Fixable – How to Outsmart Bias at Work (Re-Release)

Podcast: Fixable
Hosts: Anne Morriss & Frances Frei
Guest Caller (Pseudonym): Elizabeth
Date: January 20, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Anne Morriss (CEO, leadership coach, best-selling author) and Frances Frei (Harvard Business Professor, leadership coach, and Anne’s wife) coach “Elizabeth,” a woman thriving in the male-dominated roofing and construction industry but facing persistent gender bias—from both insurance adjusters and clients. The episode explores the real impact of workplace bias, innovative coping strategies, agency in hostile systems, and practical experiments for building a robust business despite structural inequality.

Key Themes and Discussion Points

1. The Power of Personal Narratives at Work

Opening Reflection—Anne and Frances discuss how the stories we tell ourselves shape our workplace performance, especially when feeling disempowered.
- Anne: “I think it is the most powerful work…particularly in moments where we're feeling disempowered.” ([02:27])
- Byron Katie’s Four Questions are introduced as a tool for interrogating limiting narratives (Is it true? Can I be sure it’s true? How do I react when I believe it? Who would I be without this story?).
- Anne: “The liberation happens with the follow up questions…who would I be without this story?” ([05:04])

2. Caller’s Story: Navigating Gender Bias in Construction

Elizabeth’s Background—Started in big roofing companies, then launched her own insurance liaison business during the pandemic.
Key Challenge:
- Dismissed by (mostly male) desk adjusters and clients with statements like “you probably just made up those codes,” and labeled the “secretary” or “office girl.” ([12:04])
Brilliant Experimentation:
- Ran a “gender switch” test by having her younger brother (a man) call the same adjuster with identical information—his claim was accepted without question.
- Anne: “Really beautifully designed experiment…we applaud you from the research side.” ([14:35])

3. Dynamic of Bias in Ongoing Relationships

Repeat Interactions Lower Bias: Elizabeth notes repeat interactions with local adjusters or clients reduce gender friction, allowing her competence to shine through.
- Frances: “Because they have a chance to see your competence and you present just for our listeners as wildly competent.” ([16:58])
- Elizabeth: “I would say so, yes.” ([16:55])

4. Reframing the Value Proposition

Contractor Side Success:
- Men in the industry are more willing to hire her after a male colleague vouches for her, even though she’s been explaining the same value.
- Elizabeth: “I almost had to have a man vouch for me in order to get a new client.” ([18:32])
Adjuster Side:
- Frances pushes Elizabeth to clarify and explicitly communicate the value she brings to insurance adjusters beyond just providing documents.
  - Frances: “I think that you are hiding your value from people and that permits them to get distracted by silly things.” ([23:14])
  - Suggests framing her communications as: “I can save you time, reduce rework, and ensure you won’t be flagged in an audit.” ([23:57])

5. Creative Experiments to Outsmart Bias

Gamifying the Problem:
- Anne proposes treating structural bias like an entrepreneurial puzzle or video game villain to be outmaneuvered, not internalized.
  - Anne: “How can you outsmart Demon here?...Are there ways to even use this to your advantage?” ([27:28])
- Ideas Explored:
  - Using gender-neutral email signatures or having a “male assistant” send emails to see if it impacts responsiveness ([28:40])
  - Leveraging male intermediaries for initial sales outreach, then delivering the value herself ([30:39])
  - Building a network of allies and intermediaries—mirroring how businesses grow anyway
    - Frances: “Of course you want to have a network…because you don’t have to improve the quality of what you do. We just want to improve the reach of what you do.” ([30:39])

6. Embracing Agency and Experimentation

No Apologies for What Works:
- Elizabeth expresses concern that relying on male colleagues might compromise her independence.
  - Frances: “You are going to have ten or a hundred times the business… Your ambition is greater than that…you’re building your sales network.” ([32:00])
- Anne and Frances urge her to run quick, low-commitment experiments and be unapologetic about creative adaptations.
  - Anne: “You don't know if they're good ideas or bad ideas, but it doesn't mean that you are signing up permanently for this.” ([32:35])
Elizabeth’s Takeaway:
- “Don't be apologetic for having to do the tricks and the things…in order to get my point across or my value across. If I have to use somebody, use somebody.” ([33:25])

Highlights & Notable Quotes

The Personal Experience of Bias

Elizabeth, on being dismissed: “I've been called…the secretary, the office girl…I’m like, well, actually, I'm not.” ([12:04])

Designing “Gender Experiments”

Elizabeth: “I actually had my brother…call and speak to this guy and…everything was fine. And I was just like, wow. Just like, that is just mind blowing to me.” ([14:10])

Agency and Structure

Frances: “This issue of bias and first impressions comes up…for people in so many different settings. And it's not just about gender…In our experience, one way to move forward is to own the agency you do have in this flawed system.” ([21:12])
Anne: “There’s nothing like wild success to make this a non-issue.” ([24:25])

Gamifying the Challenge

Anne: “I almost want to gamify this…this is like one of the demons in the video game that you gotta deal with, but you're fucking Elizabeth so like you can handle it.” ([27:28])

Unapologetic Innovation

Frances: “I want you to be unapologetic about it. You're building your sales network, okay.” ([32:00])

Actionable Takeaways & Advice

For Outsmarting Bias at Work

Explicitly Frame Your Value: Be overt in communication with skeptics—address what’s in it for them, clearly and concisely.
Leverage Allies and Networks: Use supporters, even male intermediaries, if it helps get your foot in the door or amplifies your message.
Gamify and Experiment: Treat every tactic as an experiment. Use gender-neutral signatures, delegate first-contact outreach, and gather data on what works.
Own Your Agency: Don’t apologize for solving problems creatively or for navigating a broken system as you build something bigger.
Build Repeat Interactions: Whenever possible, increase repeat engagements to let your competence erode bias over time.

Anne’s Final Thought—Engage with the Best Version of Others

Frances: “Engage with the best version of someone…You can get super defensive, or you can interact with the best version of the person and all of the aggression goes away.” ([37:36])

Timestamps for Key Segments

Opening reflections on power of self-narrative: [02:10] – [05:40]
Elizabeth’s context and challenge: [09:14] – [12:48]
Testing for gender bias with “brother experiment”: [13:00] – [14:35]
Exploring bias in ongoing vs. new relationships: [16:43] – [17:04]
Value proposition and reframing: [19:44] – [24:25]
Running creative “bias hacks”: [27:28] – [31:51]
Advice on network-building & unapologetic scaling: [32:00] – [34:09]
Reflection and “engaging with best version” recap: [37:04] – [39:21]

Tone and Overall Take

Fast-paced, candid, encouraging, and highly practical—the episode champions both agency and self-compassion. Anne and Frances model creative resilience, humor, and collective problem-solving in the face of systemic obstacles, leaving listeners inspired and equipped with actionable tools.

For more workplace problem-solving, call the Fixable hotline anytime at 234-FIXABLE (234-349-2253).

Fixable – How to Outsmart Bias at Work (Re-Release)

Podcast: Fixable
Hosts: Anne Morriss & Frances Frei
Guest Caller (Pseudonym): Elizabeth
Date: January 20, 2025

Episode Overview

Key Themes and Discussion Points

1. The Power of Personal Narratives at Work

Opening Reflection—Anne and Frances discuss how the stories we tell ourselves shape our workplace performance, especially when feeling disempowered.
- Anne: “I think it is the most powerful work…particularly in moments where we're feeling disempowered.” ([02:27])
- Byron Katie’s Four Questions are introduced as a tool for interrogating limiting narratives (Is it true? Can I be sure it’s true? How do I react when I believe it? Who would I be without this story?).
- Anne: “The liberation happens with the follow up questions…who would I be without this story?” ([05:04])

2. Caller’s Story: Navigating Gender Bias in Construction

Elizabeth’s Background—Started in big roofing companies, then launched her own insurance liaison business during the pandemic.
Key Challenge:
- Dismissed by (mostly male) desk adjusters and clients with statements like “you probably just made up those codes,” and labeled the “secretary” or “office girl.” ([12:04])
Brilliant Experimentation:
- Ran a “gender switch” test by having her younger brother (a man) call the same adjuster with identical information—his claim was accepted without question.
- Anne: “Really beautifully designed experiment…we applaud you from the research side.” ([14:35])

3. Dynamic of Bias in Ongoing Relationships

Repeat Interactions Lower Bias: Elizabeth notes repeat interactions with local adjusters or clients reduce gender friction, allowing her competence to shine through.
- Frances: “Because they have a chance to see your competence and you present just for our listeners as wildly competent.” ([16:58])
- Elizabeth: “I would say so, yes.” ([16:55])

4. Reframing the Value Proposition

Contractor Side Success:
- Men in the industry are more willing to hire her after a male colleague vouches for her, even though she’s been explaining the same value.
- Elizabeth: “I almost had to have a man vouch for me in order to get a new client.” ([18:32])
Adjuster Side:
- Frances pushes Elizabeth to clarify and explicitly communicate the value she brings to insurance adjusters beyond just providing documents.
  - Frances: “I think that you are hiding your value from people and that permits them to get distracted by silly things.” ([23:14])
  - Suggests framing her communications as: “I can save you time, reduce rework, and ensure you won’t be flagged in an audit.” ([23:57])

5. Creative Experiments to Outsmart Bias

Gamifying the Problem:
- Anne proposes treating structural bias like an entrepreneurial puzzle or video game villain to be outmaneuvered, not internalized.
  - Anne: “How can you outsmart Demon here?...Are there ways to even use this to your advantage?” ([27:28])
- Ideas Explored:
  - Using gender-neutral email signatures or having a “male assistant” send emails to see if it impacts responsiveness ([28:40])
  - Leveraging male intermediaries for initial sales outreach, then delivering the value herself ([30:39])
  - Building a network of allies and intermediaries—mirroring how businesses grow anyway
    - Frances: “Of course you want to have a network…because you don’t have to improve the quality of what you do. We just want to improve the reach of what you do.” ([30:39])

6. Embracing Agency and Experimentation

No Apologies for What Works:
- Elizabeth expresses concern that relying on male colleagues might compromise her independence.
  - Frances: “You are going to have ten or a hundred times the business… Your ambition is greater than that…you’re building your sales network.” ([32:00])
- Anne and Frances urge her to run quick, low-commitment experiments and be unapologetic about creative adaptations.
  - Anne: “You don't know if they're good ideas or bad ideas, but it doesn't mean that you are signing up permanently for this.” ([32:35])
Elizabeth’s Takeaway:
- “Don't be apologetic for having to do the tricks and the things…in order to get my point across or my value across. If I have to use somebody, use somebody.” ([33:25])

Highlights & Notable Quotes

The Personal Experience of Bias

Elizabeth, on being dismissed: “I've been called…the secretary, the office girl…I’m like, well, actually, I'm not.” ([12:04])

Designing “Gender Experiments”

Elizabeth: “I actually had my brother…call and speak to this guy and…everything was fine. And I was just like, wow. Just like, that is just mind blowing to me.” ([14:10])

Agency and Structure

Frances: “This issue of bias and first impressions comes up…for people in so many different settings. And it's not just about gender…In our experience, one way to move forward is to own the agency you do have in this flawed system.” ([21:12])
Anne: “There’s nothing like wild success to make this a non-issue.” ([24:25])

Gamifying the Challenge

Anne: “I almost want to gamify this…this is like one of the demons in the video game that you gotta deal with, but you're fucking Elizabeth so like you can handle it.” ([27:28])

Unapologetic Innovation

Frances: “I want you to be unapologetic about it. You're building your sales network, okay.” ([32:00])

Actionable Takeaways & Advice

For Outsmarting Bias at Work

Explicitly Frame Your Value: Be overt in communication with skeptics—address what’s in it for them, clearly and concisely.
Leverage Allies and Networks: Use supporters, even male intermediaries, if it helps get your foot in the door or amplifies your message.
Gamify and Experiment: Treat every tactic as an experiment. Use gender-neutral signatures, delegate first-contact outreach, and gather data on what works.
Own Your Agency: Don’t apologize for solving problems creatively or for navigating a broken system as you build something bigger.
Build Repeat Interactions: Whenever possible, increase repeat engagements to let your competence erode bias over time.

Anne’s Final Thought—Engage with the Best Version of Others

Frances: “Engage with the best version of someone…You can get super defensive, or you can interact with the best version of the person and all of the aggression goes away.” ([37:36])

Timestamps for Key Segments

Opening reflections on power of self-narrative: [02:10] – [05:40]
Elizabeth’s context and challenge: [09:14] – [12:48]
Testing for gender bias with “brother experiment”: [13:00] – [14:35]
Exploring bias in ongoing vs. new relationships: [16:43] – [17:04]
Value proposition and reframing: [19:44] – [24:25]
Running creative “bias hacks”: [27:28] – [31:51]
Advice on network-building & unapologetic scaling: [32:00] – [34:09]
Reflection and “engaging with best version” recap: [37:04] – [39:21]

Tone and Overall Take

For more workplace problem-solving, call the Fixable hotline anytime at 234-FIXABLE (234-349-2253).

How to outsmart bias at work (Re-Release)

Summary

Fixable – How to Outsmart Bias at Work (Re-Release)

Episode Overview

Key Themes and Discussion Points

1. The Power of Personal Narratives at Work

2. Caller’s Story: Navigating Gender Bias in Construction

3. Dynamic of Bias in Ongoing Relationships

4. Reframing the Value Proposition

5. Creative Experiments to Outsmart Bias

6. Embracing Agency and Experimentation

Highlights & Notable Quotes

The Personal Experience of Bias

Designing “Gender Experiments”

Agency and Structure

Gamifying the Challenge

Unapologetic Innovation

Actionable Takeaways & Advice

For Outsmarting Bias at Work

Anne’s Final Thought—Engage with the Best Version of Others

Timestamps for Key Segments

Tone and Overall Take

Transcript

Summary

Fixable – How to Outsmart Bias at Work (Re-Release)

Episode Overview

Key Themes and Discussion Points

1. The Power of Personal Narratives at Work

2. Caller’s Story: Navigating Gender Bias in Construction

3. Dynamic of Bias in Ongoing Relationships

4. Reframing the Value Proposition

5. Creative Experiments to Outsmart Bias

6. Embracing Agency and Experimentation

Highlights & Notable Quotes

The Personal Experience of Bias

Designing “Gender Experiments”

Agency and Structure

Gamifying the Challenge

Unapologetic Innovation

Actionable Takeaways & Advice

For Outsmarting Bias at Work

Anne’s Final Thought—Engage with the Best Version of Others

Timestamps for Key Segments

Tone and Overall Take