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- [00:00]
Anna Sussman
A warning. This episode includes references to racism and sexism that some listeners might find disturbing.
- [00:18]
Earlonne Woods
SNAP Studios.
- [00:24]
Anna Sussman
From Snap Studios and Wondry, I'm Anna Sussman. This is Fire Escape Bonus Episode two, Katie and with me here in the studio is Earlonne woods, co host of the award winning Ear Hustle podcast from Radiotopia and prx. Welcome Earlonne.
- [00:39]
Earlonne Woods
Yes, hello.
- [00:40]
Anna Sussman
We're going to listen to Katie's story together and then afterwards we'll talk about youth incarceration and life after prison.
- [00:46]
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- [01:52]
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- [02:48]
Anna Sussman
Story starts when she's 16 and gets arrested.
- [02:53]
Katie Dixon
My name is KD. I am a formerly incarcerated Californian. I'm an African American young woman. I'm queer. I'm a pretty outgoing person. I love doggies, coffee. I have five siblings. Well, it's five. Well, no, I have like seven siblings, I think.
- [03:17]
Anna Sussman
When Katie was 16, she found herself on a bus on her way to the Ventura County Juvenile Corrections FAC, a maximum security facility for kids as young as 12.
- [03:28]
Katie Dixon
I could just remember sitting on the van ride down there, which now it turns out, was only like what, six hours? Six, seven hours away. But at the time, it felt like I was going across the country. I was leaving my family. And I just remember staring out the window, looking at lands and fields I had never seen before and just wondering if I was going to ever make it back to my family. I wasn't sure at the time. I was 16 years old.
- [03:55]
Anna Sussman
Was everyone else on the bus a kid too?
- [03:58]
Katie Dixon
Yep. We was all going to one of these California Youth Authority facilities.
- [04:03]
Fine Mortuary College Ad
Yep.
- [04:04]
Katie Dixon
It was like a caravan of vans.
- [04:05]
Anna Sussman
Who shackled.
- [04:06]
Katie Dixon
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That was prison. They was taking us to prison. We sure was.
- [04:13]
Anna Sussman
Mm. How did you think, how did you tell yourself you were gonna get through it?
- [04:18]
Katie Dixon
By being tough. I knew I had to defend myself. So that was the first thing in my mind was, you know, making sure that I could def myself against whatever would come my way. I was charged with a murder charge. I was 16.
- [04:36]
Anna Sussman
Katie had been doing a lot of illegal things at a young age. Stealing bikes, selling drugs. And late one night she got into a fight with a man and he ended up dead. She wants to protect the specific details of that night.
- [04:53]
Katie Dixon
I do try to keep it general because these folks have a family that is still viable and alive and they're in the Bay Area somewhere. And so, you know, I just try to be respectful. I don't know who's listening. I pleded self defense. I was a young kid, you know, we didn't have resources and knowledge and avenues. My mother didn't even think about an attorney. That never even came up. It was a public defender from the gate, you know, we took what the state had offered. I did juvenile life, so that's gonna be a good old seven years.
- [05:35]
Anna Sussman
KD and the other kids in the facility would be woken up each morning with guards coming down the hallway and unlocking their cells.
- [05:43]
Katie Dixon
You hear them coming. Cause of the normal prison sounds, the boots, the jangle with the keys, you know, depending on who's working, you know, they whistling. Yeah, you up pretty early. Single file in line and shit. You had to have your bed made. The room needed to be cleaned up. Yada, yada, yada. Single file line down to the day room. And then from the day room, it was like announcements over the loudspeakers. And now it's time for school. And so if you in school is. That's mandatory.
- [06:17]
Anna Sussman
They'd walk single file, Girls first, then boys to classes to Meals to work assignments, and then back to their cells at night.
- [06:25]
Katie Dixon
We was back in our rooms, I think by like 8 or 9 o'clock. It was cold and lonely, really.
- [06:33]
Anna Sussman
Was anybody in the position of like, you know, room, parent, counselor, anything like that?
- [06:43]
Katie Dixon
No, the counselors were. They were correctional officers. Those people were trained to control and arrest.
- [06:59]
Anna Sussman
I also read that the Ventura County Juvenile Corrections Facility was cited for having high incidence of use of chemical spray.
- [07:07]
Katie Dixon
Yep.
- [07:07]
Anna Sussman
Did that ever happen when you were there?
- [07:09]
Katie Dixon
Yep. They have pepper sprayed us all the time. Like it was times where we were all like being defiant by, I don't know, just hella yelling and banging on our doors. And they had come down like, y'all better shut that shit up or we finna bomb this motherfucker. And they'd come through and just, yeah, like close these gates and throw these bombs down the hallway. And yet we would all start trying to stuff our doors and shit and open up our little windows. I think the toilet, I remember you could put your head in the toilet and like cover yourself over the toilet. I don't know what the fuck we thought that was doing, but you could do that or yes, try to do the COVID over y'all face at the window. But the window only opened a little bit and I think the person at the top would get the air. So both of y'all would have to get on the top bed to try to cover up. But the, if I remember, it's just like regular, what nature or gravity or whatever you want to say, like the smoke and everything rise to the top. So we were young, we didn't. Couldn't really understand that. So we would really climb to the top and really be dying even more.
- [08:19]
Anna Sussman
And what did it feel like?
- [08:20]
Katie Dixon
I mean, shit, like you couldn't breathe.
- [08:23]
Anna Sussman
The incarcerated kids were allowed visits from their parents and that's kind of what they would live for.
- [08:29]
Katie Dixon
She said you got to pray and hope that your family can make it down there to see you. Would your mom come visit maybe like once a year? Yeah, I didn't really get visits like that. We were down in Ventura county, right. My mother lived in the Bay Area. So that's a little drive that's like what, a five, six hour drive? So that required a rental car. Mama had to take off work and she just couldn't afford that. She couldn't afford to drive down there to take off work and stuff like that.
- [09:03]
Anna Sussman
So that once a year visit from her mom was a very big deal for kd.
- [09:08]
Katie Dixon
I would be excited, you know, just Excited. I knew what it took for her to get down there and so I was excited. You want to try to get your little hair done, get some braids or get it cut, however you wear it. My girlfriend will braid my hair. You will want to try to work with the laundry people to get like a new shirt, you know. So you want to try to sneak and get a new shirt. You want to press it so you got to sleep on it for like a couple.
- [09:35]
Anna Sussman
You'd put them under your mattress and sleep on them.
- [09:37]
Katie Dixon
Mm, yeah. However you want it creased. Yep. You want to press your little outfit. You want to try to get you some new socks. You want to wash your shoes because they probably toe up, especially if you only got that one little pair or you can borrow some shoes too. So you know, you spend like your little week getting your little outfit and shit together because it takes a lot. You got to crease them for like two days under the mattress. You won't look nice because you're seeing your parents, you know, somebody from outside.
- [10:11]
Anna Sussman
At the Ventura County Juvenile Corrections center, there was also a fire program where incarcerated juveniles would train to fight wildfires.
- [10:21]
Katie Dixon
Fire camp was the place to be that came with all kind of perps. Access to the outdoors, you know, that's freedom. Yeah. Better food. Everybody knew about that.
- [10:35]
Anna Sussman
So how'd you move over to the fire program?
- [10:38]
Katie Dixon
I had a year left and I was really in trouble a lot throughout my stay. So I had to work really hard to even be eligible to be accepted to go to fire camp. You had to be right up free for like 30 days in order to move up from a level C. And so you could get a write up for anything. Talking back, moving too slow and you know, like, those were some of my problems. I had to like kiss the guard's ass and shit. I had to like even just stay in my room. Cause if it was a point where anytime I even came out my room, I got in trouble. I just remember just kind of going from being just a rowdy, rambunctious kid to just trying to be a little more respectful because I wanted to go to camp. And you know what? I just learned something last night at this talk I went to last night. And she said, not only do you have to take care of kids needs, you have to feed their desires. And I was like, that's true, like. Cause that is what was the catalyst was like to feed my desire. Something I wanted once it was made, that it was really a possibility for me. So, you know. Yeah, you gotta. Yeah, Nurture the kids in order for us to try to change our behavior. And then you made it, and then I made it.
- [12:02]
Anna Sussman
Do you remember that moment?
- [12:03]
Katie Dixon
Mm. I thought the boots was cool. They was like the best thing going. They were heavy and sturdy and they were mines and you had to like keep up with them and you gotta learn how to tie em and there were these special boots. The shirt, you know, our shirts was khaki colored, so got your little, you know, you want to keep it on the hanger, so you got to get some hangers. You know, only the good folks can have hangers. So you got to try to get you a little hanger or two. So I remember the uniform. I was real proud of myself for making it to fire camp.
- [12:35]
Anna Sussman
They do a lot of training and get called to nearby fires to help with mop up or spot fires, but the real action was always at the big, big state level. Wildfires. And would you get called out on wildfires?
- [12:48]
Katie Dixon
Yeah, yeah. Yes, I went on a lot of wildfires.
- [12:52]
Anna Sussman
Sometimes the juveniles on the firefighting wards would hear about the big wildfires burning nearby and know that they might get.
- [12:59]
Katie Dixon
Called up because it's all on the news. And so you like, ooh, I hope we get called to that fire.
- [13:05]
Anna Sussman
You guys would watch it on TV in the day room.
- [13:07]
Katie Dixon
Yes.
- [13:08]
Ashley Flowers
Crackling flames burned up more brush in Santa Barbara County, California, Sunday. Helicopters dropped water on the blaze as.
- [13:16]
Katie Dixon
Emergency vehicles raced down the road.
- [13:19]
Anna Sussman
In 2017, one of the biggest fires in the state was the Zaca fire outside of Santa Barbara.
- [13:24]
Earlonne Woods
Some frightening moments at the Zaca fire burning near Los Olivas in Santa Barbara County. Crews from our region are among those fighting the flames. Right now, the fire has burned 6,500 acres. It is about 30% fuel contained.
- [13:36]
Anna Sussman
Katie's crew got called to help with the Zaca fire.
- [13:41]
Katie Dixon
It was in the middle of the night and they turn on all the lights and come over intercom and say, Crew 6, let's go. And so, like, you know what that means? So that's a fire roll. We get excited. You get up out your bed, you like, hey. You start banging on your wall. But at the same time you putting on your clothes because you got a suit up and they come down and they start popping the doors. They like, Crew 6, let's go. And yeah, you just shit. You come out running.
- [14:07]
Anna Sussman
They have you. When you were going to fire camp, did you have to pack a bag because you were gonna be there for a long time?
- [14:11]
Katie Dixon
No. So that stuff is already packed. That's Stationed on your bus.
- [14:15]
Anna Sussman
Um, so you have, like a week's worth of stuff or something in a bag on the bus ready to go?
- [14:21]
Katie Dixon
Yes, yes, at all times. And so we was just juiced. We out the jail. We going to base camp. And base camp is like little towns. Like, the way to describe it is, like, you see, like a military deployment, like when the Red Cross come through and set up all these tents and stuff. And so they got showers, food. I mean, it's everything you need. It's like a little town.
- [14:43]
Anna Sussman
Do you remember rolling in for the first time?
- [14:45]
Katie Dixon
Yeah, it was dope. It was all kind of different. Fire trucks just lined up and parked and people walking around in a little fire suit. You see what's going on, like you a part of something. And so we rolled in there and we park next to, like, some other fire people. So we gotta unload our sleeping bags because we get a big tent, and it's our tent. And so we gotta go. You gotta go in there and pick your spot. So we like running, trying to get the good spots we like. I got this spot first. This my sleep bag. Hey, you come next to me. This our area right here. And so you can go get snacks. So it's snacks and food all day. So you like. Like this little nutri grain thing right here. Like, you would never get this in the prison, but you get this kind of stuff at the base camp. So we like loading up on nutrigrain bars and shit, you know, and it was just the bomb. We would be sitting right next to the free firefighters. This is like, you get to eat, like, fish and steak and. Cause they have to feed the free people, too. So there's not like a line for the inmates. No, it's all one big old happy feast. This community of firefighters, like, people treated us nice. And, you know, you would be next to, like, a free firefighter, and it'd be like the last Gatorade. It'd be like, oh, was you about to get that? And then you'd be like, oh, well, yes, I was.
- [16:00]
Anna Sussman
And they'd be fighting the fire right alongside the free firefighters.
- [16:05]
Katie Dixon
Then you hiking alongside, though the free people and working alongside the free people. So you might be hiking for, like, three hours or even four hours, because you gotta get to the fire, you know? And so, yes, it's actual flames that we trying to scrape and separate the flame from the dirt or we trying to cut the trees down. You can barely breathe. You can barely see. It's hot. And you got to still be out There working and watching out for your comrades. And really, we would be cutting down trees that's on fire. Like, you gotta. If it's burning this way, you gotta try to. Cause you want it to fall this way or you want it to fall back into the black. And it's a science to it, too. You got to know how big. You got to be able to look up, see how big the tree is real quick in your mind. Like, we was literally working right there next to the free folks. And, yeah, they will pass us the hose, come get the water. Like, if they needed to get past us, they would say, excuse me. You know, they would actually use our tool. Like, hey, let me use that Pulaski real quick. And you like, oh, hell yeah, you will hurry up and give it to them. Because you can't believe they asked you for your tool. Like, yep, it felt good.
- [17:18]
Anna Sussman
I remember that they had been at the Zaca fire, digging ditches and hosing down flames, and it was still not contained. And then Katie and a few other people in her group were told they were going to be transferred to a ridgeline.
- [17:33]
Katie Dixon
We was probably there, like, two weeks at that time. And so, you know, you go lay down for your little 24, and then they come tell y'all what y'all next shift is. And so we was, you know, eavesdropping on the captain, and so he come and let us know. Like, ladies, we got our assignment. We're going to watch the ridge. We're going to be getting helicoptered over there. You know, like, we exploded in excitement. We like, oh, my gosh, the helicopter. And so we had to drive to the Hella spot helipad or whatever they call it. And it was a lot of hell. Well, well, not a lot, because, you know, they need space. And. But it was multiple helicopters taking people off. And this was a Blackhawk helicopter, and I guess it had been retrofitted for fires. And so they had to give us a quick little explainer, like, how to get on it. You gotta hold your helmet. You gotta hold your helmet on your head. You gotta duck down and you gotta run over there, like, duck down low with your helmet. And you gotta be ducking because you can't see the blades. And you don't wanna get your head chopped off. And so you gotta be ducking down low. And we like, oh, my gosh. And they like, you know, hold your tool tight. I remember everybody trying to fight for, like, the door seat, too. Trying to, you know. Cause we wanted to be able to look out the door. So we get on there and they put our tools in the back and it was scary and it started taking off and we was like, oh, my gosh. And we was looking out the hole in the floor and, you know, we was trying to dangle our feet. Okay, so we gotta land and shit. And it's all like rocky and shaky and it's fun and we like, oh, shit. Oh, shit. And so it was just life changing. It was a life experience. I'll never forget it.
- [19:17]
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- [20:24]
Ashley Flowers
Hi, I'm Ashley Flowers, and if you're like me and grew up watching America's Most Wanted and reading Nancy Drew, then hi, you're a crime junkie. And I bet that passion for solving mysteries never went away. Which is why we've assembled a team of reporters to dig deep into all the cases we still obsess over. Each Monday, my best friend Britt and I will bring you a case that you won't be able to stop thinking and talking about. So join us by listening to Crime Junkie wherever you listen to podcasts.
- [20:55]
Anna Sussman
The Blackhawk sat down on a Rocky mountainside and the crew grabbed their gear and jumped off.
- [21:02]
Katie Dixon
We retool up and then we had to hike for like two, three hours to get to the ridge. We had to hike. I believe I remember it was straight up. So you going up for two, three hours? They dropped us. They would Drop us snacks and shit. And we got to go hiking. Get it? It was so fun. And so it was like, okay, who want to go get the stuff?
- [21:20]
Earlonne Woods
And people?
- [21:20]
Katie Dixon
Oh, me, me, me, me. Then it be like, well, no, y'all went the last time. Our job was to watch. And if we see any smoke or any flames. So the ridge was. It was far away, you know, and so our job, if any smoke or fire hit that ridge, that mean base camp gotta move. So, like, we. This was a real important job because that you need time to pack up all that stuff at base camp. And so if we saw any smoke or fire get to that ridge, we needed to let them know. And we was up there for three days with no shower, no nothing.
- [21:54]
Anna Sussman
Tents.
- [21:55]
Katie Dixon
No tents. We had our little sleeping bags. You know, we was looking at the stars, and we just was feeling free. Dangling your legs off a mountain, like, it was just life changing. It was a life experience. I'll never forget it. I think it taught me the beauty of nature. So now I like hiking and being in the wilderness. Cause that's, you know, we did a lot of that. The beauty of getting away and why that is important as a human being. I loved. Taught us about being physically fit and mentally fit. We was treated with dignity and respect. It was a skill, something new to learn and something to be hopeful about. Coming from the hood and from the ghetto. Like, a lot of us are just full of energy, running around with nothing to do. There's baseball playing players and basketball players and musicians stuck in the ghetto. And so a lot of us are running around hungry and thirsty to learn something, for opportunity, to showcase what we have. And we just never had those opportunities. And that's how we wind up getting in trouble, committing crimes and shit. Like, we all wanted to be firefighters at the time. It just was, like, naturally hopeful, built into it to hope that this is a career because you work with the free firefighters and so you can see the career in it. I got out of jail and tried to pursue that as a career. It seemed valuable. I felt like I was good at it. I loved it.
- [23:34]
Anna Sussman
Katie was released when she was 22 years old, and she knew what she wanted to do, so she enrolled in a training program to become a firefighter.
- [23:42]
Katie Dixon
They had a wildland firefighting academy and program at the Solano Community College. I was living with my mother, and so I enrolled in the community college. I used my little scholarship to, like, pay for equipment and stuff. And I thought I was off to the races with a newfound career. Five days a Week, eight hours a day. They would train us. You have to go running, doing push ups, learning like fire terminology, your 10s and 18s and um, yeah, like the teachers liked it and valued that I had actual on the line experience. Cause they know about working with the prisoners. Cause this is what we do in California.
- [24:31]
Anna Sussman
But the people she was training with now were acting different than the folks she worked with up on the fire line.
- [24:38]
Katie Dixon
Um, I hate to say it, I was the only black person there and I was the only female. They were very racist and sexist towards me and a lot of them just really didn't like that I had was incarcerated and had like Fireline experience and these skills and things like that. And so it was really challenging to go through this academy. It really was. I was called nigger, bitch, slut, ghetto ass, all kind of stuff. It was really terrible actually, when I think about it. They did call me a criminal and shit like that was a few little incidents though, where it was like getting real heated throughout that class. I really had a hard time in that class.
- [25:20]
Anna Sussman
At night, Katie would go home and she'd go online and search up local firefighter chatboards and threads to try to seek community.
- [25:29]
Katie Dixon
I came across comments and they were saying stuff like, we don't want to work alongside these criminals or they applying for these jobs or some shit like that. In my gut I felt like, what do you mean I don't have the training? Like I done beat these hills down with these fires. You crazy? I couldn't believe it. I thought I was tripping. A lot of these folks come from military and police communities and families. They're all intertwined. So it was a lot of guys in the class that was militant. And then other people in my class, like they dads and shit, was police officers or stuff like that. So that's where the realization was hitting me at, that this industry is really not that welcoming to me or people with a criminal record trying to come join this industry. You know, it seemed cool when we was doing it for free, but now that we're trying to get a job, we just seem like unworthy. Competition is like some of the way the language that was being used. I just wanted to be a firefighter, period. I was imagining me being an incident commander or something like that. I just saw myself soaring to the top. I graduated from the firefighting academy, but in order to go get on one of these trucks, you needed to have an EMT license and you have to. So that's another requirement that you're trying to Go meet on your own. And so you take an EMT class wherever you can get in one.
- [26:54]
Anna Sussman
So did you do that?
- [26:55]
Katie Dixon
I did. I got into the EMT class and there was letting us know the requirements and how after the class, you gotta go take the state boards.
- [27:04]
Anna Sussman
And then the teacher of the class said that in order to take the state boards, they were gonna need to run a background check.
- [27:11]
Katie Dixon
If it's two or more felonies, you're gonna be automatically disqualified. And he just kept moving. And I was like, oh, well, that is me. Shit. What's the word? Devastating or defeated? Deflated. Just mad. Like, I felt like I was wasting my time and my money going to the school. And then also my family was struggling at the time. When I realized that I couldn't get, you know, the certification, plus my family already struggling. It was just hard to think about trying to find other ways or to challenge it. I didn't have connections. I was like, this ain't even worth. Why am I even trying my best to fit in this community that clearly doesn't want me? I'm a young black woman, and they're not that. These are white men. And so let me go do something else. That's how I felt. This is not worth the fight. But I was like, man, fuck it. Why am I even wasting my time with this? And so I dropped out. I went back to selling drugs because we was behind on rent. Um. Yeah, my mama needed help. Um. Yeah, I wind up in jail real fast. I cycled back in and out of jail for, like, another two, three years. I was homeless most of these times.
- [28:34]
Anna Sussman
Do you still mourn the loss of this potential life that you didn't get to have?
- [28:38]
Katie Dixon
I do. When it's fire season, um, whenever it's the beginning of fire season, I will be, like, glued to the tv, like, narrating to anybody that would listen.
- [28:48]
Fine Mortuary College Ad
Hundreds of homes as the Maria fire quickly spread to more than 9,000 acres.
- [28:53]
Katie Dixon
Threatening the area's tens of millions of.
- [28:55]
Fine Mortuary College Ad
Dollars worth of lemon and avocado crop.
- [28:58]
Katie Dixon
Yeah, it looked like a volcano. Yeah, this was going on right here. Like.
- [29:00]
Earlonne Woods
Yep.
- [29:01]
Katie Dixon
Those guys. You see that bulldozer? You can't even see it. Like, I would be narrating the clouds and shit. It took me years, you know, to realize that. That it was a dream deferred, but definitely is still there.
- [29:22]
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- [30:08]
Anna Sussman
Listening TO Katie's story. Here in the studio with me is Earlonne woods, co host of the Ear Hustle podcast and author of the book this Is Ear Unflinching Stories of Everyday Prison Life. He's been reporting about life behind bars and life post incarceration for almost 10 years. And he actually started producing Ear Hustle with co host Nigel Poor when he was incarcerated at San Quentin. Now he's out and he's with us in the studio to talk about Katie's story. Welcome. Earlonne, what stood out to you about this story?
- [30:41]
Earlonne Woods
Well, I mean, I think a lot of things stuck out, but anytime, you know, you get to hear the camp elements, that's what always sticks out to me because, you know, serving time in prison, you always want to go to camp. Seriously, like everybody want to go to camp, but some of us can't make camp due to the seriousness of our crimes. You know, but camp is one of the things that we wish that we can go to. Cause, you know, again, camp, there's incentive for camps. You know, one of the incentives is you get paid more. So that's the biggest incentive.
- [31:19]
Anna Sussman
Did you ever come across a program in the carceral system that you loved?
- [31:26]
Earlonne Woods
Well, I'll say this. So what got me to when I went to San Quentin State Prison, I was in another prison, Sentinel State Prison, and I was there for 12 years and there was nothing that really captivated my attention. Like one day when I was watching the Discovery Channel and I seen San Quentin had a film school. So that was the one program that really captured my attention because it thought outside the box. There was no other person that had a film, a media type situation. So that's the program that I was attracted to. That's what spoke to me. So I would say a program that technically didn't even exist, but it was volunteers bringing in opportunity. So I would say anything media related is what caught my attention.
- [32:14]
Anna Sussman
Was there anything in Katie's story that was hard to hear?
- [32:18]
Earlonne Woods
Mm. Hard to hear. I Can't say hard to hear, because her struggle, I mean, her struggle is in line pretty much with everybody's struggle at serving time. Her whole life was the average struggle, you know, of the average person that's probably in prison. And I say it from the point of view, like I first went to prison during the crack era. And when I got to prison as a kid, I think I was like 18, 19, one of them. I was way healthier than everybody in the prison system in the reception part, because most of them was coming in off crack benches, you know what I'm saying? Like, just skinny and stronger out. And it was a trip. Cause I was saying to myself, is this prison? You know what I'm saying? Because I'm a youngster and they looking at me like I'm the big homie, because I'm healthy. But I did see the effects of the crack era while in custody a little bit, because I ain't lying. They was coming in, it was all bad.
- [33:27]
Anna Sussman
So that was like an education for you.
- [33:30]
Earlonne Woods
It was a big education for me. As soon as I got from one side to the youth authority, I crossed the street to Chino Prison. It was an eye opener. But that was just my ideal of, damn, this is the crack era right here. This is all the people I see in the neighborhood that's, you know, pushing baskets and all that stuff. So that was interesting.
- [33:52]
Anna Sussman
So, yeah, 25% of women in prison have been convicted of a drug offense compared to 12% of men in prison.
- [33:59]
Earlonne Woods
And it's a, you know, going into women's prison, which we do go in there, is totally different than going to men's prison. And I think the difference is I spent a total of 27 years in men's prison. So I understand, you know, every aspect of it. But to go to a women's prison for the first time and to see an 87 year old woman bent over trying to just get up to, you know, just walk up her hall, it was different. It hit different because it hit more like, bruh, that's your grandmama. You know what I'm saying? You're not. You used to seeing old men, you know, but old women that you could see, just looking at them like, what harm would they cause in society? You know what I'm saying? That, that I think that anytime I walk into women's facility, it hits different than men facilities, you know.
- [34:52]
Anna Sussman
All right, let's talk about reentry for a minute.
- [34:54]
Earlonne Woods
Okay.
- [34:55]
Anna Sussman
What do you think people misunderstand about reentry?
- [34:58]
Earlonne Woods
That it's easy, you know, that. That getting out of prison or getting out of any type of facility, especially if you've been gone for a long time, because there's gonna be gaps in your resume, big gaps. And, you know, we can be creative and say, you know, I worked for the state during those times, you know, but, you know, they get to the bottom of it, you know. But I think it's real hard if a person getting out have stable housing and can get a job, life look good, you know what I'm saying? But if you get out and you're struggling with any of those, then it could be hard on you if you're struggling with housing. When I was in prison, I went as a juvenile. So I didn't get the stuff. I didn't get the tools that I needed to survive in society because I went in as a juvenile, got out as what's supposed to be an adult, but I still had a juvenile mindset, you know, I didn't get no high school diploma, didn't get no trades, no nothing. So I went in.
- [35:59]
Anna Sussman
You just got frozen in time.
- [36:01]
Earlonne Woods
Got frozen in time, suspended animation, for real. And got out. But I got out, I guess I was supposed to be almost 24, and I was supposed to react like an almost 24 year old. But at that point, I had never paid a bill, never had an id, never had a driver's license, never had never nothing. So I'm getting out to a world where I'm trying to acclimate into society and do regular shit, but I don't even have a high school diploma. So when I go to fill out a job application, that's the one thing. That's the first thing at that time they looked at. Do you have a high school diploma? Never got, like a callback. Because when I went to jail at 17 years old, I had just turned 17, we went to jail for kidnapping a neighborhood drug dealer, you know, which we thought it wasn't, you know, much or. But in the world, you know, kidnapping is something totally different, you know?
- [36:52]
Anna Sussman
Did you think you were like a vigilante?
- [36:53]
Earlonne Woods
I thought we was like saviors of our community, you know what I'm saying? Not that I thought like that, but pretty much, yeah.
- [37:00]
Anna Sussman
No, you were doing.
- [37:01]
Earlonne Woods
Yeah, we were like, okay, y'all cowboys, you know? You know, y'all selling drugs. Okay, we'll come get all the money y'all make from selling drugs. So, you know, when you put down on a job application or you say you've been arrested for kidnap, you know, they looking at, oh, you got the propensity to kidnap. We cool on you, you know? Cause I was young, but that affected me. That affected me in being hired. And it comes to a point where, you know, I'm gonna say, you tired of probably living on people couches. You need to make a living for yourself. Nobody will hire you.
- [37:33]
Anna Sussman
I mean, did you hear when KD said, after a certain amount of barriers to firefighting, she just said, forget it.
- [37:40]
Earlonne Woods
Yeah.
- [37:41]
Anna Sussman
And that's a crime.
- [37:43]
Earlonne Woods
And that's sad, because I think up until recently, if you was a firefighter inside, and then when you got out, that was it. Your firefighting days are over. Because nobody's gonna hire you on the streets with, you know, felony convictions. Which is sad because, you know, sometimes, you know, when you say people changing, people do change in those moments when you are in positions to help others, you know, especially, you know, made in a fire, be it a fiery crash, be it a car crash, whatever, that humanity is something about that that really changes people. But you have to figure out how you gonna make a living. I mean, because again, you can't make a living without a job. You can't make a living righteously without righteous employment opportunities. Like, if you in prison for, let's say, 10 years and you're a firefighter for those, for eight of those 10 years and you get out, that's all, you know, that's all you want to do. It's sad that they won't allow. It's sad that when you can be, let's say, for instance, I can be the best brain surgeon in the world, but being that I'm a felon, I can't participate or I can't assist to save lives. When I'm the best brain surgeon in the world, and everybody know I'm the best brain surgeon in the world, but due to this one little stigma or this one little check on my name, I'm done. So I look at it like, a lot of times, you know, people be like, we need this, we need that. We need these people. You got them, they there, they around, but you just don't see them because they got this little check by their name. Convicted felon.
- [39:24]
Anna Sussman
You know, what's different about reentry for women that you've seen?
- [39:29]
Earlonne Woods
So when you sitting in a prison forever and you finally get out, your whole mind is made up of where I'm gonna work, you know, and you try to think of that, like months or years before you even get out, you know, what am I gonna do when I get out? Like, when that day come, what am I gonna do? Most. Most people, they find these jobs and we realize soon that we're too old for them. They'd be like warehouse jobs where you just breaking your back and, you know, we don't have that in us no more. Yeah. I think for as the men, the whole mission is it's only two things that you really need. Housing and a job. Everything else will come to you. But those are the two things of how to again, get back into a society and be a part of the society as opposed to being outside of the society. Because the men I know, that's all you think about, where I'm gonna work. So it's different, okay? It is different for men and women. Usually when the mother get out, she has to return back to being the sole parent. You know, when men get out, they don't never necessarily be the sole parent, you know, so men are in a position to just go on about their day and not think about the little ones like that. So, yes, it's interesting that, you know, women, I can see that, that their whole thought process is how I'm gonna be a mother to my kids. Actually, you know, I don't even know if the men even think about other people. Men trying to figure out how they gonna provide for self. Because if you. You. So of course we want to take care of everybody, but we have to take care of ourselves first. We're no good to no one else if we can't even take care of ourselves. Because again, when I can only say speak for me, when it was in the past where I couldn't find a job, I told myself it was okay to give up, you know, and by giving up, that means I'm going back into the life of crime.
- [41:28]
Anna Sussman
But you said you gave yourself permission to give up.
- [41:30]
Earlonne Woods
I did. I did. I gave myself permission to give up. And I did that because I felt that after a year of trying to get jobs, and I'm not talking like under the table jobs, I'm talking like just jobs, real jobs. I realized that either I wasn't looking in the right spots, I didn't have the right qualifications or whatever the case may be, I just looked at it like, you know what? I gave it a shot, you know what I'm saying? And now I'm going back. I'm giving myself permission to go, just do whatever. And I did that. And that was like the wrong decision. Cause that's the decision I thought about for the next 20 some years in prison. So what got you into wanting to follow Katie's story.
- [42:16]
Anna Sussman
I'm interested in what prison does to people because my grandfather was imprisoned and as a result was pretty abusive to my mother. He was imprisoned because of his religious beliefs because he refused to go fight in World War II. So he was sent to a labor camp. And then when my mom was born, he asked for permission to leave the labor camp, and. And they denied him permission to leave. So he escaped the labor camp, and then they caught him and they put him in prison. So that's where most of my interest starts. But I think the fire program, I just can't. I just think it's fascinating. I can't get enough of the fire program. Right. The way it turns all of the power dynamics upside down. But at the same time, you're putting them in danger and they're incarcerated and they're imprisoned and they're not getting paid. And I like things that are intent and all the ways at the same time. Yeah. Kind of story wise.
- [43:21]
Earlonne Woods
Well, you kind of sort of get paid.
- [43:23]
Anna Sussman
Kind of sort of get paid what.
- [43:24]
Earlonne Woods
You get, like a dollar an hour or something.
- [43:25]
Anna Sussman
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. To die.
- [43:27]
Earlonne Woods
Yeah. But that, hey, hey, I mean, I think you, you, you, you would choose that over just sitting in a prison cell.
- [43:36]
Anna Sussman
That's right. Because your choices are terrible.
- [43:38]
Earlonne Woods
Your choices are terrible. And these right here gives you some type of action, give you some type of outlet, some type of freedom. You know, my favorite freedom in prison was when I used to transfer from prison to prison because I'd be on the freeway with all the free people looking at all the cars, looking in the cars, wondering, wishing I was in one of those cars. So I can definitely say, you know, being out, probably fighting a fire on those, you know, highways, and you just, you just out there, it's the element, you know, that's. That's a good thing, though. Cause I'm telling you, I wanted to go to camp so bad, but my crime and my status in prison wouldn't allow it. And I'm definitely looking, hoping KD have much success.
- [44:26]
Anna Sussman
Awesome.
- [44:26]
Earlonne Woods
Indeed.
- [44:27]
Anna Sussman
Thank you.
- [44:28]
Earlonne Woods
Thank you.
- [44:28]
Anna Sussman
Appreciate you appreciate it too. Thank you. Earlonne Woods. Be sure to check out the Ear Hustle podcast to hear more of his amazing storytelling about life inside the prison system. And thank you to Katie Dixon. Katie now does criminal justice advocacy work and still loves a good hike in the wilderness. Check out our next bonus episode where we meet Jodi Bierce, who you met earlier in the series. She fought fire alongside Amica. And I'll talk with Stephanie Fu, author of the best selling book what My Bones A memoir of healing from complex trauma. Follow Fire Escape on the Wondry app, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to episodes early and ad free by joining Wondry plus in the Wondry App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify or on Amazon Music with your prime membership.