How to beat impostor syndrome

Summary

Fixable Podcast Episode Summary

Podcast: Fixable
Episode: How to beat impostor syndrome
Date: September 15, 2025
Hosts: Anne Morriss and Frances Frei

---

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the pervasive workplace challenge of impostor syndrome. Drawing on their expertise as leading leadership coaches, Anne Morriss and Frances Frei discuss what impostor syndrome actually is, why it’s so common, its historical origins, and—true to the show’s mission—practical, actionable strategies to “fix” it. They also introduce the “cousins” or variants of impostor syndrome, equipping listeners to spot these patterns in themselves and others.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Understanding Impostor Syndrome

• Why Focus on Impostor Syndrome?
  • Anne: "Up to 80% of people experience imposter syndrome at some point in their life." (04:11)
  • The phenomenon is widespread and deeply impacts individuals’ confidence, leading to self-doubt, anxiety, and sometimes burnout.
• It’s Not a True Syndrome
  • Frances distinguishes impostor syndrome as a "distortion field," not a pathological illness.
    • Frances: "It isn’t some psychological illness that defines who we are in the world." (05:28)
• Origins of the Term
  • The “impostor phenomenon” was first described in 1978 by psychologists Pauline Clance and Suzanne Imes studying high-achieving women.
    • Anne: "There was this cognitive distortion that was a thread in the internal experience of these women." (06:37)
  • Today, the phenomenon is recognized as more common in women and people from underrepresented groups, but it can affect anyone.

Impostor Syndrome vs. Dunning-Kruger Effect

• Frances highlights the importance of perspective:
  • Some underestimate their abilities (impostor syndrome); others overestimate them (Dunning-Kruger effect).
    • Frances: "If we are underappreciating ourselves, there's another syndrome... where we overestimate our abilities." (07:54)
• Recognizing these are both unconscious distortions can help people move toward a more accurate self-assessment.

Recognizing Impostor Syndrome in Yourself

• Signs include persistent self-doubt, anxiety about being “found out,” and attributing success to external factors.
  • Anne: "If you are regularly experiencing self doubt, if there's a storyline that pops into your head in the form of anxiety about being found out..." (11:33)
• Suggestion: Ask trusted colleagues for their perspective on your self-assessment (10:13).

Fixing Impostor Syndrome: Strategies and Techniques

1. Tracking “In-the-Moment” Reality Check (Practical Data Recording)

• Keep a real-time record of your performance on whatever metrics matter to you throughout the week.
  • Frances: "If I do that for five days, by the end of a week, imposter syndrome can creep in. But if you let me open the book and say, what does the book say? Well, now there's no syndrome." (17:52)
• Real-time self-assessments are generally accurate; it’s only with time and distance that distortion increases.
• Score yourself soon after tasks or meetings—don’t let time pass, as memory will distort the truth.
  • Frances: "Time is not your friend. And the more time you spend in this distortion field…the more likely you are to believe that you're actually an imposter." (20:41)

2. Accountability Partners (Optional)

• If you find it helpful, score your performance with a colleague—but maintain “in-the-moment” immediacy (19:55).

3. Create Distance from Your Inner Critic

• Naming and dialoguing with your inner critic can help manage its influence.
  • Anne: "Figuring out what my relationship is to that voice...is a very empowering way to relate to this experience." (23:40)
• Approach the ‘impostor’ voice as one of many “parts”—borrowed from Dick Schwartz’s Internal Family Systems.

4. Reset Your Relationship with Failure

• Adopt a “growth mindset” and see setbacks as opportunities to learn—not evidence that you don’t belong.
  • Anne: "How do we treat setbacks as opportunities to learn, instead of [evidence] that I shouldn’t be in this room?" (23:52)

5. Accurate Leadership and Team Culture

• Leaders should foster environments of honest, learning-oriented feedback—focus on what’s real, not on perfection or caretaking.
  • Anne: "When I see leaders really creating environments where people like me...contribute more fully, they are creating a true learning environment..." (28:46)

---

The “Cousins” of Impostor Syndrome

(Adapted from Dr. Valerie Young’s research.)

Each cousin is a recognizable variant of impostor syndrome, coming with its own “lie” or cognitive distortion:

1. The Perfectionist (32:50)

• Sees only two states: flawless or failure, leading to avoidance of mistakes at all costs.
  • Frances: “The perfectionist thinks there are two states of nature, flawless or failure.” (33:17)
  • Anne: "It's more about escape from failure than pursuit of the perfect." (34:25)

2. The Soloist (35:50)

• Believes asking for help is a sign of weakness, insists on doing things alone.
  • Anne: "I cannot ask for help. Asking for help is a sign of weakness." (36:10)
  • Result: Mediocre performance ceiling due to isolation.

3. The Superhero (37:40)

• Measures self-worth by always working harder and doing more than others.
  • Frances: "By hook or by crook, they have to work harder than everyone else." (37:40)
  • Leads to burnout, “exhausted mediocrity,” and lack of strategic prioritization.

4. The Expert (40:20)

• Equates competence with knowing everything; values knowledge quantity over judgment or creativity.
  • Frances: "This is the person that is going to compete by having more knowledge on the topic than anyone else." (40:23)
  • Increasingly maladaptive in the age of AI and easy information access.

---

Memorable Quotes & Highlights

• Anne Morriss, on prevalence:

  “Up to 80% of people experience imposter syndrome at some point in their life.” (04:11)

• Frances Frei, on distortion:

  “I really do think a distortion field, at least that's what helps my brain understand it.” (05:28)

• Frances Frei, on self-perception:

  “If you are underappreciating yourself, there’s another syndrome, another distortion, that’s overappreciating themselves.” (07:54)

• Frances Frei, on the usefulness of in-the-moment assessments:

  “This blew my mind when we figured it out.” (16:16)

• Anne Morriss, on practical technique:

  “Let’s replace the story here with some actual data.” (19:13)

• Anne Morriss, on leadership:

  “Our job here is to be better tomorrow than we are today.” (29:37)

• Frances Frei, on accurate feedback:

  “We don’t distort reality to handle it. We just show reality. That's all people with impostor syndrome need." (31:10)

• Frances Frei, closing insight:

  “We've created a can do spirit to wanting to get out of imposter syndrome and a path to get out of it, which is it's a distortion from reality. And so that's all we have to do.” (42:10)

• Anne Morriss, challenging the term:

  “By the time 80% of us are experiencing it, it's a pretty normal experience of work and life... The sooner we can see it in ourselves, the sooner we can take action.” (43:29)

---

Notable Segment Timestamps

• [02:42] – Framing today’s topic: What is impostor syndrome, its cousins, and why it matters
• [04:05] – Prevalence and costs of impostor syndrome
• [05:28] – Definitional clarity and origins
• [07:54] – The opposite distortion: Dunning-Kruger Effect
• [11:33] – How to know if you’re experiencing impostor syndrome
• [15:20] – Start of practical strategies to fix it
• [17:52] – The “accurate record” technique explained
• [23:40] – The value of distancing from your inner critic
• [23:52] – Growth mindset in response to mistakes
• [28:46] – The leader’s role in supporting team members
• [32:50] – The “Cousins” explained: Perfectionist, Soloist, Superhero, Expert
• [42:10] – Reframing impostor syndrome as a fixable distortion, not a syndrome
• [43:29] – Final takeaways and encouragement

---

Key Takeaways

• Impostor syndrome is a highly common, but fixable, distortion in thinking—not a chronic psychological illness.
• The antidote is honest, in-the-moment self-assessment and cultivating a culture (or personal habit) of learning, feedback, and supportive self-dialogue.
• The “cousins” (Perfectionist, Soloist, Superhero, Expert) each offer clues to how impostor syndrome manifests differently, but all are rooted in attempts to protect ourselves—often with unintended negative effects.
• Normalize the experience: Most people have felt this way; you’re not alone or broken.
• Leaders can support others by fostering honest feedback, learning from mistakes, and modeling healthy self-assessment.

---

Final Thought

As Frances summarizes:

“If you have self diagnosed as impostor syndrome, I don’t want it to be your dirty little secret. You are in wonderful company… It’s ordinary enough that you don’t have to go to extraordinary lengths to overcome it.” (42:57)

And Anne adds:

“The sooner we can see it in ourselves, the sooner we can kind of take action… and bring people back to the safe raft of a healthy and honest relationship with our reality.” (43:29)

Transcript

[A]

Hello everyone. We heard you loud and clear that you wanted advice on a special topic, and we have some exciting news for you. We're now planning a series on Fixable to help you with your confidence at work, and we need your help to make it happen. What are your most pressing questions and problems when it comes to building and maintaining confidence in your job? Please give us a call at 234 Fixable. That's 234-349-2253 and let us know what's on your mind. We can't wait to hear from you.

[B]

This episode is sponsored by Visit Philadelphia. Philadelphia isn't just the birthplace of democracy. It's where big ideas still take center stage. TED and Visit Philadelphia are teaming up on a special series exploring what democracy looks like today through live events, personal stories, and conversations that reflect the power of community. Want to hear more and maybe be part of what's next? Visit visitphilly.comted to learn more. That's visitphilly.comted only boost mobile Boost Mobile.

[A]

Will give you a free year of service. Free year when you buy a new 5G phone.

[C]

New 5G phone?

[A]

Enough.

[C]

But I'm your hype man. When you purchase an eligible device, you get $25 off every month for 12 months with credits totaling one year of free service. Tax is extra for the device and service plan online only.

[A]

Did you know adults 60 plus lose more than $60 billion each year to financial exploitation? Green New Family Shield Plan empowers you to monitor your accounts for suspicious activity, protect yourself with up to $1 million identity theft coverage, and reassure loved ones that you're safe with location sharing and place alerts. Get peace of mind [e-mail] protect. That's greenlight.com protect. You are listening to Fixable, a podcast from Ted. I'm your host, Anne Morris. I'm a company builder and leadership coach.

[D]

And I'm your co host, Francis. I'm a Harvard Business School professor and I'm Ann's wife.

[A]

This is a show where we figure out how to fix things. Believing that you can fix them is a big part of getting there, which is also known as confidence. This is why we decided to focus on confidence as part of a special series this season. Last week we spoke to Dr. Ian Robertson about the science behind confidence. We got so much out of that conversation and we think you will too. So definitely check it out.

[D]

And we have additional great experts ahead, but we also want to hear your thoughts and your questions. So please keep calling and texting us at 23-4- FIXABLE. That's 234-349-2253. Or you can shoot us an [e-mail].

[A]

Frances, today it is just the two of us, and we're going to go deep on an aspect of confidence that we see trip a lot of people up, which is the phenomenon known as imposter syndrome. All right, Francis, this is how I propose we do this. I want to spend some time on what imposter syndrome is, because it's a phrase that people throw around all the time, and I think it's going to help us fix it to have a better understanding of what it is. And I want to fix it because this is fixable. And then I want us to talk about some of the cousins and variants of imposter syndrome, because it's going to help us spot it in ourselves and in other people. How does that sound?

[D]

I love this frame, Anne. Because it's an accurate diagnosis, yields a clever prescription, and we really do need an accurate diagnosis of imposter syndrome. And then we're gonna have some pretty clever prescriptions, including bringing the cousins to the table.

[A]

Yeah, that's what we're gonna get into today. We're gonna talk about imposter syndrome and also some of its close cousins, including the perfectionist.

[D]

In addition to the perfectionist, imposter syndrome's family tree includes the soloist, the superhero, and the expert. And we're going to invite all of them to this party.

[A]

All right, friends, we've got a lot to do today, so let's get right into it. Frances, just to get us started here, why is this a question that we care about? Why spend time on this one?

[D]

Oh, because it affects so many of us and it's fixable.

[A]

Totally. I saw some data when we were prepping for this show, credible data that said up to 80% of people experience imposter syndrome at some point in their life. Does that ring true to you?

[D]

It does. I mean, I think most people visit it occasionally, and some people are permanent.

[A]

Residents, and permanent residency is not free. So what's the cost of living with this?

[D]

Oh, my goodness. Yeah, so it's a pretty grave cost. It's like an internal game. There's loads of self doubt. It can eventually lead to burnout. It doesn't just stay on the job, it comes home with you, too. So it's a 24 7, 365 thing.

[A]

Well, maybe let's pull on that thread for a second because I find myself a little ambivalent about this word. Syndrome because it does feel like a temporary state. To your point that it's one of the challenges as we build our way to confidence is that sometimes we have a crisis of confidence. Sometimes there's this impostery energy that shows up. But it's not some kind of psychological illness that defines who we are in the world.

[D]

No, indeed it isn't. I really do think a distortion field, at least that's what helps my brain understand it. But we have a distorted view of reality. And I think by the end of this session today we're gonna be able to help loads of people overcome their distortion field. But I think it would help to go back to the origin of the word. So it was more than 50 years ago that two amazing psychologists, Pauline Clance and Suzanne Imez, they wrote a paper called the Imposter Phenomenon in High Achieving Women and that later got shortened to the Catchy Imposter Syndrome. So these two women found it, they didn't call it.

[A]

Did you see your title? Yeah, yeah.

[D]

Well, they didn't call it the Clance Emez Syndrome.

[A]

Right.

[D]

Which we're gonna later see was much more common at the time to name it after people. Instead they just identified the thing and then people started referring to the thing in a catchy way. So I think that that's the first thing is that this has been around for more than 50 years. It started with women in academia who were really high achieving, but they thought they weren't.

[A]

Yeah. The original paper that this pair of psychologists wrote in the 70s was the imposter phenomenon in High Achieving Women. And to your point, they talked to more than a hundred kick ass academics, all female, and they noticed that there was, I like your word, distortion. There was this cognitive distortion that was a thread in the internal experience of these women. And I think there's also good data around the fact that it, it can and does happen to anyone. It is more common in women. It's more common among people who are bringing difference into the workplace. Exes in Room full of Y's, you're more likely to see this, these kinds of questions. Should I be here? Do I deserve to be here? Are people going to find out that I shouldn't? Essentially, yeah.

[D]

If you're in the majority or in the center of power, while you can have imposter syndrome probabilistically, you're less likely to than if you are the less powerful or the more underrepresented.

[A]

Yeah. I do think these experiences are most clearly understood as distortions. And what's a distortion? It's a story we're telling ourselves about what's happening that diverges from reality. All right, so let's break it down.

[D]

Yeah. So I find that the first step that's helpful is to know that we are not the only distortion field in town and that there is another distortion field which is actually quite a bit more vibrant than ours. And that is where we overestimate our abilities vis a vis reality. So if we are underappreciating ourselves, there's another syndrome, another distortion, that's over appreciating themselves. It did not get a catchy name. This one was first identified in 1999 by two academics, and they called it after themselves. So they called it.

[A]

They were probably not experiencing imposter syndrome. They were not.

[D]

We don't know for sure, but I don't think so. And so in the landmark paper that introduced it, the. They also named it the Dunning Kruger effect after each of their last names.

[A]

So that's the opposite. Cognitive distortion. I'm overestimating my abilities in some way. Why do you find this so helpful when you are working with people on imposter syndrome? Because when we talk about this alternative reality.

[D]

Because one is. Because first of all, we all know people who are suffering the Dunning Kruger effect. They're in every meeting we're in. And I want people to realize, as you're unconsciously choosing to underestimate, there are other people that are unconsciously choosing to overestimate. Wouldn't it be better if we all chose to estimate accurately? And so sometimes it's easier to see it, to see the opposite in someone else, or be like, whoa, I'd like you to dial it back. Well, you know what? Whoa, I'd like you to dial it up.

[A]

Got it. And so we see that it is actually a choice, that it is actually a distortion when we kind of look at it through the mirror or whatever the right metaphor is here.

[D]

And I think I like to say unconscious choice because I'm not sure that people are deliberately choosing to do it. But after this session, you'll be deliberately choosing to continue doing it when we give you some alternatives.

[A]

Okay, well, let's focus on the 80%. If that's the 80 20, we're going to care about the 80% of us who have experienced imposter syndrome. How do I know if I am?

[D]

Good question.

[A]

Subject to this distortion field, I'm not.

[D]

Sure we can recognize it in ourselves accurately. But if you think you have imposter syndrome, you probably do. That's first number One. But anytime there's any self diagnosis, go to people who know you and love you and ask them. And you don't even have to use the word imposter syndrome. You can use the clinical definition. In the sea of distortions, do you get the sense that I am overestimating my accomplishments, underestimating, or I'm just right on target and see where people come out? I believe we are revealing it a lot more than to everyone else, but perhaps not to ourselves.

[A]

So let's talk to the 80% of people who have experienced this at some point in their lives. How do I know if I am distorting my reality in this way? What are some clues that I might be experiencing the symptoms of imposter syndrome?

[D]

I love this question because I almost never think about it. People come to me with a self diagnosis of imposter syndrome and I help them overcome it. I'm not sure that I've ever helped anyone diagnose it, but that's what you do with your coaching. So let me ask you.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, the clues are in the definition. So if you are regularly experiencing self doubt, if there's a storyline that pops into your head in the form of anxiety about being found out, if you are attributing your success entirely to factors that are outside of your control, I think these are clues that you might be subject to this kind of a distortion field that resonates because when people.

[D]

Have self diagnosed and they come and talk to me, they do indeed use that language.

[A]

Okay, after the break, Frances, we're going to get into this. We're going to move on to strategies on how you fix imposter syndrome.

[D]

I love the fixable part of any conversation.

[A]

Foreign this episode is brought to you by Ambetter Health. Group health insurance can put businesses in a tough position. If you're a business owner, a CFO or an HR leader, this is probably going to sound familiar. It's fall and you find out your group health insurance premium will be more expensive next year, maybe by a lot. And as usual, you have to pick one carrier and a few plans for for all of the employees. But they each have different medical needs, different budgets and different preferences for doctors. Plus, the carrier's network might not be strong where all employees live. Fortunately, there's a new approach. It's called an ichra or ichra. And it's a game changer. Ichras make costs predictable with stable pre tax contributions and a larger risk pool. And they make health plans personal because employees can buy Any plan that fits their needs from any carrier. You choose how much to contribute. They choose what works for them. It's about time, right? For coverage you control plan on an Ichra. Learn [e-mail] Ichra.

[D]

This episode is brought to you by Square. You know what makes a neighborhood feel like home? It's those special places that become extensions of our daily lives. For me, there's nothing quite like visiting my local coffee spot and neighborhood restaurant. These aren't just businesses, they're community anchors, where you bump into neighbors, where the barista knows your order, where first dates happen and business deals get made over lattes. These neighborhood gems, they're what make our communities thrive. When we show up and spend locally, that money stays in our neighborhood, supporting the people who make our area special.

[A]

Square is proud to Partner with over 4 million neighborhood businesses worldwide, helping them serve their communities better. Take this ad as an excuse to go support your favorite local spot and have yourself a day in the neighborhood. You can go to square.com go fixable to learn more. But before you do go support your favorite neighborhood spot, you'll be happy you did Square. See you in the neighborhood.

[B]

This episode is sponsored by Visit Philadelphia. Philadelphia isn't just the birthplace of democracy, it's where big ideas still take center stage. TED and Visit Philadelphia are teaming up on a special series exploring what democracy looks like today through live events, personal stories, and conversations that reflect the power of community. Want to hear more and maybe be part of what's next? Visit visitphilly.comted to learn more, that's visitphilly.com Ted.

[A]

Okay, I am anxious to fix this, so let's get into the things that you have seen work for people to break out of this false reality, essentially.

[D]

So I'll give one really practical technique to begin with, which is when we acknowledge that we are not seeing reality accurately. What we want to do is get an accurate portrayal of reality that we believe in, right? So what I want to do is substitute the mind games that are going on inside my head to distort things with an accounting of what's really going on so that I can at any point in time, choose to visit the mind gains in my head or go look at the accurate record. The cool thing about this is that we can keep an accurate record even though we are also subject to distortion fields. This blew my mind when we figured it out.

[C]

Blew my mind.

[A]

That's the heart of my question is how do we get over the fact that we're not reliable narrators when we're in this state, because we're not. Talk to me about an accurate record. Like what. What is the. What is the thing?

[D]

So the way to get an accurate record, even we distorters can give an accurate record if we do it in the moment. So I want us to create a record in the moment about how things are going. And what we have found is that we're pretty darn accurate. That is the objective performance and our subjective assessment are quite close to each other in the moment. It's only when the distance of time that we start feeling like we're frauds and the other things that you said. So what I recommend is let's have a technique, a template that we fill out in a regular basis that's easy to access in the moment. So, for example, let's say that I wanted to solve imposter syndrome in a week. I could imagine having a record each day on whatever performance metrics matter to me. And I'm gonna give myself grades real time on those performance metrics maybe once a day, maybe once in the afternoon, once in the morning, maybe once an hour. And I'm gonna give myself an assessment. It's gonna turn out, it's gonna be very close to accurate. If I do that for five days, by the end of a week, imposter syndrome can creep in. That is if you just. Without my record, if you just asked me, I could have all of that syndrome. But, but if you let me open the book and say, what does the book say? Well, now there's no syndrome. And so it's. So that's.

[A]

Yeah, so let me just use an example. So I'm in a typical office and I feel this creep in often in a meeting setting, for example. And so I'm just going to grade myself on my contribution to meetings for an entire week. Is that an example of what you're talking about?

[D]

That's an example of what we're talking about.

[A]

And I'm grading quality of contribution in the meeting. And so the meeting ends and I just jot this down in a notebook. And then your point is. And I know I want to describe it in detail because I've seen you work with. And it blows my mind that this.

[D]

And it works, right? It blows your mind that this simple technique works.

[A]

And it really does. So I really want to give people just a like really clear access to using it. What you are saying is one of the reason it works is because if you asked me at the end of the week, how did you do on contributions to meaning you're gonna say terrible. You know, because I cannot be trusted. Right. I'm subject to this syndrome, but in real time, like, if we're fast enough, we can outrun it. We can outrun it.

[D]

In fact, you'll have, instead of one data point that you're inferior, you're Gonna actually have 40 data points that's gonna show. Now, I don't know if you were good in meetings or not, but if you were, they'll be disproportionately good. And if you were bad in meetings, they'll be disproportionately bad. What I can say is they'll be accurate, whereas you. Your weekly assessment is going to be inaccurate.

[A]

Got it. You're really solving for the distortion part of cognitive distortion. You're like, okay, let's replace the story here with some actual data and start to pull our minds out of this.

[D]

And what was an amazing finding for us is we used to go through such laborious processes to get the data, and we found that even the distortionists could accurately collect data if they did it in the moment. And that has just made this like a DIY project now, like, we can get over imposter syndrome on our own.

[A]

Do you recommend, like, an accountability partner here? Should I be scoring this with someone else? Can that be useful?

[D]

I think if you find yourself to be a more accurate scorer with someone else, do it. But it's gotta be in the moment. So don't violate the in the moment to get a really good companion.

[A]

Got it.

[D]

So you could imagine two people that both subject. That you know are both subject to the distortion, and you're in a lot of similar meetings. You'd be pretty good buddies.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. All right. So you can find a friend here.

[D]

Yeah. Just don't violate the. Don't. Don't let the time elapse because nothing can save us for the distortion field then.

[A]

Right? Okay. So you can phone a friend here, is what you're saying.

[D]

I'd like you to be sitting next to them already, but yes.

[A]

Got it. And you want. You want no time.

[D]

I really don't.

[A]

Because you want to keep every moment close. Yeah, I get that.

[D]

Every moment.

[A]

I get that. Time is not your friend. And the more time you spend in this distortion field where you're constantly questioning yourself, the more likely you are to believe that you're actually an imposter. Have you ever experienced imposter syndrome?

[D]

I don't think so.

[A]

Yeah, I think you're in the 20%.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

I think you're in the 20%. This creeps up on me, like, all the time without realizing it. Like little pieces of it.

[D]

No, in fact, if anything, little pieces.

[A]

Of the syndrome, like, float into my cognitive field.

[D]

If anything, I've never.

[A]

I feel like you're part of this kind of rare 20%. Why not?

[D]

Well, let me first.

[A]

You're like a female academic. You're in, like, the high risk. You're in this high risk category.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, this is rampant in academia.

[D]

Yeah. So. Well, the first one is, if you ask me, which one am I likely to experience? Dunning Kruger imposter syndrome. It's Dunning Kruger. Let's be honest. And, you know, my, like, pick in a gender camp. Go one or the other. I don't get to pick. But I'm not. It's, you know, if the ladies all experience it, doesn't mean I always experience it.

[A]

Let's be honest.

[D]

Let's be honest.

[A]

These categories are fuzzy.

[D]

Yeah, they're very fuzzy. But I do think that in my distortion field, the longer away I am from something, I tend to put more of a halo on it. So I do think I have a dunning. I think I'm very objective with distance. But I do with distance, it just gets better. It's like how I interpret silence as applause. Other people interpret silence as concern.

[A]

So here are other categories I have seen work, and I'm wondering if they resonate with you. So one is this whole category. We've talked about this before in the show. Creating some healthy distance from that inner critic. I love Dick Schwartz's work on internal family systems. I find it so liberating. It's really fun. Let's name the critic. Let's invite them into the meeting. Let's kick them out. Let's talk them down. Let's get them out of the driver's seat. I find the metaphor just wonderful, delightful, and it feels very actionable to me. One of the problems with the word syndrome is it suggests this kind of very black and white, like you're in it or you're not in it. Sometimes this voice pops up and starts yelling at me. Sometimes it's quieter. Sometimes I listen, sometimes I don't. Like. It is a much. It's a much more fluid, much more variable, much kind of grayer situation than the word syndrome suggests. And figuring out what my relationship is to that voice and realizing that I have a relationship to that voice, that this is not necessarily, you know, my highest and best self, that is yapping in these moments. I find that a very Empowering way to relate to this experience.

[D]

Yeah. What I would say to that is that your solution is the solution for people that live an examined life. My solution is for everyone else.

[A]

All right, so let me give you two more categories.

[D]

I look forward to it.

[A]

One, I think is resetting your relationship with failure. So this is maybe less examined life and more Carol Dweck growth mindset. How do we treat setbacks as opportunities to learn? Instead of the opposite data exercise that you described, which is data that I shouldn't be in this room, I shouldn't be in this job. I don't deserve to be here. Which is kind of the default data exercise we're doing. And then when something goes wrong or when I screw up, as I inevitably do, then it gets. It gets filtered through my brain as, see, I told you so. You didn't deserve this position.

[D]

So I do think how we respond to failure, even small folks. Failure in the meeting. I didn't use the right words. You know, just whatever the small F failure is. I do think if we do it with curiosity about how I might do it better next time versus judgment. Oh my gosh. I didn't achieve. I bet the judgy version of us like widens the imposter syndrome. It makes the distortion field wider.

[A]

Yeah. And I think this is where I experience you and I on being on the other side of this line. If this is a. Yeah. If this is a spectrum.

[D]

Oh, it's a two by two. We got a 45 degree angle dotted line. We got the whole graphic.

[A]

But something, you know, a meeting won't go well or I'm aware of a mistake in a meeting and it will hit me harder than you. Like it would never occur to you that it was because you were not supposed to be in meeting. That would be such an absurd conclusion.

[D]

Because I can accurately tell if it's a pebble or a boulder. And you will sometimes mistake pebbles for boulders.

[A]

100%. I think that's. It's also. I love our dear colleagues, Amy Edmondson's work and her recent book, the Right Kind of Wrong. I think, you know, directionally, most people have an unhealthy relationship with failure and mistakes. And so I think this book was such a gift in such a public.

[D]

Service, such a gift.

[A]

And one of the things I love is that she complicates. There are different kinds of mistakes, but we bring the same emotional reaction to even the good mistakes, even the great mistakes that teach us things about ourselves that are on the path to innovation. We need to Be out there making a lot of good mistakes in order to make progress as a species. But we have such an aversion to failure that we are getting in our own way. Yeah.

[D]

She's the perfect messenger for the two dimensionality of. There's, like, success and failure. And you can shoot happy face, frowny face. She's like, no, no. There are some types of failure that are at least as good as success. Yeah.

[A]

It's mind blowing for people.

[D]

It's mind blowing. It's mind blowing and true. And once you accept that.

[A]

Yeah. That sound effect right there, that was Frances mind being blown.

[D]

And once you. That you're like, oh, my gosh. Well, I want to get to those as quickly as possible. Mm.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. It's a really cool book. We recommend it to everyone.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Francis, let's say I'm leading a team, and I observe someone on my team who is kind of subject to these kinds of thoughts and storylines. Is there anything I can do as a leader or manager to be helpful to that person?

[D]

So here's a classic example of that. In the classroom at hbs, when students first arrive on campus and they were high achievers before they got to campus, they all initially judge themselves with, did I get the right answer? That we came up with at the end of class? But that is not the metric you should use for the people that opened the class. We still got 80 minutes to travel open for class. It's did I get everyone else to want to engage in it in a productive way? Not that I get the right answer. In fact, probabilistically, if you got the right answer, we're not teaching that case next year.

[A]

That's not a good class, actually.

[D]

That's not a good class. So you have to judge yourself based on the time of doing it. But when people arrive on campus, they just think, did I get the right answer or not? And don't control for how long. How long we are into the discussion.

[A]

Yeah. Like when you. And when you have, I think, worked with me on this without even. Maybe even realizing it or labeling it imposter syndrome, you know, what I have appreciated is you are always solving for. Let's look clearly at the situation. Let's reach an accurate conclusion. So when you find me in my feelings and kind of open to this conversation, you're not coming to say, don't you know, you're not coming to take care of me necessarily, or protect me from those feelings or tell me that I shouldn't be feeling things or that everything's great?

[D]

Just giving you a snapshot of reality.

[A]

So let's talk about reality. And I know you're feeling bad and there may be a reason to feel bad, but let's look at the column of where we made progress, where we stumbled, what we could learn. And when I see leaders really creating environments where people like me kind of get over these self distracting thoughts and contribute more fully, they are creating a true learning environment that includes a healthy relationship with setbacks, which is not that, oh, you're never going to make a mistake, but when you make a mistake, what did we learn? Can we make that learning infectious? Our job here is to be better tomorrow than we are today. You know, it is building that kind of culture where I think we really set people up for success on this one.

[D]

Yeah. And what I notice when I interact with you because you do sometimes have the, this distortion field after some meetings. And I never know what's going to trigger it. It's not the volume of good and bad, it's something triggered the distortion field for you.

[A]

I don't totally know what gets that bitch out of her seat.

[D]

No. And maybe, yeah, maybe we should start paying attention so we can see it in the moment. I don't know either because I'm always surprised when I'm.

[A]

Say that again for my mother. So you don't have to use bad language. I don't know what gets that inner critic out of her seat. I don't know.

[D]

I don't either. It's always a surprise to me. It's always a surprise. But if what I do with you, which is a very high performing person with a wildly high probability of success but with occasional pebbles in the way. But you distort pebbles to boulders. I don't do anything to distort pebbles from being pebbles. I don't pretend they don't exist. I talk about them as the pebbles and I talk about all of the accelerants that happened and then you get an accurate report card and then you're. And then you let go of it. So I think it's important that we don't distort reality to handle it. We just show reality. That's all people with imposter syndrome need is an accurate view of reality.

[E]

Popsicles, sprinklers, a cool breeze. Talk about refreshing. You know what else is refreshing this summer? A brand new phone with Verizon.

[A]

Yep.

[E]

Get a new phone on any plan with select phone. Trade in and MyPlan and lock down a low price for three years on any plan with MyPlan. This is a deal for everyone whether you're a new or existing customer. Swing by Verizon today for our best phone deals. 3 year price guarantee applies to then current base monthly rate only. Additional terms and conditions apply for all offers only.

[A]

Boost Mobile Boost Mobile will give you a free year of service. Free year when you buy a new 5G phone.

[C]

New 5G phone.

[A]

Enough.

[C]

But I'm your hype man. When you purchase an eligible device, you get $25 off every month for 12 months with credits totaling one year of free service. Taxes extra for the device and service plan online only. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[A]

Welcome back. We have defined imposter syndrome. We have figured out how to fix it. And we are going to set ourselves up to spot it more precisely in ourselves and other people. So we're going to do this by meeting the cousins, the variants of imposter syndrome. This is some of Dr. Valerie Young's terrific work and Prince, I want to just one by one here. So start us off with the perfectionist.

[D]

Yeah, I think the most prominent cousin of imposter syndrome is the perfectionist. And now could be super common. Yeah, super common. And it could be someone who has imposter syndrome or someone else that you're going to observe it in. But it's the perfectionist and the perfectionist, if I can summarize it in the crispest way possible, the perfectionist thinks there are two states of nature, flawless or failure.

[A]

Yes. Yep.

[D]

What a debilitating way to go through the world. Its own distortion field. And right now I'm gonna be like, oh my gosh, there are all these distortions. Now wouldn't we like to sprinkle magic dust on the person who thinks there are two states in the world, flawless or failure, and make that evaporate. Because the quest for flawless is gonna take all day and you're gonna get nothing else done. You're unlikely to achieve it, but for sure you're unlikely to accomplish anything else.

[A]

What I think people get wrong about perfectionism is, is it is more about escape from failure than pursuit of the perfect. Because the. It presents as pursuit of the perfect, but the, the cognitive distortion is that mistakes and failure are going to reveal that I don't belong here. Right it's that mis. It's that mistakes are so costly that I'm going to avoid them, use all of my energy to avoid them, cover them up, keep other people from them. Pretend that gravity doesn't apply to me.

[D]

Yeah, I love the. It's an escape from failure, because that's indeed what it is. If you think there are two states to the world, flawless or failure, you're gonna try to be flawless so that you are not a failure by any means necessary. By any means necessary. And almost always it's way too laborious. And so you will, as a perfectionist, accomplish so much less in the world than other people that are unburdene by that binary and see it much more as a continuum. And realize that worrying about which font you selected for the paper that you submitted isn't going to matter. But you could spend a month sorry, but one could spend a month thinking about that. And you know what, everyone else that.

[A]

You'Re competing against good fonts and bad fonts. And that is a black and white world that I will live in and die on.

[D]

Okay, well, while people who are inefficiently doing that, you know what the rest of us are doing? Inventing fire.

[A]

No, I know, I know. And getting feedback. Getting early feedback. Getting feedback. And this is a phenomenon back to our women in academia. This is a phenomenon that you have observed from the beginning of your career that this perfectionist instinct would lead women academics.

[D]

So it took so much longer to.

[A]

Take so much longer in writing the paper. Meanwhile, the men were putting stuff out there, getting feedback, co producing better results and really learning. And the women were denying themselves that opportunity.

[D]

Which leads us to the second cousin, and the second cousin is the soloist. And so in the example you just had, the women are doing it alone in their quest for perfection. And the men are not going it alone in their quest for good enough in their quest for. This is a publishable paper and the.

[A]

Flawed story here is I cannot ask for help. Asking for help is a sign of weakness. Again, it will reveal that I don't belong here.

[D]

And so to your escapist thing, that's exactly right. I'm escaping the weakness associated with help, which is. I don't even wanna call that a distortion. It's just baldly incorrect. I don't know a single person of great accomplishment that got it without help. Not a single one. So you.

[A]

In fact, the pattern is even stronger that the people we see like continuously rise in organizations are. They truly excel at asking for help.

[D]

And creating shameless shameless and creating ecosystems that could help. And just think about it. You alone are going to compete against me and all the people I can galvanize to help me. What is the probability you have of winning? I'm going to round it off to zero. So the problem with the soloist is that you will have such a mediocre ceiling that you can achieve in the world. And that's so sad because you had all of the raw materials to get there.

[A]

And this comes at a huge cost to organizations because people, in addition to people not being so far away from the frontier of what they can contribute, problems just don't get escalated at the right time. And learning it doesn't become infectious.

[D]

In fact, if I said to you, would you rather have a team of soloists or a team of team players?

[A]

Give me a more mediocre team than a bunch of fantastic soloists. All right, tell us about the superhero.

[D]

This is one where it's. The person has the mistaken impression that what they're bringing to the table is effort. And so by hook or by crook, they have to work harder than everyone else. So this is the person who secretly goes to the gym. This is the person who secretly stays late. This is the person who. Who in secret exhausts themselves doing all of these, putting in all of this extra time. Again, I think probably as a soloist when they're doing it, but they're putting in the extra hours as if there is a participation trophy. And once you get out of Little League, there are no more participation trophies. But the superhero is acting like there is a participation trophy and that if I work harder, I win, and it's just not true.

[A]

Yeah, the lie here. I mean, I love the kind of what's the lie in all these.

[D]

I like that frame too.

[A]

Yeah. The lie here is that in order to prove my value, I have to go above and beyond constantly. The individual cost is kind of self evident, maybe. We've talked a lot about burnout in the show and at the group level, I think when this becomes normalized, obviously those costs, the costs of burnout and risks of all these stuff go up. But there's also this phenomenon of exhausted mediocrity. There's no strategic prioritization. There's no sense of this task is more important than this other. It's all like we're just going to out effort. We're going to out all the time on all the things. Yeah, yeah.

[D]

And this try harder mentality, you're not going to win against anyone of consequence. And they're gonna have a better Life. Because if you want to think great ideas, you have to be well rested and well nourished and well exercised. Well, the person who's competing on effort, they have let those things go long ago. So I would say that it's the superhero thinks the only way they can compete is with the participation trophy of effort. And I have yet to meet a person for who. Whom that's actually true. And the tragedy is they're covering up the really good stuff in the panic to get the thing that they think matters and it doesn't.

[A]

Yeah, we hear that from so many leaders that, oh, I got here by working harder. For sure, you worked hard, but you.

[D]

First of all know you didn't. There's always people that are working harder than you. Always.

[A]

But that's not your true superpower.

[D]

And that's not your superpower. I want you to get here by being in peak condition. I mean, what do we know about the always on. Yeah, they never win. They never win.

[A]

All right, close us out with the expert.

[D]

Yeah, so I think expert is a sibling of the superhero on this part, which is, instead of working harder, this is the person that is going to compete by having more knowledge on the topic than anyone else. So they're the encyclopedia in the room.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

They're just going to have more details, more knowledge, more accessible stuff as opposed to more judgment, more creativity. They're going to have more of the hard knowledge. This one, I think, is also as problematic as the others. If I think in the age of AI, which one of these is likely to go away? It's that one. Because that AI just makes that a laughable positioning. So I do think this one is going to dissipate over time. But certainly up until now, we all know the person who thinks, oh, well, then that means, you know, blah, blah, blah, they had to take time to get blah, blah, blah. And they're putting all that blah, blah, blah in their head. And we can only fit so much in our head. I'm always like, oh, my gosh, imagine if you didn't have to store that, you know, what we could be putting in that beautiful mind.

[A]

But, yeah, so. But it's the lie. It's the lie. It's a similar lie to the other, to its cousins, which is, I have to know. I mean, all of these are lies that are supposed to keep us safe that ironically make us more vulnerable. Right. But this one is I have to know everything in order to prove my value.

[D]

And if I don't.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

If I don't know something and again, it's. And you can see it's also why we call them cousins, because you're more likely to go it alone. Cause if you really didn't think you had to go it alone, you wouldn't think you had to know everything.

[A]

So why, let me ask you this. Why is it worth it? Why is this pattern helpful to us?

[D]

Yeah. Because by the time we go through all of these, everyone is nodding with either I've experienced it or I know others that experienced it. And these aren't good places to be. So now let's return to imposter syndrome. You know what we've done? We've created a can do spirit to wanting to get out of imposter syndrome and a path to get out of it, which is it's a distortion from reality. And so that's all we have to do. We don't have to overcome a lie. We're just distorting reality. So we're gonna now get back in touch with reality.

[A]

Yep. Love it. So we're gonna wrap this up here. I like that we have a vocabulary now. Cause we're gonna be able to return to it again and again in this season. What do you want people to take away from this conversation?

[D]

If you have self diagnosed as imposter syndrome, I don't want it to be your dirty little secret. You are in wonderful company. I mean, wonderful company. And a number one, b number two, it's ordinary enough that you don't have to go to extraordinary lengths to overcome it. So don't think about it only at 2 in the morning. Think about it at 2 in the afternoon when we can use really practical steps to overcome it.

[A]

Yeah, I love that. I want to challenge this word syndrome just because by the time 80% of us are experiencing it, it's a pretty normal experience of work and life and it comes and goes, you know. And so the sooner we can see it in ourselves, the sooner we can kind of take action to expose the lie. And to your point, replace it with something that is closer to the truth. And then the sooner we can spot it in other people, the faster we can intervene and bring people back to the safe raft of a healthy and honest relationship with our reality.

[D]

I love the safe raft. And when Pauline and Suzanne wrote about it, they called it the imposter phenomenon. And when Dunning and Kruger found the opposite, they called it an effect. I don't know who actually first called it a syndrome, but they didn't do us any favors.

[A]

Yeah, I'm going to refer to it as the imposter experience. That's how I'm going to call it.

[D]

I love it.

[A]

That's how I'm going to refer to it going forward. The experience of feeling like an imposter. All right, Frances, that is our show. Will you read us out?

[D]

Thank you so much for listening. Please send us any and all questions you have about confidence at work. We love the topic and it's fixable. It's also okay if you have other questions in addition to confidence. We want to help you solve those problems too, so please keep reaching out. Send us a message, email, call, or text [e-mail] 234 Fixable that's 234-349-2253.

[A]

Fixable is a podcast brought to you by Ted and Pushkin Industries. It's hosted by me, Anne Morris and me, Frances Fry. This episode was produced by Rahima Nasser. Our team includes Constanza Gallardo, Banban Chang, Michelle Quint, Daniela Baloraiso and Roxanne Hylash.

[D]

Our show is mixed by Louis at Storyyard.

[B]

This episode is sponsored by Visit Philadelphia. Philadelphia isn't just the birthplace of democracy, it's where big ideas see still take center stage. TED and Visit Philadelphia are teaming up on a special series exploring what democracy looks like today through live events, personal stories and conversations that reflect the power of community. Want to hear more and maybe be part of what's next? Visit visitphilly.comted to learn more. That's visitphilly.comted popsicles, sprinklers, a cool breeze.

[E]

Talk about refreshing. You know what else is refreshing this summer? A brand new phone with Verizon.

[A]

Yep.

[E]

Get a new phone on any plan with select phone, trade in in MyPlan and lock down a low price for three years on any plan with MyPlan. This is a deal for everyone whether you're a new or existing customer. Swing by Verizon today for our best phone deals. 3 year price guarantee applies to then current based monthly rate only. Additional terms and conditions apply for all offers.

[C]

Pura brings smart fragrance and function together. Premium scents, smart app control and sleek design. And here's the best part. Your first set of fragrances is free. Hurry to pura.com now and upgrade your home today.