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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Welcome back to Firewall. I'm your host, Bradley Tusk. So our episode today is a weird one because it's something we've never tried before.
- [00:17]
B
So. So.
- [00:18]
A
Right. So the first thing is, you know, usually we're a fairly crisp 45 minutes per episode. We're going to go like Joe Rogan style today and just talk for as long as we want. And it could be a few hours. We've booked the studio for four hours, so it is possible.
- [00:34]
B
Four hours. It's booked, yeah.
- [00:35]
C
Okay.
- [00:36]
A
Did you have plans tonight?
- [00:37]
B
No, no.
- [00:38]
C
I don't know. I'm here.
- [00:39]
A
It's a Friday, so my friend Alex Coutts is here. So Alex has been on before as a guest on the more normal side of the podcast, which is in his role as CEO and founder of Indiegov, which portfolio company for venture fund. But he and I, he was sort of asking me before Alex came, kind of what prompted all of this. And I said, like, sometimes you have different kinds of dynamics with different people that you and develop kind of habits. And Alex and I weirdly developed a impromptu philosophical conversation discussion habit every time we talk. Yeah. Which is weird because why would that happen? But it did. And then one day I was like, you know what? It'd be kind of fun to just do this whole thing as a podcast and see what happens. So to be clear, I don't know if this is going to be good or terrible. I hope you like it. Let us know. But, Alex, welcome. Thanks for being here, man.
- [01:34]
C
My pleasure to be here. I like that we're setting people's expectations low.
- [01:37]
A
Very low. Yeah. Except the word very low. Hugo, how are you?
- [01:39]
B
I'm good. I'm good. I'm excited.
- [01:42]
A
So. All right, I'm just going to fucking jump into this, man. So true or false? We have the wrong equation for happiness in the US because we think a zero sum approach will make us happy when it doesn't.
- [01:55]
C
You know, this was a really tough one. You started big with this one. This is a tough one.
- [01:59]
A
I think about this a lot.
- [02:00]
C
Yeah, this is a big one. I mean, the first question for me is, do I think life is a zero sum game? Like, do I think that's statement? And then the other was, does it make sense to operate that way even if it is or even if it isn't? Because I think there's a lot of assumptions that we make implicit in that kind of worldview. So, first off, like, I think you're probably less of. Life is not a zero sum game.
- [02:20]
A
I don't see it that way. No.
- [02:22]
C
I think I'm probably more on the life is a zero sum game, but at certain levels. So at a very, very, like at a micro level, like individual, like I'm making decisions inside my company for work or this. I think for the most part it is a huge mistake to think about things as zero sum level. I think creating value freely and kind of expecting there to be like abundance mindset.
- [02:42]
A
That makes a lot of sense.
- [02:43]
C
Yeah, yeah. I think like in the long term there is no zero sum. Right. Like technology and innovation expands the bounds of what economies, countries and, you know, areas and businesses can possibly do. So there is no zero sum game there. So I think all that makes sense.
- [02:55]
A
By the way, just I looked this up the other day. So we are one planet in one galaxy and there are billions of galaxies, right. So like the notion, like it depends on how you define zero sum. So if you're saying like there's only enough food on the island for this many people, okay, that sort of feels zero sum. Right. But in any other aspect of life, you were talking about technological and economical sort of expansion of the universe. Just the universe itself. Like I'm not one of these Elon Musk, let's all move to Mars. But like we're such a spec that of course there's so much more out there that does not require a zero sum way to look at things.
- [03:40]
C
Yeah, that's kind of my point. Right. Is it like there are situations in life at a very micro level where things just feel zero sum.
- [03:46]
B
Right.
- [03:47]
C
Like I either get this job or she gets this job or something like that.
- [03:50]
A
But in reality she's been investigated for murder twice but never charged.
- [03:53]
C
Well, knock on wood. Obviously we'll see. The charges aren't done yet. No, but my point largely is like, you can't validate whether or not it is or isn't true as a maximum. But I can validate for sure that if you operate that way, it will not work out for you particularly well.
- [04:08]
A
So where are you zero sum?
- [04:10]
C
Yeah, so I don't know that I am. I think I have like an abundance mindset in the way that I look at things. But philosophically, that's.
- [04:15]
A
We've been friends for a while now. Like if someone said to me, is Alex a zero sum or abundance mindset? I would say he's an abundant. He's an abundance mindset with a stoic philosophy and is in some ways religious.
- [04:30]
C
Yeah, that's a very nice way to put it. There have been times in My life like before you met me, where I was cutting people's heads off for a living, I was directly competing against other companies for specific things and I wanted them to lose so that we could win.
- [04:41]
A
Yeah.
- [04:42]
C
And I like that. I thrive in a competitive environment like that. But I don't think that's my default setting. I think your default setting being abundance mindset is a huge empowering thing, but there are times when you gotta hoist the black flag and start cutting people's heads off.
- [04:55]
A
And yeah, by the way, I don't view those. But that's to me not look so like you, but I'd say even much more so. Politics is often a binary industry. Right. You win or lose the election, the bill passes or it fails. And so we cut people's heads off all the time. Yeah, maybe this is just sociopathic behavior, but like I don't even think about that when I think about sort of having an abundance mindset or not or how I engage with the world or not. Right.
- [05:25]
C
Like everyone in politics looks at the world as zero sum, it seems.
- [05:28]
A
No, I think, I mean again, I think there are so few industries, if any, that are as binary as that one. So like, I think if anything is going to do that, bring along that mindset, that's politics. But no, I don't think so. I mean, I think, look, it's interesting if you think about it is the, you could define the two parties as Democrats would say we're an abundance party and the Republicans are a zero sum party. The Republicans would say we're an abundance party, but just with a different and better concept of abundance and organization of society than the Democratic one. Right. And I think there, I could see arguments for both. And by the way, there are also zero sum Democrats.
- [06:13]
C
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't, I see a lot of zero sum operating. I mean we, we obviously sell the politicians we sell to. You know, I spent a lot of time meeting with politicians, especially on the campaign side. I would say everything is zero sum when you get into office. I don't know that everything is zero sum.
- [06:26]
A
The best, the best people in office are not zero sum. Yeah, right. I mean, because at the end of the day, to me at least, when you think about every problem, societal problem, right. Whether it is hunger or housing or health care or war or energy or anything else, I believe that there is enough supply to meet demand globally. Meaning it's not distributed the right way, distributed among multiple countries, multiple economic systems, legal systems, all kinds of stuff. But the world has done an Incredible job since about 1650, in expanding its capacity, its ability to help people live better and easier and healthier lives, and ultimately really radically expanding human rights. I mean, just, you know, some terrible things have happened in that period of time, like World War I and 2, the bubonic plague and all that kind of stuff. And I'm not arguing that the colonial system is what you would want to have, but. But at the same time, they, you know, I think we went from a billion population to 8.2. Right. In that period of time, like the world just expanded in an exponential way in every conceivable facet. And I think as a result of that, we both could meet everyone's needs. And I think that in doing so, maybe this sounds very Pollyannish, but that we would be a much more functional, happy society globally. So then the question is, what does it take to do that? Is it realistic to do that? All of that, and those are fair debates. And as someone who has legislated and everything else, like, there's compromises and choices and things that fail and whatever else.
- [08:30]
C
Well, you grew up when, like Malthusian economics, like Thomas Malthus was, was still very, like a dominant idea, right? Like the world's gonna run out of food.
- [08:38]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [08:39]
A
When you grew up, like a decade older than you.
- [08:41]
C
Yeah, when I was a kid. Like when I was a kid. When you were 40 or 50. No, I mean, it was still kind of a dominant idea. Right. Which is. Is it like we're careening towards this, like, unavoidable future? Everybody's going to starve to death. And every movie it seems like it was made in the 90s was like a post apocalyptic.
- [08:57]
A
That's why I'm a long term believer in AI. I'm worried about it short term, but I do think more begets more, and I think AI in 20 years will probably get us to that point.
- [09:09]
C
Yeah, that's one of the things I'm fascinated about is like, I think we've just. I mean, I think it's not debatable. We've largely disproven the Malthusian economic premise. Right. Which is like, we're all going to die of hunger. Right. Because what we've seen is technological advancements that increase, like, you know, per capita food production and like, density of nutrition is amazing.
- [09:25]
A
Right.
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C
And human development indices have continued to go up.
- [09:27]
A
All right, question number two. We're making so much progress. True or false? Capitalism, when taken to its logical conclusion, which is what we have here in the US actually causes misery Oh, I.
- [09:41]
B
Mean, does, but, but the question is, is what do you get for the amount of misery it causes? Right? I mean there is in fact misery. There's a lot of misery on the streets, which is probably the wealthiest city in the United States, one of the wealthiest in the world. And there's, you know, I guess the question, are you saying does it cause it. Does it? Are mentally ill people on the streets.
- [10:02]
A
Of New York cause it? When I wrote the question that wasn't how I. Okay, that's a, that's a way to look at it. Yeah. The way that I was looking at it more is if there is a system that basically tells you through every form of advertising and media, everything else, you can only be happy when you have this, when you have that, when you have more, and you're constantly chasing something that can't be achieved and you have. If capitalism, completely unchecked is just about. It's a zero sum as it gets. Right. It's the accumulation of wealth and status as the only worthwhile things in life worth having and living. And because those things, there's never such thing as enough. And because if you have the 1%, then the other 99% are by definition losing that a completely unchecked version of capitalism really produces significant societal unhappiness.
- [10:59]
C
See, here's my. I'll be the devil's advocate if that's okay. Yeah, I'm wearing all blacks is perfect. I reject the premise a little bit because I think that's concatenating materialism with capitalism. I think capitalism can drive materialism, certainly because it's like a linear pursuit path towards like economic growth and efficiency, which is basically what capitalism is.
- [11:18]
A
But let me argue the premise of capital.
- [11:20]
C
Sure.
- [11:21]
A
I would say capitalism is about the ability to sell somebody something. Right. A product or a service. And the sales process is in many ways designed to dangle true happiness over your head when you buy said object.
- [11:43]
C
Yeah. So the marketing pitch of capitalism.
- [11:45]
A
Yeah, but that's a huge fucking part of it.
- [11:47]
C
It's a lot of marketing.
- [11:49]
A
There's no such thing as capitalism. There's no such thing as the market. If there's no selling and buying. That's what a market is.
- [11:55]
C
Yeah. So I'm a real Frederick Hayek guy. I'm a real free markets like capitalist guy. And to me. So when I define capitalism, what that means is a system that basically leverages maximum personal freedom animated by a self interested profit motive to create and allocate scarce resources and value. And so what that means is I'm basically, in more plain language, giving every single person the ability to freely participate in the system and create value and distribute it very efficiently, versus the alternative of that is centralized control. It's either completely diffuse or it's centralized.
- [12:26]
A
Well, right.
- [12:27]
C
But that's all I could have.
- [12:29]
A
Right, Right. So then let's. There's this. I was thinking about this the other day. Right. So you have this range. So there'. A communist approach to running an economy would be completely centralized, everything emanating from the government. In the absence of a market. We know that doesn't work.
- [12:49]
C
Bad news bears.
- [12:49]
A
Right. The US system of capitalism, which I would argue is about as far as it gets in the world, is one that produces a lot of economic opportunity and upside. But I would argue at least the premise of this question is a lot of if the ultimate goal of having all of these resources, especially any beyond meeting your basic needs, is to produce happiness, if then in order to achieve that you have to do something that is almost guaranteed to make everyone feel dissatisfied and unhappy, zero sum, Then. Right. Then that's not necessarily the most effective system. Right. So then you get. At least this is how my head was going the other day when I was thinking about this. So now let's move back 10, 20 degrees to like sort of a northern. Getting back to northern Europe now like a northern European system where as Hugo and I've talked about a lot on this podcast, when you look at the countries that self report the highest in happiness, which tend to be mainly like the Scandinavian countries, are usually always at the top.
- [14:01]
C
Deeply homogenous, small population.
- [14:03]
A
Yeah. But also just, I think the thing that they have that really is in some ways outstanding is the concept of enough. Right. And one of the reasons that they are happy is not that they're like ecstatic and blissful, it's that they're not dissatisfied. And the reason they're not dissatisfied is because they're happy with having what they need as opposed to more, more and more. Right. Which. So they're not. That's not capitalism at its full logical conclusion. That's like 10, 20 degrees south of that. Right?
- [14:35]
B
Yeah.
- [14:35]
A
And so then I was like, well, I guess that's the answer. But then I was like thinking about it, so philosophical. But it still also only works if society, you have an economy that innovates and grows and changes. Right. And the US clearly does that. Other than China's in its own world.
- [14:55]
B
Right.
- [14:56]
A
China does that better than anyone else and sounds like, well, maybe having that version of contentment is A real inhibitor on innovation and all of that for sure. So then the question was like, okay, well, and, and, and to back that up, the only I think major tech company to come out of Europe in the past 30 years, like Spotify. Right. Like there's really nothing.
- [15:21]
B
Well, there are a couple of the ones that are like, turn out to be criminal enterprises.
- [15:24]
A
Yeah, yeah, right. Or just like Wirecard or whatever or just like rip offs of U.S. companies in Germany that never really amount to that much. Sure, right. So, so you don't have the innovation, but you also don't have the dissatisfaction. So the question is, could you have satisfaction and innovation? Yes. And you know what, that all comes back to where this conversation started. Immigration. Because if the US as long as you have hungry people, and by the way, you can radically expand H1B visas so that you can say we want a lot more of, you know, that kind of stuff. Right. If you have a lot of hungry people, arguably you could balance the feeling of contentment that might drive a little less growth and hunger. But by layering in these new people all the time who clearly are not gonna be where they wanna be when they get there, that that combination could get you there.
- [16:21]
C
I don't think it's immigration that does it. I think it's religion and the sacred that does it. And so I think like capitalism, unchecked or unmoored, without a sacred belief system leads to materialism and misery and all the things that postmodernist got us over of the course, course of the past 15, 20, 30 years. Capitalism needs to be anchored, in my opinion, with a transcendent belief system and ideally one that's broadly shared but doesn't have to be the same.
- [16:42]
A
Wait, so say more about that. What's the interplay in your mind between religion and capitalism?
- [16:50]
C
So again, definitionally, to me, let's just talk from a secular perspective. Let's divorce and just talk about what religion is as an entity is a shared belief system and basically an accumulated store of knowledge of how to live life in a good way. That to me is like the most secular definition of religion. And so that is something that is able to control base human impulses in a way that no vehicle humans have ever created is able to do at a mass scale. Religion is the most effective thing at controlling that. And so if materialism and running away with capitalism into like this materialistic toilet bowl that we're like circling is like the worst possible scenario, I don't think immigration is strong enough to fix that. I don't Even think culture's enough to fix that. I think you need a transcendent belief system that anchors it. And in the US we used to have that. That's why I think it feels like it's.
- [17:30]
B
You have just the sort of Protestant ethic or like. What are you talking about?
- [17:34]
C
Could be. Yeah. I mean, I'm Greek, so, you know, I don't know anything about Protestants. That's. That's outside my zone of knowledge. But, but was there ever like a.
- [17:42]
B
Do you think there was a singular sort of faith in the United States.
- [17:46]
C
That was the, you could say broadly Judeo Christian values, Protestant work ethic, and.
- [17:50]
B
Then northern Europe stuff? Now, is there a. I don't. The only country I know fairly well is Sweden, and I don't. I don't think of the religion being the sort of driving force there.
- [18:02]
C
So the funny thing about these northern European countries, a lot of people look at them and say they're happy and they're secular, but the truth is they're built on hundreds and hundreds of years of deep religious, cultural integration of religion. And now maybe they're floating away from it. But it doesn't mean the vestige of that that are guiding their culture are gone.
- [18:17]
B
Right. Yeah. It does seem to become more cultural, though. So that, that is, that is. It seems to have sort of embedded itself in a non.
- [18:24]
C
Yeah. And if Dostoyevsky was sitting here, he would tell you, the longer we migrate away from like religion actually controlling the more abstract we likely we are for society to lose itself. And I believe that.
- [18:33]
A
Yeah. All right, so let me now challenge your underlying belief system, which is the lack. The reduction. Religiosity in the United States is reflective of a larger trend of reduction of faith in institutions across the board, whether it's government or media or the church.
- [18:55]
C
Or higher ed or major league baseball, whatever it is.
- [18:58]
A
Right. And the world that you're longing for is a world that is more institutional, more establishment, more bought into a core set of beliefs that, you know, maybe are designed for the greater good or maybe are designed by some people for their own good. Right. We now have a far greater democratization in my view of beliefs, because people aren't as wedded and forced to be wedded to institutions, and they are able to see different viewpoints come to their own conclusions. I understand this misinformation. I understand there's a lot of sort of.
- [19:40]
C
Yeah, I was gonna say, do you think that's what's actually happened?
- [19:42]
A
Well, I just. From a broad based standpoint. Right. Forget it. We can get into the specifics of it. But the democratization of viewpoints, even if it leads to a less shared collective morality, may be really good. Because if you don't trust that the institutions were acting on the people's behalf in the first place, then disempowering those institutions might be a good thing. And honestly, the greatest reflection of everything I just said is technology and the Internet especially, which is something that you spent your whole career doing. So I don't tell them that. So by, by definition kind of. Yeah, you know, like you're a tech, you are a tech guy and like tech is in many ways both the culprit or the savior in a way of opening up the world, which of course is going to decrease religiosity, which of course is going to decrease the sort of ethic of Judeo Christian values into the day to day culture.
- [20:51]
C
That's fascinating. I mean there's a lot in. I'll unpack a couple parts of it. So first off, I am a tech guy. You hit that on the head. The difference is I hate technology. I leverage technology, but I look at it. I don't. I'm not a tech utopian. When I lived in the Bay Area, which I did for almost 15 years, there's a lot of tech founders who think technology has moral value, that it is like a pursuit in and of itself that is virtuous. I don't believe that at all. I think technology is purely an engine of convenience. It takes things that we already want to do and it makes it easier. Now I think there are very negative ways that that can be used because effectively what that means is that it's an accelerant to human behavior, just like the Internet is. Everybody was interested in, you know, stalking their ex girlfriends, but the Internet made it a lot easier and probably a lot more people do it now. Right. It becomes like much more dangerous. So I think accelerant is problematic. But all the problems that you mentioned, in my opinion are not an outcome of technology's growth. I think technology has been elevated as a value because religion has faded away, because there isn't like a transcendent anthropomorphic belief system that anchors my mind.
- [21:47]
A
I think technology wouldn't have happened if religion hadn't found faded or the two even had.
- [21:51]
C
I don't think they would have been that correlated. No, I know. Well, you mean if like the Catholic church was running like an inquisition in New York right now and like stopping innovation?
- [21:58]
A
Well, it's an extreme actually. It's funny, I was. Yeah. I was going to say I don't see any connection at all, but then I remembered saying that I've said publicly for that cryptocurrency was effectively born during the Vietnam War. Interesting, because the Vietnam War, I think was the first time that the government got caught lying to the public in an era of television. Right. And I think that as a result of that, that was the beginning of the end. Right. And then you fucking had Watergate after that. And then oil, like it just went bad for a long time. And I know Reagan sort of changed it a little bit, but Reagan might have changed it in terms of like the politics, the even maybe the vibe, but like the end of the day, he didn't turn around faith in institutions. Right.
- [22:45]
B
So I mean, not at all.
- [22:47]
A
Right. So we've been on this Trend now for 60 years.
- [22:51]
C
Sure.
- [22:52]
A
And arguably cryptocurrency in its pure form, before you get to like the, you know what it became, it's just a financial vehicle, was the lack of belief and trust in central systems and governments and banks. And therefore people are saying, I would rather throw my lot in with like minded strangers through a form of new technology that we can control. Independence of any sovereign.
- [23:19]
B
Yeah.
- [23:19]
A
And I. And that was their worldview. And that's a worldview to me that was effectively birthed of the loss of faith in institutions. And I think what you're talking about is the loss of faith generally in the church. Well, generally. And in religion.
- [23:34]
C
Yeah, yeah, I think so. I mean, there's a really compelling case to be made. Like the Summer of Love was like the zenith of the American cultural experience. And after that, like, we started just assaulting every institution to the point where, and I would call, we've been in this like prolonged age of rationalism. I think you and I have talked about that before. I think an age of romanticism is coming because I think rationalism runs a its course. But rationalism and post modernism, it just basically eats everything. It's like a cannibalizing deconstructive. It uses ironic deconstruction to go at the heart of everything. Right. Using memes and humor and the Internet to basically make everything seem fetid and rotten and terrible. And I agree completely. I think that's what's happened and I think it's really, really messed up. And I think that's the tragedy of our age is like why that has happened and how do we not do that anymore? How do we start to believe in things again? Build public trust again, authenticity.
- [24:22]
A
Well, look, honestly, the audience is sick of hearing me talk about this, but mobile voting, at least for one of the institutions, at least for government, in a world where the two sides can't work together without losing their jobs, by definition, we can't get hard stuff done. We can't get hard stuff done. And the only incentive for politicians to keep their jobs is to act like fucking idiots, is that people lose all faith and trust in God.
- [24:49]
C
Sure.
- [24:50]
A
But if we change the underlying political incentives so that politicians now have to start working together and behaving differently in order to keep their jobs and stay in office, then they actually do start getting things done. And as they start getting things done, that should start to rebuild trust a little bit. So I'm not saying it's like the cure to everything, but I do think there are mechanisms I want to.
- [25:12]
B
It's funny because Alex was talking about sort of romanticism or the return of.
- [25:15]
A
Romanticism, and then, then I came back to mobile voting.
- [25:19]
B
Well, you came back to mobile voting, but I wonder, it's a good entrepreneurial. What is the connection between trust and institutions and like a sort of romantic or a return to romanticism? How are those two things related?
- [25:29]
C
Yeah, yeah. So I mean, so when I, when I again always start with like term definition, like when I talk about the age of rationalism, what I basically mean is like we look at everything non romantically, we look at everything critically. We're looking to break things down as opposed to build things up. It's hard for us to be romantic about the ideas of even America. Right. Like, it's funny, I'm very pro America. I bleed red, white and blue. I talk about it. It's why I founded indigov, all those things. And when I talk about it to the, to the employees at indigov, and I do it literally every company meeting. I talk about what I think America is, why I think it's important. The ideals that created it, imperfectly realized however they may be. I sound insane, which is crazy. Like there are parts of this country and I lived in San Francisco where like putting an American flag up outside your house is considered hate speech. And that sounds like an extreme Fox News whine, but it genuinely isn't. Like, if I wore an American flag shirt around San Francisco ten years ago, people would look at me like a smooth brain racist. And I'm like, what the heck is going on here? And so we have assaulted who we are as a group, so much so that we can't have a romanticized view of it anymore. And I think that has to change. And so what I want, what I want for the world more than anything is like the age of rationalism and ironic deconstruction to end. And I want us to begin to build systems and things that we think are better and that we think we can believe in. The problem is the Internet fundamentally undermines that. Like, the Internet is designed for hot takes, right? Like, you know, the things that, you know you do on the news or that I've done in podcasts or whatever that get the most traveler are people coming in and saying, well, this thing that you thought you knew forever is completely wrong. And here's three things that you should think about.
- [27:00]
A
Or.
- [27:00]
C
Right, right? Or like. And so the entire Internet is built around like this prolonged age of rational deconstruction. And I don't know how that changes. Maybe AI completely eviscerates the structure of the Internet.
- [27:11]
A
And can I just wonder, how do you think it would do that?
- [27:14]
C
Yeah, so I mean, I think the entire structure of the Internet is broken, fundamentally. I thought it's broken for a long time. When they started like Mosaic, the first browsers came around, they really heavily relied on hyperlinking and effectively these pigeon rank algorithms, ranked page results for meta crawlers. That ended up being Google and everybody else. I don't think that's an efficient way to access content. I don't think that's an efficient way to navigate content, consume content. If I want to learn about motorcycles, I go to Google and I get 35,000 pages on motorcycles. That's crazy. If AI can semantically reason all that content and present it to me in the exact way that I need it, why do I need the object permanence of a website anymore? It doesn't make sense to me, right? Why do I need all these different websites?
- [27:54]
A
But wouldn't you. Okay, but you're not a news website. But you are a store, right? I mean, don't you need a website to be able to sort of show the inventory and accept payment and all that kind of stuff?
- [28:09]
C
Maybe not. See, I think AI kills you out.
- [28:11]
A
How would you. But how would. So basically you would say on Anthropic or whatever, I want this sweater in this color. Anthropic would just become Amazon. Or is it?
- [28:28]
C
Well, I think that's one of the reasons some of these AI companies are starting to build browsers, because they see the logical conclusion of what they're doing, which is like, I don't need the UI of Shopify anymore. I would rather have like information contextually presented to me exactly when and how I need it. And if something can semantically reason my needs, it can do that.
- [28:44]
A
Right.
- [28:45]
C
With a relatively light lift, why do I need to go to a website and browse? And maybe some people want to browse, but that's a light lift for AI, can give you a browsing opportunity and contextually present that ui. And so I don't know, where is.
- [28:55]
B
It getting that information from if there's no website?
- [28:57]
C
That's the question. How does content get fed back up into these engines that have effectively stolen the entire Internet, which is probably why OpenAI was a nonprofit at the beginning.
- [29:05]
B
Anyway, more than the Internet. Right. It's stolen everything.
- [29:07]
C
Everything. Right. But like, yeah, so if we stop creating content and putting it into websites, how does OpenAI have enough content to steal to substantiate the future of what we need?
- [29:14]
B
Right.
- [29:15]
C
It's a very good question. I don't know the answer to it, but what I know is the economic model for websites come up is likely to change in a way that will disincentivize people creating things the way they have been doing. And so I don't see it making sense anymore, the structure of the Internet, like five years from now, ten years from now.
- [29:31]
B
So if, if, if creators are disincentivized, I mean, then AI, the AI companies will have to build the incentives into it. Otherwise things just come to a standstill, right?
- [29:44]
C
Perhaps. Or they start generating more of the content themselves. I don't know. Now, can they build goods themselves? Probably not.
- [29:50]
B
Yeah. You still need someone to make the sweater. But I wonder, does it also create like, the thing that occurs to me is like, you know those like John le Carre movies where they show people like, you know, exchanging secrets like on a park bench, you know, like, I.
- [30:05]
A
Feel like that that's called the drop.
- [30:07]
B
Thank you. Thank you, Bradley. But the, I kind of think of that as a metaphor for like where things will go back to is that you'll have to build these super kind of private, separated out domains that AI can't touch. Right.
- [30:23]
C
Just two guys on a non indexable. I mean, you can make non indexable websites called the dark web, but yeah, maybe it'll be like a new dark web for non AI.
- [30:30]
B
Is that actually what is technically the dark web is that it's inaccessible?
- [30:34]
C
Well, the dark web is a lot of things, but basically it's like a ton of unindexed sites that you need to have like direct IP addresses to access or use a Tor browser to like navigate it. But it's not like getting indexed By Google. Right. That's why it's dark.
- [30:45]
B
But it could be indexed by AI or at least explored by AI. Right.
- [30:50]
C
The way they construct the websites. Or these properties would make it difficult, put it that way. Yeah. Silk Road doesn't want to be found. Right. It's not going to make itself easily found. But, but back to your question on like the capitalism stuff. I, I think you have to separate materialism from capitalism and I think the antidote to materialism is religion. But to me, capitalism hasn't failed us. The version of market intervention over the past 50 years has failed us. And so there's an amazing chart. I actually brought it for you because I wanted to show you. That's from the Bureau of Labor Statistics that shows price changes over time with like different goods. And so it shows like price changes for certain things like you know, housing, education, medical services has gone up dramatically.
- [31:29]
A
Yeah.
- [31:30]
C
If you scroll up actually a little bit further, the, the, the index for regulatory capture and coverage of those industries is highest of the ones where the.
- [31:37]
A
CPI is going up to the same time I see this, I see it meaning two things. Right. There's certainly regulatory capture and all that other stuff.
- [31:46]
B
I feel like you should sort of try to describe what's what you would say.
- [31:49]
A
Yeah, sure, good point. So it's a chart of price changes for selected US consumer goods, services and wages from January 2000 to June 2022. So a really long time frame. And what effectively shows is like hospital services are 200% more expensive over the last 22 years. TVs are almost 100% less expensive than they were. So basically everything that's less expensive are all physical goods, cars, furniture, clothes, computers, toys, TVs. And then everything that is way up are more services. Right. So hospital services, college medical care services, child care services, food and beverage services, things like that. And then housing, to be clear, also is up about 80%.
- [32:40]
C
Heavy government intervention and free market dynamics.
- [32:42]
A
Yeah, I think that's true. But I will say it's interesting because this is slightly leftist of me, but it reflects two things. It certainly reflects all of that, but it also reflects that probably what has happened is people in those industries have become better paid and they have more benefits and they have more economic security. And it's a wealth transfer to be sure, but I'm not sure it's a bad wealth transfer transfer. If the minimum wage goes up, then you're going to have obviously the services now increase in cost inflation way above the good. So like, I'm just, like I'm not sure it's all necessarily the product of bad forces.
- [33:24]
C
Well, yeah, I mean just take like one for instance, right. And listen, I can't, I can't dispute that fact with a bunch of these because I'm not experts on each one of these industries. But let's just take college as an example. Like the advent of FAFSA and student loans, like government backed student loans, dramatically exploded. How many people could afford college, which is a good thing, and how much they could pay to afford college. I went to University of Maryland, great state school. But when I went there, we just won a national championship. A lot of money coming in from that. But also, I mean you look at the amenities of University of Maryland, which is amazing, and I enjoyed them thoroughly. I mean you've got a gym facility that's like 10,000 times nicer than it probably minimally has to be. You've got all these different services and things.
- [33:59]
A
Well, but that, I mean higher ed seems to have two fundamental problems. Right? Fundamental problem one is what you said, which is the economic structure of it doesn't make any sense. Right. It's way too expensive and has grown for the sake of growing without any actual real need for much of it. Right.
- [34:21]
B
Well, without improving the core function of it.
- [34:25]
A
Right.
- [34:25]
B
Your kids better educated by 200%.
- [34:28]
C
I can read less good than my grandfather.
- [34:30]
B
I can read less good.
- [34:31]
C
Right.
- [34:31]
A
Yeah, that's the point.
- [34:32]
B
Right, so, so you like the output is basically stayed the same or perhaps. Well, I mean, maybe the number of kids educated is great, but if it's just the cost, you're not getting a 200% better product. Right.
- [34:42]
A
I think the other thing is, so when did sort of going to college become not the norm, but, but like the, you know, if you were someone who graduated high school, you'd have a, you know, a decent shot at going to college. 50s, 60s.
- [34:58]
C
It was my parents in my, in my family before that, none agreed.
- [35:02]
B
My, my grandfather, my grandfather dropped out of school in eighth grade.
- [35:05]
A
Okay.
- [35:05]
B
So then my dad, my uncle.
- [35:07]
A
60S, 50s, 60s. It's also possible that over that 60, 70 year period we had a view which was that everyone would benefit from a four year liberal arts college degree. We tested it and kind of what we're learning 67 years later is like, nah, that wasn't actually. Right. Like some people, some professions do, a lot of people, and it's not in my view just like trades, it could be anything. But a lot of people really want to just go to school for two years, learn the thing they need to know and go do it. And a lot of industry, a lot of jobs don't allow people to take out lots of debt for totally unrelated education to what the jobs do. So you know, you put that all together and I think like it was a good experiment to try, but it turns out that like, you know, you probably only need half the capacity that you have for the traditional approach and then you probably need 2x or more the capacity for new stuff.
- [36:14]
C
Yeah, yeah. Do you think colleges, I mean, your kids are obviously about to go to college, they're super smart. Do you have any misgivings about that? Do you think it's a good or bad move?
- [36:21]
A
Yeah, I mean it, it's good for. Look, there's two things. So there's college, there's. And then there's. Let's talk about grad school too. So for college, I still think all of the economic data shows that there are massive differences in, in total income over the course of a lifetime to somebody goes to college and doesn't go to college. So I don't think it's a college, yes or no question. I think it could be what type of college, what type of degree, whatever else. Now for my kids, they're really lucky in that I can pay for any education they want. So sure, of course they should go get a four year liberal arts degree and study where they find interesting and have a good time because there's no reason not to for them. Right. But that is a very, very small percent of this country. So, you know, like I took out loans for my parents, paid for college, I paid for law school and for law school I took out loans I didn't pay back till my mid-30s. Did it work out? Yeah, I mean obviously I did pretty well financially, but like not because of the law degree. Right. So like you can question whether that was a rational economic decision. It might not have been. Right.
- [37:33]
C
Yeah.
- [37:34]
B
I will say this about it just because it comes up a lot, the law school, just in terms of your sort of like education as a, you know, a citizen and as a, even as a business person seems pretty important. Like you reflect on it a lot. You have a lot of relationships from there.
- [37:50]
A
Yeah.
- [37:51]
B
You didn't go into the legal profession, but it didn't seem like that was a waste of your time.
- [37:55]
A
No, no, I don't think it was. Yeah. I'm just saying that like, I don't think the question is to me at least whether or not people should go to college. I think the question is what kind of education after high school is most useful to you to get you where you want to go in a way that makes economic sense for you, right? Not to overburden you with debt. Right. And also to try to match what you want you're interested in. Right? And like, why, especially with technology and AI, like, why couldn't we effectively have a full suite of services, some digital, some physical? And it could, you know, my guess would be both for almost everyone, where it's a full menu effect of like, okay, I want to study fucking classics and ancient Greek and that's it. Like, you know, and it could sort of help you understand, like, based on your family's income, whatever else. Like, can you. What will be the cost to you of that? And what is. What likely will your life be like when you're making not nearly enough money to live and pay the loans, right? Or might be like, oh, your family's fucking rich. Like, sure, go for it, whatever.
- [39:09]
C
Study Russian comedy at Brown a couple.
- [39:11]
A
Years to like, H vac to law. I mean, literally, you could come up with a thing where it's. You almost say, like, this is what I want to study, this is what I want to do. And I want to a be in school for a longer period of time, a shorter period of time, more digital, more physical. And it could just craft for you a version of education that maybe is a combination of all the digital content, is centrally sourced, and then maybe the physical stuff is what we currently call universities. Right?
- [39:43]
C
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I, I think that's compelling. I mean, I also think AI is going to change all of that. I hate to be that guy that says that. And every time, every question is going to be AI changes all this. But, like, I genuinely believe that's the case because what AI does fundamentally is collapses the knowledge gap, right? And so, like, when I was younger, I ran, I ran consulting and advisory services for startups while I was building my own company. And that was because I knew how to do things that people didn't know how to do because I built products before. But the truth is, you pop a question, you would have asked me to ChatGPT, you'll get 80% of the way there. They won't help you execute, right? It'll give you knowledge, but it collapses it. And so Marc Andreessen has a lot of thoughts on this that I think are quite interesting. Famous venture capitalists. And one of the things he talks about is like, the future is going to belong to the generalists. It's not going to belong to the people that have kind of specific skill sets. I may be bastardizing some of what he's saying.
- [40:29]
A
No, no, no, that makes sense.
- [40:30]
C
I think that's true. Right. Even now. So I just sold my company. One of the parts of my calculus was like, in the future I'm like, I think there's going to be massive valuation, multiple compression in SaaS businesses because I don't think everybody's going to be vibe coding CRM software for government or something like that. But I think eventually that's going to happen. And if VCs are inherently forward looking and private equity and everybody else, I think there's going to be compression of valuations because I think that knowledge gap is so amazingly condensed. So from my perspective, college is super useful because in the AI world, the base level knowledge you have and maybe a liberal arts education that gives you enough operating context to ask lots of questions in different areas. So you're like a mile wide and an inch deep may be the most valuable way to be in an AI world as opposed to being like 10 miles deep in an inch wide.
- [41:15]
A
Why does that compress valuations for SaaS companies?
- [41:18]
C
Well, you know, if a company can vibe code their way into a large portion of software and leverage open source and everything else, maybe they don't have to hire a company to do it.
- [41:25]
A
Yeah.
- [41:26]
C
And so I don't know that I believe in SaaS or vertical. I think some highly defensible vertical SaaS makes sense. I would maybe start that company today. But if it's on average 10 years to get to a liquidity event for a business, can you guarantee that if I start a company today, that's a good investment?
- [41:40]
A
No, but, but true, but arguably you could take that same point and basically argue against anyone doing anything for the next 10 years. Right.
- [41:49]
B
Except podcasts.
- [41:50]
A
Right. Other than AI companies. Right. Like, and by the way, arguably, if you were starting a startup today and it's not an AI startup, A, is that the right choice? And B, if you're doing that, I think you have to reorient your model away from venture and just towards building a fucking business the way 99.9% of the world always has. Right. And because there's just, it is hard to argue investing in things that have no AI component at all anymore because there's just no guarantee that they will even exist by the time that a liquidity event could occur.
- [42:29]
C
Yeah, And I mean, yeah, I mean that's the problem with like the venture model. Right, I know we're going to talk about that more later, but you Know, Venture loves software for the folks who don't work in the tech industry, because software has basically zero variable cost with scaling. And so for every user, Facebook adds their platform. Facebook doesn't really incur any additional costs, but they can monetize that user through ads and make a lot of money off that and investment. Right. It's a fraction of a cent to support that user, but I can make $10 a month on that user. And so that's why VC loves software so much, among other things. Right. Like the scalability unit economics. I don't know that that's valid anymore. So I think you're right. Like, maybe we should all make shoes. You know, PT knitwear. Let's make some clothes. Exactly.
- [43:07]
B
Let's do it.
- [43:08]
A
Yeah. All right.
- [43:10]
B
Unfortunately, the prices of those things are all going way down. Right. So, I mean, then you're competing against, you know, everybody in Korea and Vietnam and China and India, like.
- [43:20]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [43:21]
C
Yeah. Prices are going down. Durable goods.
- [43:24]
A
All right, Alex, pick on page one. Pick one of the next three. I'll show this to you.
- [43:28]
B
I think we should start with five just for. Let's start with five for a change of pace. Just for a change of pace. Why do we love dogs and babies so much? Do they reflect an innocence that we have lost and wish we still had? Would we actually be better off if we never lost it?
- [43:42]
A
Right. So I wrote the question, so obviously I think I kind of answered it in my. In the question, which is I do think, because at least I thought about this and like, I love babies. I love dogs, and.
- [43:54]
B
Are you a big baby guy?
- [43:55]
A
I like babies. Yeah. I don't interact with them that much lately.
- [43:58]
B
I was going to say, like, dogs. I see. I've.
- [44:00]
A
Well, because that's. But, you know, like. Oh, yeah. Like, I. I can't wait to be a grandparent one day.
- [44:05]
B
Yeah, no, me too. I'm into being a grandparent, too. But, like, I. I can wait. Like, I'm not.
- [44:10]
A
Yeah, no, I prefer not to be. For a good. Abby's 19.
- [44:13]
B
Yeah.
- [44:14]
A
A good 15 more years or so. 67. That sounds like a good time for it. But if your heart sort of almost immediately softens when you encounter a baby or a dog. Right. Then the question is why? And I think it is that there's no real. I mean, unless the dog seems scary in some way, there's no real anxiety. Because if the world is, as Alex said earlier, something of a zero sum game, I think we sort of all landed on generally better not to be. But there's something of it. Right. Then you're in sort of adversarial positions and situations with a lot of people. A lot of the time it may not be openly adversarial, but there's some level of tension or conflict or just like even just the jostling for the spot on the subway. I don't. That doesn't have to be anything like, you know. And you don't have that with dogs and babies. And I think it is so rare to not have it that when you do you really fucking relax and makes you happy. And the reason you don't have it is because they're so fucking innocent. Right. Dogs because of their cognitive ability and their nature. And again, there are bad natured dogs. But most dogs are seem pretty good and babies are generally pretty good. Right. And so at least to the first part, I think that's why we love them so much. What do you think?
- [45:46]
C
I find that so fascinating. First off, I mean they're cute as. I mean that's, you know, a big part of it. Yeah.
- [45:50]
B
Wait for a second though. Alex, are you a dog and baby person?
- [45:53]
C
Where do you. Oh yeah, I love babies, love dogs.
- [45:55]
B
And I mean, I know to be like, no, I'm not a dog.
- [45:58]
A
To really be the problem in the group.
- [46:00]
B
Yeah. I mean the weird thing is that I'm not that much of a dog person. I love that other people like their dogs, but I don't. Neat desire to have one or you know. Yeah, I do like babies though.
- [46:10]
C
Yeah. But anyway, also I'll take a weird way to answer this.
- [46:13]
A
Hugo does carry a ferret in his pocket at all times.
- [46:16]
C
Is that what that sound is?
- [46:17]
A
Yeah.
- [46:18]
C
Smells weird.
- [46:19]
A
Yeah. Just tell Frank.
- [46:20]
B
Ferrets are great.
- [46:21]
C
Yeah, I love ferrets. No, so I had a near death experience years ago. I totaled my motorcycle. I won't get into the story because it's a long, long story and we don't have 15 hours. But I learned a lot from that experience. And one of the things I learned was that I don't think we are powerless to fight back against death. And I think death contextualizes our entire existence. There's an incredible book I recommended to you a while ago called the Denial of Death by Ernest Beckert.
- [46:45]
A
Yeah, I read some of it.
- [46:46]
C
Oh yeah? Yeah. One of the most impactful books I've ever read. You probably hated it, but I just.
- [46:50]
A
Had to finish it.
- [46:51]
C
I love that book. But basically kind of the idea in that book is that everything in life, in many ways he kind of Runs through this theory called terror management theory. By the way, I met Jordan Peterson. I think he's not doing too well health wise now. But I met him months ago and we debated this for like multiple hours. I'm, I'm a believer in this. So terror management theory is that every decision that we make in life is either directly or indirectly related to our fear of death. Not in an obvious way. Right. Like maybe my fear of public speaking. I'm afraid of being judged by people. Because I'm judged by people. That may mean that I get ostracized from the group. I get kicked out of the cave, back to the caveman days. I don't have access to resources. Maybe I'm more likely to die. And so we develop hobbies, affectations, character armor, he says, in order to kind of distract us from the sense of our own finitude. Another way to say that is like the weight of the human condition, put it that way. I know it sounds kind of depressing, but I actually don't think it is. I think death is a beautiful contextualization for life. I think it makes it useful. So back to my point.
- [47:47]
A
Useful because it gives it. The finite pair is what gives it meaning.
- [47:50]
C
Yeah, it gives it scarcity creates value. That is the definitional driver for value. It's the fact that life is scarce means it is. So like sitting here, you know, playing with the ferret like that, you know, we can't do this forever. It's an amazing experience. Like that's what makes it so valuable that it's infinitesimally short.
- [48:06]
B
No. In fact, I think when you lose sight of that is when you get bored or you get. You stop using your time complacent. Yeah, yeah.
- [48:14]
C
Because you're devaluing life. Right. And that's like a bad thing. And so for me, I think there are ways that we can fight back against death in like our day to day existence. Like dance with like someone that you love and like have an amazing time. You're fighting back against death. Drink something, eat something you love, experience the human condition. You're fighting back against death. Nothing comes close to fighting back against death as effectively as a baby. You look at a baby and they are concentration of life, future and everything. They are the continuation of the species, your genetic line, however you want to say it. Yeah, they are life. They are a shot of life. And when I look at like a baby, the first phrase that comes into my mind is, what are we going to do with all this future? Like in a laughing, wonderful, warm Way I feel that when I look at a kid. And so I think it fights back against this, like, say that we could.
- [48:58]
B
So a dog is a separate thing than that, though, for sure.
- [49:01]
A
Not the future. It's just, you know what it is, at least, I guess I already described it, but for me, it's like the dog just like, wants to love and be loved and means well. And like, that's so nice. And like, I don't know, it just makes you feel good.
- [49:19]
B
Is ambition a sign of being discontented? Is the best thing we can be, is fully satisfied with our lives, whatever they are? Is that why Scandinavian countries fare so much better on happiness?
- [49:29]
A
Didn't we already talk about this?
- [49:31]
B
Well, we talked about the Scandinavia part and ambition. I guess that kind of is the thing. I don't think we hit on actually ambition because you were talking about capitalism in terms of wanting more. But ambition is different than just getting more stuff, right?
- [49:47]
A
Well, I mean, it does get back, right, if you think about it, so.
- [49:51]
B
Because ambition is also going back to a little bit about what you're talking about, sort of developing character and these sort of habits and customs, and your whole personality is built around making use of life and not, you know.
- [50:03]
A
Right. So ambition could be wanting to maximize life and the value of your life. Ambition could be.
- [50:11]
B
Well, I think it's a more interesting.
- [50:12]
C
Way to think about it.
- [50:12]
A
An attempt to quell insecurity. Right. Ambition could be just a genuine desire to do good. Ambition could be that you have this expression ability to express artistically or in writing or speaking or coding or whatever, and you just want to do that to its fullest. I mean, I think it can mean a lot of different things. But to the question of does it mean that you are discontent? I mean, yeah, a little bit. Right. I mean, I think that at least sometimes I wonder if, like, I wouldn't trade the life I've had with any other life, and I wouldn't probably trade my future for anyone else's future either. But, you know, in order to do this much and this range of stuff and take on this much risk and stress and criticism, everything else, all of the fucking time, and to. To be the one responsible in every way, including financially, for everything I do. You put that all together. It's a lot, man. You know, and like, I. I definitely could see a world where if you just were satisfied, like, kind of working at a, you know, regular job from 9 to 6 or whatever it is, and you play golf and you hang out with your family and you, you know, Drink beer or whatever. Like if that makes you, if that could truly make you happy, like, I don't know, maybe that's the. Maybe that should be preferable, you know? Right, well, preferable for who?
- [51:46]
B
It's not preferable for you. So what? I guess, maybe.
- [51:49]
A
But if I could, like, if you could snap the fingers and that becomes my personality.
- [51:55]
B
Well, we were talking earlier about California and you aspire to spend a part of your life in California when the kids grow up a little more.
- [52:05]
A
Just the winter. I can't even believe that in la. Yeah, I hate the fucking cold, man. Yeah, I'm totally, I'm done with the cold.
- [52:11]
B
It's so weird.
- [52:11]
C
You are New York personified.
- [52:13]
A
I don't have to be New York in February.
- [52:14]
C
Yeah, you might as well be a bagel.
- [52:15]
A
I can't imagine the rest of the year is fine, but January, February, March, there's no need.
- [52:21]
B
So when you're in LA for your three months, do you think that comes with a kind of more relaxed attitude about, about your work and, and, and maybe all the things you want to accomplish and you just sort of enjoy the day to day life and the.
- [52:34]
A
Well, I tell you, when we were talking earlier about sort of the nature of there being some level of hostility or conflict or just whatever positioning between people in day to day life and I mentioned the subway example, I was thinking like shit, by living here, you just constantly putting yourself in more of that because you're in such dense proximity to so many other people. And maybe on the flip side, but it's two sides of the same coin, right? So one of the reasons, the main reason probably that I love New York City is just I feed off the energy and there are other cities with great things, but nothing else really has this kind of energy. And I really value that and live off of it and feed off of it. But the same energy does also create a certain amount of anxiety and stress and just sort of like weight, you know, that you have to deal with.
- [53:32]
C
Oh, I feel it. I mean, this city, you know, it's a high pressure city, right? Like you're surrounded by ambition, you're surrounded by, you know, opportunity, all kinds of things. But you know, I think to the kind of core of the question, right, like, is ambition discontent? I thought about this like quite a bit over last weekend and I think this kind of goes back to like the human condition. Like, I think there's a whole middle of everyone and we're trying to fill it with things like family, religion, all this stuff so we can Kind of manage the human experience. But for me, the lowest form, maybe the first form of, like, human intelligence that pops up is an opinion, right? It's like, I like this. I don't like this binary, right? Like, good, bad, whatever. And so to me, I started reading a lot of philosophy a couple years back because I was trying to kind of understand things better. And one of the things that came up as I was reading Kierkegaard, I'm a huge Kierkegaard guy, is that who.
- [54:20]
A
Isn'T, obviously, who among us is not?
- [54:27]
C
Well, why don't you.
- [54:27]
B
Why don't you explain what a Kierkegaard dude is?
- [54:30]
C
Yeah, a Kierkegaard dude.
- [54:31]
B
Yeah.
- [54:31]
C
I mean, so Kierkegaard was amazing in the sense that. Well, I'll tell you what I learned from him, then we can talk about that. So what I learned from him, and I kind of saw this through other philosophers, too, is that the first thing that feels hypocritical to you, the hypocrisy you pick out, that's most painful, is the seed of your wisdom. I believe that. And so every company that I've started, like indigov, I was really pissed off at how US Congress was operating, the technology that act. It's like, this is a solvable problem. I want to fix it. And so the hypocrisy and, like, the anger and, like, the injustice of it was what made me driven to start a company and eat an enormous amount of crap and pain and suffering in order to get it to where it ultimately ended up. And so, you know, it's a. I think hypocrisy and opinion, like, noticing hypocrisy and opinion is an absolute requisite ingredient of, like, human accomplishment and, like, moving forward. So maybe discontent. I don't think it's a bad thing. It can run overboard. And, you know, there's that other quote. Like, you know, most people are other people. If you're living in a city like New York and you're inculcated with everybody's ambition all the time, and you start doing what they want because you think it's important and it's not really what you want, you can lose yourself in it. And so it can absolutely go too far. But I think there's something at the base of it that's absolutely necessary, for sure. But the Kiergaard one, the reason I loved him, is, like, he looked at a lot of things. Like, the first hypocrisy he saw was the clergy. He was very angry at the Catholic Church. He thought that they were saying one thing and living another way. Right. They were not exactly the right example, but they were selling indulgences, but also preaching austerity and all these things. And so his kind of thing was to, like, look defiantly at the suffering of life and laugh at it and use, like, humor as a tool to, like, deconstruct that discontent, but still do something about it. And so, like, I read that. I was like, oh man, this is my guy. I was like, I've never felt intellectually romantic for a person before.
- [56:11]
A
If they were a Kierkegaard AI avatar, would you hang out with them?
- [56:15]
C
I don't know. Like, so if they microwave Kierkegaard, like on anthropic Kierkegaard GPT.
- [56:21]
A
I don't know.
- [56:22]
C
You mean if they're like, microwaving the dead corpse of my favorite philosopher and turning it into a digital embodiment of who he should have been?
- [56:29]
B
They're working on it.
- [56:30]
C
I don't know. But you know what I thought of the other day? Similar vein. I am a gigantic Prince fan and I was always upset I never got to see him in concert. And now that he's dead, the sonar, whatever, the music development AI service, it makes music that sounds like the person made it. It's unbelievably incredible. And so I could theoretically listen to New Prince songs for the rest of my life. It'll never be the same or quite perfectly as good, but it'.
- [56:52]
B
But do you have any desire to do that?
- [56:56]
C
I have a viscerally negative reaction to it.
- [56:58]
B
Yeah.
- [56:58]
C
And so I started listening to Spotify and I'm realizing, like 60% of my Discover Weekly songs are all AI generated. And I didn't even know until I started researching these artists.
- [57:06]
A
The songs are AI generated.
- [57:07]
C
All my friends are talking about this. It's amazing. I hate to say this.
- [57:11]
B
How did you do like, like that?
- [57:13]
A
Just have. They just make up a name of an artist.
- [57:15]
C
Yeah. And they have an AI generated picture and they create AI generated Instagram profiles to these people so they look like they have real lives. It's horrifying.
- [57:22]
B
Well, name a band that like, that you thought was a real band. And then suddenly you're like. Because now I'm wondering.
- [57:27]
A
Metallica. Turns out they're AI. They were never really.
- [57:31]
B
They were the first big AI.
- [57:32]
A
Yeah, they were the first one.
- [57:34]
C
No, there was one I was listening to on the way over here. Ansel King. It's like a guy who's running a bunch of AIs to generate music. And when I look at like the pictures of this, it's like the most ridiculous, like Gen Z fantasy of a human that they like turn into an AI avatar and like they're aspiring personality characteristics. This person and an Instagram profile. We're through the looking glass. This is the uncanny Valley. This is the end of the world. And it's starting. And the music sounds amazing. And I hate to say that I legitimately, I hate to hear it. Yeah.
- [58:03]
A
You recommend. What's the guy's name again?
- [58:05]
B
I know you like this guy.
- [58:07]
C
I was vibing with this.
- [58:09]
B
Yeah. And you're content to like be like, hey, give me like, you know, Prince covering the Lemonheads live at, you know, La Jolla, California by the beach. Like, you. You'd be fine with that?
- [58:24]
C
Yeah. Would I be fine with it? No, I think it's like an abortion of reality. But like, here's another example. One of my favorite new artists, guy named Austin Mills. He's like R and B, new wave type stuff.
- [58:34]
B
Is he for real?
- [58:34]
A
Is he a real guy?
- [58:35]
C
He's a real guy. He died.
- [58:36]
B
Are you sure?
- [58:36]
C
Yeah, he was real and he died. I don't know how he died, but maybe. But like, I was so genuinely upset when I heard he died because I'm like, there's no more music that's going to come out of this. Tragic for and everybody. But his music was so incredible and there's nothing. And now someone could generate it again and it could live on as an abstraction of his style.
- [58:58]
A
You keep saying you don't like it, but you keep talking about it the way that you really do.
- [59:02]
B
But here's what's so weird. Like, I live right next to Webster hall, and just today I actually looked to see what was playing there, just up on the marquee. And it was something, you know, sold out. Something I'd never heard of. It's funny, it had a play on. God, I can't even remember what it was, but that it was. And I did actually think, is that. Is that real? Is that made up? But I was like, I mean, whatever they're performing at, but. But they could just be piping in the AI music and then you know what?
- [59:28]
A
People with lip syncing.
- [59:29]
B
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, that's.
- [59:31]
C
They do that. Probably nobody would do that. Just sitting there with their mouth on a clarinet.
- [59:36]
A
Who would do something like that?
- [59:37]
B
All right, I'm gonna switch topics to get away from the AI music thing or I'm going to become a set. What are the types of things you regret for example, there are choices I have made. This is Bradley writing these questions I have made that I would not make again. But my regrets tend to be around mistreatment of others, not professional or even personal failures.
- [59:57]
C
What number is that one?
- [59:58]
B
That's number 29.
- [60:00]
C
29?
- [60:00]
A
Yeah. I mean, you just read it, but like there are things I would take back, investments I've made, candidates I've run, whatever it is that failed. But if you're going to try to do a lot of ambitious things, you're going to try to do things that have never been done before, which is a lot of what we try to do, then you're going to fail a lot. So I generally accept that as a cost of doing business, even though I don't enjoy it in the moment when it happens. But yeah, I think ultimately in many ways for me, I was talking to friend the other day and she was saying that my use of happiness was probably wrong and it's really well being or even contentment. And I had a similar thought and I think in some ways, like if contentment is feeling good about myself on a sustained basis, then I don't feel bad about myself for trying an idea and failing. But I should be at the level where I treat everyone with respect and decency and ideally compassion at all times. And when I fall short of that and it's not, luckily, I don't think it's that often, but, you know, it happens, that tends to be my regret because I expect better of myself.
- [61:25]
C
But you're so question for you, I mean you're. I hope you are. I'm very happy with you. But are you happy with yourself? And if you are, regrets must be more expensive if you're happy with yourself, harder to come.
- [61:33]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, I am happy with myself overall for sure, knowing that I've made my share of mistakes. But yes, overall, I would say, though it's funny I was the Washington Post yesterday had like this, you know, I'm a sucker for every sort of online health, wellness type quiz, mental, physical, whatever. And I took one yesterday in the Washington Post and I think the 3 choice it was basically just which bucket were you did you see yourself or want to be was like a. A life of purpose and meaning. A life of engagement or a life of joy or fun. Life of fun. Right. And I was sort of super heavy indexed on the meaning part, obviously. Right. And I would say if I look at the totality of my life and even just we're actually putting out the first because I'm Sure. Everyone is just waiting with bated breath for this, the first Tusk Philanthropy's annual report. This week, I think, or next week. What's today? Friday. So next week I wrote up a index of the work that our foundation has done for days. It was over the last nine years. And it's in there. And it's fucking. It's a lot of stuff, man. You know, it's 29 hunger bells in 22 states with 4.75 million people who used to not get food now do. And $9 million of money, in that case spent unlocking $6.8 billion in new funding for hunger and billions and billions of new meals being served. Or if it's all the stuff on mobile voting, from testing the idea to building the technology to getting it going on Anchorage, to running legislation and all of that, to all the stuff in New York, whether it's getting rid of the broker's fees or the scaffolding, or providing legal protection for doctors and nurse practitioners who prescribe abortion meds to women in red states via telemedicine or E bikes or whatever else. And there's a bunch of other stuff, too, including the bookstore and the book prize and all that shit. Yeah. I truly do think that my life has had significant societal value. And that might sound arrogant to say, but I think that, and I think I did a lot when I was in government that had a lot of impact, but it has not been a life of ease at all. Right. And some of that is my personality and OCD and anxiety and all of that. And OCD is an anxiety disorder. And some of it is prioritizing meaning and purpose over ease and over fun, you know, And I don't regret it. But is it. Did I. Is the way I've lived my life? It might be the only way that I could do it, but it is the. Is it necessarily the best way if you could just pick. I'm not sure.
- [64:31]
C
I don't know. I mean, I think I always have trouble with that question. Like, is it the best way? Like, one of the things I love about you, aside from all the things you've done, is that you've bled for what you believe in, that I take.
- [64:39]
A
Credit for it endlessly.
- [64:41]
C
That's obviously awesome. I. One more moment, I was gonna start sweating, it was so delicious. But no, I, I. You generally bled for the things you believe in. You sacrifice personal wealth, you sacrifice time, anxiety, all these things. And, like, what you've bought with all that suffering is amazing, but you suffered, like, for it. And like, I listen, I meet so many venture capitalists or investors who are like, quote unquote philanthropists who are like, cutting a check with zero emotional engagement into whatever the hell it is they're giving money to. You are deeply involved in these things, and I think you can say that with alacrity because you've earned it through pain and suffering. And I think that's a beautiful thing.
- [65:16]
A
Right?
- [65:16]
C
Like, that's. You can, you know, say whatever you want. That right there is, like, Is untouchable in my opinion. But the, the concept of, like, regret, the idea of like, of having regrets, I fundamentally don't believe in that. I'm like a fatalist to a large degree. I think everything happens. But you don't ever.
- [65:32]
A
Like, you're not perfect, right?
- [65:35]
C
No.
- [65:35]
A
So then if you make a mistake, there's no form of mistake that you ever make that you, like, feel bad about?
- [65:44]
C
No, I think that's a failure of adequate rationalization of what you've done. And I don't mean rationalization, a way to excuse behavior. I think you can sit down and say, I did this wasn't a good thing. But I think everything happens for a reason. Bad things happen for a reason. Good things happen for a reason. Learning lessons happen.
- [66:00]
B
What about regrets for having. You know, there's, there's kind of like, hell, you try a business and it fails or whatever, that's, you know. But what about where you just didn't hold up your end? Right.
- [66:11]
C
Personally failed.
- [66:12]
B
Yeah, we just, like, you didn't. You didn't prepare. You got it wrong. You missed obvious signals. Like, I think there's, there's this kind of idea of failure that gets talked about as if, you know, everybody gave 120% and it just didn't work in the end. And you're like. But there's all kinds of other failure, which is like, yeah, you fucked up that thing that, like, you probably should have gotten.
- [66:28]
A
Right.
- [66:29]
B
And like, you know, you, you went into that meeting not prepared, and then the person who was, you know, on the other end of it was like, yeah, you know, we're going to have to cut this off because, like, you didn't do your, you know, hold up your end. Those kinds of, I mean, those, those. I assume those happen to everybody, right?
- [66:44]
A
They do. I mean, I think it's really not just me.
- [66:47]
B
Yeah.
- [66:48]
A
But I think that's a question of, like, are you giving your best efforts? Right. Because if you are.
- [66:53]
B
But we always sometimes don't. Right, Right.
- [66:55]
A
I'm saying we don't but we always. But when we. If you do, then you shouldn't generally have that type of regret because you worked as hard as you could to get it right.
- [67:05]
B
Right.
- [67:07]
A
That's generally how I operate. So for me, there aren't that many occasions of that. I mean, it happens sometimes, but.
- [67:16]
B
Well, that's the one I'm more curious about because I don't know, I definitely feel like if you feel like you gave it your all and like, you know, fate just want the other. Other way. Yeah. Why would you have regret about that? Like you did what you were supposed to do and it didn't work out. Where real regret would come in, where it's like, yeah, I did this and that was the wrong choice, you know, or, or I was lazy. Or I, you know, what, whatever, whatever actual sort of character defects might come into play. Those things seem to me where real regret comes from.
- [67:46]
C
Yeah, I mean there's, there's like acting, there's violating your own, like, ethical code. Like I acted in a way that I don't feel comfortable based on my thing, but for.
- [67:53]
B
I lied to somebody because I thought it was a short term solution, turned out to be a big deal or.
- [67:56]
C
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I mean we're all human, we all do that, it's unavoidable. But for me, it's hard to divorce that from my concept of like faith and foundational belief system. And so I pray. I know we talked about this kind of thing before. Like, ultimately the only thing that matters is whether or not I'm disappointing God or not. Whether I'm disappointing myself is like kind of important. Other people kind of matter.
- [68:17]
A
And this one, I have a question on there that we actually go to after. But, but do you have a concept of God where God has any focus or awareness of you specifically?
- [68:27]
C
Very much so, yeah. I mean, my concept of God is kind of like Max Planck is a father, like quantum physics.
- [68:33]
A
Right.
- [68:33]
C
Which is like God is the mind that is the matrix of all matter. Like everything is God. It is all part of the whole thing. Like, I do believe he genuinely loves us and cares about us. I don't believe we live in a cruel and indifferent world. I think that bad things happen, but I think there's a reason for those bad things happening. And yeah, I think he's directly involved with all of us. Do I think he guides every single thing? Do I think we have free will? I think I believe both those things are true at the same time, even though they seem like logical opposites.
- [68:58]
A
I mean, it's funny, I have the not exact same but not dissimilar contradiction. Right. Which is. So where we're different is I believe in intelligent Design, right? So I believe deeply that God exists. And the questions why It's. Well, that's faith, right? I have faith. But I believe that God effectively does not sit there and kind of pull the levers all day, every day. And that forces like evolution drive things. And that's my worldview. I don't believe in an afterlife. I don't believe in reincarnation. But then as we discuss, I also pray every day. And I do feel a very strong personal relationship with God. And I do talk to God and I feel like God is listening and I feel like God is looking out for me. And, you know, overall, like, things have worked out pretty good. And like, I think you're one of his favorites, personally. Yeah, definitely, Definitely. But like, but it's funny, cause I have these two things where, like, they're just two totally contrary thoughts in my head at the same time, which is that I truly believe in intelligent Design and I truly believe it doesn't apply to me.
- [70:14]
C
Yeah, but if you. If you believe in God, the concept that, like, God created everything per se, like rationality, everything else, like the human conception of rationality doesn't apply to something that would be so far different from us that you can't even imagine it. So, like, judging God by like a narrow definition of human logic system doesn't make sense to me.
- [70:32]
B
Right.
- [70:32]
C
Or at least it seems like a weird, like kind of attribution error and all kinds of other logical fallacies. But. Yeah, I mean, what is it? The definition of true wisdom is holding two contradicting ideas in your brain at the same time and not having it tear you apart. Like, I can't remember who said that.
- [70:46]
A
But that's probably Mark Twain.
- [70:47]
C
Probably Mark Twain or maybe Winston Churchill either.
- [70:50]
B
It doesn't sound like Winston Churchill to me, but.
- [70:52]
A
But they said everything.
- [70:53]
C
Yeah, it could be George Orwell.
- [70:55]
B
80% of a lot of Orwell, though, are there.
- [70:57]
A
Yeah, well, he's very. Thomas Jefferson gets a bunch. Ben Franklin.
- [71:01]
C
Ben Franklin gets a bunch DK Chesterton. No one knows who he is, but he's written. He's got a.
- [71:04]
A
He's not even a real person.
- [71:05]
C
Yeah, it's AI Based.
- [71:07]
A
It's AI Definitely. He's Ansel King.
- [71:10]
B
Never lived.
- [71:11]
C
Yes.
- [71:12]
B
Yeah. Alex, did you want to pick the next one?
- [71:14]
C
Sure, sure. That's a good one. I liked your Neil degrass Tyson question of which number was that? Where it's like the earth is 16 trillion years old.
- [71:22]
B
The universe is about 14 billion years old. The earth is about 4.5 billion years old. Humans have existed 60,000 years in our current form. The average lifespan is 73 and a half years. In other words, our lives at best represent. Oh, now you have a fraction, a tiny fraction here. 0.00000052% of the totality of the universe. Does that make you feel depressed or does it make you feel less pressure?
- [71:50]
A
What do you think?
- [71:51]
C
I hate Neil DeGrasse Tyson so much. That's a mean thing to say. I'm sure he's a nice person, but he does a lot of these quotes, and I've seen tweets from him saying.
- [72:00]
A
No, no, he didn't write that.
- [72:01]
C
What's that? No, no, he didn't. But he likes, like, who I think of when I hear things like that.
- [72:06]
A
Because Neil DeGrasse Tyson. Credit for my.
- [72:08]
C
No, I would never.
- [72:09]
B
Neil DeGrasse Tyson have problems with, like, taking other people's work. Wasn't that one of his problems, too? So now you're taking Neil DeGrasse Tyson's work.
- [72:15]
C
Don't give me more reasons to beef with Neil degrasse Tyson.
- [72:17]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [72:18]
C
But no, I mean, he has things like he'll send out tweets like, you live in a cruel and indifferent universe, that kind of thing.
- [72:23]
B
And I just.
- [72:24]
A
To taunt people kind of.
- [72:25]
C
Maybe he's just being a. Yeah, maybe he's being a polemicist. I don't know.
- [72:28]
A
He's the troll of the universe.
- [72:30]
C
Yeah, but I, I. The reason I don't like that kind of stuff is, like, the idea of zooming out to make your human experience seem smaller as a way to contextualize or take pressure off yourself. Feels like the wrong direction to go. In fact, I think you should lean in and be like, no, Everything you do is sacred and amazing and alive with, like, the fire of the cosmos. You should take everything seriously because we have a short amount.
- [72:50]
A
But does it have a significance beyond you? And therefore, once you're dead, is there any significance to it at all?
- [72:55]
C
Oh, for sure. I definitely think things have significance beyond us. I think we are all connected in some way, shape or form. Things that happen to you affect me and likewise.
- [73:02]
B
And don't you.
- [73:03]
C
That's.
- [73:03]
B
That's that famous quote from Gladiator. We can quote that now. You know, what you do today on.
- [73:08]
C
The battlefield will echo in the.
- [73:10]
A
You know, I got. I know everyone loved that movie. It was, like, entertaining When I watched it. But I've never had a slightest inkling to watch it again. Nor did I see.
- [73:19]
B
I have the totally. Action. Like that's one of those movies. I'll just watch it. I. When whenever it's on, like I'll just pick up and watch 15 minutes.
- [73:25]
A
I feel unmanaged.
- [73:26]
B
I find it way better than like. I mean, first of all, Russell Crowe is just a great movie star. So the scenes just all have this real gravity to them, even if it's cheesy like, like the other movie that's always on. Like the Bourne movies. You're like, you know what, I can't watch this anymore. It's like I don't want to see any more. That's just like gun chases and whatever.
- [73:43]
C
Like dumb Ridley Scott, Russell Crowe. I mean that movie is just incredible.
- [73:47]
B
I knew everybody.
- [73:48]
A
It was good. Yeah, it was good.
- [73:49]
B
Not good enough for you evidently.
- [73:51]
A
I mean, it was fine. I just don't understand why it was that big of a deal.
- [73:54]
B
What's a movie that you will watch if you. I mean, I know people don't really flip around channels anymore. It's such a weird old fashioned thing to even.
- [74:01]
A
Yeah, I never really come and encounter movies like that.
- [74:03]
C
What's a channel if.
- [74:04]
B
Let's. Let's hypothetically put you in your. In your. On your couch flipping through the cable channels. What's the movie where you're like, oh.
- [74:11]
C
Shit, I just gotta stop and watch this. 13th Warrior.
- [74:14]
B
Which one?
- [74:14]
C
13Th Warrior Lobby Love and watch it.
- [74:17]
A
If I. If Old School is on, I'll watch it. Yeah, that one.
- [74:21]
B
Okay.
- [74:22]
C
I like the first Alien movie a lot too. That's very.
- [74:25]
B
Well, the second one is also like believably great. But those are, those are a little tip. A little hard to get into the headspace of just if you come in the middle of it, I find, you know, what's your.
- [74:36]
A
What genre requires the least headspace to come in the middle of action comedy?
- [74:42]
B
Yeah, I mean, you know, like you can, you can watch pornography. I'm thinking of like hardcore pornography can always come right in the middle. It's totally great.
- [74:49]
A
You need to turn off your computer weirdly.
- [74:50]
B
I think it just depends, I think the general quality of the movie and somebody had to say, I think the star power matters the most. So like, like you can watch like almost any Harrison Ford movie. You can just pick it up wherever it is. I mean the later Raiders Lost are accepted because those are terrible.
- [75:05]
A
But it didn't really hold up that well.
- [75:07]
B
But you can watch like like the Fugitive. Like the Fugitive. Like, it's Harrison Ford. You can just pick him up wherever he is.
- [75:15]
A
Yeah, yeah, I'll say that.
- [75:17]
C
Yeah.
- [75:17]
B
I mean, we went from the billion year old.
- [75:20]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. What happened there?
- [75:22]
C
Yeah. No, I just. I don't think. I don't think about it. I also think, like, I love quantum physics. I don't know how much, and I'm not a quantum physicist. I don't understand half the shit I read when I get into it. But, like, you know, the observer effect, it kind of.
- [75:35]
A
You should ask Kierkegaard for help.
- [75:36]
C
I should ask you for that.
- [75:39]
B
Yeah. Kgpt.
- [75:41]
C
No, but, like, there's an idea, right, of the observer effect that, like, consciousness affects how the universe plays out to some degree. And I believe that, like, the light of consciousness affects things. And so where we choose to spend our time and attention and what we think about and what we do and how we experience it affects the world around us outside of our subjective human experience. Like, I believe that. I think we are connected in some way. And so, like, that's my problem with the zooming out stuff is it's like trying to make it feel insignificant when I feel like everything we do is so significant. And even if it isn't to everyone else, it is to us and it should be. Does that sound too romantic?
- [76:11]
A
No, I'm thinking about it. It's not wrong at all. And yet I remember when I. That question came from a substack that I wrote. And the point of that substack, it was like, those numbers, but like, 20 more examples of the same kind of stuff.
- [76:27]
B
Yeah, I read it. Yeah.
- [76:28]
A
Was meant to be more like, hey, it's okay. Take it easy.
- [76:33]
C
Right.
- [76:35]
A
And somehow you're right in that I totally agree that we need to maximize the value of our lives. Try to maximize, you know, every moment we possibly can and take it seriously and value it, too, and value it all that. And at the same time, though, I also think that there's something to the. Just, like, okay, like, for example, you know, I'm into, like, a lot of the wellness stuff. But there are times now where I will actively make a choice to do something that I know is not optimal for health. But I'm like, you know what? There's gotta be a balance or a combination between maximizing longevity with, you know, feeling good right now. Right. And how do I balance the two? I mean, there really is, generally. I have a piece coming out on happiness at the end of December. And I talk about the fact that there is Often a real disparity between the thing that might make you sort of happiest in the moment and the thing that is probably best for you and your long term happiness and well being. And I think that really does exist to a certain extent. And I think as I get older and maybe a little mellower, I'm more interested in a balance. I don't know if you go, I mean, you're, you're same age as me or a little older. Like, what were you like, what are you like now?
- [78:15]
B
I think I'm pretty.
- [78:17]
C
I mean, whatever.
- [78:17]
B
When you're much younger, I mean you just go party like crazy and make all these like very short term decisions. And then I think as you get into your 30s and you have children, obviously that's when you're like sort of frame expands away from the moment. But I think I'm, I think I'm. Yeah, it's a constant, especially as you get to be. I mean I'm in my, I'm in my like last half of my 50s. So you start to, you start to imagine that like a lot of things have consequences like just not eating well even for a little bit. Like, seems like, well, maybe that might be significantly bad. Right. Which is not something I would have ever thought about even like 10 years ago. But I don't know. I do think it's really important to not walk around with a kind of calculus in your mind all the time about what the right thing to do is for your own well being. Constantly. You have to go through life, you know, a little more instinctively than that.
- [79:14]
A
So.
- [79:14]
B
But it's, I don't, I don't have a solution to it at all. I just, I do notice it becoming a bigger and bigger sort of, sort of drain on my headspace.
- [79:23]
C
One question for you guys because you're old as hell, so one of the questions I have is that I think a lot of. Back to your question of like ambition and discontent and things like that, right? Like my entire life I would say like, and this is like a, not a positive framing of it, but most of the companies I've started, the things I've done are because I was pissed off about something, I was angry about something and I have like a lot of fire and a lot of rebelliousness because a lot of things just piss me off. I'm like, oh, that's Sol. Let's solve that. Like it shouldn't be this way. I get angry about it and I wonder sometimes, like, I don't want to be like an 85 year old angry dude who's just angry about everything. And kind of one of my hopes is like, as I get older, I think that I would hope that my emotional register reaction to things calms a little bit. Maybe it'll continue. But I also wonder like, what are the things that like change that over time? Is it responsibility? Like, I think your ability to have fun and responsibility are negatively correlated. And so if you go to Disney World and you're trying to get your kids not to get kidnapped and like jump off a roller coaster and die, you can't sit there and just like have a guilty.
- [80:18]
A
Neither of those things happen.
- [80:20]
C
I've never been to Disney World kids.
- [80:21]
B
But like, but the kids weren't kidnapped when you went to Disney World.
- [80:24]
A
They did jump off the roller coaster.
- [80:26]
C
Okay, well, there we go. I'm half right. My point is like, as you have more responsibility in life, your capacity for like fun, at least for me in my experience it's like gone down dramatically. It's like indigo scale. I could have less fun because I had too much responsibility. Never take a weekend or a night or anything like that.
- [80:41]
A
Yeah, sure.
- [80:41]
C
Like, so that for me responsibility like deadens a lot of those like baser like instincts. Like what do you think? What do you think kind of helped you calm as you were kind of like getting older because you guys seem more centered than me.
- [80:52]
A
Yeah, I think that that's right. I think it's. Some of it is just literally with age comes wisdom. I mean, most studies show that people who are older are happier actually. And the decade of your life that's known to be the most unhappy is your 40s.
- [81:12]
C
Yeah. Did you read Arthur Brooks book? You wrote a whole book about this.
- [81:15]
A
Yeah, yeah, I read that and I think that. So some of it is that some of it is failure in life and like for me, divorce. Right. And therefore putting that in perspective with everything else, some of it is you just kind of learn how to do stuff. Right. Like, I know how to, like I've now been a parent for 19 years and I know how to do it. It doesn't mean I don't get things wrong, but I'm not worried about my ability to do it. And now I've seen enough stuff.
- [81:51]
B
But also the kids can take care of a lot more.
- [81:54]
A
Well, that too. But also I'm also seen enough stuff now that I. There's not that many situations where I'm like, how do you react here? Right, right.
- [82:00]
C
They get harder to kidnap as they get older.
- [82:02]
A
It's true. They're more elusive, you know, and so some of it's that some of it is, like, I've, you know, I hope to live, like, a lot, lot longer, but, like, I can live with what I've accomplished already as a meaningful life. Right. So, like, that feels pretty good.
- [82:22]
C
So accomplishment, too.
- [82:23]
A
I mean, you've had a lot accomplishment and some level of security, right? You know, so I think it's a combination of all of those things. And also for me, by the way, like, I got pretty radical treatment for my ocd, and it has helped a lot. That's fairly recent, but, like. Are you referring to the TMS electromagnetic? Yeah. So, like, you know, it's funny, we.
- [82:48]
B
Haven'T talked about that in a long time.
- [82:49]
A
I'm going for a refresh on Tuesday.
- [82:51]
B
So you feel substantial, lasting effect?
- [82:54]
A
I think so, yeah. I mean, look, look, it's not quantifiable, like a blood test or an X ray or something like that. So it's hard to really, even for me to totally know. But I would say that if prior to that, I lugged the 2 turn ton weight around with me at all times. Now it's like a ton and a half. So I wouldn't say that I'm the most carefree guy you're gonna meet, but I would also say that I do notice that I feel better, and that's something for sure.
- [83:24]
B
And so the refresh is the same thing again, or what's different about it?
- [83:28]
A
You know, it's kind of more intellectual curiosity on my part of, like, is more. More. And I think they don't really know entirely because, one, it's subjective to each person, and two, it just hasn't been around for that long. Right. So, like, you know, if they know that at some point it does wear off a little bit, and you have to get, you know, like, refreshers then. But what if you kind of add to it early on? I don't know. So, you know, I think their point was like, look, if you don't mind the actual discomfort of the treatment, which is significant, and the cost, there's no downside beyond that. So I was like, all right, so, you know, I'm going in.
- [84:08]
B
Wow. Do you want to pick the next?
- [84:11]
C
Yeah. How about this hedonic treadmill? 1. So, yeah, even if we acknowledge the hedonic treadmill, there are certain material items just make you really happy. If so, what are they?
- [84:20]
A
Yeah, it's a good question. So, Hugo, I feel like you must have things that are beloved physically, like some records or something.
- [84:31]
C
Shots Fired?
- [84:32]
A
No, no, not necessarily. Just like you have passions, books and music and whatever that may be. Physical manifestations of those are pride possessions for you.
- [84:43]
B
I guess. I mean, I guess I feel embarrassed about, like, wanting to even talk about that. I mean, you know, like, I want less stuff in my life, you know, like, and I never liked collecting. Like, I never wanted to have like, some giant record collection.
- [85:00]
A
Yeah.
- [85:01]
B
And I've recently thought about getting rid of all my books because I, like, first of all, just, you can find anything instantly anyway, and there's something about. I'm beginning to feel a little oppressed by them, you know, so they, like.
- [85:13]
A
Yell at you at night and stuff.
- [85:15]
B
Well, you know, I. I'm doing this project on a. On a. This financier guy named Richard Rainwater, who was like a famous guy in the sort of 70s and 80s, and one of the things he did was that he had literally, like, his office had nothing in it. Like, he basically had a pen and he had a legal pad, and he would actually, like. And he would do all the stuff on the legal pad all day, and then he would literally tear off the top page and. And throw it out and start the next day with a legal pad and the pen. And it was just like this sort of almost like immaculate approach to, like. And he did these.
- [85:47]
A
Didn't he have a trash can to throw the piece of paper in?
- [85:50]
B
Yeah, I assume, I assume it's materialism.
- [85:53]
C
Don't be ridiculous.
- [85:54]
B
But there were this very kind of ascetic. And I don't know if, you know, I don't know what his house was like or, you know, I mean, he was a very well off guy. I'm sure he had really nice cars. He did like to drive fast. So anyway. But I. I aspire to that kind of thing. Like, you know what I like about one of the things about you, Bradley? That I, That I want to be like, you never carry anything. Like, like, I don't think I've ever seen you with a bag.
- [86:19]
A
I try really hard not to. I hate carrying bags.
- [86:22]
B
Yeah. Yeah, so. So like, like now it's part of, like, the way our division of labor here. Like, I have to bring some shit to the, to the podcast. You do, but you always come in.
- [86:32]
C
You never have anything.
- [86:33]
A
And I was like, yeah, I don't.
- [86:34]
B
Want to carry stuff.
- [86:35]
A
No, it sucks. Carrying.
- [86:36]
B
Yeah, like, like, and you see people walk around with these gigantic backpacks and you're like, what in the world is in there? Like, why would you carry that around?
- [86:43]
A
Everybody's usually Dead bodies.
- [86:45]
B
They cut them up.
- [86:46]
A
Like an arm and a. Yeah, like a torso.
- [86:49]
B
The torso is pretty big.
- [86:51]
A
Oh, that's like a bigger. That's one of the bigger backpacks. Yeah. On the subway, it's annoying when someone has a giant backpack and you're standing next to them, so they keep hitting you with the vest. Backpack.
- [86:59]
B
Okay. So what stuff makes you happy?
- [87:01]
A
Well, you mean from material? Like the question. Well, I was thinking about it, so, like. Yeah. I mean, I'm not that into stuff general. Which sounds so stupid because.
- [87:09]
C
Right.
- [87:10]
A
You know, I have so much stuff, but still.
- [87:12]
B
Bradley, you don't actually have that much stuff.
- [87:14]
A
I mean, I have a carpet filled with things.
- [87:17]
C
Right, right.
- [87:17]
B
But. But I've been to your apartment, and one thing I don't think is, like, God, Bradley's got to stop buying so much stuff like that.
- [87:23]
C
Does not.
- [87:24]
B
No.
- [87:25]
A
Yeah. No, no, no. I guess not. I might have a little too much clothing, actually, more. Because I tend to buy it in bulk. Cause I'm like. I don't like shopping.
- [87:32]
C
Right.
- [87:33]
B
So you just order, like, 20 things and then you try it on and you wear five of them, and the rest of them just sit around for a while.
- [87:37]
A
Yeah. And then we get moi or something. Right. So, you know what? Nice hotels. I have a total weakness for fancy hotels. I will spend pretty much anything on a really nice hotel that's experiential. It's experiential, but at the end of the day, it's still luxury.
- [87:56]
B
So if you end up in a really shitty. I stayed.
- [87:58]
A
I really don't like it.
- [87:59]
B
Yeah, I stayed in a really bad hotel recently that was, like, shockingly bad. And I was actually glad I was by myself, because if I.
- [88:05]
A
Was it clean or not clean.
- [88:06]
B
Nope, not clean.
- [88:07]
A
Not clean is unacceptable. I can handle a not nice, but clean if I need to, but I'm willing to spend a lot on it.
- [88:16]
C
The hotel I'm staying in now, I mean, the room is so. It's expensive at a hotel.
- [88:20]
A
We won't release this till you're gone. So what hotel is it?
- [88:22]
C
The room is so small. You got to take your clothes off just to get in the room. Like, that's how insane it is. And I was like, which one is it? The civilian hotel.
- [88:29]
A
Where's that?
- [88:30]
C
What's up? Hell's Kitchen? Like, midtown area somewhere.
- [88:33]
A
I don't know.
- [88:33]
B
It doesn't sound good.
- [88:34]
A
Is that, like, the pod hotel? The ones with a little pod?
- [88:37]
C
Might as well be.
- [88:38]
A
Yeah.
- [88:38]
C
What's the one on. What's the one on?
- [88:40]
A
H Street.
- [88:40]
B
People talk about the rooms bit there being so tiny, the go tell or whatever. No, no, no, it's a, it's a.
- [88:46]
A
Oh, I know you're talking about.
- [88:48]
B
It's right off between fifth and sixth.
- [88:49]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know it's got.
- [88:51]
B
A kind of big.
- [88:51]
A
I met someone for breakfast there.
- [88:52]
B
It's got an intense lobby scene going.
- [88:54]
A
Forget the name of it.
- [88:55]
B
Yeah.
- [88:56]
A
Anyway, so hotels, but hotels, yeah, travel. I, I really do like to travel nicely.
- [89:04]
B
Do you do those services that like you can just get ushered right straight to the plane and not go through? I, I, like, I have to say the only. I, I don't, I don't mind. I can even sit in a coach seat and I mean, I would obviously prefer to be in business at first and I, and I do fly that way when I can. But like, I don't mind. Like I can, I can sit still and be fine. But, but going through security in airports, I.
- [89:28]
A
That's funny. So you're.
- [89:29]
B
I hate that so much.
- [89:31]
A
I don't, I mean, I don't like it, but I find that most of the time from when I enter the security area till I'm through, it is never more than 10 or 15 minutes. Like it's, I mean, now I have.
- [89:46]
C
Gotten a lot better.
- [89:46]
A
I don't know. Yeah, I have pre check.
- [89:48]
B
I have clear bad experiences recently.
- [89:50]
A
But, you know, but like, I don't know. Yeah, I mean there can be bad experiences for sure, but for whatever reason it doesn't, not like. Yeah, I don't know. It doesn't do that much for me. Okay, that.
- [90:04]
B
Well, Alex, what about you? What are your, what are your sort of like material weaknesses, I guess a way of thinking.
- [90:09]
C
It's interesting. I'm not, I'm not really a big things guy either. When I moved to San Francisco, I went straight from the airport. When I bought my one way ticket, it's like 2008 or whatever, I moved out there, I went straight to IKEA, bought all the furniture I had for the next 15 years and I never got anything else. Then I went to Mansin City.
- [90:24]
B
Did it all fall apart on you?
- [90:25]
C
What's that?
- [90:26]
B
Did it all fall apart on you?
- [90:27]
C
No, you know, IKEA ate it. Particle board's pretty good stuff. You know. IKEA is decent quality as long as you don't destroy it. But then I went to Mancini's Sleep World, bought a mattress and then I went to Target and got a sleeping bag and an inflatable mattress until the mattress came and that lasted me for 15 years, I never really invested in furniture or anything. I just. Just never thought about it.
- [90:46]
A
But when I wonder why you're single.
- [90:49]
C
God bless the woman who dated me.
- [90:51]
B
And didn't judge me. But, like, that's a lot of IKEA in this department. Yeah.
- [90:55]
A
He's 38.
- [90:57]
C
A lot of particle board, but. But no, I mean, like, outside of that, I would say books for sure. For me, like, I think books are trophies. I think I like seeing them. I'm like. And I can recall when I read something, when I look at them.
- [91:09]
A
You buy, like, first edition.
- [91:11]
C
Oh, no, no, no, no. This is all Amazon.
- [91:13]
B
Yeah.
- [91:13]
C
Bottom basement stuff. I have some nice antique books I have for my mom and other people my grandmother inherited, but nothing I don't really do a ton. But yeah, books for sure. I would say car is the other one. Car is a big one. Primarily because, like, I like the engine. Right. Like, having a fast engine like that experientially, is a lot of fun. Yeah, I'm a big fan of that. But, you know, the, the car that I have now is the most money I ever spent on a car. And after I spent it, I had like, an existential crisis business because I was like, why the hell did I spend that amount of money on the car?
- [91:43]
A
You like the car?
- [91:44]
C
Was that.
- [91:45]
A
Do you like the car?
- [91:46]
C
I love the car, but the, the amount of money versus, like, the marginal utility I get from that car, it can't be worth the money.
- [91:52]
A
Oh, I mean, yeah. You're talking to someone who literally, I have a car.
- [91:56]
C
Yeah.
- [91:57]
A
And I drive way less than 10 times a year.
- [92:01]
B
I keep thinking that I should come over and borrow your car. I don't know why. I don't even use my car that much, but I know that you, you have a nice one. And I'm like, sometimes, like, take my car. I'll just take Bradley's.
- [92:10]
A
And what do I pay, like, 800 bucks a month for the garage?
- [92:11]
B
Is that what it cost?
- [92:12]
A
Something like that. But yeah, like, ridiculous. I don't even know.
- [92:15]
B
Someone's just explained to me that, like, basically you should just park your car on the street and take the tickets. It's cheaper than, like, you know, paying the garage.
- [92:22]
C
Oh, New York, for sure.
- [92:23]
B
Yeah.
- [92:23]
C
Just pay the tickets. But I asked this question, so I, I years ago, I was like, all right, should I buy art? Like, am I at that age? Should I, like, own art before? And like, someone told me who was a really smart person in the art world, she said, to only buy art that makes you Feel something when you look at it, not because someone else tells you it's good. Like you should feel something viscerally when you look at it.
- [92:40]
B
Yeah, yeah, so I definitely agree with that. Yeah.
- [92:42]
C
So I went to all these like art galleries, I was looking at art and nothing I saw like affected me.
- [92:47]
A
So check the art section in ikea.
- [92:49]
B
I do, yeah.
- [92:50]
C
There's some really nice landscapes there for sure. Yeah. Underrated, you know, Ikea, I'm telling you, man, there's some stuff there. But, but anyway, so I was like, all right, well, I was like, what if I were to like make art? Like, what would make me feel something when I look at it? And so one of the first art projects I did in San Francisco was, you know, your parents have like sayings, they say when you're a kid, you'll just always remember in your head, like, my mom and dad have them all.
- [93:12]
A
The time, like, go shit in the lake.
- [93:14]
C
Go shit in the lake?
- [93:14]
A
Yeah, that's a Kercock and Aufignan.
- [93:16]
B
Yeah, I think I'm trying to think. The only ones. Wait, your dad would say, go shit in the lake or your mom?
- [93:20]
A
No, but there's this Yiddish phrase, gay cock and off and yan and it's being scotch, which just seems so Yiddish, you know.
- [93:27]
B
And is it meant to be like, like get away from here? Yeah, but like what?
- [93:31]
A
It's not like, go yourself.
- [93:33]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [93:35]
C
Yoshi in the lake. But so I had my parents take graffiti marker and write down the sayings that I remember them saying from when I was a kid on paper. And then I framed them and created a collage on my wall. And so when I look at it, I see my mom saying, stop and smell the effing tulips. Or like when my dad punished us as kids, we had to do like 100 push ups. So I had him write a hundred push ups, like on a thing. And so they were artifacts.
- [93:55]
B
You did 100 push ups?
- [93:57]
C
Oh, we had. My brother and I were the only kids in elementary school with Jack Pecks. That was how we got punished as kids. Yeah.
- [94:03]
A
Wow. Yeah.
- [94:04]
C
Military.
- [94:05]
A
Could you do 100 push ups right now, Hugo?
- [94:06]
C
No.
- [94:07]
B
Could you?
- [94:08]
A
I think so, yeah.
- [94:09]
B
I mean, I. I know I definitely know how to do push ups and I do them.
- [94:13]
A
I could definitely bag out 50.
- [94:15]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [94:16]
B
Well, that's not that close to 100's a lot.
- [94:19]
C
You're not bear hugging anybody for a couple days after that.
- [94:21]
B
Yeah, I don't think.
- [94:22]
A
I don't think anything. I can do more than 50.
- [94:25]
B
Yeah. I think it's funny, I was reading somewhere that you're supposed to be able to do like a. A sign of like physical competence is like 35. So the other day I just did, I think 35. See, and I was like. I was surprised. I mean, I could easily do it. Well, I wouldn't say even easily, but.
- [94:38]
C
I could do it. But I was like, wow, I don't.
- [94:39]
B
Know how many more, you know, like, I could do like again if it were like, you got to get to 100, like, I'm sure or you'll die.
- [94:47]
A
Yeah.
- [94:48]
C
Gone against your head. But. But so anyway, so I had this art collage made and like every time I walked in my place, I would basically see my parents handwriting talking about things.
- [94:55]
B
Alex has just passed a picture of it too. Yeah, read a couple of those, Bradley.
- [94:59]
A
Sure. I'll give you a special deal.
- [95:01]
C
That's my dad.
- [95:04]
A
Things are tough in the big city.
- [95:06]
C
It's my mom. Every time we complained, things don't be.
- [95:08]
A
An your whole life.
- [95:10]
B
Where'd you grow up? Did you grow up in a big city?
- [95:11]
C
D.C. okay.
- [95:13]
A
I have needs.
- [95:14]
C
It's my mom.
- [95:15]
A
I never underestimate anyone.
- [95:17]
C
My mom.
- [95:18]
A
Stop. It's tulips.
- [95:20]
C
That's my mom. Anything with a curse word.
- [95:22]
A
Jets. Hey, dude. Yeah. It's a good group.
- [95:25]
C
Yeah. The point is, like, what would make you feel something when you look at it? And so that's like an object worth having, right?
- [95:30]
A
Yeah. Because every time you remember a specific anecdote or story or something exactly from that, right?
- [95:36]
C
Yeah.
- [95:36]
A
Yeah, that's pretty good. All right.
- [95:37]
B
All right, I got one for you. I got one for each of you. But I'm going to start with you, Bradley. Do people understand you? If not, why not?
- [95:49]
A
Yeah, I think so. Do people understand me?
- [95:56]
B
Well, I think some people might not, but I don't.
- [96:00]
A
I would say this. I think the people that I associate with and voluntarily do because I don't choose to hang out with anyone who probably doesn't. And I also understand that I'm kind of a weird guy. And to a certain extent I imagine that of the people who like me, there is a like, yeah, just let him be him kind of thing. Right. I assume that that's sort of gotta be part of the thought process. I think there are people. I mean, the general public doesn't know who I am, but I think that in the different industries in which I work, I am probably misunderstood sometimes in different ways. Right. I think there are people who see me as a business guy. And don't like that. And there are people who see me as a political guy or this or that. So, like, you know, and also, like, I don't tend to do things the normal way. They're done. And that makes some people really mad. Right. And there are people who are, you know, so.
- [97:07]
C
And you have strong opinions, too.
- [97:08]
A
I have strong opinions. I don't hold back. And I also have run hundreds and hundreds of campaigns in one way or another at this point, and, you know, won a lot of them, and that meant someone was lost. Right. So, like, you put all that together.
- [97:24]
B
So.
- [97:25]
A
Yeah, I mean, I don't know if it's misunderstood or. I think there are some people who don't like me now. I think that if they knew me more, they might change their opinion. But, like, I don't know if I'm misunderstood. What do you think I am?
- [97:39]
B
Well, I don't think.
- [97:40]
A
Well, you run into people, I assume, who have heard of me but don't know me, and then they give you their impression of me. Right. So how often when that.
- [97:47]
C
Well, I guess it's a couple different things.
- [97:48]
B
Right. So it's like not being under. Understood by just general members of the public. Doesn't really mean anything. Right. It just means like, whatever. Like, yeah, you're not, you're not like Tom Brady or something where, like, oh, yeah, that guy's a really good quarterback or whatever. Like, there's a. I'm an excellent quarterback. I think it's. Yeah, I think it's. I think it's. So I think the question is just a lot more interesting if you think more narrowly in, you know, the context of like, like people. People who do know you, people in your circle and stuff. And I will say, you know, you are a. I think you're a very consistent person in your. The way you treat people and stuff like that. And that would make people understand you. They're not like, oh, my God, Bradley just did this thing. I don't know where that came from. You know, like, I don't. You're not like that in my experience. Yeah, but I also think that you are because of a lot of the stuff we talk about, like, on the podcast. You know, you're, you're. You have. You spend a lot of time think. I mean, like these questions, for example, like, thinking about, you know, who you are and like, what. What are the things that are important to you and stuff like that. And therefore you, like, that takes, you know, that that creates a little bit of a sense of mystery or a Little bit of detachment from people. Right. Because, like, you're in your head a lot, you know, and therefore, I think people.
- [99:08]
A
Don't.
- [99:09]
B
People get uncomfortable with that.
- [99:10]
C
Not.
- [99:11]
B
Not personally with you, because you do that. But in general, people who are thinking a lot of times, like, it's why people who are a little more spectrumy sometimes really freak people out because they're just like, wow, I don't know what they're thinking about right now. And it can be spectrum. No, I don't think you are particularly spectrumy, but you definitely, when you are, you just think that you are a deep thinker. And I do think that creates a.
- [99:38]
C
Sense of.
- [99:41]
B
Not unknowability. But it's harder necessarily for people to feel like they know what you're thinking.
- [99:47]
A
But they could just listen to this podcast.
- [99:49]
B
Well, if they did. I know, but I wonder how many.
- [99:54]
C
People do you think.
- [99:56]
B
I was at the office the other day, I came into the test strategy office, and I had the quite uncomfortable feeling of not recognizing. This wasn't when I saw you, of not recognizing anybody who was there. And I was like, oh, my God, who do they think I am? And then I was like, I wonder how many of them listen to the podcast and know who I am.
- [100:16]
A
I think a decent number. Yeah, I hope.
- [100:18]
B
I don't know.
- [100:19]
A
There's no.
- [100:19]
B
I guess. But it was. It was really.
- [100:20]
A
It was really funny to quiz once a month, but otherwise. And if you fail, you get fired. But other than that, it's fine.
- [100:26]
B
They don't have to listen.
- [100:27]
A
Do what you want, man. It's a free country.
- [100:28]
B
Anyway, it was really funny because I, you know, I used to go in there a lot more and definitely knew and, like, Abe wasn't there. Like, there was ever. They were like, you know, I was like, looking around, I was like, chris isn't here. Megan's not here. Like, you know, Chelsea's not here. I was like, what am I gonna do? You know? People are gonna think I'm, like, stealing shit from the kitchen. I went in there, I was like, should I take any food or should I just, like.
- [100:45]
A
Were you the guy that took the fruit?
- [100:48]
B
Was fruit missing?
- [100:49]
A
Yeah.
- [100:50]
B
What fruit was missing?
- [100:51]
A
There was a mango. There was some grapes, and I believe there was a nectarine missing.
- [100:57]
C
Maybe even.
- [100:58]
B
This is a joke. This is a joke.
- [100:59]
C
An out of season nectarine.
- [101:02]
A
Look, I'm not saying that Hugo stole the nectarine, but I'm not saying he didn't.
- [101:07]
B
But a lot of people did know. I mean, we don't know.
- [101:09]
A
Look, it could Be that we'll go to our graves not knowing who stole the nectarine. But it was probably Hugo.
- [101:15]
B
It was fine. You know, one thing I would definitely not steal or take any risk in taking away as a nectarine. It's just not good enough.
- [101:22]
C
It's too high risk.
- [101:23]
A
I remember one time I was walking with my friend Elliot, and we walked past one of those, like, bodegas that had, like, the nice fruit display. And he said, I wish I had the superpower where, like, down the block, I could just reach out my hand and the fruit would come to me. And I was like, if you could have one superpower it could steal fruit from.
- [101:42]
C
Fluke away.
- [101:44]
A
Like, just go buy it, man. You know? Feels really, like, unambitious.
- [101:50]
B
Alex, I got a question for you. Right, this is, like, going to take us into a whole, you know, a whole different direction. What number I just lost the. Where have you not yet traveled that you really want to go to?
- [102:06]
C
Oh, I haven't done any fun travel in a long time because it's for listeners who don't know this. Entrepreneurship stops your ability to enjoy the simple pleasures of life, including experiencing new fun things. And so I have a whole list, like, pages and pages and pages.
- [102:22]
B
Let's just go at the top of the list.
- [102:24]
C
What's number?
- [102:24]
B
1, 2, 3, 4.
- [102:25]
C
All right, let's take a look here. Oh, you have a list? Oh, I actually list. No, I list everything out on life. It's pretty bad. Do you have a list, Bradley, of.
- [102:32]
B
What places you haven't been? Yeah, yeah.
- [102:34]
C
I mean, look at this. I mean, there are literally.
- [102:38]
B
I mean, read the top one, Bradley.
- [102:41]
A
His or mine?
- [102:42]
B
They're either one.
- [102:43]
C
They're different places.
- [102:44]
A
Yeah, he has. He's got a mic right there.
- [102:46]
C
They're broken up by areas here. So on Asia, the Poconos, Palawan Island.
- [102:51]
B
Okay.
- [102:51]
C
Which I think is in the Philippines.
- [102:53]
B
Okay.
- [102:53]
C
That's top of my list for Asia.
- [102:55]
A
Well, how could be the top of your list if you don't even know what country it's in?
- [102:58]
C
I'm pretty sure it's Philippines. Listen, right? Cheers.
- [103:02]
B
It's a good question. Yeah.
- [103:03]
A
Were you wondering that, too?
- [103:05]
B
Yeah.
- [103:05]
A
Like, this guy's all sketchy.
- [103:09]
C
On the Europe side. Greek islands. It's all Greek islands. I'm Greek.
- [103:12]
A
Haven't you been to the Greek islands?
- [103:13]
B
I have.
- [103:14]
C
I haven't been to enough of them.
- [103:15]
B
I have to say. I've been to a few Greek islands, and one.
- [103:18]
A
You seen them all.
- [103:19]
B
I'm not going to. I'm not going to go that far?
- [103:20]
A
You kind of already did. Yeah.
- [103:22]
B
And. And the other weird thing. Thing is, up you go there, and you feel like. You feel like you have been there already because you're like. It's. I mean, it's a really nice thing, but the.
- [103:31]
C
The variety there.
- [103:32]
A
So you're not going back?
- [103:33]
C
No, I'll go back. My.
- [103:34]
B
My mom grew up in Greece, so I. I have a. I have a.
- [103:37]
C
Sort of spiritual attachment of the tribe, part of Greece. I like that.
- [103:40]
B
She grew up mostly in Athens, but she's not Greek.
- [103:43]
C
She's American, but nice.
- [103:44]
A
Yeah. Do you like Athens?
- [103:47]
B
No, it's not that nice.
- [103:48]
A
You like Athens?
- [103:50]
C
The night? I never experienced the nightlife until the last time I went, and they actually started to like it for the first time, but otherwise, I thought it was very crowded, very polluted. When I was a kid, I went there a bunch, but as an adult, I started to like it actually quite a bit.
- [104:01]
A
Yeah. All right.
- [104:03]
C
Do you like Athens?
- [104:05]
A
Yeah, I mean, I've been. I'm glad I went. I don't need to go back.
- [104:09]
B
Yeah.
- [104:09]
A
If I had to go back, I wouldn't hesitate to. But, like, I don't need to. Yeah. What else you got?
- [104:14]
C
Madagascar is really hot on my list. I had cousins that lived there for a while. I've always wanted to go. Just also, there's so many species of plants that evolve independently there. It just looks like another planet. I've heard, like, the baobab trees and everything else. I wouldn't see that. And then Papua New guinea is very high up on the list.
- [104:30]
A
Why?
- [104:31]
C
It's like, it's uncharted. Like, truly, there's not a lot of places in the world you can go that, like, don't have maps and stuff. And, like, it's. I'm sure there are maps for most of it, but a lot of you get there. What's that?
- [104:41]
A
Can you fly there?
- [104:42]
C
I don't think you can fly directly. I think you'd probably fly.
- [104:45]
A
There's not, like, one every hour from Newark.
- [104:46]
C
Probably not. Yeah. I haven't checked the flights to Papua New guinea, but I think you need a lot of shots as a Westerner with our delicate constitutions to handle that one.
- [104:54]
A
Yeah.
- [104:55]
C
And there's a lot of stuff you got to learn and be ready for before you go on a trip like that. But the biggest one I want to do is I want to do a subsistence camping trip in Alaska or, like, I bring enough food for, like, three, four days, and I try and stay two weeks, and I fish and Hunt and.
- [105:07]
B
Oh, my God, this sounds like the last thing Bradley would ever do.
- [105:10]
A
Yeah, literally. Yeah, literally. I pay so much money and not have to go.
- [105:15]
B
You're going to do the opposite of the subsistence that give me more than I need.
- [105:19]
C
Terrible.
- [105:19]
B
I love camping.
- [105:20]
A
I'll be in a nice hotel.
- [105:22]
B
Yeah. Bradley, what you got? What's number one?
- [105:25]
A
Turkey. I've always really wanted to go to.
- [105:27]
B
Oh, my mom also grew up a bit in Turkey. She split her time between Athens and Istanbul.
- [105:31]
A
Why?
- [105:32]
B
Her dad had a job that he went back and forth.
- [105:34]
A
Okay, should we. Did it involve CIA?
- [105:38]
B
No, no, I don't think so.
- [105:41]
A
Okay.
- [105:43]
C
You said, no, no, I don't think so. And that sounded really. Well, we just.
- [105:46]
B
So this is.
- [105:47]
A
This is how he maintains.
- [105:48]
B
A slight error. There was this weird thing where my.
- [105:51]
A
I never killed anyone. Prop.
- [105:53]
B
My mom's sister was born. Was born in Austria.
- [105:58]
A
Yeah.
- [105:59]
B
And it had already been invaded by the Nazis. At that point, you're like, why was my grandfather and grandmother still there? Like after the Nazis invaded? Like, what were they doing there?
- [106:09]
A
You know, maybe wasn't so easy to get out.
- [106:11]
B
Maybe. But I don't think it was a complete shock that had happened. Like, I think a lot of people were expecting would happen. So, you know, if you're an American business person as he was, you'd think.
- [106:20]
C
You'D be leaving, but stuck around.
- [106:22]
A
Yeah. So maybe not.
- [106:23]
B
Yeah. So we. We wonder, did he have some kind of weird government thing that he was doing?
- [106:28]
A
But we'll never know.
- [106:29]
B
We don't know.
- [106:33]
A
Do you think. Would you be willing to admit to having stolen the nectarines if you could find out the truth about your grandfather?
- [106:40]
C
Now you're in the hot seat.
- [106:42]
B
First of all, you've changed your story because first it was just one nectarine, and now apparently there's more nectarines.
- [106:47]
A
It was one or two. It was unclear.
- [106:49]
B
I stole the nectarine. Whoever's it was. I'm sorry. It wasn't that good. I really feel terrible.
- [106:54]
A
I'll let Gabe know that you've admitted to it. He keeps texting me, asking if you've confessed yet. Okay. So India, I'd like to go to.
- [107:01]
B
You've never been to the entire country of India.
- [107:05]
A
I'd like to go to South Korea. I'd like to go to Vietnam. I'm sort of intrigued by Manila, even though it's probably insane. And the same thing with Lagos. Both of those cities, just both those cities just really enjoy reading books about. They intrigued me.
- [107:21]
B
I'm totally with you on both those.
- [107:23]
A
Even Though it might be a total disaster. Like, I've been to Nairobi and I. That wasn't that great, you know, but still. And then Australia I'd like to go to. Never been. I just. I would like to check out Sydney.
- [107:40]
B
I'm sure it's really nice, but I bet they have great freaking hotels in Sydney that you would really enjoy. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe you could probably get one that you could just look right out on the opera, you know?
- [107:49]
A
And there are four US States that I have not been to. I've been to 46 states. States. Or maybe 45.
- [107:54]
B
Okay.
- [107:54]
A
What I have not been to. Oh, it's five. I haven't been to Alaska or Hawaii.
- [107:59]
B
Okay.
- [108:00]
A
New Hampshire.
- [108:01]
B
You haven't been to New Hampshire?
- [108:02]
A
No.
- [108:03]
C
Especially for political guys.
- [108:04]
A
I know, it's just. Well, I've never. Yeah.
- [108:06]
B
Was Mike running when he was the New Hampshire.
- [108:08]
A
Like, he didn't run. No, I think he was already. He wasn't competing in that now.
- [108:13]
B
Okay.
- [108:13]
A
But I also wasn't really.
- [108:15]
B
I know, but still, you might.
- [108:16]
C
You go to both Dakotas before New Hampshire?
- [108:18]
A
Amazingly, yes.
- [108:19]
C
That's crazy.
- [108:21]
B
It's a good one.
- [108:21]
A
I have not been to Kansas or Mississippi.
- [108:24]
B
Wow, that's strange. Kansas is definitely. I mean, I've been to Kansas many times. I've been. I've been to Mississippi, too. I had a. I had a girlfriend in college who lived in Kansas City. Now she lived in Kansas City, Missouri, but we obviously went into Cross the Border. Yeah. In fact, she lives in Shawnee Mission, and that was in Kansas. So, Yeah, I was in Kansas.
- [108:39]
A
All right. That's where I'm at.
- [108:41]
B
All right, so which of those states. Which is the one, like, if you had to go to Hawaii or whatever, the hotels alone. Hotels alone.
- [108:51]
A
Yeah.
- [108:51]
B
I don't think you're gonna do too well.
- [108:53]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Although the reason I'm in Hawaii is, like, I don't really like the beach. So to fly 11 hours to go sit on the beach to me is like, why would I do that?
- [109:02]
C
I've never been to the Dakotas. Those are two I haven't been into. But I do hear it's the kind of place where you can watch your dog run away for two weeks because it's so flat.
- [109:09]
A
Yeah. Well, we can a half. But Mount Rushmore is cool.
- [109:14]
C
Is it?
- [109:15]
B
Yeah.
- [109:15]
C
I've never seen it.
- [109:15]
A
I mean, just.
- [109:16]
B
Is it really cool?
- [109:17]
A
But, like, what are the odds that just, like, wind and rain and erosion would produce the faces of four presidents? That's right.
- [109:25]
B
You're so right.
- [109:26]
A
Like, it's so like that just when.
- [109:28]
C
You put it back. Providence.
- [109:30]
B
Okay, Bradley, I'm going to give you a question and then we're going to have a little break and decide how much longer.
- [109:33]
A
I think that's a good idea.
- [109:36]
B
What about you is technically imperfect, an illness, a mental disorder, a personality trait, but you'd keep it anyway?
- [109:45]
A
I mean, you know, I feel like.
- [109:46]
B
You must have one in mind that you wrote this question.
- [109:49]
A
I don't think I wrote that one that you. Oh, no, I wrote that. Well, I mean, OCD is. Is a disorder. Right. And I have it.
- [109:58]
B
You keep it. You're not. You don't want to keep it?
- [109:59]
A
No. Yeah. I mean, is the question more like, what character trait do you have that maybe is. Well, all right, I'll give you one. Like, some part of me does crave conflict, right? And I don't really pursue it, generally speaking, in my daily interactions with my. With regular people. But my work is, again, in sort of a binary construct. And I also, you know, whether it's trying to take on the way we vote or whatever else, like, you know, sort of take on, out of our foundation, various foes of different kinds all the time. And I would probably be a calmer, happier person if I didn't have a little bit of a blood loss. And I think I have the bloodlust, honestly, as a mechanism from my childhood of after a childhood of feeling vulnerable and bullied all the time. I think sometimes by picking fights with powerful people and winning or just surviving, it sort of proves to me like, you're safe. Right. So I think I even understand why I do it. So part of me wishes I didn't. But at the same time, a lot of good shit that has happened for the world might not have happened without that. And also a lot of good things that I'm proud of and, you know, whatever. So, like, maybe that.
- [111:22]
C
That's a good one. I would say I'm lazy. That's the part that bothers.
- [111:29]
B
I know Mr. Startup Guy who hasn't been able to go anywhere and has like.
- [111:33]
A
That's absurd.
- [111:34]
C
It's not. It's.
- [111:35]
B
I agree.
- [111:35]
C
It's not self evident, but like, there's certain areas where I'm really aggressive, like professionally, but in my personal life, I'm not. My mom gives me about this all the time.
- [111:42]
A
Time.
- [111:42]
C
I'm not driven at all. Like, I'm not stomping through the bars trying to meet women and do all kinds of stuff. I'm literally just very focused on professional life in my personal Life, I'm very.
- [111:50]
B
See, that doesn't sound lazy, though. I mean, imbalance.
- [111:55]
C
Well, I think. I think I miss out on experiences in life because I'm not motivated to do that. Like, everything I express, all my violence and work, like, none of it comes in my personal life. And I. I think I'm missing out on life opportunities often because of that. I'm beginning to feel that now as I'm exiting, you know, Indigo. We just sold the company. And so I'm starting to reassess. Reassess my life. And I realized, like, that's an era I've wildly underinvested in a big way.
- [112:19]
A
The IKEA furniture, that's the one. For 15 years.
- [112:23]
B
Do you have a single piece of IKEA furniture in your apartment?
- [112:26]
A
Not that I'm aware of. I mean, if we did, sure, no problem. But, like, I don't.
- [112:31]
C
I think what we're saying, you need to get off your high horse and get some of this IKEA furniture.
- [112:35]
A
Yeah, all right. Yeah, I'll do it.
- [112:37]
B
And not only that you need to get something. You need to put it together yourself just to.
- [112:40]
C
There's no way.
- [112:41]
A
Actually, you know, it's funny. When Abby was really little, we, you know, I worked in government, really. And we were fine. We weren't wealthy by any means. We didn't have any, like, extra cash. And so, like, now something needs to get fixed or done, you just. Someone does it, right? But then it was like we did whatever it was. Herper was very handy, or as I'm sure she still is, very handy. But I somehow, like, I tried to put, like, a crib and a few other things. Or not. It wasn't a crib. A couple things together, and they were incredibly frustrating. But I will say I have rarely felt prouder of myself than when I successfully did do it.
- [113:17]
C
You know, they call that the IKEA effect. There's an actual word for this.
- [113:19]
A
Oh, really?
- [113:20]
C
It's like a piece of shit. But it's my piece of shit because I built it and I love it. That's the IKEA effect.
- [113:25]
B
See, I don't feel that way about ikea.
- [113:28]
A
Because you're Swedish.
- [113:29]
C
I don't know if it is.
- [113:31]
B
My family is actually from the area that IKEA is from, the small island. Like, that's where they're from. So I don't know what that means, but.
- [113:38]
A
You ever go there just for the meatballs?
- [113:41]
B
Actually, I really do enjoy the meatballs at ikea. And I will always get them when I go there. Yes. Do you think Swedish are underrated. No, I think they're properly rated. People think they're good.
- [113:50]
A
No, but they're not. Like, when you say meatball, everyone assumes, like, the big Italian meatball, right?
- [113:56]
B
Yeah.
- [113:56]
A
No one ever thinks of a Swedish meatball. Don't you think the Swedish need to do a better job branding their version of meatballs?
- [114:01]
B
I do think of a Swedish meatball. So maybe, like, right. Like, we used to go to that restaurant, Aquavit, and eat the meatballs all the time and. Oh, my God, nothing ever was better than that. No Swedish meatball I've ever had. I mean, Italian meatball held up to that movie Meatballs.
- [114:16]
A
It was about a summer camp meatball.
- [114:18]
B
Bill Murray. Bill Murray was meatballs?
- [114:20]
C
Yeah.
- [114:20]
B
I don't think I ever saw it.
- [114:23]
C
Yeah, of course, I didn't like those.
- [114:25]
B
Slapstick comedy movies when I was a kid. Yeah. I mean, I didn't see.
- [114:28]
A
Do you know what I didn't see?
- [114:29]
B
Caddyshack.
- [114:30]
A
Don't ever see Cat. I tried showing it to Lyle, like, in the last year or two, because he likes to play golf. We couldn't get through more than 10 minutes. It was so bad. It was so bad.
- [114:39]
B
Did he like the movie Tin Cup?
- [114:41]
A
I don't think he's seen it.
- [114:43]
B
The Kevin Costner movie?
- [114:44]
A
No, I don't think he's.
- [114:45]
B
I've never seen it either, but I know it's a golf movie.
- [114:47]
C
Wait, you think Caddyshack's bad?
- [114:49]
A
Horrible.
- [114:50]
C
It's the hottest take I've ever heard from.
- [114:51]
A
Horrible. I mean, it was so unwanted.
- [114:54]
B
Alex wants to fight you outside right now.
- [114:55]
A
I challenged.
- [114:56]
B
This is where the whole.
- [114:57]
C
I want to give you a hug.
- [114:58]
A
When was the last time you tried watching Caddyshack?
- [115:01]
C
Listen, it's not my favorite movie in the world, but it's, like, monumentally. I watched Animal House last night or two nights ago.
- [115:07]
A
Maybe that holds up.
- [115:08]
C
I thought that held up.
- [115:09]
A
Caddyshack does not.
- [115:10]
B
I haven't seen Animal House. I would think it wouldn't hold up, but I haven't. I haven't seen it, so I don't know.
- [115:15]
A
No, you'd be right.
- [115:16]
C
All right, I got a good one for you. You talk a lot about happiness, which I think is a really interesting topic. I'm also very focused on fear and fear management as kind of a gating factor or, like, pathway to finding happiness. And so I'm really interested to know from you, like, you've done a lot of crazy stuff in your life, a lot of big vision stuff. How do you Manage fear like what works for you and what do you think works for other people?
- [115:37]
A
I think, at leave for me, one is I have a high risk tolerance, which I know is not exactly the same thing as fear, but I suspect it is a fear mitigant in general for me. So I think I might feel a little less fear in that way. So that's number one. Number two, I have a pretty strong kind of like fuck it, gene vibe, code, whatever. So I also like. I kind of sometimes just like rolling the dice and seeing what happens anyway.
- [116:09]
B
Yeah.
- [116:10]
A
So I think that probably helps a little bit too. I have a lot of self confidence and I think sometimes maybe irrationally so, but at the same time I have maybe less fear than I should because I assume I will figure it out. Like here's my assumption. My assumption is I'm smart enough to do everything outside of like something very much in the sciences that I don't know. Right. Even that if I really had to, I suspect if I, I could eventually figure it out. Number one. Number two, I can work harder than you. Number three, I'm tougher than you.
- [116:49]
C
This is why you belong in New York.
- [116:50]
A
Probably that's New York, except in February. I'm not tough enough in New York in February. And I think I also, I'm not fatalist. But you know, it's funny, like, I don't know, I would rather do what I want to do and do the things that I think are meaningful and live the life I want to live and live with the consequences of that, whatever they may be, than play it safe and not live my life. And so I think as a result of that, that also sort of mitigates fear too because there's almost an acceptance of it. But you know, there's also different kinds of fear, right? So like when you. The way I interpret your question was like sort of the fear that presents itself in day to day life, right? But if you put me in that subsistence trip with you in Alaska, I might feel fear, right? Or you know, I'm sure if someone tried to mug me tonight, I'd feel fear or whatever it is. So although Hugh and I had a lot of good. We had a good fighting tactics conversation before we started recording how we would each handle various. Hugh, my, my answer was if attacked. If attacked, yeah. Try to run away if you cannot. You just got a headbutt as fast as you can.
- [118:12]
C
It's all about the headbutt.
- [118:12]
A
Yeah, yeah, you got a headbutt. Hugo had different techniques in there.
- [118:16]
B
Well, it's Related to the head, but which is you just have to step into the fight regardless, you know.
- [118:20]
A
Yeah.
- [118:21]
B
A headbutt I think is pretty hard to pull off.
- [118:22]
A
Well.
- [118:22]
B
And you can, you could in fact knock yourself out and then.
- [118:25]
A
Yes, I'd probably do that.
- [118:26]
B
The other person would.
- [118:27]
A
Yeah, I feel like that's what would happen.
- [118:30]
C
Well, one self defense tip actually quite, quite effective. I've seen it work before. Take all your clothes off and run at the person screaming. I actually saw someone do that in real life. There's nothing that beats that.
- [118:40]
B
It's hard to get your clothes off.
- [118:43]
A
Did the person just watch the whole thing happen? Because it was so bizarre.
- [118:45]
C
Pants come off first. And if the moment pants come off, like, it's a different game. You're like, you're in my world now.
- [118:52]
B
I do think they're the kind of people who might attack you. Their physical fear is probably low. But everyone is scared of crazy. No one wants to fight crazy.
- [119:00]
A
Right?
- [119:01]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [119:02]
C
And the idea of fighting someone totally.
- [119:04]
A
Nude as well, you can't look, look.
- [119:06]
C
Tough fighting a naked guy either. Like that's just right.
- [119:10]
B
The, the, the.
- [119:12]
A
Did you see that movie with Jean Claude Van Damme and a nudist colony? It really, it didn't work. Yeah, I think it was on Cinemax.
- [119:20]
C
You just beat a bunch of naked people.
- [119:22]
A
All right. How do you.
- [119:27]
B
You know, I think.
- [119:28]
C
Your comment around that your risk tolerance is different. Like you have a higher risk tolerance.
- [119:31]
A
Yeah.
- [119:32]
C
I think I've had some people, like kind of junior entrepreneurs who are asking me questions, either like a class style scenario or something ask me about risk tolerance. And I genuinely, maybe I have a higher risk tolerance than other people, but for me it's much more risky working at Enterprise Rent a Car than it is starting a company. Because I know I will lead a life that I don't want.
- [119:51]
A
Right.
- [119:51]
C
Nothing wrong with Enterprise Rent a Car.
- [119:53]
A
I get it. Look, when I finished law school I had all this debt and offers from all these big law firms that were paneling 150 grand a year. And that was back in like 1999. And I went to the Parks Department for 28 grand.
- [120:05]
C
Yeah.
- [120:05]
A
Now because ultimately it was less risk. Yeah, right.
- [120:09]
C
Yeah.
- [120:09]
A
I know it seemed like a lot more risk, but the risk of being fucking miserable was 100%.
- [120:14]
C
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So for me, like, I genuinely don't know if I believe entrepreneurs broadly have higher risk tolerance. I just think they invert what they value as risk. At least that, that's the way.
- [120:22]
A
That's a good way to put it.
- [120:24]
C
But I think there's like three or four major models for managing fear. And I've thought about this quite a bit. I think one is religion. I think people can drive a lot of comfort from religion. They can anchor their conception of reality with religion and an anthropomorphic belief system. That works really well for me. I think there's humanism, philosophy, stoicism. I actually think stoicism is bullshit for most people. I read a ton of stoicism growing up. I was like, I'm going to read the inner citadel. I'm going to become a mental giant. I think stoicism is the kind of thing that you realize is true after you've suffered all the trauma that gives you the ability to be stoic. I don't know that it helps you looking forward. At least it didn't for me. So I don't know if that works as much. I think nihilism is something that a lot of people have kind of given into lately a lot. And as a fear response, candidly, I think we've got a lot of cultural nihilism going on because there's so much fear and uncertainty all the time. You're like, yeah, nothing matters anymore. Like AI is going to eat everything, so nothing matters.
- [121:14]
A
Right.
- [121:14]
C
I find that really problematic. But I think that's a fear mechanism. It's like a coping mechanism. I think tribalism is like a way of dulling fear as well. Yeah, If I'm part of a group, I feel safer because I'm inside the boundaries of that group. I think that's an and like a less productive way of managing fear. And then I think there's a lot of like short term painkillers like drugs and alcohol. And you know, alcohol is a very effective, you know, antidepressant up to a point. Right. And then like the inversion ratio breaks and you know, you get really, really bad. But there's, you know, video games and everything. Gen Z and millennials are hooked on pornography. Like, you know, wasting time, doom scrolling on the Internet. Yeah, A lot of those ways, believe it or not, are ways to get around fear. And I even see people, I always wonder why every girl I've dated is obsessed with murder documentaries. I have a theory on this that like when women in particular who are responsible for like protecting kids and protecting themselves and everything else, if they can identify fear and be like, that's the psycho, I feel safer knowing like, that's the psycho. And so identifying like fear based items can sometimes make you feel less fear. But I Don't know. I think it's like a combination of like religion and like rationalization of reality and a little bit of humanism for me, and stoicism that came from trauma, not from like philosophically reasoning into it.
- [122:26]
A
But yeah, true or false, human beings will last more than a, or maybe multiple choices, 100 years, 1,000 years, 100,000 years or a million years. And is there any point within that period, whatever you pick, where we will evolve meaningfully in a way that fundamentally changes our behavior or our abilities, Whether behavior, like we would automatically just change, choose to do the right thing without thinking about it, or our ability is like we can sprout wings and can fly.
- [122:56]
C
So this is the Fermi paradox question. Is there a great filter that's going to filter out humanity? I have an optimistic take on it. This is what I want to believe. I don't know if this is reinforced with my day to day experience, but one of the things I've noticed, and you've probably seen this a ton in politics, is with society and culture and politics, we feel like we are a sailboat tacking up wind to extremes all the time. And one question, one apocalyptic notion, is that those swings are getting more violent over time. I don't know that I believe that. I think that the Internet, in particular, the ironic deconstruction of memes. I'm a huge fan of memes. I'm obsessed with memes. I have like 50,000 memes on my computer, I think. Memes.
- [123:36]
A
So you do collect something.
- [123:38]
C
Oh, I do, absolutely. That's absolutely true.
- [123:39]
B
I do.
- [123:40]
C
Digital artifacts of cultural production memes. But I think memes are epistemological antibodies.
- [123:46]
A
Yeah.
- [123:46]
C
And what I mean by that is I think like we are, we are digesting like, we're. They're cultural enzymes. We are digesting like difficult cultural events so we can make sense of them. And then we're presenting them in like funny ways. And I genuinely think memes are helping society cope in like a big way. And the Internet gave birth to memes. I think it's the best thing that came out of the Internet. So my hope is that because of memes, quite frankly, and other things like the, the, the magnitude and that like wave function of like the tacking up wind is getting less and less and less, so we'll be more wise. The other thing I would kind of throw out as a closing thought to that was I read this book years ago. I think it was called Coddling the American Mind. And it said that America as a country and A culture is very much like an immature teenager. We have so much power, we don't really know what to do with it. We have wild mood swings, we have crazy deep impulses. We're trying to manage. And over time, and if that is in fact the case, and you believe that over time that means our strongest years are ahead of us and we're going to figure this out, we're going to learn how to manage culture in a big way and we're going to become more stable, more equilibrium based and more able to handle all the vicissitudes of like a country's life. And so I think we are growing up, I'm optimistic and I think we've got, you know, an unlimited amount of time. But.
- [124:56]
A
And the, I want to believe that the existential risks of nuclear or bioweapons or climate or even AI, like none of those strike you as sort of species level extinction risks.
- [125:10]
C
No, because back to our whole Malthusian economics thing at the very beginning of the conversation, I think when things are bad, and I think this is true of AI everybody through fear response projects, linear progression of consequence, things are going to get bad and they're going to get bad like this. And in reality things end up being asymptotic, meaning they kind of slow down over time. And so just like we've, I think as a society perhaps or a species reached equilibrium with our environment, maybe our birth rate's slowing, maybe we're figuring out how to be more efficient with the resources that we have and protect them. That's humanity reaching homeostasis. And so just like with that, I think we do that with all things. I don't think we're careening towards this apocalyptic scenario. I think we'll figure out eventually how to do it when we absolutely have to. And we've exhausted every other option.
- [125:49]
A
Yeah.
- [125:51]
B
What about you, Bradley? Like, what's your like?
- [125:53]
A
You know, I am less sanguine about humanity lasting for a really long time only because like, in many ways, I would argue one of the greatest accomplishments of humanity is for the last 80 years having the ability to blow up the entire world and kill each other and not doing it right and that kind of restraint. But I just, you got 8.2 billion people on the globe, 8.2 billion different, you know, combinations of DNA in which means that so many, that every single thing not only exists, but exists at scale. And you know, relying on humanity to sort of maintain a standard of perfection at all times to me is just really specious. And you know, I believe we're in a constant race to try to save ourselves before we destroy ourselves. And I think, you know, oftentimes the very product of progress and innovation and growth is also the tool of destruction, right? So like, think about climate change, like when they invented the car and they started using oil or someone invented an aerosol product or whatever else. No one's goal was just like, hey, let's just for fun destroy the ozone layer and the atmosphere and the climate. They were creating consumer products that at the time were thought to be helpful and useful and additive to people's lives that had significant negative externalities that they didn't anticipate. Right. So progress then marked by challenge, now by marked by new technological efforts like carbon capture to try to solve the problem. And it kind of goes back and forth, right? It made sense for the US to develop the nuclear bomb because Germany was about to do it and you had to beat them to it. And I don't know if Truman was right or not to use it, but I think there was at least a valid argument for using it to end.
- [127:53]
C
The war.
- [127:55]
A
And yet in doing so created this risk that sort of looms over us today with nine countries having nuclear weapons today, a tenth potentially in Iran, depending on what it is. And at some point could a totally irrational actor or a non state actor use it? Yeah, absolutely. Right. So, you know, oftentimes AI, there are ways that AI could absolutely save humanity. That's how we figure out carbon capture, Right. That's how we figure out all kinds of life saving medicines and cures and everything else. You know, at the same time, AI could design a bioweapon that arguably could be made in a makeshift way that could wipe out humanity. Right. So like, only point being we're in this constant back and forth. And it's funny this week, oh, there was an article in the New York Post the other day about how college campuses in New York are creating clubs for furries. And I'm not totally sure the conversation started because I was asking someone exactly what furries are and whether it was a sex thing or just that people like to dress up as animals.
- [129:08]
C
And both are disturbing answers.
- [129:10]
A
Yeah. And no one seemed to quite know, but one person said no, I think people just really like to pretend to be animals. And that kind of led to the question of is it easier to be a person or an animal? And that gets to a question of sort of the paradox of anxiety, right. Which is to be a human being, because our cognitive skills are so much greater, creates all kinds of Much more, arguably complex emotions and opportunities and risks and rewards. So more stress. But more upside too, to be an animal. Obviously there's some level of anxiety because they have survival instincts. Right. So that they have it. But. And I know there are people who would say, you know, go whale is just as emotional or octopus, whatever, as we are. That could be true. Right. But I don't believe that. I don't know. But by and large, the. If there are trillions of humans, imagine.
- [130:09]
B
How frustrating it would be to be an octopus.
- [130:12]
A
Because you feel misunderstood.
- [130:14]
B
I think you definitely feel misunderstood, but you'd be like, oh, my God, how much better it would be if I didn't have to be an octopus.
- [130:20]
C
Yeah.
- [130:21]
A
If they wish they were a squid.
- [130:23]
B
They'Re not the same thing.
- [130:24]
A
Squids are like little octopus.
- [130:26]
C
The curse of self awareness while being an octopus concerns.
- [130:29]
B
Yeah, look at those people walking around.
- [130:30]
A
That's the worst of all worlds. The self aware octopus. But, you know, band name.
- [130:35]
C
I like that.
- [130:35]
A
But like, arguably, the vast, vast, vast majority of species don't process things cognitively or feel things emotionally at the level that we do. And that would seem to be worse, but maybe their existences are happier because they're just less encumbered by thought and rationality and all these other things. So I don't know. So, I mean, I think that I don't even know how we got on this topic, but. But I do think that college campuses should not allow furry clubs. Number one.
- [131:11]
B
Is that the takeaway we want here.
- [131:13]
A
For the last two and a half hours? If there's one thing, it's a SUNY Plattsburgh. I want you to disband that furry club immediately. I think that's where it might have been. I don't remember exactly what was the underlying question we were starting with here before I went off at some random tangent.
- [131:28]
B
Well, just how long the human race is going to.
- [131:30]
A
Oh, right, yeah, yeah.
- [131:32]
C
So like, you know, obviously that logically leads to furries. That's how we go.
- [131:35]
A
Of course, of course.
- [131:37]
B
Everybody followed you right there.
- [131:38]
A
Yeah, yeah. I mean, we just went from like the development of AI and hairspray and the nuclear bomb to furries. Yeah, makes sense. Right? And that's what this podcast is. So. All right, I hope you. I can't imagine that anybody heard this, literally. Anybody.
- [131:58]
B
Should we offer some sort of prize to somebody? Who should we send a furry?
- [132:01]
A
Like, like, we'll send you a, like a furry.
- [132:04]
B
A furry something.
- [132:05]
A
Yeah, yeah, sure. How. What do you have to do?
- [132:08]
B
Just, just, just send a How do.
- [132:10]
A
You know that they won't just lie and say that they listen to the end of it?
- [132:13]
C
I know. Well, we.
- [132:14]
B
We would.
- [132:14]
A
Well, they.
- [132:15]
B
They.
- [132:15]
A
How would they know about it?
- [132:16]
B
Well, yeah, we would have to say. So we're going to say that you should. You should email you at bradleyirewall Media and then, like, you know, like, yeah, if you. If you listen to the furry discussion, we want to hear from you and we're going to send you, like, some incredible prize.
- [132:29]
A
Answer the last question.
- [132:31]
C
Yeah.
- [132:31]
A
And then if you answer the last question, you get the last question being.
- [132:34]
B
The one about how long will mankind survive humankind?
- [132:37]
C
No, you do. You do realize this just became the number one furry podcast, right?
- [132:41]
A
No.
- [132:41]
C
Bradley Tusk, Furry. I don't even know.
- [132:43]
B
I bet there's a lot. Yeah, I don't know. I don't think we're gonna touch those.
- [132:46]
A
I don't think so either. And anyway, yeah, just do something like that and then. All right, if you are still listening, thank you very much for hanging in there. I hope you liked it. See you guys.
- [132:55]
C
Thanks.
- [133:01]
A
Firewall is recorded at my bookstore, PNT Netware, located at 180 Orchard street on the lower east side of Manhattan. We'd love to hear from you with questions, feedbacks, or idea for a guest. Just email me at Bradley Firewall Media or find me on LinkedIn. And to keep up with what's on my mind and my latest writing, please follow my new substack@bradleytus.substack.com thanks again for listening.