C (3:24)

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

B (3:26)

We're such big fans. We're thrilled to have you on the show today. You and I gave TED talks the same year and I was in the audience when you gave your terrific now viral talk. And I had two thoughts as I was sitting there. One was that this woman could make me a much better parent. And the second was that so much of what you were saying seem to apply not just to parenting, but also to leadership, which is the thing that we think about all day. So what's your reaction to that observation?

C (3:59)

I think parenting is leadership in its rawest form. I say we help parents become sturdy, confident leaders so they can raise sturdy, confident kids. When we talk to different people about good inside, they actually say in terms of the benefits, it often has nothing to do with their kids. They're like, I manage this situation at work, or I asked my boss for a raise. I've been wanting to do that for a while. Is that weird? And I was like, that's not weird at all. That when we learn how to understand ourselves and understand people, when you learn that embodying your authority can go hand in hand with really connecting to someone else and understanding them, then you actually just start to see the world differently. And you can apply those lessons anywhere.

B (4:45)

I love this word sturdy and the idea of solving for sturdy, particularly in the conditions that so many people are trying to lead right now. High speed, high uncertainty. What's the emotional frequency that I'm going to choose that is going to set other people up for success? Which seems so aligned with what you're teaching us.

C (5:05)

So aligned. I think there's a couple of ways I can go into that word. One, I think it's your ability at once to be connected to yourself and your values and to be connected to someone else in their reality. We're often better at one or the other. We're really living in someone else's head and thinking about what they may or may not be thinking or feeling. And we self abandon in the process. Or we're so rooted in what we know and what we feel that you almost can't entertain the idea that someone else could have a very real experience that's different from your own. And to me, sturdy leadership, it can do both even in the same moment. And I think parenting and leadership sturdiness is often what you want to come back to.

B (5:47)

One of the things that I felt in response to your work is relief. And I'm curious what you are hoping your audience feels and doesn't feel as we face the complexity of our lives.

C (6:04)

It's a great question. I could start with what I hope they don't feel. That's really easy for me. I hope they don't feel like oh my goodness, I got it all wrong, I messed up my kid forever. I definitely hope they don't feel the finality of that. I hope they don't feel.

B (6:18)

They already feel that.

C (6:20)

You know what, that's.

B (6:21)

I think we do care these messages.

C (6:23)

I hope they don't feel that the goal is any type of perfection. Somehow the idea that if we learn something we're going to be perfect at it just starts to associate in our brain and it almost gets in our way of signing up for learning. What I want people to feel is more empowered, more hopeful, more compassionate, more powerful and more playful.

B (6:45)

We talk about playful all the time in the work that we do, both as a goal and also as an indicator that you are bringing your best self to the challenge of leadership. So we often will bring playfulness into the room even in very high stakes situation because it invites people to bring their sturdy, yes, creative can do spirit to whatever problem we're solving. I love that list.

C (7:14)

I happened to run a brand new workshop which I had never done, but someone said to me, you know, you teach parents so many things, but you don't teach parents how to play. And for most of us it's a source of pain and it doesn't come naturally. And I think that's cause most of those parents didn't have any parent who played with them. And it was such an amazing invitation and. And it was. I just showed up my sweatsuit and to just model these things ready to go, you know. And it can be so manageable to kind of ease into play and it is often the answer to the hardest moments, ironically.

B (7:51)

How does sturdiness and playfulness in this conversation connect to good inside which is this meta frame on so much of what you do?

C (7:59)

Yeah, I think when I was getting trained as a clinical psychologist and definitely in the extra training I did for how to work with Parents, by the way, all that training was completely the opposite, basically of what I recommend now. But I think we have two operating views when we interact with people, which is I see what's visible, which is somebody's bad behavior, right? Whether it's an employee who's always late or interrupting on Zoom, or it's my kid who's in a hitting phase or says, I hate you whenever I say, no, I agree, bad behavior. But we have this collapse that happens in our mind where to me, two things, and it's helpful even to put your hands separate, is to look at one and be like, this is behavior. It's what someone does. And the other hand is this is identity and it's who someone is. And one view that happens is we see bad behavior and the two hands are no longer separate, they're just collapsed. And so I think I'm responding to someone's bad behavior, but I'm not. My whole mindset is, I assume this is a bad person. Bad behavior means bad person. And then if there's a bad person, of course you're gonna punish them. And you're gonna also feel really desperate. Like old models of parenting, I always think everyone's like, oh, it's no parents punish their kids anymore. I'm like, I'm sorry, you have a four year old hitting. And the best thing you can say as a parent is, go to your room and no dessert tonight. It's like pathetic. It's so pathetic. Like, can you imagine an amazing CEO to someone who's late being like, well, I'm not ordering you lunch today. I'd be like, oh my God, that's so weak. Like, that's the best you get. But we have those reactions because we feel desperate and scared because of the collapse of behavior and identity. And I think when I started challenging my own beliefs because I was in private practice telling every parent how to do a timeout and punishment and sticker chart, I liked at that time to be a good student and to do as taught. And it just started to get so loud in me. I was like, this is, this is wrong. Like, that's not how I handle adults in my practice. When they tell me about their bad behavior, I don't take away their cell phone, you know? And I think when I stripped everything away, like, I was really left with two things. Only one, kids are born good inside. And again, there's good identity that's separate from bad behavior. And it sounds so simple, but it's literally a massive worldview difference. And that doesn't make the behavior okay. It just means now I have a foundation to understand the gap between identity and behavior and to intervene based on that gap versus based on seeing the whole thing together. And then the other thing I was left with is kids are born with the feelings and none of the skills. They're good kids who are having a hard time because they need more skills and nobody has ever been taught a skill from being sent to their room or having their dessert taken away.

B (10:50)

Capability gap in our language.

C (10:53)

Love it. Same same same.

B (10:54)

I love it. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn if you're a small business owner, work rarely stops. When the day ends, your business is always on, and when it's time to hire, you need a partner who's just as committed to. That's where LinkedIn jobs comes in. When you clock out, LinkedIn clocks in. LinkedIn makes hiring simple. Post your job for free and share it with your network. Their new feature even helps write job descriptions and gets your posting in front of the right candidates with deep insights. Want more reach? Promoted jobs get three times more qualified applicants. Here's what matters most. Quality. Based on LinkedIn data, 72% of small businesses using LinkedIn said that it's helped them find high quality candidates. Find out why more than 2.5 million small businesses use LinkedIn for hiring and find your next great hire Today. Post your job for free@LinkedIn.com fixable. That's LinkedIn.com fixable to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. This podcast is brought to you by Simply cx. Here on Fixable, we help leaders tackle real workplace challenges and create change that sticks. One of the most important challenges leaders face right now is customer experience. It has moved from nice to have to the driving force behind whether a business thrives or struggles. That's why Microsoft created a new podcast called Simply CX and why you should listen to it. Hosted by Nicole McKinley, Microsoft's global customer experience CX leader, SimplyCX features leaders from companies like CarMax, TD bank and T Mobile who are redesigning how organizations connect with customers. You will hear how innovation and great leadership come together to create change that makes markets and fuel sustainable growth. The conversations are direct, practical and packed with takeaways you can immediately apply to your own strategies, teams and customers. If you are working to build an experience that customers love and a customer centric culture, your employees are part of satisfaction. Simply CX will help you get there faster, so don't miss out. Start listening to Simply CX every other Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts and follow host Nicole McKinley on LinkedIn to keep the conversation going.

A (13:21)

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B (13:59)

All right, I want to move on to some tactics. This is a very action oriented show and we want to spend some time on this concept of repair, which we think about all the time in our work. So particularly in fast moving, ambitious organizations, relationships get injured. So tell us what repair is and why should we care about it?

C (14:21)

Yeah, so repair is the act of going back to a moment that felt bad, taking ownership over your part and stating what you would do differently the next time. And what's important to understand about repair is the reason why it matters so much and why it becomes such a superpower when you start to build that muscle. So first of all, when a uncomfortable moment happens between you and a person you care about, right? And you want to stay in a relationship with an employee, a partner, a kid, that experience lives in their body. You could talk about it or not talk about it, but at the end of the day, it lives in their body. So, so I'm either going to leave that person alone with the experience, in which case they have to make up their own story to understand, right? Humans learn by stories, that's all. And so stories have a huge role. And so if I'm really upset because my boss yelled at me or whatever it was in a meeting, I'm upset. Nobody can take the upset away. No matter how much they try to invalidate it, it already happened. It either my boss never mentions it again, in which case I have to make up a story. The story might be I'm so stupid, I'm the worst. In which case I'm gonna do awful work for the rest of the time because that's how I start to identify, or I hate my boss has it out for me and maybe I'm gonna start coming in late or I don't know, stealing a lot of snacks or just not doing my best work. Also because I feel misunderstood right now. If someone repairs, they actually have the power to of helping that other person tell a story that's actually in line with probably what's closer to reality and what's going to be better for the relationship. So at work I'd say, hey, I yelled at you earlier. Look, it's true, I was frustrated. That's totally separate from how I manage it. And it's never okay that I yelled at you. I'm sure that felt bad. And I'm gonna work on staying calmer now after this repair. Yes, the upset feeling still lives there, but there's a container for it. It's not free floating in someone's body. And there's. And anyone I know probably leaves the office, I don't know, calling someone, being like, I had a really amazing moment with my boss. And they're like, didn't your boss yell at you a couple weeks ago? And they're like, oh, yeah, I guess that happened. I was upset. But how good it feels to get a repair so surpasses how bad it feels to have a bad moment. And so I'm just a very practical person. Like, I say this to CEOs all the time or parents. Like, it's just, it's an easy win. It's like a really easy win. Right. And same thing with your kids. I mean, the thing that's a little different about kids, they're probably not that different is kids resort to one main story when they're upset with their parents and their parents don't repair, it's my fault. I'm a bad person. I'm a bad kid. I make bad things happen. Because for a kid whose survival is dependent on their relationship with their parent, when they're upset after, let's say, their parent yelled at them, it's actually intolerable for a kid to say, well, I think my parent just has an anger problem or my parent isn't great. You can't be dependent on someone for your survival and assume the fault is in them. That's really scary for a kid. And so they have to conclude, well, I'm bad. I think I quoted this in my TED Talk, but it's better to be a sinner in a world ruled by God than. Than live in a world ruled by the devil. That truth dictates child development.

B (17:54)

Like a PSA aside on this, the muscle memory of that story comes with us as adults into every workplace and every relationship with every authority figure for the rest of our lives.

C (18:06)

That's exactly right. Because when you have an uncomfortable moment as a 40 year old in the workplace and you get yelled at, you don't process it. As a 40 year old, we scan our bodies and we kind of say, what have I learned in terms of how I make sense of uncomfortable moments with people I care about? And your body's like, oh, I know it's all your fault. You're a piece of shit. Right? Well, that was a story you had to tell yourself from an unrepaired moment in your childhood. And not one moment, probably patterns of moments. And now it's coming alive. Your present. And so when I repair with my kids, I, I, I visualize like, okay, I yelled at my son and he's starting to tell himself the story of I'm, you know, I'm a bad kid, I'm a bad person. And I really do picture myself like going in and like snatching it, like, no, no, not gonna let you do that. And then I do picture him as a 40 year old who's like, hey, I want my kid, if they get yelled at, right? To be able to say, hey, that wasn't cool, I don't deserve that. Now what I do next I have to figure out. But I don't want my kid to tell themselves the story of low self worth in that moment that's really toxic. That actually gets people locked into really toxic relationships. And so yes, the benefit of repair happens now, but especially when you have young kids, it also means you're shaping how they're going to think about future difficult moments.

B (19:35)

So I want to go after this in kind of three parts. So the first part is I am the boss in that story who's yelled at a junior person on my team, let's say. And I want to also go after it from the perspective of the person who has been yelled at. Because I think one thing that is different between parenting and leadership is that in a leadership story, regardless of how you feel, there are two adults with agency in the story. And so I may feel like a 12 year old being yelled at by a parent, but I am a grown ass woman who does have some choices I can make in that moment. I'm a boss. I yelled at someone on my team, I regret it. I wanna repair the situation. Take us through the steps. How do we repair? And then how would you coach the boss through that scene? And then how would you coach the person receiving that harsh tone feedback?

C (20:33)

So I think the first question is, well, what's blocking me? To me, the single biggest thing that blocks anybody from repairing is they haven't done a necessary first step, which is actually repairing with themselves. Because again, we're going to get to the same themes. Most of us were raised in a way where we did not inherently separate behavior from identity. So you just screamed at some employee. I'm sure there's a part of you that's like, that was not how I wanted to show up. It's just, that's not me at my best. And as long as you don't repair, you don't have to face the reality of what you just did. Most people who really have a hard time apologizing, people say they're so cold hearted, they don't care. I actually see them in a very different way. I think there's actually something very vulnerable and almost like almost fragile. Like, oh, you have such a hard time believing you could be a good boss who did yell that you have to not see it in repair. Kind of in the service of trying to hold yourself together. A good repair is actually a reminder, just separating your identity from your behavior. I'm a good person who. I'm a good CEO who. I'm a good boss who. I'm a good parent who. That's an amazing sentence starter because it literally concrete forces you to separate your identity from something you just did. So I'd say, if it was me, I'd put my, you know, feet on the floor, I'd sit, I put my hand on my heart. I say, becky, okay, I'm a good person who yelled. And then you'll see a trick. I'll be like, no, I'm the worst. And that was so bad. Oh, no, come back. I'm a good person who yelled. I always like this phrase too. I'm not defined by my latest behavior. I can do this. And then to me, the sign that I'm ready to truly repair with someone. I wish I had a better way of saying this, but like I feel this small shift in my body. Something releases a little where it just doesn't feel as heavy and final.

B (22:29)

Yeah, I want to really underscore this point because we have a lot of again, listeners the bias for action. And I think when something breaks, we want to fix it and we want to jump to that repair. But the point you're making is that you will not be as effective or get where you want to go unless you take a beat and just acknowledge that break with your values and identity.

C (22:51)

That's exactly right. Because it's kind of like when we were all kids, if like your parent picked you up late from somewhere and I'm sure they felt guilty and all Of a sudden you're like, I feel like my parents trying now for me to make them feel better. I had a big meeting and there's a lot of traffic. And now as a kid, you have to be like, oh, it's no big deal. And you're like, wow, instead of getting something from my parent, I'm sorry I'm late. That probably felt scary. Or sorry I missed your soccer game. Now I have to give something to my parent. It's really. It really feels bad. And my guess, in that situation, the parent, the reason that happened is because a parent did not repair with themselves. And you have to have that experience of being like, wait, I'm not a horrible person and if I don't do it for myself, you're going to be unconsciously trying to get it from the person. Ironically, you're trying to give the repair to. And same thing in an office. Like you'd probably end up saying to someone, look, I'm sorry I yelled. Those things happen sometimes. Like just say. Or just something like that. Or I'm sorry I yelled. You yell sometimes too. Right? We all have our moments. And it just. The power dynamic is all off. And again, if I think about sturdiness, like, I'm not gonna go to my 6 year old to make me feel better and like I'm not gonna go to my marketing manager to make me feel like a good CEO, it just makes me think of a pilot. Hey, guys. That was a little turbulent. Like, I'm a good pilot. Right. And you're like, oh my God, like, get a hold of yourself.

B (24:14)

You are saying that you do have to have that relationship with yourself and.

C (24:18)

It starts developing it. Yeah.

B (24:20)

As absurd as it sounds. Okay, now talk us through the repair. Repair. Talk us through the repair stuff.

C (24:25)

And, and I'll talk you through. And then a common question after. Okay, so I would just start with I'm sorry for her. Right.

B (24:32)

For yelling at you. Right.

C (24:33)

I'm sorry for yelling. Sorry for yelling. Sorry for yelling earlier. You know, I keep thinking about a moment that happened three weeks ago and I yelled and I'm sorry for doing that. And then saying to someone something like that wasn't your fault. I think is really helpful to remove the fault. And then either saying what you think that probably felt like for them, which could be, I'm sure that felt bad, especially surrounded by other people. I want to acknowledge that. Or stating what you would do differently. So cocktail things that could help. Look, the truth is I was frustrated in that meeting, but it's my responsibility to manage that in a respectful way. That's not on you. And so I think name what happened. Right. Acknowledge what that was probably like and state what you would do differently. And then we actually do have to work on the thing we said we do differently or else it does start to feel empty. Right. And then here's the question I often get. But the person does keep coming late or does keep interrupting. So it was kind of their fault, Right? Or for a kid. But Dr. Becky, they weren't listening to me about. About putting their shoes on.

D (25:30)

Right?

C (25:30)

So it was their fault. We have to separate, again, two things. How we feel in a situation is multifaceted. I felt frustrated. Of course, that frustration is related to the fact that my kid isn't putting on their shoes. I felt frustrated in the meeting because someone kept interrupting. Of course, yes. But we have to separate a feeling we're having and how we manage the feeling. And the truth is, how we manage our feelings predates our relationship with that employee and predates our child's existence. That has so much historical context.

B (26:04)

Shocking.

C (26:04)

Shocking, right? And the reason why it's also a really bad apology. I always think about this one day. That's the way I always apologize to my son. Like, I'm sorry for yelling, but I wouldn't have if you just listened the first time. Then what I'm setting up someone to do as my son is to one day I'm gonna hear him say to his partner, look, I'm sorry I yelled, but if you remembered the paper towels, I wouldn't have yelled at you. Can you imagine? Like, oh my goodness, I raised like kind of a creep. That's really. That's so creepy. So how we connect to other people determines how they connect to themselves and people in their world. And that's what culture is too. So how I repair or don't repair with somebody in a meeting is going to also dictate the culture with which they do or do not repair, or just blame some someone else on the team for their bad behavior. So if we think big picture, I can't imagine that's what any senior executive thinks would be productive.

B (26:59)

So there's this whole subset of management literature that focus on apology. But what's really fun about people who really study this is that the payoff, the kind of non intuitive payoff is that more often than not, the relationship gets stronger than it was before the harm took place. So you have customers spending more money, you have people being more loyal. It's a very straight line from effective repair to A better relationship. And that is very hard, I think, for the human brain to really internalize.

C (27:36)

That's exactly right. And you know this from, in my mind, the best data we have, which is the data in our body about how something would feel where imagine if your parent now, if you're an adult, would call you. And just even now I'm thinking about this stuff from your younger years. And there were so many times I sent you to your room and probably those are the times you needed me the most. And I really wish I had done that differently. And I worry it's too late to tell you this, but those moments weren't your fault. I didn't know and I wish I did. And I know a little bit now. And if you're ever willing to talk to me about any of it, I'm gonna listen. Just listen to understand, not prove anything. I don't know one adult who would tell me anything else. But that probably wouldn't change everything. But that would change a lot, a lot of things that would feel really good. And so, yeah, the same thing again with our own kids in the office with your partner, whenever I talk about repair and he's like, if everyone in the audience says, I'm gonna repair with someone today, I'm gonna repair someone for something little today from something big from five years ago. I feel like you'd feel the ripples of this positivity in the world of Repair Day. Maybe we should make that. Repair day is a certain day of the month.

B (28:53)

It should be a national holiday.

C (28:55)

Yeah, exactly.

B (28:56)

I'm not hearing that there's an expiration date on repair. There's not.

C (29:00)

There's not. And it doesn't even have to be that specific. Again, if it would feel good in your body for your parent to even just say, I keep thinking about a lot of stuff I did and it probably felt bad if that's all they said. Still you'd be like, wow. And I also think the thing about no expiration date, if you think about again like you're an executive and you say to someone, look, this thing is like eating at me. I still remember it. I don't know if you do. Imagine just on the receiving end, you're like, wow. Like you were still holding that in your mind to, to. It's a very powerful human feeling to be held in somebody's mind. That's actually so much of the essence of what kids need when they have separation. Do I even exist in my parents mind?

D (29:47)

Right.

C (29:47)

Like being held in someone's mind is really powerful. So when you repair from something a while ago, you're saying, I'm still holding that and you and that potential pain you might have had. In my mind, that's. Oh, it's, it's beautiful.

B (30:02)

I love it. And when we have talked about this with teams and individual leaders, we spend a lot of time on this. So you have to make sure people feel seen. You have to make sure you're clearly valuing the relationship and also that people are no longer insecure in terms of worrying if this is going to happen again. So you have to make it clear to your customers and your team and your colleagues that the behavior is ending. We've talked about Boeing on this show and we've talked about other high profile company, whole companies that are engaged in the process of repair with their stakeholders right now.

C (30:34)

Yeah.

B (30:35)

And we're cheering them on. But some of these organizations are not there yet. But you said that quickly. And I want to know where this lives in your model. That final piece of being convincing that this behavior is going to end. The harm is going to end.

C (30:50)

Yeah. I think being convincing that someone's going to work on something comes from something that's often missing too, which is being really direct and honest about what the pain was. When you hear someone skirting around that or saying a version that wasn't actually your experience of it, it doesn't even matter what they say come next. You didn't trust them from the start. And I think this is counter to like a lot of PR advice. But again, I just think, let's say it's shareholders or consumers. You're like, I'm a consumer of your company. Like, I already felt the thing that you did. Like you can pretend it wasn't.

B (31:24)

You're doing it right.

C (31:25)

It already happen. Right. And to hear someone name that. And I think it's bold and I'm sure there's nuance here, but I don't know. The truth feels good.

B (31:38)

The management literature backs you up on this and it's very counterintuitive in kind of the legalistic.

D (31:43)

Yeah.

C (31:43)

And so then the next steps. I think people want to hear things that are concrete and they want to see evidence. So if I think about that related two steps after repair, it's like, here's what I'm going to do. And then I think what people or companies could even do is proactively tell, hey, do you remember we said this? Here's our progress so far. I think what feels bad is it goes into the ether and then you're like is that even real? And so yeah, it probably is counterintuitive. Even though again, I'm guessing data supports that because it's just based on the truth.

D (32:21)

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E (33:24)

Ted's podcast Work Life, and this episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into. That's why it's no surprise that more than 85% of the Fortune 500 companies use the ServiceNow AI platform, while other platforms duct tape tools together. ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data workflows and AI connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters Most. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people@servicenow.com Did I talk too much?

C (34:02)

Can't I just let it go? I wish I would stop. Thank you so much. Take a breath.

A (34:07)

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C (34:12)

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D (34:15)

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B (34:36)

So let's go back to that scene of someone being yelled at by their boss. Yes, coach the other person in this scene on how to metabolize this experience and what, if anything, they can do to help put this relationship on a path of repair even though they weren't the so called perpetrator.

C (34:53)

Yeah Again, just separating behavior from identity, again, comes into play here, because especially, let's say you're a junior employee, you just get yelled at. And again, I know, too, when I'm yelling at someone. I had such a bad day for a million things, and I was just waiting for one tiny, somewhat irrelevant thing. And then it all, you know, I hadn't metabolized, so it all comes out. But I think you could say, look, notice the spiral, which probably comes from that moment, all of a sudden being a barometer of your worth, right? And if you notice that, you can start to separate it. I put your feet on the ground. I'd say, okay, I'm even going to visualize I'm a good person. I'm a good product manager, whatever the company is, who just had a really emotionally difficult moment in that meeting. Like, I always like to say, two things are true. Our brains, especially this day and age in the world, likes to go to one thing is true mode, right? And so what happens is you feel so uncomfortable. So you're like, my career and world is over. Because that would be one thing is true versus two things are true. Like, I've been actually doing a pretty good job at this company. My latest review, like my conversations with people, I also have an internal barometer of my work that is all true. And what is equally true is I had a moment that felt really bad, and I have some very understandable, uncomfortable emotions about that. Anybody would panic. To me, the phrase I, I'll go through this thing called avp. I think it's like the ultimate emotion coping A is acknowledge, V validate. P permit. So I acknowledge, say, okay, just acknowledge to me is saying, hi, hi. Racing heart, high thoughts that I'm gonna get fired. Just saying hi to you, acknowledging it. And then V validate. Everyone talks about validating feelings, but I feel like it's hard to operationalize that. To me, validating feelings is telling yourself or someone else that their feelings make sense. I just think there's something about the phrase makes sense that our feelings love. I always imagine, like, our feelings feel accepted by logic or something. They're like, oh, finally. And so to say, well, I did just get yelled at publicly, so it makes sense. I'd have a racing heart and some worries about being fired. That just makes sense. And then P permit would just be saying to yourself, I give myself permission to be having all these feelings. And then after that, to me, we have a really important phrase that comes next that's always the same, and I can cope with this. Our feelings don't inherently give us problems as much as the way we talk to ourselves about our feelings give us problems. And I think the other things that feelings can do that are tricky is they make you lose touch with just this inherent truth about you, which is that you're capable, you can cope with hard things. You've probably coped with many hard things in the past. This is one that you're going to do again. And as soon as you can hold together validation of your feelings and being in touch with your capability. It sounds dramatic, but, like, the world changes. And even if you're just like, oh, I probably don't even need to focus on my feelings right now. I just need to remind myself I'm capable. Or maybe your balance is the opposite. And then in terms of how I would repair the relationship, let's say you have a boss who doesn't repair. I don't know, maybe you're doing that thing with your feelings and you move on. And maybe you're like, I do actually think I could talk to my boss about it. I think about people in my company who'd be like, becky, that didn't feel good. And Becky would want to know if, as a valuable person at Good Inside, I'm about to leave because of this thing and the series, like, she would want to know that or she should want to know that. And to me, another phrase that just can take any hard conversation from conflictual to actually connecting and productive is just saying out loud to someone, we're on the same team. Hey, I want to talk to you about something hard. I feel a little awkward. But you know what? I always come back to Becky, like, you and I are on the same team. Like, we're on the same team in general. We're definitely on the same team and wanting what's good to good inside. And I feel like you'd want to know about something that was getting in my way of, like, feeling as good and productive at work. And so with that in mind, I want to share something. And then all the classic stuff, using I and not you, that really matters. But what you do with this little preamble is you preload a story in someone else's mind to interpret your words through so they're less likely to say, like, oh, this person just thinks I'm awful. It's like, almost giving me credit. It's true. I am a CEO who wants the best for my company. Yes, you're right about that. Thank you. Yeah, you know, it's like. And then I can Hear someone say, look, you yelled at me in this meeting. We all have our moments. I don't even know if it was the yelling or the not saying something to me after. It probably was that that felt bad. And honestly, we could have that moment now. And I just figured I'd. I owe it to you to let you know that I kind of still feel like I need that. And again, we're on the same team, and I figured you and I could talk through that.

B (39:43)

I love that, Becky. And you're such a fantastic coach. I'm going to throw a couple more scenarios at you. The other way I've coached people through that moment is, listen, this thing happened. And what I'm concluding from this is this. And I want to test with you if that's the right thing. I should conclude from the decision you made. You seem pretty worked up about the fact that I'm late. You're thinking this is a sign of disrespect. That's not what I meant. So I just want to test the story and I want to tell you what I'm going to be doing differently. And now we're in a conversation.

C (40:12)

And this is so true. If you're like, I keep thinking about that parent who called that kid and my parents, never going to do that. Writing yourself. The repair you need from your boss or from your parents is, I know everyone's retraction is like, that's so cheesy. Really think I'm going to do that. But it is so powerful because the truth is we probably aren't getting that from the parent and might not get that from the boss. But when you externalize it, like, here's what my boss would say to me in an email. It really has a profound impact.

B (40:43)

My therapist just forced me to do that about a scene from my childhood. It was very profound exercise. And it never even occurred to me to think about bringing that into the workplace.

C (40:54)

Yeah.

B (40:54)

So let me give you a couple more scenarios. Let's do it. Dr. Becky, the coach here. Okay. My company just made a major policy change that's up to upsetting people on my team. What can I do to help them metabolize the change?

C (41:09)

So always start with hearing someone out, wanting to learn more and validating someone's feelings. I just want to be clear. It never means you agree with the feeling at all. Validating someone's feelings and being willing to learn more just says, I believe this is true for you. I believe this is true for you. And I think at our souls we're all just looking to feel believed. And I have three lines that I think every manager and definitely parent should just have in their back pocket. The first line is just, I'm so glad you're talking to me about this. It's actually saying to someone in a deep way, the part of you that feels this way can be in a relationship with me. I'll walk through.

B (41:54)

That's such powerful framing. I love it.

C (41:56)

So powerful, right? I always think if I said to my boss, I think I deserve a raise. And let's say they were like, there's no way Becky's getting a raise. But the first thing they said was first, I'm so glad you came to me with this. I'm so glad you're talking to me about this. And that usually does allow someone to tell you a lot more because it's an invitation to talk more. You're like, yeah, this policy change, it's awful. It's this, I would say, look, that makes sense. Or I believe you. That phrase, I believe you again, just like, such a win. It's the ultimate confidence building phrase for kids. And it just, again, it gets to the core of what someone wants. I believe you. This is a big change and I'm making this up. We have to be back in the office four days a week and you have a long commute. You know, it comes. Okay. I'm so glad you're talking to me about this. And I believe you. I believe you. That is going to be a really big change in your day to day life. And then I think you could have in your pocket the third line. She's just tell me more. Okay. And then I think where you go from there depends on where someone is. They might have just wanted to explore that arc. It might be, look, let's check in on this in a week. Because sometimes the changes we imagine really are as bad as we worry. Sometimes the changes we imagine aren't as bad as we worry. And only time and information will tell us more. So maybe you can even put a date in the calendar. That's something I know I need. It's like an anchor. If someone's like, let's talk about this again. I'm like, I don't trust that that's an open file. If they're like, let's talk about this Friday, 2:15 to 2:25. I'm like, oh, amazing. And now I can, like, go on with my day. And so I put an anchor and then I proactively check in and go from there.

B (43:30)

I want to Throw one more scenario at you.

C (43:32)

Okay, let's do it.

B (43:34)

So I'm a leader who's frustrated with the performance of some of my direct reports. How do I create a healthy sense of urgency and accountability?

C (43:46)

When you're struggling, there's nothing that feels as good as somebody seeing potential in you. I really think that it feels so good that someone can see a part of you that you can't access in that moment. That's true for kids. That's true for employees. So I do something with that in mind. So let's say, hey, look, we're on the same team, and I'm just going to state things I think we both know. But if not, then at least we have clarity. Moving this metric really matters. Or having this shipped by this date. So that's where we are. And I've been noticing that our deadlines aren't being hit. Let's say that. And then I think a curiosity around your role is really helpful to reduce defensiveness. It makes me wonder if I haven't been clear enough about the deadline. It makes me wonder if I'm not giving you something that you could use to run at it. It makes me wonder if you feel so much pressure that you honestly just need to hear from me once a day. Like, I believe in you. You've got this. Let's freaking go. It makes me wonder about what I can do, because what I know is that we or you are not operating at the level we need to get where we need to go. And again, I believe in you. I believe we can do this. We're on the same team. Let's figure this out together and end this meeting with three specific things that can help this go in a more urgent direction.

B (45:14)

Amazing. Frances, I have not let you have a minute in this conversation, and I'm so sorry. We will be repairing this oversight off air.

C (45:26)

Frances has been texting me on the side.

B (45:30)

Now. Becky Ann has been looking forward to this. You have been a great inspiration to her, and she's been saving all of these things up, and I'm savoring all of it. Let me. Let me ask you this, an unfair question. What percentage of your work do you think applies to the practice of leadership?

C (45:49)

A hundred?

B (45:50)

I think It's a hundred.

C (45:52)

100.

B (45:53)

Yeah, I'm quite convinced of that. Dr. Becky, where can people go to learn more about what you're up to?

C (46:00)

We try to keep it simple, right? I mean, goodinside.com is a hub for everything. You can find our membership, and we have pretty good technological solutions for a lot of things in our life. And I really do believe parents have been left behind. I think this idea of maternal instinct is responsible. Like the idea that we could brainwash women to think the hardest job in the world comes naturally is like a real sick joke at best. And that's really big picture what we want to change, you know, so goodinside.com that's where it all lives.

B (46:27)

And there's a perfect analog to leadership because people think, oh, you have. You're either born a good leader or not. Which is also absurd.

C (46:36)

Exactly. Well, thank you for the work you're doing to undo that narrative and to give such again, actionable guidance that make people same feel just like the best version of themselves. I think that's the goal. So I'm in it with you too.

B (46:53)

If you want to be on fixable, please call us at 234- FIXABLE. That's 234-349-2253 or email us@fixableed.com. Fixable is brought to you by the TED audio collective and Pushkin industries. It's hosted by me, Anne Morris and me, Frances fry. This episode was produced by Rahima Nassa from Pushkin industries. Our team includes Constanza Gallardo, Banban Chang, Daniela Baloraso and Roxanne hi Lash. And our show was mixed by Louis at storyyard.

D (47:46)

Oh, hey.

E (47:46)

Welcome to gift wrapping.

B (47:48)

Whoa.

E (47:48)

So we saldana.

C (47:49)

Hey, can you wrap these please? Wow.

E (47:51)

IPhone 17s.

C (47:52)

You splurge at T Mobile you can get four iPhone 17s on them. The new center stage front camera is amazing for group selfies. It's the perfect gift for everyone.

E (48:00)

I'm the worst. I only got my mom a robe.

C (48:02)

Well, it's better than socks.

E (48:04)

So I have to trade in my old phone, right?

C (48:07)

No @t mobile there's no trade ins needed when you switch. Keep your old phone or give it as a gift.

E (48:12)

Incredible.

C (48:13)

In fact, wrap up my old phone too for my aunt Rosa.

B (48:16)

Forget that.

C (48:16)

Aunt Liz will be jealous.

E (48:17)

Sounds like my family drums.

B (48:19)

Oh, I got it.

C (48:20)

I'll give it to my abuela. I'll take reindeer paper with.

B (48:22)

Hey, where are you going?

E (48:24)

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