How to outsmart bias at work (Re-Release)

Summary

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Fixable – How to Outsmart Bias at Work (Re-Release)

Podcast: Fixable
Hosts: Anne Morriss & Frances Frei
Guest Caller (Pseudonym): Elizabeth
Date: January 20, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Anne Morriss (CEO, leadership coach, best-selling author) and Frances Frei (Harvard Business Professor, leadership coach, and Anne’s wife) coach “Elizabeth,” a woman thriving in the male-dominated roofing and construction industry but facing persistent gender bias—from both insurance adjusters and clients. The episode explores the real impact of workplace bias, innovative coping strategies, agency in hostile systems, and practical experiments for building a robust business despite structural inequality.

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Key Themes and Discussion Points

1. The Power of Personal Narratives at Work

• Opening Reflection—Anne and Frances discuss how the stories we tell ourselves shape our workplace performance, especially when feeling disempowered.
  • Anne: “I think it is the most powerful work…particularly in moments where we're feeling disempowered.” ([02:27])
  • Byron Katie’s Four Questions are introduced as a tool for interrogating limiting narratives (Is it true? Can I be sure it’s true? How do I react when I believe it? Who would I be without this story?).
  • Anne: “The liberation happens with the follow up questions…who would I be without this story?” ([05:04])

2. Caller’s Story: Navigating Gender Bias in Construction

• Elizabeth’s Background—Started in big roofing companies, then launched her own insurance liaison business during the pandemic.
• Key Challenge:
  • Dismissed by (mostly male) desk adjusters and clients with statements like “you probably just made up those codes,” and labeled the “secretary” or “office girl.” ([12:04])
• Brilliant Experimentation:
  • Ran a “gender switch” test by having her younger brother (a man) call the same adjuster with identical information—his claim was accepted without question.
  • Anne: “Really beautifully designed experiment…we applaud you from the research side.” ([14:35])

3. Dynamic of Bias in Ongoing Relationships

• Repeat Interactions Lower Bias: Elizabeth notes repeat interactions with local adjusters or clients reduce gender friction, allowing her competence to shine through.
  • Frances: “Because they have a chance to see your competence and you present just for our listeners as wildly competent.” ([16:58])
  • Elizabeth: “I would say so, yes.” ([16:55])

4. Reframing the Value Proposition

• Contractor Side Success:
  • Men in the industry are more willing to hire her after a male colleague vouches for her, even though she’s been explaining the same value.
  • Elizabeth: “I almost had to have a man vouch for me in order to get a new client.” ([18:32])
• Adjuster Side:
  • Frances pushes Elizabeth to clarify and explicitly communicate the value she brings to insurance adjusters beyond just providing documents.
    • Frances: “I think that you are hiding your value from people and that permits them to get distracted by silly things.” ([23:14])
    • Suggests framing her communications as: “I can save you time, reduce rework, and ensure you won’t be flagged in an audit.” ([23:57])

5. Creative Experiments to Outsmart Bias

• Gamifying the Problem:
  • Anne proposes treating structural bias like an entrepreneurial puzzle or video game villain to be outmaneuvered, not internalized.
    • Anne: “How can you outsmart Demon here?...Are there ways to even use this to your advantage?” ([27:28])
  • Ideas Explored:
    • Using gender-neutral email signatures or having a “male assistant” send emails to see if it impacts responsiveness ([28:40])
    • Leveraging male intermediaries for initial sales outreach, then delivering the value herself ([30:39])
    • Building a network of allies and intermediaries—mirroring how businesses grow anyway
      • Frances: “Of course you want to have a network…because you don’t have to improve the quality of what you do. We just want to improve the reach of what you do.” ([30:39])

6. Embracing Agency and Experimentation

• No Apologies for What Works:
  • Elizabeth expresses concern that relying on male colleagues might compromise her independence.
    • Frances: “You are going to have ten or a hundred times the business… Your ambition is greater than that…you’re building your sales network.” ([32:00])
  • Anne and Frances urge her to run quick, low-commitment experiments and be unapologetic about creative adaptations.
    • Anne: “You don't know if they're good ideas or bad ideas, but it doesn't mean that you are signing up permanently for this.” ([32:35])
• Elizabeth’s Takeaway:
  • “Don't be apologetic for having to do the tricks and the things…in order to get my point across or my value across. If I have to use somebody, use somebody.” ([33:25])

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Highlights & Notable Quotes

The Personal Experience of Bias

• Elizabeth, on being dismissed: “I've been called…the secretary, the office girl…I’m like, well, actually, I'm not.” ([12:04])

Designing “Gender Experiments”

• Elizabeth: “I actually had my brother…call and speak to this guy and…everything was fine. And I was just like, wow. Just like, that is just mind blowing to me.” ([14:10])

Agency and Structure

• Frances: “This issue of bias and first impressions comes up…for people in so many different settings. And it's not just about gender…In our experience, one way to move forward is to own the agency you do have in this flawed system.” ([21:12])
• Anne: “There’s nothing like wild success to make this a non-issue.” ([24:25])

Gamifying the Challenge

• Anne: “I almost want to gamify this…this is like one of the demons in the video game that you gotta deal with, but you're fucking Elizabeth so like you can handle it.” ([27:28])

Unapologetic Innovation

• Frances: “I want you to be unapologetic about it. You're building your sales network, okay.” ([32:00])

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Actionable Takeaways & Advice

For Outsmarting Bias at Work

• Explicitly Frame Your Value: Be overt in communication with skeptics—address what’s in it for them, clearly and concisely.
• Leverage Allies and Networks: Use supporters, even male intermediaries, if it helps get your foot in the door or amplifies your message.
• Gamify and Experiment: Treat every tactic as an experiment. Use gender-neutral signatures, delegate first-contact outreach, and gather data on what works.
• Own Your Agency: Don’t apologize for solving problems creatively or for navigating a broken system as you build something bigger.
• Build Repeat Interactions: Whenever possible, increase repeat engagements to let your competence erode bias over time.

Anne’s Final Thought—Engage with the Best Version of Others

• Frances: “Engage with the best version of someone…You can get super defensive, or you can interact with the best version of the person and all of the aggression goes away.” ([37:36])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening reflections on power of self-narrative: [02:10] – [05:40]
• Elizabeth’s context and challenge: [09:14] – [12:48]
• Testing for gender bias with “brother experiment”: [13:00] – [14:35]
• Exploring bias in ongoing vs. new relationships: [16:43] – [17:04]
• Value proposition and reframing: [19:44] – [24:25]
• Running creative “bias hacks”: [27:28] – [31:51]
• Advice on network-building & unapologetic scaling: [32:00] – [34:09]
• Reflection and “engaging with best version” recap: [37:04] – [39:21]

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Tone and Overall Take

Fast-paced, candid, encouraging, and highly practical—the episode champions both agency and self-compassion. Anne and Frances model creative resilience, humor, and collective problem-solving in the face of systemic obstacles, leaving listeners inspired and equipped with actionable tools.

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For more workplace problem-solving, call the Fixable hotline anytime at 234-FIXABLE (234-349-2253).

Transcript

[Anne Morris]

Hello everyone. We heard you loud and clear that you wanted advice on a special topic and we have some exciting news for you. We're now planning a series on Fixable to help you with your confidence at work and we need your help to make it happen. What are your most pressing questions and problems when it comes to building and maintaining confidence in your job? Please give us a call at 234 Fixable. That's 234-349-2253 and let us know what's on your mind. We can't wait to hear from you.

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[Elizabeth]

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[Anne Morris]

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[Frances Frey]

Yep.

[Anne Morris]

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[Frances Frey]

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[Anne Morris]

Hello Frances.

[Frances Frey]

Hey beautiful.

[Anne Morris]

I want to start off today by talking a little bit about one of my favorite subjects, which I know does.

[Frances Frey]

Not narrow it down at all.

[Anne Morris]

I could be landing this plane in a number of locations, but it's that I want to talk about the stories we tell ourselves.

[Frances Frey]

Oh yeah.

[Anne Morris]

And how they impact our ability to.

[Frances Frey]

Show up, which is in which remains incredible to me.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah, I think it is the most powerful work capital W we can do, particularly in moments where we're feeling disempowered. Listeners to this show will know that I spend A lot of time thinking about this and working with people on it, and in particular working with people on how we all can get tripped up or stuck in certain narratives that don't always serve us or our ambitions.

[Frances Frey]

Yeah, we can really get in our own way. And what's amazing to me is we simply change the way we think and then all kinds of good things happen.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah, I was reflecting on this because I just had a great time with an audience, spent an hour with them, achieved all of my hopes and dreams for their experience. They laughed, they were tears, they cried. They thought about the world differently. And there was a point in my career, it wasn't that long ago, where I was given the feedback by my investors that I was not effective in the front of the room. And that story, like really, it really.

[Frances Frey]

Hit, it held you back for a while.

[Anne Morris]

And it wasn't that it was not true because I wasn't being particularly effective, but the way that it was framed, I am not effective.

[Frances Frey]

It was almost like it was a character trait.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah, it was framed as a character trait. And there was no possibility in that framing. And one of the tools that was really helpful to me was a really simple sequence of sentences that the great Byron Katie. So I adore this woman and I think she's a force for good in the world. She has a website called thework.com, where you can find a bunch of tools, including this one. But it's the four essential questions. And it starts with whatever the story is, I'm not good at this, this person doesn't respect me, or whatever it is. You start with the question and the first thing that she pushes you to ask is, is it true? And of course our answer is always, of course it is. Of course it's fucking true. That's why I am suffering. And then the second question is, is it really true? But then the liberation happens with the follow up questions which are, how do you react when you believe this thought? Who are you?

[Frances Frey]

When I believe, defensive.

[Anne Morris]

When I believe this story, limited, defensive. Like incapable of solving the problem because everyone else is doing it to me, is doing it to me and has the power. And then you get to the liberation moment is, who would I be without this story?

[Frances Frey]

Oh, yeah.

[Anne Morris]

And if I start replacing it with a story that's more productive, more empowering, or there's more freedom of movement that's potentially more accurate, you know, who do I get to be in that story? And it's really hard to do this on your own.

[Frances Frey]

Yeah, actually, let's go with impossible.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah. And it is that to me. That's why this kind of work is so exciting. So, Frances, let's get into it. This is fixable. Anne I'm Anne Morris. I'm a company builder and leadership coach.

[Frances Frey]

And I'm Frances Frey. I'm a professor at the Harvard Business School. And I'm Ann's wife.

[Anne Morris]

On this show we believe that meaningful change happens fast. Anything is fixable and solutions are often just a single brave conversation away.

[Frances Frey]

Today we have Elizabeth, not her real name, who is living in a very challenging narrative. Let's take a listen to her voicemail.

[Elizabeth]

Hi Anna Francias. I am calling because I am a female in a male dominated industry, roofing and construction. I'm met with resistance from male desk adjusters or male field adjusters that think that I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to insurance work scopes. And I'm also kind of met with resistance from trying to get new clients, them thinking that I wouldn't be a good fit because I'm a girl and I don't know what it takes to to put on a roof. So any advice, any type of verbiage I should be using out there to help me get my point across that just because I'm a woman that I actually do know what I'm talking about.

[Frances Frey]

Oh, this is gonna be awesome. Because how do you overcome first impressions? And are they really first impressions?

[Anne Morris]

Yeah. No. There's a very powerful and sticky story at the center of this that is not necessarily untrue. But where can she find some freedom of movement here? Even in a world where the patriarchy is real?

[Frances Frey]

I want it to be not true in the rearview mirror.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah. Yes. I love that as a goal.

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[Elizabeth]

Well, thank you. It's so great to talk to you guys.

[Anne Morris]

Before we jump into the. We listened to your voicemail. We're actually quite eager to dive in, but we're gonna try to have the discipline to step back and capture some of the context first. So what is the work that you do?

[Elizabeth]

Previous in the past, I had worked specifically for larger roofing companies kind of all around. I was what you call like a storm chaser. So there would be a big hail storm somewhere.

[Anne Morris]

A vivid image.

[Elizabeth]

Yeah, I'm not chasing the tornadoes, just the ha. So there would be a big storm and I would go and I would help the guys set up an office and I would handle all of the day to day stuff, the paperwork, the insurance work scopes, and kind of help the homeowners, like, understand their insurance policy and kind of what was happening and all the steps that were going on over the pandemic. I started my own company because I noticed that there was a real need for people like me who understood the insurance process and could communicate what was needed to the insurance company as well as to the contractors.

[Anne Morris]

So how do you think about who pays you for your time and talent? Right.

[Elizabeth]

My clients are roofers, so I get paid directly from the roofing contractors.

[Anne Morris]

Got it. So you run interference between the roofers and the insurance companies on behalf of the roofers. And what's been the biggest surprise for you in going out on your own?

[Elizabeth]

How do I put this? You know, I've always had success working with one intern, you know, one roofer at a time. And so I thought it would be pretty easy because he gave me great, like, feedback and was like, very supportive and everything like that. And I guess the biggest reality check I had was going on on my own was like, not everybody's like that. Not everyone thinks that women can be in this industry and handle this job and like, know what they're talking about or know how to put on a roof. And so that was kind of like the first big, like, oh, hey, not everybody as great as my former employer.

[Anne Morris]

In your voicemail, you said you were experiencing some friction with both adjusters and clients. Which of the two is a bigger source of pain for you right now?

[Elizabeth]

Right now, I would say adjusters. I would say from the insurance side of things, it's definitely them. And I think there's even been national news stories about this right now about insurance companies pulling out of areas not wanting to pay claims. Claims and, you know, homeowners insurance policies are going through the roof. So they are looking for every little thing and trick in the book to not pay out claims like they're supposed to. And so that's kind of like my biggest hurdle I'm trying to overcome at the moment.

[Anne Morris]

And is that tension inherent to the job? Like, is that a structural tension where you're always going to want them to pay more and they're always going to want to pay less? Is that a fair way to think about it?

[Elizabeth]

I would say yes. And I would say some insurance carriers more than others, but yes, that's just kind of the name of the game. And I'm okay with that to a certain, certain degree. But, you know, it's. It's frustrating, I guess you could say, because when I know that I'm right, but I'm dismissed a lot because, you know, I'm. I've been called, you know, the secretary, the office girl, you know, the all. All the. I'm like, well, actually, I'm not.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah, so that's what I was going to get into. So what has led you to conclude that that gender is, Is an issue here?

[Elizabeth]

So specifically from an adjuster and insurance carrier side, I have examples on both sides. But from the adjuster and insurance carrier side, um, this happened a couple of months ago. I called in about a claim and I was like, hey, you know, these things need to be covered because they're code. They're building code requirements. And I cited him the codes in my initial supplement that I sent in and invoice that I'd sent in to him. And he was like, well, you probably just made up those codes. And I was like, you can't really do that. You can't make up codes. You can't Just, you know, throw some random letters and numbers in there. Like they're, you know, you could Google and see that I'm telling you the correct thing. And I was like, you know what? I'm gonna try something. So I actually had my brother who is 12 years younger than me, and he's in college. And, you know, I kind of have taught him the ropes along the way just in case he decided this is an industry he wants to get into. But I was like, why don't you call and speak to this guy and kind of see how he approaches you and just act like you're the sales guy on it, like you're the contractor. And he did, and he would tell him, hey, this is. Hey, man, this is building code stuff. You know, we got to do this, this, and this. And he was like, okay, yeah, yeah, I see what you're saying, and approved it, sent it off, and everything was fine. And I was just like, wow. Just like, that is just mind blowing to me.

[Anne Morris]

That.

[Elizabeth]

That just happened.

[Anne Morris]

Super creative solution.

[Frances Frey]

Super creative experiment. Like, you got, like, Anne's question. How'd you know it was gender? Oh, you know it was gender.

[Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Anne Morris]

Really beautifully designed experiments.

[Frances Frey]

Really beautifully designed experiments.

[Anne Morris]

We applaud you from the research side.

[Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah.

[Anne Morris]

All right, so I want to ask a couple of kind of intentionally provocative questions. We just want to get you into the posture of solving problems. But I want to ask Frances if you have any other context questions.

[Frances Frey]

I do have a context question. So how often do you have the same adjuster?

[Elizabeth]

Actually, quite frequently. And for certain insurance companies, so this kind of gets into the weeds a little bit. But there are certain insurance companies that have local adjusters, and so they circulate in the same areas all the time that I'm dealing with. There are bigger insurance companies that have what we call third party ladder assist. So it's just some company that they've hired some guy with a ladder to go out there and look at a roof and send them pictures back to the office, to the desk adjuster and say, here are the pictures. Make a decision. So no one really that works for the insurance company is actually going out to look at the roof. And so those guys are forever overturning. It's never the same one twice. So I would say it's about 60, 40 right now when it comes to local adjusters versus, you know, some person that I'll never see again.

[Frances Frey]

And is there when you have the gender dynamics, you know, the odd gender dynamic, when your brother came in and it Was. Okay. Was that a local adjuster or a third party?

[Elizabeth]

It was. Well, it was a desk adjuster, so going.

[Frances Frey]

The desk adjuster. Sorry. How much repeat interactions do you have? How many repeat interactions do you have there? Is it never repeat?

[Elizabeth]

Yeah, never. Little to none. Little to none. Because it's always. They have such high turnover rates and, you know, it gets reassigned all the time within their system. It's kind of like you're always chasing the next adjuster. You know, it's always the next one. The next one.

[Anne Morris]

And then just to, I think, make explicit what you're saying, have you found that in. When you. In relationships that are deeper than one touch, is gender less of an issue?

[Elizabeth]

I would say so, yes.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah.

[Frances Frey]

Because they have a chance to see.

[Anne Morris]

Your competence and you present just for our listeners as wildly competent.

[Frances Frey]

Wildly competent. I'm ready to just give you all of the things.

[Anne Morris]

Can I ask a couple of provocative questions? Again, I'm just talking to your subconscious here, just to open your heart and mind as we get ready to start thinking through solutions. Has your gender ever helped you in this role in any way? The fact that you're one of the few women walking around this space.

[Elizabeth]

I would, I would not. None that I can think of. Off the top of my head. I would say in the past when I worked for a, like, one single roofing company, it helped me with homeowners. It helped me kind of build relationships with them more or less so that the guys were kind of more likely to get the job, you know, past the cells and everything. They felt more comfortable having, you know, making sure that someone was driving the boat. Right. Someone who was organized at the office and, you know, everything like that. So I would say that was more. I think that's the only time that I can think of that has really helped me.

[Anne Morris]

Perfect. If our conversation today were to be wildly successful and helpful to you, what would that look like?

[Elizabeth]

I would love to just know how to hand. Not really handle these things. I. I feel like I, you know, I do yoga and not run every day to kind of like burn off that steam when I do get so mad.

[Anne Morris]

Metabolize some of this.

[Elizabeth]

Yeah, correct. But it's more about when I'm in these conversations with these men, how to, I don't say be combative, but overcome those obstacles and also get new clients, you know, from the other side of things, not just the adjusters, but like, from a client point of view, getting these roofers, these contractors to trust me. You know, for example, I, I just got a New client that I had initially spoke with about six months ago, and he was like, no, you know, I can do it. I'm fine. I got it. And then he was told by a public adjuster that I work very close with, who is a man who was like, hey, man, you should really use her. She's great. You know, like, this is what she can do for you. And now. And now he's a client. So it's like, I almost had to have a man vouch for me in order to get a new client. And so I guess how to, you know, get new clients, but also when I'm talking to these adjusters, how to overcome those obstacles of being dismissed due to obvious, you know, being a female.

[Frances Frey]

So when the public adjuster was saying you were awesome, what things do you think they might have mentioned to this new client? Like, what. What make. What would some. What would a third party say is awesome about you?

[Elizabeth]

I actually have helped him on quite a few of his own claims. And so it was, hey, this is what she can do for you. She can get you some more money. And if she can't, she will explain why. She'll teach you to be a better inspector. So when you're going out to inspect these roofs, how to take the pictures that are needed in order to warrant these supplements. So we're talking fences, you know, gutters and kind of things like that that kind of add up all to one big claim. And not just the roof, you know, she coordinates directly with the insurance company and the adjuster. So you don't have to come home after being on a roof for 12 hours and sacrifice family time, you know, to get these invoicing supplements done. You know, let her handle that. So that's kind of his go to, you know, kind of speech when he. When he talked to these guys out in the field.

[Anne Morris]

That's an incredible value proposition.

[Elizabeth]

Yes. And that's what I've. I've told him, you know, I really appreciate. I do give him a referral fee for every time he sends me a guy. And so I appreciate that he sees the value in me and what I do.

[Anne Morris]

Awesome. All right, Francis, summarize where we are. Yeah.

[Frances Frey]

So this issue of biased and first impressions comes up again and again for people in so many different settings. And it's not just about gender. It can be about any kind of identity that's not stereotypically associated with a certain role. Men in nursing, people of color in the executive suite, and so on. So that's the issue I see here in Our experience, one way to move forward is to own the agency you do have in this flawed system and change your relationship with it. What I like about the problem is, Elizabeth, you're awesome. So now we just have to figure out how to reveal that to the various constituents. I want the end result to be that people are delighted when it's you and not someone else.

[Elizabeth]

Yes.

[Frances Frey]

So we know your value proposition to the contractors. Now I want to know how do you make the insurance adjuster's job dramatically better off to the point where even if they were bugged by gender, it wouldn't matter because they're so relieved that it's you. So what's the value proposition for them?

[Elizabeth]

I would say I feel like I try to do the best job that I can for helping the adjuster doing their job better. So I, in our software that we write up for invoices and supplements, I bold everything for them. So it really stands out like what I'm asking for. I attach any necessary pictures, I give them code references. So I think I feel like I do a pretty good job on giving them all the information up front in as much information as possible. Maybe it's too much. Maybe, maybe that's, you know, the issue. Maybe there's like I, I don't want to read this three paragraph email because, you know, but.

[Frances Frey]

So may I try something?

[Anne Morris]

Yeah. Can I ask you, Francis, as you do this, I want to label where you're going. Is it be so much better at your job that gender becomes a non issue? Is that where you're heading? Yeah.

[Frances Frey]

I think that you are hiding your value from people and that permits them to get distracted by silly things. I also have other comments on gender, but on this one in particular because even as you're talking, I'm having trouble understanding your value and I think once we can do that, you can do it pretty quickly. So that's got it. That's where I'm going with it. Is that so? For example, I think what you just said is to the adjuster, I can save you time and rework and make sure that if you get audited, because they must get audited, that it's never going to look like you overpaid. Now, I don't know if those are the right three things.

[Elizabeth]

Right. Yeah. No, I would say that's, you know, exactly. Because every time they pay out more money, they have to explain that to someone higher up as to why they paid out more money.

[Frances Frey]

So if that's the value proposition to them, I would use an overt framing in everything I'm doing and just try to focus on the clarity of those three things. So that's where I was going with it.

[Anne Morris]

Got it. Do you want to keep pushing on that? Are you ready to go through another door? So let me. We're going to push, we're going to throw a couple of threads out there and you pull on whatever one is interesting to you. And I totally agree with that thesis, by the way. Like there's nothing like wild success to like, you know, make this a non issue. And I think there's some real leverage here that you have because you are so good at what you do and making sure that other people, everyone in this, in this chain understands what you can do for them.

[Elizabeth]

I think that is great. Being more clear, concise. And when I'm emailing them instead of being like just introducing myself and being straight to the point and like I'm here to help you. You know, I'm here to help save you time. Yes.

[Frances Frey]

And save you rework.

[Elizabeth]

Yes.

[Frances Frey]

Like, yeah. Making it the value proposition. Super duper clear. Like you are on their side.

[Elizabeth]

Okay.

[Anne Morris]

All right, let me give you another thread to play with here. So obviously you can't control your gender. You can't control the existence of bias in your operating environment. You do have quite a bit of control over how you work with it and around it. I'm going back to the story of your brother. So I'm wondering if there are other ways to get you into a creative, almost like playful posture around this where it feels less personal. I almost wanna gamify this in some way, you know, where it's like, this is like one of the demons in the video game that you gotta deal with, but you're fucking Elizabeth so like you can handle it. So how can you outsmart demon here? Are there ways to like even use this to your advantage? Can you have a mail. A fake male assistant that emails in advance? You know, can we use your brother more creatively? You know, I, I worked in when I started my own company. Our investors were from the oil and gas industry. They had not interacted with a lady CEO. Yeah. In the offices where I pitched them. I remember having the thought as I was pitching that as they were looking at me like I was a total anomaly because that a woman hadn't been standing up in that room who was not delivering lunch or taking a message. And we had a fantastic, we ended up having a fantastic relationship. They ended up referring to me as the lady CEO in their portfolio, which I frickin loved, but it took us a while to all get to know each other. It took a willingness on their part to not turn me into a cartoon. It also took a willingness on my part to not turn them into a cartoon, which I was tempted to do on so many days when the relationship wasn't working. So I just.

[Elizabeth]

I.

[Anne Morris]

This is a thread around how do we get you into a mindset where, like, this is one of your entrepreneurial challenges, but you are up for the task.

[Elizabeth]

Elizabeth, that's a great idea. And I've even flirted with that idea before. When you say, like, gamify it a little bit, like taking my name off my email signature and just being this person behind an email and seeing what kind of response I get from that, you know, I kind of just being this mysterious person, you know, to the insurance company that, like, oh, this is just, you know, any other person that's emailing. And so I thought about that, but I didn't know if that would lose the personal touch. But I think that's. It's worth it, you know, it's. It's definitely worth a shot. Like, you know, having some mysterious male assistant, you know, that can email or call and be, you know, whatever that may look like to try to get neutral name. Yeah, yeah.

[Anne Morris]

Give you a gender neutral name or, I mean, or you use your initial, you know, your email address is E. Whatever. I mean, what I love about this is this is also you're running experiments. You're running experiments in, you know, slipping this incredible human Elizabeth under the fence. And you may have to get a little squirrely to get under that fence.

[Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Anne Morris]

And. And around that bias, are there other experiments you've considered?

[Elizabeth]

And as far as, like, getting new clients, I've even thought about, well, do I, you know, sub out that meeting work, you know, to my public adjuster friend, you know, or, you know, whatever that may look like, like, hey, go meet this man and y' all can do whatever it is. And then, you know, he can just kind of be the out there person and then I can just be back here and they can call me whenever it comes to. But like, that initial sales pitch, would it be better coming from a man, you know, than me?

[Anne Morris]

Can I respond to that? Yes. Yeah. Like, so I think we both got very excited. Yeah. Like, your alliance with this partner who really sees your value, I think is a really exciting starting place. So, like, what other experiments could you run with him? This public adjuster. In my own case, when I was building this, there was a point in the business when it was clear to me that I needed a male sales guy and I found someone right out of central, right out of central casting. He was gorgeous, charismatic, super talented. We became dear, dear friends and partners in building this business. And it was just a super, you know, I had pushed against people, you know, willing to accept me as a messenger. And I was like this, let's, let's just do it this way. And I never looked back.

[Frances Frey]

Well, and here's the part, Elizabeth, that I just got excited when you were saying it. You're looking for someone like you are the intermediary for people and you make it better. You create a win win. And now you're looking for an intermediary who can make it better and look for a win win. I think it makes perfect sense. And I, and I also don't think it's probably just the gender of this person. I think there's probably some other things going on. But I love the idea of you having an intermediary. You know, sometimes when we're a small business, a one person shop, we like to give the illusion of a larger business. And that is we create a network. And so you have this person as part of your network. But you know what? I can imagine you having five people as part of your network again, because you don't have to improve the quality of what you do. We just want to improve the reach of what you do. So of course you want to have a network. And if the network are people that you can leverage and that they can understand you and then they can describe who you are, I think it makes perfect sense. So I love that on the sales for the contractor side, okay, I just.

[Elizabeth]

Didn'T, I didn't want it to seem like, you know, I have to rely on, you know, this guy to like, go.

[Anne Morris]

It's like, yeah, here's the way to.

[Frances Frey]

Think about it, Elizabeth. You are going to have ten or a hundred times the business that you do now, and you will not be able to be both the deliverer of that business and the head of sales. So if you're going to both be the head of sales and the chief content officer, that can only be for a very small business. But your ambition is greater than that. So given that you, we know you need more people on the sales side, that's what you're doing now. So it's, it's, I want you to be unapologetic about it. You're building your sales network, okay.

[Anne Morris]

And we want to give you like you've given us Casually, as an aside, like 10 great ideas that have occurred to you and you've discarded. And I also want to give you license to run real experiments around those ideas. You don't know if they're good ideas or bad ideas, but it doesn't mean that you are signing up permanently for this. So, like, what would a good experiment look like? Can you run a quick pilot on whether, you know, partnering in this way or signing an email in this way is helpful to you? There's no way to know until you try. Okay, so, Elizabeth, we could have this conversation all day with you about how to build this business, but let me check in. How you feeling about slaying the dragon of gender?

[Elizabeth]

I feel a lot better about it now. You know, I really. The biggest thing is, like, don't be apologetic for having to do the tricks and the things and in order to get my point across or my value across, like, if I have to use somebody, use somebody. Like, it just helps me.

[Frances Frey]

Part of your network. Part of your network.

[Anne Morris]

It's part of the game. This was fun about business. It's a game. And the presence of bias is part of the game.

[Elizabeth]

Yeah. And I think I was always scared to kind of admit that and be like, I don't need anyone. I got it. I'm a strong, independent woman, like, whatever. Like, if they don't like me, so be it. And so I think kind of being okay and open to that and, you know, unapologetic about it.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah.

[Frances Frey]

And Elizabeth, what I like about that is that you could be a strong, independent woman and have a one woman show, or you could learn how to build a network and be part of a larger organization. And you are destined for a larger organization.

[Elizabeth]

Yes, I hope so. I sure hope so. I'm going to definitely restructure some things and kind of see how it goes.

[Anne Morris]

Awesome. Elizabeth, thank you so much. This has been such a pleasure. Will you let us know how it goes?

[Elizabeth]

Absolutely, absolutely. And I just want to thank you guys so much. I listen to your podcast on Runs in the morning and it's just, it's so helpful. Like, one of the biggest things I want to say is like the meeting thing. I used to have meetings that were just three hours, four hours long with some of my clients, and I'm like, you've got, like, we've got to get a plan together. So I really have implemented that. So I want to thank you guys so much for that as well.

[Anne Morris]

Oh, we love hearing it. That's awesome.

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[Elizabeth]

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[Anne Morris]

I wish somebody taught me how to regulate my emotions.

[Elizabeth]

No one ever taught me that you're.

[Anne Morris]

Allowed to be sad.

[Elizabeth]

Heartbreak hits hard and yet managing romantic grief is so often left out of the conversation. On the season finale of Mind if We Talk, host and licensed therapist He Su Jo is joined by dating coach.

[Anne Morris]

And podcast host Sabrina Zohar.

[Elizabeth]

Together they unpack her journey through heartbreak, the boundaries she's built, and the self worth she's reclaimed. The end of a relationship might break you in the moment, but looking for help with the grief can bring some fresh perspective and build you in the long run. Catch every single episode of Mind if We Talk, including this one. Wherever you get your podcasts, listen and follow today.

[Anne Morris]

Well that was fun.

[Frances Frey]

That was totally fun. I'm so rooting for her.

[Anne Morris]

I know I'm not rooting for a tree to fall in the house, but I know I know who to call. I know who to call. Francis Another thing that I was thinking about during this conversation is a phrase we use a lot and you know that I love, which is to engage with the best version of someone. And I think it's another useful tool to have in the toolkit for situations like this. So can you just explain what we mean by that and maybe give us some tactics on how to go down that road?

[Frances Frey]

So I've become aware of it. It was something I was doing without being aware. I became aware of it when I was coaching faculty on teaching and a student would make a comment that was on the side of aggressive and that if you wanted to, you could have gotten into a defensive crouch and battled the student, or you could interact with the best version of the student and all of the aggression went away and it just went to the learning. And so I think here, you know, I'm sure people say dopey things to her. She told us they do. And they say dopey things about gender. And so we can choose to engage with that. Or the version of moving the learning forward for her is how do we get better claims adjustments.

[Anne Morris]

Yeah. I think the power of this conversation is about getting in touch with the agency that we have as individuals to chip away at our experience. And. And it is my experience of myself that we often have more agency than we realize.

[Frances Frey]

I think that's right. And I was really, you know, you and I have this conversation of what do we do at the individual level and what do we do at the system level. And the truth is the answer is always we need both. But at any moment in time, we should be in touch with our individual agency. And then, yes, of course, we're working to combat the systems thing so that it makes the need for individual agency less and less frequent. And at any moment in time, we want to be able to have full access to our agency. And one of those things is the way in which I interact with you is going to influence how you interact with me.

[Anne Morris]

I know that that is. That is the mind blowing part of this. Absolutely.

[Frances Frey]

Well, thanks for listening, everybody, and we would love to hear from you. If you want to figure out your workplace problem together, please send us a message. You can email fixableed.com call 234-fixable that's 234-349-2253.

[Anne Morris]

Fixable is brought to you by the Ted Audio Collective. It's hosted by me, Anne Morris and me, Frances Fry. Our team includes Isabel Carter, Constanza Gallardo, Banban Chang, Michelle Quint, Corey Hajim, Alejandra Salazar and Roxanne. Hi, Lash.

[Frances Frey]

This episode was mixed by Louis at Storyyard. If you're enjoying the show, make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and tell a friend to check us out.

[Anne Morris]

And one more thing, if you can please take a second to leave us a review. It really helps us make a great show.

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[Elizabeth]

Yep.

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[Frances Frey]

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[Anne Morris]

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[Frances Frey]

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[Elizabeth]

Locked in at a great rate for five years.

[AT&T/Grainger Advertiser]

Really?

[Anne Morris]

That's great news. High five everybody. The Comcast Business five year Price Lock.

[Frances Frey]

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[Anne Morris]

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[Frances Frey]

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