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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Welcome back to Firewall. I'm your host, Bradley Tusk. Here with us is our friend and producer, Hugo Lindgren. Hugo, how are you?
- [00:15]
B
Good. So we are going to talk about health today, specifically your health and the
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A
more of both of our practices now.
- [00:22]
B
Yeah, but I think you have a much more defined practice than I do. I mean, I'm happy to chime in with what I do, but one of the things that I realized from just from talking to you over the years is that you study these things and you do a bunch of things that, like, I definitely don't.
- [00:38]
A
Well, I'm very proactive and I'm very. Just generally willing to experiment on myself.
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B
Right.
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A
So also just, I was thinking about this morning because this is now the second episode of this type in a row where we're not covering the normal stuff, and it's, you know, with sandwiches and now this. I noticed today when I opened up the papers and it was, you know, the Times, the Journal, and the New York Post, it's just like, I didn't want to hear it. I didn't want to read about Elon Musk. I didn't want to read about Zoram on Downhi. I didn't want to read about Donald Trump. Depending on the publication, they either lionize them or scream and cry and claw and scratch. And I just wasn't fucking. I haven't been interested in any of that in a while now. And it's just like everything feels so exaggerated on all sides, even from what are supposed to be relatively objective mainstream media, that I'm not to say this is a permanent thing, but at least lately, I just haven't had any interest in it.
- [01:32]
B
Yeah. I mean, I have to say, just on the Trump stuff, I think what he's doing now with the slush fund is just so beyond.
- [01:39]
A
It's like, it's terrible. But at the same time, you open up the Times homepage, 80% of the stories are about Trump. And I know that's probably what their readers want, and I know it's what the reporters want to cover. I get it. But, like, it's like he's a horrific. He's one of the worst human beings in human history in terms of his impact and scale and personality. And I get it. And there are things he's doing that will go away when he goes away. There are things you're doing that will hurt this country in the world for many, many years to come. But I just, you know, more and more and more stories from the Times making The case as to why he's bad. Like, I get it, you're wasting my time at this point.
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B
Yeah, yeah. Well, he continues to find new ways to be bad, so it's. Yeah, they're in a tough spot on that. Okay, so talk about what.
- [02:22]
A
So this was just, you know, I had, in my very OCD way. Although I will say I've been doing a lot less since I did the transcranial magnetic stimulation treatment. I like to make lists and go through checklists and I've been, you know, the, the bad side is when I ruminate to the point where I'm just going through the same checklist over and over and over again. I'm doing much less of that.
- [02:42]
B
These are checklists just in your head
- [02:43]
A
or you also write them down? Sometimes I write them down, but frequently in my head. But for health, I do have a list that I've written down of like all of the things that I try to do to be healthy. Because if you are really trying to do everything you can. And we'll also talk about the times where you choose not to and when those might be valid choices as well. But it's a lot of stuff, right. And I am in a envious but in some ways a little difficult position, which is I have a lot of agency, meaning I work a lot, but I control my schedule pretty much completely. Right. So I, I can kind of fit in anything I want to do from a health standpoint. I have the money to pay for anything I might want to do. I have a lot of discipline. So you put all that together and it means that the list becomes very long.
- [03:37]
B
So at what point in your life did this start? Like the real serious. Like is it like the last 10 years or like.
- [03:43]
A
Yeah, yeah, I think so, in fact. So I've always, it's kind of a approach. I've always worked out. Like that's. I started workout in high school, I've pretty much always worked out. So that's been pretty constant. Although I think I have stepped it up a notch in the last six months, eight years.
- [03:57]
B
Despite all your run ins in the gym?
- [03:59]
A
Yes, yes. But I think in terms of diet, in terms of different types of mental health treatment, in terms of focus on sleep, all of that, I think it's been, you know, when I was. I know his name is now a dirty word and rightfully so. But when I read Peter Attia's book Outlive, I think it was called when I was. I remember I was 49 because a lot of it was Stuff that I then did when I was turned 50, which was just. He wrote this, despite who he is, an excellent book about longevity, but it was very tangible. Like, here are the specific tests, ways to think about it. And I remember making a very long list and saying, when I turn 50, I'm going to do all of these things. And I did. And it gave me a real baseline for my health. But one of the challenges now is in order to keep it up, you don't have to do all of them every year, but a lot of them every year or every two years or even more often sometimes. So like, like, what are we talking about?
- [04:56]
B
Like, what things? Dr.
- [04:57]
A
It could be a full body scan. It could be a carotid artery scan. It could be different types of blood work. It could be a dermatology scan, you know, for a couple years, a colonoscopy, an endoscopy. It could be PSA tests. It could be, you know, my father and my grandfather had. My father has. My grandfather had macular degeneration. And now that I'm 52, I have to get. Test it for my eye stuff more often.
- [05:23]
B
You don't even wear any kind of glasses?
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A
I wear one contact in my right eye.
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B
Oh, really?
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A
I didn't know. Yeah, I didn't wear anything. And then a couple years ago, I really felt like my distance viewing was. I don't know if that's which one that is, but is. Was really compromised. So he gave me contacts. But the problem was then either I. If they were in, I could see far but not close, or if they were out, it's the opposite. And I just again, in my experimentation said, what if I just had one and I did it and it works great.
- [05:51]
B
It's funny because they tried. I tried one contact once. The doctor's recommendation, I didn't like it. Like, I couldn't. It felt weird to have one on
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A
and works totally well for me. Like, I don't notice any difference between one or the other. I see up close perfectly. I still think my distance viewing is as good as it would be if I had one in the second eye, but it's good enough. Plus, you know, I sold my car the other week. I just don't really ever drive, so. And that was the only time where, like, my vision was really important. Was really important. Right. So, yeah, it's good. I mean, the biggest thing now would be if I take my contact out at night and then I want to watch like a game or something like that. It's. It's not Blurry, but it's not quite as in focus.
- [06:26]
B
Okay, so let's talk about the list. What's at the top of the list?
- [06:29]
A
I mean there are four. When you think about, when I think about my health, there's actually two different groups of four that I think are the most relevant intellectual frameworks. For me, one would be your practices and I think they really get grouped into exercise, nutrition, sleep, and then kind of health care which can be both physical and mental. Right. And then if you think about the other group of four would be what are the things that kill most people? So that's cardiovascular, neurodegenerative, metabolic and cancer. So I think about it both in terms of my day to day of am I working out, am I eating well, am I getting enough sleep, am I taking care of my mental health, all of that. And then in a bigger picture standpoint, how am I doing on those four different fronts? Am I making sure that I'm getting the right testing for it and then when things come up, am I doing the treatment right and is often just some sort of medication?
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B
But nonetheless, is there anything of all the various kinds of scans and things that you haven't done that you've been meaning to do? Like. No, you should go through them a little bit.
- [07:35]
A
I would say the only things at this point that I kind of have a constant list of things that I either in the process of doing or theoretically could do, but I'm not sure about. So I'd say in the process would be one, I took a test and I have mild to moderate sleep apnea, which I think is important because the downside of it is one, it just disrupts your sleep, you don't feel as good the next day. I get more headaches, things like that. And then two, it can lead to longer term issues. And so I just got fitted for like one of those mouth things because I don't want to wear that big machine on my face. It seems horrible.
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B
I don't understand how anyone does this
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A
thing's more like a mouth guard basically. And then you know, I'm always sort of working on myself on the mental health front as well. And this summer I am going to spend a week something called the Hoffman Institute, which is like described as 10 years of therapy in a week. But it's more somatic than it is.
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B
What does somatic mean? Your body.
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A
How do you sort of learn to deal with anxiety and stress and things like that physically?
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B
So I don't know anything. Where is this?
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A
There's a few of Them but you know, they're not year round. So the week that made the most sense for me happens to be outside of Calgary.
- [08:48]
B
Really? Like by Banff or whatever, I guess.
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A
I don't know. You fly to Calgary and then you drive like two hours or something.
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B
Calgary's a nice city.
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A
Have you ever been there? I have once and I think I'm gonna stay in Calgary for a day or two afterwards just cause apparently you need some time to just decompr. Supposed to be very intense. You don't have your phone at all. So I will be absent a true emergency. I will be completely out of touch. It's group therapy. I've talked to a lot of people who've done it. Some people have said it's incredibly hard and emotional. Others have said less so some people found it transformative, some people have said it's helpful. No one's ever said it wasn't helpful. But I think that from a psychological standpoint, I've been doing talk therapy for a very long time and I believe in it and I find it, I would say. Do you go to therapy?
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B
Yeah.
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A
So I would say for me at least roughly a third of the time I find it like incredibly helpful. Either because I'm going through something and he's talk about it or my therapist is very good unearth something that I hadn't thought about that impacts me. Third of the time it's like helpful and then a third time it's like I can't wait for this call to end or I'm making up shit to talk about. But for the first third for sure it's worth the effort. But I've also done, as we discussed, TMS for ocd. I did ketamine therapy. Huffman. I'm going to try. So look, I am someone that is a lot good and bad and I've always had a decent amount of anxiety and stress and I put a lot on myself and internalize things and like everyone have things in my childhood that are still hard to accept or deal with or anything else. And so you put that all together and I just, you know, as science continues to evolve, as research and thinking continues to evolve, I want to take advantage of whatever I can to maximize my well being. And so those are two specific things. There are a few things in life. There's one thing specifically, you know, so. So HHS and FDA just legalize 11 different types of peptides. I don't take. Do you take any peptides? I don't either. I started taking testosterone about a year ago in that. So, like, roughly when you're kind of a young man, it's like around 900 milligrams, whatever the. It is. And then as you get older, it falls. And so by my time, I was like, you know, my early 50s, it was like in the 400s. And I don't take a huge dose, but enough to get towards that 900 range again. And I think it's helpful at the gym. I think there's some help cognitively. So peptides are something that are, like, interesting to me. It's the kind of thing that I would try. The problem right now is that even though they've just. And I think even the legalization is not, like, in effect yet, they just said they're going to. There's no real regulation around it. Right. There's no, you know, the. Right now people take. Peptides are basically just getting shit from China or just like, there's no real sense of what's safe or what's not. And so, you know, if it were heavily tested and regulated and manufactured in a really, you know, thoughtful, deliberate way, that was, you know, clearly meeting standards, and there were research to show that, then the benefits is something that I would definitely consider, but I feel like that's at least a few years away.
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B
How much do you use AI in terms of any health stuff at. A lot.
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A
Once in a blue moon, I'll go down a rabbit hole and I'll. I'll go down. I'll go on a platform and I'll just input everything conceivable I can think of and say, what am I missing? Right. And there are a few things like. And again, this maybe gets to the question about the things you choose not to do. So, like, I lift three days a week. I do cardio three days a week. Of those, I do high intensity. One day I make sure I walk at least 8,000 steps a day. 10,000 is kind of a myth, I think. 8,000, sort of. Where the benefit kind of maxes out, typically.
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B
Is that right?
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A
Yeah. The 10,000 was literally a Japanese marketing campaign. And it just.
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B
Why does the benefit top out?
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A
Why does it think after a certain amount of mobility and steps and whatever else, whatever you know, cardiovascular and other benefit you're going to get from it has sort of peaked. Now, look, it's not also, I don't think it's like a hard thing in the sense that, like, my goal is to get 56,000 steps a week. And it doesn't mean that every day has to be exactly 8,000 if it's 4,001 day and 12,000 another day, that's okay, Right? But there doesn't seem to be a huge differential or benefit above that. But I don't stretch, right? And that's something that I should do. I know that. I just don't.
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B
You don't stretch. That's like a religious, like, conviction.
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A
I just don't do it. I don't like it, so I don't do it. And the truth is.
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B
Are you going to the place where they stretch you?
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A
You know, when I had a trainer, I did. He did stretch me. But when I stopped working with him and working on my own, which, other than the stretching has been totally fine, if not easier, quite frankly, because I have much more flexibility. But, you know, I work out six days a week, and I just kind of feel like that's a lot. And stretching is just another thing, and I'm not really doing it.
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B
Do you have any recurrent, like, physical, like, joint pain or like.
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A
I hurt my shoulder like, a year ago, and it was just turned out to be some combination. I got an MRI of like, bursitis, arthritis, and tendinitis. And so I've been going to. I got a shot, cortisone shot, and then I've been going to physical therapy and, and you know, I think, like everyone, I don't do the exercises at home, Right. So I, I. My physical therapist is great. I go once or twice a week. It's definitely helped a lot. It would be even better if I did it at home, but kind of like the stretching I just felt.
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B
So let's talk about diet. That's obviously a big daily thing. What is your versus just your macro view of, like, what foods are good for you?
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A
Yeah.
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B
Do you have any specific kind of theories or.
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A
Yeah, I mean, I do. Which is, you know, there are certain. Forget the kind of food. What are the types of nutrients you need? Right. So there's protein, obviously, and there's different views. So, like, the FDA would say you need like one gram of protein per kilogram of your weight. Some of the. More like the Huber Mints would say it's like 2 grams. I kind of split the difference. So I try to get about 125ish grams of protein a day, which is not impossible, but it's a lot. I don't have people got like 200 is like, that's fucking intense. But I do drink a shake every morning that has 42 grams of protein. Your body can't really absorb much more than that in One sitting.
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B
So I get about what's in your shake?
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A
No, no, it's like a prepackaged.
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B
Right. So you just put it in the blender and nothing.
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A
I just take it out. I just drink the bottle.
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B
Okay.
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A
Core Power Elite. You know, it has sweet. It's artificially sweet, and it has 8 grams of sugar, which is the most sugar I get in any one thing by far. And it also gets. Has like 700 milligrams of calcium, which is good, too. So there's protein. So, you know, I try to get one and a half grams per kilogram of my body weight. There's fiber. And that's basically when they tell you to eat fruits and vegetables, they mean get. It's in order to get enough fiber. And, you know, I know that I hit the hit or exceed the number every day also because I don't eat added sugar much. I mean, meaning just there'll be things like the protein shake they'll have if I don't eat any sweets of any kind.
- [16:25]
B
Do you just not have a sweet tooth or is it like.
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A
No, I do. This gets to sort of like my problem with weed, where it's like, there are things that I want. I cannot do something. But moderation's hard for me. Right. Like, I would eat ice cream with every meal if I could. Right. So as a result, I don't eat ice cream, you know, which sucks, but I don't. But I do eat a lot of fruit, and so I get a lot of fiber. And it is sugar. It's natural sugar. So the body does process it differently. There are some people who say that it's still sugar and therefore has that impact. Also for me, in addition to just not wanting added sugar for the health benefits, sugar causes inflammation. Inflammation exacerbates ocd. So the reason I actually stopped eating added sugar, which is also about a year ago, was an experimentation around ocd. But I have just generally been able to stick to it.
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B
So do you notice it if you do have ice cream or you just never.
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A
I just don't anymore. Yeah. So I don't even know. So protein, fiber, lack of sugar, calcium. So I just need, you know, you need like a thousand or eleven hundred milligrams a day. So I get most of that between my coffee in the morning because I take a lot of milk and my shake. I'm pretty much there on calcium. And then I get whatever else from, you know, some dairy, I guess, and then. And then of the various vitamins, you know, I get some of it from My food, some of it from. I take a bunch of different supplements. I get some of it from supplements. So, so, so that's kind of diet. And then I guess the question is,
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B
well, let's start a second because. So you do the shake in the morning and then, yeah, you, you do eat in restaurants quite a bit all the time.
- [18:10]
A
So that would. The. The biggest negatives I would have would be one, I eat in restaurants. I. So in restaurants all the time. And even if I'm ordering fish or whatever it is, they're trying to make it taste good. So there's stuff in there, right? So that's number one. Number two is I love food. I live in New York City. One of the reasons I live in New York City is because I love to eat. So like last night, you, me and Charlie went to Hainan Chicken House in Sunset park, which is like a well known place, and it was delicious. Weirdly, the one thing that wasn't delicious was the chicken.
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B
The other stuff was great.
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A
Everything was great. It was fantastic.
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B
The pork was delicious.
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A
The pork was delicious. Now, was that healthy? No. But, you know, to me, and tonight I'm going to this like Greek steakhouse in Astoria called Christos. I've never been before.
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B
Is that a place that's been around for a long time? I don't know.
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A
I think so. I'm not really sure. I would just. I was. I haven't had a steak in a couple of weeks and I really like steak. You know, again, I would eat steak and ice cream at every meal. So I really just felt like it and didn't. There's sort of two groups. There's sort of all the usuals. I've just kind of like been to all of them a lot. And then there are some new ones like Golden Steer and some others, but those are like, you have to like, work hard to get in. And it's like, I didn't feel like doing that either. And so I was like, oh, here's a place that's on a bunch of lists that I've never been to that looks interesting. And I love Greek food also. So, like, if you told me a steak and a Greek salad, like, that's a perfect meal. So there are things that I will have that are not ideal for my health. But you know, again, there are trade offs and a trade off that works for me now, maybe I'll live a little less, but I also might get hit by a bus this afternoon anyway is to, you know, I try to do everything to be healthy, but I definitely also enjoy my food, and I will pick meals where I'm just like, okay, I'm just gonna eat what I want. I don't eat much fried food, you know, but overall, I think my diet's reasonably healthy. And then Lyle and I. Lyle spends a week with me. Week with Harper, the week he spends with me. We were ordering in every night. And one, it was wildly expensive, but two, it was just really unhealthy. Even when we were trying to order healthy things, just, you know, unless you had sushi. So it's just the raw fish and nothing else. It was just generally not that healthy. Sushi and kind of Mediterranean were healthy. So we got a chef that comes in once a week and just cooks dinners for us that we heat up. And that's really healthy. Right.
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B
So he makes, like.
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A
He makes like four or five dinners, and then over the course of the week, we eat them. You know, there's still nights we go out or whatever, or go to a Knicks game or whatever it is.
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B
But what's the best thing he makes?
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A
He makes. Well, I only have him make poultry and fish. So salmon's really good. His chicken dishes are usually pretty good. And then there are other things, like he likes to make cod. And this week I found I was like, no more cod. Like, we don't like cod that much. You know, I love cod, but I
- [20:58]
B
don't have that much.
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A
Yeah, I mean, yeah. So I like that miso black cod, but he doesn't. I guess I could ask him to try to make that. But anyway, so. So that's diet.
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B
And so let's. Let's drill into exercise then.
- [21:11]
A
Yeah.
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B
Like, you sort of briefly went over your routine, but maybe you can tell me a little bit more about that. Sure.
- [21:17]
A
So when I lift, I do chest and back one day. I do shoulders and legs one day, and I do biceps and triceps one day. And then I do abs pretty much every day. And then I also try to do that hyperextension, which is, you know, back. It's lower back, but I feel like it's kind of core.
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B
I don't know what that is.
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A
It's like where you're. The listeners can't see me, but you're kind of at an inc. Like a inverse incline, I guess, whatever it is. So your legs are down and your head is up, and then you lower your upper body all the way down and bring it back up.
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B
Okay.
- [21:47]
A
So it kind of works your lower back. So I think if I'm working my lower back and my abs that kind of gets to my core. So that's. And then the other three days, I just feel elliptical. Because what I've realized, I don't like cardio. And what I decided was I need to do cardio. That I don't hate to do, and I don't hate to do the elliptical. So I'll do 40 minutes twice a week. You're supposed to do it. Supposed to. But like, this research would say in the Level 2 for your heart rate, which is a lot less than you would think, it's supposedly for some reason that has the highest cardiovascular benefit. It's actually hard to stay in that level. Cause, like, once you get a head of steam going, like, your heart rate just goes up more. I think if you're like a marathon runner, it stays really low, but I'm not. And then I do high intensity other day, which is basically four minutes really hard. Four minutes off, four minutes hard. Alternating for 40 minutes. Pretty much. So, yeah. So that. That's. But also, I don't play any sports at all. Right. Zero.
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B
So. And you never go for just like a run in the park or anything?
- [22:53]
A
No, no. I'll. I've occasionally been somewhere where the only thing they'll have is a treadmill. So I'll run a couple of miles if that's the case. On it, but only because it's my only option.
- [23:04]
B
And so you're. That. That, like, exercise schedule is kind of set. Like, you're not adjusting that or is there like a goal?
- [23:12]
A
No, it's set. You know, occasionally travel disrupts it, and occasionally I'll double up. So if I miss something, I can do, like, you know, it's a long workout, but I'll do, you know, weights and cardio. The same day. The same. Within the same stretch of time. Longer time, but at the same time at the gym. But I get to six almost always one way or the other. But that's all like. I don't know if you still do this, but I remember one time you came to our house upstate and you kind of disappeared for a while. And then I kind of looked over and you'd been in the pool forever and you were like, listen to a podcast and just like, what's it called? Where you're just like, it's treading water, trending water.
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B
Yeah.
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A
You still do.
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B
Yeah, I love it. I don't do it as much, but I. I love. It's so meditative. I mean, I need to. I. I was.
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A
Your legs killed, you know?
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B
Yeah. It's an Incredible exercise. I mean, I could do it for, like. I can do it for, like, two hours.
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A
Um, but it's great calories or what? What does it do?
- [24:00]
B
You know, it's mostly just the motion, like, the way your muscles feel after. I mean, you can. You're obviously tired, but, like, you get a kind of full body. Like. Like, most kinds of working out to me, like, end up, like, kind of stressing a few areas of my body that, like, you know, if you do them too much, they, like, they hurt more. Especially running. Right. Like, if you like. I run every day now, but I just run for, like, you know, I use. I do about a mile and a half. I do that. I do a mile really fast. Not really fast, but fast.
- [24:27]
A
How many days a week total do you exercise? Seven days. And so what's the breakdown?
- [24:32]
B
I do this more or less the same stuff every day, except when I'm swimming, too. So I swim, run, and I do the rowing machine. And I do, like, the. The stuff. Like the stuff that you do, the core stuff. Like, I do not lift. Why not? I really don't like it. It's boring. I mean, I. I do occasionally. Like, I. I sometimes realize I should lift. But the. The. The.
- [24:53]
A
Even if, like, you're listening to a good podcast, I just don't like it.
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B
I just don't. I hate the wait.
- [24:59]
A
Oh, well. Yeah. Though once you kind of learn how to do it, there's enough variation that there's not. I don't wait around much because I can always do something else for a body part.
- [25:09]
B
I've had trainers over the years, and I. I sort of. I know the techniques more or less. It's just. It's funny. It's like it doesn't suit my mood at the gym at all. Like, I want to be.
- [25:17]
A
Yeah.
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B
You know, but the one thing I
- [25:20]
A
will say, if you try, at least for me, but I. Apparently for men, this is pretty common, which is within the six kind of groups of body parts. There's some pushing and some pulling motions. So biceps and back tend to be pulling. I don't like those. Whereas chest, leg, shoulders, and triceps are pushing. And I usually like those a lot more interesting.
- [25:42]
B
So we've talked about medical stuff. We could talk a little more about that. But we've talked about diet. We've talked about exercise.
- [25:47]
A
Yeah.
- [25:48]
B
What about vices? So we are talking about ice cream.
- [25:50]
A
We have to talk about sleep.
- [25:51]
B
We'll talk about sleep. But you want to talk about sleep first. Yeah, let's talk about sleep. So, so. And you talk about having some sleep apnea now you measure your sleep, I assume.
- [25:59]
A
Well, yeah, so I don't, I have an OURA ring, but I don't use it. And it was, it was causing me too much stress. One I don't like wearing. I don't wearing stuff. I wear a necklace. But you know, even the necklace is really. I started doing it more after October 7th and when there was all of this, both Jews were. Israel was attacked. And then Jews started being persecuted all over the US for somehow being the aggressor when we were the victim. So I put a Star David around my neck and started wearing it out to be like, go fuck yourself. And I like it, so I just wear it anyway. But I don't like anything. I've never worn a watch. I don't wear rings. When I was married I wore a wedding ring, but I don't know. And so I didn't like it. And I also felt like I would almost in the middle of the night want to see what my data was. And it was like, this is too much. But I have an eight sleep mattress. They're not a portfolio company or client or anything, but it sounded like it for a second. And it does track my sleep in terms of resting heart rate, deep sleep, REM sleep, so I'll look at some of that. But the main thing is just I'm not a great sleeper naturally. And I think in part I have a lot of energy, in part anxiety, but also I prided myself for years on like, oh, I don't need sleep, I'll sleep when I'm dead. And you know, arguably to do still
- [27:25]
B
people who say that it was such a thing.
- [27:27]
A
Yeah, no, probably. I think it's an age and a maturity thing. But I think also look, you know, if the formula to me for you know, non linear career success, like something truly outsized is talent plus work ethic plus risk tolerance. The difference linear would be like you're a partner at a law firm, but then the risk tolerance stuff isn't necessarily there as much. But if you have those three things, you know, the work ethic part just includes working and you know, if you sleep six hours and you work those extra two instead of eight hours, that's two more hours of work a day. And so like, you know, it probably did contribute in some ways to me being able to do the things I wanted to do professionally, but obviously not good for you at all. For many, many, many years I was up at the latest at 5 every day and I have adjusted that pretty considerably to what, seven? So I go to bed later now as well. Partly also because as my kids became teenagers and their sleep habits changed, I tried to adapt a little bit to them. And also I've noticed with Lyle that if I don't make sure he goes to bed, he might not. So I stay up till about midnight to make sure that we're both kind of going to bed around the same time. And then he has to get up usually at 7 for school. So I get up at 7 and I wake him up and then have to go back four more times to make sure he's out of bed. Now that he drinks coffee, it's a little easier.
- [28:54]
B
He drinks coffee?
- [28:54]
A
Yes, I bring him coffee and that helps. But so, but sleep hygiene. So blackout shades. Although I would say again, I love living in New York. It's never dark enough. Like there's. Oh, even with blackout shades, there's light coming through.
- [29:08]
B
Really?
- [29:09]
A
Yeah. Maybe it's just where I live, but.
- [29:12]
B
So we can't stand blackout shades.
- [29:14]
A
I don't know what it is. Oh, I, I need it. I sleep at, you know, temperature. So 67 degrees for me is like a good sleeping temperature. And then I take Trazodone.
- [29:26]
B
What is that?
- [29:26]
A
It's a sleep medications prescribed and it helps. Sometimes I'll take a whole dose, sometimes I'll take half a dose. Sometimes I'll take half a dose to go to bed and half a dose in the middle of the night. But I will say I find it helpful. I have a great fart.
- [29:41]
B
Can you get to sleep without it or.
- [29:42]
A
I can, sure. It's actually, for me the problem historically has always been staying asleep, not, not falling asleep. So I mean, there might be nights like everyone where I just can't fall asleep for some reason and also my caffeine. So the research would say that once you go above 400 milliliters of caffeine in a day, it's too much. Now everyone's a little different. Obviously your tolerance might be higher or lower. So I, I kind of never get much below 400 because I do like and need caffeine. But I really try to cut it off, typically by like 11. I'm sitting here drinking a Celsius. Right now it's 10:51. Whenever I finish this in the call the next 10 minutes, that'll be it for me for caffeine today.
- [30:24]
B
Right.
- [30:25]
A
What's your caffeine?
- [30:26]
B
Yeah, I don't know what I only drink really caffeine in the morning. And I Don't have during the day,
- [30:31]
A
coffee in the morning.
- [30:32]
B
That's it. Yeah, but I drink a shit ton of coffee in the morning, so I probably get an insane amount.
- [30:36]
A
And what's your like? Have you always been a good sleeper?
- [30:40]
B
Yeah. Although it's funny, just the last year or so I've not. It's been a little bit up and down, but traditionally, yeah. I never had a problem sleeping, so. Vices.
- [30:47]
A
Yeah.
- [30:48]
B
We've talked before recently about you stopping weed.
- [30:54]
A
Yeah.
- [30:54]
B
And you were doing the marijuana anonymous. Have you kept that up?
- [30:58]
A
Not a little bit, not as much. I think I've kind of felt like in the beginning was really helpful. I just, there was support from a community that was useful to me. Over time, the meeting started to feel like, I mean, if you're in that meeting, you have some problems. And a lot of those people, I think are also kind of lonely and they were using their sharing time to just complain about their day. And after all, like, this is fucking excruciating. I don't want to hear these people complain. And so I haven't been in a while, but, you know, it's like, I'm glad I know it's there. I think it is a very helpful resource for a lot of people. I think it was helpful for me and if I feel like if I need to, I won't hesitate to jump back in. But. Yeah, but for me with weed, it's an all or nothing thing, right. Like, I'm not capable of doing moderations. My hope is that I have the strength to never do it again. I'm not naive enough anymore to think that I can guarantee that or that I could somehow switch to moderation. And I think submission in a way is part of the process, you know. But I really hope so. And I think for me, quitting weed was never hard. It was. There would invariably be some difficult moment where I would talk myself into letting myself do it and then I was right back in it. So, you know, when those moments come, I need to then have the strength and the discipline.
- [32:24]
B
Well, do you have a kind of system in mind for like what to do in those moments?
- [32:29]
A
Well, I think when they, if they come up, you know, it's less around a bad day and it's more around like some big bad thing happens, which does happen to all of us. And I think in those, when that's happening, I need to be super mindful and go to meetings and really avail myself of every resource possible.
- [32:50]
B
Do you have friends that like, in particular, like, that have a Lot of
- [32:53]
A
very supportive friends, including you. But I don't know anyone that's gone through marijuana addiction specifically. And I don't have a lot of friends that have had drug addictions. I mean, I had a lot of friends in college that could have used cocaine for a while, but I've actually never used cocaine because I would fucking love it, I think. But. So I've never tried it, but. But certainly a lot of friends that have had drinking issues and you know, so yeah, but I would say that I just like, I very much hope and pray, I do pray every day that I will not relapse.
- [33:27]
B
So what have you learned from dealing with this addiction that could be helpful to other people, to me, to other people in dealing with their.
- [33:36]
A
I mean, I think some of it is. You can't. The reason why something like maa, whatever is helpful is it's very hard to do it. Some people can, but it's very hard to do it alone. So one is a community of support helps. Two, if you do take medication, like I told my doctor, like, here's what I'm dealing with. And she adjusted some of my meds that I take for ocd. But you know, and I said I think it's helping. It's hard to know entirely. And then three is addiction is about emotional pain. So one of the reasons I'm going to go to the Hoffman Institute is given all of the work that I have put in and I still have issues, perhaps a different approach to them will be effective.
- [34:14]
B
So overall, what is the goal or the driving kind of thing? Longevity.
- [34:23]
A
It's two things. Some of it's longevity, but I am not one of those people that thinks a lot or worries a lot about death in that. And maybe this is because I'm a little spectrumy and a little binary.
- [34:34]
B
Is that why you're so comfortable in the cemetery yesterday?
- [34:36]
A
Yeah. No problem is that I want to live for as long as I can because I don't believe in an afterlife. But at the same time, you know, one, I don't control it. Two, I wrote a piece about this once and the universe is like almost 14 billion years old. And at best we'll live to like 100. And it's like 0.0000. There's like five zeros, one after the decimal point before you even got to one, or something like that of the universe's existence. So whether you live to 92 or 102 or 112, that math doesn't change. It's a relatively brief period of time and I want to, but. And I also know that I don't totally control all of it. I could get a type of cancer that is incurable or I could get hit by a bus or whatever it is. So all I can do on that front is just try to do the practices that will maximize my chances of living not just a long life, but a healthy life within that, right? There's sort of lifespan and health span and I think they're both pretty important. The other thing is, and this kind of gets back to a lot of generally my bigger intellectual framework. And part of what I like about Judaism specifically is the notion that the reward for living a good life is living a good life. And, and when I do the things where I'm getting enough sleep and I'm eating healthy and I'm exercising and I'm not abusing, you know, anything and I'm taking the right meds and going to therapy and everything else, I have a better life. I feel healthier, I feel happier, I feel calmer, I am more productive, I'm a better friend, parent, you know, boss, neighbor, whatever. And like, that's my goal, is to live the best possible life that I can while I'm here and maximize both my own well being in the ways that are important to me. And also for me specifically, the way that I've always judged myself has been on my impact on the world, which is partly generous and partly driven by insecurity. But either way, so all of these things to me are component parts of that.
- [36:47]
B
Is there any like, sort of area that you want to like, learn more about that? You're like, that's like a kind of frontier in terms of like how you could understand something more deeply or make even further changes to your, to your sort of like behaviors.
- [37:01]
A
You know, I, I do spend a decent amount of time reading about behavioral economics. I do spend a decent amount of time reading about, you know, health stuff. And I think it's just sort of discovering what I feel a little bit now is a lot of the happiness stuff just feels too rote to me. It's like I can't listen Arthur Brooks to another podcast. It's the same shit. And he's good. Like, I thought his last book was good, but like, I'd like to find some new thinkers that have a approach and a mentality that is, that is different. So, you know, if somebody wanted to
- [37:34]
B
like, just like someone who's living sort of a normal life, not a crazy, unhealthy person necessarily, but just like, listen to this and thinks like, wow, I kind of want to go towards what you're doing. What's like the first thing like today? What could they do?
- [37:48]
A
There's a couple just very basics, right? You can eat healthier, you can. If you don't sleep consistently seven hours a night, you can work on that. There are sleep hygiene things that I mentioned, and you can exercise. And I think that from what all the experts would say, exercise is the single most important thing because it not only has all the physical things, but it also has a huge impact on your mental health. And so I would say of everything, if you're not exercising enough exercise and
- [38:15]
B
is there anything that you're doing that you are actually like, wish you weren't doing or trying to like.
- [38:22]
A
Yeah, I mean, there are always things to. To work on, right? So I think I have anger issues. I don't think that they necessarily think someone like you would. Would that we'd be like, oh, yeah. Because I don't really act that way towards friends or family or employees or anything like that. But I've been trying to figure out where does my anger come from? And I've learned it's a few things. One is when I feel like my character is being attacked, that really makes me angry. Two, when I'm trying to do something good in the world, like pass school meals, whatever it is, and some asshole politician blocks it, that makes me really angry. And is that.
- [38:58]
B
But what's behind that, right? Is it related?
- [39:01]
A
I am trying so hard to be good, do good, make sacrifices, be generous, be tolerant. Like, you know, all the things that I aspire to be, like take work, you know, and I really try to put it in, you know, I certainly, from a financial standpoint, I give away more than half the money that I make. I've given away at least to the, you know, post tax, at least a third of the money that I've made in my life. I continue to spend millions of dollars a year on things that I believe in. And I invest my time, whether it's all the different things, we have a foundation, but also things like volunteering every week at the soup kitchen. And I try to just be generous day to day. And I walk around with these $10 Dunkin Donuts gift cards and I hand them out to people on the street or in hungry. And I try to do a lot of things. And I'm certainly not perfect by any means, but I feel like I try very hard. I feel like the stuff that I do is not performative. It's not people just tweeting and talking. I actually try to do shit. And then when people especially like that tend to criticize me or block the things that I'm doing to try to help people for their own sort of selfish purposes, it just fucking infuriates me. And so I would like to be able to handle those things more in stride. And look, there are times where a politician does block something I care about and the right response is to absolutely take their head off, but instead of me just erupting, it's to do it in a surgical, often vicious way. And, you know, whatever pain they feel, so fucking be it. Sometimes the more the better, but to do it in a bloodless, rational way as opposed to a things that are just driven out of anger. So that's something I'm definitely working on. The other thing I would say is, you know, and it's sort of related, which is I really do care about my impact on the world, but I care about it both. Both because it matters to me and also because I really want recognition for it. And I want to be able to do the things that I do without needing a ton of external validation for it. And I also want to be able to do them and understand that a kind of a cog in the wheel, right? My goal with mobile voting is I truly think it's the only scalable way to fix democracy. But that doesn't mean that I can do it all myself. And by the way, it is frustrating that I'm so bad at raising money for it because it feels like here I am with, in my view, the absolute right idea. And I have put so much into this and I can't get others to really help me. But also at the same time, it's going to take a long time and no major movement or change is really ever done by one person. And I have to accept that my work, everything I can do, has to be enough. Right? It doesn't have to be the full completion of it in a very short length of time and then full recognition for it publicly. You know what? I just made my screensaver. So Jalen Brunson the other day said, I'm not a star, I just want to win. And I believe he believes that. Right. I don't think he's just like a PR thing. And I actually put that on my screensaver. And then I have this electronic frame both at home and in my office, on my desk and put it on there too, because I think that's right. I think that, you know, all you can do is just be part of the process and try to get to the end result and try to be as humble about it as you can. And, but, but for him, that might come more easily than it does for me. And I'm not comparing myself to him, but you know, he's a better basketball player for sure. He's got a much better jump shot, but I'm working on that too. So those are two things. And you know, the other thing I would just say if you get back to the, like someone's listening to, they want to do one or two things is maybe just be mindful of, spend the time to figure out. And this is, by the way, part of what makes therapy useful is it's a forcing function. Where do you feel like your character has issues, that no one's character would be perfect, but ultimately, because you think the way you think it decreases your happiness, it decreases your well being selfishly. Right? And if you can identify those and then start to be mindful of those, that's the only way to start changing it. Right? It doesn't guarantee it, but at least it gives you a chance. And so I think taking the time to try to really think through that thoughtfully and then talk to people who have, you know, good at this stuff and then, you know, come up with things that you can do in kind of small, concrete ways to make adjustments, you know, that's, that's something that I think is helpful.
- [43:29]
B
When you were thinking about what we were going to talk about today, is there anything we didn't get to or you just felt like I didn't ask about her? No.
- [43:36]
A
I mean, obviously, if this is all being driven towards Eudaimonia and towards sort of the overall sense of well being, you know, two things we talk about a lot in this podcast, but are not maybe specific to physical health or even mental health are, you know, those two underlying things of relationships and unconditional love and support and things that give you meaning and purpose. And ultimately to me, you know, you can't have well being without those things. And so you can do all the health stuff that I just said and if you lack those two things, you're still probably not gonna be happy. Right? You know, we hear about all these people in tech who are like, you know, transfusing the blood of their kids and all this crazy man, you know, monitoring how many erections they get and all this stuff, like, great, good for you. But like, if you're ultimately a zero sum person, it doesn't fucking matter, you
- [44:22]
B
know, so when you read those stories about those guys. Do you sometimes think I should do some of this stuff like that? Or, like, do you?
- [44:28]
A
And most of it seems crazy, but, you know, sometimes people do things where then after enough study and scale becomes that they're right. It's a good, useful thing. And then I might do it. So, you know, and I don't envy anyone. I'm sure there are people who listen to this podcast like, this guy's a lunatic. He does all these things, right? So no. And you know, but I don't. But I just sometimes, and probably because I know some of these people, I don't get the sense that, like, an abundance worldview of love and support and meaning and purpose is what drives them. And I do think that if those things aren't central to your life, it doesn't matter how many longevity hacks you do, you're not going to ultimately lead a meaningful, happy life.
- [45:12]
B
Good. Well, that's a good place to leave it.
- [45:14]
A
All right, thank you. Firewall is recorded at my bookstore, PNT Net Ware, located at 180 Orchard street on the lower east side of Manhattan. We'd love to hear from you with questions, feedbacks or idea for a guest. Just email me at BradleyIrewind All Media or find me on LinkedIn. And to keep up with what's on my mind and my latest writing, please follow my new substack@bradleytus.substack.com thanks again for listening.