← Fintech Leaders
Fintech Leaders
Kamran Zaki, ICONIQ Growth Partner - From Building a $50Bn Global Payments Giant to Fintech Investor
Loading summary
Transcript48 lines
- [00:00]
A
Definitely. Always looking for great companies in general, but if they have global applicability then I think that's one even more exciting but also selfishly makes the opportunity even bigger. When I joined PayPal in 2004, when we would go to talk to large financial institutions around the world about partnering with them, we used to have to spend the first half hour educating them on what PayPal was.
- [00:36]
B
Hello everyone and welcome to Fintech Leaders coming to you from New York City. I'm your host Miguel Armasa. I'm a co founder of Gilgamesh Ventures, a venture capital fund that backs early stage fintech entrepreneurs. If you enjoy this conversation, I invite you to leave a review on Apple or Spotify so more people can learn about Fintech leaders. In this episode I interview Kamran Zaki, partner at Iconic Growth and former COO of Adyen. Iconic Growth is a multi billion dollar fund that has backed dozens of amazing companies, 27 of which have IPO'd and together they comprise a market cap of over $1.5 trillion. Some of their fintech investments include Adyen, Chime Ramp, Robinhood, Monzo and bill dot com. We discuss what it means to be a value ad investor and vc. Lessons from Adyen, the keys and challenges of building a truly global company, taking Adyen public and lessons for company leaders looking to IPO in the coming years. Camran's take on stablecoins, traits and patterns of great leaders and a lot more. Kamaran welcome to Fintech Leaders. Delighted to be welcoming you all the way from California.
- [02:09]
A
Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me back. I had the pleasure of doing one of these with you a few years ago when I was still with Idea and so great to be back with you.
- [02:17]
B
I'm the one who's very honored, so thank you. By the way. So around that time you were with Adyen, you were the coo. It's a big company, of course, Adyen. And now you've gone to a role where it's a much leaner team. I want to start by hearing about what is it that you miss the most about your day to day at Adyen?
- [02:41]
A
That's a great question. Honestly, the people, if you take a step back, I was with adyen for almost 10 years and left them last summer. I think it was a great company and when we had done our session on Anya and one of the things we had talked a lot about was culture and how that was critical, not just from a people standpoint but it was like so central to how we ran the business, how we Made decisions, how we empowered people. So I'm still in touch with a lot of my colleagues. Luckily, a lot of them are in the Bay Area or come through here pretty often. And honestly, that might be a good segue to maybe your follow on question. That was a very important part of why I chose to join the team at Iconic. I'd known them for about a decade as well. They were early investors at Idean, and in addition to having a great track record in terms of actual investment, I also found that they have a very strong culture. It's a great team. And that was really important to me after what I'd been lucky enough to experience on the Adyen side. So I miss the people, but I really cherish my new colleagues and friends. You know, the other part is obviously there's a difference between being an operative and investor. And, you know, I think like anything, it's yin and yang. There's great positives on both sides and there's some things you miss on each. So overall, I think amazing experience at Adyen and really thrilled to be having an opportunity to now be on the other side with Iconic.
- [04:01]
B
So thinking back on those days when you were on the board of Adyen and Iconic Growth was an investor, what was it about Iconic and also other investors that really stood out as value add? Because of course, everyone wants to get there. Everyone wants to. Every investor wants to be regarded as a great investor as a value add. Not everyone gets there. What was it for you that stood out?
- [04:30]
A
I think a couple of things, right? In general, what you want as a company from investors is one, that they're with you through thick and thin, right? It's usually easy in the good times, but every company has bumps along the way and you want to make sure your team and your investors. Right, are with you on that journey and are supportive. I think two, it's investors can help in a few different ways. One is through introductions, right, to potential customers. Two is if you're looking for executive talent or additions to your board, once you're further along, helping with those types of things. And then the third is obviously every company goes through different stages of growth and inflection points and potentially making introductions to other great founders or companies who've been there before you and how you could leverage their learnings and expertise. And I think that's what I found in many of our investors, but especially in Iconic. And back to, you know, the culture, the people, they call it the uncommon care, right? How do you go above and beyond and how do you make sure. You're sort of earning the right to be an investor and continue being an investor for the long term and then it'll pay back hopefully with how do you then take, you know, these great investors and how do you help them generate uncommon outcomes and then how do you sort of help them pay it back to the society by introducing them to the next generation of great investors per se.
- [05:53]
B
Now that you're on the investor side, how do you find yourself spending your days?
- [05:59]
A
Yeah, probably maybe about 70% of it is on meeting new companies and new founders. Right. Building those relationships. And when there's either an explicit opportunity or when you find sort of yourself having deep conviction that this is the right team, the right sort of company, they found product market fit, how do you sort of lean in and partner with them to. To become an investor? And then probably about 30% is with, you know, existing portfolio companies. And how could I be helpful? Right. As I said, in different aspects of operating international expansion, executive search, whatever may be top of mind for them where maybe I've had some experience on my journey and can sort of pay it back to them.
- [06:40]
B
So speaking of international expansion, I know from our conversations that that was something important for you back at Adyen. Not only did the company become a lot more global throughout your decade there, but you were actually part of that expansion. When you're analyzing potential investments today or companies to partner with, is that also something important to you? Companies that either are global or want to become global?
- [07:12]
A
Yeah, absolutely. I think you can build amazing companies in large markets like the U.S. right. But I think from a personal standpoint, I've always had a strong affinity for global one. I wasn't born in the US Originally. Right. Was lucky enough to come here like yourself and become naturalized over time. But I also think it adds a degree of complexity for the company, but it also means that they are a whole set of complex problems you are helping solve for your customers. Right. Because you're helping helping them grow their business not just in one geography, multiple geographies help them solve whatever the complexities may be, you know, language, money movement, local payment methods, things like that in the case of Adyen. And so it's even more fun, right, to solve even more complex problems and hopefully add even more value to your customer base. So definitely always looking for great companies in general. But if they have global applicability, then I think that's one even more exciting. But also selfishly makes the opportunity even bigger.
- [08:12]
B
Absolutely. I think we are seeing more and more companies launch with a global mindset from day zero. But there's this rejection also from the investor side and in many cases justified saying like okay, you want to go global but you got to start with one market. In, in your experience, the companies that nail their global expansion, what is it that they do? Right?
- [08:43]
A
I think it's a great point. Right. So you should ideally, if there is global applicability for the problem return solver use case, I think your vision should obviously be global. But to your point, you can't get ahead of yourselves. Right. From an execution standpoint, if you try and do 20 things really well, then you sort of may become a jack of all trades but not great at one. And I think that's as much art as science. Right. How do you as a founder or core manager management team take these set of opportunities every quarter or year and how do you decide which handful you're going to prioritize and you're going to make sure you're excellent at? Right? And I think that's the key that you know, if you're not excellent, how are you standing out compared to the competitive landscape for your customers? And so you really have to excel at least a few things and then build from there. But I think that can be different things for different companies. Right? You could excel like Adyen did. In the early days it was all about digital, right? And it was about hey, how do we help you solve this problem from a global standpoint. And I think then over time they added the unified commerce capability and then they added Adyen for platforms, embedded financial products. So that was sort of the path that they went down. I think other companies have done a great job of starting in the US as an example and starting to build multi product offering and then starting to go international. So I think there again many paths that could get you to success. It's just about having that big vision but then executing really really well against it.
- [10:12]
B
Let's talk a little bit about some of the I guess verticals of Fintech where people are paying attention, where you are paying attention. One that we haven't talked about at least you and I too much in the past is stable coins. And I mean this is, this is at the core of payments disruption. You are the payments guy, I'm sure you are thinking about stable coins. What sort of role do you envision for them in the coming years?
- [10:51]
A
Would love your perspective on this as well. So, so hopefully this is a dialogue. You know, the way I've always tried to approach things and I think we do as iconic is what's the problem we're trying to solve, right? And then hey, is stablecoin the best technology or solution to solve it and or could something else do it? And I think that's where sometimes people get really excited about a thematic area, right? Be it crypto or stablecoin or AI nowadays. But the key is, you know, what are those use cases or problems that are really large and can add a ton of value? And then if we work backwards, how are these the right technologies or enablers for doing so? So to your point, I think in general, but especially the last couple of weeks, there's a lot of attention on stablecoins and I think that's how I'm trying to think through it and actually talking to a lot of companies, but also a lot of potential end users that what are these use cases? Right? And ones that often come up are cross border money movement, right? And then if we break it down, the question is, so in what corridors, right? Are those large corridors? Are they B2B, B2C? You know, which country corridors might be the problem? Is the problem technology or is the challenge really regulatory? Right. Because in a certain country, if you're wanting to hold US denominated stablecoin, one of the first questions come to my mind is can you hold a multi currency denominated bank account right in USD? If not, is that sort of one of the big hurdles you're trying to solve? And so just think through it step by step and sort of identify where these sort of unmet needs are and then sort of work backwards and say is this technology in this example stablecoin the one best suited to solve it? And things start overlapping a lot, right? Because I think people have been working on solving the cross border money movement challenge for a long time, right? There's some great companies like Transferwise that are attacking this problem. There's also revolut to some extent you also have a whole generation of new remittance companies, right, that have targeted specific corridors or use cases. And then now I think you have a large number of companies, companies that are building on top of stablecoin and blockchain in general to solve it. So then I think it's back to do we think that is a large opportunity or market to multiple people are trying to attack it? What might be the best way? Or is it a combination of those? And then what's the best team? We think that that is going to solve it.
- [13:20]
B
Yeah. I think the interesting part for me to come out of stablecoins so far is that it kind of goes against what crypto fanatics really wanted because the most successful stablecoins are backed and pegged to the dollar.
- [13:41]
A
Right.
- [13:42]
B
So it's only strengthening US dollar dominance in the world. Right. And I think there are some platforms I've seen specifically in Latin America where they're building neobanks on top of us denominated stablecoin Rails and you know, they're popular especially in, in places where inflation has been crazy. But you know, to your point, it's not everywhere, right? It's specific use cases. I'm watching it also closely. I know quite a few people building an infrastructure for stablecoins. Certainly I don't think they're going away. It's probably just a new category of payments.
- [14:24]
A
Right?
- [14:25]
B
Yeah.
- [14:25]
A
And that's why I think to your point, I try and look at the end use cases and then work backwards and say, you know, again, what are these underlying enablers that are going to help us solve it in a better way? Right. Faster, lower cost, better customer experience. And to your point, I think stablecoin or blockchain could well be part of that long term infrastructure. But sometimes it's challenging if you're just building infrastructure and not quite sure right. How to align those things. So I think definitely a lot of interesting things going on in the space and definitely trying to get smarter on it because there's a lot to learn.
- [15:02]
B
Related to this kamaran. The problem, the challenge of identity in financial services is cat and mouse game, right. With frusters against the rest of the industry trying to do things well. I mean, I think every day I either hear of a new company tackling the problem, challenges of identity or, you know, someone struggling with it. How much time do you spend thinking about the future of identity in financial services?
- [15:38]
A
I think it's even broader than financial services. Right. And I think identity is one of those interesting things where depending how you define it, identity could fit into infrastructure. Right. Where identity is a big part of, of security companies. Right. Where you're solving sort of full permissions and authentication. I think then there's identity when you get to financial services, which is those things, but you also get into sort of KYC or KYB and ongoing sort of verification or validation of your customers. So the way I look at it is there's still in this day and age, despite all the progress we've made a lot of friction in commerce.
- [16:10]
B
Right.
- [16:11]
A
When you're trying to buy something from a website or an app, if you need to authenticate yourself or if you're A small business on a platform, commerce or, or marketplace, before you can start selling, you need to go through all these different steps and nobody solved it perfectly. And I think to your point, one cat and mouse is between fraudsters and legitimate users. The other I think sort of chicken and egg issue from a payments or identity standpoint is somebody has to either be willing or a government has to play this central role. Right? Where you know, if I'm going to Kyc Miguel, okay, I've done it once, I now have this information. Everyone else who wants to do it is going to have to go through all the same steps. So Miguel has to go through it 10 times. Could you get a central body that is able to say I've already done it once and I can passport it to you, right. And then same let's say for whatever reason something gets triggered annually or every three years when I need to ask you to update, you know, your Social Security number or your passport copy today, you have to do it across multiple entities, right? Whether if you're a consumer or small business, again, could we send centralize those aspects? And I think some of that gets into again, who is that entity? Is it going to have to be government or government or can a private entity take on that responsibility? Will everyone else trust them and how do you do it in a way that's compliant with data privacy, which also varies in different parts of the world.
- [17:37]
B
So you think it's probably going to be country by country issue, where in some cases some countries is going to be maybe a private sector entity being the centralizing agent and then others being at the government level.
- [17:55]
A
I think that's what you're seeing today, right? I think you're seeing in parts of the world where the government is stepping in like India or Pakistan or parts of Eastern Europe and issuing this unique sort of ID card and on the back of it then saying, hey, if you want to authenticate against that, right. Or verify against that, then you're pinging directly or through somebody, the government or the central repository. Anyway, I think in other cases like the U.S. you're seeing that it is private entities, right? I use clear all the time and I think it's fantastic. And it's expanding to more and more places. Right. And there are a few other entities. So I think it is evolving over time. Maybe it becomes one flavor, but today it's multiple. And so there's probably still value in somebody sort of concatenating all of those. So at least if I am a global offering, you can give me Access to all of those. But that's more of a gateway play over time. How can you add even more value to it potentially?
- [18:49]
B
Yeah, we, we just had our summit for Gilgamesh Ventures and, and the CTO of Clear joined us on stage and one of the main things he talked about is exactly that, it's portability of identity. Right. But you know, hey, they also have the challenge that biometrics, it could get to a point where current standard is easily hacked with a deep fake or something. So, you know, they are also being challenged.
- [19:20]
A
And look, I think back to your point, with modern technology and any new technology, this is always the case, right? AI is a great example where I think there are a lot of potential benefits, but there's also this challenge that fraudsters will use AI to hack your my likeness and voice and other aspects. So it is definitely a constant challenge.
- [19:40]
B
Speaking of AI, Kamaran, are there, other than identity, are there areas in financial services where you're really starting to see the potential of AI?
- [19:55]
A
I think it's definitely early days, right. I think everyone is experimenting and testing things. I think financial services has always been at the forefront of using whatever term. I think historically we used to call it big data, right? Then it became machine learning and now it's probably AI. I think a lot of what financial services is historically done is predictive analysis, right. We've historically taken historic data and said how can I use it to help me with risk and fraud or other things. But if you fast forward, I think in theory we should be able to use AI to make better decisions and create more personalized experiences for consumers. Right. So everything from credit risk and underwriting to risk and fraud to compliance, but also recommendations, right. So I don't know if we take wealth management as an example, we should be able to use AI to offer you a very curated recommendation or set of recommendations that today either you have to be a sophisticated investor yourself or you need a human being to help you. And it's not necessarily replacing that human, but it's just making them even more productive. Right. In customizing this for you and. Or some people will say it's sort of going to go down this agentic path where it will replace that person. So. But I think it's definitely still fairly early days, but obviously a ton of investment and testing going on as you talk to folks in the industry.
- [21:20]
B
So before we started recording, I was telling you, Kamran, that I'm starting to see a bit of a shift. Smells a little bit differently in the air, much more positively for fintech, at least at the mainstream level, looks like we're getting a few IPOs Q1 of next year. Klarna Chime I'm sure there's more. I've heard that from very senior investment bankers that there's about a hundred to two hundred tech companies that have filed confidentially. This is not just fintech, but tech. And they can keep extending the filing, but they're trying to be ready for when the market is actually open. What do you envision for FinTech and in the coming months and specifically 2025 where it's around the corner?
- [22:09]
A
Yeah, I think as you and I discussed, we're both sort of fintech geeks and pretty deeply versed, so we may be biased. But that being said, yeah, I think somebody in the industry put it well. They said, hey, for those people who are saying, you know, nothing exciting is happening in fintech, if you look at your personal life, do you feel like you are having a wow experience as a consumer in all of your fintech interactions? Right. Whether it's your bank, your wealth management, your insurance, your other capabilities and the same question, small business. And if you don't feel like that's the case, which I don't, then that means there is a ton of opportunity still ahead for people to innovate and make life better. So I think long term, I continue to be very bullish because I think there's still a lot of friction in all these experiences. Two, I think people sometimes underestimate how long things take. Right. Because in the end of the last decade or beginning part of this decade, fintech was so hot, right. And everyone was wanting to invest in it. But you know, when I joined PayPal in 2000, 2004, when we would go to talk to large financial institutions around the world about partnering with them, we used to have to spend the first half hour educating them on what PayPal was and why we were not risky and why we were really doing the right things on the compliance side and why they should feel comfortable taking us on as a customer. Right. And you know, similarly, Adyen has had a ton of success, but Adyen started way back in 2006. And so to your point, if you look at, I think some of the fintech companies that are doing well and have scaled, they've been around for quite a while. Right. I think there was an article today that Klarna filed potentially, I think Chime has in the recent past, I think examples in Europe of companies doing well are Monzo and Revolut. So I Think there is a big wave of really scaled fintechs, but they've been at it for quite a while and I think there's also this sort of still quite a lot of friction in consumer and small business fintech related experiences that I think hopefully either companies that exist today or new companies that are getting formed will help solve. So that's why I'm quite bullish not just about next year, but about the whole fintech space for the coming years.
- [24:17]
B
So assuming there's a wave of fintech IPOs coming, whether it is a small or big wave, you know, we'll see. Take us through the IPO process, right? For, for the companies going through it, what is important and what do those companies have to keep in mind the leadership throughout that process. It's a highly risky and complicated process.
- [24:42]
A
I think it goes back to trying to on the right long term aspects. Right. If you're a founder, you started this company not with the goal in mind of going to an ipo. You started it because you got really passionate about some problem or some unmet need that you thought you were uniquely positioned to solve and would add value to your customers. And then of course, as a byproduct, create a lot of value, value, right. For investors and employees. And I think that should still be the goal, right of hey, this is a milestone or a step in the process. Hopefully you're still very bullish about the future and the untapped growth that is still ahead. And how do you sort of work backwards from there and manage this process as again a step in time rather than an end all, be all? I think absolutely. You know, the founders, the team, team should be proud of getting to a milestone like this. But ultimately you always have to be looking for that long term because you're going to hopefully welcome a new set of investors, right? Public market investors, consumers. And you should still want to paint that vision to them of why should they invest today because there's a lot of potential in the future and while you're the right team to keep running and growing this business and delivering value. So I think that would be my 2 cents of definitely important milestone, definitely something to be proud of, but also important not to get too caught up in it and lose sight of why you originally started things. And hopefully you have many ambitions for the coming years or decades as well.
- [26:23]
B
Speaking of great leaders, I mean you've worked with great CEOs like Peter from Adyen, but also just dozens of others around the industry that you have personally worked with, interacted with you know very well. In your opinion and what makes them special?
- [26:42]
A
It's interesting because like all human beings, everyone has their own unique personality. And so it is often hard to sort of crystallize down to that handful of things. But I think it goes back to what we were just discussing. I think typically they get really excited about or irritated about a particular problem and they become somewhat infatuated or maniacal about solving that. Right. And they're willing to break through many obstacles. Right. And many people telling them that it's not possible or not worth it and really have this sort of long term vision in mind. I think they're able to inspire others with that vision. Right. And bring other great leaders on board with them. Because in the end I feel strongly that, you know, the companies that succeed, it's often, yes, there's a founder or set of founders that started it, but the reason they get to sort of long lasting and critical success is because they were able to build a great team that truly worked together in a very complementary. And over time, as you scale, it becomes less about one individual and becomes about sort of that complementary core. So those are sort of the two or three things that I've seen. Peter did really well and other great leaders do really well. But I should call this out. And by default, therefore, they are very humble. Right. They often talk about the team and how that's how they got to success. And some of them don't, but most of them are very humble and talk about the we and not the I. Right.
- [28:09]
B
I and Kamaran, when it comes to company building, you were obviously a great complement to Peter and to all the other CEOs that you work with. What do you say made you special? What was kind of your secret weapon?
- [28:25]
A
It's a good question. And as I said, I think sometimes it comes down to how are you complimentary as a team to each other. And so obviously it wasn't just Peter and I. There were a lot of great people there. Right. Ingo, who is now the co CEO, was the CFO at that. Quine Roulant is the chief commercial officer. Both of them were there ideally no longer than I was. It's definitely a team environment. But you know, what I try and do, as I said, is be very pragmatic and take emotion out of it. And back to some of our examples of hey, what's the problem we're trying to solve. How do we sort of prioritize the two or three tough things at a time, not 10, but keep this running list going and Then how do I make sure we're successful in these two or three? Because I think, you know, in Silicon Valley and many successful companies, there's this excitement about the shiny new options object and everyone wants to work on the next cool thing. But you usually have promised existing customers that you worked on something today. And if you sort of say, well, I launched it and move on, that doesn't add value to anyone. Right? So as part of my role as CEO, one of the things I was responsible for was product. And one of the things we talked about is to become a great product manager. You ideally have gone through every part of the life cycle. So you've launched some cool new thing, right? And you get it live after a few weeks, months, years here. But then you have to get customers on it and of course there'll be feedback and how do you iterate? And then, you know, you go on and then scale it and then at some point, unfortunately. But I think a great product leader has sunset a product because you also have to recognize if you adding new things and you never sunset anything, you're creating a lot of complexity and a lot of clutter. Right. Or analogy Peter used was if you keep putting things in your fridge and you never clean it, what do you think is going to happen? Right? And so I don't think it's, it's often fun to sunset a product right to some customer is on it. It's painful, you know, migrations, etc. But you know, having somebody who's done every part of the spectrum is invaluable. And again, that's what I would often try to do. Some parts of the job were less fun than others, but you always learn in doing it and ultimately should be about adding value to your end customers and of course having fun while you're doing it. But there's some more fun parts and there's some more must do parts.
- [30:38]
B
Yeah. On the front of prioritization, an exercise that I, I think is very good. Good is you, you get a team together and you ask everyone to write down their top 10 priorities and then ask them to kill the bottom five and then ask them to kill the next three and then ask them to kill the remain one of the remaining two and they're left with just one. It's like, okay, that's what you need to focus on because if you have temporary, you have no priority.
- [31:06]
A
No, I fully agree and I think that's one of the challenges is the scaling, Miguel. Right. So I think to your point, when you're a small team. I'm making this up a 10. You that exercise and it's a lot faster and you have more discipline in sticking to it because you're all sitting in one room where you know each other well and if you don't stick to it, you call each other out really quickly. When you become thousands of people across multiple geographies and products and industry verticals, even though you do what you said and you share it with the whole company, it just gets harder to enforce on a day to day basis. Right. Because it isn't one you, you've added a whole spectrum, as I said, of countries and products and features and you have to keep supporting those and growing those, let alone the new things. And I think that's the other common thing I found. All successful companies as they scale the sheer size and order of magnitude does just make it more complex. Even though at its heart is that it is as simple as you said.
- [32:03]
B
Karan, before we go, is there a book book that you find yourself either rereading often or recommending? Doesn't have to be a business book. Could be fiction, could be business, whatever, whatever you want.
- [32:18]
A
Not really. So I'll be honest. I used to be an avid reader and unfortunately I found over time that my attention span shrank. Maybe it's the nature of today and social media and stuff. So I've been reading mainly fiction, but less often going back to existing things too. I've honestly also found that I learn a lot more better through talking with really smart people than reading books. So that is one of the things I do try and do of make sure I'm talking to as many people out there as possible. Right. Getting to know new people and learn from them. And, and also I think something that maybe we're struggling with as the country and as as the globe is often seeking people who have different opinions. Right. And trying to learn from them and their perspective and not thinking we're the smartest people in the room. So that is something that I do spend a fair amount of time trying to take the blockchain example, there's a lot of people out there who know a lot more about Stablecoin and Blockchain than I do. And so definitely trying to learn from them and trying to make sure I'm talking to people who are very bullish and people who are the naysayers. And how do I then form my own opinion based on that announcement? Nation.
- [33:28]
B
Yeah, yeah. I mean, listen, that's why I do the podcast because I get to talk to a lot of interesting people like you.
- [33:34]
A
You're in a great position.
- [33:37]
B
Karam thank you again. Although we did this remotely, I look forward to our next walk around Palo Alto. Next time in California.
- [33:46]
A
Looking forward to it. And or in New York next time I'm there.
- [33:50]
B
Absolutely. Thank you. K Foreign. Thanks for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed this great episode with Camran partner at Iconic Growth. If you want more interviews, make sure to subscribe, follow and leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your shows. It helps and truly means a lot. A lot. And if you have any suggestions or thoughts about the show, just drop me a line on Twitter or LinkedIn. Signing off till next week. I'm your host, Miguel Almasa. The Fintech Leaders podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered financial or investment advice.