Chris Duffy (3:23)

Random odd jobs to dream jobs. Sarah argues that no matter what we're doing, we need to re evaluate our relationship to work and to make sure that we don't give all of ourselves away. In her latest book, from the Grief and Revolution in A World on Fire, Sarah takes that idea and she goes even further, weaving her own personal story of grief after losing her father with the broader societal grief at job losses and the pandemic and the climate crisis. In both of her books, Sarah is exploring how our humanity is so often limited by the very narrow confines of the work that we can do that makes money. These are big topics. This is weighty and challenging stuff. And I'm so glad that Sarah is here with us today to talk through it.

Sarah Jaffe (4:04)

I'm Sarah Jaffe. I'm a journalist and the author of, among other things, Work Won't Love youe, How devotion to our jobs Keeps us exploited, exhausted and Alone and From the Grief and Revolution in A World on Fire.

Chris Duffy (4:16)

So let's start by talking about your book, Work Won't love you back. You've done a lot of jobs. You've done a lot of jobs that are service jobs and that are looking at people. And then of course, now you're a journalist, so you've kind of been on both sides where you work for yourself in a more creative way and trying to cobble things together. And then you've also been one where you're very much interacting with the general public.

Sarah Jaffe (4:34)

Yeah.

Chris Duffy (4:35)

Across the Board, the title of your book kind of says it. All right. Work won't love you back. Can you tell us about how you arrived at that conclusion and why it's important to realize that?

Sarah Jaffe (4:46)

Yeah, I think really, like, you hit the nail on the head there, which is I went from all of the service industry work that I more or less hated to, oh, this is exciting. This is my dream job. I'm a journalist now. I've got, you know, I went to grad school, I did the whole thing, redid my life, and my working conditions weren't that much better in it. As I joke on my website bio, like, I didn't make more money at first when I was a journalist than I had been making in restaurants. And so realizing that there was a lot in common there. And actually, I will tell people all the time that waiting tables is great training for journalism because you have to be able to sort of keep a straight face no matter what someone says to you. It's a really useful skill and being able to talk to people and, like, smooth things over when feathers get ruffled. Like, all of these things that I learned, waiting tables actually have stood me in great stead as a reporter for the last 16, 17 years. But that sense that, like, oh, I'm not. My life hasn't changed as much as I thought it was going to. I am still struggling to pay the bills. I was living in New York City when I started work as a full time journalist, which, like, yeah. And that understanding that, like, oh, like, this is cool and I'm glad I'm doing this. And you know, don't get me wrong, I do not want to return to restaurant work. But recognizing that at the end of the day, work is still work and we are still doing it at the end of the day because we've got to pay the rent, not because we just like woke up that morning and decided that slinging sushi to tourists in Denver would be great fun.

Chris Duffy (6:17)

When I think about it in my own personal life, I often think that, like, school is such a clear system, right? Like, whether it works or not for you, it's like we are doing work on this topic and there will be a test on this day and if you get enough of the questions right, you get this quote, unquote, good grade. And it feels like one of the really important pieces of the conversation that you have started with work won't love you back, is that maybe the approval and the sense of worth should actually not be coming from the place that is paying you money.

Sarah Jaffe (6:52)

Like, at the end of the day, I need to have other things that give me meaning and give me validation and give me the sense of doing something important in the world. And like, look, I still do the work that I do, which, like, let me tell you, there are many subjects that I could cover as a journalist that would pay better and have more job security than being a labor reporter. But I keep doing it because I think it's important. And I still talk to a lot of people who do jobs. I talk to a lot of nurses. I talk to a lot of teachers. I talk to a lot of people who are in these kinds of jobs where they are doing it because there is meaning in it for them. And we would want that. I don't want my nurse or my doctor to only be in it for the money. You want your kid's teacher to be engaged and care about kids? I would be a terrible teacher. Cause small children terrify me like that. We don't want to get rid of that entirely, but we do want to have the understanding that, like, your life is more than this workplace, and you get to have demands on your workplace. And again, when you think about doctors and nurses, it makes sense. Right. I would like the hospital to be run by the people who know about providing healthcare, rather than the people who know about, you know, counting budget numbers.

Chris Duffy (8:01)

I think it's really hard if you're doing work that is like. Like you said a nurse, or you're working at a nonprofit that's fighting to clean up the environment, or you are working on cancer research. Right. Like, these things where it's like, you doing something that is so important, and I'm sure it is extremely meaningful, and maybe having a little bit more of a sense of, like, we can be agitating for a better world and we can push for better conditions, rather than just thinking like, well, I have to take it as it is, because this is the dream job or whatever. I think that's a really different way of thinking about work than many of us have.

Sarah Jaffe (8:35)

Yeah. You know, the place that I started that I think really got me, you know, going down this particular front was the Chicago Teachers Union. And in 2012, you know, they went on the strike that was this first big teacher strike in the US In a long time. And the argument that they made was our working conditions or our students learning conditions. And it was this really great way of it. Now, labor scholars and organizers call it bargaining for the common good. And what they're saying is that actually, if we are given better working conditions, if we are paid enough to actually live near the school that we teach in, if we. We have smaller class sizes, if there's toilet paper, they were literally bargaining to get toilet paper in the bathrooms on the first day of school. And so they sort of demonstrated their worth to the community by going on strike, which is the classic sort of labor tactic. But they also really had this innovative argument that was saying to people, you want our conditions to be better because it's actually good for everyone. And the same thing is true of these nurses that I've been covering. Nurses at University Medical center in New Orleans, which is. It used to be Charity Hospital, Right. And Charity Hospital was never reopened after Hurricane Katrina. But its purpose to be an open access hospital that serves everyone regardless of your ability to pay, that's been folded into University Medical Center. And these nurses are fighting and they've unionized and they're planning now their third strike because they're still not getting what they want.

Chris Duffy (9:57)

This is where we can also bridge the line between the two books. Because you talk, I thought very, very movingly in your more recent book from the Ashes about, you draw a line between people who worked in coal mines and people who were working in care work and how for the coal miners, striking was very difficult. But in some ways, the care workers struggled more with the emotional side of striking because they didn't want to leave the people they were taking care of, even though the conditions were unbearable.

Sarah Jaffe (10:29)

Yeah. Kevin. Oh, my goodness, Kevin, I love him so much. So Kevin was a former miner in England, and he had been a coal miner through the 1984, 85 strike, after which Margaret Thatcher basically, like, crushed the British coal industry. And this had been nationalized. So in England, right, the government owned the mines. So they were striking against the government, not just some, like, faceless, you know, mine boss. And, you know, they lost. They. They got crushed. And a lot of them had to go into different industries. And not a lot of the men, for somewhat obvious reasons, went into care work. But this guy Kevin that I was speaking to, and, you know, you know, he's this big guy who had been working down a mine for decades, and then the mine shuts down and he goes into care, and he's working with adult men who have various special needs. And you think about it, right? Because a lot of the people who do care work are like, my size, and I'm, you know, I'm literally the average size woman. I'm 5 foot 4 and 130 something pounds. Like, if I have to restrain or lift or, like, physically interact with somebody who's a lot bigger than me, I'm going to hurt myself. A guy who's 6 foot 1 and has been working down a coal mine really, really does bring something else to that work that, like, you know, there are reasons to have a big dude do that work sometimes. But also, he really loved it and he found it meaningful in a totally different way than the coal mine had been. But as you said, the conditions still sucked. You know, he was saying, and he was sort of more used to going on strike than a lot of the people that he worked with. And yet a lot of the women that he worked with, because the coal mines, literally all men, it was illegal for women to work down the mines. So that whole thing, he was like, okay, I'm ready to go on strike. But a lot of the other people were like, oh, this is really hard for me because, yeah, we don't want to walk away from our patients because they need us. The boss is the one screwing us over, not our patients.

Chris Duffy (12:24)

I also thought that a really moving piece of Kevin's story is that Kevin's experience of being in coal mine with a labor union involved a lot of really caring for other people, for the men that he was down there with in a dangerous situation, and knowing that you could trust people and that they had your back even if the bosses or the organization didn't. And that that actually was a directly transferable skill to caring for people, because it was, in some ways, the union was care work. It was just care work that they hadn't thought of in that way.

Sarah Jaffe (12:56)

Exactly. It was so striking, right, to talk to him and also to talk to Chris Kitchen, who is the head of the union, you know, and mostly his job, because actually they. They closed down the last coal mine in Britain between when I finished writing this book and when we're talking. And so there are literally no active members of the National Union of Mine Workers anymore. There are just retirees and people who have gone into other industries. And so when I talked to Chris Kitchen, you know, so much of his job was he's either fighting for retiree benefits and health care and things, you know, where. Where they have, you know, lung disease and things like that from going down in and breathing that air. And then he's going to commemorations and celebrations because there are a lot of horrible things happened over the years, over the centuries, really, of the British coal mining industry. And so it really struck me that, like this man who is, you know, the leader of a coal miners union, his Job is care. His job is fighting for these, you know, his members healthcare. And his job is commemorating. It's grieving, right? It's commemorating the disasters and the people that were lost. And that that was really true of the practice of solidarity, of being down the mine where it didn't matter if you like the guy next to you, if the wall starts to cave in, you're gonna grab him and get the hell out of there. And then when I thought about the sort of entire social world of the miners outside of the mine, that was built by the union. So the union had the miners welfare hall, which was where you would go have a beer after work with your buddies. And it was where you would have your wedding and it was where your children would be, you know, christened or baptized or I don't know, I'm Jewish. And like that, that space, right, that social space, all of that is what went away when the mines went away. Like what they miss is having a job that had some sense of purpose and having a decent wage that you could actually, you know, maybe send your kid to college so they didn't have to go down the mine to have a decent home and to have that kind of social life that was built in these places around the mines. Because the mines are not in the center of a big city, right? They're in rural Appalachia in the US they're in the north of Eng. The destruction of that entire way of life means these towns are just, you know, they're wiped out. And one of the things that to bring this back to care work. The first monument that I saw to Covid workers, right, was in Barnsley, which is the same place that the headquarters of the mine workers union was in the north of England. And I don't think that's an accident because they're used to commemorating workplace disasters. And Covid was, among other things, or workplace disaster.

Chris Duffy (15:34)

When I was teaching in an elementary school, it's never like I was like politically right wing, but I realized that I had some ideas about unions that ended up changing because I was working at a charter school without a union. And I believed I didn't choose the school because I just chose it because that's where I could get a job. But when I was working there, I believed, oh well, the union would just hold us back, it would just protect the worst teachers. It would make it so that. And over time I came to understand that, like, there's all these structural forces at play and there's all these reasons why this job is really hard. And there's all these reasons why these kids are struggling or not struggling. And having an organized piece where we all were in it together would actually be like, a dramatic thing, even if this particular building didn't need it. It's a broader thing than just that.

Sarah Jaffe (16:26)

Yeah. And it's so funny, right, because the story that we were told about teachers unions, right. I remember hearing that growing up, you know, oh, they just protect all the bad teachers and the rubber room myth and all that stuff, Right? And, like, the charter schools are going to be better because they make it easier to fire the teachers, you know? And again, I live in New Orleans, which, like, our school district has one directly operated public school, and it opened last year, but since Katrina, Otherwise, it's been 100% charters, and, like, the results haven't gotten any better. But what you have is just a lot of turnover. Instead, I worked in a nonprofit very briefly with kids who are like, 9, 10, 11 years old, and like, oh, my God, they're exhausting. They're amazing. They're exhausting. Teaching is hard. It gets better like most skills do over time, you know? And so you don't want to just, like, turn it over with, like, the new smart kid from this week who probably has zero patience with the kids. Like, you actually get better over time. And so protecting your ability to get better over time is really important. But also, there's places where you're having conversations with other teachers so you can say to them, like, hey, man, I had a really rough day this Tuesday. And, like, this happened with this kid, and I don't know what to do. Can you help me out? Like, those structures, too, are part of what the union does, Right?

Chris Duffy (17:36)

This may be a kind of question that you don't get that often, I think, which is, like, a person is listening to this or they've read your book and they're thinking about their own relationship to work differently to their job. What are three things that someone should do to start to reevaluate the way that they think about work in general and their own relationship to it?

Sarah Jaffe (18:01)

So the first thing I always say is, like, yeah, talk to people. What do your co workers think? How is everybody feeling about the job? Is it just you? It's probably not just you. Also, don't use your workplace email to do that. That's my number one bit of service journalism is if you're talking about organizing, don't do it on your work email or the work sl. Find out. Get people's phone numbers, use signal, use a protected App something else. That's my number one bit of service journalism that I always use. If you do in your organizing, don't do it where the boss can read it. But those conversations, they are the building blocks of everything that comes next, right? If you are thinking about organizing, you can also reach out to an organization, a union in your field, depending on what that is the rules are. For instance, you don't officially have to, if you are in the US be a member of a union in order to have your collective rights on the job protected. So you have the right under US labor law to organize and talk with and advocate for better conditions on the job with your coworkers, whether or not you're in a union. This is something that I jokingly call the Newsies rule from the Disney movie musical where he goes, if we strike, then we're a union. American labor law basically says that's true. So also keep that in mind. And then, yeah, think about what your demands are and then what, what leverage you have to meet those demands. Right. Because sometimes the thing that's true in a lot of these labors of love jobs is that the boss will say to you, there are 20 other people just outside the door who would love to have your job. And that might even be true, might be less true than they think, but we are in a somewhat tight labor market. But mostly still, the good jobs are still hard to find. Most of the jobs in the economy still are those waitressing jobs that I was doing. So, you know, what leverage do you have? Where is it that you can do a little something that makes your boss's life a little bit more difficult and convinces them to give you what you want? I talked to a young woman who, she worked for the Parks Department doing sort of construction on historic buildings that the Park Service maintains. She thought this was a great job. This is, you know, she's out working on roofs in, you know, 20 degree weather, which doesn't sound great to me, but she loves it and also think it's important. These questions of leverage are actually really important and interesting right now. It's not so simple as just like get all your buddies and walk off the job. Sometimes it's easier to stay on the job and you can sit down on the job. You can do a work to rule action, which is where you do your job exactly. To every possible last little rule in your job description, which turns out the boss never actually wants because they want you to be doing so much more. And you probably know how to do your job way better.

Chris Duffy (20:50)

We're going to take a quick break while I do another part of my job, which is to play you some ads. We'll be right back.

Ann (21:05)

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Sherrell Dorsey (22:22)

Hi, this is Sherrell Dorsey from the TED Tech Podcast and today I want to talk to you about Boost Mobile. So you're thinking about upgrading to the amazing new iPhone 17 Pro, the most powerful iPhone yet with 8 times optical zoom. But are you also thinking about the traffic on your way to the store or transferring all your data? Well, good news. When you order a new phone online with Boost Mobile, they'll send an expert to your home or work to deliver your brand new iPhone 17 Pro and get you all set up on Boost Mobile within minutes. No hassle. Visit boostmobile.com to get started. Delivery available for select devices purchased@boostmobile.com terms apply.

Chris Duffy (23:10)

Par Le tu francais, hablas espanol? Par le italiano? If you've used Babbel, you would Babbel's conversation based technique teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world. With lessons handcrafted by over 200 language experts and voiced by real native speakers, Babbel is like having a private tutor in your pocket. Start speaking with Babbel today. Get up to 55% off your Babbel subscription right now at babbel.com acast spelled B A B-B-E-L.com acast rules and restrictions may apply. And we are back. We're talking with Sarah Jaffe, author of Work Won't Love youe Back and from the Ashes. You talk in from the Ashes about grief, both personal, professional and societal. I think that a lot of us of a certain age feel like a form of grief or sadness or regret at not being able to have this kind of, like, collective experience that it seems like existed in the past. My dad worked for the Port Authority.

Sarah Jaffe (24:24)

Yeah.

Chris Duffy (24:25)

And I wouldn't say that he was ever like, you know what my passion is, is like helping manage toll collectors, like I think he would.

Sarah Jaffe (24:33)

But.

Chris Duffy (24:33)

But the idea that he could, like, come in and do a job and have a pension at the end of his career and he would know that he was taken care of and he took a lot of pride in doing a job well and being a good steward of public funds.

Ann (24:44)

Right.

Chris Duffy (24:44)

That for me and for certainly for people who are younger than me, the idea that you would be at One job for 30 years is so the exception and not the rule.

Sarah Jaffe (24:53)

We're living through this moment where, like, the public sector is just being demonized. And it's also really interesting because I think people are start realize that that's wrong. Part of what's happening and part of what the folks I've been talking to a lot at, like the Federal Unionist Network and others, they're really making a defense of the idea of the public good. You know, the idea that there are jobs at the Port Authority, that there are jobs at the Park Service, that there are jobs at the Army Corps of Engineers. I live in New Orleans. Again, I would like the Army Corps of Engineers to still be well staffed, please, because they keep us above water. But these are jobs that people do. You know, you take a pay cut when you work in the public sector. Right. You don't make as much money if you are an engineer with the Army Corps of Engineers as you could out in the private sector somewhere. But you do it because you believe in the idea of the public sector. You believe in the idea that these are things we should do for the public good. Again, to go back to those nurses in New Orleans at University Medical center, they are saying, we want to work in this kind of public hospital, this kind of open access hospital, because we believe everybody should be able to get care. And I'm in Barcelona right now. I'm at a writer's residency in this beautiful museum building. We're on like the second floor of this museum, and they gave us a tour of it earlier in the history of it. And there are pictures of snow, and they were like, oh, yeah, it doesn't snow here anymore. In the last 80 years, it has stopped snowing in the mountains in Barcelona. We have been productive. We have been so productive, we have sent thousands and thousands of people down holes in the ground to dig up black rocks to set on fire. And what it has gotten us is a rapidly warming planet, exhausted and a lot of people with horrible diseases that died young. And what would it look like to actually say that we want to run the world for the good of all of us, rather than the good of Elon Musk getting richer? The good of everybody who drives a car or takes a train or a boat in New York Port Authority or New Jersey or.

Chris Duffy (26:58)

Yeah, New York and New Jersey.

Sarah Jaffe (26:59)

New York. Yeah. New York and New Jersey. Right? So. Right. So everybody who takes the Staten Island Ferry, which is one of my favorite public institutions. I love the Staten Island Ferry. It's free and you can get a beer on it. You know, these things. Like, wouldn't that be amazing if we had more public transit that was free and you could buy a beer on it? Maybe not everybody needs to buy a beer on it, but still.

Chris Duffy (27:16)

So there's also this idea that we have tried, efficiency and productivity. I think a really new idea I got from. From the Ashes was the way that grief works in our personal life. How it's not linear. It comes in waves, it's circular, sometime incredibly intense, and then it goes away almost entirely, and then it comes back. And how that personal grief can actually be, in some ways, a roadmap for societal and communal ways of thinking about progress and of thinking about dealing with problems. That it doesn't have to just be this straight, incredibly efficient line from we are A, which is bad, and we are going to B, which is good. That that's not how it works.

Ann (28:02)

Yeah.

Chris Duffy (28:02)

For people who haven't read the book from the Ashes, and please tell me if I'm wrong, it's. It's both the story of you grieving your father who passed away, and it is a story of COVID 19 and deindustrialization and racism and societal failures. You're explicitly connecting the grief of losing a person you love with the grief of losing a community or a sense of self or career. How and why did you choose to do this?

Sarah Jaffe (28:26)

That my father died in 2018. So to look around at the stories that I was covering and the work that I was doing and realize, like, oh, there's grief everywhere. You know, I had lost people I lost my grandparents. I had certainly had my heart broken before, but losing a parent was something totally different. And it was so destabilizing and so transformative, and suddenly, everywhere I looked, there was grief. And I was like, oh. And also, like. Like, I was trying to find things to read because I am a nerd, and I wanted to get an A in grieving the way I want to get an A in everything. And so I was looking for, like, what do I read, what do I study, what do I. Whatever. And, like, nothing. Nothing really captured what I was feeling. And so on some level, I wrote the book that I needed to read. And also, you know, the way I deal with everything is to write about it. And this one has been harder to metabolize than most. It's been hard to talk about. Doing press for this book has been rough. It's been challenging to return to those feelings over and over again, you know, but they return for me anyway. You know, we just passed the anniversary of my father's death, and so, like, that month, I know it's coming for me, but it also comes for me at other moments. It comes for me in, you know, moments that I won't even know what's going on, and I'll sort of. And then I'm like, oh, oh, it's just, okay, that's what's happening. That's there. And that sense that it's not just an easy thing to get over, it suddenly made sense when I was doing stories on factory closures, and 2018 was Trump 1.0, and I was doing a lot of stories on factories closing. I had been in Indiana, I had been in Ohio. And actually the story is in the book where I was in Ohio. I was covering the closure of the Lordstown plant, which is kind of a famous auto plant, General Motors plan, just outside Youngstown, Ohio. And I was sitting in the office talking to Tim o', Hara, who was at the time the vice president of the union, and Dave Green, who was the president of the union, is now the regional director for the UAW in that area. He just comes in and flops on the couch and looks over at me and goes, you know how they say there's seven stages of grieving? Well, we can't go through them because we don't know we're stuck in the middle. And I was like, huh, Right? This is a grief story, except it's a sort of disenfranchised. Grief is one of the terms for things like that, right? Where you can't really go through it because it wasn't clear what was actually gonna happen to the factory. It has closed now since some of the workers are now working for a battery plant in the area. Some of the workers got scattered all over the country. But at the time they didn't know. It was still early and they were still trying to fight to keep it open and. Yeah, to realize, like, oh, I'm already writing grief stories. I'm writing stories of immigration and talking to people about what they leave behind. You know, then 2020 hits and we get Covid and then we get the George Floyd uprising and we just get this double whammy of talking about grief in public, right? And whenever we say Black Lives Matter and we say, you know, say their names, we're talking about grieving. We're talking about, you know, that George Floyd should still be here, that Breonna Taylor should still be here. There was this moment, right, when Joe Biden got elected and he sort of talked about his personal grief. And I think that was meaningful for people. That was part of the reason people voted for him, you know, and then they had sort of one commemoration for Covid and then it was quickly like, back to normal. Back to normal. Back to normal.

Ann (31:54)

Right.

Sarah Jaffe (31:55)

When I was working on the book, I talked to sort of therapists and clinicians and practitioners about grief and about how they deal with it and how they help people deal with it. And so these are, you know, where I sort of learn these terms. And disenfranchised grief is. Is again a grief that can't be acknowledged, a grief that isn't recognized. People are carrying around a lot of unacknowledged pain and that comes out, if we're lucky, it comes out in ways that are just sort of messy. If we're really not lucky, it gets toxic and it can destroy your relationships, it can destroy your. Your grip on reality. It can destroy all sorts of things. It can destroy your health. Right? It's. It was so shocking to me how physical grieving was talking to clinicians and people. It was like, yeah, like, I see people with like flare ups of autoimmune conditions when they're grieving. Like all of these things happen and we just have no place for it for the most part in sort of late capitalist society.

Ann (32:52)

Right.

Sarah Jaffe (32:53)

We just sort of are supposed to get back to work.

Chris Duffy (32:57)

We're going to take another quick break and then we'll be back. Dreaming of getting the all new iPhone 17 Pro, designed to be the most powerful iPhone ever.

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Oh actually they will have to get up and open the door.

Sarah Jaffe (33:22)

Oh right.

Chris Duffy (33:23)

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Sarah Jaffe (34:13)

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Chris Duffy (35:22)

And we are back. You say in the book that grief does not happen on the clock of capitalism. That that's not how it works. You're talking about how grief is not work and you say that so just to read it. Many languages have a middle voice which is less concerned with agency. In the middle. The subject does not do or have something done to them. Neither can they simply opt out from or reverse the action of which they are a part. They undergo change while engaged in interactive processes from which they cannot simply withdraw. They are not and cannot be exterior to the process. And then you say you are grieving, but grieving is also doing you. That really hit me in the gut. Gut. It is both you Doing it and it doing you. And it is active and passive. And both that messiness of grief, I think, is what a lot of people really struggle with, and that struggle with not being able to articulate.

Sarah Jaffe (36:11)

I joked about wanting to get an A in grieving, but, like, it's really true. Like, I was like, I'm going to be good at this. I'm going to go to therapy, I'm going to do the thing, I'm going to get over it in record time and I'm going to be good at grieving. And like, oh, no, that's not how that works. That is so not how that works. In fact, the more you try to do that, the more. Or you're gonna screw yourself up, I think. Or I certainly did anyway, to be willing to allow it to happen on the clock that it happens at it was easier for me in a way because I work from home, I'm freelance. I had plenty of work I had to do, but I could kind of do it on my own time. So if in the middle of the day I needed to take a break and just cry for an hour, I could go do that. And that sense of like some degree of freedom that I had, which most people don't have, right. If you're, you're going to work at the GM factory and you gotta, you know, do the same thing all day long and you're, you know, lifting up the thing and drilling a hole or putting a screw in or attaching a door or attaching a steering wheel or any number of things you might be doing on an assembly line. You just gotta do that. And you can't pause the line so that you can cry. And you can maybe cry while you're attaching the steering wheels, but you might screw it up. So you probably don't wanna do that. And also you probably don't want everybody to watch you while you cry, while you try to attach a steering wheel on the assembly while the cars are going by. You, you know, that middle voice. It was from a piece that was sent to me by the author Namuale Serpell, who wrote this beautiful book, the Furrows, about Grief. It's a novel. It's incredible. And the piece that talked about it was talking about the concept of drift. And I interviewed Namwale Serpel for a book forum and we were talking about grief. And it made me think about a lot of things that aren't work in that way. They aren't sort of volitional in that same way. But like, I also Think that love is kind of like this. It happens in the middle voice. You know, I would sort of think, like, I have to be actively doing things all the time. And one of the things that grief sort of taught me is that I don't become unlovable because I need things for a while from people, and I'm not always capable of immediately reciprocating. Like, when my father died, the people who knew what to say and what to do were people who had lost a parent. And they reached out to me and they're like, I heard your father died. I'm sorry. You know, some people would be like, kind of gallows humor about it and say, welcome to the dead dads club. But it was people who had already been there, and so sort of, by definition, they didn't need me to do it back. So the only way that I could reciprocate was to reciprocate to other people. So that when I had friends in the months, weeks, years after my father died who lost somebody. I'm really annoying with this, with people in my life, actually. I'm like, you know, not to be relentlessly on brand, but you're grieving, honey, and not just deaths, but also, you lost a job. Also you moved across an ocean. Also, you had a really bad breakup. You got divorced. I will be that person who's just like, it's grief. And here's what you. You will probably need at some point. And, you know, what can I do? But also asking what I can do is kind of not helpful because you probably don't know what I can do. So I'm gonna offer. I'm gonna make you breakfast. I'm gonna make you cookies. I'm gonna come over and drag you out of the house and make you go for a walk. You know, I'm just gonna text and be like, here's a very silly meme that made me laugh. Here is a picture of a cute dog.

Chris Duffy (39:35)

I wanna read two quotes from the book that are from really different parts. This first one is. Is from towards the end. This is why I think I cannot stomach the grief platitudes industry. Grief is not joyful or peaceful. It is a war inside me. It is an alien chewing its way out. It is a tornado somewhere beneath my lungs. It is breaking me. And somehow people can't see. I want them to see. And I am terrified they will see. And I am both of these things at the same time being pulled in opposite directions. Like there's a team of horses attached to each end. Except Somehow, unbelievably, I am stronger than the teams of horses, and I do not get torn apart apart. That is such a unbelievably accurate description of grief to me, and yet so incredibly specific. And that's the personal side of grief. Yeah. And then I just want to pair it with something you wrote at the beginning of the book, which is you say, I've covered social movements for the better part of two decades, and one thing that the ones that stuck had in common was that they provided solidarity in a material way. They offered care that was physical, food, a place to sleep, masks and hand sanitizer. During COVID 19, they offered life even when protesting a death. We lack a word in English for this kind of life. Making, like, the missing middle voice. I've struggled in writing this book with the need for such a word, one that encapsulates the kind of world I want to live in and the way I want to live in it. It does not exist, I think, because we are not there yet. And to me, those two quotes really capture so much of the beauty of this book and also the thread that I had never seen someone else draw between that intense personal suffering and the way that we can find a path forward together, that it isn't something you solve on your own, that it is actually something you solve in community.

Sarah Jaffe (41:20)

I would not have gotten through the last six, seven years without the people who love me. And, like, I was very bad at asking for help. I'm still pretty bad at asking for help, but I'm getting better. Last talk that I did for it in public, my interlocutor was somebody who loves me very much and who literally held my hand through the conversation, those moments where I had to realize that, like, this is part of it, that one of those two people who squished me between them in the back of the car, you know, I was apologizing for being a mess and needing to sleep on her couch. And she was just like, that's what friends are for. And I hear that in her voice still. Whenever I'm sort of being difficult to myself, it's just like, oh, right. This is like, what we build these relationships for is to be there. And, you know, I am honored when those people call on me in those moments, too, you know, that I want to be able to show up as much as they showed up for me, and I want to be able to pay them that outward to new people who haven't had to show up for me that way yet. And that's what makes Living in this screwed up world worth doing. And that's also what gives us the. The energy and the power not only to change it, but to believe we can change it. To believe that actually we're better than the worst things that we're told about each other. You know, one of those. The federal workers that I was talking to, Colin Smalley with the Army Corps of Engineers, and you know, he was saying, like, that these attacks on the federal workforce are attacks on the entire idea that we should care about each other as humans. And the way that we have organized that care in this world is through government. And, like, it's a little bit more complicated than that, obviously. But, like, what would it be like again, to organize a world around making sure everybody is cared for in that way? And not just because those people have like, like, worked really hard at building up good personal social networks, but because we all deserve it. And we deserve that time off when we need it, and we deserve to rest when we need it, and we deserve to be fed when we don't have the energy to cook for ourselves. You know, we deserve things as basic as a roof over our head. Like, just these basic, basic things that, like, we can do as a world, as a society. We can make sure that everybody is cared for.

Chris Duffy (43:53)

Anyone who has been through grief and through suffering understands that one of the things that it does, and you say this explicitly, is that it just erodes your ability to take bullshit. You have zero capacity for, like, the way things are for people saying, like, what's going on? Nothing much. You can't do that.

Sarah Jaffe (44:12)

Absolutely. The line that gets repeated all the time and is credited alternately to Slavo Zizek and Frederick Jameson, Is that right? It's easier to imagine the end of the world than to imagine the end of capitalism. And the Jewish tradition teaches that every life is a world, right? So the end of every life is a whole world ending. And so when you have to imagine the end of your personal world, somebody that close to you, that is gone, that you can't sort of just go through the world in the same way. At first you can't imagine anything, but then slowly it's like, oh, well, I have to imagine everything anew anyway. And maybe in that space there is a possibility of imagining it better.

Chris Duffy (44:57)

Sarah Jaffe, thank you so much for being on the show.

Sarah Jaffe (44:59)

Thank you. It's been great.

Chris Duffy (45:04)

That is it for this episode of how to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to today's guest, Sarah Jaffe. You can find more about her work her writing and all of her books@saraljaffe.com that's S A R A H L J A F-F E.com I am your host Chris Duffy and you can find more from me, including my weekly newsletter and other projects@chrisduffycomedy.com how to be a Better Human is put together by a team who I love working with and who I think are more mindful than most about finding life outside of work as well. On the TED side we've got Daniela Ballarezzo, Banban Chang, Michelle Quint, Chloe Shasha, Brooks, Van Valentina Bohanini, Lainey Lot, Tanzika, Singma Nivong, Antonia Le and Joseph de Bruyne. This episode was fact checked by Julia Dickerson and Matteus Salas who in work and in life value the facts. On the PRX side, they grieve the audio bites that could not be salvaged while moving forward into the crystal clear recordings of the Morgan Flannery, Norgill, Patrick Grant and Jocelyn Gonzales. Thanks again to you for listening. You are a crucial ingredient in this podcast. Share this episode with a person in your life who makes your life outside of work meaningful. We will be back next week with even more how to Be a Better Human. Until then, take care and thanks again for listening.

Sherrell Dorsey (46:27)

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Sarah Jaffe (47:15)

Guys, thanks for helping me carry my Christmas tree.

Chris Duffy (47:17)

Zoe, this thing weighs a ton. Drew Ski, lift with your legs man. Santa.

Sarah Jaffe (47:21)

Santa, did you get my letter?

Chris Duffy (47:22)

He's talking to you, Bridges. I'm not.

Sarah Jaffe (47:25)

Of course he did.

Chris Duffy (47:26)

Right, Santa, you know my elf Drew Ski here.

Sarah Jaffe (47:29)

He handles the nice list.

Chris Duffy (47:30)

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Sarah Jaffe (47:40)

I'm Mrs. Claus's much younger sister and AT T Mobile, there's no trade in needed when you switch so you can.

Chris Duffy (47:46)

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Sarah Jaffe (47:48)

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Chris Duffy (47:52)

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