Chapter One | Point of Origin

Summary

Firebug - Chapter One | Point of Origin Hosted by Carrie Antholis | Released on November 6, 2023

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Introduction: The Spark of a Story

The episode opens with Carrie Antholis recalling a pivotal moment from thirty years prior that set her on the path to uncovering a decade-long arson spree in Southern California. While driving to a meeting, Cary hears a news bulletin about federal agents arresting a suspected serial arsonist. The arrest includes a peculiar piece of evidence—a manuscript for the novel Points of Origin, which closely mirrors the arsonist's crimes.

Cary Antholis [01:41]:
"Federal agents had arrested a suspected serial arsonist, a man they said had been torching California for a decade. And when they searched his house, they found the letter you just heard and a manuscript for that novel, Points of Origin."

Intrigued by the connection between the novel and the real-life fires, Cary seeks the counsel of Sheila Nevins, a legendary documentary producer. Their conversation reveals Sheila's interest in the arsonist's obsession with fire, which she believes is the core of the compelling story.

Sheila Nevins [04:28]:
"You're a good guy, Karen. Now go start a few fires."

This enigmatic encouragement propels Cary into a deep investigation, blurring the lines between fiction and reality.

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The Olies Fire: A Tragic Blaze

The narrative shifts to the harrowing events of a devastating fire at Oley's Home Center in South Pasadena, drawing eerie parallels to the fictional events in Points of Origin. The fire claimed the lives of four individuals, including a grandmother and her two-year-old grandson, Matthew.

Cary Antholis [05:20]:
"A brush fire burned 67 homes."

As authorities scramble to control the inferno, the scene is chaotic, with firefighters battling intense flames and families desperately searching for loved ones. Cary juxtaposes this real-life tragedy with a passage from the novel, highlighting the similarities in the victims and the method of the arsonist.

Excerpt from Points of Origin [06:29]:
"Madeline and Matthew would be dead. … As he saw the woman and the kid were walking away, he pulled out his wallet and looked into it while he walked through an empty checkout line. His ploy worked. No one paid him any attention."

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The Investigation: Jim Allen and John Orr Take Charge

Enter Jim Allen, an arson investigator for the state fire marshal, and John Orr, a seasoned arson explosives supervisor with the Glendale Fire Department. Both men are pivotal in investigating the Olies fire.

Jim Allen [13:18]:
"Everybody tried to help the fire department fight the fire."

John Orr, known as the "Frito Bandito" within investigative circles due to his expertise in uncovering patterns in arson cases, begins to suspect that the Olies fire is linked to a serial arsonist responsible for multiple similar incidents across Los Angeles County.

John Orr [14:05]:
"We were having a series of fires in supermarkets, primarily in potato chip racks inside the stores."

The night of the Olies fire becomes a focal point as multiple fires break out simultaneously, overwhelming local fire departments and raising suspicions of a coordinated arson campaign.

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Tracing the Flames: A Race Against Time

As dawn breaks, Jim Allen and John Orr confront the immense destruction at Oley's, determined to locate the "point of origin" to ascertain whether the fire was accidental or deliberate.

Jim Allen [16:43]:
"John was quite certain that this was a fire relating to all the other fires in Los Angeles county attributed to an unknown arsonist."

Their investigation leads them through the wreckage, analyzing char patterns and fire behavior to pinpoint the source of the blaze. However, their efforts are abruptly halted when the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department intervenes, ruling the fire accidental due to a presumed electrical fault.

Jim Allen [19:25]:
"My official report will indicate the cause of the fire is undetermined because you would not allow us to investigate the fire."

Frustrated by the premature closure of the case, Allen and Orr find solidarity in their mutual determination to seek the truth, despite institutional obstacles.

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Echoes of Fiction: Points of Origin and Reality Collide

The episode draws a direct comparison between the fictional arsonist Aaron Stiles in Points of Origin and the real-life investigations. Both the novel and the Olies fire involve deliberate, calculated acts resulting in tragic loss of life.

Excerpt from Points of Origin [25:17]:
"Aaron had already killed five people in one of his fires. He rationalized the deaths as he did everything. It wasn't his fault."

This parallel intensifies the mystery surrounding the arsonist's identity and motives, suggesting that the novelist may have inadvertently exposed his crimes through his writing.

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The Unresolved Mystery: A Blazing Enigma

As the episode concludes, Cary Antholis reflects on the improbability of catching a serial arsonist, with John Orr expressing skepticism about the arsonist's capture likelihood.

John Orr [25:34]:
"The real arsonist would probably not be apprehended. The likelihood of a serial arsonist being caught is probably less than 1%."

The unresolved nature of the Olies fire and its refusal to link directly to the arsonist leaves listeners with a lingering sense of urgency and the haunting question of where fiction and reality intersect.

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Conclusion: Where Truth Meets Fiction

Firebug's first chapter masterfully intertwines real-life investigative challenges with the suspense of a fictional narrative. Through detailed recounting of events, expert testimonials, and literary parallels, Cary Antholis sets the stage for a gripping exploration of obsession, tragedy, and the elusive quest for justice.

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Notable Quotes:

• Jim Allen [17:20]:
  "John was an absolutely wonderful investigator because he got to origin quite quickly."

• John Orr [14:15]:
  "John was very well known as an investigator. He's one of the most famous fire investigators in our world."

• Sheila Nevins [04:28]:
  "You're a good guy, Karen. Now go start a few fires."

Timestamp Highlights:

• 00:30: Introduction to the real-life arsonist and Points of Origin manuscript discovery.
• 05:20: Description of the Olies fire and its immediate aftermath.
• 13:18: Jim Allen discusses initial firefighting efforts.
• 16:43: Jim Allen and John Orr begin their investigation into the Olies fire.
• 19:25: Clash with the Sheriff's Department over the investigation's direction.
• 25:34: John Orr reflects on the challenges of apprehending a serial arsonist.

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Firebug continues to unravel the complexities of this chilling case, promising deeper insights and revelations in subsequent episodes. Subscribe to Firebug on Apple Podcasts or visit GetTheBinge.com to follow along with Cary Antholis's riveting investigation into the heart of Southern California's fiery mysteries.

Transcript

[Lululemon Advertiser]

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[Literary Agent]

17, 1991 to the L. Harry Lee Literary Agency. Common criminals seem to have one characteristic. They all share the need to distance themselves from their crimes as quickly as possible. All criminals, that is, except the arsonist. The arsonist stays close by and sometimes even participates in the discovery and eventual extinguishment of his fire. The arsonist is weak and insecure and usually perpetrates his crime in the dark. The evidence is almost always destroyed, if not by the fire, then by the firefighters during extinguishment. My novel Points of Origin is a fact based work that follows the pattern of an actual arsonist who has been setting serial fires in California over the past eight years. He has not been identified or apprehended, probably will not be in the near future.

[Cary Antholis]

Thirty years ago, this letter was making the rounds at literary agencies across the country. It was attached to a manuscript for a novel called Points of Origin, which told the story of a fictional arsonist who set fires all over Southern California. My name is Cary Anthoulis. At the time, I was a young filmmaker living in Hollywood, looking for a story to tell. I was in my car on my way to a meeting when a news bulletin came over the radio.

[Literary Agent]

He's charged with setting several fires.

[Cary Antholis]

Federal agents had arrested a suspected serial arsonist, a man they said had been torching California for a decade. And when they searched his house, they found the letter you just heard and a manuscript for that novel, Points of Origin. The feds had come to the conclusion that Points of Origin was more of a diary. That the fire set by its main character were based on real fires set by the author. And as I drove to my meeting, that amazing story stuck in my mind. Sheila. But of course, that day I had a face to face with legendary documentary producer Sheila Nevins, which for me was a big opportunity. Do you remember when we first met?

[Sheila Nevins]

Shit.

[Lululemon Advertiser]

No.

[Cary Antholis]

Okay.

[Sheila Nevins]

Did I look the same as I look now?

[Cary Antholis]

You looked worse than you look now. I remember wanting to impress her, but all I could think about was this thing I'd heard on the radio on the way over.

[Sheila Nevins]

I remember you were hot on arson and hot on this arsonist.

[Cary Antholis]

It was the kind of thing where the more I talked about it, the more questions I had. I mean, who writes a book about crimes they're guilty of?

[Sheila Nevins]

Why did he write it? Why did he write it in the first place?

[Cary Antholis]

From what I understood at the time, these investigators had traced the fires in this novel to real world arsons, even real world murders. And all I could think about was how do you use a work of fiction to find the truth?

[Sheila Nevins]

That was the most interesting part. I figured whether he was guilty or not, he was guilty of being obsessed by it. His obsession is fire. And that's a good story.

[Cary Antholis]

Sheila told me to go check it out, and that started me on a long journey. Thirty years later, I'm picking up that weird, fiery novel to see what investigators saw when they arrested the man who wrote it. To find out where the truth meets the fiction. Sheila, do you remember what you told me?

[Sheila Nevins]

You're a good guy, Karen. Now go start a few fires.

[Literary Agent]

A devastating rash of fires fueled by.

[Cary Antholis]

Erratic winds, A withering heat wave, not to mention arsonists. A brush fire burned 67 homes.

[Avid Reader Press Advertiser]

29 other fires left an $18 million trail of ashes.

[Cary Antholis]

Southern California was being beat to death with fires.

[Literary Agent]

Governor George Dukemagin offered a $50,000 for information leading to the arrest of the arsonist.

[John Orr]

The Highway 99 arsonist.

[Jim Allen]

Hello, Pyro.

[Cary Antholis]

The most prolific arsonist of the 20th.

[Family Member]

Century with a drop on drug trying.

[John Orr]

To set you free.

[Cary Antholis]

The serial arsonist used the fires as the basis for a novel. I'm gonna confess in a book what.

[John Orr]

I've been doing for the past seven.

[Cary Antholis]

Years under the very noses of these.

[Jim Allen]

Investigators more than anyone.

[Cary Antholis]

We're gonna get this guy.

[Jim Allen]

This guy's not gonna stop. You know, firebugs don't stop.

[Cary Antholis]

I'm Carrie Antholis and this is firebug. Chapter one. Point of origin. Every fire has a starting point. The layers of soot, the torch furniture, the chart patterns on the wall, all of it leads back to a point where the fire started with a spark. It's called the point of origin. That was the name of the novel investigators believed to be the confession of a serial arsonist. Points of origin. It follows a fictional arsonist named Aaron Stiles. Aaron sets the first fire in the book and the most deadly in a hardware store filled with customers. The store is called Cal's. Here's a passage from points of origin.

[Literary Agent]

The hardware business prospered in the small community south of Pasadena. Hardware stores such as Cowes did well. Madeline Paulson went to the cluster of stores at least twice a week to shop. Tonight she was babysitting with her three year old grandson, Matthew. She took him to the Baskin Robbins ice cream store and while standing in the parking lot sharing a chocolate mint cone, she decided to entertain Matthew further by walking through cows. In less than six minutes, Madeline and Matthew would be dead. As she rounded a corner, she almost ran into a man walking with his hands in his pockets. She heard his breath suck in and he mumbled his apologies as he continued on and she continued to the back of the store with Matthew. Aaron glanced back over his shoulder and breathed a sigh of relief, and as he saw the woman and the kid were walking away, he pulled out his wallet and looked into it while he walked through an empty checkout line. His ploy worked. No one paid him any attention.

[Investigator]

In the city of Hacienda Heights, California. Interviewing Mr. Reuben Ayala Mr. Ayala, are you aware I'm taking this report by the use of a recording device? Sir, yes, I am.

[Cary Antholis]

This is an investigator's interview with Ruben Ayala, a manager at a South Pasadena hardware store called Oley's Home Center.

[Investigator]

This interview regards an incident which took place during the month of October of 1984.

[Cary Antholis]

What happened at Oley's is eerily similar to what happens in the novel Points of Origin at the fictional hardware store called Cal's.

[Investigator]

Tell me the time and the place of this incident, please. October 10th. It was on a Wednesday, roughly around 8 and 8:15. It was getting time for us to start closing, putting our money away, things like that. Was the store very busy that night? No. It's a good thing it wasn't. The World Series was on, I think. I just walked up to customer service and the fire alarm went off. I kind of tried to feel or sense or smell smoke and I didn't. So I thought somebody was playing with the alarm. And then I heard some screaming. So I turned around and I saw some fire. It's like somebody had a flamethrower and they were shooting it from the other side of the building into this side of the building. I grabbed a fire extinguisher and I ran towards the fire. But before I could get about maybe five feet from the customer service desk, two fire doors came down.

[Cary Antholis]

A pair of heavy metal doors sealed off the entire west side of the store.

[Investigator]

I knew some people were in there. As soon as the doors came down, I ran outside to try to get inside the building.

[Cary Antholis]

Ayala ran out to the parking lot where he saw another employee.

[Investigator]

He was on his knees and I realized he had been burned.

[Cary Antholis]

Behind the employee was an open emergency Door wreathed in flames.

[Investigator]

The fire was raging there. I had the fire extinguisher with me at the time and I tried putting the fire out to get in. There's no way. I couldn't even step three feet in front of the door.

[Cary Antholis]

The first engine from the South Pasadena Fire Company arrived. A six man team woefully unprepared for what they were about to face. The inside of the building, a warehouse the size of a football field, was engulfed in fire.

[Investigator]

Everybody tried to help the fire department fight the fire.

[Cary Antholis]

They fired water through the open emergency door. But the inferno kept growing. As the firemen worked, Ayala searched the crowd for his co workers.

[Investigator]

I looked at everybody and I knew who was there and who wasn't there. Employees, two of them weren't there. And I told the fire department I still had people in there and we had to get inside to get the people out. But nobody paid attention.

[Cary Antholis]

The fire had gotten so big so quickly, it tore through the roof of the building, venting into the night sky. And more and more engine companies were arriving from all over the county. In the parking lot, customers were calling out for their loved ones. And an older man was looking for his wife and his two year old grandson Matthew.

[Investigator]

They were in the store with him, shopping. He went to his car and they weren't there. He said that they should have been there and they weren't. At that point I figured there was at least four people in there in the building.

[Jim Allen]

I was at home in bed when the call from South Pasadena Fire Department came.

[Cary Antholis]

This is Jim Allen, an arson investigator for the state fire marshal. He was called in to help investigate the fire at Ole's home center. Alan got dressed and drove through the night to the scene. Pulling off at the exit, he could see the devastation.

[Jim Allen]

The building was virtually destroyed. This was an immense building, several hundred feet long and a couple of hundred feet wide. The roof had collapsed into the interior.

[Cary Antholis]

As Alan got closer, he saw fire companies surrounding the building. Firemen were still struggling with pockets of flame. Water was being shot from above. As Alan got out of his car, the spray was pouring down like rain. He could hear alarms still blaring inside the building.

[Jim Allen]

There were some people missing that had not been accounted for. It was assumed that they were still in the building. If you let death rule your investigation, your opinions at the end become clouded because you have to avenge their deaths. You can't let that happen.

[Cary Antholis]

In the parking lot at Oley's, Allen spotted someone he recognized, a friend.

[John Orr]

My name is John Orr. I was A captain with the Glendale Fire Department. And I was assigned as the arson explosives supervisor.

[Jim Allen]

More often than not, John and I would get together for a beer and we talked fire investigation, fire investigator training. Because he was big into that.

[Cary Antholis]

Orr was known to have a keen sense for arson, skills he'd passed on to countless others in training courses he gave around the state.

[Jim Allen]

John was very well known as an investigator. He's one of the most famous fire investigators in our world.

[Cary Antholis]

And that night, Orr was visiting Pasadena for a reason.

[John Orr]

I was called earlier in the evening and advised that Pasadena had a potato chip fire.

[Cary Antholis]

Potato chip arsons had been a problem in LA County.

[John Orr]

We were having a series of fires in supermarkets, primarily in potato chip racks inside the stores. And potato chips burn readily.

[Cary Antholis]

Orr had a hunch that all these fires were being started by a serial arsonist.

[John Orr]

We called the guy the Frito Bandito. We had been hit several times and I'd advise my dispatchers to contact me on the air if any of the other cities suffers one of those fires.

[Cary Antholis]

And that night they called and Albertsons supermarket in Pasadena had been hit.

[John Orr]

And it was a potato chip rack, about 10ft worth of potato chips, and it smoked the whole store up. It was typical of the series. And as I was coming back to my city, I heard a fire being dispatched.

[Family Member]

Second alarm structure fire in South Pasadena.

[Cary Antholis]

It was the Oleys fire. John raced to the scene.

[John Orr]

I got down to the Oleys building and. And it was not a lot of fire showing at this time. A lot of smoke was coming out of it and the fire department was there and for quite a while they were out front trying to decide what to do and how to attack this fire.

[Cary Antholis]

And then something really unusual happened.

[John Orr]

I was advised that there was another fire in a potato chip rack a mile south at Avon's Market.

[Cary Antholis]

I mean, this was unheard of even in the arson world. Three fires in the same area on the same night, and all of them happened during business hours. It took fire companies from 10 cities to put out the Ollie's fire. What was left was a dangerous tangle of twisted metal. As dawn broke, John Orr and Jim Allen were standing in the parking lot eager to get inside. Because Orr had a hunch.

[Jim Allen]

John was quite certain that this was a fire relating to all the other fires in Los Angeles county attributed to an unknown arsonist.

[Cary Antholis]

It was time to go inside to find out.

[Jim Allen]

We have to have the fire talk to us. We have to have the fire explained to us what it did, how it moved and the damage that it created.

[Cary Antholis]

To figure out how the fire at Oley started. Arson investigators Jim Allen and John Orr needed to get to where it started.

[John Orr]

A fire usually starts at one location or one point of origin and then builds out from there. And that's how we investigate fires.

[Cary Antholis]

The point, point of origin, it was in there somewhere, under thousands of pounds of rubble. And finding it was the only way to know for sure if this fire was an accident or arson.

[Jim Allen]

John was an absolutely wonderful investigator because he got to origin quite quickly.

[Cary Antholis]

They passed through the front door into the olies cash out area, which was flooded from hose water. The fire doors were up so Allen and Orr could pass through into the devastation.

[Jim Allen]

By then, it was enough light to see it. You could see that the roof had collapsed over the far left end of the building almost entirely. Much of the roof was sitting on top of the steel shelving.

[Cary Antholis]

Orr and Alan moved debris, trying to trace the path the fire took. It was slow going, but the char patterns and damage were leading them towards the houseware section.

[Jim Allen]

John was familiar with the inside of the building because he had been there purchasing things and said that was an area where the poly foam was located.

[John Orr]

If you make your own pillows, you can stuff them with this polyurethane foam stuff. This stuff burned like the potato chip fires did. Glenn. That may have been the origin of the fire at Oley's.

[Cary Antholis]

Could the frito bandido have set this fire, too?

[Jim Allen]

Had we had another three or four hours, we might have been able to get to where John claimed that it started.

[Cary Antholis]

But Orr and Allen weren't going to have three hours. The Los Angeles sheriff's department had arrived, bringing its own fire investigation unit. And because there were still four people missing, a sheriff's lieutenant from the homicide division had taken over the scene.

[Jim Allen]

The lieutenant said, there's no sense spending any more time in there. Our investigators have found the cause of the fire.

[Cary Antholis]

The sheriff's department decided that the fire had started in the ceiling, probably because of an electrical problem. They ruled it accidental.

[Jim Allen]

And I said, that makes no sense at all. I became quite irate, and I started to get into an argument with this sheriff's lieutenant. A very tall, imposing guy. He's well over six feet. I was really angry that this was happening. I remember saying, I. I have as much right to the scene as you do. I don't have to follow your orders. He made it very clear, you either follow my orders or you will find yourself in the backseat of a patrol unit. There's one of me and 10 of them who wins.

[Cary Antholis]

Allen and Doerr were outranked.

[John Orr]

The LA County Sheriff's called him an accidental fire even though there was two potato chip fires on each side of it. And that was totally bogus, totally wrong. It was not an accidental fire.

[Jim Allen]

Over my objections, they brought in the bulldozers and they proceeded to tear up the building to the place you could not investigate it any longer.

[Cary Antholis]

The families of the victims were at the scene watching and waiting for the bodies to be found. Still missing were Jimmy Cetina, a 17 year old, Oley's employee, Carolyn Krause, an Oley's employee and mother of two, and a grandmother, Ada Deal, along with her two year old grandson, Matthew. Marie Troidel, Matthew's other grandmother, was at the scene.

[Family Member]

We were called last night and told him he was trapped in there. He was dead. That's all we know.

[Cary Antholis]

Your son, your grandson, your son, my grandbaby. What were the circumstances? Was he with.

[Family Member]

He was with his other grandmother. They were in the store shopping with her husband, his grandfather, and she decided to go back for one more thing. She took the baby with her and Mr. Deal turned around to try and help them and there was just a big puff of smoke and nothing. No way he could help them. She was his grandmother too, and I'm sure she did everything she could for him.

[Cary Antholis]

Was she lost in the fire also?

[Family Member]

Yes, she was in there.

[Jim Allen]

I was there when the bodies were discovered. They were lying on the floor in close proximity to each other and it was close to an exit. Any violent death, I don't care where it is, how it is, it is an emotional shock for the family. After the bodies were found, there was a meeting between me and the sheriff's office people and I was told, you will come up with our cause. This is an accidental fire. These are accidental deaths. And I said no. My official report will indicate the cause of the fire is undetermined because you would not allow us to investigate the fire. In closing, John and I went and had a drink somewhere and he said, the people that investigated this fire did a pathetic job of it. John was really livid and I felt that his anger was justified. This is another one of those fires and if the people in here have died as a result of it, then this is a homicide. But we could never prove it. You say inwardly, did I investigate this fire correctly? Can I, as a spokesperson for the dead, have their loss of life honored and put the arsonist away? We were never allowed to get to the origin.

[Cary Antholis]

In the novel Points of Origin, the fictional arsonist, Aaron Stiles burns down a hardware store. The fire kills five people, including a grandmother and her grandson Matthew. And just like in the Olies fire, Cowles was determined to be an accident. Here's another passage from points of origin.

[Literary Agent]

Aaron had already killed five people in one of his fires. He rationalized the deaths as he did everything. It wasn't his fault. The people to him just acted stupidly and their deaths had nothing to do with the fact that he set the fire. They just reacted too slowly. It was too bad about the baby, but shit, it wasn't my fault.

[Cary Antholis]

Not long after the Olies fire, a string of arsons happened on John Orr's home turf of Glendale. Grassy fields burned, cars were set ablaze in garages and Orr knew whoever set the fire at Oley's was still out there.

[John Orr]

The real arsonist would probably not be apprehended. The likelihood of a serial arsonist being caught is probably less than 1%. He'd have to make a major mistake somewhere along the line.

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[Avid Reader Press Advertiser]

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[Cary Antholis]

If you want to see what happened the night of the Oldies fire, visit our website at Truth Media. The next episode of Firebug is available right now. Just keep listening. Firebug is a production of Truth Media in partnership with Sony Music Entertainment. It was created in association with Crime Story Media. This episode of Firebug was produced by Ryan Sweikart with help from Michelle Lands, Neil Denisha and W. Harry Fortuna. Ryan Sweikart is our senior producer. Story editing by Mark Smerling. Carrie Antholis, that's Me is our host and executive producer. Kevin Shepard and Alessandro Santoro are associate producers. Our archive producer is Brennan Reese Scott Curtis is our production manager. Fact checking by Austin Thompson. Michael Blumenfeld did the mix with help from Kenny Cusiak. Sound designed by Michael Blumenfeld, Kenny Cusiak and Ryan Swigert. Music by Kenny Cusiak, John Cusiak and Marmoset Voice acting by Levi Petrie. Our title track is Young Men Dead by Black Angels. Special thanks to Mark Baert and the California Conference of Arson Investigators for their support. Thanks also to Jim Allen, Marvin Casey, Scotty Baker, Mike Cabral, and Steve Patterson. If you'd like to continue the conversation online, find us on Twitter @FirebugPodcast. If you've enjoyed Firebug, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review on itunes. It really helps other people find the show and thanks for listening.