Bonus Episode: Brittany with Special Guest Anna Sale | 7

Summary

Fire Escape: Bonus Episode - Brittany with Special Guest Anna Sale

Released on February 19, 2025, by Wondery

---

Introduction

In this bonus episode of Fire Escape, host Anna Sussman delves deeper into the harrowing yet inspiring story of Brittany Davies, an incarcerated firefighter whose life has been profoundly shaped by both tragedy and resilience. Joining her in the studio is Anna Sale, the acclaimed host of the podcast Death, Sex and Money, to discuss Brittany's journey, the complexities of motherhood amid incarceration, and the broader implications of the series' narratives.

---

Brittany Davies’ Traumatic Beginnings

Brittany Davies’ story is one of survival and transformation. From a young age, Brittany experienced the devastating effects of fire. At nine years old, she survived a catastrophic house fire that left her mother, Lori Bergeson, grappling with the uncertainty of her children's survival.

Brittany Davies [07:07]: "I was dead. But it was two firefighters that pulled me out and saved me."

The fire not only scarred Brittany physically—resulting in respiratory issues and a raspy voice—but also left deep psychological wounds. The memories of darkness during her 27 days in a coma and the subsequent recovery period were harrowing.

Brittany Davies [11:17]: "I was dead in that house fire. But it was two firefighters that pulled me out and saved me."

---

A Life Shattered by Accident and Incarceration

Years later, Brittany’s life took another tragic turn when she caused a fatal car crash, leading to her conviction for vehicular manslaughter—a charge that forever altered her life and separated her from her young son, Jameson.

Brittany Davies [14:20]: "I was pulling into a parking lot, and a motorcyclist T-boned my car. He was speeding up a hill and he hit the side of my car."

The accident not only resulted in her incarceration but also forced Brittany to endure the anguish of being separated from Jameson, who was placed in the custody of his father during her imprisonment.

Brittany Davies [17:47]: "So I got to prison, and I was terrified. I would wake up so many times and be looking at a concrete wall and be like, what happened?"

---

Life Inside: Coping with Incarceration

Brittany's time in prison was marked by intense fear and trauma, exacerbated by the harsh conditions and violent policing she faced. Her previous experiences with fire-related trauma resurfaced, making her time in prison even more unbearable.

Brittany Davies [18:09]: "There was a lockdown where they'd spray gas, and I was trying to say, 'I can't breathe.'"

Despite these challenges, Brittany maintained a connection with Jameson through weekly letters, carefully duplicating each message to preserve her personal records.

Brittany Davies [18:13]: "Every single week, I would write Jameson a letter, and I would make two of each of the letters."

---

Becoming an Incarcerated Firefighter

Brittany’s life took an unexpected turn when she was selected to join an all-female crew of incarcerated firefighters. This opportunity allowed her to channel her past trauma into a role that symbolized redemption and service.

Brittany Davies [19:05]: "Maybe it's just, for Brittany, the alternative of not having a job that gets you out of the environment of the prison."

Initially hesitant due to her fear of fire—a traumatic reminder of her childhood—Brittany found a way to overcome her fears. Her participation in firefighting missions provided her with a sense of purpose and a pathway to reclaiming control over her life.

Brittany Davies [20:33]: "Everybody dies. Nobody's getting out of here alive. That's the reality of it. That's the bottom line."

---

Reuniting with Family: A Bittersweet Victory

After serving three years of her six-year sentence, Brittany was granted custody of her son Jameson. Their reunion was emotional and marked by a sense of hope and renewal.

Brittany Davies [24:34]: "He was so excited, like fighting something that could destroy the world... I was really happy, you know."

Upon her release, Brittany reunited with her family in a heartfelt moment, symbolizing the culmination of her arduous journey through trauma, loss, and redemption.

Brittany Davies [25:07]: "All I was thinking about for probably two years leading up to that exit date was having a milkshake."

---

In-Depth Conversation with Anna Sale

Anna Sale shares her perspectives on Brittany’s story and the overarching themes of the Fire Escape series, highlighting the humanization of incarcerated individuals and the systemic challenges of maintaining familial bonds.

Anna Sale [27:31]: "The impact on her whole family and in particular the impact on her son really stuck with me."

She emphasizes the importance of portraying the nuanced realities of incarceration, moving beyond stereotypes to reveal the shared humanity of those affected.

Anna Sale [29:40]: "When people are incarcerated, the state takes parents away from their kids... it just feels so science fictiony to me."

The conversation also touches on the ethical dilemmas presented by programs like the incarcerated firefighter crew, questioning the carceral system's role in offering such opportunities as both a lifeline and a complicit mechanism of control.

Anna Sale [30:08]: "For Brittany, the alternative of not having a job that gets you out of the environment of the prison was enough to sort of..."

---

Reflections on Systemic Issues and Personal Stories

The dialogue between Anna Sussman and Anna Sale extends to broader critiques of the prison system, particularly how it handles family connections and rehabilitation opportunities. They discuss the lack of adequate programs to sustain familial bonds and the problematic nature of offering roles like firefighting as a means of improvement within the system.

Anna Sale [32:21]: "There's no intentional programming or strategizing for how to maintain the bond or connection between parents or children."

They contemplate the duality of such programs, which provide dignity and purpose while also potentially masking systemic failures and the inherent costs of incarceration on individuals and their families.

---

Conclusion

This bonus episode of Fire Escape offers a profound exploration of Brittany Davies' life, highlighting the intersection of personal tragedy, systemic challenges, and the quest for redemption. Through intimate storytelling and critical dialogue, Anna Sussman and Anna Sale shed light on the human aspects of incarceration and the complex pathways to healing and reconnection. As listeners, we are invited to reflect on the broader implications of these narratives and the urgent need for compassionate and effective approaches to justice and rehabilitation.

---

To explore more stories like Brittany’s, follow Fire Escape on the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or other major podcast platforms. For exclusive bonus episodes, subscribe to Wondery+ and start your free trial today.

Transcript

[Anna Sussman]

Wondry subscribers can bind all episodes of Fire Escape early and ad free. Right now, join Wondri in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

[Brittany Davies]

Snap Studio.

[Anna Sussman]

From Wondry and Snap Studios at kqed, I'm Anna Sussman and this is Fire Escape Bonus episode one. Brittany. When we were creating this series, one of the most difficult things we encountered was where and how much to talk directly about the victim of Amica's vehicular manslaughter. It's hard to know how much was the respectful amount.

[Anna Sale]

Did you want to reach out to them?

[Amica]

Yeah, I mean, I think I did. I did want to reach out. I wouldn't have known what to say, but I did want to reach out, but I was not allowed to contact the family and that, you know, when I was released there, it was really clear that that was part of my, like, conditions that I signed. So, yeah, there was definitely, like a no contact and. Yeah, and I'm actually really, like, afraid of them being harmed in any way by, like, any, like, all of the work. I'm in public in a lot of spaces talking about things now. And I still, you know, Amica now.

[Anna Sussman]

Works doing pretty high profile criminal justice reform. She speaks on panels and she's in the news.

[Amica]

Um, one of the first things I went to when I got home, like, in this social justice world was like a crime victim thing, and I sat next to women whose partners had been killed by people, and I was the perpetrator on the panel and they were the victims. Right. And we did this kind of crime survivor thing. And that dynamic is thick and, like, deep. And that's how I move in commitment. Right. Is that always to work with survivors of crime and people that have harmed.

[Anna Sale]

Do you feel like on that panel, like, with this idea, I don't know.

[Anna Sussman]

On that panel, to me, there's a difference between manslaughter and murder.

[Anna Sale]

There's a difference between an accident and something that's premeditated. Am I wrong in that? Am I.

[Anna Sussman]

To my mind, there's a difference between.

[Anna Sale]

Stabbing somebody, making a choice. Really?

[Amica]

Yeah, because.

[Anna Sussman]

Really?

[Amica]

Yeah. Because I know people that I love deeply that in two seconds stab somebody in a stupid fight or like, I don't see them so differently. I know maybe the rest of the world might, but maybe it's not that.

[Anna Sale]

I'm being overly merciful on you, it's that I'm being overly harsh on them. Right. Yeah, that's fine.

[Amica]

And that always bothered me the whole time during my incarceration too, being told you don't belong here. Or like, you know, like, you know.

[Anna Sale]

Oh, you know, it was an accident.

[Amica]

Yeah, like everybody here was an accident, y'all. Like everybody here. I mean, whether it was some stupid moment of a theft or whether you killed your partner that abused you, like all of it was a split second decision that turn people's lives upside down. Like, I cannot separate myself from those people because, like, I know the lead up and what my mind was, what my mind was going through that led up to my crime. And I can guarantee you that all of our stories are pretty similar.

[Anna Sussman]

So in the next episodes, we're going to bring you the stories of four more incarcerated firefighters. Listening to Amica's story, it's easy to think that it's one woman who messed up. But something else starts to emerge when we put together a whole chorus of these lives. So first up is the story of Brittany Davies and her family. She was also a mother, so when she went to prison, there was also this countdown of sorts for her whole family. And listening with me today in the studio is Anna Sale, host of the podcast Death, Sex and Money. Welcome, Anna.

[Lori Bergeson]

Hi.

[Anna Sale]

Thanks for having me.

[Anna Sussman]

So we're going to listen to Britney's story together and afterwards talk about motherhood and incarceration and telling these stories. Does that sound good?

[Anna Sale]

Sounds great.

[Ashley Flowers]

Creating really great retail experiences is tough, especially with multiple stores, teams of staff, fulfillment centers, separate workflows. It's a lot. But with Shopify Point of Sale, you can do it all without complexity. And let's face it, acquiring new customers is expensive. With Shopify pos, you can keep shoppers coming back with personalized experiences and first party data that give marketing teams a competitive edge. In fact, it's proven based on a report from EY, businesses on Shopify POS see real results like 22% better total cost of ownership and benefits equivalent to an 8.9% uplift in sales on average relative to the market set surveyed. Want more? Check [e-mail] wondery all lowercase. And learn how to create the best retail experiences without complexity. Shopify.com Wondery if you've ever considered a.

[Unknown]

Career as a licensed funeral director, now's your chance. Find Mortuary College's online associate degree program can be completed in just two years. The curriculum focuses on all aspects of funeral service, including the psychology, science and business requirements of the profession. Being a funeral director is ultimately about human services helping people, specifically helping the living as they navigate the grieving process. FMC terms begin four times per year in February, May, August, and November, so you don't have to wait to begin your education. Plus, financial aid is available to those who qualify to attend a virtual open house, please visit their website at www.andrsvp for the date that best fits your schedule. That's www.fmc.edu. use promo code Wondery.

[Brittany Davies]

Like nobody expected this. I went to school. I graduated with honors. I was in college. I work full time.

[Anna Sussman]

Brittany's story begins with a fire and a mother facing the sudden, permanent loss of her children.

[Brittany Davies]

When I was nine, my house burned down. My Christmas tree caught fire on January 2, 1999. It was in the middle of fourth grade. It was in Minnesota, in the middle of winter. It was me and my brother, and my mom's husband at the time was there, but he couldn't get me out of the house. So when the firefighters found me in the house, I was unconscious.

[Lori Bergeson]

I'm Lori Bergeson. I'm Brittany's mother. I got a phone call at work, and somebody was screaming on my phone saying, your house is burning down. The kids are in it, and they can't get it out. Click. And I was like, this is a joke. This isn't even funny.

[Anna Sussman]

Until this moment, Brittany's mom, Lori, had lived with her family in what was a somewhat predictable household. She'd get her kids, Brittany and Robbie, ready for school, go to work, come home after. There were kids. And then she got a call at the office that her house was on fire. And at first she thought it was a prank.

[Lori Bergeson]

And then I was like, well, why would somebody do that? And I basically broke down. I was shaking hysterically. I was screaming in the middle of my office. By that time, news reporters had already been on the scene, and we had TV screens all up in our office, and There was over 50 firefighters there. I had to go back in three times. There was a propane tank on the patio which was going to blow out the back door, and the whole block. By the time I had gotten to the house, they were putting out the fire. And I kept saying, where are the kids? Where are the kids? And they're like, the kids have been taken to the hospital. And then I was like, are they burnt? Are they alive? Are they what? I jumped in the car, I went down to hcmc, and both of them were all hooked up on life support, on the breathing machines, because they weren't breathing on their own. So they were side by side in the ICU together on life support. The doctors wanted to try to get them to heal and to Remove the soot, and they would stick tubing down her throat and pull out just chunks of soot. They'd wipe her off, and she'd just turn black again. She was clinically dead when they brought her out of the house. She had no heartbeat, no pulse, no vitals. I was numb. I mean, I remember the TV interviews. When the TV people came to interview me. I was like a zombie. That's a devastation and not knowing if your kids are going to be okay.

[Anna Sussman]

She was told the first few days were critical. And those first days passed with no change for Robbie or Brittany. And then two weeks went by.

[Lori Bergeson]

They said that she had no brain waves during the. They would do brain tests on her while we were in the hospital. And the doctors would keep saying, there's nothing.

[Anna Sussman]

Lori was told to start to accept the idea that she would have to take the kids off life support.

[Lori Bergeson]

And so I lived with that. I never left the hospital. Not one day. Not one day. I stayed there the entire time.

[Anna Sussman]

Brittany and Robbie stayed on breathing tubes in the ICU for three weeks. And then four weeks. Lori waited in their room. There was another child in there.

[Lori Bergeson]

There was a boy by the name of Cole that was 9 years old, and he had been in a snowmobiling accident, and he was in a coma.

[Anna Sussman]

Lori and Cole's mom would sit in their kid's shared hospital room night after night.

[Lori Bergeson]

We became very close. So it was one morning at 3. It was about 3, 3:30 in the morning. She's like, I gotta go to bed. I go, okay, I'll let you know if anything happens. I was sitting there talking to the nurses, the ICU nurses, and they were over with Cole doing the feet test. They run these things up your feet and say, if you can feel us, you know, wiggle your toes. They would do it every night, and Cole never moved. And this night, Cole started to move. And then Robbie started pulling on his tubing to pull it out and saying, mama, Mama.

[Anna Sussman]

And then Brittany started to move.

[Lori Bergeson]

And then she started flailing around in the bed, grabbing at her tubing. It was like something was in that room that all three kids woke up at the same time out of their unconsciousness. You can't describe it. I mean, you know when you think you're gonna lose your kids and then they wake up.

[Anna Sussman]

When Brittany woke up, all she remembered from those 27 days was darkness.

[Brittany Davies]

I'm afraid of death. Like, I don't like it. I don't like to talk about it. I don't like to think about it. Because for me, when I died, it was black. It was nothing. I did not go anywhere. I did not see anything. I did not do anything. It was like I went to bed that night and I woke up weeks later not having a clue what. What happened. They'd say, tell me. Oh, you were dead. Okay, well, that's scary because that's not what I want for eternity.

[Lori Bergeson]

When she finally did wake up, she couldn't talk, she couldn't read, she couldn't write. She didn't know what numbers were. She didn't know anything.

[Brittany Davies]

I had to learn how to walk, like, at 9, you know, I remember, like, using those side, like, rails, trying to figure that out. I had to be on a nebulizer. My cough that I have is from my house fire. It's not like I'm not sick at all or like, I'm not a smoker. That's why my voice is kind of raspy, is from my house fire. So it damaged, like, my. My lungs, my vocal cords. But, like, I'm still here, you know, Like, I should have been dead in that fire. I was dead in my house fire. I was like, I was dead. But it was two firefighters that pulled me out and saved me. And one of the only reasons why I made it through that house fire is because the fire department was like, what, a minute away.

[Lori Bergeson]

The firefighters went to therapy for over a year after our house burnt down. They were so, you know, distraught because they couldn't get her out of the house. They had to go back in three times, couldn't find her.

[Brittany Davies]

I think about that house fire in regards to Jameson every year around the anniversary of my fire. Like, wow. Like, what that would mean to me to have that happen to my 9 year old right now. It would just turn my world upside down. But at the same time, I feel like I've walked a different road and I have been taken away from my child for an extended period of time. The last time that I saw Jamison, I dropped him off at daycare. I gave him a hug. I gave him a kiss. I said, I'll see you later, bub. And then I did not see him for over three years.

[Anna Sussman]

As a mom, Brittany knew, of course, especially from her fire, that nothing was guaranteed. She also never thought she would lose her own son, Jameson. But then her accident came out of nowhere.

[Brittany Davies]

The accident. I got off work and I went and had a few drinks, and I was pulling into a parking lot, and a motorcyclist T boned my car. He was speeding up a hill and he hit the side of my car. So when the accident happened, the initial impact, I was stunned, and my car kind of just coasted down this little hill and I pulled into a parking lot.

[Anna Sussman]

The motorcyclist was alive but injured.

[Brittany Davies]

I looked at the person, they were holding their leg. When I called 911, I walked back down to my car, scared. I sat in my seat thinking that my life was basically over at that point, not knowing really what was gonna go on. I had a man come up to me, sitting in my car and start filming me and, like, filming my car and trying to stick his hand in my window. And I pushed his hand away from me. I said, what are you doing, dude? And he's like, oh, I thought you were gonna run. I thought you were gonna run. I'm just getting you on camera. And I was like, I'm literally sitting here crying. Please leave me alone. Like, I'm obviously not going anywhere. And I'm trying to get ahold of somebody out here to pick up my son because he's in daycare. That's all I was thinking about.

[Anna Sussman]

Brittany was taken straight to jail.

[Brittany Davies]

I was sentenced to six years with 85% and a strikeable offense. So it was a serious, violent felony. That's what it's categorized as because I was driving.

[Unknown]

Calling all dog owners. Your furry friend deserves top notch nourishment. And Ollie delivers the clean, fresh nutrition your dog needs in five flavors. They'll absolutely flip over. Ollie is made in US Kitchens with ingredients carefully sourced from trusted growers and producers around the world, with absolutely no harmful fillers or preservatives with protein. First recipes like fresh beef with sweet potatoes, fresh turkey with blueberries, or fresh lamb with cranberries, you might start thinking, dang, my dog eats better than I do. And that's probably true when it comes to Ollie. Give your pup a fresh start this new year by letting them taste test a personalized meal plan with ollie. Head to ollie.com wondery tell them all about your dog and use code wondery to get 60% off your first box of meals when you subscribe today. Plus, they offer a clean bowl guarantee on the first box, so if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get that's O l l I e.com wondery and enter code wondery to get 60% off your first box. Start your dog's new year off right with Ollie. Start your dog's new year off right with Ollie.

[Ashley Flowers]

Hi, I'm Ashley Flowers, and if you're like me and grew up watching America's most wanted and reading Nancy Drew, then, hi, you're a crime junkie. And I bet that passion for solving mysteries never went away, which is why we've assembled a team of reporters to dig deep into all the cases we still obsess over. Each Monday, my best friend Britt and I will bring you a case that you won't be able to stop thinking and talking about. So join us by listening to Crime Junkie, wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Brittany Davies]

So I got to prison, and I was terrified. I would wake up so many times and, like, be looking at a concrete wall and be like, what happened? How did this happen? I work full time. I'm raising a child on my own. Like, what happened is really all I could think in my mind.

[Anna Sussman]

Jameson's dad got custody of him once she was locked up.

[Brittany Davies]

Every single week, I would write Jameson a letter, and I would make two of each of the letters. So I saved one for, like, my files, and then I would mail one to him.

[Anna Sussman]

Her first few months in prison, Brittany absolutely couldn't cope with being away from him or with the guards, the bars, the violent policing. She was just living in a state of complete panic.

[Brittany Davies]

I mean, there was, like, lockdowns where they'd come. They'd, like, spray gas, and you'd be, like, in your room. It would be, like, seeping under the door, and, like, you can't breathe, and you're trying to, like, block it out, and you're telling them, like, I can't breathe. I can't breathe. Like, you're just coughing and coughing.

[Anna Sussman]

She still had huge trauma from the fire. She barely survived as a child, and prison seemed to aggravate that trauma. She was trapped. And then these two experiences, fire and prison, came together.

[Brittany Davies]

It was probably maybe a month or two months after I had been there. Well, they came and interviewed me on a yard, and they came with Chief Diaz. I don't know how they got my name. I don't know how they got my information. I didn't send a request. I didn't even know about the firehouse. I told fire Chief Diaz, like, oh, it would be so crazy if I came over to the firehouse, because I was in a house fire. And I was like. And they're like, what? And then I kind of told them the story about the house fire. And then they're like, you're like, you're for sure. Bringing you over. I mean, I just, like, you know, as they say, like, everything happens for a reason. I remember calling my mom and just thinking, like, how cool it would be to be on the other end of that.

[Lori Bergeson]

She was pretty excited about it. I said, wow, okay, you're gonna be a firefighter, okay?

[Brittany Davies]

But I was kind of scared too, because, you know, I didn't even know. You don't know. I don't know. You don't know what a fire department does. It was like a mind trip, really, because there's no way in my life outside of what happened that I would be like, hmm, I'd like to be a firefighter. I just don't like danger that much. Like, it really takes a lot to be running into an emergency scene as everybody's running out.

[Anna Sussman]

Because of Britney's experience with death, she was really not interested in tempting it. But she didn't have a choice.

[Anna Sale]

She was a firefighter.

[Brittany Davies]

I think I just have to accept it. Like, everybody dies. Nobody's getting out of here alive. That's the reality of it. That's the bottom line. It makes me feel capable of, like, overcoming things. In the morning, we had, like, a little prayer circle that we would come out to early and read inspirational books or stuff like that. And then say, like, a little prayer before the start of our day at 8. Then our day would start at 8, and we'd have different things to do each day.

[Anna Sussman]

Brittany quickly figured out that lives depended on her not being afraid. She actually kind of liked being vigilant all the time.

[Brittany Davies]

I started to sleep with an earplug only in one ear. So, like, we had, like, a box in the corner. It would have been, like, right there. That would go off whenever we'd get a call. Like, be doo be doo be doo. And then it'd be like, engine five, engine three, engine da da da. Motor vehicle accident, highway 99, cross a 101, you know, 1059, bloop. It didn't matter what you were doing. You were showering, using the bathroom, dead asleep outside, running laps, working out, whatever you're doing, your job, whatever you're doing.

[Anna Sussman]

And if it was a medical emergency.

[Anna Sale]

Or even a car accident, she'd be.

[Anna Sussman]

On it with her head fully in the game. But if it was a house fire.

[Brittany Davies]

Any structure fire, I would think it just. I would just think about my house. Like, what if there were kids there that would be like, my house.

[Anna Sussman]

She'd call her mom collect from the payphone after she responded to a house fire, and they'd both process what had happened to them again.

[Brittany Davies]

I just thought of how challenging it must have been to have not only one, but two children and Lose your whole house, lose everything, and not know if your children are going to make it. It felt devastating to me because there's nothing worse that you can do to me than to take me away from my child. But at the same time, again, I have been taken away from my child.

[Jameson]

At the time, I wasn't really able to see my mom much. Like, I remember I'd cry every single night, almost all night long that I couldn't be with my mom. When I heard she was a firefighter, I was really shocked by it. Cause, like, it's the thing that people look up to. Little kids look up to be a firefighter. They think it's such a cool job, like, you're saving lives, putting out fires. I was very proud, like, fighting something that could destroy the world. Wildfires are a huge problem because of global warming. And I also had a lot of questions. I would wonder, like, how prisoners are allowed. Cause, like, is it, like, prisoners who don't have big crimes? Or, like, I was just asking those types of questions. I never thought my mom would be, like, a firefighter or like a paramedic or like a cop or something like that, because those are the three main things people look up, what little kids look up to be.

[Anna Sussman]

Three years into her sentence, Brittany's mom got custody of Jameson.

[Brittany Davies]

When my mom got custody of my son, I knew that I was going to see him, so she was going to bring him to the prison for me. I didn't know if he was going to remember me or, you know, want to see me or, like, hug me or anything.

[Jameson]

The moment that I saw my mom, I was like, I haven't seen her in so long. She looked so different from the last time I saw her. She was even a little bit taller, which was surprising considering she's an adult.

[Brittany Davies]

You know, he, like, looked to the side and he saw me, and then he kind of looked back, and then he looked at me again, and his eyes got so big, and he says, mom, Mom. And he runs up to me and just jumps into my arms. It was like, one of the greatest feelings besides birthing my child that I've ever felt in my life.

[Anna Sussman]

When Brittany was released from prison in the fire station, her mom and Jamison came to get her.

[Brittany Davies]

All I was thinking about for probably two years leading up to that exit date was having a milkshake. And so when they picked me up from the prison, we went over to this gas station that was right there. And it had a food place of some sort attached to it. And I got a Milkshake.

[Jameson]

We did go to pick her up at prison and then we had a blast on the car ride. We listened to some music and we stopped at a gas station, got some gas station food. I was excited. Like, my mom gets to be here. Like she gets to come. Like, I wasn't thinking of anything bad. I can't remember a single bad thing on that day. It's always interesting to just see how far my life has gone. So many things, you know, I don't know if this is the right word. I've been doing speech, I think rejoiced. I think that's the word for it. I just felt really happy, you know, it was crazy.

[Unknown]

You know that ding means you're going somewhere exciting. But do you know what this one means? It's the sound you hear when learning a new language with Babbel. Babbel's quick 10 minute lessons, handcrafted by over 200 language experts, get you to begin speaking your new language in three weeks or whatever pace you choose. Let's get more of you talking in a new language. Babbel is gifting our listeners 60% off [e-mail] truecrime get up to 60% [e-mail] trueCrime spelled B-A-B-B-E-L.com truecrime babbel.com truecrime rules and restrictions may apply.

[Anna Sussman]

That was Brittany Davies and her son Jameson. Listening with me today to their story is Anna Sale, host of the podcast Death, Sex and Money from a Slate. Her show explores the big questions and hard choices that are often left out of polite conversation. Anna, what did you think of the story?

[Anna Sale]

Oh, man. The way we get to meet Brittany and we get to meet her son and we get to really have a sense of her family. The impact on her whole family and in particular the impact on her son really stuck with me. And it made me wonder, Anna, when you were thinking about, like putting together these extra episodes of firefighters that you'd met, like what you said at the beginning that it was sort of like you wanted to create a kind of chorus of these lives. Like, can you, can you describe that?

Yeah. So I think one of the big fears we had with Emika's story was that people would think she was an outlier because her conviction was a dui. It was seen as one of the more acceptable convictions, like less bad. Less bad, yeah. For somebody and especially for a woman to have, I guess because her mom was somewhat like liberal elite. Her mom was the founder of Good Vibrations. So that made her kind of relatable to our podcast and public radio audience. And that I was worried that people would think, well, all the other women in Crick Cricket Prison are this bad thing that I think that they are. And so I think, number one, is just like, humanize as many people as you can, especially from this population. And number two would be kind of phone book theory, right. That like, anybody whose finger you put on the name of a phone book is gonna have an amazing story, but particularly these firefighters. So I think those were the two things that drove me.

Yeah, that's. I really. When I thought about this after thinking about surviving a house fire as a kid and then having it be your job to go towards fire when you hear of one, it just is. I can't imagine what that's like.

No. And I think that it was interesting in interviewing all these different firefighters, they all had a different kind of mental strategy about running towards the fire. And for some of them, it was what you would expect, Right. Like, I'm here to help people. And some of them had this feeling that they had a debt to pay back, and so that this was kind of like a penance move. Some of them, like Amica, which is. She was drawn to emergency work. Right. It attracts a certain type.

[Anna Sussman]

Right.

[Anna Sale]

Like, definitely it is in people's blood. And then I just loved with Brittany that she was like, I didn't want to go towards the burning building at all. Which I thought was such a refreshing take on it. I don't think I've ever heard a firefighter, paramedic be like, I don't like doing. I don't like doing it. But she did it anyway. Which does kind of raise a little bit of an issue that was hard to get at in the series that, like, you know, the firehouse is a lesser of two evils. Right. You can either be imprisoned and treated quite horribly, or you can be treated a lot better, but be asked to, in return, be asked to run towards burning buildings.

Yeah, I wondered about that. Is that. Is it just, for Britney, the alternative of not having a job that gets you out of the environment of the prison? That. That was enough to sort of.

That's right. That's right. Which is hugely problematic. Right. Being at fire camp or at the firehouse is a massive step up in dignity and quality of life and the way you're treated and what you are paid, which. But you will have to put your life on the line. That's the only option she had.

And have You. How's Brittany doing now?

She's doing well. We've been in communication. You know, life after incarceration is not easy for a lot of reasons, many of them legal and logistical. So she said she finally got her Realtor's license, but because of her history of incarceration, she had to fight a lot to get that license. But she's still living with Jamison. She's got three dogs that she adopted that she loves very much. She seemed to indicate that, like, things were not easy, but that they're doing okay.

And how many of the women firefighters overall that you reported on while making this series? How many were parents?

Oh, all but one. So pretty much nine out of ten. Yep.

And learning what you did about the particular prison environment, do you feel like where they were incarcerated, there was adequate programming for or adequate opportunity for families to have time together?

No, no, that's not. There's no. No, there's no. In my experience, there's no intentional programming or strategizing for how to maintain the bond or connection between parents or children. I mean, I've reported on. I've reported on visiting day at the prison, on Mother's Day, and it's just like any other visiting day, and it's, you know, loud and impersonal, and they shut it down after 10 minutes one year. So folks who had driven for days, you know, got 10 minutes, if that. In Amica's story, she talks about how when she was in jail, visitation was through a glass window. And she was so scared that her kids wouldn't understand that and not being able to hold them that she didn't see them for a year. And if you were put in solitary, visitation is through a glass window, you know, and folks are often put in there through no fault. No fault of their own. It's because there's a lot of traps that are laid that are designed to make folks fail and be locked up in solitary. I don't think that the solution. I don't think that the solution lies in, like, better visiting rooms and, like, longer visiting hours or like, some program I could think of. That all feels uncomfortable to me. Does that make sense? Like, incarceration doesn't work for anybody. But that was really. That's a really scary thing about putting this show out. It's like, am I making it look too good? You know, it's part of the carceral system. Right. It's problematic.

[Lori Bergeson]

Hmm.

[Anna Sale]

I think you can do both.

And what do you mean, tell me more.

Well, I think you can tell the story of what this work has meant for the women that you've met and that you're profiling. And you can also show the way that the carceral system has costs and may not be the best model for dealing with public safety. I think you both end.

I'm really glad you think so. Yeah, I hope so.

Can I go to the very top of the episode that I heard?

Yeah.

When Amica was describing the way that she doesn't understand vehicular manslaughter to be necessarily all that distinct from people who come to their crimes through other means if they're a perpetrator of a crime, where they did have a moment to think about it and it wasn't unintentional premeditated violence. Yeah. Did you. What did you make of that? And do you agree with her?

I mean, I was shocked to hear it. I violently disagreed with it when I first heard it. I thought. And just to be clear for the listener, Right. She said that she felt that a dui, right, where you put something in your body, maybe forget about it, maybe don't think it's safe, go for a drive and accidentally kill somebody. She thought that that crime was no different morally, was no different morally than somebody who made a plan to stab somebody and then stab somebody.

[Anna Sussman]

Which, of.

[Anna Sale]

Course, those things are completely different. How dare you? But then she said, we all. She said, I know what those women were going through in the moment of their crime, and they were out of their mind. They're out of their mind for a moment or out of their mind for a day, or in and out of their mind for a week or a month. And, Lord, I lose my temper. I lose my temp. I'm like a very calm little Quaker woman. Like, I lose my temper on my small children who I love more than the world. Right. And so I could see what she was saying, that people lose their head. And if you don't have the skills to keep your emotions under control, if nobody taught you those skills, or if those skills don't come easily to your brain. I see where she's coming from. I do. And I like it. Honestly, I think it's more helpful.

[Anna Sussman]

To.

[Anna Sale]

Think about our wrongdoings in that way, because I don't believe that there are that many terrible people in the world. I just don't think that's a thing. I think the first story I did on the women's prison was the Mother's Day visiting bus, because, I mean, maybe it's like schmaltzian hallmark of me but like, the. I kind of can't get over it. Right. And like, as journalists, when you're obsessed with something, you just keep telling stories about it. But I just, like, can't get over the idea that the state takes parents away from their kids. It just feels so science fictiony to me. Right. Like, you would have this again, like, stroke of bad luck is what I'm gonna call it. You can call it a moral failing, call it whatever you want, but that because of it, for decades, lifetimes, forever, a parent is separated from their kid and the kid is separated from their parent. I just can't. I just can't get my head around. I don't know. I just can't get my head around it. What do you think?

I guess the thing that I was thinking about listening was both in the series and in Britney's story about mothers being separated from kids and the ways we talk about that and the ways the women you interviewed talk about that, how it had a, you know, a different quality than you heard from incarcerated men or stories about incarcerated men. I was struck that, like, one of the, you know, one of the opening arguments in, like, the trailer of the series is about what it is to be a mother who's separated from her child because of incarceration and how. What a foundational, existential thing.

Yeah. I can't get over you. I just think it's so rare that there's actually less harm caused by incarcerating somebody. Doesn't seem true to me. When you take it all into consideration.

I don't have an answer. I am more interested, I think that what you've achieved in this series is making us think about. I mean, it's on the one hand we're getting to know people who have had experience with incarceration. How that becomes part of an emergency first responder workforce in California, a workforce that we depend on to keep our communities safe. And that making us look straight at, like, getting to know them and that this is all happening in their lives and their family's lives rather than just ignoring it.

That's really nice to hear. Thanks. You don't know what you've made. Right.

[Anna Sussman]

Thank you, Anna Sale. Thank you also to Brittany Davies and Jameson for sharing your stories. Check out our next bonus episode where I speak with Earlonne woods, co host of the amazing podcast Ear Hustle. We'll talk about the story of firefighter K.D. dixon, who was sent to prison when she was 16 years old. Follow fire escape on the Wondry app, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad free by joining Wondry plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify or on Amazon Music with your prime membership.