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- [00:01]
Edith Zimmerman
This episode is supported by Harvard Business School Executive Education. Their programs create powerful connections for leaders around the world, strengthening both organizations and individuals by deepening existing relationships and fostering new ones. Participants leave with lifelong friends, new potential business partners, and a powerful globe spanning network of fellow change makers. Learn more at HBS Me Learn.
- [00:26]
Ann
That's HBS Me Learn.
- [00:30]
Interviewer
This podcast is brought to you by wise, the app for international people using money around the Globe. With the WISE account, you can send, spend and receive in over 40 currencies with no markups and no hidden fees. Whether you're sending pounds across the pond, spending rials in Rio, or getting paid in dollars for your side gig, you'll get the mid market exchange rate on every transaction. Plus most transfers arrive in less than 20 seconds. Join 15 million customers internationally. Be Smart, Get Wise Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com Ts and Cs apply.
- [01:13]
Ann
Hey listeners, Ann here. Today we're sharing an episode of a podcast we think you'll love. It's been handpicked by the TED staff and we think as a fixable listener, you'll come away with a fresh idea and a totally new perspective. Enjoy and head to the link in the description for more.
- [01:34]
Chris Duffy
You're listening to how to Be a Better Human. I am your host, Chris Duffy. Today on the show we are talking with the New Yorker cartoonist, writer and artist Edith Zimmerman. We're talking about honesty, vulnerability and creativity. Edith is one of my favorite artists because her work is so funny and personal, but also imaginative and approachable. Her style is distinct but impressionistic and what she draws is often the topics that she's wrestling with in her day to day life. So things like sobriety or parenting or figuring out her creative and personal ambitions, it's all very relatable stuff. And this conversation is also part of our newest video series, which means that I got to go meet Edith in person at her house in upstate New York to record this interview. And we also filmed Edith and me running together discussing what it was like for her to stop drinking and her drawing a hilarious caricature of my face. All of which you can see online at Ted's YouTube channel. I think the video is really a fun and cool compliment because after you listen to this episode you can see what Edith's art and what her life look like. So listen to this then check out that video. But first, let's get started with Edith.
- [02:44]
Edith Zimmerman
Well, I drew as a kid and then I took a bunch of art classes in college. I did a lot of portraiture I want to say hyper realistic, but it's just like trying to be regular realistically. Nothing special. And they were all very careful. I really liked doing portraits with pencil. And there was just a lot of erasing and erasing and just, like, layering and layering and careful, careful, careful, careful. And it was good. I was pretty good at it. I did, like, some really good portraits. By the time I graduated, I was going to be a double major with English and studio art, but I didn't. Cause I was like, am I gonna, like, draw for a living? Which actually sort of like, sounds like a joke now, but I think it was, like, totally reasonable. So then when I started drawing again more recently, I started with pen. Cause I didn't wanna go back to the, like, extremely careful drawing. Like, I hope I don't get it wrong. It's like, I'm gonna get it wrong right out of the bat. And that's just like, that's gonna be okay. And I did these, like, really rudimentary stick figures. And, like, my drawing's still, like, bad. I mean, you've seen. Sometimes they come out kind of charming. Sometimes they're just, like, absurdly bad. And you're just like, oh, sorry. You're like. You're calling yourself an artist. Okay. All right. That's cool. Yeah, that was sort of part of it. It's like. Yeah, you just sort of, like, commit to the bit. But I just started drawing stick figures or, like, ball heads with, like, little necks and, like, circle eyes. And then I just kept doing and kept doing, and, like, slowly it evolved. And now I feel like I have a style, but it's like, none of it was conscious. It's just sort of, like, the way it comes out naturally and then plus, like, how you keep refining it.
- [04:17]
Chris Duffy
We're gonna take a quick break, but we will be back with more from Edith in just a moment. Don't go anywhere. And we are back. We're talking with Edith Zimmerman about sobriety, creativity, and what it takes to create a life where you can be honest, vulnerable, and healthy.
- [04:45]
Edith Zimmerman
Hi, I'm Edith Zimmerman. I'm a writer and artist. I live in upstate New York, and I send out a newsletter called Drawing Links.
- [04:52]
Interviewer
So one thing that I. When I think about your work is your work is really honest. And I'm curious, have you always been good at being honest with yourself?
- [05:03]
Edith Zimmerman
Um, no. I mean, that's a tricky question, because, like, you think I'm being really honest, right? Like, there's all these much deeper pockets that I'm like, geez, Are we really getting into this? So in the stuff that you've probably read, like, a lot of the comics are pulled from my journal. So it's like, I wake up in the morning and I do this journal every day, and I do comics about, like, whatever from the day before stands out to me. And then, like, weeks later, I'll go back and look at it and publish some of it. Because, like, for whatever reason, I just, like, want to share parts of it. Like, I still not really sure, but it's like, this compulsion, and I just want to share it. Because sometimes I'm like, oh, I got something just right. Or I did. I don't know. Something just worked. But I go through and I, like, reread my own journal entries. And sometimes I'm like, oh, yeah, this is really good. Or I like this. Or other times I'm like, oh, my God, I can't. This is horrible. So it, like, sort of informs how I make journal entries in the future.
- [05:56]
Interviewer
It's really interesting because I think that that's a lot of what I want to talk about. Right. Is like, kind of that compulsion to share. How do you find the line where. Between, like, something where you're like, I want this to be out there versus something that you don't want to be out there.
- [06:07]
Edith Zimmerman
Well, it feels very important that it be true, which I feel. Which is, like, the honesty, therefore, is, like, imperative. And sometimes there's stuff that's honest, but it's, like, ugly. And I'm like, I'm not going to share that. Or, like, it doesn't make me look good. It's like, I want it to be real and to kind of come across as the way I experienced it and to be flattering to other people. Cause, like, I'm never. I, like, really try not to portray anybody in a negative light. Like, I'll kind of, like, rant privately, but I'll never. I try not to publish anything negative about anybody.
- [06:37]
Interviewer
So I journal every day, too. I have a friend who journals every day, and then they destroy what they journaled. Like, some. I think they used to, like, literally burn the pages that they wrote, and now they journal electronically and then just.
- [06:49]
Edith Zimmerman
Delete, and they just delete.
- [06:50]
Interviewer
And they're, like, a huge proponent of this.
- [06:52]
Edith Zimmerman
Okay.
- [06:53]
Interviewer
That's not how I do it.
- [06:54]
Edith Zimmerman
Yeah.
- [06:54]
Interviewer
Because I want to preserve the things that I'm experiencing. But I sometimes wonder, like, am I journaling for me or am I journaling for an audience? And who is that audience? And I wonder how that's changed it for you if you literally are doing it for an audience.
- [07:08]
Edith Zimmerman
Yeah, well, that's kind of like the crux of, well, one issue for me. I mean, so I started this journal. The journaling was just regular writing. And then I was starting a second journal where I was doing just drawings. And eventually the writing and the drawings became like, journal comics that I do every day and every so often. I was like, man, these three panels came out in a way that really pleased me. And so I started a private Instagram account just to, like, my 23 friends that I, like, manually signed up for it. I was like, I just want to show you guys this moment because I think I was really lonely or something, or I was going through sort of a rough whatever. Like, I just wanted to. They were just little snippets. It would just come out just right. Anyway, so I was sharing it on Instagram, and then that kind of snowballed. And eventually I, like, I was letting anyone who knew me follow me if they requested it. And then I put all those comics in a newsletter instead of on Instagram, and it got recommended places like, other people were kind of promoting it. And then it started to get, like, bigger and bigger. I mean, it's not, like, huge or anything, but it got big enough. And then I was like, I'm gonna charge money for it. This will be my job. I'm gonna get. Like, I'll support my. With my cartoons. Like, this is a dream. And I just have to live my life and then write these little charming stories about it. But the money stuff didn't really work out the way I thought it was going to. Cause I had this goal I wanted to hit, and then I just didn't get there in the time I thought I was gonna get there. And also, I had a certain amount of savings that I was using to get to this place. And then it just wasn't. It was really disappointing. And meanwhile, this is my real life. I'm sharing real stories from my life. But this, like, it sort of caught up with me. The way I visualize it is, like, it sounds kind of cheesy, but it's like the tide. Like, you're kind of running with the water a little bit. And, like, are you being real or are you making stuff up to share with people? Like, are you thinking about what people are gonna think when they see this? Or are you really just sharing your private thoughts with yourself and your journal? And it helped to have some distance between the two. But eventually, with this sort of first iteration of the newsletter, I found I was sitting down. I had kind of run out of stories. But I knew I was supposed to post something in my newsletter because there were people who were paying for it. And it's like, you know, you hear people being like, yeah, it's okay. It can come out whenever. Like, the people who are supporting you, they, like, they just want to know they're supporting you. I'm like, yeah, but this is a product I'm creating. Like, I told people I was gonna send it, like, X amount of times a week or once a week or whatever. Like, I just haven't sent it for two weeks. Like, this is a problem anyway. And I'd be sitting down, like, okay, I have to write a charming story about my life that people are gonna love. Like, they loved the one about the. That one was cute. So don't write about how you're mad at your husband. Or don't write about. Or don't. Da, da, da. Anyway, so it just started to. Was difficult, and I refunded everybody. I just kind of shut off the newsletter and I refunded everybody and just quit, kind of. And I kept doing the Journal. I just didn't publish for two years. And then, I mean, I was just doing it privately for myself. And then I restarted it last fall just because I felt like there was some distance and I wanted to do it. And I had this whole new business idea for myself, which was that I would not ask people to pay for the newsletter. I would instead use it as an advertising device for my other realm, like my greeting cards and my art prints. Because I was like, oh, I'm gonna take myself seriously as an artist. People will buy my art. Like, that's what I want. I don't want them to subscribe to my stories. I want them to buy my art. Because I'm an artist now. So the version of the newsletter now is I write the Journal stuff, and then two months later, I look through it and I publish stuff. And that has seemed like enough of a cushion that I can maintain the integrity of just journaling for myself and kind of silence the voice that's like, well, what's gonna be a good story for your fans? And I find myself writing something, and it's like, kind of. I'm like, I could never publish this. What's the point of even following this thread? It's like, well, it's important. I have to just get this out. I have to just write whatever comes out.
- [11:12]
Interviewer
It seems like there's these threads of honesty and creativity, and then also Vulnerability and figuring out what the right level of those each is for you, especially when something is public. Cause I think that even when you're describing, I didn't feel like this was right, so I stopped doing it entirely. I refunded everyone. That's kind of, to me, like, being honest with yourself, like, this is how I'm feeling, and this is not sustainable. Have there been times in your life where you were. It was harder for you to be honest with yourself?
- [11:47]
Edith Zimmerman
The first thing that comes to mind is like, I drank really heavily for a really long time, and I was. I knew it was too much and a problem for me, but I was like, yeah, but, like, it's the only thing I like, so I'm not gonna, like, stop drinking. It's like, even though it's clearly ruining my life, it's also the only thing I enjoy doing. So, like, what am I supposed to do here? I feel like maybe I come across as really honest, but I think there's been times in my life where there's just like, entire situations that I can't even look at. And only later can I be like, okay, eventually I was able to be honest about them, but in the moment, they're just, like, way too big. And I don't even know. Like, maybe I'm going through one of them now and I can't. Not to be, like, mysterious, but it's like sometimes you just can't even look at it. But anyway, so I was like, a very, I don't know, like, medium problematic drinker for, like, kind of a long time. Like, for probably, like seven years. I knew I was like, this is not good, but, like, I can't really handle this right now because I'm just, like, not equipped. And then, like, one day I was. And then I stopped drinking.
- [12:49]
Interviewer
But you've also been really public about sobriety and also, like, about creating a space not just for yourself, but for other people to write about sobriety and to talk about it.
- [12:58]
Edith Zimmerman
I write now. I do illustrations for a newsletter about sobriety. And I've, like, published stories about sobriety.
- [13:03]
Interviewer
I just think, like, for myself, I also don't drink. And sometimes I feel like it's hard to claim sobriety. Not because I drink or do drugs still, but it's like, because I didn't have, like, a dramatic rock bottom moment. Like, I feel like I don't drink and I like myself more. And there's all sorts of reasons why I am sober now. So sometimes I think it's, like, weird for me to claim it, but all of it. Just to say, I think a big piece for me though was about like honesty. You don't like the way you feel and you don't like the things that you are doing and you are doing it anyway. Yeah, that was the clarifying moment for me was like, what if you just were honest? You don't have to do this. I think everyone has a different relationship to like sobriety and self control and honesty. What was your relationship with those things?
- [14:00]
Edith Zimmerman
Alcohol is very obviously ruining my life. I mean, not that dramatically, but like, it wasn't like I was having car accidents and running up debt or something. It was just like very slowly my life was becoming incredibly repetitive. Nothing new was really happening that was meaningful. I just like felt gross. I just kept doing the same thing every day. It's like the thing that I used to do. It's like, okay, you go out, you have drinks with friends, who knows you're gonna meet, who knows what's gonna happen, who knows what funny thing you're gonna say. It's gonna be great. It's just like, it starts out like that and then for me it ended like, oh, I'm just drinking six glasses of wine alone at home. How did it get from there to there? The honesty part for me, I think just came where I was like, well, yeah, that obviously is bad, but it's like, what else am I gonna like? This is the only thing that's fun for me. And I was kinda just like holding these two things that I'm like, I've gotta solve this incredibly difficult puzzle. Like nobody else before me has dealt with something so challenged. And then one day I was like, no, it's not that hard. It's not the one thing I like. I think I'm just willing to see what life is like without it. And I had this book that I had bought six months earlier that was like, kind of gives you a new perspective on drinking. And I read that thinking it was gonna suck. Like the same day I decided I didn't, I was like willing to try not drinking permanently.
- [15:26]
Interviewer
What was the book?
- [15:27]
Edith Zimmerman
It's called Stop Drinking now by Alan Carr.
- [15:30]
Interviewer
Oh, yeah.
- [15:31]
Edith Zimmerman
It's like, it sounds crazy. Cause he also wrote the book about how to stop smoking and he also wrote the book about how to like stop using cocaine. And he and his whole team have this suite of books about. But really once you, if you decide to believe them or if you become compelled enough to believe them, the crux is the same. It's like all these things that feel so special and private and mysterious. It's like, yeah, they're addictions, and they're just habits. And if you just break the addiction. Addiction meaning, like, your body's used to it, it's a habit. It's a little cycle. If you just, like, unravel it and feel excited about unraveling it, like, you're giving yourself something special and new instead of you're taking away something you love. It's like, now you're giving yourself a better gift. And it's like, okay, cool. Cause I don't think I would have responded to feeling like, okay, now, Edith, you can't have this thing that everyone else gets to have. You have to live in time out for the rest of your life. It's like, I'm not gonna do that. But now it's like, I get to be in the special place, and all the people who are still drinking are in the timeout.
- [16:32]
Interviewer
I totally understand that. I mean, I think that one of the hardest parts for me was I am a comedian. I mean, at the time, I was, like, doing a lot of standup, and I would, like, be in places where part of.
- [16:44]
Edith Zimmerman
When did you stop drinking?
- [16:46]
Interviewer
I don't have a clear date. It's been at least seven years, maybe more, but I'm like, it might be 10. I was often in these places where some or often actually all of the pay was drink tickets. So they're like, come to do a show, and as a result, you could take five shots. And I was like, well, I don't want that. But I would just, like, end up where it was, like, four nights a week. But I think that one of the hardest parts was figuring out, what do I do.
- [17:11]
Edith Zimmerman
Yeah.
- [17:12]
Interviewer
Cause it's just, like, a very socially accepted thing. It's like, I have a drink in my hand. We're drinking together now. It's like, do I drink soda every night? That was, like, a really hard part for me, but I think it is true. At least it's true for me. I wonder if it's true for you is that there actually was quite a bit of creativity and art into what does my life look like without alcohol? As opposed to just being like, I do the same thing everyone else does.
- [17:35]
Edith Zimmerman
And I think also that could, like, really speak to people. Cause a lot of times people are like, why would I want to stop drinking? Drinking's awesome. But framed in that way, it's like, oh, yeah. I just, like, started doing what everyone else did until it was just, like, the only thing I did.
- [17:50]
Interviewer
Mm.
- [17:50]
Edith Zimmerman
But it also felt very much like it was my choice. I was on, like, this private romantic experience with this destructive boyfriend and, like, oh, my God. But it was really just like, the same thing everyone else does. Yeah. Life post drinking is like, yeah, you have a lot more time. Like, what are you gonna do with it? And what am I gonna do with it? And what do I like to do? I mean, I've written about this a lot, so sometimes when I find myself, like, on my talking points, I feel, like, really obnoxious. So I've written about this and drawn about it many times. But, like, literally after I quit drinking, maybe even the next day or that same afternoon or something, or the week I Googled, like, what do people do besides drink? Kind of as a joke to myself, like, what the fuck is happening? Because it wasn't. It was sort of like a humorless time where it's like, okay, like, phase two. And there's no answers. Right? Like, there's no answers. But actually, there, like, was a very boring answer that, for me, ended up being very real, which was like, there's like, top 10 lists. Like, go to a cafe. Like, go to a museum. I'm like, am I really reading this right now? And one was like, rediscover activities you enjoyed as a child. I'm like, yeah, right, of course. That's, like, for real. And I read about people who are like, yeah, I stopped drinking. Then I, like, got back into basketball or whatever. You know, like, people. It's like, we like to, like, when we're kids, we don't drink, you know, and we find a way to enjoy the world.
- [19:13]
Interviewer
I think people also have this idea a lot of times that, like, drugs or alcohol are the key to creativity or being interesting.
- [19:21]
Edith Zimmerman
Yeah.
- [19:22]
Interviewer
I think there's lots and lots of examples of people, like, making their best work or making work at all.
- [19:27]
Edith Zimmerman
When I was in my. I don't know, I was, like, 26 or something. This guy. Friend of my boyfriend at the time, I was, like, spouting off at the bar, and he was like, man, Edith, like, some people are really annoying when they're drunk. Like, you actually are more creative when you're drunk. And I was like, I knew it. But it certainly did not stay that way. I don't even think it was true at the time. And, like, that's why it's tricky. Like, it starts out kind of fun. You have, like, one or two positive experiences such that, like, you can no longer really be honest with yourself later on when you're like, am I having that many positive experiences now or am I just like repeating the same thing that worked like eight years ago once or twice?
- [20:05]
Interviewer
There is a level of truth for me where I'm like now at 11pm or certainly at 1am I am asleep and I used to not be asleep at those times. And part of that is just age. But part of it is like when you are like drinking you go out and you like stay out past when you would want to stay out necessarily. Or like things just keep happening and accelerating. Cause I think like that's just true. It's like I started going to sleep a lot earlier and I woke up earlier and I had more time where I felt good and could like be clear minded. Yeah, that was like probably the most dramatic change for me.
- [20:39]
Edith Zimmerman
I too, I'm asleep at nine.
- [20:41]
Interviewer
Oh yeah, absolutely.
- [20:42]
Edith Zimmerman
I don't do any like my life is very boring. I'm being interviewed, right? Like that's cool. Good job. I'm surely doing something right. But like there's things that are missing. Like it's like you go too much in one direction. You gotta course correct. There's no perfect way to live. You just kind of have to do what you do. I completely agree and like the constraints of my current life are more interesting to me than the constraints of my life when I stop drinking.
- [21:10]
Chris Duffy
We're gonna take a quick break right now, but we will be back with more in just a moment.
- [21:23]
Ann
This podcast is brought to you by Simply cx. Here on Fixable, we help leaders tackle real workplace challenges and create change that sticks. One of the most important challenges leaders face right now is customer experience. It has moved from nice to have to the driving force behind whether a business thrives or or struggles. That's why Microsoft created a new podcast called Simply CX and why you should listen to it. Hosted by Nicole McKinley, Microsoft's global customer experience CX leader simply CX features leaders from companies like CarMax, TD bank and T Mobile who are redesigning how organizations connect with customers. You will hear how innovation and great leadership come together to create change that makes markets and fuel sustainable growth. The conversations are direct, practical and packed with takeaways you can immediately apply to your own strategies, teams and customers. If you are working to build an experience that customers love and a customer centric culture your employees are part of, SimplyCX will help you get there faster. So don't miss out. Start listening to SimplyCX every other Tuesday, wherever you get your podcasts, and follow host Nicole McKinley on LinkedIn to keep the conversation going.
- [22:39]
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- [23:08]
Autotrader Ad
Are you really buying a car online on Autotrader right now?
- [23:11]
Edith Zimmerman
Really? I can get super specific with dealer listings and see cars based on my budget.
- [23:15]
Autotrader Ad
You can really have it delivered or pick it up. I think kid is walking up the slide.
- [23:20]
Edith Zimmerman
Really? Autotrader, Buy your car online. Really?
- [23:29]
Chris Duffy
And we are back.
- [23:31]
Interviewer
A lot of your artwork, especially the stuff that really resonates with people. It's kind of about things that I think people would say are, like, normal. Can you tell me a little bit about how you think about that? Because I think those constraints have ended up being, like, creative fuel for you in a lot of ways.
- [23:49]
Edith Zimmerman
Yeah, a lot of it's just, like, not conscious. Like, I wake up and I go sit down in my office, and I take out my pen. It's like 4:35 in the morning. And it's like my special time to myself. Cause the children are sleeping, hopefully. And it's dark outside, and it's very quiet. And I've got my coffee. And I just write about whatever comes to mind from the day before. And, like, it usually starts out kind of awkward. I'm like, well, what? Like, oh, like, good dinner we had last night or whatever. And then. And then just, like, a thread will sort of present itself. And I find that I want to draw about, like, oh, yeah. And then my daughter picked this flower. And then, like, the flower reminded me of this lamp. And it just sort of. Right, Like. I don't know. It's kind of like what I want to create or what my hand wants to draw or what I feel like drawing. And a lot of times, like, what you see is very little, very, very small percentage of what I actually do. It's, like, pretty. Pretty dull, most of it, like, truly dull.
- [24:45]
Interviewer
You make art about, like, everyday stuff, and you take it from your journal. Has making art about the everyday made you appreciate mundane objects or mundane experiences more?
- [24:58]
Edith Zimmerman
No.
- [24:59]
Interviewer
Okay, tell me.
- [25:01]
Edith Zimmerman
Let's say there's, like, a comic about how I drove the kids to the supermarket and we, like, had this funny experience at the supermarket. I'm not like, I can't wait to go to the supermarket. Cause what a Good time we had there. It just stays mundane. Like, I haven't tapped into any, like, secret of the universe or anything. Cause I didn't. I was mostly a writer for like, the first, like, 10 years of my career. But I did a lot of art in college and I liked drawing, like, little mundane things, like, and sort of doing portraits of like, a spray bottle. But it was just college, no big deal. But I still like doing that stuff. Just like pouring a lot of attention and detail into like, a screenshot of a YouTube video or something. It's like relishing attention on unexpected destinations or things I think is, like, beautiful. But it's sort of.
- [25:55]
Interviewer
I don't know.
- [25:56]
Edith Zimmerman
There was some quote. I don't even know what it is. But it was like something about, like, the purpose of life is to spend attention at the times when you don't have to.
- [26:05]
Interviewer
Well, I think that I've been thinking a lot recently about how a lot of going through the world is. It's just easy to not notice things, to be, like, totally numb and on autopilot. And it's easy to do that, period. And I think that actually there is something really important about being where you are. I mean, this is like. I came up with Buddhism just now. Did you notice that? I'm gonna quote Ram Dass in, like, the worst way. But I do think that part of your art is about, like, being where you are.
- [26:35]
Edith Zimmerman
I would say that it's about being where I am for like, an hour and a half every morning. Cause I'm never where I'm at when I'm with the girls. So I draw a comic about being in the supermarket. But, like, when I'm at the supermarket, I'm like, how do we get out of here? Why are they being so annoying? Maybe I'll take a selfie with them so we look cute, but, like, we gotta, gotta, like. And then the next morning I'm like, we went to this. Like, we went to the supermarket. I'm gonna drop. Like, it's like I'm looking back at these moments. I don't know. It's hard to describe. But it does feel like I can't be in the moment all the time. It's just not. I'm not doing that right now. That's not my life. But there is this time that I've harnessed that's important to me. Where I feel, like, quiet and I mean, flow state, something like that. It's like something akin to that where I'm thinking about these moments that are like, Kind of arising. And I'm observing them again in a way that I. A lot of it's just. I don't know what I'm doing, really, but, like, something without too much thought or intention. It's just, like, that's what I like to do. Or it feels good to have this moment, to just, like, let things from yesterday bubble back up to the surface and take a few minutes or half an hour. Just, like, lavishing some attention on, like, oh, yeah, my daughter picked a flower for me. I'm gonna draw that today. Or, oh, that, like, thing broke in the car. It was funny to look at. I'm gonna, like, draw my memory of it.
- [27:56]
Interviewer
I feel you being like, who am I to say this stuff? Like, I don't have this all figured out.
- [27:59]
Edith Zimmerman
Yeah.
- [28:00]
Interviewer
I just wanna say, yeah, I'm trying to figure this stuff out. And, like, it's much more helpful to talk to someone who is figuring it out than someone who's like, by the way. And that's how I've written 17 books this year, and you can see me. I'm the entire New York Times bestseller list is just me. So I just want to say that because I think that that actually is really important. You don't have to have it all figured out. So you have something to offer.
- [28:22]
Edith Zimmerman
I hope so. I mean, I feel that way when I'm feeling optimistic. I mean, a lot of it's also, like, my husband makes this life possible for me. Like, I was doing this before we met, and then he, like, financially supports us. So this question of, like, oh, my God, is my newsletter gonna make enough money to support myself? Was like, well, I can just move in with my husband. Like, we're fine. Then we're have a baby. We're gonna move upstate. Like, we can afford this. I can spend the day kind of how I want, in part because he's doing this and I'm not. Like, it's funny. It's like, I think I'm doing. I'm doing work. I, like, I'm glad if it resonates with people. I'm not, like, famous or anything. I'm not wealthy. I'm not making a lot of money off any of this. So, like, there's a little absurdity to this, but that's cool.
- [29:06]
Interviewer
But I think that, like, these are all the same questions that I genuinely am wrestling with every day right now. How do you, like, make time to make art when there's so much else going on in life? Like, how can someone do that? What are three things that someone can do that, can create some space and allow them the actual time to do that.
- [29:26]
Edith Zimmerman
Well, staying up late or waking up early, I have time now in the middle of the day because we have childcare, but it doesn't work. Like, I do more, like, administrative stuff during the day. But it's essential to me to work early in the morning before anything enters my mind. I know some people, it's like that at night, but, yeah, early morning hours. Well, I have to say it because it's just blocking my mind if I don't say it. But it's like, well, if you don't want to make it, then don't. You don't have to. It's like, I think a lot of people who are artists, they just do it because they feel compelled to. So people who are like, I just don't have time to make art. I'm like, you certainly do. You can find time if it needs to come out of you.
- [30:06]
Interviewer
I actually think that's so important. I wrestle with, like, I want to be an artist. Like, I want to do that, but it takes so much control, like, so much self control and so much self discipline to, like, do it. I think a lot about how you can't just say you're a doctor, but, like, if I don't do comedy, then I'm not a comedian. If I don't write, then I'm not a writer. That is the only thing that makes you that. And it takes so much to, like, actually do it when there's so many other things in life. I think that's like an element of discipline and self control that I really am wrestling with right now.
- [30:43]
Edith Zimmerman
I don't know. I mean, I've just had, like, sort of a different experience. Tell me. Which is why I hesitate to be prescriptive about any of it. Which is like, these narratives that I thought were true ended up not being true for me. Specific, like, for instance, about drinking. I thought that, like, everywhere you turn for the rest of your life is gonna be like this pang of temptation. And, oh, God, it's like, hasn't been like that for me at all. And also, like, oh, that it's gonna be the hardest thing. And you're just like, for some reason, that one day was just like, okay, I'm done. Who knows what the future holds, right? But, like, so that was bizarrely easy. And then it's difficult because sometimes my older. My younger daughter wakes up during this time. But, like, it's easy for me. I don't. I don't Set an alarm. But if compulsion, like, feeling compelled to make stuff right now is the criteria, it's like, so. Yeah, so it's sort of the opposite. It's like, it's not hard for me to carve this time out. It's also habitual, too. It's like, I carved it out, and it was very easy for me. Cause it's like, la, la, la. I can just wake up and go to the coffee shop and spend as much time as I want here. And so that became, like, the thing I did. And now it's like, well, I can't take this away from me. This is the cornerstone of my entire life. So, like.
- [31:56]
Interviewer
But I wonder if it also has to do with something about, like, where you're willing to put yourself on the list versus other people. You know what I mean? Because for me, like, making, like, writing or telling jokes or performing live, like, those are times where I feel like the most myself. And so whenever I make the time to do them, I'm like, what a reminder. But it's really easy for me to not make the time. Especially when you have, like, to care for family. And it's not just about you anymore. When you get to a phase where it's like, you're caring for your parents or you're caring for kids. I mean, you were hitting on this with the narratives. Like, it's easy to fall into narratives about ourselves and our creativity and who we are and what life will be like, even if they don't necessarily match up with reality.
- [32:35]
Edith Zimmerman
Yeah. I think with. When you're responsible for other people, it's hard to carve out large chunks of uninterrupted time. And I think when people say, like, I just don't have the time to do blah, blah, blah, like, they're not lying.
- [32:51]
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- [33:21]
Autotrader Ad
Are you really buying a car online on autotrader right now?
- [33:24]
Interviewer
Really?
- [33:24]
Autotrader Ad
At a playground?
- [33:25]
Edith Zimmerman
Yeah, really? Look at these listings from dealers.
- [33:28]
Chris Duffy
Wow.
- [33:29]
Autotrader Ad
Your search can really get that specific.
- [33:31]
Edith Zimmerman
Really?
- [33:31]
Autotrader Ad
And you just put in your info and boom, car's in your budget.
- [33:35]
Edith Zimmerman
Mom needs a second honey.
- [33:36]
Autotrader Ad
You can really have it delivered.
- [33:38]
Edith Zimmerman
Really? Or I can pick it up at the dealership. One sec, sweetie. Mommy's buying a car.
- [33:43]
Chris Duffy
Mommy, look.
- [33:44]
Autotrader Ad
I think your kid is walking up the slide.
- [33:46]
Edith Zimmerman
Kyle. Again? Really? Autotrader. Buy your car online. Really?
- [33:50]
Chris Duffy
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- [34:36]
Interviewer
You wrote this really beautiful article about running and how sobriety and this physical activity of going for runs and jogging had kind of had an interesting relationship. Can you just tell us a little bit about that?
- [34:52]
Edith Zimmerman
Also, I just want to say I feel like I'm starting to feel just like an imposter, where it's like, oh, you journal and you run instead of drink. It's like, yeah, you and, like, 50% of the population, but, yes, running.
- [35:05]
Interviewer
Well, what's the imposter part of that?
- [35:06]
Edith Zimmerman
Well, it's like, yeah, there's nothing special about what I do. So, like, why would anyone want to talk to me about it?
- [35:11]
Interviewer
Oh, well, I think the answer. I can answer that one, which is, you don't have to. I do. I think you're special, but I know that literally sounds like a Mr. Rogers episode. I think you're special, Edith, but I do. But I mean, really, I think, like, the fact that it works for a lot of people is why I'm interested in it.
- [35:29]
Edith Zimmerman
It's sort of like what you were talking about earlier about, like, when you make choices with your life that are not just, like, going with the flow. I mean, I don't think anybody thinks of themselves as going with the flow and just sort of doing whatever. Everyone think they're making decisions all the time, which they are. And I'm going with the flow with, like, 90% of my life or something. Like, every so often, I feel like, oh, you know what? I want to take a step back and redirect this. Or maybe I've only done that three times in my life, and the rest of it is just going with the flow. But designing your life, once you suddenly have more time or once you make a little choice where you're like, I'm actually not going to do this thing. I think it's really important. And because for me, like, the thing. It was not difficult to stop drinking, but what was difficult was finding stuff to do with the time that emerged. Like, I knit. I watched ASMR videos, I watched tv, I read thrillers. Cause it was, like, kind of real with myself. I was like, what do I actually like to do? And a lot of it I didn't really know, but I was like, well, I know I like doing these kind of things. Reading these, like, trashy books and watching TV and knitting. I want. I don't want it to sound like I've made real choices with myself. I think a lot of times when good things have happened, it's when I'm being realistic about my motivations. Yeah. Like, now my creativity is better too. It's like, you gotta be real. And also, like, I wanted to, like, stick it to some people who thought I would probably never be able to. So you're like, harness, like, spite a little bit too. And anyway, so like, you just work with yourself and your real impulses.
- [37:11]
Interviewer
I totally get it, you know, of course. And I think, like, the idea that everything has to be, like, in this neat, tidy little package where it, like, makes sense all at once. And, like, I'm doing it for pure reasons is a big reason why a lot of people never make changes.
- [37:23]
Edith Zimmerman
This also, you were asking about running, and that was.
- [37:25]
Interviewer
How did running play into all this?
- [37:26]
Edith Zimmerman
Well, running was. It sort of makes sense in retrospect, but I stopped drinking, like, nine years ago, and then I started running six years ago. And that seems very close, but really there's three years, which, you know, is a lot. So, like, that there was a lot of energy that was just there. So eventually, through a very lucky chain of events, I started running. Like, Covid was involved. I had to found this other exercise class that was pretty good. I did that for like, two years. And then Covid closed the exercise studio. And I was like, well, I'll do anything but run. Cause I know I hate running because running's, like, the worst thing. I'd, like, tried it a couple times. It was like, completely the wrong fit for me to the point where I was like, well, I'm sure that I'd be good at some kind of exercise, but it's certainly not running because, like, my body's not right. Like, the way it moves is just, like, physically, deeply wrong. Like, it's just absolutely never, never gonna happen. And then, yeah, there's Much lower stakes. Sort of like, well, let's just do. Let's just. I'm gonna walk. I'll walk around the park during COVID and join this Strava group, which is an app for running, another exercise logging. So you can. It's basically like a social media for exercise. So if you do a run or a walk, you can show it to all your friends on Strava, and they'll be like, oh, good job. You did a run. So that was positive feedback. And then, yeah, you just sort of, like, started running. Punctuated the running, Walking, running, walking. And then eventually, you can just kind of keep running. I also had this idea that you're supposed to breathe through your nose. Yeah. Where it's like, oh, if you don't breathe through your nose, you're like an animal. You have to breathe through your mouth. Your. You must stop immediately. Like, you're gonna die or something. Like, that's just such terrible form. And then my friend was like, that's not true. I was like, oh, really? She's like, yeah, no, everybody breathes through their mouth when they run. I was like, are you serious? Yeah, it's true. So, yeah, so I just breathe through my mouth like everybody else who runs.
- [39:21]
Interviewer
I'm breathing through every orifice.
- [39:22]
Edith Zimmerman
I'm, like, a pretty good runner now, and I have to breathe through my mouth all the time.
- [39:25]
Interviewer
What, Other than where you're breathing, what are you thinking about while you run?
- [39:29]
Edith Zimmerman
Nothing special. I ruminate. Like, in a fight with my husband, I'll think about how wrong he is and how right I am. I don't know. It's like, when you're a runner, you want to convince other people to run, but I know that nobody wants that. Yeah, that's like. And it's never worked. Like, everyone's been trying for a long time, but, like, nobody cares. No one's like, I'm not a runner, and I hate running, but I'm just gonna, like, pay attention to some of these essays that these, like, proud people want to share. But so I'm always, like, trying to reach myself. If I could have been encouraged to run earlier, but, like, it would never have happened.
- [40:07]
Interviewer
So people always tell me that when they run, they, like, get to a place where, like, their mind clears and they're in this euphoric state. And when I am running, I am only thinking about, when will I be able to stop running? Like, that's like, when I run, I'm like, just get to the sign, and then you can stop. And then I Get to the sign. I go, okay, just go to the tree. But, like, it is just like a constant hostage negotiation in my head.
- [40:28]
Edith Zimmerman
How often do you run?
- [40:29]
Interviewer
Very rarely.
- [40:30]
Edith Zimmerman
Okay, well, I think with running, I got to a point where I could maintain a trot, sort of indefinitely.
- [40:38]
Interviewer
Wow.
- [40:39]
Edith Zimmerman
That felt like I had started, like, a new phase of life. Because when people say, like, oh, I just went for like a half hour run, I'm like, what do you mean?
- [40:45]
Interviewer
That's how I feel.
- [40:46]
Edith Zimmerman
And then very quickly, actually, I was able to get to that point, like, within a few weeks, just like, trotting. I was like, oh, I get it now. Like, you can just kind of keep going. And I was like, oh, I'm like a. It was a good feeling. So, like, those are some of the good feelings. And then you get to a point where you're not thinking about running, you're just kind of thinking about whatever. And it can kind of hurt, but that's just part of it. You're sort of thinking about something else.
- [41:10]
Interviewer
So you talked about how after you stopped drinking, you, like, quite literally Googled, like, what do people do other than drink? And like, three years later, you started running. You used to mostly be a writer, then you started publishing your artwork as well. There's been this process of self discovery, of asking yourself, what is it that I do? How do I spend my time? How has that process been an ongoing process? And how has it been something where you've found things and you want them to stick and be pillars?
- [41:41]
Edith Zimmerman
I just do what I like to do.
- [41:43]
Interviewer
I think that's a great answer. I think that is the answer. I mean. Cause my question is kind of like, how often do you figure out what you like to do and how often do you just stick?
- [41:51]
Edith Zimmerman
I feel like what I'm trying to say and what you're maybe trying to ask, which is maybe not true at all, is like, yeah, how do you find what you like to do? And how do you take a moment to be like, do I even like what I'm doing right now? And, like, how do I change it? I think a lot of it is just luck. Like, looking back on my own circumstances. That's why it feels difficult for me to recommend things to people. Cause, like, a lot of it has just been chance and luck and being fortunate that the things I like to do are pretty easy. Like, oh, yeah, I still like to draw. Like, I loved to draw as a kid. It's like, I still really like to draw and I like to write. It's like, I do my little writing and I do my little drawing and I do my little writing and somehow it's just, like, really fun. It hasn't run out. And I didn't know that I liked running. That was totally new. Like, I thought I had no sports stuff. If you want to find stuff that you might like to do, sometimes it's useful to think about things that you know, that you hate doing. Because, like, for me, I'm like, well, I hate, hate, hated running. I hate bicycling. So maybe someday I'll get into biking.
- [42:47]
Interviewer
Something that I think about a lot with this is like, I know that I'm so different than the person I was five years ago and certainly than the person I was 10 years ago or 15 years ago. But I sometimes forget that the person who I will be in five years is really different than who I am now. I think, surely this is me now.
- [43:09]
Edith Zimmerman
Yeah, like, okay, I've finally gotten to the place where I coast until. Until it's over.
- [43:13]
Interviewer
Yeah, now I'm me.
- [43:15]
Edith Zimmerman
But the answer is dull. It's like, just keep testing. Everything you think you know about yourself is probably not true. It's like, well, great. Like, what does that even mean? Like, I don't know. Realistically, I don't know. I think it's just like being open to new experiences and retrying things because sometimes, like, the situation is just totally different or you're totally different.
- [43:35]
Interviewer
Edith, thank you so much for being on the show. This was an absolute pleasure to talk to you.
- [43:39]
Edith Zimmerman
Thank you for having me.
- [43:43]
Chris Duffy
That is it for today's episode of how to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to our guest, Edith Zimmerman. Her newsletter is called Drawing Links and you can find more from her, including her Etsy store where you can buy cards and prints and all kinds of other cool art stuff. @edithzimmerman.com I am your host, Chris Duffy and my book Humor Me about How to Laugh More Every Day is available for pre order right now. You can find more about my book and all of my other projects@chrisduffycomedy.com how to be a Better Human is put together by a team who are cartoonishly wonderful on the TED side. We've drawn together Daniela Ballarezzo, Banban Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha Brooks, Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lot Tanzika, Sung Minivong, Antonia Ley and Joseph de Bruyne. This episode was fact checked by Julia Dickerson and Mattea Salas, who believe in honesty and truth telling. And on the PRX side we've got artists of audio, Morgan Flannery, Nor Gill, Patrick Grant and Jocelyn Gonzalez. Thanks again to you for listening. Please share this episode with a person who you think is cartoonishly wonderful, someone who you would like to see drawn into a cartoon, or just a person you think would enjoy this. We will be back next week with even more how to be a Better Human. Until then, take care and thanks for listening.
- [45:00]
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- [45:29]
Autotrader Ad
Are you really buying a car online on Autotrader right now?
- [45:32]
Edith Zimmerman
Really?
- [45:33]
Autotrader Ad
At a playground?
- [45:34]
Edith Zimmerman
Yeah, really? Look at these listings from dealers.
- [45:36]
Autotrader Ad
Wow, your search can really get that specific.
- [45:39]
Edith Zimmerman
Really?
- [45:40]
Autotrader Ad
And you just put in your info and boom. Cars in your budget.
- [45:43]
Edith Zimmerman
Mom needs a second.
- [45:44]
Autotrader Ad
Honey, you can really have it delivered.
- [45:46]
Edith Zimmerman
Really? Or I can pick it up at the dealership. One sec, sweetie. Mommy's buying a car.
- [45:52]
Autotrader Ad
Mommy, I think your kid is walking up the slide.
- [45:54]
Edith Zimmerman
Kyle. Again?
- [45:55]
Ann
Really?
- [45:56]
Edith Zimmerman
Autotrader. Buy your car online. Really?
- [45:59]
Interviewer
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- [46:29]
Edith Zimmerman
Hey, it's Olivia from Ollie. I gotta tell you, I saw when you asked AI about probiotics. No judgment, but I think Ollie can help.
- [46:38]
Autotrader Ad
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- [46:40]
Edith Zimmerman
Your digestive and immune system. Just two gummies a day to bring balance to your gut. So save the AI for drafting that reply to your ex.
- [46:49]
Ann
That's going to take guts.
- [46:50]
Edith Zimmerman
Go to olly. Com to learn more. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.
- [46:58]
Chris Duffy
Ollie.