Bonus Episode: Jodi with Special Guest Stephanie Foo | 9

Summary

Fire Escape: Bonus Episode 3 – Jodi with Special Guest Stephanie Foo

Introduction

In the compelling bonus episode of Fire Escape, hosted by Anna Sussman, listeners delve into the harrowing yet inspirational journey of Jodi Beerse. This episode features a special guest, Stephanie Foo, author of the New York Times bestseller What My Bones Know: A Memoir of Healing from Complex Trauma. Together, they explore Jodi's transformation from a dedicated firefighter to an incarcerated individual, and her subsequent involvement with an all-female crew of inmate firefighters. The discussion extends to the pervasive issue of complex trauma among women in prison, offering profound insights into resilience and recovery.

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Jodi Beerse's Story

Early Life and Firefighting Career

Jodi Beerse's passion for firefighting was ignited in her early teens. Growing up on her grandparents' ranch in South Dakota, she spent much of her time outdoors, fostering a deep connection with nature. At around 13 years old, Jodi read a story in Reader's Digest about one of the first female smokejumpers—a highly trained firefighter who parachutes into fire zones. This story left a lasting impression on her, cementing her desire to pursue a career in firefighting.

By the age of 18, Jodi had secured a seasonal position with the Angeles National Forest. Recounting her first day, she shares her initial awe and apprehension:

“I got out of my car and my knees were shaking because the mountains were so big. I had no idea what I was walking into...” (01:20).

Fatal Crash and Its Aftermath

Jodi's dedication to her role as a hotshot firefighter—the elite, highly trained crews capable of handling extreme fire conditions—was unwavering. However, the demanding nature of her job took a significant toll. On a fateful Fourth of July evening, after scouting potential fire zones illuminated by fireworks, tragedy struck. Her crew's vehicle, the AMOD, rolled over a 20-foot embankment. Amid the chaos, Jodi emerged as a leader, coordinating rescue efforts and providing critical assistance to her injured colleagues.

The emotional impact of the accident was profound:

“Being a firefighter, it becomes so ingrained into your mind, body, and spirit that having your career as a firefighter end... is like having a piece of your heart ripped out.” (04:30).

Legal Consequences and Imprisonment

The following year, Jodi faced another devastating event. Grieving the loss of her battalion chief to cancer and grappling with survivor's guilt, she turned to alcohol as a coping mechanism. This led to a fatal drunk-driving incident, resulting in the death of a woman and severe injuries to her husband. As a firefighter, Jodi was held to a higher standard, escalating her charges from vehicular manslaughter to second-degree murder. The case garnered intense media scrutiny, further complicating her emotional state.

Reflecting on her darkest moments, Jodi admits:

“I was like, oh, that's a great idea. You know, that. That's what I need to do... but then I thought, no.” (19:45).

Ultimately, a plea deal was reached, largely due to the victim's family's forgiveness, allowing Jodi to serve time under reduced charges. This act of compassion played a pivotal role in her path towards redemption.

Joining the All-Female Inmate Firefighter Crew

Upon her release, Jodi sought to reclaim her identity and purpose by joining an all-female crew of incarcerated firefighters. The transition from a respected firefighter to an inmate was fraught with challenges, including societal stigma and personal guilt. However, the supportive environment of the female crew provided a space for emotional expression and healing.

Jodi describes the profound impact of this community:

“The fire girls especially taught me how important it is to release that emotion, to talk about things and to not bottle things up.” (22:10).

She highlights key moments that underscored the significance of their work and camaraderie, such as:

“We would come back after a hard call... looking out for each other and kind of gauging each other's energy...” (25:15).

This collective journey fostered resilience and a renewed sense of purpose, illustrating the transformative power of shared experiences and mutual support.

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Discussion on Complex Trauma with Stephanie Foo

Prevalence of Complex PTSD in Women in Prison

Stephanie Foo brings to light the pervasive issue of complex PTSD among incarcerated women. She posits that trauma is almost ubiquitous in this population:

“I basically assume that it's all of them.” (28:43).

Foo emphasizes that the traumatic experiences endured by these women are not merely symptoms but logical responses to their environments, particularly in prison settings where vulnerability can be perilous.

Interview Techniques for Traumatized Individuals

The conversation delves into the nuances of interviewing individuals trained to suppress emotions, such as firefighters and incarcerated women. Foo discusses the challenges journalists face in eliciting genuine emotional responses without retraumatizing subjects:

“There's so much like gallows humor and dark humor... that humor tells the listener where the person's at.” (30:00).

To navigate this, Foo and Sussman emphasize building trust and creating a safe interview space, allowing subjects to share their stories authentically when they feel secure.

The Importance of Emotional Expression

A critical takeaway from the discussion is the necessity of emotional expression for healing. Foo highlights how the culture within Jodi's all-female crew encouraged vulnerability, contrasting with the traditional machismo often found in firefighting. This shift not only facilitated personal healing for Jodi but also reinforced the strength found in emotional openness.

“It doesn't. It's not a sign of weakness to show emotion because of the things that you see in responding to some of these crashes and fires.” (22:50).

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Conclusion and Insights

This episode of Fire Escape masterfully intertwines Jodi Beerse's personal narrative with broader discussions on trauma and resilience. Jodi's journey from a dedicated firefighter to an inmate seeking redemption exemplifies the profound impact of community support and emotional healing. Stephanie Foo's insights further illuminate the systemic issues surrounding complex trauma in prison populations, advocating for empathetic and nuanced storytelling.

Ultimately, Jodi's story is one of loss, accountability, and the relentless pursuit of self-forgiveness. Her ability to find solace and purpose within an all-female inmate firefighter crew underscores the transformative potential of supportive environments and shared experiences. This episode serves as a poignant reminder of the complex interplay between personal tragedy and the capacity for renewal.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

1. Jodi Beerse on her first day:

   “I got out of my car and my knees were shaking because the mountains were so big. I had no idea what I was walking into...” (01:20)

2. Jodi reflecting on losing her firefighting career:

   “...having your career as a firefighter end... is like having a piece of your heart ripped out.” (04:30)

3. Jodi on coping with trauma:

   “The fire girls especially taught me how important it is to release that emotion, to talk about things and to not bottle things up.” (22:10)

4. Stephanie Foo on complex PTSD in prisons:

   “I basically assume that it's all of them.” (28:43)

5. Jodi on emotional expression:

   “It doesn't. It's not a sign of weakness to show emotion because of the things that you see in responding to some of these crashes and fires.” (22:50)

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Closing Remarks

Fire Escape continues to offer profound narratives that shed light on the human spirit's capacity to endure and overcome. By sharing Jodi Beerse's story alongside expert commentary from Stephanie Foo, this episode provides listeners with a deep, empathetic understanding of trauma, resilience, and the pursuit of redemption.

To stay updated with Fire Escape, follow the podcast on the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Exclusive bonus episodes are available through Wondery+ and Amazon Music with a Prime membership.

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Transcript

[Anna Sussman]

Wondry subscribers can bind all episodes of Fire Escape early and ad free Right now. Join Wondry in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Before we start, just a heads up that this episode includes references to suicidal thoughts. If you or someone you know needs support, you can call the national suicide lifeline at 988. For resource.

[Jodi Beerse]

Snap studios.

[Anna Sussman]

From Wondry and snap studios at KQED. I'm Anna Sussman and this is Fire Escape Bonus Episode three. Jody it's the story of a woman named Jodi Beerse who, unlike anyone else we've heard from so far, was a firefighter before she went to prison. And listening with me today to Jodie's story is Stephanie Fu, author of the New York Times best selling book what My Bones A Memoir of Healing from Complex Trauma. Welcome. Stephanie Fu hi, nice to be here. After listening to Jody's story, we'll talk more about complex trauma as it relates to women in prison. For now, what you need to know is that Jodi Beerse pretty much always knew she would be a firefighter.

[Jodi Beerse]

I grew up in South Dakota on my grandparents ranch, so it was a really fun place to grow up. I grew up spending most of the time outside. We had cows and horses. I think I was about 13 when I read a story in Reader's Digest about a female smokejumper and how she was one of a couple hundred smokejumpers but she was like one of the first females to do it. A smoke jumper is a firefighter that instead of hiking to a fire, they parachute into an area near the fire. And that always stuck with me, like, oh wow, I want to do that. I was 18 or 19 when I actually got started. I had applied to a nationwide position with the Forest Service, thinking that I would go to like Wyoming, Montana, somewhere regionally. And then all of a sudden I got a call from the Angeles National Forest saying, oh, we're offering you a seasonal position on engine 14 and are you interested? And I said yes, yes, I'll take it. Wait, where's the Angeles National Forest? And they said, oh, it's about 50 miles outside of Lake. I was like, oh, okay. That's probably the last place I would have ever guessed that I would move to. But sure, why not? I'm young, I might as well see what this does. And I drove out here to California and I remember the first time driving up the mountain to my station. I got out of my car and my knees were shaking because the mountains were so big. I was, I had no idea what I was walking into and I was like, oh my gosh, I have to fight fire in that. This is crazy.

[Stephanie Fu]

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[Jodi Beerse]

So all the guys that I worked with had never worked with a girl before and they were really terrified of a girl coming onto their crew. Kind of. I think they were afraid of me putting a damper on their brotherhood. You know, starting my very first day on the hotshot crew, you know, just my 22 year old self not knowing anything about anything and stepping onto this station on, you know, where I knew that I had to prove myself. It was definitely the hardest, most grueling, exciting time of my life. I can't tell you how many hikes I did, you know, taking a step, one step after another, just saying in my head, be brave, be strong, be brave, be strong. And yeah, that got me through a lot. There's no amount of training I think that you can do to fully be prepared to go to a hotshot crew. So a hotshot is they're I would say, up to par with a smoke jumper. They just instead of parachuting into fires, they're hiking into them. So they're very highly trained, highly skilled, self sufficient firefighters. They can, a hotshot crew can go into the most extreme conditions that most other people wouldn't, would turn down assignments that they can make happen. I could never imagine my life without my career. It meant everything for me at the time. I wasn't married, I didn't have kids. Like it really was my life. I remember thinking like, what would I do? What would I do if I couldn't fight fire anymore? And then it actually happened to me. So we were going back to our station after scouting the area for potential fires because it was the 4th of July, and so, you know, with all the neighborhoods having fireworks, we were out driving around. It was. It was a nice summer evening. We had been sitting on top of the buggies watching the different fireworks scattered across the town. A buggy is what you call the crew carrier that a hotshot crew or any hand crew would drive around in. There's like old school bus seats. They have a seatbelt and a simple armrest, but it's not. There's no airbags. It's just steel and, you know, some nets on the side to hold your gear in place. Very, very rugged, simple vehicle. So it was time to head back to the station. And so everyone was just in a really, really happy mood. You know, we were playing music in the back of the crew carriers and just laughing and joking and having a really good time. Being pretty loud, actually, because our captain all of a sudden turned around, really, he almost seemed angry and yelled at us, turn the music down. And we're like, gosh, what's his problem? And then he said, amod rolled over. So we have two crew carriers that carry the hotshot crews separated into A squad and B squad. And so AMOD was ahead of us, and they had gotten out on the radio and said that they had rolled over. All of a sudden, I mean, you could hear a pin drop in the back. We were just. Our heart sunk. So we just all quieted down and listened to anything else we could hear on the radio. We knew they had been ahead of us. So we started watching the side of the road. And sure enough, we saw one of the guys from that vehicle waving us down on the side of the road. They had rolled over like a 20 foot embankment. And so they were down in the ditch out of sight from the main road. And so we knew that one of 12 were okay, but we didn't know about everyone else. So I told the guys, like, hey, put on your gear, put on your helmets and headlamps because it's going to be dark. And I just kind of like lined everyone out on what to do. When we got to this scene, the first thing we see was the undercarriage of their buggy. Just a sickening feeling, you know. We climbed up the wheel shafts and just the underside of the buggy and crawled in in a window. And I remember how glad I was that we had put our headlamps on because it was so dark and it was such a foreign place. Being in there with it being on its side, nothing made sense. I couldn't tell what was up or down or anything. One person was stuck in the back, like, he was wedged between his seat and the back door. Another guy who I went to was saying, my neck hurts. And so I said, okay, don't move. And so I just held. Held C spine, which means I just held his head. Head still and made sure that he didn't move his neck. And he kept saying, what happened? And I said, the buggy rolled over. You're inside, you're okay, but we're gonna stay here. He's like, am I okay? And I said, you're okay. We're just gonna sit here and, you know, we're gonna stay still. And pretty soon we heard, you know, a helicopter overhead and we heard people outside and, like, other responders were coming, and they had an inmate crew actually come and help, like, hurt people up the hill. I mean. Cause if you're strapped to that backboard, you wanna make sure that the people that are carrying you don't drop you. So they had a really important job that night. And then I got out and just looking around like, oh, my gosh, what just happened? And so for the rest of the season, half of our crew was pretty much out of commission. Everyone there was. Everyone survived. That person that I helped will never fight fire again. He had some pretty severe injuries, and so his career was over. Being a firefighter, it becomes so ingrained into your mind, body and spirit that having your career as a firefighter end or having that taken away from you is like having a piece of your. Your heart ripped out. You know, it's just something that you can never replace. And I think the rest of us that weren't involved, you know, that weren't injured, I think we had some survivor's guilt. You know, we felt like, why? Why them and why not us? So those of us that were left, we started, I think, just drinking to kind of numb some of those feelings and to. It was a bond, and it was just definitely like a numbing ritual for us. People in the fire service tend to be kind of like machismo, Like, I'm not gonna show any emotion. I think people forget that we do have feelings and that we do remember those sights, those sounds, those smells of every call we remember. We know what the smell of blood is, what the smell of death is. And that's. That's kind of the expectation, especially in the Old school was that you just put that feeling deep in a box and bury it within yourself. And, you know, suddenly you had generations of firefighters and other first responders too, that have PTSD and substance abuse problems, anger issues. And we've learned now that you think you can forget it or move on, but really it's down in there. It stays inside of you. Instead of just bottling up and trying to play tough guy. I probably could have made different choices, you know, not used alcohol as a way to suppress feelings, as a way to numb our emotions. I'm partly where I am today because I didn't express my hurt with that accident. I think the following year, one of our battalion chiefs passed away. He had cancer. And it was a very fast moving cancer, completely unexpected. And he was a very influential battalion chief to us. And he was very young as well, had a young family. He was only like 35. So as firefighters, do we like, okay, well, we're gonna go celebrate his life. And so, in firefighter fashion, we went to the bar. You know, we were just, all right, we're. We're gonna go have a night. This night was like, okay, we don't have to work tomorrow. We'll get a cab tonight. No worries, you know? And somehow the cab portion didn't happen. I don't remember getting into my car or really saying goodbye to anyone. I was just acting in a blackout. I was, I'm sure, acting fine, because if I was acting not fine, I know someone would have stopped me. But I didn't even make it a mile from the bar. And I remember looking up to see a small white car. And I tried slamming on the brakes, and I swerved and I saw my front end hitting hers. Her car door, the sound of the crashing glass. And then I remember, I remember a police officer standing at my driver door with a gun pointing at me, telling me to put my hands up. And sitting in the back of the cop car, trying to figure out where I was, like, where I was looking around like, where's my truck? Was anyone with me? Like, what? I just had no idea what was going on. And I couldn't wrap my head around the thought that I had hurt someone. And I just felt my world just coming to a complete halt. She was killed on impact, and her husband that was with her was in critical condition for a couple months. As soon as the authorities found out that I was a firefighter, my charges went from vehicular manslaughter to second degree murder. Because while everyone knows better than to drink and drive There's a higher standard, you know, like, we. We definitely know better. As firefighters. My time was going from, you know, four to seven years to 15 to life with a second degree murder charge. Just. I remember sitting in the holding cell that night, and I thought, how can I go on with my life? I can't. Like, there was a sign that said, if you're feeling suicidal, please, you know, call for help. And I was like, oh, that's a great idea. You know, that. That's what I need to do, because there's no way that I can go on with my life like this. And then I thought, no, no. Like, how could you even think that? You've. You've spent the last, you know, three, five years of your life telling your co workers and others to be brave and to be strong and to make the right decision and to do the hard. Do the hard thing. I'm like, nope, I need. And it was right then and there. I'm like, I need to buckle down. And as hard as this is, we're gonna. I'm gonna get through it because it's the least I can do. You know, I walked away. I don't even have a scratch on my body. My airbags didn't even go off, you know, and I'm. I'm here and someone else isn't. So I need to just be the best that I can be. You know, going through my trial because I was a firefighter was highly publicized. And so the Forest administration immediately cut ties with me, pretty much. They pretty much forbade any of my crewmates or friends from the. From the forest to be involved with my trial in any way. We almost started picking jury members for the trial. Like, it went really far. And finally, at the last minute, the DA and my attorney were able to come to the plea deal. And luckily. And I could say it's because the family wasn't. They were forgiving to me. They were able to see that. They were able to see that I was a good person and that I didn't, you know, have malice in my heart. And they understood that my life was going to change enough and that I was remorseful. My attorney was actually really blown away by the fact that at my sentencing, my family and my victim's family were. They actually, like, hugged each other outside the courthouse. And I think. I think that meant a lot to my dad. You know, it definitely meant a lot to me. And my attorney's like, I've been in this. I've been in this job for 20 years, and I've never seen anything like that. He's like, that is really amazing. And so, you know, I just always carry that forward, that, you know, to be grateful. To be grateful for the whole journey. I mean, yes, it is not a fun thing thinking about spending the next six or seven years of your life in prison, but just realizing that, you know, I have the ability to make. Make it what it is. You know, just like my year in jail, Either I can wither away, or I can, you know, step up and. And live out the words, the mantra that I had taught my firefighters, you know, So I remember riding the bus up to Chowchilla, shackled to the girl next to me, both facing, like, this unknown, this huge unknown. Like, we didn't know what was awaiting us. We had never been to prison before. I think my biggest fear being in prison was, when will I get to fight fire again? That was probably the biggest thing everyone had said, oh, you'll get right back out. You can get on the inmate crew, and you'll be firefighting again in no time. And that was my goal. As soon as I hit the prison yard, I wanted to get to my counselor and tell them, I want to get to the fire camp. That's what I want to do. I also was a little hesitant. I thought, how strange is it? It's going to feel so weird to be wearing orange and to be an inmate firefighter and see my hotshot crew friends walking beside me at fire camp, you know, because at fire camp, we all go through the same towel line. We all go through the same lines to get our lunches, especially the female crews. There's only one or two female crews, so they stand out. Any. Any female firefighter stands out because there's so few of us. And then a whole crew of female firefighters, of course, stands out. Everyone is working together, and it's gonna be really weird because I know they're gonna see me, and I know I'm gonna see them, but I thought, oh, well, I. I just want to get back to fire. Like, all right, here I am. When. When can I start running? When can I start working out? When can I start preparing for fire camp? So I saw a girl. She had a jean, a denim shirt on, and jeans, which no one gets to wear blue jeans. And it said fire on the back. And I thought, hmm, who is she? And so I ended up just introducing myself to her. I said, hey, I'm Jodi. Are you at the firehouse? And, I mean, obviously. Obviously she was, but I just needed an icebreaker, and she Said, yeah. And I said, I used to be a firefighter with the Forest Service. And so that perked her up her ears. Like, oh, really? You were a firefighter? And I said, yeah, I'm trying to go to fire camp. And she said, well, well, what about the firehouse? I think it was in October of 2014 that I actually got to the firehouse. I got out of the van that dropped me off at the firehouse and I had two pillowcases full of my belongings. The fire girls are all lined up and they're just like jumping up and down, screaming and saying, hi, Jody. Waving and so excited to see me. And I felt like, so overwhelmed. I felt like, just like a piece of me is back, you know, when I first got there, yes, I was an experienced firefighter, but in a completely different atmosphere. So coming into just such a solid crew, it was really reassuring. Like, okay, like, we got this. Whatever we're going to, we got this and we could just go handle it. And we did. And we worked harder than any of the guys that we responded with, that's for sure. Biggest standout moments being on a all girl fire engine was driving through town one day when it was completely all girl. Our captain that day was even female. And a little girl was in a car next to us and she was. We could see her pointing at us and telling her mom, like, look, the fire engine is all girls. And that was just for us, like, wow, you know, we are that huge moment for this little girl, you know, and it wasn't about inmate, firefighter, anything. It was just, there's a fire engine and there's all girls in there. We would come back after a hard call, whether it was emotionally draining or we really do a good job of looking out for each other and kind of gauging each other's energy and like, are they okay? Are they doing okay? Kind of look into their eyes and look into their cell and be like, are you really okay? And engage from there. That's what's different with working with 10 females, is that emotions fly easily whether you want them to or not. The fire girls especially taught me how important it is to release that emotion, to talk about things and to not bottle things up. It doesn't. It's not a sign of weakness to show emotion because of the things that you see in responding to some of these crashes and fires. They're not normal. They're not things that normal people see. And so I think that's one thing that Station 5 has changed in me as a firefighter is just the ability to take someone aside and say, hey, no, no, that was kind of some gruesome stuff. Not just, oh, we're good. Okay, that was.

[Anna Sussman]

Listening with me today to Jody's story is Stephanie Fu, author of the best selling book what My Bones A memoir of healing from complex trauma. Stephanie, when I was making this series, I often wondered how many women in prison have complex ptsd? Is that something you ever wondered about?

[Suki Lewis]

I basically assume that it's all of them.

[Anna Sussman]

Yeah.

[Suki Lewis]

I mean, I know that my book does very well in prisons.

[Anna Sussman]

Whoa, that's interesting.

[Suki Lewis]

Yeah. Well, just as a journalist, I want to ask you a couple questions about craft. In my experience as a journalist, it's really difficult reporting on the military and first responders because the way they deal with trauma. And it's very hard for radio producers, especially because you really have to capture the sound of somebody being vulnerable and emotional. Emotional. But they're so practiced at dissociation, about making jokes about hard things, about just turning it off and sort of being very dead. Flat affect. So how are you able to bring real feelings out of the women that you interviewed?

[Anna Sussman]

Right. Fair. Good question. So there's Jodie as a firefighter before she was incarcerated, and then there's Jody now. And there's women who I've interviewed while they're in prison at the firehouse. And there's women who I've interviewed once they're out. And they're completely different interviews. Right. Because of what you're saying, when people are in prison or when people are on the front lines of a war or a fire or they're a paramedic, they cannot put their walls down and do the work. It's not possible. You can't put your walls down and be incarcerated. You will get destroyed. You will destroy yourself if you are vulnerable and loving in prison, because it will break your heart too many times. So interviewing somebody who's in the work, right, in the line, on the front lines is really different. Right. And I think in that situation, my goal is to kind of show those walls through the humor. There's so much like gallows humor and dark humor. Right. That humor tells the listener where the person's at. I don't need them to put their wall down. The wall can be part of the story and the listener can understand that's where this person's at. You get that. You can hear that in their voice. And then interviewing somebody who's post incarceration or like Jody, after she had been in this all female firehouse, Environment where they did have a culture of emotional support. They did have a culture of processing what they had experienced on the front lines. That interview was an interview with somebody who was safe. I can ask them all kinds of the questions that are gonna bust somebody open because they're, they feel safe.

[Suki Lewis]

Yeah. So she's had, she's had time and space to put her walls down. So that might be the key is essentially like waiting until people are.

[Anna Sussman]

That's right, yeah.

[Suki Lewis]

Ready to do the work of feeling their feelings. Because I mean, dissociation is a survival mechanism and it's necessary. It's, it's like a very common symptom of ptsd. But it, PTSD is not, it's not a mental illness if you're actually in danger.

[Anna Sussman]

Yeah, interesting.

[Suki Lewis]

If you're in prison, you're definitely actually in danger. All of these symptoms are not actually symptoms, quote unquote. They are the logical, effective means of you surviving whatever the situation that you're in. So that makes a lot of sense.

[Anna Sussman]

Well, that's fascinating. I want to ask you about your interview techniques. When you're interviewing people in frontline situations. What do you do when you, because you've interviewed a lot of military folks.

[Suki Lewis]

Interviewed a fair amount. It's a selection thing really. Like nine out of ten people are not going to be able to go there. And a lot of time it's because they're, they're protecting themselves. And so it's about find. Talking to a lot of people essentially to find that one person who is willing to go there.

[Anna Sussman]

That's honestly why I did the series on Amica, because we did. It was supposed to be just a one story, one snap judgment story, like a 20 minute story on a fire she responded to on Christmas Eve at a co's house. And when I talked to her I was like, oh, she's able to speak in a way that I think is really worthwhile. Right. Like let's do a whole series.

[Suki Lewis]

Yeah, that's great. I mean, because that's the search is the battle part of it is a trust thing too though. Right. I think that there are a lot of journalists and storytelling that can be pretty sensationalist and gruesome. And so I think a big part of it is being able to earn the trust of somebody that you're interviewing because nobody owes you their story and you should prove that you are going to be do their story justice. Right. So I don't know how you are able to earn the trust of your subjects.

[Anna Sussman]

Right. So the kind of journalism that we do is not holding public officials accountable. And I feel like so many of the rules of journalism stem from that particular brand of journalism, which is. Which is important and vital to a healthy democracy, holding public officials accountable. But it's not what we're doing. And so I think that those rules are often superimposed on what we do. But I tell my people I interview, you know, you can call me and change anything. Later you can tell me not to put a line in that. You said, if it's sitting with you poorly. And more and more I say, you can listen to it before it goes out. And if it doesn't feel right to you, we could talk about it and change it, because they're the one. It's their story going out to millions of people. They know it better than I do. Right. And, like, I don't have a duty to the public to give them this story unfiltered. That's not a responsibility I have. Right. Like, would be my responsibility if I was interviewing a public official.

[Suki Lewis]

Yeah. So, like, when I make a story or write something, I often read it with different eyes or ears. You know, like, let me read the story from this perspective. Let me read the story from that perspective. Did you struggle thinking about it from their victims perspectives?

[Anna Sussman]

Of course. All the time we think. I think and amica thinks and my editors think, how would this hit? How would this land for them? Right. And how would this feel for them? Okay. I'm terrified to say this. I don't even know if it would go in, but I almost felt like part of my job in making this particular piece was to turn down that concern, because I worried that amplifying that turning up that concern would undo some of the work we were trying to do in this, which is to say this thing about we are all capable of this harm and stop thinking that one person is worse than another because of a decision they made. And if I turned up the voice in my head of her victim, then I think I would turn down some of that other perspective, and I didn't want to do that. Does that make sense? Hmm.

[Jodi Beerse]

Yeah.

[Suki Lewis]

But that's such a. That's a really tricky moral decision to have to make.

[Anna Sussman]

Yeah. Not popular. Yeah. So one of the things that Emika said that really resonated with me was that the world, and in particular victims, don't want their perpetrators to ever move out of their pain. And when you've been convicted and sent to prison, the world wants you to never. You're never allowed to move to that place. Of joy because you took a life.

[Suki Lewis]

And we all have to perform our roles as victim, hero. I think that's what's so interesting about Jodie's story, is because like you, she has saved a bunch of lives. Then what box do you put Jodie in? You have to put her in a box in order to assign judgment, right? It's really tricky. What did Amica have to say about that?

[Anna Sussman]

Something we talked about a lot, right, with like her acting remorseful or being remorseful and knowing that she needed to be a certain amount of remorseful to be accepted. And what does that even mean, remorseful? But what she says is that I'm no good to the world if I am not allowed to heal myself and be a full person. What good am I to my victim's family or my victim or my children or anybody else if I don't tell myself it's okay to get better?

[Suki Lewis]

I think we say that they don't deserve a lot of things, right? The right to vote, whatever. And I think it's very easy to assume too, that you don't have the right to your story, that you don't have the right to share your story, that your side does not matter totally. And so it is kind of a revolutionary thing too, I guess, of you sharing, saying like, hey, you are deserving of a story.

[Anna Sussman]

Thank you, Stephanie Fu, for talking with me today and thank you Jodi Beers for sharing your story. Check out our final bonus episode where I bring in the host of the podcast on our watch, Suki Lewis. Suki and I will talk about the story of a woman named Adrianna and what happens when people get out of prison and work in the prison town. Follow Fire Escape on the Wondry app, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad free by joining Wondry plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify or on Amazon Music with your prime membership.