How to challenge negative self-beliefs (w/ Master Fixer Muriel Wilkins)

Summary

Fixable Podcast – Episode Summary

Podcast: Fixable
Episode: How to Challenge Negative Self-Beliefs (w/ Master Fixer Muriel Wilkins)
Date: February 23, 2026
Hosts: Anne Morriss, Frances Frei
Guest: Muriel Wilkins (Executive Coach and Author of "Leadership Unblocked")

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Main Theme

This episode focuses on the internal “leadership blockers” that hinder professional growth and well-being, with a special emphasis on challenging negative self-beliefs. Executive coach Muriel Wilkins joins to discuss insights from her new book, Leadership Unblocked, and answers listener workplace dilemmas. The tone is conversational, honest, and supportive, balancing wisdom with practical, actionable advice.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Introduction: Feeling Stuck at Work

• [01:12] Frances and Anne talk about the universality of feeling “blocked,” even as experienced leaders.
• Frances shares her own story of being blocked while writing case studies at Harvard, and how expressing her struggle to someone else helped her get unblocked.
  • Frances: "When I say something aloud to another person, being unblocked often is on the other side of it." [01:45]

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The Seven Common Leadership Blockers

[04:05] Muriel identifies these recurring internal beliefs that act as blockers:

1. I need to be involved
2. I need it done now
3. I know I’m right
4. I can’t make a mistake
5. If I can do it, so can you
6. I can’t say no
7. I don’t belong

Muriel: “This list is not exhaustive ... These are the ones I saw as most popular when I looked across 300ish clients over 20 years.” [04:16]

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Exploring “I Need to Be Involved”

[04:33]–[09:33]

• Common among founders/CEOs, who fear stepping back is an existential risk.
• The real issue isn’t micromanagement—it’s feeling burnt out, frustrated by not being everywhere, and sensing things falling through the cracks.
• Muriel advises starting by:
  • Recognizing and naming the issue (“There may be some dissonance”).
  • Examining the underlying beliefs and assumptions ("What am I thinking about myself, others, or the situation?").
  • Accepting ownership of the issue; changing behaviors starts with changing the beliefs that drive them.
  • Many beliefs are rooted in core human needs: worth, acceptance, safety.
  • Especially for founders, identity can be deeply wrapped in the business’s success or failure.

Muriel: “Let’s be responsible for what we think rather than let it run on autopilot.” [08:30]
Muriel: “Founders feel threatened about their own identity because they are the business.” [08:57]

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Exploring “I Don’t Belong”

[10:39]–[17:14]

• Anne raises “I don’t belong here”—a belief she has wrestled with, common in the workplace.
• Muriel unpacks tension between individual agency and systemic responsibility for inclusion.
• It’s crucial to differentiate between facts ("I'm the only woman here") and the narrative one attaches to those facts.
  • These beliefs can be learned/internalized from the system, not only self-generated.
  • This applies to everyone, not just underrepresented groups.

Muriel: “Is this truly my belief, or is it a learned belief?” [11:38]

How to Challenge “I Don’t Belong”

• Start by recognizing problematic patterns (e.g., not speaking in meetings).
• Reverse engineer your goal: “How do I want to come across?” Work backward: “What would I need to believe to make that true?”
  • E.g., “I would need to believe I belong here because I have something to contribute.”
  • Key distinction: belonging vs. being accepted by others.

Muriel: “Beliefs are malleable!” [14:56] Anne: “The breakthrough for me was ‘belonging is overrated.’” [15:05] Muriel: “See things for what they are, not what you think they mean.” [17:11]

Agency and Meaning-Making

• The “so what” is determined by the meaning you create—not by the situation alone.
• One’s experience can shift dramatically even if no one else in the room changes.
• Waiting for external change is disempowering; real growth starts with shifting your own mindset.
• Cites Michael Singer’s The Untethered Soul: Instead of making everything outside okay, tap into internal power and agency.

Muriel: “Agency is recognizing what are the choices that I have in front of me... Choice gives you freedom, liberation, movement—and power.” [21:12]

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Listener Questions & Practical Fixes

1. Wanting Advancement but No Opportunities

[22:17]–[25:20]

• Listener is an individual contributor who wants to become a leader but sees few opportunities to advance.
• Muriel suggests first clarifying what “advancement” means—is it only a promotion?
• Look for ways to grow skill and scope, even if a formal promotion isn’t available.
• Consider what’s in your control: Are there alternative ways to gain experience/visibility?
• Gather data about the likelihood and timing of promotion—be realistic about organizational norms.
• If you still want a promotion, get feedback about what it takes and whether you want to do it.

Muriel: “Promotions are not fully, if at all, in our control ... sometimes it has nothing to do with you.” [24:00]

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2. Shifting from Operator to Strategic Leader

[27:10]–[31:23]

• Listener feels typecast as a reliable “doer” but wants to participate in strategic conversations.
• Muriel: “People know you for what you show up as.”
• To shift perception: Go on a deliberate “PR campaign.” Tell people you want to work strategically. Ask for specific opportunities/projects.
• Don’t wait for others—make recommendations and volunteer for big-picture initiatives.
• Frances suggests asking leaders how they think about strategic issues to build skills and signal intent without being direct.

Muriel: “If you’re stuck in a rut in terms of how you’re perceived, you need to go tell people that, no, here’s the other part of you.” [29:51]

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3. Being Steady for the Team in Uncertainty

[31:23]–[36:15]

• Listener worries about being emotionally steady for their team when they themselves feel unsettled.
• Muriel challenges the idea that steadiness means always feeling good.
• Instead, “feeling steady is that even though there’s change around me, I can stand grounded in the moment.”
• The first step: Understand what personally grounds you. Everyone’s source of steadiness is unique.
• Don’t expect external circumstances to make you steady—resource yourself.

Muriel: “What this is really about is being a resource to yourself versus outsourcing what you need.” [35:17] Muriel: “Real growth and maturity happens when we can resource, not just outsource.” [36:01]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Frances: “When I say something aloud to another person, being unblocked often is on the other side of it.” [01:45]
• Muriel: “Let’s be responsible for what we think rather than let it run on autopilot.” [08:30]
• Anne: “The breakthrough for me was belonging is overrated.” [15:05]
• Frances: “All the change was in your own mind.” [19:16]
• Muriel: “Agency is recognizing what are the choices... Choice gives you freedom.” [21:12]
• Muriel: “People know you for what you show up as.” [27:28]
• Muriel: “Be a resource to yourself versus outsourcing what you need.” [35:17]

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Lighthearted Ending & Fixation

[36:48]–[38:41]

• Muriel shares her current obsession: the TV show “Industry,” praised for its raw depiction of workplace dynamics and the reminder that we remain fundamentally human at work.

Muriel: “It shows the characters as real human beings ... I think we forget that we are humans at work.” [38:15]

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Takeaways & Actionable Insights

• Leadership blockers are internal beliefs—recognize and consciously challenge them.
• Separate fact from interpretation; create meaning that empowers you.
• Agency and change start with oneself, not with waiting for external shifts.
• Advancement and recognition require both introspection (what do I truly want?) and visible action (show up as who you want to be).
• In uncertainty, resource yourself—find what grounds you and don’t depend on outside factors.

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:12] Blockages at work—Frances shares a personal example
• [04:05] Muriel lists the seven leadership blockers
• [04:33] Deep dive into “I need to be involved”
• [10:39] Tackling “I don’t belong” beliefs
• [13:38] Coaching story: overcoming impostor feelings in a new leadership role
• [22:17] Listener Q: Advancement when promotion isn’t forthcoming
• [27:10] Listener Q: Achieving the “strategic leader” perception
• [31:23] Listener Q: Staying steady for your team amid uncertainty
• [36:48] Muriel’s current obsession: the show “Industry”

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Closing Thought

Agency—the ability to choose your beliefs, meanings, and behaviors—is at the heart of overcoming negative self-beliefs and becoming the leader you want to be.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Francis when was the last time you felt blocked or stuck in some way?

[C]

Oh, at work. With case writing, which is such a vital part of my job, we teach by the case method. We write most of our cases. I have written dozens and dozens of cases and I was blocked and I couldn't figure out how to write a case. And I mean completely stumped.

[B]

What allowed you to get unblocked?

[C]

Well, first I went back to my roots, and my roots are that when I confess, I get to the other side of things. Now, I grew up Catholic. I didn't really believe in confession, but I got in the habit of doing it. But I have to say, as an adult, when I say something aloud to another person, being unblocked often is on the other side of it.

[B]

Yeah, I'm asking for two reasons. One, I do think this experience of feeling stuck or blocked even in these places that in the past were places that were very easy for people to operate is a very common experience at work. And we happen to have the world's expert on unblocking. Welcome to Fixable, a podcast where we solve problems in the workplace.

[C]

I'm Anne Morris and and I'm Frances Fry.

[B]

Today's master fixer is the very wonderful Muriel Wilkins. Over the past few decades, she's advised hundreds of C suite leaders as an executive coach. She draws on that experience in her fantastic new book, Leadership Unblocked. Muriel Wilkins, welcome to Fixable.

[D]

Thank you. I am so excited to be here.

[B]

We're so thrilled. We had admired you for years and then finally met you in person just a few months ago. And it was a high. Love at first sight. Love at first sight.

[D]

Love at maybe the 20th site because it was in person. But, you know, sight had been there for a while. But yes, the feeling was very mutual.

[B]

You are a rock star in our world. You just wrote a terrific new book, Leadership Unblocked. You coach lots of senior leaders on their toughest problems. You host an amazing podcast called Coaching Real Leaders, where we can actually listen in on you doing your amazing work. All right, let's get right into this idea of leadership blockers.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And you identify seven leadership blockers that show up again and again. So can you just. Can you run through the seven for us?

[D]

Sure, absolutely. So they are. I need to be involved. I need it done now. I know I'm right. I can't make a mistake. If I can do it, so can you. I can't say no, and I don't belong. And let me be clear, like, this list is not exhaustive. It's not to say that there are no other beliefs. I serve these up as the ones that I saw as most popular when I looked across, you know, 300ish clients that I had worked with over 20 years.

[B]

Got it. So let's pull the thread on I need to be involved.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

Because this is one we see a lot in our work, particularly among founders, CEOs, and they often believe with passionate conviction. And I'm generalizing, but have run into this belief that pulling themselves out of the details is going to be an existential threat to their baby, which is this organization that they have nurtured from idea phase to some extraordinary level of scale. And even when the talented people around them are feeling very micromanaged. So the friction is very clear to everyone. And yet this belief is very difficult to give up. So where would you start? With someone who is recognizing themselves in this storyline.

[D]

Yep. So as am I. I mean, I'm a founder CEO.

[B]

It's clear because I've been there. I was that founder CEO.

[D]

Listen, I feel everything that you're saying. I mean, the first place to start is recognizing that. That there may be an issue, you know, that there might be some dissonance. And with individuals such as the ones that you spoke about. You know, the ping is not like, oh, my gosh, I belief that I need to be involved. Or it's even not, oh, I'm micromanaging people and they don't like it. That's not it. It's the frustration that they can't be in all places at once. The business has scaled for the first time or maybe for the repeated time. They're feeling this like, I cannot be everywhere. Some things might actually be falling through the cracks in the way that they had not before. They are feeling this sense of burnout, right? And then I think from there, it's identifying, well, what are the behaviors that are leading to this way that you're feeling? And then asking yourself again, well, what is it that I'm thinking about myself? Or what is it that I'm thinking about the others? You know, my people, my board, whoever it might be, what is it that I'm thinking about this situation, this context where the business is, that then leads me to contribute to the issue the way I'm contributing to it. So there is a level of ownership and acceptance. Right. That is necessary and also a motivation for that gap, that dissonance to close. So it is not only asking yourself about the behaviors that are contributing, but also then what's driving those behaviors? What are the assumptions that I'm making? It'll sound like, you know.

[B]

Yeah, what will it sound like? That's a great point.

[D]

It can sound like I need to be involved. If I'm not involved, all hell is going to break loose. If I'm not involved, they're going to come ask me anyway. Or, you know, sometimes it is focused on the other. It's, I need to be involved because they don't know what they're doing. Right. Or I need to be involved.

[B]

I'm the only one that really understands business. I'm the only one that knows how. This is the only one.

[D]

I mean, I had a CEO once say to me, I, I'm the only one who cares. Okay? He had this extraordinarily loyal, dedicated team who had been with him from day one. And the words out of his mouth was, I'm the only one who cares. And I was like, oh, well, let's unpack that a little bit, right? Because how is that impacting what you do? So it can sound different, but there is always, always an assumption driving the way that we behave. And it's not necessarily that they're bad. Right. It's just a question of is it helping you in this moment, given the impact you want to have, if it's helping you, hands off, we're great. But if it is contributing to this dissonance and what you're trying to do is close that dissonance, then we ought to pay attention to the belief as well. My whole thing here is let's be responsible for what we think rather than let it run on autopilot. Because these beliefs that we have about ourselves are so grounded in fundamental human needs. Right. The need to feel worthy, the need to feel accepted or like we belong, and in this case, the need to feel safe. I think particularly for founders, they feel threatened about their own identity because they are the business. Right. Like, if something goes wrong with the business, then it means there's something wrong with me. And I think it's getting them to understand that, like, what does it really mean for something to go wrong with the business? Like we're talking about, do you really need to be involved in the PowerPoint deck? Not, you know. Yeah, not in like the IPO pitch, you know, like, like, let's calibrate here. Okay.

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[B]

I'm going to pull on one more here and then I want to get to some listener questions. I don't belong here. And this is a belief that I have adopted at various points in my life. How do you start to tackle this one with people?

[D]

Yeah, this was probably the trickiest one for me to write about. I always see my job as a coach in my work. My passion is for folks to find their personal agency in any given situation. And the belonging one is tough because the vernacular for the past couple of years is around, what are the organization's responsibility systems? Responsibility in having belonging as a pillar of who we are as a culture. And so here I am saying, no, you can belong no matter what.

[B]

I've confronted this tension a lot with folks.

[D]

And so I think there is a both and here, which is this is not to absolve the system. Right. But the key here is in what way is your belief of I don't belong here a mirror or an internalization of the very belief that system may have wanted you to have in order for this to work? When folks start thinking about it that way, they realize, oh, let me question that. Is this truly my belief or is it a learned belief? And so the place that it starts going back to your question still goes back to something feels off. Right? I'm not speaking up at the meeting. I'm not trying to get visibility in the organization. I want to leave because I'm one of the only. And by the way, this doesn't just happen because automatically disbelieve people think it's for underrepresented groups. I purposely, in the book, the client that I have in mind in that chapter is not from an underrepresented group. Okay? And so this can hit folks no matter what. Obviously, it can be exacerbated under certain situations. But for him, it was, you know, I'm new in this role. I'm at these meetings, I'm at the big boy table, and I don't feel like I'm supposed to be here. And as a result, I'm not contributing in the way that I feel like I should be contributing. And some people would say, well, no, don't worry, you don't need to contribute. But no, in his case, he really. He really did need to contribute more. And so we had to unpack, like, what's the problem? Because he had the skills, he had the knowledge, and it all came down to he literally did not feel like he fit in or he belonged in that realm. And, you know, we had very candid conversations around how important is it for you to fit in, to be able to do your job?

[B]

How did this client of yours get to the other side? Like, what did that work look like?

[D]

Yeah, absolutely. So in his case, once he realized, like, I'm not contributing because I have this operating thought that keeps going through my head, we started with, okay, well, how do you want to come across? So that's where the reverse engineering started to happen. Right? How do you want to come across in these meetings with these new peers that you have? And he's like, I want to be able to engage with them. I want to be able to have conversations with them where we're sharing ideas. I'm not just reporting out. And then we worked backwards. Okay. So for you to be able to do that and for you to be comfortable in these meetings, because this is not a fake. It till you make it right. This is in your own way. You want to show up in these ways in these meetings. Let's work that backwards. What would you need to believe to make that true? And he said, I would need to believe that I belong here because I have something to add, I have something to contribute, and there is a reason that I'm here. The other thing is, he said, I would have to believe that I do belong here. Even if I'm not accepted, I belong. And those two things are very different. Which was key for him. Right.

[B]

And so for me, I love that phrasing. Just to underline what would I need to believe? I think is a really.

[C]

I wrote it down way too.

[D]

Yeah. Yes. What would I need to believe? Because here's the thing, like, what we know from neuroscience, like, beliefs are malleable. That's what's fun about it, you know, like, make them whatever you want.

[B]

The breakthrough. For me, the belief was belonging is overrated.

[D]

There you go. There you go. Right.

[B]

And it was helpful for me to kind of also look around at the most successful entrepreneurs that we know, all identify as outsiders in some way and play with this idea that it's also this powerful motivator to remake the world when the world is not designed for you. Like, the emotional frequency of transformation is not cozy. Right?

[D]

That's right.

[B]

There's some friction. There's some, like, problem you want to go out to solve. And so it. And this doesn't work for everyone, but for me, it was letting go of the idea that this was a like, requirement of my.

[D]

Did that enable you to do? Ann? As a result, it allowed me to

[B]

take up more space in rooms. So I was building a company in the biotech space where I was the only woman, first time CEO. We had taken money from this melange of investors where I think I was the only woman in some of those rooms who had not been there to deliver a message or offer people coffee so there were a bunch of these dynamics that were kind of layered on top of each other. And what allowed me to let go of it was like, your power in that room is the fact that you are thinking differently from everybody else. You're bringing a different experience into the room.

[D]

Yeah, yeah. And there's something so key there in the way that you described it, because, you know, the fact that you were an only woman there, that was a fact. Like, we're not here to, like, change the actual facts, you know, so when people are like, no, no, no, no. Like, you're not the only one. No, I'm the only woman client. No, no, no, no. Like, you're not the new kid on the block. No, he is the new kid on the block. Right.

[B]

So they referred to me as the lady CEO, which I keep. I just fucking loved it.

[D]

The question is, you know, where we run into trouble is what is the narrative we're telling ourself about the fact that you're the only woman? And so I often, with my clients and with myself, it's like the start of being able to see things clearly is see things for what they are, not what you think they mean. Right. And so what they are is you're the only woman. Okay, so how do you want to use that? Like, what a. Does it mean anything to you? And if it does, what is the meaning that you're making out of that? Which, again, is the belief. And is that meaning making helping you? You know, if not, then make some other meaning that's going to help you. That doesn't mean that you let go of the other one. You might need it at some point. Right. But for now, if what you want to do is take up more space than what you shared, you know, belonging is overrated. That is what allows you. Great. If it's something else, pick something else. Right. We try to make meaning out of everything, and sometimes that the way we make meaning of something isn't really what's helpful to us.

[C]

You know, this is reminding me. I can remember when I was a young pup at the Harvard Business School, and, Muriel, I don't know if you remember Steve Wheelwright.

[D]

Yes.

[C]

Okay, so he was one of the great professors. I'm in the same unit as him, an operations man. He was a towering guy. And I can remember him saying to me and all the young pups, that's the what. Now tell me the so what it's like. And so I see this exactly. The what? I'm the only one. Now tell me the so what so what does that mean? And so this is all like knitting things together. I also, Ann, from watching you in the lady CEO period, I'm pretty sure no one else at the table changed and yet you became comfortable. So the other thing is that, oh, so all the change, to Muriel's point

[B]

of agency, these were like masters of the universe. Yeah.

[C]

All of the change was in your own mind. And I think that's what I find so powerful about this.

[D]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And to your so what point, Francis? I think to link back to Muriel, your basic framework here, your point is the so what is created by me in that room and I can change the so what?

[D]

Right.

[B]

And then what happens if I bring intention to changing that so what?

[C]

Thank you, Steve Wheelwright.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, is that it's reductionist, but is that a reasonable way to think about it?

[D]

Absolutely. I mean, I think there's a couple of things here. One is, you know what Frances just brought up around, nobody else changed, but you showed up differently. And therefore you experience that room differently without them having to do anything. I mean, man, like that feels magical.

[B]

Those guys hadn't done anything in decades.

[D]

The thing is that everything is co created, so they certainly had their parts. But you know, a lot of times, like my clients, myself included, I spent a lot of time doing this. Like I wish everything else on the outside would change. You know, there's an author. This is not a business book, but it is, was a life changing book for me. The book called the Untethered Soul by Michael Singer. And Michael Singer basically says, you know, we spend so much time and energy trying to make everything on the outside of us okay so that we can feel okay. And in reality we have this untapped power. This is what I really mean by potential. Right? We have this untapped power to actually shift the energy by trying to make ourselves okay versus waiting for everybody else. And to me, if you're, if you are in a position of leadership, that's when I speak specifically for that. The onus is on you, right? That's part of the gig. So there's like an amazing quality that can happen when we realize that. And to me, that is agency, right? Agency is recognizing what are the choices that I have in front of me to enable me to experience this, to be able to get to certain outcomes. It's choice, right? And what does choice give you? Choice gives you freedom, liberation, right? Movement. And in essence, it gives you power, right? You feel powerless when you don't have choice. And so if you're waiting for others to give you agency, they certainly can. But personally, I don't want to wait. And with my clients, you know, I make it very clear to them, you're the one who's sitting in front of me, not everybody else. So let's start with you and let's see what happens. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[E]

All right, we're going to get to

[B]

questions from listeners now. Francis, anything else you want to say on our deep dive into the deep issues here? No, I'm ready.

[C]

I'm really keen. The questions are awesome and I'm really keen to learn what you think about them. Muriel.

[D]

Great. Let's go. Cool.

[B]

Okay. I'm going to do a dramatic reading of these. Number one, I'm an individual contributor who wants to lead a team, but there aren't many advancement opportunities where I work. I really like the company and want to stay. How do I decide whether to wait to push or to start looking somewhere else? This is a question on a lot of young people's mind, you know, like, when am I going to get promoted?

[D]

When am I going to get promoted? Yeah. What I'm noticing in the question is that there is almost like an equal sign of advancement means promotion. So I think the first thing is, like, I would be curious, in what way are you defining advancement? Is it singularly in terms of promotion? And can we try to get a little qualitative here? What is it that you're actually trying to gain and is the only way that you can gain it through promotion? What is in your control that would enable you to get that sense of advancement that might not be in the form of promotion, but you're still getting something out of it. Right. So there's this what's in your control versus out of your control? Because, you know, promotions are not fully, if at all in our control. Somebody else has to say, you are now being promoted and sometimes it has nothing to do with you. Right. I'm dealing with a lot of people right now where, look, the market is not supporting promotion. The numbers aren't there. So there are choices to be made. The first places, like, let's look to really understanding if what you really mean is promotion versus something else. Okay? If it is indeed promotion that you're looking for, I would sort of raise your head and look around the landscape, right? Like, are people getting promoted? Have I gotten any signals that I'm in the pipeline for promotion? Am I being realistic about me being positioned for promotion? What I mean by that is if most people here get promoted in five years and I'VE only been here a year, then I want you to really think about what makes you the outlier, who's going to get there in a year, do a little bit of data gathering. And then I think the last thing I would say is how do you decide it all stems back to what it is that you want. So what I'm not hearing in the question is I'm hearing I want to be promoted, but I'm not hearing by what time, for what reason, in what type of role. So like, let's be more specific so that again, we can kick the tire around whether what it is that you want is possible in the context that you're in, or whether it necessitates you changing context or changing yourself, in which case you might need to go ask and get some feedback around what would you need to do to be able to hit those conditions right? And then you have to ask yourself whether you want to or not.

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[B]

Okay, next one. People trust me to get things done, but I'm rarely pulled into bigger picture conversations. How do you shift from being seen as a competent operator to being seen as a truly strategic leader? Yeah, I hear some variation of this all the time.

[D]

Yeah. Look, people are going to know you for what you show up as. Right? Maya Angelou said, if somebody shows you who they are, believe them. Okay.

[B]

Right.

[D]

So if what you are showing people, if what you are leading with is the doing, doing, doing in the weeds, Right. Where are you spending your time? But if where you're showing up and what you're showing is your most value is in the weeds or taking care of all the details, you're the person who does everything from planning the holiday party to making sure that everybody you know is taken care of, to staying up so that you can cover for everybody else. Guess what? That's what people are going to see you as. They're not going to see you as the big picture thinker. And so what do you do? I think a big thing is, you know what I tell my clients when they run into this is we got to go on a little bit of a PR campaign to change the perception of, of you that others might have. That doesn't just happen by showing them that you can do big picture thinking. Because guess what, people are also very habitual. If they're used to you doing everything, they're. You serve them very well. They're going to want you to continue to do that. Right. So I would say the place to start is not right away to say, all of a sudden I'm going to show up and do this strategic thinking, but to actually tell people that's what you want to be doing and offer it up and say, hey, there's this meeting next week or this project. I want to pick that up. Right. Boss, sponsor, peer or whatnot, so that you are actually A, letting them know that's what you want to do and then B, have a space, a platform where you can actually demonstrate those skills. Right. So a lot of people start when they want to do this. They automatically go to, I just need to start thinking more strategically. And I'm like, with whom and where? You know, because if you're just doing

[B]

it alone in your office doing a lot of work in the sentence.

[D]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So the first place, I think if you're stuck in a rut in terms of how you're perceived, you need to go tell people that, no, here's the other part of you. And you now want space to be able to show it. But don't just ask, right? Like, oh, where can I do it? Make recommendations. I see this is happening. Here's how I can contribute. Can I be a part of this? I'm going to show up however you can do it.

[C]

I was watching when there was a new CEO in a very large company and there was the deck chairs moving around them. And the person who achieved maybe the highest esteem in the new CEO's eyes, who would then come back and tell me that he really, he really saw great potential in the person, is he started asking the new CEO how he was thinking about strategic issues. So when they would have a one on one, he'd use five or ten of the minutes to say, just want to understand how are you thinking about this? So it was almost like taking an active role in the development of his own thinking by understanding this person's. And so let's make room for you to do it, but let's also develop the skills. And asking people how they think about something is such a non threatening way to be tutored without even saying, will you be my tutor? Like you just start asking it. So that's just one thing that comes to mind on how somebody might do it.

[D]

Absolutely.

[B]

I love that too, Francis, because we think of this PR campaign, Muriel, really, as like a campaign where we are, you know, doing lots of things and saying lots of things and speaking. But the power of the question too. You're also revealing what you are interested in. I think questions are huge and you are inviting other people into the conversations you want to have. So I do think that's really powerful.

[D]

Yeah, I mean, it's the ability to use the language too. Right.

[B]

Okay, next one. I'm expected to be steady for my team during uncertainty, but I'm not feeling steady myself. How do I keep doing my job without pretending or falling apart?

[D]

Yeah, I mean, this is very real right now for a lot of folks. It's so interesting to me because I think there's this whole definition of what does it actually mean to feel steady? And we feel steady during certain times and we don't feel steady when times are unsteady. And again, that to me is a loss of agency. Right. This is a situation of if you want to feel steady, then you have to ask yourself, you have to unpack for yourself. What is it that's making you feel unsteady? Is it what's going on out there or is it something within me? It goes Back again to those beliefs, right? How am I thinking about me? How am I thinking about others? How am I thinking about the situation that is making me feel unsteady? Because that didn't come out of nowhere. It's how I'm experiencing the world right now rather than what the world actually is. You know, it's our narration or the team or the organization. So that is often a place to start. And what I would suggest to this person is dig, dig a little deeper around. What is it that. How am I contributing to this feeling of unsteadiness that I have before you move on to, well, what can I do to make myself feel steadier? Right? And a lot of times, you know, the reason why that's important is because if you just move right away to like, this is where this whole notion of self care kind of bothers me because it's like, oh, just, you know, go get a massage and you'll feel better. Da, da, da, da. And you'll feel better. And in reality, I'm like, feeling steady is not about feeling better about what's happening. Right? Let's be really clear. Feeling steady is that even though there might be a lot of change happening around me, there might be a lot of things that bother me or that bother others. I can stand grounded in the moment so that I can move forward. And so I don't know this person who's asking, I would ask them, what can help you stand grounded? And that can look different for everyone, right? Oh, maybe it's, I need to, like, talk to a friend once a day. Maybe it's that I need to, you know, get a little bit more sleep. Maybe it's that, you know, whatever it might be for you. But what I'm not going to do because it would be irresponsible is say, look, here are the five tips to feel more steady. Do this, this and that. Because it is very unique to the individual. Which again brings me back to like, that's the agency. What's going to work for you? But the place to start is, is really asking yourself, what would make me, based on what I believe about steadiness, what would make me feel steady in this moment?

[B]

Yeah, Francis, I think it would be me going to the Bad Bunny concert in Madrid.

[C]

Ay.

[B]

Because it's just personal and she's a professional.

[C]

Right?

[D]

I'm just. And it's in your control because that's the caveat.

[B]

Tickets are still available.

[C]

I would like to just. This is a shout out to Anne's friends, please.

[D]

One of you.

[C]

So step up.

[D]

I don't want to go. I mean, you know, Madrid, bad bunny.

[B]

Like, just find you a nice hotel room. Frances, you don't have to go to the concert.

[D]

Okay, I like that part. Yeah. You don't have to go to the concert. There we go. There we go. But, you know, I think that it's also what's within your control. Right. Which is key. I'm glad you brought that up, because a lot of people say, well, I need everybody else to be this way, and then I'll feel steady. It doesn't work that way. At the end of the day, what this is really about is being a resource to yourself versus outsourcing what you need.

[B]

That's really powerful.

[D]

And that, to me, is a sign of maturity. Right. Is when you can start resourcing. Meaning. And by re. I love that word because it's coming back to source. I am the source. Right. Let me tap back into this again. Unleveraged asset that I have rather than outsource my needs. Not everyone likes when I say this, but I. A lot of times I feel like what I'm in the business of is helping folks mature. We've been conditioned to outsource all our needs. Right. Not just at work, but otherwise. But if you look at the research. If you look at even, you know, not just research in terms of leadership development, neuroscience and all that, you look at the wisdom, teachings, you know?

[B]

Right.

[D]

All of it points back to. No, no, no, no, no. How real growth and development and maturity happens is to be able to resource, not necessarily outsource all the time.

[B]

It's such beautiful framing, I think, on your work and the conversation you have been having with the world for decades. Really powerful. We could talk to you all day. All day.

[D]

I mean, maybe we should just go to Madrid.

[B]

Let's talk. Let's talk. Beautiful. I love it so much. Last question. This is a question we've started to ask all of our guests. What is one thing that you are fixated on right now? So an idea, a book, a piece of technology, a recipe.

[D]

I immediately went to, like, a show that I'm watching.

[C]

Oh, yeah, what's the show?

[D]

What's the show? You know? But then you started talking about work, and I'm like, but no, there's a thing. No, no, no.

[B]

This doesn't have to be deep. We're gonna end on a. The whole conversation is deep. We can end on a light note.

[D]

I mean, I am obsessed with this resource outsource thing right now as an idea, and it's living in my head. But I am obsessed right now with the show industry.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[D]

I'm a. I'm a late comer to the show. I'm only on season two. But I'm obsessed with it for so many different reasons. One, it's. It's an industry that I am very familiar with.

[B]

So financial services.

[D]

Financial services, specifically on the trade floor, but particularly the dynamics, the human dynamics of working in what feels like, you know, an impossible context and workplace to be in. I can look around at every organization that I've worked with and say this show mirrors a part of it to me. A reflection, again, maybe to an extreme, but a reflection of why so much suffering happens at work. Right. And I'm also obsessed with it because it shows the characters as real human beings in their rawness. And I think we forget that we are humans at work. You know, we do not all of a sudden stop being humans when we come into work. And so for all those reasons, I'm very obsessed with this show. There's so much to learn from it.

[B]

We're going to end it there. I think we need a little more escapism in your life. Which brings us back to Bad Bunny Madrid. April, we're going to talk. Muriel, thank you so much for coming on Fixable. This was actually super fun for us and we are so delighted to see you.

[D]

Loved every meeting. Thank you. Thank you both. Really appreciate you.

[C]

Thank you so much for listening to this episode. Your participation helps us make great episodes like this one. So please keep reaching out directly if you want to figure out any questions about your workplace problem together. Send us a message, email us, call

[B]

us, text [e-mail] or 234- Fixable. That's 234-349-2253. Fixable is a podcast from ted. It's hosted by me, Anne Morris, and me, Frances Fry. This episode was produced by Rahima Nassa from Pushkin Industries. Our team includes Constanza Gallardo, Banban Chang, Daniela Balaurasso and Roxanne Hylash.

[C]

And our show was mixed by Louis at Storyyard.

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