now the defense will attack the most if this goes to trial? We got a little peek today or throughout this week of DNA, of bullets ballistics. Do you think there's anything else they could be thinking about to bring to the table if this goes to trial?
- [15:06]
David Gelman
You know, Lyndon, I think those are the two key areas that they're going to really attack DNA. And look, any trial when there's a DNA involved in it, when you don't, you know, there's still a question of who did it, you're definitely going to be attacking that, and that is probably going to be the central premise of their, of their defense. The gunshots. Well, I should say the shell casing that was found on the other building. I'm sure they'll attack that. They'll also attack the investigation and how it came about. And you know, did officers do everything the correct way? Was everything done? Was there a chain of custody done for each and every object? And they'll attack every little thing to try to create reasonable doubt. That's what a defense attorney does. Now, can you get enough reasonable doubt into this jury? That's the question. And remember, you only need one juror, just one out of 12 of them to have some type of reasonable doubt. And if you do, that's going to be a real, that's going to be a tough situation for the prosecutor to overcome. And then what are you going to do? You're going to have a mistrial or not guilty. That. Talk about having egg on your face. So just, I keep saying it, this should be a plea agreement for all parties.
- [16:22]
Host of That's So Criminal
So you think that this could be a situation where Tyler Robinson does take a plea deal if this goes to trial,
- [16:30]
David Gelman
prior to trial? Yeah, I mean, I, I, yeah, I, I, I, again, I probably in the minority about this right now, but things change, obviously, especially when it gets closer to a trial. Remember the Brian Kohlberger, he took a plea deal the day before his, when his trial was supposed to start. So it's not unlikely that, that an individual will take that, he'll take a plea deal just before trial starts. You do it for multiple reasons. Number one, if you lose, that's game over. You're jackpotted, man. You're going to get the death penalty. So they take the death penalty off the table and he gets life without the possibility of parole. It could be a win win for everybody. Again, the other the Kirk family, they don't have to go through it. His parents don't have to go through with it. So he'd be sparing a lot of people, you know, obviously. So I do in the end believe that there will be a plea.
- [17:24]
Host of That's So Criminal
Okay, I want you now to kind of take us through the mindset of a defense attorney during this, this break. Before September 1st. It's a break for all of us because we're not going to see them. But there's going to be a lot of working from the prosecution, from the defense, behind the scenes as we get to that September 1st hearing. What, what are they going to be doing? What is going to be the strategy? What's going to be going on.
- [17:48]
David Gelman
Well, number one, they're definitely not taking a break. But number two, the defense and even the prosecution for that matter, they're going to be going over this. These last four or five days. They're going to be examining each and every witness, each and every piece of evidence that was presented, how each side presented it, what the. What the strengths are, what the weaknesses are. They're going to go through all the evidence again, and then they're going to obviously have to write their briefs and to fight and to end responsive briefs as well. And look, I wouldn't be surprised if there are some, you know, negotiations potentially. So I think if one of the parties picks up the phone, prosecutor, defense, and you know, they start talking, I think, you know, they may make a little headway in having one of those. But, you know, I think it's. That might be a little too early, but they're going to be doing everything up for the next six weeks to really prepare as if they're going to a trial. Because these, these briefing schedules that they're having is, you know, kind of like the closing arguments. If you think about it at a trial, you got to summarize everything that you believe was correct on your side and that the other side did incorrectly and why the judge should rule in your favor.
- [19:02]
Host of That's So Criminal
That is great intel. Thanks for pulling the curtain back for us. Is there anything else that you wish I would have asked you about this preliminary hearing?
- [19:13]
David Gelman
Well, just why the heck did it take so long? Now, we talked about that before, obviously. No, I. Lennon, I'm telling you, you are. You're probably better than the people in the courtroom. So you did everything. You. You asked some great questions.
- [19:26]
Host of That's So Criminal
Hey, you know, I. I am a. An online attorney. You know, I. I'm not a practicing one, but when I watch these things, I'm just like, I get in the mode because, I mean, it is. And that's the. My interest in true crime and everything. And I'm sure that's why you got into it, because it's. It is very. It's sometimes boring. But I thought this preliminary hearing, because it did take so long and because it was public, it gave people that may not be that familiar because this is such a high profile case, the opportunity to kind of see how the state makes a case, what the defense kind of goes and how a judge is. Balances all sides, including the victim's family.
- [20:07]
David Gelman
Yeah, that's exactly correct. Now, look, everybody should really understand, though, this is a unicorn. These, again, preliminary hearings are very rare. Utah doesn't have a grand jury. So they have. This is their way of getting a matter to go to a trial. So that's number one. But if they do have a preliminary hearing, it's only a couple hours, maybe a day at Most. This really 5 days is unheard of. So this is like a mini trial in itself. And everybody has to understand, you know, this is not like law and order where, you know, you get one scene and then you're right into the trial. There's a lot of preparation to go to a trial, and 99% of cases in the whole country do not go to trial. Because think about it, if they did, the whole court system would be backed up even more than it already is. So, you know, all that being said, that may be another reason why, in my opinion at least, that there will probably be a plea at the end.
- [21:02]
Host of That's So Criminal
One more question. Is there something that you were shocked the defense didn't bring up?
- [21:11]
David Gelman
That's a good question. You know, I don't think so, because they attacked what they could attack, you know, with twigs. They can't confront him because he's not there. So the only, only had there was a state was a statement. So they can't cross examine him because if obviously that happened, then they would have, you know, had a field day with him and asking all these different questions about is he sure of XYZ and whatnot. Other than that, I don't see that the, the, the defense really, you heard their case by any, any means of the imagination. But again, you got. Everybody should remember one thing. This preliminary hearing, it's, it's pretty much a slam dunk for the prosecution and not just for this case. Pretty much for every case. Probable cause is such a low standard that the defense, they can yell up and down, they can bring out some questions and all, but those questions don't really mean anything because as long as the prosecutor can bring out certain facts, you got your probable cause already. That's totally different at a trial because you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the individual is the one who committed the crime. But in this, it's a very low burden. So the defense, even, they did everything they probably could, but it's just not going to be enough for these types of hearings.
- [22:31]
Host of That's So Criminal
David Gelman, everyone. Thank you so much. We've enjoyed your insight three days in a row. I'm going to give you Saturday off, okay? I'm going to let you take the weekend.
- [22:40]
David Gelman
I appreciate it. But you know, Linda, if you called me, I'd come on for you.
- [22:43]
Host of That's So Criminal
Oh, thank you so much. Have a great rest of your Friday.
- [22:47]
David Gelman
Thank you. Same to you.
- [22:51]
Lyndon Blake
You know what's crazy? There's actually bread, pastries, even noodles out there that you can enjoy and you don't have that guilt trip of eating junk food and they're honestly not that bad for you. I'm actually traveling right now, but I have a hero bread box waiting for me back in Nashville and I am genuinely looking forward to getting home and trying. Everything from their white bread to their everything bagels. Herobred makes products that look delicious while focusing on high quality ingredients including prebiotic fibers that are good for your gut. Why do you think it's so important to go with your gut?
- [23:27]
Host of That's So Criminal
Your gut has to be healthy.
- [23:28]
Lyndon Blake
Herobred is a breath of fresh air. Their products contain zero grams of sugar. Love that. And are sweetened with alternatives to traditional sugar. One thing that actually really caught my attention is their seeded bread. It adds just 60 calories per serving compared to other brands that have around 110 calories per serving. If you're like me and have to be mindful of nuts, I'm allergic to quite a few. Herobred also offers products like their white bread, spinach and herb tortillas and croissants without nuts. And they don't stop at just bread. They have pasta too. So I can already tell you one of the first things I'm making when I get home is penne al arrabbiata. And if you've got a little sweet tooth, Herobread has options there as well, including treats like their pain au chocolate. If you're looking for a smarter way to enjoy bread, pastries and pasta without sacrificing the taste, join me on this Better Bread journey. I'll keep you posted on what I like after I open my box. Herobred is offering 10% off your order, so go to Hero Co and use code DWCRIME at checkout. That's D W crimehero.co anticipate comfort on
- [24:37]
Podcast/Show Tagline Voice
the court and after the match in Lululemon tennis gear. Breathable fabrics keep air flowing through long rallies. Dynamic stretch lets you go all out on every sprint, split step and return. And after the final point lands. Lightweight layers mean your day isn't done. Cool down, hit the clubhouse and relive each play. Shop tennis gear in stores and online@lululemon.com.
- [25:06]
Host of That's So Criminal
Before we go, I'm just going to quickly wrap it up in case you missed a day of this preliminary hearing. Day one was a lot of foundation Laying with witnesses from the state, talking about the layout of campus, talking about what was found on certain parts of campus. Just getting a very familiar landscape of where things were to establish credibility for the witnesses. And then we started seeing the evidence be introduced. The surveillance footage of UVU showing what the officials on the stand said was Tyler Robinson going to campus four different times, eating Chick Fil A. They said he even went down to the amphitheater area and interacted with TPA representatives. That was a quote from the person on the stand, one of the state's witnesses. And then of course we finally, after a day of arguing, can we show a video of Lance Twiggs? Can we not show a video of Lance Twigs? The judge decided to show a redacted version of Lance Twiggs recorded statement where he opened up about what Tyler Robinson told told him about the crime. On September 10, we were able to get an another look at text messages that much of were made public months before. But we were able to see more texts in a different form. We were able to hear about more evidence that Lance Twigs was able to share with Ryan McBride from the state talking about when he thought that Tyler Robinson started engraving these bullets and why Lance Twigs thought he was doing all of this. We got some insight from Lance Twigs on his interactions with Tyler Robinson in the hours before Tyler Robinson surrendered to authorities. That was a powerful testimony from Lance Twigs who was given immunity for his statement under oath. We were also shown DNA evidence from multiple things found at the crime scene and DNA evidence from multiple things found inside Tyler Robinson and Lance Twig's home. We were also presented with defense witnesses throughout this preliminary hearing that were DNA experts, that were forensic experts where the defense tried to really poke holes and people's legitimacy, their practices and their methods to try to create that record for them to be held accountable for if this goes to trial. There were many moments of objections throughout this preliminary hearing from the state and the defense, which was all very normal as they are again building their case for a potential trial. As we're going through a preliminary hearing for probable cause. And we wrapped up today with a little bit of drama regarding a note that was accidentally shown to the public that wasn't supposed to be shown. A piece of evidence that was only for the court to see. But the public got shown so briefly. The defense had a win on the final day in the preliminary hearing where they were able to get the judge to say no more. Exhibits shown to the public on the live stream. But now we will wait for September 1st when the prosecution and the defense will all come back together in the courtroom in Provo, Utah, and give their final arguments for why or why not Tyler Robinson should go to trial for the murder of Charlie Kirk and Judge Tony Graff and Judge Graff alone will make that decision. And then the case will go on from there. I want to thank you guys so much for being with us throughout the week. It it was long days, but a lot of information was shared and I hope you guys were able to take something away from the preliminary hearing and from our coverage here at the Daily Wire. And we will see you back here on September 1st.
- [28:49]
Podcast/Show Tagline Voice
So criminal.
- [28:53]
Lyndon Blake
Again, thank you guys so much for following along with our coverage of Tyler Robinson's preliminary hearing.
- [28:58]
Host of That's So Criminal
Of course, who could continue to follow this case as it makes its way through the court system?
- [29:04]
Lyndon Blake
And also be sure to tune back in for new episodes next week. I'm Lyndon Blake and you've been listening
- [29:09]
Host of That's So Criminal
to that's so Criminal.
- [29:19]
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