Can Israel Win Back American Jews?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Firewall with Bradley Tusk

Episode: Can Israel Win Back American Jews?
Date: April 28, 2026
Host: Bradley Tusk
Producer/Co-host: Hugo Lindgren

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on Bradley Tusk’s reflections on the growing divide between Israel and American Jews, especially non-Orthodox communities, and the existential risks for Israel if it loses American Jewish support. Tusk shares the thinking behind a recent column he wrote on the topic, examines the waning support among mainstream American Jews, explores why this has happened, and offers actionable strategies for rebuilding that relationship. The discussion encompasses the generational and political shifts in the U.S. and Israel, the role of American Jewish organizations, and thoughts on current U.S. political dynamics impacting Israel.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jazz Fest Stories & Operation Sandwich

Timestamps: 00:00–07:10

• Light-hearted opening: Bradley and Hugo start with a recap of Jazz Fest in New Orleans, discussing music acts (Lorde, Nas), food, logistics, and the aging of their friend group tradition “Operation Sandwich.”
• Takeaway: Jazz Fest is highly recommended for those who appreciate music, food, and New Orleans culture, but note logistical challenges and increased prices during festival weekends.

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2. The Central Question: Can Israel Win Back American Jews?

Timestamps: 07:10–36:09

Personal & Community Concerns

• Bradley’s Motivation:
  "I worry about Israel's security, I worry about their turn towards religious extremism, I worry about antisemitism... But the thing that I think I kind of worry about around this stuff the most actually is that mainstream American Jews... just don't support Israel nearly as much as they used to." (08:43)
• Broad Thesis: Without American support, Israel’s long-term survival is in existential danger.

Political Shifts and Key Moments

• AOC & Progressive Movements:
  • AOC’s flat refusal to send military aid to Israel marks a pivotal shift: "At a recent DSA forum, AOC said she will never send any military aid to Israel. And it wasn't even like conditional, it was just flat out we don't want anything to do with them." (09:20)
  • Not only non-Jews or the far left, but also many progressive Jews question Israel’s legitimacy.
• The Rahm Emanuel Moment:
  • "What really scared me... is Rahm Emanuel, who is Jewish, who is a moderate, who served in the IDF... he walked away from Israel." (10:49)
• Example of NY Democratic Primaries: Candidates running away from support for Israel are increasingly winning, even in Jewish-heavy districts.

The Decline in American Jewish Support (Polls & Anecdotes)

• Poll data:
  • A J Street poll shows "70% of American Jews said [the US] should not provide military support for Israel."
• Anecdotes:
  • "I don't know many non-Orthodox Jews in America who are not really unhappy with how Israel has prosecuted the war in Gaza." (12:38)

Underlying Causes

• War in Gaza and Netanyahu’s Policies:
  • Many see Israel's response as disproportionate.
  • Judicial reforms and Haredi draft exemptions signal religious extremism and erode shared national purpose.
  • "Because everyone's sacrifices, everyone's in it together, that actually makes Israel a far happier country." (15:40)
• Generational Distance & Israel’s Role for Jews:
  • Younger Jews do not see Israel as existential to their own security.
  • "Jews have been around for 5,700 years... we've never stayed in a single country permanently... Israel was created... where Jews would always have a safe place to live." (17:30)

What Should Be Done? (Analysis & Recommendations)

Diagnose Before Prescribing

• “Start with listening”:
  • "You need focus groups and meetings of mainstream American Jews all over the US... and ask questions like, how much do you support Israel? How much attention do you pay to Israel?... What can be done to change your views?" (19:10)
• Don’t just lecture or show October 7th footage:
  • "That's just going to alienate them even further. You need to thoughtfully address their concerns first." (20:49)
• Fighting antisemitism alone isn't enough.

Specific Ideas & Proposals

(Section begins ~21:41, detailed discussion)

1. Revamp Birthright:

   • Focus on reaching skeptical American Jews, not just the already-engaged.
   • "Birthright... bring over young American Jews to Israel... it tends to be effective, but you gotta focus on American Jews who are skeptical." (22:10)

2. Change Israel’s Narrative:

   • Publicize Israel’s global scientific, humanitarian, and cultural accomplishments in engaging ways.
   • "Israel does an incredible amount of good in the world... Israel developed drip irrigation... has more Nobel laureates than China, than India..." (22:53)

3. If Netanyahu Falls, Market Real Change:

   • Run a real campaign in the U.S. showing American Jews that their feedback was heard and reforms are being implemented, not just in Israel but to the diaspora as well.
   • "If the new administration... can do that [listen and address], I think that would help a lot." (25:43)

4. Engage Elected Officials Across the Spectrum:

   • Meaningfully listen and address concerns of both pro- and anti-Israel Jewish officials.
   • "You need every American Jewish elected official to be supportive of Israel. And that means not unconditional loyalty, it means understanding how they feel..." (26:34)

5. Money Isn't Everything:

   • Advocacy must be about more than big donations; true public support in districts matters more.
   • "If an anti-Israel fervor grips a congressional district, the fact that AIPAC can spend $10 million doesn't make a difference." (27:45)

6. Holocaust Remembrance:

   • Consider more museums and exhibitions, as personal connection to Holocaust survivors fades.
   • "It was present [in my family], but it's harder for me to put something on my kid's mind when they just don't have any firsthand connection..." (31:13)

7. College Outreach:

   • Use Hillels and Jewish Greek organizations to reach non-engaged students, not just those already involved in Jewish life.
   • "You gotta go after the kids who are not voluntarily, instinctively coming to Hillel." (32:59)

8. Listen Before Acting:

   • All initiatives should follow listening and honest engagement.

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3. The Challenges on College Campuses

Timestamps: 33:39–36:09

• Campus environment increasingly isolates/diminishes Jewish identity:
  • "It's a smaller sort of like somewhat insulated group now because the whole campus kind of drift is away from that." (34:02)
• Fear and alienation:
  • Students fear being “insufficiently woke.”
  • Bradley notes he’s never personally faced negativity wearing a Jewish star post-October 7th.

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4. Will Change in Israeli or U.S. Leadership Reverse the Trend?

Timestamps: 36:09–38:18

• Post-Netanyahu (or post-Trump) optimism is misplaced:
  • "Trump will eventually be gone... but Trumpism and a Trumpian zero sum mentality may very well be here to stay." (36:16)
  • The polarization and illiberalism transcend individual politicians.

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5. U.S. Political Landscape: What Does It Mean for Israel?

Timestamps: 38:18–43:02

• Democratic Primaries:
  • If progressives dominate, support for Israel in U.S. politics could further erode.
• Advice to Candidates:
  • “If your only goal is winning, you'd have to read the district and stick to that. But my hope would be that those kinds of people lose in general.” (44:22)

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6. The ‘Open Letter’ to Candidates

Timestamps: 47:25–51:18

• Bradley’s satirical but serious letter: Cold-calling donors is outdated and miserable for both candidates and donors.
• Notable quote: "The prize for winning the pie eating contest is just more pie." (50:16)
• Feedback: Ex-members of Congress confirm the letter’s message; cold calling doesn't work.

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7. Book Recommendations

Timestamps: 51:18–54:28

• Arthur Brooks’ "The Meaning of Life":
  • Bradley found the audiobook unexpectedly worthwhile—more nuanced than Brooks’ recent works.
• Michael Pollan’s "Unconsciousness":
  • Both hosts found it underwhelming; “like a really long magazine article... wish that had been like a tenth as long.” (54:23)

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Significant Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On American Jewish Support: “Without America, I don't know that Israel can survive long term. And to me that lack of support is becoming more and more apparent.” (08:58)
• On Poll Data: “30% of Jews said the US should continue providing military support for Israel and 70% said they should not… 70% of American Jews said this.” (11:33)
• On Advocacy: “You can't just hope and wait. To me that's not... you have to first do all of the listening before you can start doing the telling people what they should think.” (36:09)
• On College Life: “It does feel like a bad trend that the Jewish groups are more marginalized and keep more to themselves. Which you would want to reverse.” (34:10)
• Advice for Candidates: “If you're only goal is winning, you'd have to read the district... but my hope would be that those kinds of people lose in general.” (44:22)
• Open Letter Humor: “The prize for winning the pie eating contest is just more pie.” (50:16)

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Useful Timestamps

• Opening stories: Jazz Fest & Operation Sandwich – 00:00–07:10
• Main topic introduction ("Can Israel Win Back American Jews?") – 07:10–11:00
• Polling data & Rahm Emanuel anecdote – 11:00–13:00
• War in Gaza & Jewish generational shifts – 13:00–21:40
• Proposals for re-engagement & birthright discussion – 21:41–36:09
• College campus Jewish life – 33:39–36:09
• Comparisons to U.S. political trends (Trumpism, AOC, etc.) – 36:09–43:02
• Advising candidates on Israel policy – 43:02–45:01
• Open letter to candidates (“pie-eating contest” analogy) – 47:25–51:18
• Book recommendations – 51:18–54:28

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Tone and Style

Bradley Tusk’s tone is frank, unfiltered, occasionally humorous, and built on a foundation of experience in both politics and Jewish communal life. The conversation is occasionally digressive and anecdotal, but the substance is rigorously argued and earnest.

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Bottom Line

Bradley Tusk passionately argues that Israel is at real risk of losing American Jewish support—a perilous development that threatens its long-term security. He cautions against easy fixes, underscores the need for honest listening over lecturing, and proposes a multi-faceted campaign to reengage American Jews, particularly younger generations. He contextualizes these dynamics within broader shifts in U.S. politics, generational change, and the evolving nature of anti-Semitism and political activism in America.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Welcome back to Firewall. I'm your host, Bradley Tusk. It's a Tuesday episode. With us is our friend and producer, Hugo Lindgren. Hugo, how you doing?

[B]

I'm good. I understand there was a. There was an Operation Sandwich outing this weekend. Yeah.

[A]

It wasn't like a traditional.

[B]

I feel bad about not being invited. I know I'm not a part of the original.

[A]

You're welcome to come literally anytime. We would love to have you. All right.

[B]

I love Operation Sandwich as a concept.

[A]

I've heard about it over the years. And this was not. This was not an official Operation Sandwich. This was the group. We went to Jazz Fest in New Orleans, which is the operation.

[B]

I do want to hear about Jazz Fest. But Operation Sandwich does still do Operation Sandwich events, sort of.

[A]

So we did what. I mean, look, it started in 2002, 24 years ago. Everybody's metabolisms were a lot higher.

[B]

And there's been an oral history, right?

[A]

No, we've never. It's funny, we've always sort of said no to any press around that. I remember one time, the Chicago. They were trying to get in Chicago. Once. It did. Chicago sometimes. Once wanted to come along and do like a big spread on it. And I just felt like as the deputy governor, it was not a good look.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So we haven't. But this was, you know, typically we'll do an Operation Sandwich. You know, we used to be an Operation Sandwich once a year. Now it's one or two gatherings a year which could or could not be an Operation Sandwich. So in Chicago in December, we did a five sandwich, which felt right at our age.

[B]

Just five.

[A]

Just five.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then.

[B]

And there's you. You cannot eat them all. Right. Or is there sort of a code that, like you have to.

[A]

No, you don't have to. Especially as we get older, there's less and less rigor to it. You get more flexible as you get older. I think not maybe physically, but. But mentally. And so this was just Jazz Fest and it was three of us. But it was great.

[B]

You've been. Yes, I've been. I love it.

[A]

So for the listeners who don't know about it, it's an annual event in New Orleans over a two weekend span. Go wherever you want in end of April, beginning of May, and it's at their racetrack. And it's probably. It's like three big stages, meaning just like they're all like. It's all outdoors pretty much. And then there are different tents, like gospel tent, blues tent, jazz tent, things like that. And so at least in my experience. There's a couple of big name acts that you go that you might want to see. So for me, Lord, who I'd never seen before, played Friday night. Amazing. She was great. It was funny because when I got there Friday, because it's an all day thing, it's like there are lots of just women in their 20s, which is not that Jess is an old crowd, but it's not a Mardi Gras crowd.

[B]

Yeah, totally.

[A]

And then I realized they were all there for Lorde, but she was. I'd never seen her before. She's really a good performer, which I. Have you seen her?

[B]

Yeah, I have.

[A]

Yeah. Like. Like she dances, it's choreographed. And she was just great with the audience. And so that was phenomenal. And then the other big show we saw was Nas, who I also had not seen before. I'd never seen Nas, and he was really good too. I will say that I still think rap does better in a club than even a big. Like a Terminal 5. Or like for example, you and I saw Run the Jewels at the Garden.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It wasn't that good. It was too big of a venue. I think that's right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It kind of felt it was before Rage Against Mach and people weren't paying attention. And then not that long afterwards, I saw Run the jewels at Terminal 5 and that was amazing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So like partly, I think rap doesn't play as well on a big outdoor. Although Kendrick Lamar did. But I guess he's just more of a mega, mega act than anything else. Not a jazz festival. That was a gov ball. But then what was great was during the day especially. Cause it was hot. We spent a lot of it inside the gospel tent, the jazz tent, the blues tent, which wasn't. It's not air conditioned, but it's at least, you know, not the sun. And then the food's incredible. It's just all the New Orleans food from all tons of great places. It's really fast and easy. Lines weren't that bad. I mean, the only downsides, I would say is it's Porta Potty. So you have to sort of, in a way, be mindful of your alcohol consumption.

[B]

But you weren't drinking.

[A]

I had like a beer.

[B]

And now what's the difference? You.

[A]

You're not.

[B]

You're not using weed. So does that detract from your only.

[A]

You know what? I thought maybe for the Nas show, it would have been fun.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, but otherwise, no. And. And you know, it was just. I said the detractions are just. It's hot. Right. So you have to sort of be mindful of that. And, you know, like, any really big event, getting in and out is hard.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, so there's like. And there's some hacks, but they're not. None of them are great.

[B]

Can you get like a good VIP

[A]

package or so you can. We didn't. Because I had done that a couple of years ago and then felt like there was. It didn't really have any value.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But this time there was a moment where we really. We saw a band called the Revivalists. Do you know them? They were fine.

[B]

I've seen the name.

[A]

I don't really. It felt like kind of like a Strokes knockoff type band. Okay. But it was the main stage and we were just somehow packed right in the middle and it was super crowded. It was. It felt incredibly hot and you just were really stuck. Right. So that's when I glanced over at like the stand, like the VIP stand thing, and it was like shaded and seats, and I was like, all right, next time we got to get that. So. But. And then we had great dinners, went to Patois one night, which I hadn't been to before. And then Saba, which I go to all the time.

[B]

Saba's great.

[A]

It was. It was great. It was just a great weekend. So highly. For those of you who are looking for a quick, relatively easy, not that expensive, although I will say prices were ultra jacked up for New Orleans compared to normal New. Normally, New Orleans is a pretty inexpensive trip.

[B]

Like, what was everything the hotel was.

[A]

The hotel was like, what's the hotel

[B]

per night in, like, a nice hotel,

[A]

like you said in like Jazz festival. Normally would be like 6, 7. I usually take this place called Maison Metier in the Warehouse district. That's at 7, 800 a night. Which I know it's a lot, but I'm now. It's way too entitled, so it doesn't sound like a lot, but like I stated, the Ritz, which actually sounds nice, but it's not. It's a pretty dilapidated hotel. It's just where I got a room. And it was like 1500 a night or something.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

So. So. And then Ubers were not so, like yesterday. Even in the morning, I was going to the airport and I looked up, I was about to get an uber. It's a $237 to the airport. Yeah. I was like, fuck that. And I just got a taxi. $36,50 with a tip. But, like, I don't Fucking know. I don't know if there's like a huge shortage of drivers for Uber and so therefore there's a big supply demand thing when it's crowded. But you know, I was there in December with the kids and we took Ubers everywhere and it was sort of not. It was normal, you know, so that was weird. But overall, so there's. I guess it's a little more expensive than a normal New Orleans trip, but still, if you were to go abroad or anything like that, not more expensive than that and it's great. So if you like music and being outside with your friends and really good food and all that and you don't mind a little bit of hassle, highly recommend it.

[B]

Nice. Now we get to the serious stuff. So why don't you. Well, tell us what you want to do with the episode. So you're going to start with your piece about Israel.

[A]

That's going to be most of it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then I just want to. I wrote kind of a half funny letter, open letter last week that I'll just read and, and the recommendation.

[B]

So.

[A]

But the Israeli is going to be most of the episode and I'll give you some context and then I'll get into it, which is just, you know, I think about Israel a lot. Like I think many Jews, most Jews do, or a lot of Jews do we talk about in this podcast. Sometimes I've written some sub stacks and it's the kind of thing where there are times where I just dash off a substack. So like that the one I'm going to do after this you open letter to Congress. I literally wrote it in 20 minutes in a rage.

[B]

What, in a fit of rage?

[A]

Yes, yes. And it was fine, right? It totally worked. For what? It was very fat. What was great about it was I don't talk more about. But after it was released, within an hour, three former members of Congress emailed me like, fuck yeah. And then. But then this when I write, I've noticed when I write about Israel and I don't, you know, I've written maybe three or four pieces in the last 12 months or so. I really, really take my time. I think I'm more careful for whatever reason about this topic, not because I'm worried about offending people. Because as everyone who listens to knows show knows, I don't give a fuck about offending people. It's just that it is a very complicated subject and it's the kind of thing where I do run it by a bunch of different people to get their perspectives. I do a lot more research. I really, it just, I've been working on this for a while and, and, and it's just an idea that I had been having for a while, which is, you know, the title is Israel's Greatest Challenge Winning back American Jewish Support. And it's something that I've been worrying about for a while now. And I finally kind of had my thoughts cohere enough to put them on paper. So I'll walk us through it, kind of just jump in with questions. So look, I, I worry about Israel's security, I worry about their turn towards religious extremism, I worry about antisemitism both across the world, across the US and very much here in New York City. But the thing that I think I kind of worry about around this stuff the most actually is that mainstream American Jews, so non Orthodox, I just think they don't support Israel nearly as much as they used to. And the reason that's of such concern is because without America, I don't know that Israel can survive long term. And to me that lack of support just becoming, is becoming more and more apparent. So what you would expect, you know, at a recent DSA forum, AOC said she will never send any military aid to Israel. And it wasn't even like conditional, it was just flat out we don't want anything to do with them. And the reason why, it's obvious she is thinking of running for president. And we've talked about this before, if there's a large field of center left moderates and she's the one sort of truly progressive, she has to sort of really stay on topic for all the stuff that progressives care about. You can't really afford to deviate. And progressives today, both Jewish and non Jewish, some of them literally oppose, forget about like sending aid to Israel, just they don't think Israel should exist. Zoram Nami does not think Israel should exist. Right. And so there is a wing of Americans politically who already oppose not just a particular leadership regime in Israel or particular policy, but the fundamental existence of it itself. But what really scared me, and this is kind of what, what got this piece going, is Rahm Emanuel, who is Jewish, who is a moderate, who served in the idf. Right. He's an Israeli first name, he was on Bill Maher and he walked away from Israel. I won't, I wouldn't support you, I wouldn't send them made, you know, if they can buy it.

[B]

But just because of Netanyahu, not because

[A]

of Israel, I don't think he opposes Israel's right to exist. But this is, you know, if there were anyone in the presidential field who you thought would be a steadfast supporter of Israel on the Democratic side, it would have been Rahm Emanuel. But Rahm maybe driven in part by his beliefs, but I don't think he has that many beliefs. I think basically he is a politician through and through, is just, you know, does the math, and somehow in his mind of how he becomes the nominee, which I think is very unlikely, but still, he has a. In his mind, he has a path, right. Somehow include some amount of progressive support that would be necessary and emboldened by what he did, which is just walking away from Israel entirely. And if you look at congressional primaries, like, for example, it's New York 9 or something like that, it's kind of Brooklyn and Lower Manhattan. Dan Goldman's the congressman. Brad Lander is the primary challenger. Both are Jewish. Lander is sort of. I don't know that he opposes Israel's right to exist, but he's very, very anti Israel, very hostile to Israel. Goldman is much more supportive of Israel. And I think most people think Lander's gonna win. And I think that's one of the reasons why. And I think if you look at lots of congressional primaries this year on both sides, renouncing support for Israel has become a political imperative for many people. And look, it's not just about military aid. So Israel, you know, I've talked to people, we're fine. We actually don't need your military aid at this point. We have plenty of money. We have the ability to build our own stuff. I'm sure they'd rather have it than not. But, like, I'm not sure that the question of Israel's existence is dependent specifically on American military aid, but I think it's the. To me, the bigger problem is if America walks away from Israel and Israel is no longer seen as a key ally of the US Then that changes perceptions globally, and it makes Israel far easier target. And as anti Semitism rises and politicians across the world want to take advantage of it, that lack of US Support is going to embolden that and encourage that and set Israel off on a really difficult, dangerous path. But, you know, often on this podcast, we blame politicians for things. We blame the underlying political incentives for their choices, which is still the case. But what really worries me is that mainstream American Jews like Aram Emanuel, who. Who have been the bedrock of support for Israel since 1948, they've lost faith, too. So there was a poll by J Street, who I very rarely agree with, but nonetheless, I talked to our friend Jeff Pollack and just said, do you feel this poll is methodologically sound? He's like, yes. So the headline was that 60% of Jews surveyed opposed the US war against Iran. That's what got the press attention. But then when I looked into it, this is the number that really scared me. 30% of Jews said the US should continue providing military support for Israel and 70% said they should. Not. Not 70% of Americans or progressives or Democrats. 70% of American Jews said this. So. And then anecdotally, like, I don't know about you, but I've kind of found the same thing. Right. I don't know many non orthodox Jews in America who are not really unhappy with how Israel has prosecuted the war in Gaza. It doesn't mean that they don't think Hamas is to blame. Every non, crazy, crazy left winger who, maybe Mondami's wife, thinks that somehow Hamas is virtuous, but the vast majority of people, especially Jews, don't think that. But most people, including me, did think that there came a point where Israel had exacted its revenge, proved its point, and, and the civilian damage that was a byproduct of it was so severe that it ceased being justifiable. And I think that was the case for a while. I think because of that, that really changed perceptions by American Jews about Israel, combined with the fact that, think again, American Jews, and I understand that it's different than Israeli Jews, when I talk to my friends in Israel, many of whom don't support Netanyahu, do see value in him in protecting them. Right. I think before October 7, most of them would have said get rid of him. In fact, most of them will still even oppose getting rid of him this October. But his judicial reforms, for example, were. And he's very Trumpian across the board. But he was trying to buy off the far right religious parties who he needs to have his majority so he can stay as prime minister by exempting the Haredi, which is sort of the ultra orthodox, from the draft. And the reason, to me that was so problematic is, and this gets back to a big theme of this podcast, what makes Israel, in my view, such a successful country is that because everyone has to serve in the military, there's a shared sense of purpose, there's a shared sense of values. And because everyone's sacrifices, everyone's in it together, that actually makes Israel a far happier country. So in the world happiness report, I think Israel was eighth overall globally and second for people under the age of 25, compared to 23rd and 62nd, respectively for the U.S. and so that had already been troubling. But then when you add on kind of the excess of the war, that combination. And yes. Did the global mainstream media and social media unfairly portray Israel in many ways around the war? Absolutely. But you can't deny the fact that a lot of innocent people also died, including a lot of kids. And I think even more sort of scary to me is that when I ask American Jews like, do you see the existence of Israel as existential to your own survival? The answer is no. And I find that shocking and crazy because anti Semitism is very much on the rise in the US and to me, and this is just the way that I was raised, but that Israel was an insurance policy. Jews have been around for 5,700 years, 5,750 or something at this point. And we've never stayed in a single country permanently. And the reason why is there's always anti Semitism and persecution. And that has driven us away. And that ultimately culminated in the Holocaust. And Israel was created a few years later by the UN as a response to the Holocaust, where the Jews would always have a safe place to live. And to me at least, look, do I hope that Jews can be safe in the US forever? Of course I do. And do I think that I'll at least be able to spend my life here safely as a Jew? Yes, most likely. But I don't believe that we will sort of indefinitely be welcome in the US and maybe that will come sooner than later. And so Israel is always this place you could go. Right. And if America no longer supports Israel, I think Israel's ability to exist is much more tenuous. And I don't think America will support Israel if American Jews aren't banging the table for Israel. Right. But with that said, this is not a piece or a thought process about condemning American Jews for insufficient loyalty. What I'd like to do is figure out what the problem is and how to solve it. So if I were the UJA or American Jewish Congress or any of those big organizations, my main focus would be not what are others doing, but what are other ethnicities, other people saying? Non Jews. It would be focused on Jews and it would be what do we need to do to win back Jewish support in America for Israel. And ideally, and this is a very hard thing to do in any community where you have different groups who all end up competing with each other. But they would around this at Least kind of combine their expertise and resources and run a really thoughtful campaign that starts with listening, right? It's not by talking, it's not by persuading. It's first figuring out why are people upset. And it has to be deeper than just, I don't like Bibi or the war, whatever it is. And I think you need focus groups and meetings of mainstream American Jews all over the US across all partisan lines, the Democrats, Republicans, Independents, and every wing within, and ask questions like, how much do you support Israel? How much attention do you pay to Israel? If you don't support Israel, why not? If your support has decreased over time, how come? How much of your opposition is specific to Bibi and how much goes deeper? What Israeli policies towards the Palestinians would change your views, if any? How did you view Israel before October 7th? And were your concerns already percolating? Or is this all about Gaza? How have your views about Israel changed over time? Independent of October 7th, how do your views about Israel impact your activities and choices around being Jewish in America? How much has Israel shifted the political right into more religious fervor, been an issue for you? And then most importantly, what can be done to change your views? Once you can answer these questions and only afterwards, then you start developing clear programs and response. And what you, you can't do, which I think it's going to be the instinct for a lot is you show them the October 7th video and say, see, you were wrong, I told you so. Like, that's not going to work. That's just going to alienate them even further. You need to thoughtfully address their concerns first. And a lot of the critics, again, just be, just to be clear, is unfair, is uninformed, is one sided. No country facing the threats that it faces would be held to these same standards the US had 9 11, which is sort of like, I guess statistically in terms of the amount of people casualties similar October 7th. And we decimated Afghanistan and Iraq. So. And while the Iraq war was incredibly stupid because they had nothing to do with 9 11, it's not like that many people in the US for a long time were like, oh, this is bad. It was like, well, they fucked with us. This is what you get. So Israel is held to a totally different standard because of anti Semitism, no question about it. But it's also just the reality that we live in. And so you have to work with that reality. And so, you know, there's a bunch of different ideas and I'll go through some that I've identified in the column. I Don't know if they're the right ideas. Some of these are being worked on now. Some have tried and failed. Some people that I showed this to in Israel before I published the column said, none of this will work. And the only thing you can do is just fight anti Semitism and fight anyone who disparages Jews in Israel. And you know, what do they mean

[B]

by fight anti Semitism? What does that even mean?

[A]

Just loudly condemn. Run billboards and TV ads and that kind of stuff. And it's just like, I'm not. That may be part of the solution, but I don't think it's the, you know, it's certainly not the entirety of it. Right. And so here are some ideas. But again, I don't think that you can really come up with a solution until you truly understand the problem. And I don't think we truly understand the problem. But first is the Birthright program. Do you know what that is?

[B]

Oh, yes.

[A]

Yeah. So for anyone doesn't know, they bring over young American Jews to Israel and just show them over a couple of weeks, like, here's your homeland, here's who we are, here's what it's like. And it tends to be effective in helping people really understand. Because, look, that I have not. I've been to Israel a bunch, but I did not do Birthright. I actually didn't quite need it in the sense that my family was so Zionist.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That there was no. There's no doubt in my mind of the necessity of Israel. Right. Or the value of Israel. But it has been an effective program. And look, I mean, you just see that generally people who travel and people who read and learn and understand a diversity of perspectives tend to be a lot more thoughtful about different issues than people who are totally just only willing to hear what they already think. You know, a lot of Trump support, or a lot of support by. For AOC and Bernie and those guys come from really, them trying to prevent any other outside voices. It comes from the left demanding safe spaces and, you know, denouncing anyone who disagrees with them. It certainly comes from a lot of Trump's behavior, because the truth is, when people understand more, see more, learn more, you realize that the world is a very big, very complicated place with lots of different perspectives, and you have to try to balance them. And you can't just say that everyone disagrees with you is automatically stupid or evil. And so Birthright, I think, would be really important. But I think you really have to focus on. Don't preach to the choir. Right? You Gotta focus on American Jews who are skeptical of Israel, but are willing to sort of take the free trip and check it out. And that's gotta really be your focal point. And, you know, a big expansion that I think potentially could help. Second would be, I think you gotta sort of change perceptions about Israel itself. So right now, Israel, I think is just seen on social media as this sort of aggressor country that, yes, was invaded, but then responded disproportionately and hurt a lot of innocent people. And whether you agree with that or not, or think that that's partly true and partly not true, it doesn't change the fact that Israel does an incredible amount of good in the world, right? From research to scientific discovery to foreign aid, scholarship ideas. Israel developed drip irrigation. Israel provides its ass relief to over 140 countries. Israel developed thousands and thousands of new medications used all over the world. Israel has more Nobel laureates than China, than India, than Spain, than Brazil. So there's a great story to tell, but you have to tell it in a really engaging, interactive way. Again, if you're just yelling at people or lecturing them, it's not going to work. You have to sort of show in a really compelling narrative, here's this incredible thing and oh, did you know this too was Israel. That too was Israel. Israel and kind of build it. Third is if there. So there's elections in October in Israel. I think most people think it's sort of 50, 50 of whether or not Netanyahu stays, wins or not. And there's also the complication of does he get a pardon or something that maybe includes a deal for him to leave? Don't know. But my guess is he won't agree to leave. As I understand it, and I am in no way an expert on domestic Israeli politics, but if every of all of the different forces that are not Netanyahu came together, then it might be possible to get a majority seats in Knesset and win. If you have multiple candidates who all, you know, people who all think they should be in charge and they're not willing to put the collective good ahead of their own needs, which is typical of politicians, then, you know, BP probably is a pretty good shot at winning. But if there is a change in power, I think you need the new administration in their efforts domestically to sort of say, here's our agenda, here's what we want to do. I think you got to. And I've never seen this done before by administration, but you kind of have to run the same thing again in the US Right you have to both show Israelis during the campaign afterwards what you want to do and then what you're doing. But I think you also post election need to have a permanent campaign in the US of like, okay, things were bad. And by the way, that's an easy way narrative at that point because you've won the election by saying that, right? It's not, you know, a Netanyahu know number two is, you know, ascending to power. So things were wrong in these ways. We agree and here's what we're doing about it and show them that there is real change, real progress. And if you can combine that with we heard you and if you can make American Jews feel like that their thoughts were in some way heard and incorporated, people want to feel seen. I mean we've, we've learned this in study after study and we've learned this in our real life anecdotally all the time. Which is in many ways people care even more about the fact that you take the time, and I don't always do this, but I try to, to listen to them and hear their thoughts and hear their ideas and consider them than if you actually do what they want. Not always, but a lot of the time. And I think that if the new administration, if there is one, can do that, I think that would help a lot. Next would be, I think you gotta talk to American Jewish left officials and ask them how are you feeling? What are you hearing? What motivates your support for Israel, what has changed it? And understand you're going to get people like my brother in law, Josh Got Heimer, who was fervently, fervently Zionist and pro Netanyahu and everything else. And you're going to get people like Brad Lander who are really anti Zionist and anti Netanyahu and you have to listen to all of them because you need every American Jewish elected official to be supportive of Israel. And that means not unconditional loyalty, it means understanding how they feel and being able to work with it. And they do the same thing with politicians who have just been historically supportive of Israel to say like, where are you now? How do you feel if you want to stay supportive of Israel, but you think it's getting harder? Why? What can we do differently to help you with that? And there's always this assumption that like, oh, it's just about money. It's not just about money. Right. You know, this is the sort of naivete of people who think they understand politics but often don't, which is just money. The only point of money in politics, unless it's outright bribery, is it goes to a campaign to try to win an election. And yes, ads can be important, but if a specific issue is so overwhelming, you're not changing it with ads, it doesn't matter. And so if an anti Israel fervor grips a congressional district, the fact that AIPAC can spend $10 million doesn't make a difference. And that naivete, I think is incredibly harmful. And yet my gut is that most of the sort of board members of the big Jewish American, Jewish political groups, policy groups, are people who are older, financially successful, made money, and think that money's the only thing that matters in life. And therefore they're in some ways the worst people to lead this effort. There's been kind of an underdog narrative and strategy to support Israel since 1948, but I think it's not working, in part because it's not accurate. Right. Israel is not frail, it's not poor, it's not weak. It is strong and proud and wealthy. And by the way, people respond to that narrative, that's how Trump got elected. Right. So you using a narrative that doesn't feel authentic doesn't work. And there is an alternate narrative that is authentic that if done properly, not in an arrogant way, but if done properly, could generate support. People like to be on the winning team. You can certainly do more about the Holocaust itself. Now, I have a line here saying add more Holocaust museums and exhibitions to remind people why Israel must exist. Some people push back on that and said, yeah, that doesn't work. But the reason that I at least think it's worth considering is we are now at the point where pretty much anyone who was in the Holocaust, even if they survived, is now dead. And even, like their children, like my dad, who was born in 1945 in Europe. My dad's 81, right. So my kids don't know anyone who was in the Holocaust.

[B]

Does your dad talk about it with your kids?

[A]

Yeah, but he doesn't. You know, he lived in the refugee camps in Germany for five years, but he was little, so he doesn't remember much of it. Right. And so I just think that there's a loss of, you know, I grew up with my grandparents talking about it all the time in different ways. Some were my, you know, some more willing in some ways to talk than others. But it was present. But it was present. Right. And so it's on my mind, but it's harder for me to put something on my kid's mind when they just don't have any firsthand connection to it,

[B]

but they don't have any doubts or think that it's made up or anything, right?

[A]

No. And of my kids, you know, Abby is progressive, and I don't know, she's proudly Jewish, but I think she certainly opposed a lot of what happened in the war itself. Right. Lyle's pretty Zionist, and they might be reactions to each other to a certain extent as well. So my guess is he's a little more aware than they are. But, you know, I do feel I took Lyle to Datgau last year. I should probably insist that Abby go while she's in Europe right now. And, you know, we haven't gone to Israel simply because each time we've had, like, trips canceled and all that. But I need to take them both to see Israel and also to go to Yad Vashem specifically. I was in Miami a few weeks ago, and there was a Holocaust memorial there in Miami beach that's particularly meaningful to me because residents of Miami, where my grandparents eventually moved to, could pay to have in the fundraising. One of the things that you got was you could have family members who died in the Holocaust, have their names engraved. It took me a little while to find it. I had to call my dad, but I finally found it. A section that has like eight tusks on there, plus Gabriel Gatto, who is my father's grandfather and my dad's named after. And they were Russian. He died as a member of the Red army, but, you know, more of that. So I do think there's value to it. And the last one is, you know, putting together a program with Hillels across the country. Want to see how college students feel. But two, again, I think that because someone said, well, they're already doing this, but they're probably already doing it with the kids that are much more proudly Jewish, identify already with it. And college campuses are the hottest bed of progressivism and anti Israel sentiment and anti Semitism. And you gotta go after the kids who are not voluntarily, instinctively coming to hell. Right. And, you know, places that have Jewish fraternities and sororities, you gotta go work with them. And so I really do think that you gotta get to kids as Jewish American Jewish kids when they're in college and use there are organizing centralized entities that you could work through that become much harder once they're in the real world.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I was up visiting one of my girls at college this weekend, and we actually talked a little bit about sort of Jewish life on campus. And both of them said that it's definitely more of a. It's a smaller sort of like somewhat insulated group now because the whole campus kind of drift is away from that,

[A]

especially brown, I would imagine. Yeah.

[B]

So it's a, it's, it's, it does feel like a bad. No, I think it was more brown actually, now that I think about it.

[A]

That makes sense.

[B]

But it, but it actually felt like a pretty. Like it's definitely a bad trend that the Jewish groups are more marginalized and, and, and keep more than themselves. Which you would want to reverse that, obviously.

[A]

Yeah. Now I will say something I started wearing outwardly only because that's the first time I thought it really mattered. A Jewish star on my neck after October 7th and after there was. The antimicrobialism started pretty quickly afterwards. I have never. So it's been almost three years now, is that right? Yeah. And two and a half years. Interestingly, no one has ever once made a negative comment to me in any way about it. Not to say that there is an anti. Semitism, but I think there's a fear by college kids of being different and being called insufficiently woke or whatever it might be. I'm not sure the fear. And maybe it's just that I'm a grown man or maybe it's that I'm, you know, a reasonably big guy or whatever it is. But like I, I think that they have fears that might not be realized, but again, there has to be comfort for them in living that.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I, I don't know if it's all just fear there, there. Although that's probably a big part of it, but just a sense that like people don't get it. You know what I mean? That, that they need to stick to their. Themselves more. And I think that's. That's obviously not good for any group.

[A]

No.

[B]

On a college campus, college is supposed to be the opposite of that, so.

[A]

Totally. Anyway, so look, of all the. I think it was eight ideas I just listed. Maybe you're all wrong. I don't know. And that's why you have to first do all of the listening before you can start doing the telling people what they should think apart. And look, maybe Bibi loses his job in October and time passes and just things change simply because of that. That would be great. But I don't think that you can just sort of hope and wait. Like to me that's not.

[B]

Do you think it's similar to sort of sort of America post Trump, the idea that things are just going to be better when, when this passes.

[A]

Well, you know, we talked this before where Trump will eventually be gone one way both from office and then he's almost 80. Right. But like Trumpism and a Trumpian zero sum mentality may very well be here to stay. I mean, he didn't create the notion of it's every man for himself and all that matters in life is having more than anyone else. And the way to get what you want is to fight with everyone and denigrate everyone and demand obsequious all the time. He's a manifestation of that. Right. That has been a Trend since the 1960s, I would argue, and that, you know, Trump in many ways is the logical conclusion of it. There's a real risk that even if a Democrat wins, they will say, shit, that guy. I'm gonna have different policies in that guy. But if I just ignore rule of law and I ignore everyone and I bully everyone and I insult everyone, I can just do whatever the fuck I want. And it is possible that that mindset continues if Vance is elected. He'll certainly try that. I think AOC would try a version of that for sure. Rahm, I think probably would too now. I think so in many ways, when I think about, we had a discussion at Jazz Fest over what do you do if the nominees were Vance and aoc and it was really tough because for me, in part, while I would still probably agree with AOC on more policy stuff, I think both of them would be extensions of Trump with different policies from aoc. But at the end of the day, a zero sum intolerance perspective. Right. There's no one more illiberal than sort of the traditional liberals these days. And Vance will just be a bad imitation of Trump. So in many ways, if you're thinking about who to support in 28, the real question might not even be party or policy. It is who is more likely to restore the norms.

[B]

Now, given your sort of fear, if that's the right word of an aoc, as the, as the Democratic nominee shouldn't. At the same time you say, like, don't bother paying attention to the race right now. It's way too early. Do you feel like there should be more organizations?

[A]

Well, it's a good question. So I know they sound contradictory.

[B]

Well, not necessarily.

[A]

Well, I would say this. I do think that given. So there was a poll, the Times, Washington Post or somebody. Trump's at a 58% disapproval rating. And every day this war in Iran goes on, that goes up because the economic, it hasn't really hit the US That Much yet other than gas prices, which are definitely going up. There's a crazy guy lying down in the middle of the street on Orchard. It looks like some sort of yoga pose maybe.

[B]

Yeah, he's doing some kind of like weird squat thing.

[A]

The only good news is he's sort of right in the middle of the street. So I think because it's not a fast moving speed for cars, a car will probably see him, but maybe the lower big suv. If he keeps crouching down like that,

[B]

someone must be taking a video of him, right?

[A]

Oh, don't know. Anyway, so I still think that as long as AOC is not the nominee, the Democrat will win simply because Trump is so unpopular and advanced, can't fill his shoes. Well, if, if, yeah, Vance will just be poor.

[B]

A joke. A joke.

[A]

Joke's fair word. Yeah, Rubio would be a far stronger candidate for sure. But he's still going to have the mantle of Trump. Right. And so I think that's going to make it really hard for him. Plus, you know, he's run for president before and didn't, didn't have any traction. But, and you keep in mind the energy crisis so far is domestically hitting us mainly around gas right now. But, you know, petroleum and energy is a part of every single, not every, but many, many products, helium or the machines necessary to make products. And so you're already seeing shortages of different things like, you know, around the world and as that comes here more and more and inflation goes up and just the supply of like medical care because MRI machines need certain, you know, certain types of equipment and which requires, you know, petroleum or helium or whatever it might be that starts getting doled out and rationed those that disapproval is going to skyrocket, you know, to mid-60s, I think. So I think Trump probably has a floor of the, let's call it 33 just for round number a third. But I think you, there's almost nobody that doesn't have an opinion of him. And I think it'll get, it could go as high as 66. So, so all that saying that, I think that while I don't there's a pretty good chance that a Democrat might win and therefore that's been my reason to say you don't really need to pay that much attention to the primary because there's not much distinction between say Whitmer or Shapiro or Mark Kelly or whoever at the end of the day. And even if it's someone like Newsom who has a lot more negatives, he probably still wins the general election. If he's the nominee, maybe I should rethink that a little bit in terms of, of those candidates and again, I think of dlc, I think she will lose. But, but of the rest of them, should you restack them in terms of who is the most likely to restore the pre Trumpian norms of rule and law. Rule of law and kind of in respect for the institutions that do work in this country and who is most likely to continue a Trumpian mindset. So that's maybe, maybe I'll. We can go through in another podcast, sort of. So, but, but look, ultimately, here's one thing we know about politics in America, right? Politicians do what's in their political interest, they do what's going to impact their next election, and that's it. We are not going to make them different people. So if they are not hearing constantly from American Jews about supporting Israel like they have since 1948, they're gonna stop doing it, right? Because Jews otherwise are not that popular. And it's not just a money question or a donations question. So you can't make them different people. We can only make our own people more supportive and engaged. And look, to me, at least in Israel, without US Support and Israel no longer seems a top priority for the US Is in Israel facing even more existential risk than it does today. And I think that's a tragedy of active proportions for the long term security and survival not just of Israel, but of the Jewish people. And the time to start preventing that. Me doing so thoughtfully and earnestly and exhaustively and rigorously and relentlessly is right now.

[B]

Let's say you're advising a Democratic candidate who's facing some kind of primary situation. How do you talk to them about a position on Israel?

[A]

You know, to me, I'm not the, the question is, do you want to win or do you want to be?

[B]

Let's say they want to win.

[A]

Then I think you probably have to look at the polls and look at your district and see where, where it is, right? If you were in a, in the suburb somewhere, it might be a more moderated position. If it's, you know, Park Slope or the Upper west side where they're, you know, let's just call it the hotbeds of two of the big races right now in New York, it's a lot tougher, right? Like I see my friend Michael Asher, who is, you know, clearly pro Israel, but also trying to win a congressional primary that is, you know, Manhattan, and a lot of the votes come from the Upper west side, and he's you see him trying to be thoughtful about it, and it's really hard. And he's ended up just pissing off a lot of people because, you know, people tend to either want to hear that you're 100% with them, people want to hear that. Right. So if you're not, you can't make everyone happy on this one. So I don't know. I mean, I think, you know, he's someone who tries to stick to what he believes. With that said, I still truly look at members of Congress and if they're the kinds of people, which is most of them, and all they do is just pivot based on whatever the latest polling or social media says, they stand for nothing. They believe in nothing. No one really respects them. People might kiss their ass because they need them, but they don't respect them. They can't leave Congress because they have no other skills at that point. But at the same time, they're not really accomplishing anything meaningful either, and they're not happy. So, like, you know, to me, at least, I guess, you know, if you're only goal or winning, you'd have to read the district and stick to that. But I just think that, you know, my hope would be that those kinds of people lose in general.

[B]

There was an interview with McMaster, who is Trump's national security advisor in the first term, last week that was pretty interesting on the subject of, like the war against Iran. And he was both. His point of view was this had to be done at some point. Now, he was not supportive of the way it was being run by Trump and Hegseth and everybody else, but he was pretty like, well, but we did

[A]

that according to Trump. We knocked out their nuclear. The only reason you'd have to do it is if you thought they were going to close enough to a nuclear weapon that they would both. Both have and deploy. Right, Right. Keep up. We already have a North Korea.

[B]

I guess. I guess my question just is, are you optimistic at all that this can be like. That the war can be settled in a way that is not worse than we went into it with? Or is it just like.

[A]

Only if it just. That's a pure question. When it ends, right. Every day sooner than it ends is a yes. And the question is, what would move Trump that so far in this term, the only thing that has really moved him are the markets. And so far the ST stock market has been strong despite the war and despite the gas prices increases. If we start to see inflation really increase, that's going to change It. Right. So if the market starts to really go down, then all of a sudden, because Trump does seem to judge his success in part by the stock market, then that could prompt him to change course. And keep in mind, I mean, he can sort of end it whenever he wants in the sense that there's no objective criteria. It's just whatever he feels like saying that he, he's gonna say he won no matter what. So it's when does that point hit? But ironically, if you're a congressional rep, you're starting to see congressional Republicans say, you know, after 60 days, you got it, which we're already at. The President has to come to Congress for this.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So let's say he called their. I mean, I don't think he will cause give a shit, but let's say he called their beloved, said, okay, great Congress. You know, Republicans still control the House and Senate. Give me what I want. What are the Republicans do. It is every day this war continues reduces their odds of keeping the Senate. The House has already gone. Right. And yet they're totally terrified of Trump. Most of them have been supportive of the war itself. So, you know, they're in a pickle.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Speaking of which, let's go right to the next one.

[B]

Go to the pickle.

[A]

Yes. This is an open letter.

[B]

Open letter.

[A]

Dear Candidates for Congress, this has to stop. We're both engaged in a highly destructive, extremely unpleasant relationship. One that is miserable for you and annoying for us. You're told by your consultants that you must raise a certain amount of money to get the DCCC or the NRCC or whatever group to take you seriously. That by raising a certain amount, you'll get better placement and a brief mention in a political blog and maybe a better tweet by a reporter who covers this stuff. And that one of the ways to do it is by spending endless hours cold calling donors you don't know just because their name is on some list, it isn't working. Think about it. What's the part of running you hate the most? It isn't giving speeches and going to campaign events. You feel like you have good ideas worth sharing. You like doing media. You don't mind speaking at fundraisers. But cold calling strangers to ask for money, People who almost never answer the call or return your voicemail. People who are annoyed if they do answer because they thought it was someone else, and then they realize it's you, that's torture. If you wanted to do that, you'd pursue a career in telemarketing instead. Cold calling does not result in raising lots of money. You don't answer the phone from numbers you don't know. No one else does either. So calling mainly just results in you be able to tell the consultants that you did what they told you to do. And of course they tell you to do it. They don't care if you're miserable. They just want you to raise as much as possible so they can make as much as possible. Often to send voters endless direct mail that they don't read, or make TV ads that are way too expensive and inefficient. The cost of doing it, your time, your motivation, your happiness is absolutely irrelevant to them. But it's not irrelevant to you. And for those of us getting the calls, it is insanely annoying. My phone rings at least half a dozen times a day from some random person running for Congress. I never answer. My outgoing voicemail literally says that if you're a candidate for office, do not leave a message. And yet many of you still do because you're not listening to my message. You're just waiting to cross my name off the list. There is zero chance I will call you back. Zero. That's true if you're a first time candidate. It's true if you're a sitting US Senator or governor. And if I do donate, it's because I already know you, or someone I know already knows you and they ask me to help. That's it. This isn't working. You know it, I know it.

[B]

It.

[A]

Even the consultants telling you to make the calls know it. In fact, if you wanted me to like you, you'd propose legislation allowing candidates and political committees to be placed to on the do not call list that I'd appreciate. If you do win, it doesn't get better. The process just continues over and over again. The prize for winning the pie eating contest is just more pie. So take a stand. Tell your consultants. No. Tell the insiders. No. Tell. Spend your time doing something more likely to result in actual votes. It'll make both of us a lot happier.

[B]

Nice. And you've already said you've gotten some good feedback on that.

[A]

Yeah, well, it's funny, like I said, a couple of former members of Congress are all like, read it. Like, fuck yeah. And I was trying. I said, well, did you? Am I wrong? Did you raise a lot of money making calls and. No. No, not at all. And I asked Josh and I said, do you do this? He said, I did it in my first campaign and I've never done it since. And he raises more money than almost anybody it's just not even a good way to raise money.

[B]

Do they still have people just in general making cold calls out there, like, to voters?

[A]

I think on a big grassroots campaign, yes, but it's really much more tax and social because, I mean, literally, do you know anyone that just answers the phone from a number they don't already know?

[B]

No.

[A]

I mean, once. It's funny, the other day I accidentally did answer a call from a candidate because I was waiting for Carvana, and it was from a 602 area code, and I know they're based in Phoenix, so. And then I was. It was like, hello, I'm ready for, like, I'll call you.

[B]

Bye.

[A]

And I was like, goodbye. Yeah.

[B]

Did you sell your car, by the way?

[A]

They're coming to pick it up today.

[B]

Nice. Yeah. Okay. Recommendation?

[A]

Yeah. So I'd always been a big Arthur Brooks fan because I really liked his work on happiness. And then I've kind of soured on him in the last couple of years because I thought his last two books were pretty facile. I think that my guess is his publisher, in an attempt to sell more books, told him to dumb it down. And he did. And as a result, like, I don't know how those books did. Maybe they were right, but as a reader, I just thought they were, like, not interesting, totally repetitive, didn't learn anything. And so when he had a new book come out this year, I thought, I'm not gonna read it. And then it was on Spotify, and I don't ever listen to audiobooks, but you do, and you're always a advocate of it. And this book popped up and I kinda like, didn't have any podcasts I felt like listening to, so I was like, all right, let me just try this for the next 20 minutes, or wherever I was going to. And it was good. And so I ended up listening to the whole thing. So one turns out I do like listening to audiobooks. I'm not sure.

[B]

Did you go take a walk or did you listen to your house or what'd you do?

[A]

I just listened to it in the times that I would normally listen to podcasts. I listened to it in Ubers on the subway when walking. I was on a flight. Finished it pretty fast, actually. And it's a much better book because what he does, it's called the Meaning of Life. It's specifically about finding purpose in your life. And it is a good mix of a few things. One stories about. So he. He teaches business school, and it's his at Harvard, and His students are sort of the ultimate strivers and, you know, they want to win at everything and be perfect at everything. And so in his view, they're the perfect test case because they're the people that have all of the wrong values and understanding of what happiness is. So it's about his interactions with them. It's about his own life and what has worked and what has failed and what he's learned. It's not a ton of neuroscience, but enough to be interesting without sort of feeling like too much. A lot of good historical anecdotes and lessons. And so I thought it was just a really well done book. I think actually the other day with Bob, I mentioned sort of like a five part test that he gave on it. So anyway, if you like that kind of stuff and if you like Arthur Brooks and then you have felt like his last few books were disappointing, this one's actually worth thinking about.

[B]

Are you interested in Michael Pollan's book Unconsciousness?

[A]

You know, I read about 50, maybe 70 pages and I just thought it was too boring.

[B]

Yeah, it's funny because I read that for my book club and I like Michael Pollan a lot and he's obviously kind of a legend and it was weird. It's like he couldn't find the book. It was just, it was like a homework assignment, so. Right.

[A]

It felt like work. And after a while I'm like, I don't, I don't have to read this about school.

[B]

No, you don't.

[A]

Was it worth reading it all the way through?

[B]

You know, I, I found it. There was always some good things. You just as you, as you went on, like, it wasn't, it wasn't like, oh my God, it was all useless. But it didn't have any sort of really kind of guiding kind of momentum or coherence to it that really kind of paid off. It just felt like a really long magazine article and you get to the end, you're like, God, I wish that had been like a tenth as long.

[A]

Right. Yeah. So. Well, I read about, I don't know, 50 to 70 pages, so I probably got about the right amount.

[B]

Yeah, you did. All right.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Thanks.

[A]

Firewall is recorded at my bookstore, PNT Netware, located at 180 Orchard street on the Lower east side of Manhattan. We'd love to hear from you with questions, feedbacks or idea for a guest. Just email me at Bradleyirewall Media or find me on LinkedIn. And to keep up with what's on my mind and my latest writing, please follow my new [e-mail] thanks again for listening.