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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Welcome back to Firewall. I'm your host, Bradley Tusk. It's a Tuesday episode, so with us is our friend and producer, Hugo Lindgren. Hugo, how you doing?
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B
This is kind of our Memorial Day episode because this will still be up on Memorial Day. This. You know, we're not going to do
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A
another one before then.
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B
And we have a kind of a good, you know, like a lighter theme than usual, even though you brought.
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A
But this is going to run tomorrow.
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B
Yeah, it comes out tomorrow, but it'll be up.
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A
You think people save it from the special Memorial Day?
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B
Well, I don't think everyone listens to it the moment it comes up.
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A
So, yeah, I think.
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B
I think. I think people will be listening to it over the Memorial Day weekend. They'll be thinking, like, I wonder what's on Bradley's mind now that I'm sitting out by the pool, I think hot dogs think.
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A
When they're at the pool, they think, what's up with Bradley? Yeah, what's he oriented?
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B
I know he doesn't like pools, but
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A
I don't like to be immersed in water. I don't even take baths.
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B
But what about just putting your feet in or something?
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A
No, I mean, I could. You don't do it. You know, I think it's all part of my ocd. I think that there's a sensory thing with water for me. I mean, I like to get a shower, but we're happy about that. Yeah, but I don't like hot tubs. Really?
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B
Yeah. Hot tubs are gross. I think it's one of the those. I feel like those should fade out of the culture. Maybe they have. Okay, so we're gonna do your 10.
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A
You wrote. Why don't you explain the construct? Cause it's your idea.
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B
Well, I was just looking for something to break up the dirty truth of podcasting.
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A
What we talk about this week.
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B
You know, we get stuck in ruts, as everyone does, because you. The president is the president and the mayor is the mayor, and it gets a little boring hearing the same thing over and over again. So I said to Bradley, Bradley has this thing. We've talked about it many times on the show called Operation Sandwich, which he'll describe in a little more detail, which something he does with his friends. But I was like, well, what about writing about your 10 favorite sandwiches of all time? And here's the thing. There's a lot of people you might ask a question like that, and they'd be like, well, I will never, ever be able to remember something like that. But Bradley Actually, not only did he remember, but I knew he would. Like, I knew he would have. He would remember details.
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A
And they're not all from Operation Sandwich.
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B
No, I understand that. Right. But that was just sort of like why I got the sandwiches in the first place. So we're going to talk about.
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A
But the point is, it's not 10 sandwiches like a eater infatuation list. It's 10 sandwiches that ultimately, in retrospect, evoke something meaningful to me. It could be that it was a moment where I realized something. It was moment that had emotional significance. It was, you know, something in my life. What I tried to write was not like, I don't know if these are not. In fact, there are a few sandwiches weren't actually even that great, but it was 10 examples of sandwiches where, upon reflection, that moment mattered to me.
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B
Yeah.
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A
It's not the 10 best sandwiches I've ever had.
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B
Right, right. No, it's.
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A
It's.
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B
It's the 10 most important sandwich experiences.
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A
Yes.
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B
So here's a thing that we didn't talk about before, but you should read it from the bottom up. So. So you get to number one. You might want to start.
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A
It's not ranked in any way. Oh, it's not ranked in any way. It was just totally random. Oh.
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B
Because I thought the first one was in fact.
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A
Well, the first one makes sense as the first one.
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B
Okay, then don't. Then just read the way I think
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A
we go as is. Okay, fine. It's not chronological. It was just as I thought.
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B
No, I understand it's not chronological. I just thought it was like. But anyway, go ahead.
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A
Cool. So.
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B
Oh, I should mention one thing just for you listeners who like, are like, oh my God, he's talking about sandwiches. I better not listen to this episode. Which I think would be a mistake, by the way. No, no, just. Cause they're like, I listen to Bradley for politics and Tech and I don't care what he thinks about sandwiches.
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A
But if you're like that, I have some sandwich expertise.
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B
You do, you do. I'm just saying that our regular listeners might not.
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A
So I would say I have a different caveat here.
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B
No, I just wanted to say we're also going to. We're gonna address a reader note about Mayor Mamdani that we thought was really interesting. And we're gonna get to some other sort of polythemists, politics and tech stuff
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A
as well, a little. Are we?
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B
Yeah.
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A
Nothing else.
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B
I do.
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A
Yeah. Okay. All right. And let me just say this up front. I don't know if this is going to work or not. Right. You know, we wanted it. You guys had to do something different. I like the idea. We're going to try it out. It is possible this episode will totally suck. So don't feel bad about turning it off if you're not enjoying it, but feel bad but at the same, because I know people feel very guilty, but at the same time, it might be really good. Yeah. So, all right, so I guess number one is Operation Stand, which is creation. So I should probably give some context. Right? So please do. Well, I have a core group of friends from law school, and in 2002, my friend Matt Levine had his bachelor party at Jazz Fest in New Orleans. And I think maybe we were like kind of most people at that point had gotten married, so it felt like maybe we were kind of nearing the end of the, you know, bachelor party as a rationale to get together on a semi regular basis because people, you know, lived all over the country after law school and still do. And. Or maybe I just sort of, you know, I'm good at up with stupid ideas and then convincing people to try them. But you're not good at that. But either way, after the bachelor party, I had this thought that what if we pick a city, we make a list of 10 different sandwiches we'd want to eat, and then we eat them all in one day. And I didn't really know if anyone was going to go for it. But in retrospect, knowing this group, the fact that everyone was into it was not a giant surprise. And just to be clear, it's a very tough, grueling experience. It requires real commitment, real dedication. And I think the.
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B
It's like the Ironman of sandwich eating.
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A
Yeah, like the one where you have run like 100 miles or whatever. It is correct.
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B
Is there one of those?
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A
It's probably harder, though. And the mistake that people make when they do decide to participate is that they think, oh, I need to starve myself. It's the opposite. You have to stretch your stomach. So going into an Operation Sandwich, I learned to eat two lunches and two dinners every day for the week heading into it. Really? Yes, because that's what you need. In fact, the best from a capacity standpoint. Operation Sandwich, I think all of us have ever had was when we did the first Chicago Operation Sandwich. We did an Operation Sushi the night before. We went to five different places, and the rice really worked incredibly well as a stomach expander. So just. That's a pro tip.
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B
Okay. Have you brought this up with, like, competitive eating? People, I know you're a big. Competitive eating.
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A
No, no. My only experience with competitive eating firsthand was that in like 2005, there was a pizza eating contest in the western suburbs of Chicago, like DuPage county or something. And Bob competed, and we went out there, he and I.
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B
And were you like his coach? Like his cornerman?
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A
I was like his motivational coach. His corner man. Yeah.
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B
I was like.
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A
Instead of like a cut thing, I was dabbing a napkin on his corner of his mouth.
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B
Did you have a bucket in case he needed it?
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A
That's called the reversal of fortune. And it is not. You are disqualified. But not from Operation Sandwich, only from a competitive contest. Bob, by the way, eight. And Bob's a very, very big guy. For those of you who haven't ever seen him.
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B
Offensive lineman at Yale.
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A
Defensive lineman.
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B
Defensive.
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A
Oh, wow.
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B
That changes everything.
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A
And he's a great athlete, but he. He ate so fast, and I thought he was doing great. And then he was next to Sonia Thomas, known to most of you as to all of us as the black widow, who's like 5 to £100 from South Korea. And she just calmly. I'm like, she's gonna get crushed. He. Look at how much fat. It wasn't one on one. It was a group. But I was focused on them because they were next to each other. And when it was over, she ate twice as much as him. And do you know why?
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B
Why?
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A
She has historic jaw strength.
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B
Wow. So that's a big part of it.
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A
So, like, for parents out there, if you notice that your child might have really great draw strength, just in the way that people start training them at a young age to, you know, play in the NBA, whatever it is, start thinking about the ifoce, the International Federation of Competitive Eating now, so that your kid is ready to be a champion. But for Operation Sandwich, what I put on the first sandwich wasn't even a sandwich itself. It's that the fact that this group all said yes. And to me, you know, I've taught this before in the childhood. I had a not great. I've talked to podcasts. I had a not great childhood. And I had pretty lonely childhood. And so this notion that I had this group of friends from law school, and I have a similar group from college actually, but who were just, you know, happy to be part of something, and they were reliable and I could count on them. And. And that knowledge that there was this steadfast thing for me had an emotional significance that I think was very profound. So that's my first sandwich which is really the thing itself. The next one is my first Po Boy. I think I've mentioned on this podcast a bunch of times that I really love New Orleans. It's really one of my favorite cities in the world. I go once or twice a year. We gotta do a trip together. Yeah, we do, because we would love to. And I remember going for the first time. We were kids. I was maybe like 11, Marla was like 8, something like that. And we stayed at the Pontchartrain Hotel, which is not even around anymore. It's a nursing home now, I believe. And my dad got me a po' boy, an oyster po boy. And I don't even really remember where we got it from these days. I feel like I know my oyster Po Boys, but we'll see. But I just remember eating that sandwich and just having this sort of feeling like, this place works for me. This city feels right. The vibe, the culture, the food. And somehow in my mind, it got wrapped up in that one specific sandwich. And, you know, I've just been in love with New Orleans ever since. You know, as I said, I was there a few weeks ago with someone in the Operation Sandwich crowd for Jazz Fest. As a group, we go to New Orleans a lot. We've done an Operation Sandwich there a couple times. I've had birthday parties there. So that Po Boy was the beginning of what I, you know, has been a lifelong relationship with the city. The third was a grilled fish sandwich in Bellevue, Washington, which is where Microsoft is headquartered. And to my college roommate, Eric Montzwitz, this was back in, like, 1995. He was in Wharton, and he had a bunch of, you know, normal Wharton, like, offers at banks and consulting firms and instead decided to take a chance on a, you know, up and coming tech startup called Microsoft and did quite well. And I went to visit him, and it was the first trip that I ever did kind of as an adult, right? Like, I was graduated from college. It was with my money. I had very little of it. I was working at the Parks Department at the time, but I went out there and stayed with them. And eating that sandwich was sort of this feeling to me when I was looking back on it, of, oh, I'm an adult now. I can make my own choices. I can live my own life. I can do things the way that I want. And I think for me, look for better and for worse. I've always kind of been a misfit, right? And it works really well in some ways. It's harder in other ways. But I have luckily Been willing to sort of live by the principles that make sense to me. And I think that was best exemplified a couple of years later when I was graduating law school. I had a ton of student loans and had offers from, you know, all the big law firms to work there. And I just knew it wasn't for me. I knew I would hate it. I didn't want to go to a law firm. I didn't want to be a lawyer at all. I was happy. I got the education that was worthwhile. And it was hard because for my family, the notion that, you know, in some ways, me going and being an associate at a big law firm was, in their mind, the culmination of all the sacrifice. Right? My grandparents survived the Holocaust. My dad grows up for the first five years of his life in a refugee camp. They come to the US they open up a tiny sweater store in PT Knitwear, and then eventually the grandson goes to the University of Chicago for law school. And here we go. And instead, I go back to the parks department for $28,500 a year. And they were just staggered by that choice and couldn't understand it. And I remember even the law school going, the career office, and saying, I don't want to practice law. How can you help me? And the response was, we can't. Pretty much everyone from my class practiced law, at least initially, and went to law firms or clerked or things like that, and I didn't. And I took my own path. And money was never a big focus for me for a long time. But I did have this sort of feeling that if that ever became one, I would figure it out, and I'd probably be creative enough to do something decent if I wanted to. And luckily, that worked out. But that fish sandwich, in many ways felt like the beginning of that independence. So the fourth is when I was a spokesman for the Parks Department. One of the best parts of the job is that we would travel all over the city. There's over 2,000 parks and playgrounds and properties in New York City. Henry Stern, who was my boss and the Parks Commissioner, loved attention more than anything in the world. We basically had some sort of event. A groundbreaking, a ribbon cutting, a celebration, something, whatever I could come up with. And I had total carte blanche, basically just a couple of crazy shit I could. And as a result, I really hit the five boroughs in an incredibly comprehensive way, because every neighborhood has parks, every neighborhood has playgrounds, and every neighborhood has sandwiches, and every neighbor has sandwiches. So Malcolm Pinkney was the parks photographer at the Time he was there for a very long time. And he and I would drive out to whatever the event was and then on the way back we would do a little research. It was Internet was just barely nascent, but. And big. Oh, you know, here's this amazing, you know, Korean fried chicken sandwich in Jackson Heights or whatever it is. But one of our standbys was Mangenero Hero Boy, did you ever go to that place?
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B
Yep.
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A
So it was on like 38th and 9th. I'm almost certain it no longer exists. And we would get a sausage and peppers and I rather get sausage and peppers and a 20 ounce Coke. And it was the most delicious sandwich. But what it meant to me in retrospect is it just symbolized kind of how much I loved my job, how much I loved New York City government, how much I love New York City. And it really did start this sort of lifelong bond where I have spent a lot of my life and career trying to find ways big and small to make New York City better, to contribute, to make it a great place to live. Sometimes in government, sometimes in business, sometimes in philanthropy, sometimes in culture, but. But I have consistently focused on that for the rest of my life. And it is incredibly meaningful to me. And to have this sense of place is critical. And it's not just to be here, but to really care about it and try to contribute to it and be part of it.
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B
Can I give you the update on Mangeneros? There was a feud between the family. They split into two places and they are now both closed. 2021.
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A
Yeah, that was what I thought because I've gone by like, you know, in an Uber or whatever on 9th Avenue, walk by.
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B
And I was there for a long time.
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A
But it was delicious. Yep. So number five got married in 2021. And my friend Garrett, law school friend, operation, sandwich stalwart, and I, a couple days before, Garrett lived in Texas. And I got there a couple days early and we went out to Lockhart, Texas. You been in Lockhart?
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B
Nope.
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A
So it's a town maybe 45 minutes or so outside of Austin, and it's a barbecue mecca. Three incredible different barbecue place. And then if you go about another 20 minutes in Luling, there's another one, but this place called Kreuz's. And it's like as bare bones as you get. Like you just get. You order meat by the pound and you get sides of bread and pickles and onions and a few other things and they just slap it on a piece of butcher paper and that's it. But we made these brisket sandwiches. And the reason why barbecue doesn't work in New York City, it's always funny to me. People like, oh, this is really good. Like, no, it's not. Because for barbecue to taste really good, it has to be truly smoked, which means you need a pit with a 24 hour a day fire, and you need enough space to have a really big smokehouse. And A, that kind of space typically doesn't exist in New York City. And B, even if it did, you can't have a giant bonfire because it burned the fucking city down. So, you know, there are various times you're like, oh, this is so good. And it's like, no, this is boiled meat. But crisis is about as legit as it gets. And that weekend, it felt so filled with. I don't know how your wedding was, because we didn't know each other back then, but it just felt so filled with love from family, from friends. And, you know, the marriage didn't last, as people on this podcast listeners know. But, you know, when Abby got sick and then when Harper and I divorced, you know, many of those same people were really just still right there for us, for me, for the kids. And they were loving and kind and caring. And, you know, that brisket sandwich just reminds me of all of it, you know, the good parts, the hard parts, but really that love and friendship and a lot of it continues to this day. So number six in, I think it was around 2018, I spent a week in Tel Aviv and did a podcast series with Michael Eisenberg, who's a friend and a venture capitalist in Israel, probably the. The top venture capitals in Israel. And I was walking down Roth Trial, which is kind of the main thoroughfare in Tel Aviv, and I just stopped in at a random place to get a falafel. I have no idea what it was called. And the sandwich itself was outstanding. Just everything was so fresh. The pita, the falafel, the vegetables. But there was this moment of pride that here I was in another country, I'm hosting a podcast series with Israel's top venture capitalists, and people really seemed to want to know what we thought, right? And like, that was amazing to me that, like, not only had I done enough good things, interesting things, meaningful things in the US that people were interested in what to say, but now people in another country, obviously there's a connection between the US and Israel and Jews and both. So it's not like, you know, totally random, like, you know, Algeria or something, but like, still, that felt good. And also the notion that, you know, I'd kind of grown up working in politics and then eventually kind of, you know, added in venture and tech and got to the point where, you know, I felt like I had a legitimate role in that sector and in that industry. I think I still do. And that was just a really nice realization. Number seven was when I. When I was deputy governor of Illinois, the governor, as listeners know, was Rod Blagojevich. And Rod would never, ever come to the office. He truly believed that the job of running for office and the job of holding office were two different jobs and that his job was to run for office. But occasionally, you know, you either had to try to engage him on a governing matter, or he would be worked up about something. So Rod was always convinced that everyone was out to get him. And he had a million conspiracy theories. And, you know, the crazy thing is, he was right. They were out to get him, but his conspiracy theories were never the right ones. So it was the worst of all worlds. We were getting rat constantly, and yet, at the same time, we were always chasing down the wrong ones. But he lived in a neighborhood called Sunnyside, and I don't know if he still lives there or not, but he did then. And, you know, there would just come points on the day where it's like, I can't fucking. I'm gonna lose my mind. I can't take this. And I would just stand and go, something to eat. And on Lawrence Avenue, which was around the corner from where he lived, there was this shawarma place. And Chicago's got a really good shawarma scene as everybody else. Shawarma scene.
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B
Nice.
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A
Who doesn't? And, you know, it was just like, one moment of sanity in these days where you literally, you know, that scene as you lander Will Ferrell's like, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
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B
Right?
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A
That's what it was like every day in that job. And I just remember there, sitting there, like, eating my shawarma, feeling bad for myself. And then I finally realized that, like, part of my job was to absorb Rod's craziness.
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B
So that not part of your job that's issued?
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A
Well, it was part of it. It was not to run the state, but part of it was to let all the other people who were running the different agencies be as free from all the insanity as possible so they could do their jobs. And that's why I was working, like, literally 80, 90 hours a week, was because I had to have the job of dealing with Rob. And I Had the job of running the state, but part of that job was to sort of take the hits and deal with this guy so that they could do their job without interference. And it was not my favorite. It was my least favorite part of the job. But, you know, we got a lot of really big things done. First state to do universal healthcare for kids. First state to do universal preschool for all three and four year olds. First state to tear down every toll booth and just do open road tolling. And so, you know, 20 years before most places did it. First state to import prescription drugs in Europe and Canada, lots of stuff. And, you know, that was possible in part because we had some really, really good people working there. And because of, you know, my role, unfortunately, of our spending a lot of time dealing with Rod, they were free to help, you know, develop all this stuff. And, you know, the result was meaningful. You know, the process was awful. Number eight, there was this. Did you spend much time, like in Miami beach as a kid? No. You're not a Jewish kid?
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B
I've been down there a bunch of times.
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A
This is the Jewish, non Jewish divide. Right. But my grandparents, you know, we talk about or something before about working at a law firm is the culmination American dream. You know, for my grandparents, specifically my grandfather, it was a Cadillac and a condo on Miami Beach. Like, that was it. Like, if you had that, you've made it. And he did. And there was this incredible, I mean, giant restaurant in North Miami beach called the Rascal Wolfie Cohen's Rascal House. And it was just Rascal House, Rascal house, Giant Jewish deli. And they would have these, like, they'd bring out these big bread baskets. My grandmother would, like, bring an extra big purse and dump the whole bread basket in. And, you know, they had these great, A lot of like, appetizing, like, you know, I love, like, they pickled lox, but they also had great pastrami and corned beef sandwiches. And I really love going there with them because it just somehow like being at this place eating this giant sandwich, the abundance of it, after literally all these years of starving, you know, with his Cadillac outside and the condo on the beach, you know, 15 minutes away, it just really. I could feel his pride and it meant a lot. And look, we did clash later in life because he didn't support a lot of choices I made from the, you know, jobs that I took early in my career to, you know, my marriage and things like that. But I do think that if he saw me today, he would be proud and not look he was very, very focused on money. I remember one time when I was deputy governor. Keep in mind, I've got 60,000 employees, our budget's, I don't know, $70 billion. I'm in charge of all of it. And he calls me and he said, sam Hoin is a friend of his grandson, is now a vice president at Morgan Stanley. It's good for whatever, you know, Josh or whatever the guy's name was. He goes, and maybe one day you'll be a success, too, motherfucker. But what's interesting, what I like to think, and this might not be true, but I like to think, yes, he would be proud of how much money I have made. Sure, full stop. Who would have thought, right? But he was a very, very generous person. And I think if he saw the kind of philanthropy we do, the ways we help people, the impact that we have big and small, I think you would have been proud of it. So number nine. So the second operation Sandwich, you know, we went to this tortoise place in Hell's Kitchen, and it wasn't particularly good, but most people thought the notion of Joining us for 10 sandwiches was patently insane. But we allowed for celebrity guest appearances. So, you know, Hugo could come to sandwich number six or whatever it was. And it wasn't like number 10. It was like late, like seven or eight. And for some reason, I just basically gave people the schedule, and then I just said, let's just email. I don't even have text or anything about that, or email me or whatever it was, and I'll just tell you where we are. Because he couldn't quite predict the timing. And for some reason, just like 30 people, 40 people showed up at this tortoise place. It was like, very surpri. I don't know how it all just sort of weirdly happened that way. And then in my sort of the way I'm apt to do, so everyone call over to my place after, and we had this big fucking party in our apartment. And there were people there from college, from law school, from the Parks Department, the Schumer World, the Bloomberg world. And I remember just sort of sitting there and thinking about kind of all these people who I genuinely liked and cared about and I knew cared about me and thinking about my childhood and, you know, how lonely it was, and just literally thinking, you know, how did I get here? And the last one is, I've always tried to be really interested in whatever my kids are interested in. To me, it's one thing if you talked about what you're interested in, but it kind of goes in and out. But if you can actually bother to learn what they're interested in, talk about that, it goes a lot further. Abby's a little tricky because she likes a lot of things. I remember when she was little, we would go to the Thanksgiving Day parade, and no matter what talent kind of thing, it could be a marching band, it could be someone doing whatever it was. I want to do that. But now I'd say for us, we go to music together, we go to museums and see art together. And that's kind of our two things. But Lyle is different. He's very mono focused. So if he's into Star wars or Legos or Marvel, that's his thing. Which in some ways was easy, because then I just had to learn about one thing. And a couple years ago, he got really into golf, and he still plays golf. He's on the golf team at school. But he was watching it a lot. He doesn't really watch that much anymore. And we went to the Olympics in Paris in 2024. I remember going there. I was nervous because he was 15. And Lyle and I have been to about a dozen different baseball stadiums around the country, and then probably another dozen or so NBA and NFL places, too, and stadiums and arenas. And that year for Memorial Day, we went to Pittsburgh, which is known to be one of the best baseball stadiums in the country. And we're in the Uber on the way to LaGuardia. And I said, Lyle, let's look at the MLB list and see what we're gonna do next. And he goes, this is your thing, dad. And I was like. And then he was a total dick the entire weekend. Like, didn't wanna go to anything. And he left the game in the second. Our hotel was, like, two blocks from the stadium. He, like, left the game in the second inning. I just ended up, like, doing shit in Pittsburgh with myself. Charlie showed up for the game. He's from Pittsburgh. And. And I remember thinking, like, shit, this Olympics trip is, like, really, you know, we really did it right. You know, we flew first class. We stayed at, like, a big suite at Park Hyatt. We did incredible tickets for everything. It was a very expensive trip. Fine. But, like, it's gonna suck if he's an asshole all the time. And we get there, and he'd never been to Paris before. And thank God he. It wasn't just that the Olympics were amazing. You know, Paris, especially if you go at the right time and you haven't been there before, is a magical place. And. And he, to his great credit, just let himself be enveloped by that magic of Paris. So he was like, wow. And we had the best time. And towards the end, but we didn't have tickets to golf. We had tickets to like track and ping pong and swimming and boxing and all this stuff. But my friend Anish was running LVMH for the Americas at the time, and he said, oh, we've got like a special pavilion thing. Why don't you go over there and have lunch or whatever, okay. And there's like someone assigned there to like, show us around and take care of us. And as we're eating lunch with them, they overheard Lyle say that he really wanted to go to golf. It was gonna be our last day there. And we had tickets for track, but we'd already been to track. And then they texted me that night and said, hey, we got your tickets to golf. And it was like, for their again, like this amazing, like, VIP thing, whatever. And so we gave away, actually giveaway track tickets was tough because we didn't know anyone in Paris. So we're at dinner that night at this great Chinese restaurant, and I said to the waitress, do you want our tickets? It's weird, but like, otherwise I'll just go unused. She's like, okay. And then I had to be like, I have to transfer them to you electronically. Can I have your number or email, whatever. It was embarrassing. Cause I was like, I'm not gotta get you the tickets. But we go to the golf and we're in this sort of like pavilion, whatever, and you can kind of watch a third hole perfectly. And the weather was amazing. And we're in these like French baguettes, you know, ham and cheese sandwiches. And just, I remember just thinking, like, how incredibly lucky I was to be able to be there with my son doing something that was really unique, that he really loved. And I just. I remember feeling very grateful for it. So, you know, those are 10 sandwiches or 10 experiences.
- [29:30]
B
10 sandwich experiences.
- [29:31]
A
And, you know, my guess is that as a homework exercise for all of you listeners out there. Because who doesn't love homework? As you're walking on the beach this Memorial Day or grilling or whatever you might be doing, you know, might be fun to think about, like, what are those for you? And it might not be sandwiches, but I think that if you do that, you'll enjoy it because writing this and talking about it made me feel really good.
- [29:52]
B
Great. Thanks, Bradley. Now we're going back to our regularly scheduled program, Some politics.
- [29:59]
A
Yeah, sure.
- [30:00]
B
So we got an interesting note from a listener named David Kurdell about Mayor Madani. So I'm just going to read it because he sort of makes a little argument that, that I think it's good to, to understand the breadth of. So as I listen to your podcast and read your stuff, there's a disconnect between your broad conclusions and the details you present and sometimes omit. The subject line is Madani, yeah, you say is a really nice guy, but he's a non stop spreader of hate messages against Israel and the beliefs many of many Jews. And he seems to be allied with violent people against Jews. And his wife is particularly hateful and bigoted. Nice guys don't marry bigots. You say he's doing a great job, but then note how he has cost New York City thousands of high paying jobs and has done a terrible job on our education budget and education as a whole. You say he's appointed great people like Tish, the NYPD commissioner, but neglect to mention the huge number of awful appointees. And you note his pandering to his base cost the lives of 19 New Yorkers during the winter freeze. He's also fanned the flames of anti Semitism and anti Bismillah and sentiments. How is that doing a great job? How is that a nice guy? Your broad conclusions don't match your details. Like somehow you're doing your best not to conclude what the facts say.
- [31:11]
A
Yeah, I think that's. First of all, thank you, David, for writing that in. And we love it when listeners write in and when it makes sense. And Dave, thank you all today for letting us read this and say your name on the air. I think some of that is right, some of that is wrong. And by the way, some of it may also be this is always a challenge, which is you're communicating what you think and I'm giving me meaning, you meaning me and giving my analysis of things. And then people hear what they hear and obviously they're not, you know, so there's a little bit of disconnect which some of that might be on David, some of that might be on me. So I'll try to take this in a few parts. So one, is he a nice guy? He unquestionably comes off when you interact with him as a nice guy. That's not debatable. Is he a good person? I don't know. And that's a very fair question. I still don't think that any mayor's view or any governor's view for that matter, any non federal officials view of Israel makes a fucking difference. There's no member of the Knesset that has ever said, oh, before I take this critical vote, what is the mayor of New York City or Los Angeles or Chicago or the governor of Pennsylvania, whatever, no one gives a fuck. So that doesn't matter. So then the question becomes, is Mondaami a good mayor for New York Jews and is he a mayor for all New Yorkers? So I looked this up and he did say in his inauguration, a version of. And every mayor throughout history said, I want to be a mayor for all New Yorkers. And he had a version of that. So has he been. It's a fair question. His wife is unquestionably a bigot. She genuinely, from everything that you can see from her, hates Jews. I don't know that she likes Hitler or anything like that. But, you know, the notion of Jews not existing seems very exciting to her and intriguing. So it would be really hard to not look at her and think that she is a rabid anti Semite. So is Mondawmi therefore evil for marrying her? Maybe, I'm not sure.
- [33:11]
B
Well, evil might be stretching it, but it does reflect on it.
- [33:15]
A
It does. And I would say the other thing is, while there have been examples of. There was one example of a Jew being attacked or synagogue or something like that. Maudami was good about that. He does fan the flames. He truly. Even though I don't think a mayor's view on Israel matters, it's not like once he became mayor, he then said, I'm gonna focus on the city of New York. He does continue to. And so I don't think he supports Israel's right to exist. Does he hate Jews per se? I don't know. He might. I'm not sure. He is certainly smart enough to find Jews to be around to validate him because he does understand that, you know, that's important for him. But everyone has their sort of token minority that they keep around to make it seem like they're not what they really are. So we'll see. But I think that my hope that he would focus on New York and being a mayor for all New Yorkers is not really quite proving true. In terms of his appointments, I don't think I've ever said that they're all great. I have said that I believe that the most important job of a mayor is operational. It is police, it is sanitation, it is transportation. And I think so far, by and large, those appointments, especially Jesse Tisch, have been pretty effective. And so, look, there's two ways to Tell that one would be statistics that could be the crime rate, which is very, very low right now. But there's also, although sometimes the books are cooked, but you know, pothole filling and time it takes to get across town. And you know, there are operational statistics that you can use to somewhat objectively measure how those agencies and how those commissioners are doing. He doesn't even have, unless it changed over the last day OR 2, an EDC Economic Development Corporation, or maybe they'll change it to EDJ Economic Justice Corporation, EJC. I don't know. Commissioner, they have been abysmal on jobs. Julie Hsu, who's the deputy mayor for Economic justice, is an extremely nice person. I have not seen one single example of job creation. As we discussed last week on the podcast, he may have driven away 15,000 jobs from Citadel. If Ken Griffin does decide to put his headquarters in Miami instead of New York, it sounds like it's still an open question. And I don't think they have any clue whatsoever of how to deal with the business community. They don't know anybody. I mean, Julie's again, very, very lovely, but was the labor secretary for Joe Biden and wanted to take everyone in the sharing economy and make them full time employees. That was her main mission as labor secretary. So it is the antithesis of business. And again, that gets to the broader disconnect that the left seems to have where they want endless money to spend on different government programs, but then they also want to punish the people who pay those taxes, which causes them to leave or not create companies and jobs here, which then reduces the amount of money available to spend on people who need it. So I think that's been a total failure so far. One of the big questions for me has always been will he pick what's good for New York over what's good for his kind of political expediency? I think Jesse Tisch in some ways reflects that in that I'm sure that there are a lot of people around him who truly believe in defunding the police, truly believe that every criminal is actually the victim of institutional discrimination in some way and very much don't want her there and are doing whatever they can to try to get her to resign. But I also think, so you could argue that in keeping her, he did do the right thing. On the flip side, I think he's also smart enough to know that the best way for him to lose reelection is that the city feels dangerous and out of control. So that might have been political expediency. It's not sure, but either way, it landed in the right place. As David notes, certainly his choice to not break up homeless encampments during the coldest winter in 45 years led to the death of 19 people. That blood is on his hands. And by the way, if I were the. If again, they were homeless, I'm not sure what there are in terms of family members, but if I were them, I would launch a class action suit against the City of New York and say that Zoro Mondami directly is responsible for this. And, you know, I think they'd have a case more recently and I hope we can work this out. But as listeners know, I worked with City hall last year to try to get age verification to rent E bikes for Citi Bike, because you have. I saw this on my own kid. Tons of teenagers lying about their age. The age verification was basically non existent. And then racing these e bikes at 20 miles an hour all over the city. It's been lowered a bit since then. No helmets, which is just going to cause both them to get hurt or die. And other people too. E bike accidents are already the number two cause of admissions to emergency rooms in New York City. And without ever having even seen the technology, Mondami rejected it, saying that facial recognition is racist. It's only, by the way, having seen the technology, one part of it, and that is abhorrent to basically almost guarantee the death of people because there's some ideological coffee shop view of something that they never even bothered to look at. It is shameful. And by the way, that is transportation and operational. The DOT worked on this and was putting it together and it was his deputy mayor. I think her name is Julie Kirsten, so I'm not particularly impressed with her at the moment. But maybe, you know, supposedly we're going to all talk about this and see, so maybe it's going to fix it. So I would say that feels like, can I say something?
- [39:00]
B
And then it got to a pretty negative place over the course of your answering the question.
- [39:05]
A
Yeah.
- [39:05]
B
And yet would you say you're still giving him the benefit of the doubt or.
- [39:09]
A
I am, but it's getting less right now. Here's the thing. I'm trying to my head separate out my personal anger about the E bike thing from my overall trying to be objective analysis.
- [39:23]
B
And the E bike thing matters more to you than like the point about his wife being a bigot or that.
- [39:28]
A
Well, it just gets to the point of his wife's tweets. If they are leading to actual violence against New York City Jews. That's a problem. If it is just sort of making David upset, that's not really a problem. The E bike thing I know will lead to unnecessary accidents and possibly death. So from a tangible standpoint, that's probably significantly worse. My thought was to at the end of June when he'll been his first six months, do a real write up a real report card for him and try to go through a dozen or so different topics and really analyze it thoughtfully. So I still plan to do that. So it'll be in around a month or so. But David, hopefully that answers your question. And either way, thank you.
- [40:14]
B
Thanks for writing. So okay, I have one more kind of substantive question then I want to talk about the Knicks for a second. I was reading David David Ben Thompson's column this morning and he was talking about the sort of data center opposition. He cited a case in Texas where where there's sort of growing opposition to building of them. So he said the thing tech could do, and this is where I think the answer lies, is simply start paying people off directly. Data center builders and operators already stress the economic benefits to local municipalities, of course, and Meta to its credit actually does quite a bit more than that, including workforce training. At the end of the day, however, I don't think any of this is concrete enough to offset people's anxiety about AI which makes up the receptive soil in which the seed of misinformation lands and takes root. The misinformation about data center typically, and I would add all of these benefits assume a level of trust in local governments in terms of benefits trickling down to citizens that is rapidly eroding. Instead, the most obvious solution is the most crass simply start giving people money.
- [41:17]
A
Yeah, I mean there's a version of that, so I guess there's a few. Did he actually. So here's what at least and I haven't done the math and it's probably sounds hard, but I guess I could which is so here's what we know. People across the board, regular people and politicians do not believe that regular consumers and people who are just getting their electricity through the grid should be forced to shoulder the cost of the energy consumption of data centers. There's been various bills that would either impose moratoriums or more likely just saying look, you got to cover your energy needs. That could mean you use more energy efficient compute. That could mean you provide your own on site sources of power. But you can't just expect everyone else to subsidize you. And so what I have Sort of assumed is that as rich as the AI hyperscalers are, they are not rich enough to pay for the differential in everyone's energy bills. Right. And that's why it makes sense for them to just find ways to be more efficient. So if, if everyone is, you know, cost of their electric bill is going up $70 a month and they get $20 a month, I don't think that's going to really solve the problem Ben's talking about because people are still losing 50 bucks a month. There's a psychological thing. If you didn't tie it to that, but just sent everyone a check, that sort of has some benefit, but it doesn't really solve the problem. That's one, two would be, I think what Ben's probably getting towards, and I'll look at his column, but is the negative externalities of AI in terms of, of data centers and their use of energy and their use of water, but also the actual and anticipated and feared job loss that comes from AI, as well as the potential catastrophic risk, whether that's the ease of assembling a deadly bioweapon or of a unmanned drone attack that wasn't ordered by a human being or anything else like that. On the jobs issue, I think we touched before, there's at least a study that I saw in Israel that, that have the idea of a, which is kind of what Ben's talking about, a negative income tax. So you take the incremental profit that companies make through the reduction of headcount because of AI, tax that incremental profit, and then redistribute it to the laid off workers or people in general, whatever it is, and at least for Israel, according to the math of this one white paper called Mosaic, the math works that the more that people get laid off, the more profits go up, the more those taxes then cover the needs of those people. That may not work at scale in the United States, I don't know. And maybe the math isn't even right for Israel, I'm not sure. But that's another way to do it. And look, this is why I've always been an Andrew Yang fan. Because way back in 2014 and whenever his book came out, it was about the notion of automation, which was effectively the precursor of AI would cause mass layoffs and displacement. And the only way to ensure that people could still live functional lives is through universal basic income. I have embraced UBI even more than for that, but because having run government budgets, I know that they are so wasteful and ineffective that if you truly wanted to help people, you'd be far better off with direct wealth transfers than the current system of taxation or appropriation. But either way. So, yeah, I mean, I think that Ben's basic precept is right. I don't know if he did the math specifically to map out whether or not the ad companies could specifically make up the cost of the energy increases. And I don't know that that's actually feasible.
- [45:05]
B
Knicks are going to face Cleveland.
- [45:06]
A
Yeah. Game one tomorrow night, tonight for those listening. Yeah.
- [45:09]
B
And you feel. What about that?
- [45:11]
A
Excited. Very, very excited.
- [45:13]
B
But you like Cleveland. You feel like that's like a.
- [45:15]
A
As a matchup. I, you know, I think it's kind of be careful what you wish for. I got a bunch of text last night from people saying like hooray, Cleveland one. And I was rooting for Cleveland. But I think that Detroit felt like a tougher matchup because they crushed us in every game this year and we barely got past him in the playoffs last year. However, Detroit this year barely squawk by, squeaked by Orlando and lost to Cleveland and Jalen Duran, who was incredible during the regular season was a non entity in the playoffs and Cade was just exhausted.
- [45:43]
B
Yeah.
- [45:43]
A
So maybe the answer is Detroit would have been the better matchup. I don't know. Look, when Philly beat Boston, everyone was cheering and I was wrongly said, you know, let's be careful we wish for because Philly's really hot. They've got Embiid and Paul George and Edge, Coleman, Maxi all, all playing really well. That was always their sort of vision and now they have it. Maybe that's harder than a Tatum. That's not 100% and whatever else. And then it turned out to be incredibly easy. Knicks just wipe the floor with them. So I don't know. I saw this morning the Athletic that all four riders pick Knicks and six and I saw that on the sports betting markets. It's like Knicks 2 plus 240 or you know, it's Cleveland plus you get 240 for $100 bet if you take Cleveland. I don't bet, but I do. I mentioned the odds. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, here's what I'm optimistic about. What I'm optimistic about is obviously we're playing incredibly well. Obviously we're really well rested. I do worry about rust a little bit. We now have home court advantage which would not have had against Detroit and that's a big, you know, especially msg. That is a big advantage and I think so going to Cleveland not quite as easy as going to Philly, but I think some Knicks fans will travel to Cleveland as well. And I have no faith in James Harden. He always, always disappears in the big games. Although he was good last night, so that's good. And our guys have been playing great. And hopefully Anunobi is back and doesn't re injure his hamstring. On the flip side, this is Donovan Mitchell's first conference finals ever. But he's a great player. Right. And always fear him. Evan Mobley, who I think had a down season in the regular season, was really good in this series and he is the reigning defensive player of the year. I thought Jared Allen looked really good last night. Harden can score 30. Often does. So can Atkinson's a good coach. Do I think we'll win? I can't tell if I'd think it or if I just am so excited about it. But yeah, if I did gamble, I would bet on the Knicks. And can you imagine if the spurs get past Oklahoma City, how the whole country would be a Knicks Wemby Finals? Like that's going to be if we got to that. Amazing. You know, Oklahoma City's favorite over San Antonio. But San Antonio I think beat them three out of four in the regular season. So totally possible they could win. So who knows. But I'm excited at the very least. Do you have of a prediction?
- [48:16]
B
I think Nick's in four.
- [48:17]
A
Four. Okay. I mean, I would love that. And if they play the way they've been playing, that's maybe that's possible. But Cleveland was a lot better than Philly.
- [48:26]
B
Yeah.
- [48:26]
A
And it did take a six to beat Atlanta. And once we got rolling, we crushed Atlanta, but we were down two games to one.
- [48:33]
B
Yeah. Do you have a recommendation?
- [48:34]
A
I do. Novel Code five by a woman, Alona Banister. It is about all. The premise is someone. They're on the tube tracks in London, the tube station in London, kind of in the suburbs. And she focuses on five different people, says one of them will die at the end of this book. It's not a mystery. She then goes back into the lives of all these people and some of the ways that they intertwine, some ways that they don't. And then it does culminate with someone dying. And it was just. It's funny, you thought it'd be sort of like some kind of thriller or murder. It's none of that. It's not a murder at all, actually. I don't think give anything away by that. It is just really kind of a beautiful look and she has this narrative device that I thought worked really well, which is, you know, she kind of tells you at various points, like not just what has happened to them, what is happening to them, but what will happen to them in a way that just feels like you and her are having a conversation. It doesn't. It. It somehow is good writing, even though she's just telling you and not showing you. And yet, you know, an easy book. Not.
- [49:43]
B
How did you get to that? Whose recommendation do you read that on?
- [49:46]
A
I think I just saw a book review for it and thought it was really good also. And this is a much more random one, but I went to a cause I don't usually go to any sort of theater type performance, but at the Faina Hotel in Miami, there's like a show. It's kind of like Cirque du Soleil kind of cabaret. There's like circus acts, there's music. It's kind of sexy. It was really fun. I really enjoyed it. And I normally don't like that stuff, so if you happen to be in Miami, it's worth checking out.
- [50:17]
B
Great. Thanks, Brad.
- [50:20]
A
Firewalls recorded at my bookstore, PNT Netware, located at 180 Orchard street on the lower east side of Manhattan. We'd love to hear from you with questions, feedbacks or idea for a guest. Just email me at Bradley at Firewall Media or find me on LinkedIn. And to keep up with what's on my mind and my latest writing, please follow my new substack at bradleytus substac. Com. Thanks again for listening.