LIVE FROM P&T: The Astonishing Depolarizing Power of Dogs

Summary

Podcast Summary: Firewall with Bradley Tusk

Episode: LIVE FROM P&T: The Astonishing Depolarizing Power of Dogs

Date: July 9, 2026
Location: P&T Knitwear, 180 Orchard Street, NYC
Guests: Ellie Gottheimer & Lara Williams (co-authors of Shmuel and Ozzy Go to Washington)
Host: Bradley Tusk

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Episode Overview

This live episode celebrates the launch of Shmuel and Ozzy Go to Washington, a children’s book written by teenagers Ellie Gottheimer and Lara Williams. The conversation explores the book’s inspiration—using dogs as metaphors to teach children about bipartisanship—and broader themes around polarization, friendship across divides, the impact of social media, and the perspective of Gen Z on politics and society. The session features engaging personal anecdotes, audience Q&A, and reflections on the generational shift in civic participation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Genesis of the Book and Its Message

• Background on Shmuel and Ozzy Go to Washington:
  The book features two dogs (based on the authors' own pets), from different backgrounds, whose fathers are political rivals in a dog congress. The dogs must overcome their differences and work together—a metaphor for crossing political divides.
  [00:49] B: “The idea for the book...came from what Lara and I had both really observed, which is...the left and the right against each other. And kids these days are really just seeing this extremism and...this incredible divide. And we...wanted...to fuel this message...that even if you’re so different...you can work together.”

• Why Dogs?
  The authors chose dogs as relatable characters to reach young readers. [03:02] B: “We were trying to think, what's the best way to get [bipartisanship] across to kids?...Everyone loves dogs.”

• Intended Audience:
  Targeted at children ages 4–8, but the message is universal.
  [03:59] C: “Anybody can get a takeaway from this...no matter what age, it just sends a great message.”

• Underlying Principle:
  Avoiding overt politics:
  [04:09] B: “We tried to...take the politics out of it...for these little kids, it’s kind of just the idea that two people can be friends.”

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2. Writing Process & Challenges

• Collaborative Process:
  Writing came easily due to shared vision; the real challenge was illustration.
  [02:30] B: “Getting it to be able to be printed out, getting it illustrated...was...the hardest step.”
  [15:13] C: “You would not be able to tell a dog from a house if we were the ones illustrating.”
• Duration:
  [15:17] B: “...the writing process probably took a month, and then everything else kind of just set out from there.”
• Creative Influence:
  Ellie’s creative writing class contributed to the project’s inspiration.
  [16:41] B: “We actually wrote a children’s book [in creative writing]...but all the illustrations...were AI...it was exciting to get to do it in kind of the right way this time.”

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3. Teenagers, Politics, and Social Media

• Perspective on Polarization & Disinformation:
  Many teens get political information from social media, leading to misinformation and polarization.
  [07:45] B: “I think the difference is how many people are engaged in politics versus how many people are reading misinformation...People are getting their news from TikTok...it’s all this disinformation.”
• On Bans of Social Media for Kids Under 16:
  [05:21] C: “I personally like the idea...I wish I would have waited [to get social media] just because...you compare yourself to all these other people...their world is social media.”
• Parental Advice:
  [12:47] C: “Try to keep your kids off of social media as long as possible...it sets unrealistic expectations.” [13:13] B: “It’s incredibly important to educate your children as early as possible and teach them real life ideals...teach them not to believe everything they see on social media.”

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4. Personal Stories: Friendship Beyond Divides

• Bonding through Differences:
  The two authors—one from suburban New Jersey, one from rural Oklahoma—emphasize their differences and resulting friendship. [11:13] C: “We're just really showing how different we truly are, but how...great we get along.” [12:00] A & B:
  • Blowouts vs. shooting ranges as cultural experiences
  • Wrestling and field hockey: teaching each other their respective sports
• Humor and Self-Deprecation:
  [14:47] B: “She makes me sound like an asshole, by the way.”

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5. Optimism and Civic Engagement

• Hope for the Future:
  [05:56] B: “...we're built...on great democratic ideals...we’re going through a polarized time...but I do have a lot of faith.” [06:26] B: “...the fact that there’s kids out there like Lara and I, who...believe our government can work together...”

• Role Models in Their Families:
  Both authors are children of politicians from opposite parties who are personally close.
  [07:15] C: “They're on different sides of the aisles, but they work out every...morning…[and have] dinners all the time...I would do it just like them.”

• Audience Question: Additional Books?
  Room for a sequel.
  [14:11] C: “It's definitely in the air.” [14:22] B: “Maybe doing it through our adventures in Oklahoma...Ozzy going to the groomer...”

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6. Charity & Giving Back

• Proceeds Support Project Night Night
  [16:00] C: “They are going to Project Night Night...an organization that gives Night Night boxes to homeless children under 12...” [16:24] B: “We're really excited to give proceeds to kids who weren't as fortunate as us...maybe get some of our books in...Night Night packages.”

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7. Audience QA Highlights

• Future Projects: Sequels are possible, depending on interest and inspiration.
• On Inspiration: Not one event, but “the culture in Washington, D.C. is getting increasingly polarized…if there was a time to do it, the time was now.”
• On Writing Process: Collaboration went smoothly; illustrations were the biggest challenge.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Bipartisanship:
  [03:02] B: “If we can find this common ground, hopefully other people can as well.”

• On Social Media:
  [05:21] C: “Kids really do believe everything they see on social media, and that's all they see. They don't get out in the real world to see what's actually happening.” [12:47] C: “Try to keep your kids off of social media as long as possible.” [13:13] B: “Everything is really fake and filtered...teaching them how to use it correctly and...educating them...is so important.”

• On Friendship:
  [11:13] C: “We trauma bonded over the UTVs because we almost died a couple times...now I’m up here in New Jersey doing her things like getting a blowout in my hair...”

• On College Admissions:
  [09:56] B: “I think it’s pretty stupid. I think that basing things on numbers and test scores is pretty stupid. I don’t think it’s a measure of how much good you can do in the world...” [10:25] C: “Luckily for me, I'm pretty decent at wrestling, so they're not really looking at my test scores.”
  [10:54] B: “She’s pretty good.”

• On Their Fathers’ Friendship:
  [07:15] C: “They have lunch, they have dinner all the time. I’m sure Josh is always at the house. And, like, we're here in New Jersey together. Like, I would do it just like them.”

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Timestamps to Key Segments

• Book’s premise and intent: [00:49]–[03:26]
• On dogs and bipartisanship: [03:26]–[04:42]
• Teenagers on optimism and politics: [04:42]–[06:44]
• Social media, misinformation, and Gen Z: [07:38]–[09:05], [12:47]–[13:47]
• Personal anecdotes & culture exchange: [11:13]–[12:36]
• Audience Q&A and future projects: [14:11]–[17:06]
• Charity and impact: [16:00]–[16:35]

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Takeaways

• The Authors: Ellie and Lara embody the book's message, showcasing how different backgrounds can be reconciled through genuine friendship and shared experiences.
• The Book: Aimed at children, it provides an allegorical vehicle for teaching about working together—even if you’re different—manifested through the relatable lens of dogs in “dog congress.”
• The Broader Message: Early education and media literacy are critical for combatting polarization and misinformation, and cross-cultural friendships are possible and vital even in polarized times.

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For those who haven’t listened, this episode is a candid, hopeful, and entertaining discussion about the next generation’s approach to division, friendship, and optimism—with a little canine fun thrown in.

Transcript

[A]

All right, I think, I guess we're ready to start. Welcome, everybody. I'm Bradley Tusk. I am both the proud owner of this money losing bookstore and the even prouder uncle of one of our two authors, Ellie Gottheimer. And very excited that you guys could all join us tonight for the launch and premiere of Shmuel and Ozzy Go to Washington. I'm going to ask him some questions, then we're going to turn over to the audience. One thing to note, if you are going to ask a question is we will put this out as a podcast, so your voice will be on the podcast. If that bothers you, don't ask a question, but otherwise, please do. Yeah. You guys ready to start?

[B]

Thank you for having us.

[A]

Yeah. So whose idea was this?

[B]

I can take it.

[C]

So, yeah.

[B]

So Lara and I both kind of observed. I can give a little brief on the book, I think. So. The book is basically about two dogs. Shmoo, which is based off my dog Shmoo, and Ozz, which is based off Lara's dog, Ozzie. Shmoo is from the suburbs of New Jersey, like me and Ozzy's from a ranch in Oklahoma, like Lara and their dogs, their dads are in dog congress, and they basically are very different from each other and have to learn to work together to pass a bill to reopen the dog park after it shuts down. So the idea for the book, it kind of came from what Lara and I had both really observed, which is that it was really always, you know, the left and the right against each other. And kids these days are really just seeing this extremism and really seeing this incredible divide. And we kind of wanted to fuel this message across that, you know, even if you're so different from each other, like Lara and I both are, you know, you can work together. I had the idea to write a book, and I pitched it to Lara, but we both had kind of the same idea.

[A]

So Ellie pitches you this idea. Like, what was your reaction? Like, this is crazy. This is a great idea. How did you respond?

[C]

I was super excited. I was actually at a wrestling tournament. I was about to wrestle in a couple minutes, and my dad randomly asked me this question. It caught me so off guard. I was already nervous from the match, and I was just like, yeah, absolutely. And I've never done anything like this. I'm not a huge reader, if I'm being honest. And it was a really amazing experience. I was excited to learn something new,

[A]

and so did you guys. What were your preconceived notions about writing a book. And then how did actually doing it kind of changed from there?

[C]

I didn't know anything about writing a book.

[A]

Was it harder than you thought it was going to be easier?

[C]

Ellie helped a lot. Ellie. Ellie really did help a lot. She made it seem easy almost.

[B]

I mean, it's kind of crazy. You can kind of just pick up, I mean, not a pen and a pencil because you're not doing nappy. You know, you can just pick up a laptop and start typing and you just have something written. I mean, getting. I think the hardest steps are, you know, actually getting it to be able to be printed out, getting it illustrated. But in terms of writing the book, I would say it came pretty easily. I think we both really knew what we wanted to talk about. And yeah, I mean, it's also a children's book.

[A]

So when you pitched the idea to Lara, did you know it was going to be sort of dog focused or you were just like, we should write a book about bipartisanship?

[B]

I mean, at first the original idea was we should write a book about bipartisanship. And then we were trying to think, what's the best way to get it across to kids? Because we knew that was what we wanted our audience to be. And I think we kind of just decided, everyone loves dogs. If you don't love dogs, I'm sorry. But we really just, we were like, I love dogs. Lara loves dogs. That's common ground we found. And we're like, if we can find this common ground, hopefully other people can as well.

[A]

Right? So in the book, not only are the dogs the main characters, but when they go to Congress, I noticed Congress is also run by dogs. Do you think the US Government would be better if it were run by

[B]

dogs at this point? Probably.

[A]

So what's your sense? Like, who's the audience for this? When you say kids, is it like little kids, older kids? You know, you've got. I guess to me a challenge would be of this, that it's a more complicated concept than like a five year old might internalize. But then do you worry that like a 13 year old's not going to want to read a picture book?

[C]

Well, the ages of the book are 4 to 8, but really can be for anybody. Anybody can get a takeaway from this. I personally think no matter what age, it just sends a great message across.

[B]

And honestly, I think that's the beauty of the book is that obviously when what we wanted to do is target kids, so before they go on social media, before they start getting this preconceived notion that all our government does is fight and that two sides can't work together. We wanted them to be able to read this first. And what we tried to do is really take the politics out of it. So obviously what we're trying to get across is a bipartisanship message. But for these little kids, it's kind of just the idea that two people can be friends. Two people that are so incredibly different from each other can be friends, and they can still work together and do well, and. And it's important for them to work together.

[A]

So how do you guys feel as teenagers today in the world that we live in? Are you optimistic? Are you anxious? Does AI make you excited? Does it make you worried that you won't be able to find a job after college? Like, what's the mentality of each of you? And then I'm curious to see how much they're sort of similar or different based on your background.

[C]

I feel like social media builds up a lot of pressure on kids just because you see all these adults or kids that are doing very successful and.

[B]

I don't know how I would word that.

[A]

Well, actually, I'll ask you a question I think might capture it, which is, so in Australia and in England now, kids under the age of 16 are just not allowed to use social media. You like that idea?

[C]

I personally like the idea. I had social media at around 14, and I was begging my parents for it. And now I wish I would have waited just because. Just for that same reason, like you compare yourself to all these other people on social media, and kids really do believe everything they see on social media, and that's all they see. They don't get out in the real world to see what's actually happening. Like, their world is social media.

[B]

I mean, yeah, unfortunately, or I guess fortunately for me, I don't think AI could possibly replicate our government, especially right now. I do have a lot of hope

[A]

because it couldn't be this stupid.

[B]

There's a lot of character in the government, so give it that. No, but, you know, I think I do really have a lot of hope, and I think that's a big part of why I wrote this. I think that, you know, like, we're built. This is our 250th anniversary. You know, we're built on great democratic ideals, and I think we're going through a really hard and polarized time right now. But I do have a lot of faith and social media challenges that and AI challenges that. But I think at the End of

[A]

the day, like, so other than saying, thinking that you should say that you have faith, what actually gives you the faith?

[B]

I mean, this sounds a little cocky, but I think the fact that there's kids out there, like Lara and I, who truly do believe in. Believe in this cause and believe in the mission and believe that our government can work together, believe it's not entirely polarized that, you know, two people on opposite sides of the aisle, like our dads, can actually work together and get things done.

[A]

So what do you guys think it is about your dads? Because, yeah, like, I've known for a long time that your dad's, like, actually real friends, but it's still somewhat rare in Congress. Right. So, like, a lot of the adults here would remember that, like, back in the 80s, like, Tip O' Neill and Reagan would have a drink every week and people actually would work together. But I think Josh and Mark Williams relationship is pretty rare, unfortunately, these days. So given that you guys have sort of grown up around this, how would you do it differently? Like, how. How would you like it to work and how would you do it if you guys were in Congress?

[C]

Well, I just think they're a great example. I think I would do it just, like, how they're doing it. They're so different. They're. I mean, like you said, they're on the different, different side of the aisles, but they work out every single morning. They have lunch, they have dinner all the time. I'm sure Josh is always at the house. And, like, we're here in New Jersey together. Like, I would do it just like them. I think. I think they're setting a great example.

[A]

How many of your friends do you think are, like, engaged in politics and how do they feel? Do they share your optimism?

[B]

I think the difference is how many people are engaged in politics versus how many people are reading misinformation or disinformation and spreading it. I think that's what I saw a lot, at least during the last presidential election. I think a lot of people are engaged in the idea of, like, polarized politics and like, the idea that it's entertaining to watch people fight. And that's kind of what, at least I think Lara and I are trying to discourage. I think not a lot of people actually truly understand, you know, what's going. I don't think a lot of people are reading the news every day. You know, I run the political discussion club at my school, and. And that small, select group of people, we. I know we talk about politics, we read the news. But unfortunately, I think for this generation, that's just not something that's happening. People are getting their news from TikTok. People are getting their news from Instagram, and it's all this disinformation. So, you know, there are a select group of people, but unfortunately, it's just not.

[A]

So what would you do if you were one of those dogs in Congress about this?

[B]

I mean, I think it's as important as possible to spread the message, to spread the idea that people can still work together, even though they're different, and try to get it across as many ways as possible. That's why we wanted to write the children's book, to target people before, you know, they get on social media, before they get these polarized views or misinformation and start it early, start, like, media and literacy and this kind of education early.

[A]

So you grew up sort of in, you know, as a kid, of a politician since you were pretty little, Right. Does that make you want to go into politics? Or does that make you want. Is that, like, the last thing you want to do?

[C]

Well, I think what my dad and Josh do is absolutely amazing, but I feel. I feel called to, like, help the world in a different way. I do a bunch of mission work, and so I feel called to help more like that. I don't think. I don't think I'd be able to do politics. I love watching my dad, and I love all the opportunities that he gives me, but I just don't feel like that's my calling.

[A]

So you guys are both applying to college next year, right? Or probably year next this fall. What are you most excited about and, like, in terms of the whole process? Like, is there things that you think make sense? Did you like looking at schools, or do you just think the whole thing is silly? How do you think about it?

[B]

I mean, I'm really excited to be able to get to college and have a different experience and meet people that are interested in the same things as me. In terms of the college process, I think it's pretty stupid. I think that basing things on numbers and test scores is pretty stupid. I don't think it's a measure of how much good you can do in the world and how much you actually offer to a school. You know, I'm excited to apply. I'm excited to get to go to a school that I hopefully really love, but I think it's pretty stupid.

[C]

Well, luckily for me, I'm pretty decent at wrestling, so they're not really looking at my test scores. So I would say that's the plus side. And so, I mean, I have the colleges reaching out to me instead of me having to go. Go to throw. Go through the whole process of reaching out to them.

[A]

And she's being modest because what. What I learned earlier is that she's being recruited by the University of Iowa, which is far and away the best women's wrestling team in the country. So I think you're probably more than pretty decent is my guess.

[B]

She's pretty good.

[A]

And so how do you guys plan to sort of get this out there? I know you did some TV this morning. Obviously, we're doing this event, but, you know, ultimately, I know you want to sell some books, but the real point is that you want to be able to sort of get people to sort of feel the way that you guys feel. So what are your thoughts on how to spread the message?

[C]

Well, right now we're doing a video about our day, and we're just really showing how different we truly are, but how, like, great we get along. Like, she came down to Oklahoma. We had the best time ever, let me just tell you. We ate so much food, okay. We went to probably three different restaurants in the span of an hour, and we rode UTVs. She got experience, my life. We almost. We trauma bonded over the UTVs because we almost died a couple times. And. And so now I'm up here in New Jersey doing her things like getting a blowout in my hair and going out to dinner and stuff like that. And so we're. We're documenting that and also, like, kind of tying it into our book and just to really show how very different we are and how great we get along.

[A]

Would you say that your version of the blowout, Oklahoma, was going to the shooting range?

[B]

I mean, it was exciting. I had never really heard a gunshot in real life until then. She was very shocked about that. Everyone was kind of offended when I told them that. But it was. It was very fun going to the shooting range. It was a really cool experience. And I thought, you know, it was really cool to also introduce Lara to my life yesterday. Taught her some field hockey stuff. She threw me on the ground a few times, teaching me wrestling. So it was exciting. Yeah.

[A]

Did you take her to the mall?

[B]

I didn't take her to the mall.

[A]

Now, isn't that, like, a law in New Jersey?

[B]

I don't know. I can't drive on the highway, so.

[A]

So what do you guys each want? Forget about the bipartisanship first for a second. Like, you got a bunch of Adults here. Right. What do you want them to know about what it's like to be a teenager today? Like, what could they be doing differently or better to make your lives easier?

[C]

I would say try to keep your kids off of social media like as long as possible. Social media has a huge factor and teenagers and even like children. I see eight year olds with social media and I didn't even have a phone at 8 year old, at 8 years old. And it really, like I said, it sets unrealistic expectations for yourself and you're constantly comparing yourself to other people. And I just think it's not, I just don't think it's healthy.

[B]

So I think it's incredibly important too educate your children as early as possible and teach them real life ideals and, you know, teach them not to believe everything they see on social media. I think it's, it's pretty difficult to grow up in a world that's been really taken over by the media and by social media. Everything is really fake and filtered. So I think, just like Lara said, you can't really shield your kids from that because you know that's, it's inevitable, it's going to happen. But just teaching them how to use it correctly and also just educating them as much as possible I think is so important.

[A]

All right, I think that's my question. So I'm gonna turn over to you guys and they are willing to take the hardest questions you can think of. Doesn't matter what it is, shoot it at them. So, yeah, I will hand this. Who's got the first question? It's always hard to get the first person. Oh, back there. Just to repeat for the podcast listeners, will there be another Ozzy and did you say Schmoo or Shmuel? We are the Lower east sides as schmool as possible, but

[C]

I think it's definitely in the air. We've talked about it a lot more the past few days because we've gotten that question a lot. And it's just this whole experience is a lot of fun. It'd be fun to experience it again.

[B]

Yeah, we never really thought about it until we first got the question about a second book. And I was like, wow, people want to read another book from us. I don't even think people want to read the first book. No. But we talked about sharing a little bit, maybe doing it through our adventures in Oklahoma, our adventures in coming to

[C]

visit Ozzie and shooting guns and doing the country things and Ozzy going to go to the groomer.

[B]

She makes me sound like an Asshole, by the way.

[A]

All right, who else?

[B]

So in terms of writing, it really wasn't super difficult to write. We both kind of. It was really easy to kind of compromise on the idea of what we wanted to do and what we wanted to be about. Obviously, there's a few rounds of editing, but I think the hardest part was just figuring out the illustration because unfortunately, neither of us are artistically gifted whatsoever.

[C]

You would not be able to tell a dog from a house if we were the ones illustrating.

[B]

So that was probably the most difficult part. But the writing process probably took a month, and then everything else kind of just set out from there.

[A]

All right, who else?

[C]

We just really saw the way that kids and teenagers were seeing how politics is ran. And we wanted to show them a little bit of what we see through our dads. And we wanted to share that it is okay to be very different and work together. And we just. We wanted to get the right idea out before they got too far down the road, considering they're the next generation.

[B]

Yeah, I definitely want to say there was a specific event, but I think the culture in Washington, D.C. is getting increasingly polarized, and so this kind of felt like if there was a time to do it, the time was now.

[C]

So, yes, sir, they are going to project Night Night, and it's a organization that gives Night Night boxes to homeless children under 12. It gives a secured blanket, a stuffed animal, and a book. And so we really felt like that was fitting. We chose it over a pizookie at BJ's, which is a cookie in a skillet with ice cream. It's really good.

[B]

Yeah, it was very good. And we're really excited to be able to give the proceeds to kids who weren't as fortunate as us growing up and hopefully maybe get some of our books in the Night Night packages as well.

[A]

So, yeah, you should make that part of the deal. Anyone but Lyle, have another question?

[B]

So I took a creative writing class this year. Yeah, Some of my friends also took it, and we actually wrote a children's book, but all the illustrations and everything were AI and it was a pretty rushed process, but I definitely was excited to get to do it in kind of the right way this time. But it was definitely inspiring, and it was exciting to get the message across in a more formal way.

[A]

All right, anybody else? All right, well, look, thank you guys all for coming. You guys are going to sign books now. All right, anyone would like a signed copy? You can get it. Let's give a round of applause for Ellie and Lara. Firewall. Is recorded at my bookstore, PNT Netware, located at 180 Orchard street on the lower east side of Manhattan. We'd love to hear from you with questions, feedbacks or idea for a guest. Just email me at Bradleyirewall Media or find me on LinkedIn. And to keep up with what's on my mind and my latest writing, please follow my new [e-mail] thanks again for listening.