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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Welcome back to Firewall. I am your host, Bradley Tusk. We were recording this live at PNT Netwear in New York City, home of the NBA champion New York Knicks.
- [00:19]
B
Bradley, are you trying to go slow? Are you trying to go slow?
- [00:21]
A
I'm so. Yeah, you're so in the face myself. Yeah, I'm so excited. A little tired, too, but I'm excited. Excited. Hugo, how you doing?
- [00:28]
B
Good. You know, I want to. I want to admit to listeners. So what. What night was it? Was it Wednesday night when they. When they won the. When they won Game four?
- [00:34]
A
Yeah.
- [00:35]
B
So Bradley texts me, it's like midnight, after midnight. He wants to go come into the studio and do an emergency podcast. Yeah, you were confused. Well, I didn't refuse.
- [00:43]
A
I actually just wanted to do it remote.
- [00:45]
B
I didn't want to gently. I. I gently demurred. I didn't refuse. But. And then. And then we heard from a listener who was upset that we hadn't done one.
- [00:52]
A
She was right.
- [00:52]
B
But anyway, we're saving it all up for today because now that was just an amazing comeback. But now the kn. So there we go. Yeah. So sorry, listeners, if you. If you don't like us talking about sports, you're out of luck.
- [01:05]
A
Where would you say you stand on the elation scale compared to about, you know, midnight Saturday?
- [01:11]
B
You know, I have to say it stayed constant. Like, I got almost like, not sober exactly, but as it was. As they were actually winning, I got sort of more reflective. Like, I watched kind of quietly and I really.
- [01:22]
A
And.
- [01:22]
B
But in a really good way. Like, the. The kind of. It was just so weird. Not weird how well Brunson played and so heroic.
- [01:30]
A
It was like I watched actually the first half. We'll talk about the World Cup a little later in the Uber. From the World cup to.
- [01:38]
B
So you didn't get out of there in time. We'll have to talk about. No, not really.
- [01:40]
A
It didn't quite. And then second half with Jamie and my girlfriend Issa and Jamie's daughter Eleanor at Jamie's house, and, you know, the Knicks did their typical. Kind of came back in the middle of the fourth quarter.
- [01:54]
B
I don't think the Knicks came back. Jalen Brunson, I mean, did there one or two other shots, but basically it was the whole team.
- [02:01]
A
Right? Basically, like a minute or two to go. Jamie and I are looking like, oh, my God, yeah, they're gonna win. And there was. I had that, like, it's true. I would say from about then, for about 30, 40 minutes. I think I was more not in shock, but like it hadn't even set in yet. And then when I. We went out in the street, it was fucking nuts. And then I've been on cloud nine since.
- [02:25]
B
Did you hear those, like, tapes they have just of the city? Like, the noise, like, not of one thing.
- [02:29]
A
I've seen videos. The city's literally. Yeah, I. I saw the videos outside of msg and I was sort of torn between whether I wished I had been there for that or not.
- [02:41]
B
You know, I think if you just get a taste of shared excitement, you don't need.
- [02:44]
A
You know, we did this Jamie left side. We then took a cab down. We hadn't just stay on wax the whole time, all the way down to Soho and. And windows down. And just. Even just seeing the city that way was amazing. Like, it was great. So we're going to do this is me at All Sports, pretty much all Sports episode. And we're going to talk about the
- [03:06]
B
World Cup, a little bit of World
- [03:08]
A
cup about New York athletes, and that's some stuff like that. But I think maybe the way to start is I wrote a substack that came out yesterday and thought I would just. Usually Hugo doesn't like it when I read an entire substack.
- [03:22]
B
I try to stop it from engaging
- [03:23]
A
for the listeners, but I think in this case it's such an essay that it makes sense to just read it straight through. So it's called the Wonderful Central Life Giving Connective Tissue of Sports. Like every teenager, there was a time when I didn't have all that much to say to my dad. But no matter how difficult I was or how much I resented him, we could always talk about sports. The Mets won the World Series in 1986 when I was 13. My dad and I were at Game 6 when Mookie Wilson Squibbler went through Bill Buckner's legs. The Mets survived and then won the whole thing in game seven. Because I was 13 and there was nothing more important than the Mets, I always assumed that Game 6 would be the greatest sports moment of my life. In fact, my bar mitzvah was scheduled for a few days after the World Series. Rabbi Rosenthal called my parents that Monday to tell them it would have to be canceled because I hadn't learned my haftarah. I was outraged. Not by the rabbi's accusation he was right. But because the idea of being expected to memorize a bunch of Hebrew when the Mets were in the playoffs was completely unreasonable. My dad yelled at me and told me to stay home from school. That day and memorize it. I did and the bar Mitzvah went on as planned. Fast forward 40 years. I'm a dad. My son Lyle is 17. We have a really close relationship, but 80% of our conversations are about sports. Lyle and I have always gone to games together. My daughter Abby is much less of a sports fan, but has been to a lot of games too. We've been to a dozen different ballparks. We even stayed in the hotel room facing center field in Toronto, which was particularly cool. We've been to NFL and NBA games around the country. We went to two road games this year where the Knicks happened to be in New Orleans and Charlotte at the same time we were. We sat right on the baseline. Both times in New Orleans, the ref let Lyle hold the ball. During a timeout in Charlotte there was an unfortunate incident involving Dababy, a very drunk fan and concanipple. It happened right next to us when was unfortunately viewed often with us in the shot looking annoyed and dumbfounded over 10 million times. We've been to the Olympics, the Indy 500, the Rose bowl, the Ryder cup, the baseball playoffs, the basketball playoffs. Somehow the National Snowmobiling Championship, college basketball, the NBA All Star games, spring training, minor league games, Cooperstown, multiple championship fights, even hockey. We have Knicks and Met season tickets. It's our thing. As the Knicks were halfway through their incredible historic playoff run, Lyle turned to me and said I have to drop out of the Georgetown summer program. He explained it was unreasonable to expect him to be in D.C. during the NBA Finals. I told him that he'd applied, teachers wrote him recommendation letters and we'd already paid the tuition, so he was going. He did not agree. He said I was being unreasonable. It reminded me of someone. My dad came with me to game three. Lyle ended up being able to come home for Game 4, the greatest comeback in NBA Finals history. No matter who I was with, the game easily would have been one of the most incredible experiences I've ever had. That Lyle was there with me made it unfathomably perfect. Of the two home finals games, I found myself at the age of 52 with my 81 year old dad and my 17 year old son. All of us connected by the same thing. Sports. Both of those nights were just as good as the mets. Unforgettable game six 40 years ago. Actually even better. And emotionally, New York itself has never felt better. I cannot remember ever seeing this city this united and this excited. But for many men and many women too, sports is the best connective tissue I know when you have nothing else to talk about, there's always sports. When you have to discuss something difficult, sports is a great way to ease in. When Lyle wants to talk to me about something he's struggling with, talking first about sports sets the tone. We get to the underlying topic eventually. If the one thing in life that matters most is having relationships with unconditional love and support, sports helps make that happen. For so many of us, talking about sports, texting about sports, watching sports, playing sports, going to sports, all helps bring us together. It's an expression of love, of friendship, of understanding. Being a person in this world is hard. It's true if you don't have enough food, enough housing, enough employment, enough safety. It's also true if you don't have enough friendship, enough camaraderie, enough love, enough meaning, enough purpose. Everyone struggles emotionally, everyone has trouble with some relationship in their lives. And for many of us, sports is a reliable way to connect, a way to share, a way to experience things together. It's not a magic potion, but sometimes it feels that way. That was true for me when I was 13 and living and dying with every at bat from Darrel and every pitch from Doc. It's still true at 52, with every rebound from Kat, every tip in from OG and every three pointer from JB. It's true for my dad, it's true for my son, it's true for so many of my friends, for so many of us all. As I sit here thinking about the Knicks finally winning the title, thinking about all the ways I got to experience it with my son, with my dad, with my family, with my friends, it's clear that the whole process has been a lot more than just basketball, more than just sports. It's an essential part of life itself. I couldn't ask for anything more.
- [08:24]
B
Very nice.
- [08:25]
A
Thank you.
- [08:26]
B
I don't even know what now. I was going to, you know, ask you a bunch of basketball questions, but that's not.
- [08:30]
A
I don't know. Yeah, I mean, look, I mean, do you. Has that been true in your life? And would the fact that you have daughters, would you say that your experience is different?
- [08:42]
B
A little different? I mean, they're just not as into sports. But Orly and I are big Liverpool soccer fans, so we've been, we've been to Liverpool and we bond on that. But it's, it's a lot like you said, you know, it's, it's the time together that kind of is the thing. Because the game matters and obviously it focuses your attention and you're into it. And it's a kind of shared thing, but it's also just going to the game, sitting there, getting stuff to eat. There's a whole ritual to it that's very kind of life affirming and good. And it feels more. I mean, I was like a crazy 90s Knicks fan and crazy Yankees fan as a kid, just like you were a Mets fan. But there's something feels different about this. I mean, it might just be immediacy or something, but like.
- [09:24]
A
No, it's. It's different. I think It's. Look, those Knicks 90s teams were. I was really into it too.
- [09:33]
B
But they were so hard though.
- [09:36]
A
They were thuggish. And Riley was like a hired gun in a way. And you never quite trusted in Ewing the way you do in Brunson. And there's something about this group of guys, this team and the way they have won, right, is just so incredible. In two ways, right? One is the dominance. So they were 16 and three in the playoffs, swept two of those series, beat the spurs, who were significantly favored to win in five games. And the one game they lost was by four points. The totality of their three losses was by six points. So on one hand they were totally dominant. On the other hand, it was a playoff of comebacks. Right. You know, I mean, they were down
- [10:25]
B
and playing terribly at times. I mean, it was very strange. And the thing that struck me too was with the two guys, the two big sort of heroes of the Finals, Brunson and OG you know, they're interviewing them afterwards and those guys are basketball nerds. I mean, they have studied the game. They're not flashy personalities. In fact, they're almost shockingly like.
- [10:48]
A
I don't know, I don't even want
- [10:48]
B
to say inarticulate because it seems like it's a diss. And I don't mean to diss them at all because they're just in the moment and they get to be whoever they are, it doesn't matter. And you don't need a sloganeering kind of guy in that moment. You just want someone who's present like they were and just very moved by all that was happening. But it was incredible how they're not flashy New York guys at all. They're really just super intense.
- [11:13]
A
And the whole team just generally seems like pretty nice guys. Right. It doesn't feel like it's a group of people who are, you know, like. Yeah, right. The 86 match are my sort of, you know, other really favorite team ever, but a different vibe Very different. Did you read that book, the Bad Guys, one about the 86 mats?
- [11:36]
B
I read all the reviews of it. That's Jeff Pearlman.
- [11:38]
A
Is that it?
- [11:39]
B
Yeah, yeah. It was awesome, Jeff.
- [11:40]
A
So I just. Look, maybe we'll learn in the future differently, but it doesn't feel like you could possibly write that book about this group of guys.
- [11:47]
B
No, no.
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A
Really calm, nice people.
- [11:51]
B
And basketball. So does puts more of a premium on, on chemistry than baseball does. You can have a. You can have a team of like total, like, you know, the, you know, the famous thing about the Oakland A's. 25 players, 25 Red Sox. But yeah, I think it's probably been true a bunch of different times. But like, you know, it can happen in baseball because the kind of mechanics of the game are really about, you know.
- [12:13]
A
Also it's 40 years since that Mets team. Right. And I think because of the way the world has changed, media has changed, the Internet, everything else, you could get away with that 40 years ago, the kind of shit they did. Whereas today I actually think our athletes, you know, obviously there are people that do dumb shit, there are always bad people in any walk of life. But overall I think there's so much scrutiny on them that they have had to become very different. And I think as a result, they're just far less likely to do the kind of stuff the 86 Mets did, simply because it would be found out not in a book a decade or two later, but that hour, that minute. And so I think that the nature of sports has changed so a lot too since then.
- [12:59]
B
Yeah, media, culture, all that. So the coach that was a. You know, I think going into this season, I don't know exactly how you felt, but I feel like it was the same, you know, a little bit of a disappointment that we got this kind of like, you know, retread of a coach who like wasn't. Yeah, he wasn't widely respected by fans. I think he has won coach of
- [13:18]
A
the year multiple times.
- [13:19]
B
Twice, right?
- [13:19]
A
Yeah, three times.
- [13:20]
B
Yeah. And. And yet one thing that emerged in this is that he, you know, again, maybe some of it's luck, but when you go 16 and 3 in the playoffs, you can't really, you can't really attribute much to luck. Something else was happening.
- [13:33]
A
No. And the way that they played as a team, the buy in into the schemes to the defense, especially the ability for everyone to just kind of almost see it all as one. And also everyone understood their roles. Right. JB was clearly the leader, but he's also someone that really sacrifices by the way, most evident by the fact that he took 100 million less in his contract so they would have more money to pay other guys. You know, Cat really became much better defensively. Right. And just, you know, OG is kind of who he is, but, like, it just. And when Bridges really fell apart in the beginning of that Atlanta series, obviously his teammates did a great job kind of keeping his spirits because he reemerged and was a, you know, key part of this team. And so I think that's right. And look, I was never a huge Thibodeau fan because I just felt like.
- [14:33]
B
No, we were used to complain all the time about just how much he seemed to grind the players, but Mike
- [14:37]
A
Brown was certainly not the popular choice.
- [14:39]
B
No.
- [14:40]
A
And he wasn't, let's be honest, their first choice, they tried to get a bunch of other coaches and it didn't work out. And they got a guy who clearly was the right person for the moment.
- [14:50]
B
And he. And he stayed, you know, fairly low profile. You know, he wasn't like. Tibbs was. Definitely felt like the face of the team.
- [14:58]
A
Right.
- [14:59]
B
And. And Mike Brown did not, you know. Right.
- [15:01]
A
It's funny. Tibbs acted like all he wanted to do is be looking at exos and never having to be public, but yet somehow he managed to be quite public. Whereas Mike Brown.
- [15:09]
B
Well, his bad mood, sort of like,
- [15:11]
A
yes, this guy over the. Seem like he's only obsessed with watching film. And yet, you know, you really didn't see him out there much. And by the way, Leon Rose, who's the general manager of the Knicks, when he spoke after the game on Game 5, that was the first time I'd ever heard him speak.
- [15:27]
B
Yeah.
- [15:28]
A
So, yeah, it was just. It was fantastic. So maybe next, then I want to talk about. I made a list that I sent our group chat of either that night or the next day, kind of the. A couple categories, but it was basically best New York athletes ever. So this is not in any particular. Not in order now.
- [15:50]
B
You know, I try to get you to order.
- [15:51]
A
I know.
- [15:52]
B
Because it makes it more. More.
- [15:53]
A
But it's also really hard because it's like different sports. Right. So Anyway, the top 10, in my view, New York athletes ever. Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio, Derek Jeter, Willie Mays, Jackie Robinson, Tom Seaver, Lawrence Taylor, Clyde Frazier, and of course, Jalen Brunson. Anyone that you would change in the top 10.
- [16:14]
B
Well, you have him on the list of just who misses the cut, I think John McEnroe for us opens.
- [16:20]
A
Okay. New York City take out. That's fine, but you got to remove someone.
- [16:25]
B
I don't have the list in front of me. Say them again, quick. Yeah. Not ruth.
- [16:29]
A
Mantle.
- [16:30]
B
Nope.
- [16:31]
A
DiMaggio?
- [16:32]
B
No.
- [16:33]
A
Cheater.
- [16:34]
B
Nope.
- [16:35]
A
Willie Mays?
- [16:36]
B
Nope.
- [16:37]
A
Jackie Robinson?
- [16:38]
B
Nope.
- [16:38]
A
Tom Seaver.
- [16:39]
B
Yes.
- [16:40]
A
That's crazy. That's crazy. The 69 Mets.
- [16:45]
B
One World Series with the Mets.
- [16:47]
A
Because they fucking traded him. But he still won three Cy Youngs.
- [16:49]
B
He played 10 more years of them,
- [16:50]
A
won three Cy Youngs.
- [16:51]
B
Yeah. Four US Opens from New York City, I think Mciners.
- [16:55]
A
And they almost won the 73 World
- [16:56]
B
Series, four US Opens, three Wimbledons.
- [16:59]
A
All right. And you wouldn't put them over Taylor Brunson or Clyde.
- [17:03]
B
You know, the funny thing is, I don't ever remember watching, like, Clyde play basketball.
- [17:09]
A
Get out of your fucking mind.
- [17:11]
B
Like, neither have I.
- [17:12]
A
But still, you didn't watch Babe Ruth either.
- [17:13]
B
I know, I know, I know. But the Babe Ruth stats are so
- [17:16]
A
crazy, so Gabe will tell you that. So who would you.
- [17:19]
B
If you had to take off one of those, if you had to put McEnroe on the list, who would you take off? McEnroe's from New York City.
- [17:27]
A
I would have to take off either Manta or DiMaggio.
- [17:30]
B
Mantle or DiMaggio. You probably have to take off DiMaggio then. Right? Because I think they win more under Mantle.
- [17:36]
A
I guess he had a longer career, so. All right. And then I had a second section, which was special mention for postseason greatness. Not to say that these guys weren't also great players.
- [17:48]
B
Yes. But Eli gets on the list.
- [17:50]
A
Eli Manning, Absolutely. Right. Of course. Joe Namath. Who. Look, again, before my time. Pretty much before yours. Right. I don't get the sense that he was. Again, he had an incredible playoff run like Eli did and was so flashy, but I don't know, when you look at the stats, that he was that amazing overall. Reggie Jackson, you know. And by the way, who also was amazing overall, too, but didn't play in New York as long.
- [18:16]
B
No, just two years. Three years.
- [18:19]
A
Couple. I'm not sure, but 79. And Mark Messier. Right?
- [18:23]
B
Yeah. Oh, wow. You gave up Bubba. Hockey One.
- [18:25]
A
Yeah.
- [18:26]
B
Nice of you.
- [18:26]
A
And then just missed the cut. Will. Treed.
- [18:31]
B
Yeah.
- [18:31]
A
Patrick Ewing.
- [18:32]
B
Yeah.
- [18:33]
A
I have John Mackno. You would have put him in the top 10.
- [18:35]
B
I would have.
- [18:36]
A
Aaron Judge.
- [18:37]
B
Yeah.
- [18:37]
A
Mariana Rivera.
- [18:38]
B
Mariana Rivera comes pretty close. Pretty close in the top 10 for me. I have to say.
- [18:42]
A
I agree. Again, the problem is, what do you take on Mantle and DiMaggio or whatever?
- [18:46]
B
Like, you know, dude, Cheaper, man. He's going out.
- [18:49]
A
How dare you. Michael Strahan.
- [18:53]
B
Michael Strahan.
- [18:54]
A
Mike Tyson.
- [18:55]
B
I can't stand Michael Strahan though. I just can't stand. He's a great football player.
- [18:58]
A
Well, he was a great football player. More he was on what, two super bowl teams.
- [19:01]
B
It was just. I still think of the. The Brett Far giving him the. The. The sa. I know that's not strands fault. He didn't do it. But like there's just something about that. It's just.
- [19:12]
A
Yeah, I know. But still, I, I have Matt Strahan before. I did with him once. He was really nice.
- [19:18]
B
Yeah, he seems like a nice guy. There's just something about his sort of media profile that whatever.
- [19:23]
A
I don't like Mike Tyson.
- [19:25]
B
Yeah, Mike Tyson. Mike Tyson. I mean, that's the other one where. I mean, New York City guy, like, like he might belong in the top 10 too.
- [19:32]
A
Yeah. Although he grew up in Poughkeepsie. I mean, he was from Brooklyn, sir. Brownsville, but he did. Yeah, that grew up. But he spent some very formative part of his life in Poughkeepsie.
- [19:41]
B
But he, he was definitely over the age of 10 by the time it
- [19:44]
A
was Cus Custom Auto brought him up there. But. And to get him out of Brooklyn, though Poughkeepsie is not exactly, you know, Westchester.
- [19:53]
B
I don't think. I don't think it was that either.
- [19:54]
A
Yeah, but Lou Gehrig and then I added two more. Mike Bossy, isn't he. Did they win four Stanley Cups in a row?
- [20:04]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [20:05]
A
Don't you have to give them that?
- [20:07]
B
Yeah, I mean they. But they had a bunch of other guys on that team, so.
- [20:09]
A
Wasn't he the best player?
- [20:11]
B
Well, not necessarily. Pot Van might have been the best player. The goalie was good. Billy Smith. And then the line was try to boss Angeli.
- [20:18]
A
I'm give you one Islander from that era. Who do you want?
- [20:21]
B
I think I. I think Podvan's the best player of all of them. Yeah, I mean, he didn't score as much, but I think he's the best Islander.
- [20:27]
A
I have one last one. Greta White.
- [20:29]
B
Greta White for the marathon.
- [20:30]
A
Yes. One like eight marathons or something.
- [20:32]
B
Wow, I like that you dug for that one. Now you say that. I feel like of course she belongs,
- [20:36]
A
but like, you know, and I don't have. I was wondering, the Liberty, is there someone who was super dominant when they won the title a few years ago?
- [20:42]
B
You know, I'm going to be embarrassed to say I follow them a little bit. But I don't know enough to say to answer that question.
- [20:48]
A
Yeah, Taurasi was on Liberty.
- [20:52]
B
Tarasi was, I don't know the end of her career.
- [20:54]
A
This is our ignorance.
- [20:55]
B
Yeah, you're. We're going to take this out otherwise.
- [20:57]
A
Yeah, whatever. But, but anyway so that, that's the New York any. Howard thought that Garrick should be in the top 10 but again he didn't. But then when Gary challenged him to remove someone he didn't so I don't.
- [21:10]
B
Well, that's the key is because, because Howard did you know nobody wanted to say Seaver except for me like to remove him to, to you know, nobody argues Seaver. Okay.
- [21:17]
A
I mean he's a good pitcher. Look, your partisanship me as a Mets fan, I am gracious enough that I included four Yankees in that list. You as a Yankees fan viciously excluded the one match.
- [21:30]
B
I didn't viciously exclude.
- [21:31]
A
I, I, I favor a tennis player.
- [21:34]
B
Yeah, except John Macro is a New York icon.
- [21:36]
A
Is there someone from pickleball you'd like to include as well?
- [21:38]
B
There are a bunch of pickle ball guys.
- [21:41]
A
All right, next topic.
- [21:42]
B
Wait, are we forgetting anything?
- [21:43]
A
Did you any one or anything.
- [21:45]
B
I'm just wondering if there's like some the Greek.
- [21:49]
A
We'll go through this. Okay so next. I think we covered it really well. I mean if Towns has a lot more good years he would get into that Miss the cut list.
- [21:57]
B
Yeah, miss the cut.
- [21:58]
A
Right. And I don't think you could have argued to put OG on the postseason list. But Brunson was definitely the mvp. So I'm not sure that the guy who didn't win the MVP could make the list. Right. Despite the fact that he might have had the greatest single moment in Nick's history for the Nets. I mean the Honestly the best fanatic. I mean serving right Dr. J. But so did he belong on the. He should have been on the miss the cut list.
- [22:27]
B
Right. Well the problem is is that first of all he did play on Long Island. They he played in the aba which was not the dominant league and by the time the NBA came around he was on a different team Philly.
- [22:37]
A
So yeah. So that was why I kind of. And then there was no one else on the Nets. There was really no one on the. I mean the guys had some great players like Curtis Martin's like one of actually that's one of the top rushing yards and scrimmage whatever ever or something like that. But you would never think of him in that way. The Devils, they have anyone Brodeur Yeah.
- [22:58]
B
Brodeur is the best devil. And. And they did win a bunch of times.
- [23:01]
A
So should he be on that Miss the cut list?
- [23:05]
B
He was their best player and one of the. Probably.
- [23:08]
A
Anyone else, like an individual athlete, like a McEnroe or a Tyson?
- [23:11]
B
How many other sports are there that are individual, that are big enough besides tennis and boxing? Like, it's hard to think golf.
- [23:17]
A
Is there, like, a great. Great, like, Ben Hogan or someone from New York?
- [23:20]
B
I don't think so.
- [23:20]
A
Probably not.
- [23:21]
B
But also, like, definitely, like, didn't win stuff here, so.
- [23:24]
A
Right.
- [23:24]
B
Makes a big difference.
- [23:25]
A
Yeah. So. Yeah. Such a list. But listeners, what about.
- [23:29]
B
What about the. Your. Your buddy, the. The competitive eating guy? The.
- [23:33]
A
Oh, Joe Chestnut. But he's not from here, I don't think.
- [23:35]
B
Still. I mean, if he.
- [23:36]
A
Oh, because it all happened in Brooklyn.
- [23:38]
B
Yeah. You know.
- [23:39]
A
Yeah. And you put him ahead of Kobayashi. Yeah, he. No, Chestnut is the goat. I don't.
- [23:44]
B
I defer to you on competitive eating.
- [23:47]
A
Would. Chestnut is the goat. So then. Now a related topic, which is I think that the Nets should leave New York. So, you know, you don't own them currently.
- [24:00]
B
Correct.
- [24:01]
A
Own them.
- [24:02]
B
I mean, the Nets owners probably like being here.
- [24:05]
A
No.
- [24:06]
B
Right. You're telling me.
- [24:07]
A
I'll get that.
- [24:08]
B
Okay.
- [24:08]
A
Okay. So the first thing is, do you know anyone?
- [24:11]
B
I do know. We've talked about this before.
- [24:13]
A
Right. You had, like, one guy. Right.
- [24:15]
B
The question. I'm cutting Bradley up. The question is, do you know anybody who's an actual Nets fan? Yes, I actually know two people.
- [24:21]
A
Two?
- [24:22]
B
Yeah.
- [24:22]
A
Okay. Right. How many Knicks fans do you know?
- [24:25]
B
A ton. But I am a Knicks fan, so I don't go to, like, you know, the. To. To. To watch Nets very often.
- [24:31]
A
So, look, let's just go through. The Nets were an ABA team.
- [24:35]
B
Right?
- [24:35]
A
Right. Long Island. Then the ABA and the NBA merge, and I guess around. That's when they moved to Jersey.
- [24:42]
B
Yeah, I think they moved to Jersey right away.
- [24:44]
A
And they were played at the Meadowlands. And then about Brendan Byrne Arena. Yep. And then about 15 years ago, they came to Brooklyn. Is that about right?
- [24:52]
B
Yeah, it seems right. Yeah.
- [24:53]
A
And it was a big thing when they came here because it was sort of the. It was like when Girls was a TV show and Brooklyn was fully ascendant and had arrived or. Well, I guess that's. Yeah. And Barclays was a big plus.
- [25:08]
B
It had sort of been reborn, let's put it that way.
- [25:10]
A
Yeah. Right. And with that said, even in. At the couple times when the Nets were mildly interesting, no one gave a Shit. Like think about when the Nets had Durant and Kyrie Harden. People still cared more about the Knicks. The Knicks were abysmal in those years, like horrible. And Nets had. Three guys are gonna be the.
- [25:32]
B
Did look a little bit. That would. That things would flip though, didn't it? No, I agree, it didn't.
- [25:37]
A
They had three guys that will all be in the hall of Fame. Yeah, right. They're all the top 100 players of all time. Durant on the top 20. Right. And at the end of the day, it didn't fucking matter. They are not even the most popular basketball team in their own arena. That's the Liberty. Yeah, right. So now flip it around. There are cities like Seattle, Vegas, Nashville, Mexico City that get spoken of as destinations for an NBA expansion. So Seattle unquestionably deserves a team because the Sonics were kind of taken from them, unfairly moved to Oklahoma City. They have a new hockey arena, the Kraken. So that could host the Nets easily because pretty much every NBA arena is also in an NHL arena and vice versa. The NBA right now has this kind of weird geographical thing where like team teams have to go play the Trailblazers in Portland. And it's not near anything else. Right. There's no other Northwest.
- [26:32]
B
I mean, it's not that far away from Golden State. But.
- [26:34]
A
Yes, but yeah. And so there's not like a base out there. And that's a place where you could have it. If you're the Nets, you can never win in New York. Even if they win games, they're still not gonna win because nobody cares. And why not go to a place that would like to have you?
- [26:54]
B
I mean, I think their attendance is pretty good though.
- [26:55]
A
It is. Because yes, it's true. That's the one thing. But I think it's deceptive. It is because it is NBA basketball in a city that has a 20 million person region that is obsessed with basketball. So yes, their attendance is pretty good, but it does not exist in the zeitgeist in any way. Nobody cares. Right? And even though they have cool branding, they actually have a good hat and logo and jersey and it's Brooklyn and all that. And Barclays is like a pretty good arena.
- [27:25]
B
I don't like it. I love it from the outside. It looks like it's a really cool.
- [27:28]
A
I think it looks okay. I mean, it's a guard, but I don't think it's bad at all. I've been to enough arenas. I think it actually holds up reasonably well. But why not go to a city Like Seattle, where they would love to have you. They'd be ecstatic to have you. You would be the kings of that city. You can rename yourself, rebrand yourself, start over. You mentioned Joe Tsai who owns the Nets. First of all, he's not a New Yorker. He grew up in Taiwan. He's a Canadian citizen. Seattle's right next to Canada. Vancouver, which is a short two hour ferry ride to downtown Seattle, has a huge Chinese population that they could target. So Seattle would get a team. The Nets would have a much better situation. The NBA would benefit. I don't think New York City would even notice.
- [28:15]
B
Well, here's. Okay, here's the counter argument. A couple things. First of all, they're going to give a team to Seattle in the next expansion. How much are they going to make from that? $5 billion.
- [28:24]
A
I mean, crazy. But hold on. But that's not a fair economic argument.
- [28:28]
B
Well, I'm making a couple different arguments, but there's that.
- [28:31]
A
But you're then also losing a proportionate share of TV revenue forevermore for the owner. So they're getting money up front, but they're losing over time.
- [28:42]
B
But they are expanding. They are going to, they're going to add Vegas and Seattle.
- [28:46]
A
That it seems likely. Yeah, but at the same time you don't.
- [28:50]
B
And I said.
- [28:51]
A
But if you said to the owners, the league wants two more teams, a team in Vegas and team Seattle, not two more, but those two markets. Right. Fine. But if you said to the owners, would you rather have your share of 5 billion now and be less diluted on TV rights as opposed to your share of 10 billion now but more diluted? I think each team, I think they take it. I don't know.
- [29:14]
B
That's why they're expanding.
- [29:15]
A
I think each team would sort of have to think of it. My guess is that there are some owners that would say because it decreases the value of the franchise. So some owners would say I'd rather not have the dilution. Some owners would rather have the cash up front. I don't. And especially if you're saying you're still going to get half the cash up front. I'm just not sure that it's a clear cut economic.
- [29:38]
B
Well, it seems like they've decided to do it. So I mean they haven't announced it, but everybody expects it. So the other, the other thing is.
- [29:44]
A
Don't you. But they haven't known this as an option.
- [29:48]
B
Well, I think they probably looked at everything. Don't you think they probably looked at like which weak franchise but I'm sure they'd like to move Memphis if they could. I mean, like.
- [29:54]
A
Well, but, but if you would, Memphis, you just moved to Nashville. That would be very easy, right?
- [29:58]
B
And I bet they don't love being in New Orleans, so.
- [30:03]
A
No, but, you know, but, but I think in that scenario, first of all, you could move New Orleans to Vegas and the nest to Seattle. But the other thing is, let's say, let's. The, the four cities that we mentioned, Seattle, Vegas, Nashville, Mexico City. So one way to do it would be you could cover all of those bases. You move the nest to Seattle, you move New Orleans to Vegas, you move Memphis to Nashville, and you put an expansion team in Mexico City.
- [30:27]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think you have some ownership groups that want a piece of the action, right? So you have, you have, you have interest in both Seattle and Vegas who are offering tons of money that want to be in on this. And I think they've been cultivating that for a long time. So.
- [30:40]
A
Yeah, but I don't know if.
- [30:41]
B
I don't know that Seattle, like, the people are organized around the team. They're gonna be like, oh, cool, we get a team, but it's owned by some other guy. I don't think that's probably part of.
- [30:48]
A
The fans really care who they are.
- [30:50]
B
The fans don't care at all. But like, it takes a lot to like, actually get corporate sort of support for a team. So I think, I think there's a lot of internal politics that make just moving the Nets to Seattle not as easy as it sounds.
- [31:01]
A
I don't know. Seattle has an amazing fan base. Look at the Seahawks, right?
- [31:05]
B
Look, the team, the team will be successful.
- [31:07]
A
So I, you know, I don't know. Look, I'm just thinking if, if, if I were the. I, I just look at it and say it's so often inventure. I'll give you an. Someone creates a new category and they build a market and they, and, but they haven't. They don't have tech that's super proprietary. So it's not like someone else can't do it. So then the thing that you add, then a million companies try to file copy, right? And then we see these companies, right? So we weren't in the first one. And the question is, how much of a first mover advantage does the original company have that they can or can't be caught, right? And sometimes the answer is not much. Sometimes the answer is it's not worth it, right? The Knicks first mover advantage is so massive, it can't be caught. And while in a lot of industries you could say, well, the number two player is still a wildly successful company, of course you'd want to invest in this case where we're talking about, yes, attendance, and that's fine, but ultimately. But by the way, would be sold out every game in Seattle, which it's not in Brooklyn. But mind share, heart share, whatever phrase you want to use, it will never happen here. Do you really think what we're feeling right now and seeing right now would be the case of the Nets that just won the NBA title?
- [32:26]
B
No, of course not. But we're not Nets fans.
- [32:28]
A
But, but New York City. Do you think that Brooklyn would go
- [32:31]
B
pretty nuts if the, if the, if the Nets had a title in the next couple years? I think people would jump on real fast.
- [32:36]
A
But like, maybe I don't, I don't know. I don't like people want to be
- [32:42]
B
part of winning things. Like most of, most of the.
- [32:44]
A
Most you have to be connected to it. So like.
- [32:47]
B
Well, a lot of people are connected. Do you think the Haim sisters are connected to the freaking Knicks?
- [32:50]
A
No, but, but, but lots of people. Like when we were watching game five, you know, Jamie and I are obviously lifelong Knicks fan, season ticket holders, all that.
- [32:59]
B
But no, you guys are real deal.
- [33:00]
A
I'm not questioning that. And Jamie's daughter Eleanor both said not really Knicks fans, but have gotten super into this. And I was like, great. And they probably watching the games even on their own, all the stuff, right? Yeah, same family, same thing, but because they're connected to it. Right. Whereas Abby, who's right now in Australia, but like, you know, we've been texting about the Knicks. Right. She's not like a super big fan at all. Right.
- [33:22]
B
What time are the games on there?
- [33:24]
A
Well, she just landed there this morning, but like, but she wouldn't have even been aware of the Nets if they had were in the finals right now. Like you still be connected to someone that cares and that didn't happen. Right. So I don't know like when the Liberty won the title a few years ago. And I understand WNBA is not the NBA, but because not they're Liberty are a popular team for WNBA team and they're popular people in New York, but they're not a beloved New York franchise like the Knicks. And as a result the spread was a lot less. Right. So I just think that because sports, as the essay that we started with has so is so intangible in so many ways. The intangibility of sports is in New York is just never going to accrue to the Nets.
- [34:10]
B
So Bradley, what does just being a normal Mets fan, going back to your everyday life as a sports fan, does
- [34:17]
A
it feel kind of like. Well, I'm certainly postponing the inevitable because the Mets are not having a good year to say the least. And then the Giants have been a terrible team for a while now. And it's funny when they order, I
- [34:29]
B
mean it's trending in the right direction. It is.
- [34:31]
A
But now they've all these injuries, neighbors. Who knows if when he's coming back he's certainly been the season it might. I mean some people say it's a career ending injury. A bunch of guys in the defense are already out. So you know, there was this moment of, of hope with the Giants that maybe they do what the Patriots did last year or some version of it where really weak schedule they got. Now they've gotten a bunch of really good draft picks, you know, on the team, new coach and quarterback that's, you know, Jackson Dart may not be any less good than, than Drake maybe and could we do something similar? And now it does not feel like that at all. Right.
- [35:07]
B
We got Odell Beckham back.
- [35:09]
A
Right. So, you know, there's an argument that until the Knicks start again at the end of October, there's kind of.
- [35:15]
B
Well, let's talk about next season in a sense. Like, like, I mean, I guess it always sort of feels this way. You're like, oh my God, it goes on. Right? Right.
- [35:22]
A
So Howard did said some. I don't know. Were you on that yesterday? Probably, but it was like an off season preface. I don't want to see this yet. I don't care.
- [35:29]
B
It's too soon.
- [35:30]
A
I'm still.
- [35:31]
B
Are you going to the parade?
- [35:33]
A
No, I'm not for two reasons. One is I'm going to be in Cape Cod speaking. I'm speaking at an event. I partly said yes to it. It sounds like it's a really. It's a tech event kind of, but around behavioral health we've got some investments in the space. But also it's at the Kennedy compound in Highnessport.
- [35:51]
B
At the compound? Yeah, they do events there.
- [35:53]
A
I guess it's a family member that's hosting it. Wow.
- [35:56]
B
Okay.
- [35:57]
A
So I was like, yeah. And they invited me to speak at it. I was like, yeah, that sounds kind of cool. So I'm gonna be at the Kennedy Khan Foundation.
- [36:04]
B
Never turn down an invitation. You may never get one again.
- [36:07]
A
I never have before. Probably won't. Right. So like I'm gonna beat that. Anyway. But even if I kind of like rearranged everything to get back for it,
- [36:20]
B
brains are pretty boring in person, I think. But they're. And they're fun to just look at them to watch.
- [36:23]
A
And also, so Lyle, you know, we had this whole drama where he. He came back for game four. I got permission for that. Then he wanted permission to come back if there were a game six. They said no. But then, interestingly, someone in the office said, oh, you know what? We saw your request. I guess they got excited to Nick. So I tell your dad to call. So I called. And they're like, he can't have an excuse absence, but he can have an unexcused absence. Like, what does that mean? They're like, well, if he doesn't miss a class, it'll probably be okay, kind of a little like, hey, we didn't we just say this? But harm, no foul. And so he and I kind of worked out a train schedule where basically he would have taken a 5am train back the next morning and he would have gotten to class, like 10 minutes late. Right. In time, something like that. Right. And so we worked that out fine. Then after the next one, he said, I gotta come back for the parade. And I said, no, you're not missing school for the parade. So then last night, Harper and I had a call with him where he pled his case. And it was interesting. He made two arguments. One was that I told him when he was 9, oh, my God. That if the Knicks ever won the title, he could go to the parade.
- [37:28]
B
Okay.
- [37:29]
A
And I said, yeah, but that's because you were a little kid and you couldn't have gone to a game that started at 8:30 at night. You got to go to not only a finals game, but maybe the greatest one ever. Right? And then two was it was logically inconsistent because we let her miss class to go to a game. So therefore the same principle should apply to the parade. And I said, you know the phrase no good deed goes unpunished. But, you know, he made his case.
- [37:56]
B
Did you hear yourself again?
- [37:58]
A
Of course.
- [37:58]
B
Of course.
- [37:59]
A
But he accepted his. But the point is, because I told him no, I also feel a little better not going myself.
- [38:05]
B
Yeah.
- [38:06]
A
Are you going?
- [38:07]
B
I don't think so. I mean, I'm excited, but I don't. I don't. Yeah, I don't. I don't love standing there in parades.
- [38:13]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, right? I'm not. I guess if I were in town, maybe I'd go, but I'm not. I didn't care at all.
- [38:19]
B
So have you done anything else been to keep in terms of recommendations you want to talk about?
- [38:23]
A
Yeah. Would you like the World cup real fast or.
- [38:26]
B
No, of course. I forgot about. I was trying to remember what our final topic.
- [38:29]
A
I do. Recommendation separately.
- [38:30]
B
You were at. You were at the World Cup.
- [38:33]
A
My first soccer game I've ever attended in my life.
- [38:35]
B
Well, except for. Except for Abby's games.
- [38:37]
A
Yeah. Professional. Right. And it was cool. So we went to see Brazil play Morocco.
- [38:43]
B
Yeah. And very disappointing outcome for Brazil.
- [38:46]
A
Yeah. I hear the thing I don't know enough. I. What I enjoyed it to either. The way it works with the seats is you get. You got like a category. You bought a category.
- [38:57]
B
Okay.
- [38:58]
A
And then they assign you a seat
- [39:00]
B
when you get there.
- [39:01]
A
No, like a month ago or something like that. And when I saw it, I was like, oh, I don't think it's that they're very good just from. Because I didn't know because I paid the highest price other than like the sponsorships, whatever. But it ends. So we were in one of the corners, row 14. It was actually an excellent. They were excellent seats. We saw the field so incredibly soccer.
- [39:22]
B
Really good spectator sports too.
- [39:23]
A
Yeah. So we were really close. We were 14 row. It wasn't like then like six row, add whatever. It was like we were row 14. So it was really close and we had a great vantage point. Like actually, I'm sure maybe it's better to be in the middle. But like, they were great. The energy was amazing. People were. But, you know, it was probably 3/4 or more Brazilian fans compared to Moroccan fans. But there were Brazilian fan taking pictures together, all kinds of stuff. It was, you know, it felt like the Olympics where everyone's just happy for everyone. Everyone's happy to be there. Everyone's happy. Part of it. Fans were great. You know, MetLife's a crappy stadium, but it was fine for that. And I didn't know enough to know if it was a good game or a bad game. Like it was one. One that seemed it was competitive.
- [40:16]
B
Goals were scored.
- [40:17]
A
Goals were scored. Although we thought that there was a shootout. I actually would have left 10 minutes before the game ended to not have the crazy Knicks traffic on the way or like to get out of there to get back for the Knicks. But we thought there would be a shootout. So like, well, I want to see the shootout.
- [40:36]
B
It's called penalties, whatever.
- [40:37]
A
But it didn't happen. Right. It was a dangerous, like literally ended. And then we're just sitting there waiting. And then we realized, oh, it's over. Literally had no idea. I think I texted you at halftime, like, how long is halftime? And didn't know. But it was really fun. I was really glad to go.
- [40:54]
B
And the hassle of getting there and back.
- [40:56]
A
So the hassle of getting there wasn't too bad. There was a Port Authority Port bus that we took that was fine. I actually, for some reason thought they like actually were creating a lane, which they did not. So there was traffic. But I would say from when we got to Port Authority to when we were in our seats wasn't much more than an hour.
- [41:16]
B
Yeah, that's not bad.
- [41:16]
A
That was great. Normal the way back, because we were going to Jamie's, we'd start taking Uber, thinking it would be better than being stuck potentially in a bus line forever and that it would be just because you still have gotten from Port Authority to the Upper east side. Anyway, that was a problem for a few reasons. One, it was literally a two mile walk to the Uber pickup area. So it said a mile, but it was on the other side of the racetrack. So it didn't account for that. You had to walk all the way around the racetrack. Plus getting. They didn't.
- [41:51]
B
How was your stress level during that high?
- [41:53]
A
Because we had that 1. The Knicks. 2. And then I think it was smart in that we got out of there faster than most people. But we called for the Uber pretty soon after. Like once we. As soon as we got reception leaving the stadium and then the guy, poor guy, had to wait forever for us because it took us. So we didn't realize how long it was gonna take to walk there. I saw something in the post today that said that some people who did rideshare had to. Didn't get out of their task from midnight.
- [42:22]
B
Oh my God.
- [42:23]
A
Which I think we were one of the first people to get in an actual Uber.
- [42:26]
B
Right. So all things considered.
- [42:27]
A
But then I couldn't watch the game. There was no reception on my phone. Issa had I Verizon, she had AT T. So we signed up for Hulu TV on her phone. And it was kind of intermittent, sporadic till we got maybe like a. And it took the guy a while to get out of the. Even the, like the rideshare area parking lot till we finally got maybe like two miles away. And then it kicked in and it was fine. But it was, it was, it was stressful. But overall, I would say definitely, if you're considering going to the World cup and if you're in the US and whatever city you're Thinking about, you know, and you're not a soccer. Soccer fan. Obviously, you know, you know what you're getting. But, like, if you're not like me, I would. But you're a huge sports fan and you just like experiencing sports. It was a great experience.
- [43:14]
B
Awesome recommendation.
- [43:16]
A
Yeah. So it's a book that I'm about three quarters of the way done with, so. But I don't really see it changing. Do you ever read the book Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk?
- [43:24]
B
Yes.
- [43:25]
A
So guy named Ben Fountain wrote it. Did you like it?
- [43:27]
B
I did.
- [43:27]
A
I thought it was exceptional. Maybe he's written books since. I'm not sure.
- [43:32]
B
Yeah. I'm not aware of when, but this
- [43:33]
A
is his new book. It's called Rasputin Swims the Potomac. It's kind of a political satire. So it's about Trump. Although, interestingly, I don't know if it's a gimmick or a legal thing, but they black out Trump's name all throughout the book.
- [43:48]
B
Okay.
- [43:48]
A
You know it's him, right? 100%. You know it's him, but. But they don't say his name.
- [43:54]
B
And then I'm surprised you'd want to read that.
- [43:56]
A
So it's interesting. So if it wasn't Ben Fountain, I might not have. Right. But he. I thought his last book was so exciting. I'm gonna give this guy a chance.
- [44:04]
B
Okay.
- [44:04]
A
And so the premise is he's running for. He gets the Supreme Court to overturn some law, and he's able to run for a third term. And the country's become, at this point, totally nightmare. Right? And the country has. And by the way, the one game the Knicks lost, just so we're clear, was the game that Trump was at. And it had a bad vibe the whole fucking time I was there. It was just not, you know, and, you know, the countries, whether this is slightly dystopian, like, even imagine Trump's worst tendencies just kind of extended out further and further and further with fewer and fewer controls, Right? So much more. Detention camps, all that kind of stuff. And Trump decides his VP is disloyal because she wants to run for president. And he's a big wrestling fan, and he's watching a match, and this guy Rasputin, who's like a Russian themed wrestler, he's a big fan of his. Then this sort of national plague happens where people get what's called the weeps, and they just start weeping uncontrollably. And at a match, Rasputin magically heals people who have it. And so Everyone gets obsessed with him, right? He's like the only guy that can do this. And Trump becomes obsessed with him. And Rasputin, one believes that he is not even reincarnation is the original Rasputin, even though he was a guy from Buffalo who served in the military. And then after the military, spent six years in a monastery outside of St. Petersburg, where he was sort of reborn as Rasputin, and then comes back to the US and becomes a professional wrestler. And he's just like, ultra spiritual, ultra Christian guy. We still haven't quite figured out his politics yet. And part of the appeal is he doesn't really have any. It seems like he's very sort of ultra Christian, but at the same time, ultra, like, loves humanity and has this ability to heal people by touching them in kind of a Jesus, like, I guess, way, if Jesus. I don't know if Jesus could do that or not, but. And first, Trump's gonna put him on the ticket as Vice president, then Rasputin decides to run against him, and then it's the race between the two of them. And the kind of narrative main character, not the narrow main character, is a woman who was in Trump's press office but had been, like, a reality TV star before that. And then she kind of ends up in the Rasputin camp in a way. And I don't give too much away.
- [46:33]
B
You gave away a lot.
- [46:34]
A
Well. And I don't actually know how it ends yet, but. But given that I've read, I don't know, 300 of the 400 pages, I feel strongly in recommending it. It's great. So, you know, if. If somehow that changes, I'll renounce it in a future podcast.
- [46:48]
B
Okay.
- [46:49]
A
But otherwise, I do recommend this book. So it's Rasputin Swims the Potomac by Ben Fountain.
- [46:53]
B
Awesome. All right, well, enjoy your time.
- [46:55]
A
All right, Hugo, thank you. At New York Knickerbockers. Thank you. You. Thank you. Thank you. Firewall is recorded at my bookstore, PNT Netware, located at 180 Orchard street on the lower east side of Manhattan. We'd love to hear from you with questions, feedbacks, or idea for a guest. Just email me at Bradleyirewall Media or find me on LinkedIn. And to keep up with what's on my mind and my latest writing, please follow my new substack@bradleytus.substack.com thanks again for listening.